1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 County Parks Workshop 10 Monday, November 26, 2007 11 2:20 p.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 ABSENT: BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X November 26, 2007 2 PAGE 3 Workshop on long-range planning, improvements, maintenance, etc. for county parks 3 4 Adjourned 19 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, November 26, 2007, at 2:20 p.m., a workshop 2 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let me call to order a 7 workshop posted for Monday, November 26, 2007, at 2 p.m. It 8 is a bit past that time now. We were delayed with another 9 matter. The agenda item on the workshop is to participate in 10 a workshop on long-range planning and improvements, 11 maintenance and so forth for county parks. Commissioner 12 Williams? As being the parks guru on this Court, I'll let 13 you open it up. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. Several 15 weeks ago, it was called to my attention that there was 16 confusion over who's involved in the parks and what they're 17 supposed to do. What are the improvements? Who's going to 18 make the improvements? How's maintenance handled? Who's 19 going to make repairs? And all these things, and that there 20 was some sense that maybe we needed a workshop on these items 21 to talk about them and talk them out. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have to admit, those are 23 good questions. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, it was a good point. 25 Long-range planning, improvements, maintenance of county 11-26-07 wk 4 1 parks. That leads to whether or not it's time for us to take 2 a look at the parks master plan, which is a necessity if we 3 ever go out for more grant money anywhere else. We did that, 4 as you may recall, in 2003; updated it from 2003 to 2008. 5 We're coming up on 2008, so I just want to throw the topic 6 open. Tim and I haven't had much talk about it, except what 7 I just said. The issue was brought to me by Road and Bridge 8 people in terms of what we can do, how we do it, who does it, 9 and so forth and so on. So, that's why we're here. That's 10 my opening statement. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we -- can we boil it 12 down to, like, one park? As an example, the new property at 13 Flat Rock. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think that's a good 15 place to start, Commissioner, Flat Rock Lake Park. We have 16 the existing piece which Commissioner Letz and members of 17 this Court worked on years ago to improve, and we made some 18 major improvements. We're making some right now in terms of 19 the bridge, where the bridge is at on our new section, and so 20 we probably need to come to grips, or may have some 21 discussion about what we want that new section to be all 22 about and how we're going to handle that, and what other 23 improvements do we want to make down there? Whose 24 responsibility is it? Is it going to fall under Tim and his 25 people? Does it fall under Road and Bridge? Is it a 11-26-07 wk 5 1 combination of both? And so forth. So, that's a good place 2 to start, Flat Rock Lake Park. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My first question is, who 4 mows the thing? Who's responsible for mowing? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We took it -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who has a tractor big enough 7 to mow it? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think Tim's people are 9 now mowing. Correct? 10 MR. BOLLIER: We take care of the parks, yes, sir, 11 we do. We mow all of them. We do riverbank, the whole nine 12 yards. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What tractor do you use? 14 MR. BOLLIER: We don't use a tractor; we use a John 15 Deere riding lawnmower. We have two of them now. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is -- 17 MR. BOLLIER: I've been doing it. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is that, 5 or 6 acres 19 out there? 20 MR. BOLLIER: Try again. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Try about 40. 22 MR. BOLLIER: About 40 to 50 acres. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 40 or 50 in the main piece, 24 21 in the new piece. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Twenty-one, and you mow it 11-26-07 wk 6 1 with a riding lawnmower? 2 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. And it takes us about -- 3 we do it in a day. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He's got a fast lawnmower. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He does. 6 MR. BOLLIER: I'm not kidding you. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You don't pull a batwing or 8 anything? 9 MR. BOLLIER: I don't have a batwing, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, that's why I'm thinking 11 that it needs to be some kind of combined effort. 12 MR. BOLLIER: If you -- you see, like, the park 13 down -- Flat Rock Park, the one behind the Ag Barn, that park 14 is -- we keep that really nice, and that's the reason we 15 started mowing it with our riding lawnmowers, because it 16 makes a whole lot nicer looking park. And if you go down 17 there with a tractor and a batwing, it looks like -- I'm not 18 going to use that word in here, but you can -- you know what 19 I'm saying. It doesn't look good. It doesn't look good at 20 all. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Looks like it's been mowed with a 22 tractor and a batwing. 23 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Looks like an old field. 25 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. And so we keep it -- we 11-26-07 wk 7 1 try to keep it mowed like your front yard. That's just the 2 way we've been doing it, Commissioner. And it doesn't take a 3 lot of time. I mean, Sonny stays down there and stays on it, 4 and we have B.J.'s bunch. They get the weed-eaters, and they 5 do the riverbanks and they do the trees and all that. And 6 what we do is get on a mower and stay on it all day, and it 7 gets done. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the status on the bridge 9 going to the new park? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was just going to ask 11 Tim. Do you know where we are on the bridge? 12 MR. BOLLIER: I do not know that, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I know the spans are 14 in place, and some of the tying -- all that tying together 15 and some of that stuff that takes place after you lay the 16 spans in place. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The spans being the railroad 18 cars that are there? So -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. We've bridged it. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We just can't drive it. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can't drive it. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can't get there from here. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can't get there from here, 24 and so forth. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, long-range, I think we 11-26-07 wk 8 1 probably need a new master park plan. If -- even if we just 2 have, you know, very little -- put a small part about Lions 3 Park and Ingram Park -- Dam Park, Ingram Dam. Our crown 4 jewel of our parks is clearly Flat Rock. The big holdup to 5 developing the eastern portion across from Third Creek has 6 been access, and that's being -- certainly, in this budget 7 year, will be fixed. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably next couple months 10 will be fixed. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, it will be fixed. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, you know, that the -- 13 we need to make some improvements out there, and I think most 14 of the responsibilities would come to maintenance. That's 15 how I see it. I don't see it as a Road and Bridge function, 16 much. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: What sort of vehicular traffic do 18 you see utilizing this new bridge? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: County vehicles. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maintenance vehicles. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maintenance vehicles and 22 walking. I don't see -- maybe some cars, put a parking area 23 at some point. It depends a little bit on -- this changes 24 the whole lot as to that's why we need a master plan as to 25 what we want to do with that piece of property. I don't 11-26-07 wk 9 1 think we want trucks going on there. I think there are some 2 weight issues on the bridge. It certainly worked fine, I 3 mean, on Hermann Sons for a while. I think it's really more, 4 you know, a -- I don't know what a car even weighs. 6,000 5 pounds? Less than 10,000-pound weight capacity to that 6 bridge, I'd say. I don't think you want to put a whole lot 7 more than that. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A lot depends on what we 9 determine we want to do with the newer parcel, the 21-acre 10 parcel. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have a problem with 12 having just cars probably crossing it, but nothing much more 13 than a car. And if we -- but if we allow cars over there for 14 the public, I think we need to have a defined parking area so 15 we don't have donuts and other things done out there, which 16 would happen frequently. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about the liability, 18 though, of a private vehicle driving across that bridge 19 thing? That would scare me a little bit. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we had them crossing it 21 on Hermann Sons Road for two years. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it's going to be 23 finished -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The same width? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Same bridge. 11-26-07 wk 10 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand that. But, I 2 mean, it's the same -- same size? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two flat cars wide. Two 4 flat cars wide, and I think he's going to put rails on both 5 sides. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Even those fishermen on 7 Saturday night could make it across there, then, huh? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, about the time they 9 start fishing. Maybe not by the time they end fishing. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's pretty stout. I mean, I 11 think you could -- I don't know what the weight capacity is. 12 We didn't -- when you get into one of those things, you don't 13 know what it is, you err on the conservative side. But I 14 think, hopefully, I mean, it's open to some vehicular 15 traffic, because that's the main reason for it. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We also talk about 17 improvements, Commissioner. You know, in the last plan, you 18 were involved in that intricately, and the grant money and so 19 forth and so on. And we did some improvements. One of the 20 improvements, I think, that was identified in the original 21 one that -- where we received the funding from L.C.R.A. had 22 to do with providing restrooms facilities. And we've kicked 23 that one around two or three times; we've got real close to 24 doing it and backed away, because there are a lot of 25 considerations about -- about the down side of that, whether 11-26-07 wk 11 1 that's a good idea or not such a good idea. So, I think we 2 need to revisit all that, maybe, and just -- just do the 3 complete new master plan which identifies improvements. Or 4 if we agree that the Maintenance Department has the overall 5 responsibility for maintenance, that's fine. That's good, 6 and come up with a plan and go from there. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: One of the issues we had on the 8 restroom facilities on the west portion of the Flat Rock Lake 9 Park was the elevation, and the ability to put something in 10 there that would be accessible and be up out of the floodway 11 or the floodplain. And we've got -- we got sewer coming down 12 through there now. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, and to place it so 14 that we could tie it into the sanitary sewer system. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- looking at the eastern 16 portion of that park, the newer portion, that whole -- the 17 elevation of that piece is above the spillway of Flat Rock 18 Dam. There's considerable variance in the elevation, and 19 might be -- might be something worth considering with some 20 restroom facilities over there as part of that plan, whatever 21 that may be. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There was a plan -- a pavilion 23 was planned over there, kind of midway down and up towards -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mr. Taylor's fence. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- Mr. Taylor's property, yeah. 11-26-07 wk 12 1 Mr. Taylor's, yeah, property. So -- and that -- you know, 2 and it was -- and that was a grant that we were trying to get 3 from the Parks and Wildlife that we just went awry real fast 4 on that application. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But, you know, in light of 6 -- I know it was part of the original consideration, but in 7 light of the fact that River Star has now put a pavilion in, 8 you know, I guess we can raise the question as to whether or 9 not we need two pavilions in the same general area. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think things like -- 11 you know, relatively inexpensive things we probably can do 12 in-house, almost. Barbecue pits, things of that nature. I 13 don't know -- you know, I think a walking trail. Did we put 14 a walking trail in over there? 15 MR. BOLLIER: There's a walking trail up on top. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. But you could -- you 17 know, you could do something like that. 'Cause, like the 18 Judge says, a lot of that property is not prone to flooding 19 over there, and it's -- you don't have sewer real close, but 20 you can still do restrooms and -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You can do O.S.S.F. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, over there you probably 23 could do O.S.S.F. pretty easily. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tim, do you have anything 25 you want to bring at this point? 11-26-07 wk 13 1 MR. BOLLIER: Well, I looked over this and 2 everything, but, like, down there in the parks, I'd like to 3 see us put some picnic tables down there. I think that would 4 stop some of the parking up along the river. Or -- it just 5 depends on where we put the picnic tables. And there's no -- 6 there's really not any parking down in that part unless you 7 pull off the paved road. You know, that paved road down -- 8 I'm talking, you know, the one behind the Ag Barn. There's 9 really no parking there, unless you park in the field or -- 10 or down by the river. So -- and just like Commissioner Letz 11 was saying a while ago, people are coming down there and 12 cutting donuts in there all the time. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 14 MR. BOLLIER: So, I mean, we -- we need to do 15 something. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The problem of putting 17 tables or even barbecue pits, for that matter, down there is 18 that on those occasions when the river decides it's bigger 19 than it is today, those things get inundated and muddy and 20 washed away and whatever. We put tables in at Center Point, 21 and we got those concrete preformed ones that -- Drymala did 22 them, and maybe those are the kind that you could put down 23 there and sustain. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Flood. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Flood. I don't know. It's 11-26-07 wk 14 1 certainly something to look at. That's all part of the 2 planning, Judge. We just need to brainstorm. And we're not 3 going to get it done today, but I think that kind of refines 4 what we need to do. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to continue running with 6 that ball? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: His precinct, so he should. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Since it's in my precinct, 10 I guess I will. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you've kind of been the 12 Court's parks guru, at least since I've been hanging around 13 here. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll take it. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I appreciate that effort on your 16 part. I know -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Will do. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: -- you did the last plan, and put 19 that together very ably for us. We appreciate it. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll do that. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner Baldwin and I are 22 still looking forward to having a frisbee golf course put in 23 at some point. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's still the best idea 25 of all. 11-26-07 wk 15 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Very easy, very inexpensive. 2 Anyway, maybe at Schreiner, you can get -- and not just 3 Schreiner, but youth tend to participate with that more, and 4 that would be a good activity. And there are -- all you have 5 to do is get those baskets. You can get them at any parks... 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Produce? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, no. Produce baskets too, 8 but I was thinking more of a parks catalog. A chain, you 9 throw them in. 10 MR. BOLLIER: I didn't hear what you said. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Frisbee golf course. 12 MR. BOLLIER: What about a miniature golf course? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Frisbee's more -- it's easier. 14 There's lot of places to go for golf. I'm talking about -- 15 you know, frisbee's fun. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Less maintenance. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You know, Tim, I -- I've 18 played golf all my life, and I still don't know how you play 19 frisbee golf. But -- 20 MR. BOLLIER: I've never really seen it. I 21 don't -- I'm like, "Okay." 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can see that there's a 23 small entry fee here, and some coaching lessons coming up. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Training subsidy. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Training subsidies, and... 11-26-07 wk 16 1 MR. BOLLIER: I was thinking -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go to Austin. 3 MR. BOLLIER: I've heard of it, but never seen it. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's a lot of fun. 5 MR. BOLLIER: I don't even know how to play. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You could get -- you could 7 get -- my big dream in the thing is to get the Schreiner 8 University kids interested in it, and that would take a 9 whopping five minutes, to where you'd have every student down 10 there throwing a frisbee around, and get -- get us to host a 11 little tournament, and then invite -- you have St. Mary's and 12 you have Trinity in San Antonio, and -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought you were going to try 14 to challenge the City Council. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's coming. That's 16 coming, but we're going to do that in the water. But... 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can see a frisbee contest 18 during the morning when they're out walking the dogs; that 19 would be exciting. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The dog park. I was 21 wondering when the dog park was going to come up. 22 MR. BOLLIER: You play it in the water? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. They're -- they're baskets 24 about this -- probably 3 feet in diameter. They're probably 25 5-, 6-foot poles, and on the poles there's a ring at the top 11-26-07 wk 17 1 that's maybe 2 foot in diameter, then a bigger one that's got 2 chain going -- swooping down. So, you're trying to get the 3 frisbee into the basket, and you hit the chain and it will 4 drop. So, rather than ricocheting off the -- put doglegs on 5 them, outbound, just like golf. You have three throws, two 6 throws. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like the little round 8 ball, myself. 9 MR. BOLLIER: I'd say we could have a whole lot 10 more fun. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You got -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: You know they have the international 13 chicken racing festivals down in Center Point. I think they 14 are working on their fourth annual. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, fourth or fifth. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: It's a major international event. 17 And we could have the international frisbee golf 18 championships here. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We could do that. I'm not 20 sure it would be part of the revised plan, but we could do 21 that. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you don't want to put it in 23 the plan. That might be giving too much public awareness. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If we jump off this just 25 for a second, Judge, can I tell the other members of the 11-26-07 wk 18 1 Court about the T.Y.C. thing and Cornerstone? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, sure can. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just F.Y.I. F.Y.I., I had 4 a call during the lunch break from the Cornerstone people, 5 and they have, I think, jumped through their final hoop, or 6 almost their final hoop at T.Y.C. for their application to 7 use our facility. And they want to come down -- T.Y.C. wants 8 to come down on Thursday to look at the facility one more 9 time. They've seen it before, 'cause I've conducted that 10 tour. So, if I can get -- ask you to get with Kevin, I'll 11 call Kevin after this meeting, make sure everything is -- 12 MR. BOLLIER: Working again. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- looking nice and the 14 place is in good shape. There will be a tour by T.Y.C., 15 Cornerstone, and yours truly and you, and be there on 16 Thursday morning. It's probably going to be at 10 o'clock. 17 So, if you identify any problems, they need to be taken care 18 of, or you'll know about it. 19 MR. BOLLIER: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. That's getting very 22 close. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Do the -- have we heard of another 25 target date of when they're going to actually put kids in 11-26-07 wk 19 1 residence? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The only thing that 3 Mr. Miller said to me on the phone was now that we have 4 gotten this far, all of a sudden they're in a hurry. They've 5 been dragging their feet now for months, and now they want to 6 get in a hurry. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Now that the shoe's on somebody 8 else's foot, it's time to move quickly. I see, okay. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll try and find that out, 10 Judge. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything more for the 12 workshop, gentlemen? We'll be adjourned. 13 (Commissioners Court workshop adjourned at 2:40 p.m.) 14 - - - - - - - - - - 15 STATE OF TEXAS | 16 COUNTY OF KERR | 17 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 18 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 19 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 20 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 21 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 30th day of November, 22 2007. 23 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 24 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 25 Certified Shorthand Reporter 11-26-07 wk