1 2 3 4 5 6 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 7 Special Session 8 and 9 Regular Session of November 13, 2007 (Reconvened) 10 Wednesday, November 14, 2007 11 11:30 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X November 14, 2007 2 PAGE 1.1 Canvass the Official Election Results for the 3 2007 November General Constitutional Amendment Election as per TEC §67 3 4 1.2 Open proposals received in response to Request 5 for proposals for 2008 Kerr County Employees Health Benefits Plan and take appropriate action 6 to refer such proposals to Kerr County Health benefits and insurance consultant for review and 7 evaluation and further negotiations with proposers 5 8 --- Special meeting adjourned 19 9 (Reconvened from Regular Meeting of Nov. 13, 2007) 10 1.23 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to receive and approve bids for RFQ for planning 11 services at HCYEC; review recommendation from review committee and award contract for planning 12 services 20 13 1.26 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve employee voluntary supplemental insurance 14 programs or plans with guaranteed issue and County-approved electronic enrollment features, 15 and funded through employee payroll deduction; authorize County Judge to sign agreement for same 23 16 --- Regular meeting adjourned 61 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Wednesday, November 14, 2007, at approximately 2 11:55 a.m., a special meeting of the Kerr County 3 Commissioners Court was held in the Commissioners' Courtroom, 4 Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and the following 5 proceedings were had in open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let me call to order this 8 special Commissioners Court meeting posted and scheduled for 9 this date and time, Wednesday, November the 14th, 2007, at 10 11:30 a.m. It's a bit past that now because of attendance at 11 a service for one of our colleagues who passed away. The 12 first item on the agenda is to canvass the official election 13 results for the 2007 November General Constitutional 14 Amendment Election, as per Texas Election Code Section 67. 15 Okay. Pursuant to the report furnished to me by the County 16 Clerk for the Constitutional Amendment Election held on 17 November the 6th, 2007, canvass of votes is as follows: The 18 total number of voters was 3,176. Proposition 1: For, 19 2,514 -- should I repeat the early and the -- 20 MS. PIEPER: Just -- just in the total column. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. I'm giving totals for 22 both the early and -- and election day voting. 23 Proposition 1: For, 2,514; Against, 562. 24 Proposition 2: For, 1,968; Against, 1,151. 25 Proposition 3: For, 2,523; Against, 573. 11-14-07 4 1 Proposition 4: For, 1,816; Against, 1,269. 2 Proposition 5: For, 2,245; Against, 816. 3 Proposition 6: For, 2,363; Against, 763. 4 Proposition 7: For, 2,800; Against, 332. 5 Proposition 8: For, 2,400; Against, 649. 6 Proposition 9: For, 2,639; Against, 465. 7 Proposition 10: For, 2,649; Against, 390. 8 Proposition 11: For, 2,888; Against, 204. 9 Proposition 12: For, 1,521; Against, 1,566. 10 Proposition 13: For, 2,878; Against, 243. 11 Proposition 14: For, 2,425; Against, 697. 12 Proposition 15: For, 1,661; Against, 1,451. 13 Proposition 16: For, 1,835; Against, 1,262. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move we do whatever we're 15 supposed to do. What is that? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the law says that we're 17 supposed to approve the canvass and certify it as official. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly what I was 19 going to say. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's your motion? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second. 11-14-07 5 1 Discussion or questions on the motion? All in favor of the 2 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll move 7 to Item 2, and that is open proposals received in response to 8 Request for Proposals for 2008 Kerr County Employee Health 9 Benefits Plan and take appropriate action to refer such 10 proposals to Kerr County health benefits and insurance 11 consultant for review and evaluation and further 12 negotiation -- negotiations with proposers. The proposals 13 that were submitted are all here on the table. Those that 14 are there all were received prior to 11 o'clock this morning, 15 which is the deadline date, I think the last one of which 16 came in, I believe, at 10:56 and was deposited with the 17 Auditor's office in accordance with the notice posted on -- 18 on the Commissioners Court and County Judge's front door. 19 The boxes were unsealed just a moment ago, but not opened; 20 the contents were not removed. So as to facilitate being 21 able to go forward and see who we got proposals from, just to 22 identify the proposers, want to start handing them up here 23 one by one? 24 MR. LOONEY: Do you want me to take it out of the 25 box, or do you want the box? 11-14-07 6 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Whatever will let me identify them, 2 I suppose. Okay. The first proposal is from Insurance 3 Management Services. Agent identified as Patrick Sanders. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where are they located, 5 Judge? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay. Amarillo, Texas. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Like you, that was not a familiar 9 name to me. Let me put that back in the box. The second 10 one -- 11 MR. LOONEY: Are you going to keep the original? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 13 MR. LOONEY: You're going to keep the original? 14 THE CLERK: I get that. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The second one was received in 16 letter form from Texas Association of Counties. The letter 17 of notification, in essence, that they are declining -- they 18 are declining to submit a proposal, but want us to be aware 19 of their availability, their pool that they have in the 20 future. The next one is from Bryan Finley and Associates; 21 that would be the agent. And I'm trying to see where the -- 22 apparently, there are -- there's a declination letter from 23 Cigna, a declination from Aetna, declination from United 24 Health Care, a declination from Guardian, declination e-mail 25 with -- looks like Texas Association of Counties. 11-14-07 7 1 Apparently, there is a proposal submitted by Met Life for the 2 life and AD&D coverage. No bid for the HRA health 3 reimbursement accounts. With regard to the cafeteria plan 4 administration -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You need to work with your 6 industry to make this simpler. 7 MR. LOONEY: Believe me. Actually, the no bid 8 makes it pretty simple. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I forgot what all they were 10 bidding on. 11 MR. LOONEY: I don't know. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sounds like they're bidding on 13 supplemental stuff. 14 MR. LOONEY: Yeah. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not having much luck figuring 16 out -- 17 MR. LOONEY: I think under each tab probably is -- 18 normally what they'll do is just, if there is a bid -- I 19 think I looked; I think there was a tab -- when I picked it 20 up, I think there was a Tab 6 or 7 that had a quote from 21 TASC. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's what it shows, Total 23 Administrative Services Corporation. Appears to be with the 24 cafeteria plan. 25 MR. LOONEY: Okay. 11-14-07 8 1 JUDGE TINLEY: But then there's a whole bunch of 2 data behind it that's incomprehensible to me. If we go to 3 Tab 8, which is the prescription benefit management, it shows 4 no bid. Tab 9 is online services, proposing the InRoll -- 5 I-n, capital R-o-l-l -- online enrollment system. I'm not 6 familiar with that, except that that's the proposal. 10 is 7 Air Evac Life Team. I don't know how that got in the mix, 8 but that's what's there with that one. The next one is from 9 Group and Pension Administrators, Inc., out of -- looks like 10 Dallas. Agent is Wallace and Associates. That's a bid for 11 the third-party administrator, and not sure who they've got 12 included for stop loss. 13 MR. LOONEY: Very tightly bound. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: The next one is submitted by Entrust 15 out of Houston, Texas. Based upon prior activity, I can only 16 assume this deals with both the third-party administration, 17 and probably -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Based on what? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Prior activity in the previous bids. 20 Third-party administrator, and also, I'm sure, had some stop 21 loss insurance included. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That one's big enough to use as 23 an anchor. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. The next one is from Fara, 25 F-a-r-a, Benefit Services, Inc., out of Mandeville, 11-14-07 9 1 Louisiana. 2 MR. LOONEY: Previously near where Rita hit. 3 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 4 MR. LOONEY: They had an interesting experience 5 with Rita. It hit their primary office in Louisiana, and 6 within 48 hours, they were functioning in the backup offices. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: When Katrina hit? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rita. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Rita, okay. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably good insurance. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm assuming this is third-party 12 administration as well as stop loss. Next one is from 13 Fiserv, F-i-s-e-r-v, Health. Broker appears to be Wallace 14 and Associates, third-party administration, and I assume 15 there's some quotes in there on stop loss. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jon, are those blue and 17 gold? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, blue and gold. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sure appears that way. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Might be a royal -- or, I mean, 21 it's not royal blue. It's like a navy blue, and that causes 22 lots of problems around here. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, it does. Yes, it does. 24 We may have to get him in here. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Next one is submitted by Wallace and 11-14-07 10 1 Associates, and there's a letter in here from Verity National 2 referring to a prior submission -- or it appears to be a 3 prior submission with some revised numbers. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The County Attorney is saying 5 that may not be -- can't do that one. 6 MR. EMERSON: If they're referring to the prior 7 submission, you can't take it, because y'all rejected all 8 those bids and all that information that was attached to 9 them. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oops. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I -- I may not be reading this 12 correctly. The paragraph reads, "The purpose of this 13 letter" -- and it's addressed to Don Wallace from Verity 14 National -- "is to confirm that Verity National Group's 15 revised figures of 10-7-2007, copy attached, will stand as 16 our final numbers for the second RFP round for Kerr County 17 due tomorrow in Gary Looney's office." And it looks like 18 they've got the -- the spreadsheet portion. 19 MR. LOONEY: There's a whole series of documents 20 that have to be signed by them to qualify as a bid process. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we accept it, then you can 22 tell us. 23 MR. LOONEY: Right. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: And there's some miscellaneous 25 communications in here from Wallace, and then a proposal from 11-14-07 11 1 Colonial Supplemental, it appears. 2 MR. LOONEY: That's the only copy. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hmm? 4 MR. LOONEY: That's the only copy, unless there's 5 multiple copies inside. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, just one copy. 8 THE CLERK: I can get it copied and get it to you 9 after court. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: In connection with the agenda 11 item -- 12 MR. LOONEY: I think that's all. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: -- which speaks to appropriate 14 action to refer the proposals to Kerr County health benefit 15 and insurance consultant for review and evaluation and 16 further negotiation with proposers, the Local Government Code 17 Section 262.30 authorizes the county or its agent -- in this 18 case, Mr. Looney -- to conduct discussions with responsible 19 offerors who submitted proposals, if those are determined to 20 be reasonably susceptible to being ultimately selected for 21 award, with the caveat that each such offeror shall be 22 accorded equal opportunity for discussion and revision of 23 each of their proposals for the purpose of obtaining the best 24 and final offers, and the further requirement that each 25 offeror shall be treated fairly in respect to all other 11-14-07 12 1 qualified offerors, and that any and all such negotiations 2 with such offerors must be conducted in accordance with state 3 and federal guidelines. And with regard to any motion that's 4 made to refer these matters for further negotiations with the 5 offerors, I would strongly recommend, upon the advice of the 6 County Attorney, that that motion include those provisos that 7 I just outlined and -- and read into the record from the 8 County Attorney. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Because that's essentially what 11 Section 262.30 of the Local Government Code provides in 12 connection with further negotiations. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why wouldn't you just refer 14 it to Mr. Looney and let him do his job? 15 MR. EMERSON: 262.30 says that Mr. Looney cannot 16 negotiate further on behalf of the county unless the Court 17 adopts the rules for negotiations. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 19 MR. EMERSON: That's the guidelines provided in the 20 code. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. And that's cool; I 22 understand that. One of those letters that the Judge briefly 23 read a paragraph out of said this is our final offer for the 24 -- or our final numbers for the meeting with you tomorrow. 25 Was that the final number, or will they have another run at 11-14-07 13 1 it? I'm just curious about this whole system. 2 MR. LOONEY: Not having read it, you know, I'm not 3 sure, but if they said that this is our final offer, we have 4 to assume that that's what they're doing, is giving us their 5 final number in their bid. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But you do have the door 7 open. 8 MR. LOONEY: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In case they say, "Oops, we 10 didn't mean that." 11 MR. LOONEY: Right. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And if you -- excuse me, I'm sorry. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They can make another run at 14 it. 15 MR. LOONEY: Yeah. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: And if you -- if you contact any one 17 of them to submit anything better than what they've 18 submitted, you will contact every one of them -- 19 MR. LOONEY: In this situation -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that is being potentially capable 21 of receiving award? 22 MR. LOONEY: In this situation, we're going to, so 23 that it'll be perceived as a fair offering. Actually, I 24 think the regulation says that you're only required to pick 25 the top three. But -- you know, there's seven proposals. I 11-14-07 14 1 think probably one of them may or may not qualify, but of the 2 seven, we'll most likely give them all the opportunity for a 3 best and final offer, and we'll have to do it very quickly. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: But the rules -- proposed rules to 5 be adopted by the Court in conducting those negotiations that 6 I just read into the record, that's certainly not a problem, 7 and something that you're totally willing to comply with? 8 MR. LOONEY: It's our standard operating procedure. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The last time there was the 11 issue, because it went out so early, about a lot of 12 information not being available. And I think this time, all 13 that information was going to be available? 14 MR. LOONEY: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Was that -- how long ago were 16 they given that information, or made available -- 17 MR. LOONEY: Because of the information that is 18 personal and covered under the HIPAA regulations, we didn't 19 do a blanket submission of that information to the -- the 20 general market. Now that we know who the players are going 21 to be, we'll get that information to them this afternoon. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that will likely -- 23 MR. LOONEY: That will give us a fixed number. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But that new 25 information will likely necessitate the bids being modified 11-14-07 15 1 somewhat? 2 MR. LOONEY: I'm -- there will be some possible 3 modification in all of them. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because of that new 5 information? 6 MR. LOONEY: Yeah. Part of the reason we didn't, 7 too, Commissioner, is because of the -- you know, the fact 8 that we had a gentleman that was obviously in the hospital at 9 a high risk, and we tried to wait as long as we could to be 10 able to submit that information, 'cause it does impact the 11 underwriting significantly when you have a loss of that size. 12 Now that we'll make everyone aware of that unfortunate 13 incident, then they will probably most likely try to correct 14 it in some way, some of the numbers. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The earlier -- I think it was a 16 memo from the County Attorney referencing some insurance -- 17 some state law, something about the -- if you didn't accept 18 the low bid, you had to have reasons why you didn't accept 19 the lower bid? Am I remembering something correctly? 20 MR. EMERSON: Well, it has to be justified. But I 21 think the statute says that the low bidder has an opportunity 22 to respond or represent themselves, is the way it's worded. 23 MR. LOONEY: The -- the bids stat says also that 24 when I make the recommendation, I make it for what I think is 25 in the best interest of the county. 11-14-07 16 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But it seems that the 2 other thing I read was that if that recommendation is not the 3 low bid, you have to explain why it's not the -- why you 4 accepted that, and why you're not going to the low bid. 5 MR. LOONEY: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, that's what it says. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. Really, the way I read 8 it was that you had to accept the low bid. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, unless -- 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Unless, you know -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- we were presented -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Did the extra mile on it. 13 MR. LOONEY: Actually, Commissioner, I don't think 14 -- I think it says what's best -- best interest. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 16 MR. LOONEY: That you reserve the right to reject 17 or accept any bid that you feel is in the best interest of 18 the county. Is that essentially what it says? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What it says -- 20 MR. EMERSON: Well, there's -- go ahead. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What it says is 262.027, 22 Subparagraph C. A contract may not be awarded to a bidder 23 who is not the lowest dollar bidder meeting specifications 24 unless, before the award, each lower bidder is given notice 25 of the proposed award and is given an opportunity to appear 11-14-07 17 1 before the Commissioners Court and present evidence 2 concerning the lower bidder's responsibility. Is that the 3 section we're talking about? 4 MR. LOONEY: That -- I believe that section -- I 5 believe there's another section in that 262 code that applies 6 directly to insurance purchases, and I'm not -- I think that 7 section applies to other purchases. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I don't see anything 9 that applies directly to insurance in this. 10 MR. EMERSON: .030. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: After -- after that particular 12 section that deals more with insurance. 13 MR. EMERSON: .030 is in there, but .030 references 14 back to .027, okay? But it also refers to the fact that 15 there's two prongs to it under insurance. It's not just the 16 lowest price; it's the best interest of the county or the 17 local government. So, there's two prongs to it. But you 18 still have to -- if you don't go with the low bidder, you 19 still have to give them an opportunity to show -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: To make a pitch. 21 MR. EMERSON: Sure. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, okay. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you want this in the 25 record, too, in the motion? Is that what you want? 11-14-07 18 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, what I'm suggesting is that 2 any motion that -- that refers them for further negotiations 3 do so under these rules that have already been read into the 4 record, and be those rules -- be the rules as adopted by the 5 Court for those negotiations. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would offer a motion that 7 says Kerr County Commissioners Court refers all proposals 8 received this date for the 2008 Kerr County employees' health 9 benefits plan to Alamo -- 10 MR. LOONEY: Personally, Gary Looney, or Alamo 11 Insurance Group. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Alamo Insurance Group, care 13 of Mr. Gary Looney, for review, evaluation and further 14 negotiations, so long as all of the rules regarding such 15 review, which have been read into the record, are adhered to. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: And those are the rules -- or are 17 deemed to be rules adopted by the Court. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, which were rules 19 adopted by this Court. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I have a motion. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: And a second. Question or 23 discussion on that motion? All in favor of the motion, 24 signify by raising your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11-14-07 19 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Okay, that's 4 got it. Any further business to come before the Court in 5 connection with the special Commissioners Court meeting which 6 was posted for Wednesday, November 14th, '07, at 11:30 a.m.? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'd like to give a report. 8 Buzzie's is open. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Thank you, sir. Any other -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're welcome. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll give a report on my 12 appearance before the Kerrville Independent School District 13 last night with respect to the Juvenile Detention Center, if 14 you wish to hear it. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: We can hear it now, or I'm going to 16 -- I'm going to reconvene the meeting of yesterday, which we 17 recessed for today. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't we do it then. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Being no further business in 20 connection with the special Commissioners Court agenda posted 21 for today at 11:30, I will adjourn that meeting, and I will 22 reconvene the regular Commissioners Court meeting which was 23 originally convened Tuesday, November 13th, 2007, at 8 a.m., 24 and adjourned sometime approximately 11:30 a.m. for further 25 action on items on that agenda that may be remaining. The 11-14-07 20 1 only item that -- that I recall not being resolved that we 2 might be able to -- actually, there were a couple of them. 3 One was dealing with the -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 23. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the bids that we received in 6 response to an RFQ for planning services at the Hill Country 7 Youth Exhibit Center, and authorizing the review -- 8 recommendation from the review committee and the awarding of 9 the contract. Since those bids were received, has there been 10 an opportunity to review and evaluate those bids? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner Oehler and I met 12 and looked at them briefly -- not briefly; we looked at the 13 two bids, and our recommendation is that we go with Peter 14 Lewis Architects of Kerrville. And we'll meet with them -- 15 full committee will meet with them and go over, make sure we 16 can come to an agreement on the services, which I think we 17 shall. And I think that's the process we have to do, 18 correct? 'Cause, I mean, we didn't really -- in the bid, 19 they had some numbers in there, but we didn't really talk 20 price at that point too much. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So, are you suggesting that 22 we don't want to make an award at this time until after 23 you've had a chance to have further discussions with them? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we have to -- don't we 25 have to rank them or say our first choice is Peter Lewis? 11-14-07 21 1 And if we can't come to an agreement, we go to the second 2 one, and at that point, I suspect my recommendation at that 3 point would be to rebid it, because the second proposal is 4 R.H.A. They didn't have anything in their package that shows 5 that they've done any kind of work of that particular nature. 6 They've done a lot of work, more in school districts, 7 municipalities, things of that nature, but nothing with the 8 ag-related at all, and that was a bit of a concern to 9 Commissioner Oehler and myself. And also, their proposal was 10 pretty much generic. There was only basically -- looked like 11 they changed two or three sentences in their cover letter, 12 and it's the same booklet that goes out to anyone else that 13 they're interested in working with. So, I mean, I just -- 14 they don't seem like they're really qualified for what we're 15 looking for. They're a very qualified firm; they do a lot of 16 work, evidently, but it's not our niche, it doesn't appear to 17 Commissioner Oehler and myself. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Commissioner, is this -- is 19 this the first step in design and build services? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is just design. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Design only. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Design only. Design only, and 23 prepare enough information so -- so that we can go forward 24 with grants or things of that nature. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Cost estimates. 11-14-07 22 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Cost estimates. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And locating the buildings on 3 the property and the sizes and -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Site plan type work. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Site plan and evaluation, 6 basically. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all. There's no -- 8 yeah. If we get to the next step, it would have to be rebid 9 for construction services. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. This is -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And architect, probably, or 12 engineer at that time. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: So what is your motion, then? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My motion is that we accept the 15 -- I guess accept -- award the proposal to Peter Lewis 16 Architects. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Assuming that -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Assuming we can negotiate final 19 terms with them. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 23 indicated. Question or discussion on the motion? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we will bring back the 25 contract to the Court prior to -- I mean, for final action. 11-14-07 23 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Further discussion? All in favor of 2 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. The only other item 7 remaining, to my knowledge, is item 26. Consider, discuss, 8 and take appropriate action to approve Kerr County employee 9 voluntary supplemental insurance programs or plans with 10 guaranteed issue and County-approved electronic enrollment 11 features, and funded through employee payroll deduction, and 12 authorize County Judge to sign agreement for same. 13 Mr. Looney, we -- we got off in a -- in a storm on this, so 14 to speak, yesterday. And give us the short course of what 15 we've got here, please. 16 MR. LOONEY: Okay. I apologize for not having been 17 here yesterday. I got waylaid at the airport in San Antonio 18 by one of your fellow county authorities. But let me -- if I 19 may, let me go back and -- and start at the beginning so that 20 you'll understand how we got to where we are today. In the 21 -- in the beginning, there was dirt. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There was Looney. 23 MR. LOONEY: Yeah. In the beginning -- in the 24 beginning, a little over three years ago, y'all did an RFQ 25 for a consultant, and I responded to that RFQ. And when I 11-14-07 24 1 responded to it, I gave an agreement to the Court, or 2 presented it, to that bid specification, a very itemized list 3 of items that would be covered under my contract as far as 4 consulting was concerned, and there was a fee associated with 5 that. That contract then was not accepted. The contract 6 then was asked to be changed, and the contract was asked to 7 be changed to remove anything that had to do with voluntary 8 insurance programs for the county. My obligation to the 9 county as a consultant specifically identified the medical 10 plan and the organization. The reason, I believe, at that 11 time was -- was because your Treasurer essentially was 12 managing that process between voluntary programs and that 13 solicitation and that salary reduction or salary deduction 14 programs. And that's -- that's where we were at that point 15 in time. 16 Times changed. When Ms. Hyde came into the 17 process, she started evolving into a situation where her time 18 frame was spent -- a lot of hours -- on the management of 19 that process, of the verification of applications, 20 verification of all data that was being provided through the 21 various and sundry voluntary programs. So, she asked that I 22 come up and visit with her and go over the process to see 23 what might be able to help her as far as those time frames 24 were concerned. I said, well, first of all, you're going 25 through an application process, and it's a -- it's a 11-14-07 25 1 fundamental insurance process. Somebody's going to -- 2 someone that you've approved to have a salary deduction, 3 they're going through an application process, and they're 4 either accepted or rejected, and then they come back to you 5 with certification that they've either been accepted or 6 rejected, and then you set up a payroll deduction. And 7 you're responsible for tracking the premium dollars and 8 payment for that process through the payroll deduction 9 process. 10 The problems that we discussed had to do with 11 deductions being made where policies were not being issued. 12 There were deductions that should have been made for policies 13 that had been issued, so this was generating as a 14 responsibility to the County; you were generating a 15 liability, because you were in some ways accepting 16 applications or paying premiums to insurance companies 17 without verification that contracts were in force and 18 contracts were in place. I said, well, the management 19 technique nowadays for that process is to use a web-based 20 internet or intranet system to be able to manage the data 21 properly, so it's always up-to-date and that it is always 22 current, and the policies that you generate out of there -- 23 or that you offer out of there are voluntary insurance 24 products that have guaranteed issue type of restrictions, and 25 they can be enrolled online without having to go through a 11-14-07 26 1 wet signature application process. And that was the -- what 2 we discussed. 3 I said, well, do we have any of those products? At 4 that point that we took it, Alamo Insurance Group started 5 doing due diligence on the products that were out on the 6 market that potentially could offer those products on the 7 guaranteed issue through the internet enrollment process. 8 Alamo Insurance Group, as such, is an insurance agency. I am 9 the senior vice president of the agency, but I have no 10 ownership in the agency. I'm a paid worker. I'm not paid on 11 a commission basis. However, there are commissions 12 associated with voluntary insurance products; there's no 13 question about that. So, the question that I think you asked 14 yesterday was that, as a consultant, you know, am I somehow 15 conflicting by making recommendations on the voluntary 16 insurance programs? And I talked to the State Board of 17 Insurance. 18 I've done this a number of times, been in similar 19 positions. There is no requirement for the County to bid 20 voluntary insurance programs, because there's no cost to the 21 County involved, but you do have a legal liability if, in 22 fact -- and I'm not sure -- I take that back. My -- my 23 perception is that there is a liability if, in fact, you 24 provide a salary reduction for an employee, that, in fact, 25 due diligence has been done on those products to be certain 11-14-07 27 1 that they're products that have good standing in the 2 insurance industry; they're not policies that are being 3 offered that are not fully insured, fully credible, and that 4 they meet the -- the recommendation -- or meet the 5 definitions that we gave for credibility as far as guaranteed 6 issue and web-based enrollment. And, so, that's where we -- 7 that's how we got to where we are. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it still -- I appreciate 9 the explanation, and that clears up how we got there. I've 10 never been a big fan of supplemental, period. I mean, I wish 11 we wouldn't do any of them, 'cause I think it's causing the 12 County and the taxpayers, as a whole -- it's costing them 13 money, because it takes time from our departments to benefit 14 certain people, and I just -- I don't know why we should 15 really be in that business. If people want some insurance, 16 let them go get supplemental insurance. That's my personal 17 feeling. We've decided as a Court to try to offer something. 18 I just think it is a perceived conflict if the policies are 19 coming through your company, whether you get the commission 20 directly or not. I mean, it's -- 21 MR. LOONEY: I understand. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- just a perceived conflict, 23 you know, and I don't know -- I don't -- I guess I never 24 really thought about it in great depth as to how we were 25 going to do it. I knew, you know, we were doing something 11-14-07 28 1 with supplemental, but I never really thought how we got it. 2 And I think the discussion yesterday, and kind of where I 3 thought we were, was that anyone that wrote that kind of 4 insurance, we would accept it as long as they met these two 5 criteria; I mean, the web-based and the guaranteed 6 enrollment, or whatever you call it. I also see that as 7 being a potential -- what I said yesterday, of us having -- 8 having to work with who knows how many companies. 9 MR. LOONEY: Yeah, that would be a terrible 10 headache. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And so, you know -- and I don't 12 know that the question also yesterday -- maybe you can shed 13 some light on this, is that the -- whether the submittals we 14 just received included paying the supplemental stuff. I know 15 they didn't include that they had to do it, but could -- can 16 they offer it? I mean, to me, whoever gets that business, it 17 makes a lot of sense to give them the exclusive for the 18 other, though I don't think we buy things that way, so we 19 probably can't do it this year. Maybe different companies. 20 MR. LOONEY: It's not included in that RFP process. 21 This -- the RFP is specific to the areas of coverage that 22 responds to that -- refers to that. I understand about 23 voluntary programs; I understand the circumstance that you 24 feel as far as that. As a simple illustration, there are a 25 number of your employees in this county that are not accessed 11-14-07 29 1 by insurance agents for the sale of a simple life insurance 2 policy, and the reason they're not is because they're not 3 perceived as being a profitable sale. Going out and selling 4 a policy that has less than $10 a month in premium or 5 whatever, agents are not real enthusiastic about doing that. 6 Having a guaranteed issue contract for life insurance -- 7 simple life insurance up to $150,000, by simple signature, 8 there are a large number of your employees that potentially 9 would take advantage of that, plus including their spouses up 10 to guaranteed issue of 50,000. And I know for a fact by 11 looking at some of the medical histories that there are a 12 number of spouses that would need to be in that program. 13 So that, conceptually, I understand that -- the 14 fight, but the insurance industry is not serving your 15 employees in the manner in which they should serve them. 16 They don't -- they don't offer -- unless the individual 17 requests it, they don't give them information about 18 short-term disability, long-term disability, things that are 19 critical, you know, as far as they're concerned, as far as 20 maintenance of an insurance program. The enrollments that 21 are done are done by individuals that Alamo Insurance Group 22 hires that are noncommissioned enrollers. They are not 23 commissioned. They are educated. They're educators, and so 24 they talk to the employees, tell them what things are 25 available, and try to prevent some of the things that we're 11-14-07 30 1 also witnessing, and that was your new employees coming to 2 the office with a check-off list that was anywhere from 35 to 3 40 percent of their take-home pay. And, again, Ms. Hyde 4 shouldn't be put in the position of monitoring. And so, by 5 going through the process -- electronic process, you get 6 records, you get information, you get data very quickly. And 7 when the individual is working in that web, it tells them 8 what the impact is on their salary base, what happens as far 9 as making those selections and elections are concerned. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Generally, are these services 11 offered by one company, or does one company do one thing and 12 another company do something else? 13 MR. LOONEY: When we went through the process -- 14 again, the due diligence process -- we contacted 25 companies 15 that then were required by us -- again, the due diligence 16 process -- required to have the guaranteed issue, required to 17 have the web-based. After that was filtered down, then there 18 was a selection made for the value as far as premium versus 19 policy is concerned. And then that value policy was the one 20 that ended up in the process. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I understand. 22 MS. HYDE: It's a mixture. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mixture of different companies, 24 but -- yeah, but -- 25 MR. LOONEY: There's four different -- five 11-14-07 31 1 different companies involved. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But all of the -- of those 3 policies will go through Alamo Insurance? 4 MR. LOONEY: That's correct. 5 MS. HYDE: One of the things that you asked 6 yesterday about -- about this, currently we're paying money, 7 county money, for employees that have some of these premiums. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can't hear you, Ms. Hyde. 9 MS. HYDE: We're currently paying money on a 10 monthly basis for every employee that has a certain 11 supplemental insurance policy, and it's the County that pays 12 for it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How's the County paying for it? 14 MS. HYDE: We pay for it every month, $4 per person 15 that's in that, and we have. I mean, that's why I had Mindy 16 come in, because, you know, we're trying to clean this up and 17 we're trying to make sure that we don't pay anything that we 18 shouldn't. But this has been paid for several years. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: I think the one that Eva's referring 20 to is the -- 21 MS. HYDE: The flex plan. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: The flexible HRA reimbursement. You 23 can have money deferred out of your paycheck to cover dental 24 work, eyeglasses, things like that. 25 MS. HYDE: It's prepaid flex. It's prepaid. 11-14-07 32 1 MS. WILLIAMS: But there is a $4 administrative fee 2 for every individual who has that plan. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many employees have 4 that plan? 5 MS. HYDE: It's down from what it was. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Right now, I think we've got about 7 10 or 12. At one time a couple of years ago, we had about 30 8 to 40. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To whom does the $4 10 administrative fee go? 11 MS. HYDE: To the supplemental -- 12 MS. WILLIAMS: AFLAC. 13 MS. HYDE: -- provider. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon me? 15 MS. HYDE: I'm not sure what we can talk about 16 publicly or not; I'm trying to look at him and y'all. 17 MR. EMERSON: As long as you stay away from HIPAA 18 and specifics associated with it, you can talk freely. 19 MS. HYDE: I guess that was partly my point. And 20 then we also, of course, pay commissions to anyone else, but 21 it's the employees that are paying the commissions. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 MS. HYDE: And so, unfortunately, because we don't 24 have what I call a convenient shop, a small one-stop shop -- 25 I'm like you. Unfortunately, but I would have 275 of them, 11-14-07 33 1 you know, lynching me, because we don't have that ability 2 yet. We self-insure. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 4 MS. HYDE: And as a self-insurer -- I can't see you 5 behind me, but as a self-insurer, what you were talking 6 about, we can't do. Most of -- you know, like your Mutuals 7 or your Aetnas or your Cignas, because we self-insure, 8 they're not going to give us those supplementals, because, 9 guess what? They're on the hook, and then they got to trust 10 that we're on the hook with them. If we were all in one, 11 like some of the bigger corporations or organizations, you 12 know, that had 500 or more employees, that met some of these 13 guidelines, then maybe we could get the all-in-one, where we 14 could do the supplementals through it. Here's -- here's our 15 cost; this is all we're going to pay, and then, employees, if 16 you want these, they're offered through our major medical. 17 We're getting there. It's just going to take us a few years. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As a convenience to our 19 employees, we offer other supplemental insurance -- 20 MS. HYDE: And it also helps us. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- products; is that 22 correct? 23 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. I mean, it also helps us. 24 And it's not that the County is offering it. What we're 25 doing is allowing them a one-stop shop for guaranteed issue. 11-14-07 34 1 That's huge, and y'all know that. I mean, a lot of our 2 employees cannot get insurance. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second part of my question 4 was, are we paying that administrative fee to any of these 5 others? 6 MS. HYDE: As far as I know, no, sir. It's the 7 employees that have gotten a larger payment for it. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Question. If -- if we don't have an 10 agent of record, Alamo or whomever, it effectively puts you 11 in the insurance business, for which you don't have a 12 license, and for which then the County becomes liable for the 13 proper performance of your handling those things. 14 MS. HYDE: Well, I think that Mindy can also attest 15 to the fact that, yes, sir, what you're saying is absolutely 16 correct, but also, the employees, and I think sometimes 17 department heads and elected officials, don't understand. 18 They think that H.R. should know this, and if they come in 19 and want to know about their VALIC or their AFLAC or their 20 Colonial or their Texas -- and we can keep going, 'cause 21 there's about 15 of them -- they get angry. I mean, I've 22 talked to several of y'all when some of the elected officials 23 have hosed -- you know, hosed me because I can't answer their 24 question. And I can't look; heck, I can't get nothing. But, 25 you know, with Mutual -- or with this system, then guess 11-14-07 35 1 what? We own it. It's not their information; it's our 2 information. They can't sell it and they can't use it. And, 3 again, I go back to guaranteed issue. And I'm not the 4 insurance agent; I'm the insurance facilitator. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have an issue at all 6 with, I guess, the procedure. That makes sense. The issue 7 that I have is how we ended up with Alamo Insurance being the 8 chosen one without giving anybody else the opportunity. And 9 that's -- I just -- that's a -- it's almost the same 10 situation, though hopefully better -- 11 MR. LOONEY: I hope. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- than we had with our 13 previous supplemental relationship. 14 MS. HYDE: Well, when I went out and looked -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Did I say that sort of nice? 16 MR. LOONEY: Thank you. I appreciate that. 17 MS. HYDE: There was no one here locally that can 18 do this. I did talk to local insurance, and guess what? 19 They laughed at me, number one, on the guaranteed issue. And 20 if they did have internet, it's theirs, and we have to use 21 theirs, and then they charge us for it. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- and I say -- and maybe, 23 you know, within reason, maybe Alamo Insurance Group would 24 offer the best service, but I'm sure there are others that do 25 that. And I just think that that mechanism needs to be open 11-14-07 36 1 to other companies if we're going to stay in the supplemental 2 business, which it appears we are. So, you know, I just -- 3 you know, I just think it's -- and then if it was an open 4 process, I'd have no problem, but if, you know, Alamo 5 Insurance provides the best service -- and they very well 6 would, I think, but I just think it's just the -- the -- 7 MR. LOONEY: It's perception. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, it's the perception 9 issue. 10 MR. LOONEY: And I understand that. You know, I 11 understand that concept. In this arena, there's a -- there's 12 a lot of counties and a lot of school districts that do not 13 bid supplemental and voluntary insurance products; they 14 simply allow the deductions to take place for insurance 15 companies; they approve deductions. And, so, I've got a real 16 problem with that, and the fact that if they're not doing due 17 diligence on the insurance products that are being offered to 18 the employees, I assume that the organizational structure at 19 that point is accepting a liability for that deduction. So, 20 from our standpoint, from Alamo Insurance standpoint, what we 21 said was we're going to do due diligence, which we've done, 22 and that's where we ended up, as I said. It is not a 23 required bid process. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. What is the -- and I 25 don't know if it -- if it requires bid. I mean, I guess we 11-14-07 37 1 can just go ahead and pick Alamo Insurance, but what's the 2 potential dollar value of premiums? Does that enter into it? 3 I'm looking at Rex here. I mean, if this -- even though it's 4 not coming through the County, I mean, does it make any 5 difference? Do we -- should we be -- or should I be 6 concerned about us picking Company A? 7 MR. LOONEY: How much commission would be flowing 8 through? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or, really, to Rex, is that a 10 relevant issue? I mean, this is not something the County 11 is -- is really involved with. We're facilitating it, but 12 it's coming through the County. Do we have to be concerned 13 from open bidding requirements or any other rules as to who 14 we let do that? 15 MR. EMERSON: As far as I know, no, because there's 16 no public funds going into it. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's the catch. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it seems to me that's a 19 huge potential problem. I mean, say -- you know, say 20 Buster's brother did this. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Leave me out of this. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Say Bill's brother did this. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's better. More likely. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did what? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Offered us insurance, and the 11-14-07 38 1 Court just said we're going to give it to Bill's brother. 2 And all of a sudden, they're making -- they have the 3 exclusive ability to do supplemental insurance for Kerr 4 County. It's not -- you know, that seems to me to be really 5 scary. Not that your brother would do anything -- or whoever 6 wouldn't do good insurance. And it seems to me that we're 7 figuring out a way to give exclusive -- or a way for a 8 company to make a lot of money, or potentially a lot of 9 money, and that is the exclusive right to make it, and that's 10 a big concern to me, that we can do that. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe we can go to the 12 heart of the issue, Gary. How -- how do supplemental 13 providers -- how do they know that we are open for proposal 14 -- not that we're open for proposals, that proposals are -- 15 they can make proposals to you to serve our employee group? 16 Given that there's no tax money involved. 17 MR. LOONEY: How are they notified? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How do they know that? 19 MR. LOONEY: How do they know that? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 21 MR. LOONEY: If you want to sit down in Eva's 22 office sometime, about every fifth phone call is from an 23 insurance company or somebody else that would like to come 24 and visit with her and talk to her about how good their 25 product is to offer to the county. 11-14-07 39 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And so her standard 2 response would be to defer that call to you? 3 MR. LOONEY: Not -- we don't get many calls from 4 Eva about it. I assume that she puts it on a rolodex 5 somewhere or files it away. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, how do you handle it, 7 Ms. Hyde? 8 MS. HYDE: It goes into the file. I think what 9 he's asking, and what they asked yesterday, was how did it 10 get out to -- 'cause I said it got out all over the place, 11 and that wasn't the right answer. 12 MR. LOONEY: Well, it goes -- it went out through 13 an Alamo Insurance Group process, which is a list of all of 14 the companies that offer these types of products to 15 employees. And the original mailing that went out, or the 16 original request that went out probably went out to -- it's 17 between 40 and 50 companies. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, it's not a selective 19 process. That's the point I'm driving at. It's not a 20 selective process that somebody, either in your organization 21 or in our organization, says, "We're going to let this one, 22 this one, this one, this one, this one..." No. 23 MR. LOONEY: No. 24 MS. HYDE: No. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's not a selective 11-14-07 40 1 process. 2 MR. LOONEY: No. It was, "Okay, here are the 3 people that do it. Here are our parameters." 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 5 MR. LOONEY: "If you meet these parameters, then 6 provide us this information." 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the other side of it, there 9 are probably, I'm guessing, companies that offer the services 10 that weren't notified, 'cause you just don't work with them. 11 Your firm doesn't. 12 MR. LOONEY: It's possible. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So there's probably -- you 14 know, so it wasn't -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- open-open, but it was -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It wasn't -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- it was open. Yeah, we know 19 these people do it, and that's who we're going to let do it. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It wasn't an exclusive 21 process. 22 MS. HYDE: But you didn't do it necessarily to 23 individual people; you did it to the companies, and I think 24 that's what I didn't get across yesterday. 25 MR. LOONEY: We went directly to the companies. 11-14-07 41 1 MS. HYDE: It went directly to the head honchos. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Again, I don't find any problem 3 with the process. My problem I have is that we're selecting 4 one -- how we go about selecting one insurance agent to 5 handle all the supplemental insurance. 6 MS. HYDE: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Even though there's no county 8 funds, we are then steering business to one company. 9 MS. HYDE: But isn't that what we already did? I 10 mean, I'm not trying to be facetious, but it appears that we 11 were already doing it. So, I'm sorry, I was trying to do 12 what I thought was best to try to get this away from the 13 perception of, "You're my buddy, and you get it." And, 14 unfortunately, that's -- that is the perception here. And 15 so, you know, I'm saying, okay, I go to an insurance company. 16 This is their job. This is something they're very good at. 17 And they were able to do it as a project; it didn't cost us 18 anything. They went out and broadcast it throughout the 19 state to the big ones, and they said, "okay. Can you guys do 20 two things? Guarantee it to all employees, and put it 21 online." 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We did it before. That's what 25 we're trying to change now. We're just doing it to a 11-14-07 42 1 different person or company; hopefully, doing it a lot 2 better. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It was an elected official 4 before. Now you're doing it with a company. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, we were doing it with a 6 local agent. 7 MS. HYDE: That -- yeah, that the elected official 8 chose. 9 MS. HARGIS: I think -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We actually named Finley and 11 Associates as the company that was going to do it. 12 MS. HARGIS: The County did it, the City did it, 13 and the school did it. They all went with the same company. 14 Now, the City changed theirs, and I wasn't there when it 15 changed, but they took the supplementals away. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 17 MS. HARGIS: Because they had the same problem, 18 because they couldn't -- the people came to them for their 19 problems instead of the -- of the agent that was provided, 20 and they couldn't -- they weren't qualified to give them the 21 answers, and they were angry. So, they just took them away. 22 They said if you want to do supplements, you have to do them 23 on your own. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Well, that's the base issue. 25 Do we offer supplemental coverage? And the good news/bad 11-14-07 43 1 news is, if we don't offer it, then everybody's on their own 2 and we don't have that issue. Each employee selects the 3 agent and/or company of their choice, and -- and hopes they 4 can get coverage. The bad news is, they may not be 5 insurable. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: On the other hand, that's the big 8 item, is the insurability. If we offer it, I certainly don't 9 want Ms. Hyde in the insurance business, 'cause I would deem 10 her a liability to the County at that point. So, we got to 11 have us an agent of record. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: And somebody's got to be the agent, 14 so when they come in and say, "Ms. Hyde, I want to talk to 15 you about my long-term disability," she's going to say, "You 16 need to go to the agent that handles that." 17 MS. HYDE: And they get very angry. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, they may have to continue to 19 do that. But I would prefer her office not to have to be -- 20 to look up a roster of six different folks, and which one is 21 doing this one? Which one is doing that one? Which one is 22 doing this one? If she's got one go-to individual, that's 23 certainly more efficient on her part. And the other bottom 24 line is, as the agent, I think you have assumed the Court's 25 liability by representing to us that you've done due 11-14-07 44 1 diligence on these insurance products; they represent fair 2 value to our employees based upon the premiums quoted, your 3 second tier of your -- of your process. 4 MR. LOONEY: Right. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: And these are voluntary. The 6 employee is aware, or can be made aware very easily, that 7 their -- part of the premium they're paying is being paid as 8 a commission to the servicing agent, the agent of record, 9 which there's going to have to be one of those somewhere. I 10 know I don't want you in the business, sorry. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with an agent of 12 record, but I think we need a process that's open to the 13 public and all agents to be that agent of record, and that's 14 what -- where we missed. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, we didn't have that 16 -- we didn't have that same situation, Commissioner, when 17 Wallace and Associates was selected to be the agent of record 18 for our other insurance products. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They came -- they brought it to 20 us through the proposal. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They all are now, yes, but 22 not the first time out. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: No, the dental was a -- dental, for 24 example, was a supplemental, and their Met Life was -- was 25 the only one -- that was the only one. 11-14-07 45 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean -- 2 MS. HYDE: No, another one too. There's another 3 one. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: There is -- 5 MS. HYDE: Texas Dental, Met Life Dental, and we 6 have AFLAC Dental. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, and I -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, but those were carry-overs. 9 MS. HYDE: From prior years. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's another factor 12 which I think is important to this whole situation, in 13 addition to the ones the Judge mentioned, insurability and 14 agent of record, so that the H.R. Department does not receive 15 these questions on half a dozen different products, and that 16 is the convenience for our employees of payroll deduction. 17 For many, many, many employees, having that deducted from 18 their payroll, with the insurability, guarantees their 19 ability to maintain the insurance product for their families 20 and themselves, and that's important. To me it's very 21 important. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All I'm going to say is, I 23 cannot support a plan where we hand-pick -- this Court 24 hand-picks a company to write all that supplemental insurance 25 without making it available to any other agent. I can't 11-14-07 46 1 support that. That's just cherry-picking, from my 2 standpoint, brother-in-law deals, whatever you want to call 3 it. I won't do that. Everything you're saying can be done 4 by putting this out to the agents and let them, you know, do 5 the same criteria. And hopefully -- you know, it's not -- 6 nothing against Alamo Insurance. Y'all have done a fantastic 7 job. 8 MR. LOONEY: I understand. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's -- I can't steer 10 business to one company without doing it as a public, open 11 process. I just can't do it. So -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand your position. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He is making an excellent, 14 excellent point. A real, live point -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Write this down, Kathy. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- in this issue. 17 MR. LOONEY: But that is -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I want to hear the 19 rebuttal or the argument to what he's saying. What is that? 20 What is the argument today? 21 MR. LOONEY: From my standpoint, are you saying? 22 What's the rebuttal? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. There's -- either you 24 or the Judge, one of the two, is arguing with him over the 25 issue. 11-14-07 47 1 MR. LOONEY: Well, you know, I can -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whoever's arguing with him 3 needs to tell me what the other side is. 4 MR. LOONEY: As I said originally, we were asked to 5 take this on as a project. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. LOONEY: And that's the way we approached it. 8 We approached it as a project. We approached it from the 9 standpoint of trying to provide the best protection we could 10 for the Court by doing the due diligence process, and also by 11 the best opportunities of selection for the employees for 12 their options that they make under the contract -- under the 13 different contracts. As such, the bids -- you're not 14 required as a Court to bid on an RFP basis, because there's 15 no funds involved with it. So, we approached it as a 16 project, and we were given a very specific list of things 17 that we'd like to be accomplished during this plan year, and 18 that's -- and so that's why -- that's where we are today. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I guess the option is -- is 20 to cease and desist. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the response to that, 22 Commissioner, is if we want a wide open to the world proposal 23 from every agent on every type of insurance -- supplemental 24 insurance product, and we do that, that then puts us in the 25 position as a Court of doing the due diligence on all of 11-14-07 48 1 those products that we receive proposals on, and we then 2 become responsible for the due diligence and the resulting 3 liability, if any, because of some fault in that process. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or we could hire a company to 5 do due diligence for us, like we do with all our other 6 insurance. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This is a professional 8 service that Mr. Looney's doing. In my opinion, this is just 9 like us approving an architect to do a project, and we're 10 paying him for his knowledge and his ability to do these 11 things for us, to come up with the best plan, is the way I 12 see it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we've never offered it to 14 anybody else. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, that may be something 16 that needs to happen in the future. Unfortunately, at this 17 particular time in the world, we're -- you know, we're 18 needing to get these proposals looked at. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That has nothing to do with 20 these -- nothing to do with any of this stuff. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I know, but that's got to get 22 done, and we're taking up his time on this right now. And we 23 need to get the other things straightened out with the 24 supplementals, and maybe if we don't want to do that, if we 25 think we're doing something that's not right, maybe we ought 11-14-07 49 1 to just forget about supplementals, which I think is not in 2 the best interest of our employees. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Neither do I. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That I agree with. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And that is what we're doing. 6 We're giving them -- it's been offered to them. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Through one -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Through one deal. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Through one deal. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Through one company. And 11 that's -- you know, the thing is, though, he has gone and 12 done all the other work to get it down to where they're going 13 to get the most bang for their buck, something that we don't 14 have the ability to do. So, we either don't offer it, or we 15 hire a professional, and next year we go out for proposals 16 for another company, just like Mr. Looney has, to be our 17 consultant. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can't we just change our 19 contract with Mr. Looney and let him do it, when he's already 20 done it, and pay him for it? That's -- that solves the whole 21 problem, to me. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Where are we here? 23 MS. HYDE: Can we do that? 24 MR. EMERSON: Well, two comments. One, if you go 25 about 30 minutes back in the discussion, you solve the issue 11-14-07 50 1 of relationships that you were talking about through a 2 disclosure of family or business relationships affidavit that 3 you have the agent, or whoever submits it, sign. And that 4 should take care of any conflict of interest claims on behalf 5 of anybody, okay? Now, if you step forward and you're 6 talking about hiring Mr. Looney to be the consultant to 7 evaluate the same insurance that he's acting as agent and 8 broker for, then I think you've got a problem. 9 MR. LOONEY: Yes, sir. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that is a problem. 11 MR. LOONEY: We can't do that. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: But he's not -- he's not under 13 contract to do that for us. 14 MR. EMERSON: Correct. But the issue was thrown 15 out just a minute ago to have a consultant do that. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He could do it and then not -- 17 and not let his company be the company that bids on it. 18 MR. LOONEY: That's correct. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There are other companies that 20 do it, just like there are seven other companies that gave us 21 proposals right behind us. 22 MR. EMERSON: That's true. 23 MR. LOONEY: If you want to go out for an agent, it 24 takes approximately 15 days to do so, and if you want -- if 25 you want that, we've got blanket RFP's that we've done in the 11-14-07 51 1 past for voluntary products, and we can provide that for you. 2 You can go out and do it on a bid process, Commissioner, if 3 that's what you'd like to do. 4 MS. HYDE: We can put out an RFP. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I seem to be in the minority, 6 so... 7 MS. HYDE: We can put it out on an RFP, but I would 8 ask that you gentlemen would need to be the ones that do it, 9 not me, 'cause I'm not an insurance agent. So, this RFP, we 10 can put it out, I mean, and I think that -- I mean, he's not 11 upset about it; I'm not upset about it. We're trying to do 12 the right thing for the employees, and you bring up a valid 13 point. But on the flip side, we are getting down towards the 14 end of the wire, and we need to do something. But we've 15 still got 15 more days of this year that we can do another 16 RFP, if that's what y'all want us to do. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or we could just go up here 18 next door to your law office and hire that gentleman to 19 manage it all for us. What would be wrong with that? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, other than it wouldn't meet 21 the two criteria that we've put on the table, which is -- at 22 least one of them I don't think it will meet. 23 MS. HYDE: Guaranteed issue. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mr. County Attorney, are we 25 doing anything illegal by doing what Mr. Looney has done for 11-14-07 52 1 us? By him representing us and going out for those proposals 2 and getting them all set down into what he believes to be the 3 best offering for the -- the employees of Kerr County? 4 MR. EMERSON: Not that I'm aware of, no. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay, that's all I want to 6 know. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good enough for me. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The reality is, I think it's a 9 perception -- ethics and perception are pretty important. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't know why that is. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think ethics is pretty 12 important. I think trust and honesty to the public is very 13 important. And, one, I'm quite ticked off that I wasn't 14 aware of this a while back. So -- 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I haven't been here very 16 long; I'm still learning. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think this was still going on 18 when you were here, Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This was? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 21 MR. LOONEY: Believe me, I have no intention of 22 trying to -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know; it's not you. 24 MR. LOONEY: I'm not trying to argue. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've said enough. You know my 11-14-07 53 1 position. 2 MR. LOONEY: I'll offer -- we've done a lot of work 3 to this point. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. LOONEY: We will resign as your agent effective 6 at the end of this year for the voluntary plans for next 7 year. We'll -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Boy, that makes me mad. 9 MR. LOONEY: We'll resign. You can then take it 10 out to a public bid. All the products will be in place. We 11 will have cleaned up the mess. And then whoever you pick at 12 that point can carry it forward from that point, or if you 13 choose us to continue, then we'll continue. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where are we in the -- in 15 the -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's a good option 17 from the standpoint that we can discuss it. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the agenda item? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you've done a really 20 good job. It's just a matter of -- of no one else was 21 available to do it, and I -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: 26. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do I need to make a motion 25 so we can get out of here, or what? 11-14-07 54 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, you do. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 3 MR. LOONEY: I'll make that commitment to you right 4 now. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, this is probably a dumb 6 question. Are we under some kind of written agreement with 7 you to do the supplemental insurance programs? 8 MR. LOONEY: No. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just kind of a verbal -- 11 nice thing that you're doing, or do we need to crank it up? 12 MR. LOONEY: We were asked to review it and do it 13 as a project. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 15 MR. LOONEY: That's all we did, is a project. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we're going to approve 17 his company of handling that program? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Recommendation. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: The recommendations that he has made 20 as supplemental carriers. That's -- that's the -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that your motion? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I didn't make a motion. I'm 23 just telling -- trying to tell you what the -- what the 24 agenda item is. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, let's do that. What's 11-14-07 55 1 the problem with -- I move that we do that. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That we approve the agenda item? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll second it. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And a second. We have a motion and 9 a second. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, if Commissioner Letz -- 11 go ahead. I'm sorry, Judge. If Commissioner Letz wants to 12 bring this back at the end of the year, like Mr. Looney just 13 suggested, then we'll bring it up at that time. 14 MR. LOONEY: The end of the plan year, not the end 15 of the calendar year. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whatever. Don't throw any 17 more wrenches in this thing. Let's move on down the road. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We have a motion and a second 19 for approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? 20 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 21 hand. 22 (Commissioners Baldwin, Williams, and Oehler voted in favor of the motion.) 23 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (Commissioner Letz voted against the motion.) 11-14-07 56 1 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Any further 2 business to come before the Court on the 11-13-08 agenda? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Under Commissioners 4 reports, I'll tell you about the Cornerstone program. 5 (Court reporter interrupted to change paper.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Commissioners' reports? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: At the request of K.I.S.D. 8 Superintendent, Dr. Troxel, I made what I thought was going 9 to be a cameo appearance at the K.I.S.D. Board of Trustees 10 meeting last night to lend support to the request for a 11 letter of recommendation of support for Cornerstone Programs 12 Corporation out of Denver, Colorado, and their efforts to 13 lease our facility and provide charter school services. It 14 turned out it was more than a cameo experience. It was about 15 35 or 40 minutes in the dock, if you will, Judge, explaining 16 to them what this was all about; that Kerr County had lived 17 up to its commitment to insure that any letter of intent or 18 agreement that we negotiate or sign contained the caveat that 19 K.I.S.D. would be held unaccountable -- would not be held 20 accountable for educational services or financially 21 accountable, et cetera, et cetera. It really was an 22 interesting experience. And I found myself defending T.Y.C., 23 Cornerstone, Kerr County, and everybody else to get some 24 understanding over there that, first of all, what we're doing 25 makes some sense in terms of Kerr County and the lease of our 11-14-07 57 1 facility to a company that's responsible to do these things. 2 That we did not provide oversight for the programs. That was 3 a T.Y.C. function, not a Kerr County function. That we had 4 no -- no ability to choose what age group of people or youth 5 would be in that facility, but our understanding was it would 6 be 10 to 13 years old, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Went 7 on and on and on and on. Bottom line was, they approved the 8 recommendation five to two. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which two voted against it? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ms. Graham and Dr. Sprouse. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because? Did they give any 12 reason? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ms. Graham, I think, on 14 philosophical reasons. She just doesn't understand why there 15 was a need to do this, or that there might be a potential 16 long-term contingent liability for the district if -- and we 17 went through this -- if the charter school pulled out, if 18 Cornerstone folded, if whatever, whatever, whatever. Any 19 kind of contingencies you could think of were embedded in her 20 mind. Not sure why Dr. Sprouse, because he asked me a lot of 21 questions. I'm not sure why he ultimately voted against it, 22 but there were two other members of the board that were 23 turned around on the issue based on the give and take and the 24 Q and A, and it ended up five to two. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: We repeatedly assured those folks 11-14-07 58 1 that we were not going to cut any deal that was going to be 2 detrimental to them, period. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And Dr. Troxel, Judge -- I 4 have to tell the Court that Dr. Troxel, in introducing the 5 topic and me, made certain that he gave proper credit to 6 Commissioners Court for doing just that; that we made a 7 commitment and we stuck by our commitment, and et cetera, et 8 cetera. So -- and when the issue was presented to them prior 9 to my getting up to respond to questions and make my 10 comments, the presenter made that same -- those two pitches 11 to the board, so they clearly understood the issue going in, 12 and that Kerr County lived up to its commitment in this 13 regard. So, anyhow, bottom line was they approved it five to 14 two. Dr. Troxel has the ability now to work with Cornerstone 15 and the John H. Wood Charter School in any way possible, and 16 whatever letter of support will be forthcoming in support of 17 the Cornerstone application. And in that context, I talked 18 to Gary Miller yesterday afternoon, which I told the Court I 19 would do, to find out two things; where they stand in terms 20 of their proposal with T.Y.C., and where is our signed letter 21 of intent. It was on the controller's desk; it had fallen 22 through the cracks. He said, "I will get it back to you 23 A.S.A.P," so that part's -- that's okay. They said in terms 24 of T.Y.C., it's in the final, final, final stage of review. 25 It's on the Executive Director's desk. They've jumped 11-14-07 59 1 through every hoop that had been put out. They scored 2 high -- their proposal scored high. They've met all the 3 qualifications and criteria, so they're -- they're waiting on 4 the Executive Director to issue a contract. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I gather that, notwithstanding the 6 repeated mention of the assurances that we had given them, 7 that we'd stuck firmly by those, there was still some doubt 8 whether -- whether we were on the square with them? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know, Judge. 10 I don't think that -- I don't think the two dissenting votes 11 thought we were being disingenuous or dishonest about it, 12 because clearly we were not. Everything that was represented 13 there by Dr. Troxel and by me was that we had lived up to our 14 obligation. We had made a commitment, and we lived up to 15 that commitment. I think that there were some philosophical 16 things. There's still some heartburn over there over the -- 17 over the last issue that they had to go work out with TEA in 18 terms of their accreditation. There was a little bit of 19 heartburn about the cost that had been incurred in the past, 20 and there might have been a little bit of angst, if you will, 21 over the potential that if there was an interim period where 22 John H. Wood, for whatever reasons, was not the educational 23 provider, what would happen if the kids were still here and 24 the educational provider was not here? Would they have to 25 step into the breach? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, 11-14-07 60 1 it might have been a little anxiety. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Isn't that easily answered, 3 that question? No. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, yeah, I think so. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sounds like a good question 6 to me. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a legitimate question. 8 But, you know, if -- if Cornerstone or John H. Wood folds up 9 their tent, TYC's going to move those kids. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They're not going to be left 11 there unsupervised. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, because I assured 13 them we weren't going to take it over. I said we got out of 14 that business, and we got out of the business for the same 15 reason that you have concerns about, and that's spending 16 taxpayers' money to educate kids or to take care of kids from 17 all over the state of Texas coming into Kerr County. So -- 18 that's why we got out of that business. So, we clearly -- we 19 understand your concern. Bottom line is, they voted in 20 favor. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't they -- this is just 22 kind of a side question here. They're bringing in kids from 23 Dallas or Lubbock. Do they -- even if they're here one day, 24 do they count towards the ADA of the school district? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not if there's a charter 11-14-07 61 1 school in place. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, charter school. Yeah, 3 that may be. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. They're -- they're 5 relieved of that responsibility. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think the answer is yes. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If there's no charter 8 school involved, the answer to your question is yes. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: One thing they never did complain 11 about, even previously, was -- was our effect on their 12 attendance rating. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: They did never did complain about 15 that, for some reason. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the end of my 18 report, Judge. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Anything else, 20 gentlemen? We'll be adjourned. 21 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 1:22 p.m.) 22 - - - - - - - - - - 23 24 25 11-14-07 62 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 21st day of November, 8 2007. 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11-14-07