1 2 3 4 5 6 7 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 8 Workshop 9 Monday, February 11, 2008 10 2:20 p.m. 11 Commissioners' Courtroom 12 Kerr County Courthouse 13 Kerrville, Texas 14 15 16 17 COURTHOUSE WINDOWS/GROUNDS 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X February 11, 2008 2 PAGE 3 1. Participate in workshop with representative from 4 the Texas Historical Commission regarding the Kerr County Courthouse proposed window replacement 3 5 2. Participate in workshop with Maintenance Supervisor 6 regarding the courthouse grounds 25 7 --- Adjourned 33 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, February 11, 2008, at 2:20 p.m., a workshop 2 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I will convene a workshop of the 7 Commissioners Court posted and scheduled for Monday, 8 February 11th, 2008, at 1:30 p.m. As we all know, it's a bit 9 time that past now (sic). The first item on the agenda is to 10 participate in a workshop with representatives from Texas 11 Historical Commission regarding the Kerr County Courthouse 12 proposed window replacement. This matter was triggered by 13 notification to the Historical Commission pursuant to some 14 provision of the Government Code -- I can't find it -- that 15 requires you to advise if you're going to do something that 16 affects, I believe, the architectural integrity of a 17 courthouse that's 50 years old or older, and this building 18 is, in fact, over 50 years old. And we've discussed trying 19 to do something with these windows that have been a problem 20 for many, many years, and pursuant to that discussion, I put 21 the Texas Historical Commission on notice, as required by the 22 statute. I did receive the notification from the Commission 23 that they considered the proposed activity to, in fact, 24 affect the architectural integrity of a courthouse, which is 25 covered by that statute, and for, I believe, 180 days from 2-11-08 wk 4 1 the date of that notice, which was mid-January, mas or menos, 2 of this year, we are put in a holding pattern before we can 3 take further action on it. And representatives of the 4 Historical Commission wanted to have a sit-down and talk with 5 us, ergo we are here today, this afternoon. Is that it in a 6 nutshell, guys? 7 MR. GRAVES: Sounds about right, guys. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. In the meantime, I might add, 9 the communication said there are a number of artisans, 10 contractors, craftsmen around the state and other places that 11 have the ability to repair and/or renovate windows of the 12 type -- or presumably of the type that we have. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does "renovate" mean upgrade to 14 energy efficiency? 15 MR. GRAVES: May I? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Of course, I'm sorry. Come up and 17 make your pitch. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Before we go there, I'm 19 assuming that we're going to get into some of the state law? 20 MR. GRAVES: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: His opinion and your 22 opinion, et cetera? Wouldn't Rex need to be in here? 23 MR. LUTHER: I have the statute here, if you'd 24 like to have it. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we can get Rex in here if you 2-11-08 wk 5 1 like. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't you think -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think he had to go 4 somewhere. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Track meet at 5:00. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, he did say -- 'cause you want 7 to go too, don't you? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I am going. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: My understanding of the statute -- 10 and let me see that we're on the same page here -- is that 11 we're put in a holding pattern for 180 days, and if we decide 12 to go ahead with what we want to do, as long as we do it with 13 our own money, we just merely got to wait you out for 180 14 days and then go ahead and do whatever we want. Is that 15 essentially your understanding too? 16 MR. GRAVES: That's correct, Judge. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: You're given the 180 days to come 18 try and change our mind. 19 MR. GRAVES: And we always are successful. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. Because -- because you bring 21 a message of -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Money. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Because you bring a message of, "We 24 will give you money." 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 'Cause you control the 2-11-08 wk 6 1 purse strings, right? 2 MR. GRAVES: Among other things. Among other 3 things. If I may address that? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 MR. GRAVES: I appreciate it. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Go ahead. 7 MR. GRAVES: My name is Stan Graves, and I'm the 8 director of the Architecture Division and our Courthouse 9 Preservation Program at the Texas Historical Commission. So, 10 yes, you are very correct in your summation of the statute. 11 It came about -- I'll give you a little history of it. 12 Before I do, though, I want to introduce Tom Alexander; he's 13 one of 17 governor-appointed commissioners of our agency, and 14 a resident of Kerr County. 15 MR. ALEXANDER: Exactly. 16 MR. GRAVES: A voting resident of Kerr County. So, 17 I'll -- so I asked him to come with me today, 'cause usually 18 we don't have a commissioner that lives in the town we're 19 dealing with a county situation in. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: You brought the big guns with you 21 today. 22 MR. ALEXANDER: It's either a blessing or a curse, 23 Judge. 24 MR. GRAVES: Y'all know Joe as well. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The thing about him is, he 2-11-08 wk 7 1 only lives in one precinct; the other four of us couldn't 2 really care less about that. 3 MR. GRAVES: But he's capable of moving around. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not sure where he lives. Oh, 6 Bill's precinct? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Me or Jonathan. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, he's in Jonathan's. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where do you live? 11 MR. ALEXANDER: Summit. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Summit. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My precinct. 14 MR. GRAVES: Okay, got one vote there. 15 MR. ALEXANDER: There you go. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't count on it. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Don't bet on it. 18 MR. GRAVES: In 1974, the Texas Legislature passed 19 a piece of legislation, -- and that's what the Judge is 20 referring to -- 442.008, which talks about preservation of 21 historic Texas county courthouses, and they passed that law 22 because counties were doing despicable things to their county 23 courthouses, usually in the name of either energy efficiency 24 or progress or economy or growth or whatever. But we were -- 25 they were tearing down -- counties around the state were 2-11-08 wk 8 1 tearing -- literally tearing down their history. We lost, 2 like, 30 courthouses in the 1950's and '60's, just 3 magnificent buildings, irreplaceable. Usually a box went 4 back in their place. And a lot of other things happened; the 5 ceilings were lowered and roofs were chopped off and bell 6 towers were taken down and windows were replaced and dark 7 glass was put in. And so the Texas Legislature decided that 8 there needed to be at least a consultation process set up 9 between preservationists and Historical Commission folks and 10 county government when they wanted to do something to one of 11 these historic courthouses, and they passed this law. 12 And it's -- as the Judge said, it's a -- a very 13 mild law, and it's not -- there's no -- there's nothing 14 really that will mandate a preservation outcome; it just 15 mandates a consultation period, that 180-day period. And 16 since counties are political subdivisions of the state -- and 17 that was getting back to y'all's point that the State can 18 decide what counties are allowed to do, and this is one of 19 the things they said the State has an interest in and the 20 counties have an interest in these courthouses. We've got 21 the most counties of any state in the union. We've got the 22 most historic county courthouses. I think we've got the 23 finest collection of county courthouses, and part of that's 24 because in 1974, we stopped demolishing them and we started 25 preserving them. And so we work with counties, and we've 2-11-08 wk 9 1 given out a hundred -- well, $205 million as of right now to 2 counties around the state to restore these buildings and put 3 them back into good function and use. Y'all are not in that 4 program, and I'm not here to convince you that you need to 5 get into it, but someday you may want to if this program 6 continues. It's the best source of funds, 85 percent state 7 money to 15 percent local match, for taking care of these 8 historic landmarks. And the State feels like we have an 9 ownership interest in all of these historic county 10 courthouses, just like the people in each county do. 11 So, this brings you to the case here of your 12 windows. Y'all, I guess, discussed back and forth in the 13 summer -- late summer with us about the need to do something 14 on your windows. We always try to urge counties to preserve 15 the historic fabric of these courthouses, and the windows -- 16 it's very wonderful you have the original windows. Many of 17 them have been replaced around the state, so when you do have 18 them, they're really a precious asset to these buildings. 19 They're sort of the eyes of the building that people see when 20 they come up to it, and people see out of them. And they -- 21 they mean a lot to the history of the building, and these are 22 the original windows, and I think they're incredibly 23 well-built windows. I went around and looked at them a 24 little bit. There's some checked woods, some cracking wood, 25 there's some peeling paint. Putty's loose in a lot of these, 2-11-08 wk 10 1 but basically the wood is all sound; very little rot in the 2 wood on these windows. They're stained on the inside to 3 match the other stained woodwork in the building. 4 If you try to replace them, several things are 5 going to happen. You're going to try to get something that's 6 maintenance-free, which doesn't exist, so you're going to get 7 something with a different kind of maintenance. You're going 8 to get aluminum covers that will fade and chalk and do 9 something different and separate and not be repairable as 10 easily as these wood ones are. The inside will be a softer 11 wood that will soak up the stain. If you try to match this, 12 they'll look dark and black and won't have the wood grain 13 that these historic windows do, and they probably are not 14 going to be operable. I think the proposal is that they 15 become just one straight sheet of glass, so they won't -- you 16 know, you'll never be able to open them up. And so we'll 17 talk about energy conservation, but the ability to open up 18 windows when the electricity goes out is an energy 19 conservation feature in a building like this. Otherwise, you 20 end up having to shut it down. 21 So, what we do is, we urge you to restore these 22 windows and repair them. Like the Judge said, we sent a list 23 of a lot of contractors that do this kind of work. We've 24 given out 62 grants to county courthouses around the state 25 since 1999. All of those have kept their original windows or 2-11-08 wk 11 1 put them back in, if they had already taken them out, as part 2 of our program. So, we -- we have a lot of experience in 3 saving these windows. We think it's important to do that, 4 and we think we can make them more energy efficient and a 5 better economic investment for the County keeping these 6 windows than replacing them. I don't know what your bid is 7 for replacement windows, but maybe $150,000, I don't know, 8 $120,000. Whatever it is, we think it will take 30 to 40 9 years to pay that back just in energy savings. That's before 10 you get a dime back in your pocket, it'll be 30 or 40 years 11 from now. But you can upgrade these windows. 12 You can do things to make them more energy 13 efficient, just as they are right here. You can put in 14 weather stripping. You can caulk the upper sashes and fix 15 them. You can even put in new glass that's low-E glass if 16 you need to. You can also -- if you really need energy 17 conservation, you can put an interior storm window that's 18 just a full sheet of plexiglass that would come in the from 19 the inside and create that air space that a double window 20 does, so from the outside it looks original, but from the 21 inside, you've got another sheet there protecting the energy 22 flow. So, we want to work with you. We don't want to get 23 into a confrontation for the next six months, but we do want 24 to work with you to try to save these windows. This is an 25 original historic building to your community. It's only 2-11-08 wk 12 1 going to become more valuable and more unique as -- as other 2 buildings are torn down and as history marches on. This is 3 going to be a very, very important courthouse for this 4 community and the county, hopefully for the next 100 years. 5 It's already nearly 100 years old. 1926, I believe. 6 So, what we want to do is just work with you and 7 convince you that these windows are an important part of the 8 character of this building. They're part of the character of 9 the defining aspect of it, and to replace them, you're never 10 going to have the right look. And those people that travel 11 and do heritage tourism, they know a building that's got 12 replacement windows. They pop out at you. You begin to see 13 that they don't match; they don't have the little projections 14 down on the upper sash like these original ones do, and they 15 begin to devalue the building. The state capital in Austin 16 has its original wood windows. I'm working on a project 17 right now at the governor's mansion to preserve those 18 original wood windows from 1854. 19 So, I mean, you could have a modern, functional 20 building with wood windows in it, but they just need to have 21 the upgrade techniques that we're talking about. So, that's 22 basically our case. We're here to work with you and try to 23 convince you that preserving these windows is the right thing 24 to do. It will also allow you to become much higher in line 25 for a grant someday from us if you ever choose to do that. 2-11-08 wk 13 1 If not this Court, maybe one in five or ten years would want 2 to come in and get a grant. If you've replaced all your 3 windows, your -- your eligibility for historical designation 4 goes down, and so you're -- at least you'll go down to the 5 bottom of the list in that sense for having historical 6 designation and authenticity to reward with a grant program. 7 So, in some ways, you're closing the door to future courts if 8 they want to take advantage of some of our programs by taking 9 this action now, if you did replace all of these windows. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We should be at the top of the 11 list already, considering the amount we spent on the 12 renovation -- 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- five years ago. We didn't 15 ask for any money. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How often do we have to go 17 through this same process to get the windows upgraded? I 18 mean, how long is the restoration going to last? The last 19 restoration has been less than 10 years ago. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Seven years ago, something 21 like that. 22 MR. GRAVES: You're saying how often do you have to 23 repair the windows? 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How often do we have to 25 renovate these windows? 2-11-08 wk 14 1 MR. GRAVES: Probably you need to do some minimal 2 work to them every 10 years or so. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're going to be eligible for 4 another grant in 10 years to do it again? 5 MR. GRAVES: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What is your grant program 7 with respect to the rehabilitation of these windows? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Windows only. 9 MR. GRAVES: No. No, our program is for the entire 10 building. We're putting three to five million dollars into 11 each of these projects. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you not have a 13 windows-only program? 14 MR. GRAVES: At this point we have a small grant 15 program, but -- but it's only the courthouse program that 16 would be -- that we're considering for courthouses, and 17 that's typically how -- and it may be just for the windows, 18 but, frankly, that's going to score lower than a county 19 that's willing to come in and do everything that needs to be 20 done, or -- 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We've done a whole lot to 22 this thing to restore it and keep it. 23 MR. GRAVES: It's a nice building, and I think it's 24 functioning well for you. But, you know, I wouldn't -- 25 windows need to be repaired and repainted from the outside 2-11-08 wk 15 1 probably every ten years, and that's just the life of 2 historic fabric. But if that's done -- and I think that's 3 probably been done, because these windows are in quite good 4 condition, really. There's really nothing wrong with them. 5 Never been weatherstripped. They've never been properly 6 caulked and sealed. There is, obviously, you know, no 7 glazing. There's some filming I've seen that's been applied, 8 but there's no windows that have been -- glass that's been 9 changed out, so if you really want to do a super energy 10 efficiency upgrade, you could do that and keep these windows. 11 But just the regular maintenance, probably every 8 to 10 12 years. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just remember the last guy 14 that we had do this was actually on the Historical 15 Commission, and also the architect that oversaw the total 16 reconstruction and renovation, remodeling of this building. 17 And, like I say, seven years ago is not a very long time to 18 have to go through this again. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We didn't do the windows then. 20 We just -- 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We did some of them. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We did them, only -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Some, but not all. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay, some of them. 25 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 2-11-08 wk 16 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- and you've already given 2 the Judge a list of people that do this. Well, we'll go out 3 and ask for -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Question. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- bids. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: You already answered one. One was 7 whether or not you got a grant program just for windows. 8 Yes, you do, but you don't. I mean, that's the simple 9 answer, isn't it? 10 MR. GRAVES: Yeah, similar answer. It would not 11 score well coming up for just a tiny little scope of work 12 when we've got -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: You can do the work -- put all the 14 work into filing the application, and your chances of getting 15 a successful award are slim and none. 16 MR. GRAVES: If that was the only thing you were 17 applying for -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We've done everything else. 19 MR. GRAVES: Yeah, you're in good shape. You're 20 unlike most counties, which are -- let the whole thing, you 21 know, get to a state where they need a lot of help. I don't 22 know. We haven't had any real -- we've had a -- now, Bell 23 County, I think, has applied for just air conditioning and 24 some more minor things. They didn't score too well. So, 25 you -- you can do that, but I just don't think it would be 2-11-08 wk 17 1 the cost-effective thing from my point of view. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Second question. You say there are 4 62 counties that have rehabbed their windows, I believe is 5 what you mentioned? 6 MR. GRAVES: There's 62 counties that have received 7 grants from us, and all of those have had to commit to 8 keeping their original windows, if they exist, or to put them 9 back. Some of those are under way right now. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. But those were complete 11 courthouse grants, and not just window-type situations? 12 MR. GRAVES: Correct. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Of those that -- that had 14 wood window rehab renovation, would it be possible for you to 15 provide us with a list of those counties? 16 MR. GRAVES: Yes. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Where I'm going with this is to ask 18 those folks, "Who did your window rehab?" 19 MR. GRAVES: Right. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, did they take forever and 21 a day? Cost an arm and a leg? Or walk off the job and leave 22 you in a mess, or whatever. 23 MR. GRAVES: We haven't had any courthouse projects 24 that have gone to completion, so none of them -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand they didn't get their 2-11-08 wk 18 1 final money. 2 MR. GRAVES: They've all -- they've all been under 3 way. Some of them -- Shackelford County, nearby one that's 4 done theirs. What -- Sutton County down here has done 5 theirs. Llano County's done theirs. Not Gillespie. 6 Lampasas has done theirs. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I think y'all are just about to 8 finally get the clock tower back on the Llano County 9 courthouse? 10 MR. GRAVES: That's right, that's just finishing 11 up. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They are close -- getting 13 close over there. Beautiful facility. 14 MR. GRAVES: Restorhaus is one of the companies 15 that does a lot of the mill work and window work out of 16 Lubbock. Hull Restoration out of Forth Worth is doing a lot 17 of it. Review is a big company up out of the Oklahoma area. 18 So, I mean, we can give you names of ones that we've worked 19 with. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They're doing Bandera right 21 now, right? 22 MR. GRAVES: What's that? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bandera? 24 MR. GRAVES: Bandera, we did a project over there 25 that's already finished up, yeah. They got a grant from us 2-11-08 wk 19 1 as well. That was a smaller grant. They didn't do a 2 complete job, but they did some -- the roof and tower and 3 some things over there, I think a new elevator. So, I mean, 4 we want to work with you. But, you know, it's really -- this 5 building is -- it's a historic artifact. And just like if 6 you had an antique car, that car would be more valuable if it 7 had the original engine in it, or the original windows in it. 8 And every time you take away a piece of that original fabric, 9 and certainly something as obvious as the windows are, you 10 devalue that historical resource. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's been a lot of money 12 spent on this renovation on both parts of this courthouse. 13 The first was this part, and then the annex, and the annex 14 has the new facade put on it to cover up the old tilt wall 15 concrete that was there when it was originally built to try 16 to make it all have some continuity. And there were even 17 wooden windows put in, you know, and now those wooden windows 18 are deteriorating as well. 19 MR. GRAVES: And if it would be -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: They're in need of maintenance, 21 exactly. 22 MR. GRAVES: And I don't -- I don't think that -- 23 if you really wanted to do some aluminum or vinyl windows or 24 something, I don't think we would have a lot of problem, you 25 know, doing it in that annex building, 'cause it's not 2-11-08 wk 20 1 considered historic yet. It's not of that age. So, I mean, 2 you know, we might could compromise where you could get a 3 whole lot of more maintenance-free windows at a whole lot 4 higher cost, I think, in that building, but commit to saving 5 these in this building, I think would be important. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think from here, I'd kind of 7 like to get proposals for restoring these windows. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And proposals at the same time, 10 really, for new windows, so we can see what the new one would 11 look like, get some samples of what they can do. I mean, 12 I've never tried to restore a window or match an old window. 13 MR. GRAVES: And that will be the thing; compare 14 apples to apples, because a lot of the window salesmen will 15 come in and tell you, "We can make it look like that." They 16 end up, they can't do profiles that are this thin in the new 17 materials. They end up being thicker, so you get less glass. 18 They always -- their stock windows don't ever perfectly fit 19 like the historic window does; they end up filling in or 20 expanding on one side or the other, and then they put them in 21 the same pan; they don't do the little extensions that are 22 below each upper sash. I mean, to really get a custom 23 window, a new window that's customized to look like these is 24 usually very, very expensive, and that's what you need to 25 compare, the value of these if you had to completely, 2-11-08 wk 21 1 accurately replace them. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And also, I'd like to know what 3 the cost of storm windows might be -- storm windows, if we 4 put the other window plexiglass -- 5 MR. GRAVES: Interior painted storm windows. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Interior painted. See what the 7 costs are there as well. 8 MR. GRAVES: Those are magnetically sealed from the 9 inside. They are very, very energy efficient, if you're 10 going for energy efficiency in a cold climate. I don't think 11 they're really cost-effective, particularly in this climate, 12 but if do you want higher energy efficiency, they do that. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, a lot of what we got is -- the 14 fact that there's a lot of heat -- they're not airtight, 15 number one, and that's a tremendous part of our problem. 16 And -- and then, of course, you got that single pane glass, 17 and the heat -- heat and cold transfer is pretty easy through 18 there. Our Maintenance Supervisor had a question. 19 MR. BOLLIER: Only question to you is, do you know 20 what the inside of those windows look like? I -- like, the 21 windows along the side of the courthouse, where the framework 22 is, what it looks like inside there. Is that all rotted? 23 MR. GRAVES: I suspect not. Every time -- 24 MR. BOLLIER: Are you going to be able to -- you 25 can't -- you can't tell that from here, so that's telling me 2-11-08 wk 22 1 that you're going to have to take that window apart to tell 2 me what's in there. There's a lot of those window frames 3 that's -- on the outside that are -- that are gone. They're 4 rotted, a lot of them -- most of them, all around the outside 5 of the building. I know, 'cause I did it myself. 6 MR. GRAVES: I'd be glad, after the meeting, to go 7 around and look at some of those with you. My experience is 8 that you don't get rot inside of the window pocket first. 9 You get it on the outside first, because that's where the 10 ingrain is. You get it on the ingrain of the sashes and the 11 ingrain of the side facings that come down. 12 MR. BOLLIER: Are we going to be able to restore 13 those windows to be able to open those windows? Are those 14 windows going to stay closed? Because every window in this 15 courthouse is almost impossible to open. 16 MR. GRAVES: Right. What I'm -- 17 MR. BOLLIER: I mean, are they going to be able to 18 restore those to where you can open them and all of that 19 stuff and make them right? 20 MR. GRAVES: Well, I think the County would need to 21 decide which windows they want to have operable and which 22 they don't want to have operable. That's the first step you 23 do in a project like this. I would suggest you have a few 24 windows in every office operable, but you don't need to 25 necessarily have every window operable. You could save some 2-11-08 wk 23 1 money by, say, making that one operable and this one 2 operable, and the others you might want to fix, and then you 3 can seal those up so you don't get any air leaks, and -- but 4 those you do keep operable. If you wanted them all open, 5 that's great, but you put a new track. This -- this window 6 just slides wood against wood now. What they do when they 7 restore these windows is, they go in and they mill out along 8 the edge, on the edge where that slides, and they put either 9 stripping -- usually bronze, and they put a track on the 10 window itself, so you actually groove it in there so it 11 doesn't show, but it's in there, and then you're sliding up 12 and down, you know, bronze against bronze, and it works a lot 13 better. Or you could have vinyl tracks inside of there, and 14 that becomes a much better way; you don't get that shrinking 15 and swelling and sticking like you do with a wood-to-wood 16 window. So, that's the first step. You also put 17 weatherstripping across the bottom, where the bottom rail 18 hits the sill. You end up with a little weatherstripping 19 piece, and that window goes over it and seals tight there, so 20 you don't get air coming through that spot. And then where 21 the two meeting rails meet, you put weatherstripping on both 22 sides of those, so when they close, right where they meet, 23 that seals off that air spot as well. So, there is ways to 24 make it more operable, easier to operate, but also achieve 25 energy efficiency. 2-11-08 wk 24 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: If you'll provide us with the 3 information on those 62 counties, and I have the information 4 on the -- that you previously provided on the various -- and 5 they were specifically wood window -- well, that was just 6 window contractors, and there it was broken down; this one 7 does wood and this one does wood and something else, and -- 8 MR. GRAVES: I'll try to get you, like, five or ten 9 of the ones that have done our courthouse work, the mill 10 workers that did the window restoration work. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I'd greatly appreciate that. 12 MR. GRAVES: We'll do that. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: We can get a better handle on where 14 we're going. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Especially the ones that 16 completed the job and in a timely manner. 17 MR. GRAVES: Yeah. Yeah, we will definitely get 18 that to you. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: On time. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: On budget. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: On budget. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Under budget. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I'd settle for within budget. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Mr. Graves. 25 MR. GRAVES: Thank y'all. 2-11-08 wk 25 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate it. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sorry you had to wait. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: We've all become window experts, by 4 golly. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Almost. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, next item, workshop with the 7 Maintenance Supervisor regarding courthouse grounds. We got 8 about half of it left to go. The trees are pretty well off 9 the -- off the table now, aren't they, Tim? 10 MR. BOLLIER: Sir? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The trees are pretty well off the 12 table? 13 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. We don't have to worry 14 about those. What do y'all want to know? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's next? 16 MR. BOLLIER: I have a list back -- I gave y'all a 17 sheet. On the back, on the second page, there's seven things 18 that I listed there that need to be done out this side, 19 like -- well, like, now we're trimming the trees. But, like, 20 in the front here, we have irrigation. I mean -- yeah, 21 irrigation around the yard. And a lot of that, you know, 22 with the way we have put the gazebo out there and things, 23 that all needs to be redone, and water -- because it's not 24 getting -- the grass isn't getting water where it needs to 25 get water. That make sense? 2-11-08 wk 26 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 2 MR. BOLLIER: And, like, the electrical lines that 3 are all going up -- that go up on all the trees. When I 4 talked to Mark Duff about all that, he told me that was one 5 of the worst things that we could do, was have that 6 electricity in those trees. Now, why, they never gave me a 7 total explanation. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who told you that? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mark Duff. He's with Texas 10 Forest Service, who came and helped Tim with trees. I've 11 talked to Tim quite a bit about this, and my thought would 12 be, if the Court's willing to go along with it, I think we 13 need irrigation, and electrical needs to be done first. 14 Irrigation hasn't been good as long as I've been a 15 Commissioner. I mean, it's just been kind of piecemealed and 16 put together. Parts of it may be salvageable. Probably not. 17 Electrical, who knows what's out there? 18 MR. BOLLIER: Most of that, I can show you out here 19 where you can just take your foot and scratch over it, once 20 you find it, and you can uncover that electrical. It's not 21 that deep. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's really pretty dangerous. 23 It's real dangerous, and my thought would be that -- on the 24 irrigation part of it, I wrote the specs for the terminal at 25 the airport and gave it to Bruce McKenzie, and they went out 2-11-08 wk 27 1 and got proposals using that. I think it's real important -- 2 you can't just go out to these companies and just say, "Give 3 us a bid," 'cause you don't know what you're getting. You've 4 got to be able to compare apples to apples. And I don't 5 think there's any kind of conflict if I just prepare the 6 specs and let Tim go with that. My recommendation would be 7 to do that first, get the electrical -- get someone, you 8 know, either from one of the electrical companies around, or 9 the one that we contract with, come out here and look at that 10 a little bit, and get two numbers. Get the irrigation 11 number, electrical number, and see where it is, and then make 12 a decision what we're going to do. And I would do it 13 concentrated on the area inside the main parking drive, and 14 outside the area, Area A and B, 'cause we may have to do it 15 in two phases depending what the numbers come in at. And 16 once you get those two things done where it's not going to be 17 changed again, the conduit's in place, then I think you look 18 at what you're going to do with the grass and flower beds. 19 You need to go as low maintenance as possible. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Didn't the lighting group put in a 21 lot of that electrical? 22 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir, from my knowledge. I mean, 23 from what I've been told. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I know they put it in on the outside 25 island portion. 2-11-08 wk 28 1 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. I believe the only thing 2 that -- that has actually been put in by the -- by the County 3 -- by us is what's out there by the flagpole. You know, the 4 big lights that shine up on the flagpole, and that -- and the 5 electric work that was out there for the water fountain. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All the lights that shine 7 on the building. 8 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here in the circle. 10 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Conduit is cheap; the wire is 12 pretty expensive. And that can all get pulled out, and most 13 of it probably reused. 14 MR. BOLLIER: Some of it. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the reason I say that, if 16 you're going to redo the irrigation, you know, cost of a 17 ditch in the yard is so much, you wouldn't care about 18 electrical. If it's shallow like Tim thinks it is, most of 19 it -- if any of it's deep enough, try to reuse it. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Would it not -- would it not 21 make sense to remove whatever dirt needs to be removed and do 22 some -- do the drainage part of this thing and make sure our 23 drainage is all draining properly before we actually ditch 24 and -- 25 MR. BOLLIER: You also got to remember that 2-11-08 wk 29 1 sidewalk out in front, too. Some of those roots are pushing 2 that sidewalk, so before you go through there and dig a lot 3 of -- you know, a lot of ditches, we need to do something 4 with that sidewalk, you know, right up here by the circle 5 part where it's, you know, being all pushed up. And I don't 6 know if that means that we need to think about ripping that 7 sidewalk out and redoing it and adding some dirt in there 8 before or what. What are you going to do with the roots? 9 You can't just go in there and cut them out; you're going to 10 have to cover them back up. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the sidewalk needs 12 to -- get a number for that. I think on the drainage, from 13 looking -- I haven't -- obviously haven't done any research 14 type, looking at it from doing a job out here. I don't think 15 we have to add -- I mean take away very much, really. I 16 think we have low spots; I think you need -- that needs to 17 all be done, I think, at the same time. But the reason -- I 18 think you can get an irrigation number and an electrical 19 number. Those are going to be outside contractors. The bulk 20 of the other work I think Tim can oversee through community 21 service or trustees or whatever, and with a little bit of 22 guidance from Master Gardeners or me or -- you know. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think that's a good program 24 for you to get involved in, with your expertise. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 2-11-08 wk 30 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because, you know, that's one 2 of those contributions you make to the community as being a 3 commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a pro bono oversight 5 deal. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I was going to suggest a committee 7 of one to oversee this thing. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think that's a good idea. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think Commissioner Letz 10 ought to head up that committee of one. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Luckily, you can't make an 12 appointment today in a workshop, but I'll be glad to work 13 with Tim on this flow problem. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One question comes to mind. 15 What, if anything, are we going to do about electrical in the 16 trees, since somebody's told us that's not a good idea? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- you put the -- 18 the outlets -- instead of having them up in the tree, put 19 them down on the ground. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Don't attach them to the tree. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But some weatherproofing. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Weatherproof electrical. 24 MR. BOLLIER: If you go and look in each one of 25 these big -- I'm going to call them big trees, 'cause I don't 2-11-08 wk 31 1 know what they are. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Cedars. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Cedar trees. 4 MR. BOLLIER: Cedar trees on the corner, you'll see 5 that they have -- every -- every one of those trees have some 6 kind of breaker box in them. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 8 MR. BOLLIER: Every one of them. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They all need to come out. 10 MR. BOLLIER: We even have our irrigation sprinkler 11 system attached to the cedar tree by 27 and Earl Garrett. 12 So, I'm like, you know, all that stuff just needs to be -- it 13 needs to be done up right. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I visited -- a lot of that 15 stuff, I visited with the County Attorney once before on it. 16 A lot of the materials, getting to the point of sod or 17 irrigation stuff, I can contact the ones that I do a lot of 18 business with, and then the County can buy direct through 19 those companies and kind of use my account, but not billed 20 through me at all. I'm totally out of it; just getting the 21 price on it. Or maybe Tim can get a cheaper price than I can 22 get, I don't know, on some of that stuff. And all those you 23 can get -- like, I found with sod-type work, they'll do 24 installation of it, and be -- I mean, I use their 25 installation crews on any kind of a large project, because 2-11-08 wk 32 1 it's a lot cheaper than I can hire local people to do it or 2 anyone. So, I'll be glad to work on that, and I think it can 3 be done. It's going to be expensive, but it's not going to 4 be backbreaking. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just think it's long 6 overdue. We used to fuss at Frankie Speakman about getting 7 something done some years ago, and that didn't work, and now 8 we have more clover than we have grass. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now that Tim's killed the 10 weeds, we got a lot of dirt. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. Well, that's a start. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're going the right 13 direction. But I'll be glad to work with Tim on that, get 14 some specifications on the irrigation part of it, and they 15 can go out for -- plenty of good contractors in the community 16 do irrigation work. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We appreciate your 18 volunteering to do this. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Generous offer. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I figured y'all -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: You don't think it's necessary we 23 put it on the next agenda for formal action, do you? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Actually, I wouldn't mind, just 25 considering the whole situation. But I'm just as -- 2-11-08 wk 33 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do we need to make it an 2 agenda item? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll just volunteer to work 4 with Tim. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Long as we can see your 6 shoulder to the wheel, we'll go with that, but if you slack 7 up, we're going to -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If you slack up, we're going 9 to chastise you. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Put it on the agenda and make 11 me do it? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: There you go. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Make you volunteer. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, gentlemen? Okay. 15 Well, we'll fold this one up and we'll be adjourned of the 16 workshop. 17 (Commissioners Court workshop adjourned at 2:50 p.m.) 18 - - - - - - - - - - 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-11-08 wk 34 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 22nd day of February, 8 2008. 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-11-08 wk