1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, April 14, 2008 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X April 14, 2008 2 PAGE --- Commissioners' Comments 6 3 1.1 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 4 request from Ducks Unlimited to have various fees waived for their event at HCYEC 8 5 1.2 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 6 statements and questions from Mr. Robert Skaggs regarding the burn ban 12 7 1.3 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 8 approve pest control, HVAC, and electrical contracts as recommended by Maintenance super- 9 visor after review of bids submitted; authorize County Judge to sign same 13 10 1.4 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 11 replacing some air conditioning units at the jail 14 12 1.5 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on part-time salaries and other related issues 13 concerning operations of the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center 16 14 1.7 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 15 change private road name Juliana Bluff E. to Raymond Mosty Lane E. 24 16 1.8 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action con- 17 cerning a 90-day extension to complete Megan Manor and Western Surety maintenance bond #70271788 25 18 1.9 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 19 award annual bids for Road & Bridge materials 27 20 1.10 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action for revision of plat, Ingram Hills, Lot 25; set 21 public hearing 28 22 1.11 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action for revision of plat for Lots 23 & 24W in The Reserve 23 at Falling Water Subdivision; set public hearing 29 24 1.6 Public Hearing for Revision of Plat for Tract 3, Theodore & Dorothea Oehler Estate 32 25 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) April 14, 2008 2 PAGE 1.14 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 3 retaining one of the older vehicles from Environ- mental Health to use as a courthouse vehicle 35 4 1.17 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 5 establish a juvenile court docketing and reporting system with sufficient capacity to comply with 6 Family Code and OCA requirements 42 7 1.19 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve proclamation to declare May 1st, 2008, 8 "National Day of Prayer" 53 9 1.20 Consider/discuss renovating original Juvenile Detention Facility into office space and dry 10 storage space 54 11 1.12 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on request from Archway Recovery Outpatient Treatment 12 Center to be a preferred provider for Kerr County Employees for drug and alcohol treatment 59 13 1.13 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 14 approve proclamation to declare April 21st, 2008, to be "San Jacinto Day" 66 15 1.15 Public Hearing to abandon, vacate, and discontinue 16 a 15 ft. reserve strip and the portion of Church Street that lies within the Tomm property 69 17 1.16 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 18 abandon, vacate and discontinue a 15 ft. reserve strip and the portion of Church Street that lies 19 within the Tomm property 70 20 1.18 Consider/discuss, take appropriate actions to approve exempting Kerrville Elks Lodge #2081 from 21 Real Property and Business Personal Property Taxes 71 22 1.21 Updates on improvements and cleanup plans at Flat Rock Lake Park 78 23 1.22 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 24 proposal from Guardian Security Solutions to furnish and install video teleconferencing 25 system in Kerr county Courthouse and Jail 88 4 1 I N D E X (Continued) April 14, 2008 2 PAGE 3 1.23 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action regarding real estate matters (Executive Session) -- 4 1.24 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 5 amendment of Commissioners Court Order No. 29142, adopting Kerr County Nuisance Abatement Program, 6 to designate the Environmental Health Director as director of that program 96 7 1.25 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on the 8 presentation of audits on Sheriff's Petty Cash & Leasing Procedures for Ag Barn and Union Church 98 9 1.26 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 10 joint City and County functions 99 11 1.27 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action concerning using the inmate work program for 12 designated 501(c)(3) organizations 110 13 1.28 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action concerning Kerr County Sheriff's Office personnel 14 in regards to inmate records 115 15 1.29 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action concerning Kerr County Sheriff's Office jail 16 personnel in regards to inmate medical (Executive Session) 125 17 1.30 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 18 coordination and work redistribution for administration of elections (Executive Session) --- 19 4.1 Pay Bills 126 20 4.2 Budget Amendments 131 4.3 Late Bills --- 21 4.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 132 22 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee Assignments 133 23 --- Adjourned 138 24 25 5 1 On Monday, April 14, 2008, at 9:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 8 Let me call to order this regularly scheduled meeting of the 9 Kerr County Commissioners Court posted and scheduled for this 10 time and date, Monday, April 14, 2008, at 9 a.m. It is that 11 time now. Commissioner Letz? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Please stand and join me in a 13 moment of prayer followed by the pledge. 14 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. At this time, if there's 16 any member of the public or the audience that wishes to be 17 heard on any matter that is not a listed agenda item, feel 18 privileged to come forward at this time and tell us what's on 19 your mind. If you wish to be heard on an agenda item, we'd 20 ask that you fill out a participation form at the rear of the 21 room. That's not essential. If we get to an item that you 22 wish to be heard on and you have not filled out a 23 participation form, get my attention in some fashion and I'll 24 see that you have that opportunity. But right now, if 25 there's any member of the public or the audience that wishes 4-14-08 6 1 to be heard on any matter that is not a listed agenda item, 2 please feel free to come forward at this time and tell us 3 what's on your mind. Seeing no one coming forward, we'll 4 move on. Commissioner Letz? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't really have anything, 6 other than we got a pretty good frost this morning. Unusual. 7 That's about all I have. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't have anything. We 9 got a long agenda. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I got a couple of things. 11 Just wanted to -- we've lost another great citizen; our good 12 friend Paul Barr passed away, and the funeral is today. Paul 13 was the Superintendent of Schools here for many years, and -- 14 and helped build all the new stuff that we know as new today. 15 And a great guy, and I think he was my superintendent, as 16 well as Bruce's, back in the olden days. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we lift his family up; 19 remember them. There's a good chance I will be putting the 20 burn ban on tomorrow. I understand that the winds are going 21 to start picking up again tonight, so there's a possibility 22 of the little red alert -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Red flag warning. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Red flag may come back into 25 our area tomorrow. If that's the case, I'm going to put the 4-14-08 7 1 ban on. I wanted to let you know about Rex's son, Garrett, 2 Tivy High School track athlete, is -- placed very high in 3 district in the discus, and he will be throwing this weekend 4 in Fredericksburg at a little warm-up thing -- or, actually, 5 it's a big warm-up thing. And the following week, he'll be 6 at Alamo Stadium in San Antonio at the regional, which is a 7 big deal. Our -- our region is Austin, San Antonio, Corpus, 8 Kerrville, Del Rio. Big, big area; a lot of really good 9 athletes show up down there. It was kind of funny, the -- 10 what's -- what college is that, Trinity? 11 MR. EMERSON: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's Trinity University, and 13 it's a cow pasture -- not much more than a cow pasture where 14 he throws. It goes uphill, doesn't it, Rex? 15 MR. EMERSON: Yes, it does. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He throws uphill; it's the 17 goofiest thing you've ever seen in your life. So, he's -- 18 Rex is telling me he's changing his entire style to throw 19 uphill. But he threw down there last year, so he's very 20 familiar with them. Good kid. Very excited about him, and 21 if y'all don't have anything to do next week, go to Alamo 22 Stadium to watch Rex's boy. That's all. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Bill? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All quiet. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's get on with the 4-14-08 8 1 business at hand. First item on the agenda was a timed item 2 for 9 o'clock. It's a bit past that now because of our 3 opening matters. Consider, discuss, take appropriate action 4 on request from Ducks Unlimited to have various fees waived 5 for their event at Hill country Youth Exhibit Center on 6 October the 30th, 2008. Mr. Schmerber? Feel free to come 7 forward. This is Scotty Schmerber, who is an officer with 8 Ducks Unlimited in the local chapter; is that correct? 9 MR. SCHMERBER: That's correct. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, sir. 11 MR. SCHMERBER: Thank y'all. Like Judge Tinley 12 said, we're just looking for a little variance here, little 13 help. As y'all know, every year we budget, just like y'all 14 do. In '05 I paid $262.50. In '06, I paid $230.50. '07, I 15 paid $230.50 cents. If all things go well this year, I'm 16 looking at paying $1,783.50. That's an 800 percent increase. 17 Now, I don't mind pulling my share, but I'm having to pay an 18 Ag Barn rental, a setup and take-down fee for chairs that I'm 19 going to have to purchase, and tables, which is $833.50. 20 Then I get charged for taking them up, putting them down. 21 So, like I say, with all of that, I'm looking at $1,483.50, 22 and then a $300 cleanup deposit, which I don't mind at all, 23 because Tim needs that for our guys. I don't know what y'all 24 can do for me. Just help me. We are a 501(c)(3); we do 25 provide our own insurance, of course, $2 million. We do 4-14-08 9 1 provide our own security. Tommy Rodriguez comes in with a 2 couple of guys and we do that, too. So -- and most of y'all 3 know who we are and what we do. I don't have to tell you 4 that. I'm just looking for a little help somewhere, whatever 5 y'all can do. I don't mind paying my own way, believe me. 6 We do have the money for that. I just -- but I have to 7 answer to other people too, and when they see that kind of 8 increase, they're going to -- they're going to ask what's 9 going on. So -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What rate was it -- were they 11 quoted, Jody? Just the regular? 12 MS. GRINSTEAD: I think that included the 350. 13 MR. SCHMERBER: $350 Ag Barn rental, $300 setup and 14 take-down, 75 cents for every chair, and we use every one of 15 them, which is 450. $4 a table, and we use every table for 16 our auction items and for eating, and that's 36 8-footers and 17 88 6-footers. So, like I said, that alone is $1,483.50. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're not getting the 19 nonprofit rate right now, the 50 percent reduction? 20 MS. GRINSTEAD: That quote does not -- no, the 21 nonprofit -- it's just the $350 rental fee is waived, not 22 50 percent. 23 MR. SCHMERBER: Even at 350, I'd rather you charge 24 me the Ag Barn rental and take away the chairs and tables. 25 That's the big burden, $833 for tables and chairs that I have 4-14-08 10 1 to have. I mean, if I rent an Ag Barn, that -- I just don't 2 need the space; I need tables and chairs. So I'm getting -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, -- 4 MR. SCHMERBER: -- double-dipped here. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the tables and chairs, we've 6 got a -- my mind is not to waive that, and the reason is, 7 that's a recovery. We have a lot invested there, that they 8 have to be replaced on a periodic basis. That's how we do 9 it. It's not going to be paid for by the taxpayers of the 10 county. I have no problem adding you to the nonprofit list, 11 which gives you the $350 break. 12 MR. SCHMERBER: So -- and with that $350 out, I'm 13 still looking at a 620 percent increase over the last three 14 years. I know we have to get in line here, but a 620 percent 15 increase? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, look at the other side. 17 You got a great deal for all the years before. I don't mean 18 to be difficult, but -- 19 MR. SCHMERBER: I don't call it a great deal. I 20 mean, we're still talking -- you know, and as far as tables, 21 I can see the wear and tear on those. And they are wore and 22 tore, 'cause -- 'cause we have to, you know, put the 23 tablecloths over all of them. So -- but like I said, $4 a 24 table and 75 cents a chair -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Scotty, our purpose was to 4-14-08 11 1 standardize the rates for everybody. And we created a list 2 of not-for-profits; if you qualify, if you fit the list for 3 not-for-profits, you're there, but the rentals for tables and 4 chairs is standard for everybody. 5 MR. SCHMERBER: Okay. And I understand that, but 6 just as long as the -- that this is going to be standard for 7 everybody. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It is. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It is, and it's also -- you 10 know, if you wanted to set them up and take them down and 11 clean up all your mess and haul off all the trash too, you 12 know, that's a big consideration. It takes a lot of time and 13 manpower to do that. 14 MR. SCHMERBER: It does. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I mean, and we have to do it 16 with whatever we have available. Sometimes we have community 17 service, sometimes we don't, and it costs a lot of money to 18 do all that, and a lot of time. So, you know, it's just -- 19 it was too cheap for too long. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, we have -- I don't 21 know; you're probably the fifth or sixth person since the 22 first of the year that's come in for a -- a variance. We 23 have treated everybody the same. If they're a non -- if 24 they're a 501(c)(3), they get that same discount. Everything 25 else has been the same. 4-14-08 12 1 MR. SCHMERBER: Well, like I said, as long as it's 2 across the table, I don't have anything to say about it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's across the table. 4 MR. SCHMERBER: All right, that's it. Thank y'all. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Any formal action needed 7 on that item? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we have to take action to 9 make a -- I make a motion that we add Ducks Unlimited to the 10 nonprofit list. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 13 indicated. Question or discussion on the motion? All in 14 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Thank you, 19 Mr. Schmerber. 20 MR. SCHMERBER: Thank y'all very much. Appreciate 21 it. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 2; consider, discuss, and take 23 appropriate action on statements and questions from 24 Mr. Roberts Skaggs regarding the burn ban. Is Mr. Skaggs 25 present? 4-14-08 13 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll move on to Item 3; consider, 3 discuss, take appropriate action to approve pest control, 4 HVAC, and electrical contracts as recommended by the 5 Maintenance Department supervisor after review of the bids 6 submitted, and authorize County Judge to sign same. 7 Mr. Bollier, you've reviewed the bids, and based upon that 8 review, it appears you've recommended, as primary pest 9 control, Hill Country Pest Control. 10 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: HVAC, Compton's of Kerrville. 12 MR. BOLLIER: Electrical would be D.W. Electric. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: And electrical, D.W. Electric. Is 14 that correct? 15 MR. BOLLIER: That's correct. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: And based upon your review, you're 17 asking that those be approved as the primary bidders, with 18 the understanding that if those folks aren't available, 19 you're free to call secondary or other -- other vendor 20 sources in order to get the work accomplished? 21 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there any change, Tim, 24 from last year? 25 MR. BOLLIER: No, sir. 4-14-08 14 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The same three? 2 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I make a motion we approve the 4 recommendation -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- of the Maintenance Director 7 related to bids -- annual bids. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And authorize me to sign the 9 contracts? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Authorize County Judge to sign 11 the contracts. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a second over here from one? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and second. 15 Questions or discussion on the motion? All in favor of the 16 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Next Item, 21 Number 4; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on 22 replacing some of the air conditioning units at the Kerr 23 County Jail. Mr. Bollier, this, I assume, is in connection 24 with the -- I believe we budgeted in the Jail Maintenance 25 budget a total of $50,000 for the purpose of addressing the 4-14-08 15 1 air conditioning unit problem at the jail; is that correct? 2 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: And are you wanting to seek bids? 4 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: In order to replace one or more of 6 those units on a -- on a unit cost basis? 7 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. There's a total of five 8 that I'd like to get replaced up there. And they're starting 9 to get stress cracks; they're starting -- and I think it's 10 Unit 3 or 4 that we're having problems with almost on a 11 weekly basis right now. We just replaced another compressor 12 in there, and that compressor is $3,000 or more, and I can't 13 see going on and keep replacing compressors in these 14 air-conditioners when they are old as they are. And I would 15 just like to start with, like, five of them. I don't know if 16 we will have the money to replace all five of them, but at 17 least we can get three or four of them replaced and get 18 started. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I make -- 20 MR. BOLLIER: And then maybe next year, we can do 21 the same. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that we 23 authorize the Maintenance Director to go out for bids on five 24 units at the Kerr County Jail. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 4-14-08 16 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 2 indicated. Question or discussion on the motion? All in 3 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's move 8 to Item 5; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on 9 part-time salaries and other related issues concerning the 10 operations of the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center. 11 Mr. Bollier? 12 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. This is -- this is on a 13 matter that happened a couple of weeks ago, or back during 14 Good Friday and Easter Sunday. Well, since the stock show, 15 my overtime money is gone, shortly afterwards. These -- my 16 guys had asked if, for 2009, that they could have the weekend 17 of Good Friday and Easter Sunday off. They work basically 18 every weekend. They work seven days a week, basically. They 19 get very -- very few three-day holidays. And right now, I'm 20 still trying to hire somebody for -- for the guy that quits's 21 position, and we just don't have enough people to go around. 22 That's the whole problem. I've got people -- I have one man 23 that works Tuesday through Saturday right now, but a lot of 24 times I have two functions on Saturday night, and then I come 25 right back on a Sunday and I have another function. 4-14-08 17 1 So, actually, I can't -- I mean, I have two other 2 people besides myself and one that stays at the Ag Barn to do 3 the maintenance as of right now until we get somebody else 4 hired. And I can't just let them off on comp time, because 5 there's too much work going on; we have too much going and 6 there's too much things to -- to -- right now it's mowing 7 season, so we have a lot of mowing to do. And without the -- 8 out at the Ag Barn, we get very few community service workers 9 here lately. Why, I do not know. I have not a clue, except 10 that I guess that, you know, a lot of them have jobs, and so 11 the only time that they do get to work is on Saturdays and 12 Sundays, and they work on the weekend crew for adult 13 probation. And as far as that, without -- without the 14 Sheriff's work program, B.J. and his boys, a lot of my work 15 don't get done. It just doesn't get done, simple as that. 16 We have 15 locations that are County-owned that we have to 17 maintain, that we have to keep mowed, that we have to keep 18 looking good for the public. And it's getting -- I just 19 don't have enough people to go around. That's just it. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: What are you asking from us today? 21 MR. BOLLIER: Well, if I can get this other person 22 hired, I would like to maybe come and -- and be able to hire 23 another person. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Part-time? 25 MR. BOLLIER: I'd like to have somebody full-time, 4-14-08 18 1 sir. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This -- I talked to Tim a 4 little bit about this whole situation and having days off, 5 and what we do with the -- with his crew, because they -- the 6 comp time, the way we're set up, they're -- his staff really 7 can't do it, 'cause he can't give the comp time. I think we 8 need to look at paying -- paying the overtime for his group. 9 I mean, you know, comp time -- give him a little more in his 10 overtime budget to pay it, because if we're going to continue 11 to rent the Ag Barn facility and have Tim be responsible for 12 managing that, we've got to have people there. We can't, I 13 don't think, start blocking off weekends that we're not going 14 to rent it. That doesn't make sense. I mean, it's kind of 15 contrary to the philosophy of trying to rent the facility and 16 make money off of it. And I think the revenues are up this 17 year, and I think that is a source of the funds for an 18 additional person -- for overtime and/or an additional 19 person, any additional person issues. It's kind of a little 20 bit of a budget issue, but I support increasing his line item 21 for overtime. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do we have any idea what 23 the amount of overtime would be for the remainder of the 24 budget year? Estimate? 25 MR. BOLLIER: I would probably say close to $5,000. 4-14-08 19 1 Well, what do we have, half of the -- we still have half the 2 year to go? I would say in the neighborhood of -- I wouldn't 3 say 5,000; I'd say in the neighborhood, between 2,500 and 4 about three. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Something else that I think 6 we could look at on that, too -- now, he's not -- he hasn't 7 said this, but he and I talked about it, and that is to see 8 if we could hire some people on a part-time temporary basis 9 to man the Ag Barn facility on the weekends so we don't have 10 to use our full-time people, which are a heck of a lot more 11 expensive than maybe finding some people that would -- that 12 need to make a little supplemental income for a couple of 13 people that could maybe take -- one of them take a Saturday 14 and one take a Sunday. We just need somebody there that 15 maybe knows a little bit about running equipment, and mainly 16 just to be there so we have an employee on-site when we have 17 this thing rented. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Especially on -- on events that 19 are not huge. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Some of the smaller type 22 events, we're really not going to have equipment needs and 23 things like that. And rodeos, that kind of stuff, we need 24 our people there. Lots of times, this person's just really 25 sitting there in case there's a problem. 4-14-08 20 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'd like to see him go out 2 and try to find some temporary part-time workers, and they 3 wouldn't be subject to benefits and you could pay them an 4 hourly wage, and I believe that would be a cheaper way to do 5 it, and reserve our full-time employees for doing the 6 maintenance like they're supposed to do. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you one person short on 8 your staff right now? 9 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So there's some impact as a 11 result of that. 12 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the status of your 14 trying to find somebody to add to staff? 15 MR. BOLLIER: Well, we have run our ad in the 16 newspapers, put it on the web and all that. Just -- just 17 waiting for somebody to put in an application. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, the other side of that 19 is, too, that while you don't have that full-time person, 20 you're -- you will have some left over budgeted funds that 21 could help fund that part-time salaries for the rest of the 22 year. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. How long have you 24 been vacant -- how long has that spot been vacant? 25 MR. BOLLIER: Since the week before the stock show, 4-14-08 21 1 back in January. I'm not sure -- the stock show was 2 somewhere around the 20th, so it was a week before the stock 3 show. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But they've only been 5 advertising a couple weeks. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a fourth of a year. 7 That's a full-time salary right there? 8 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir, that's a full-time salary. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That should make up the 10 difference for the rest of the year on maybe some temporary 11 part-time. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Tim, do you see a good possibility 13 of maybe finding some temporary part-time, just on an on-call 14 basis, to have available to -- 15 MR. BOLLIER: Work the weekend? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to work the weekends out there? 17 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. With the help of 18 Commissioner Oehler, I think -- we was talking about it the 19 other day, and we may know a couple of old-timers that know a 20 little bit about equipment and stuff like that. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That are somewhat familiar with the 22 facility, or can be made that way? 23 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that seems like maybe a 25 better -- I think we at least ought to try that before we -- 4-14-08 22 1 before we move some direction to try and get -- bring 2 somebody on board full-time that's going to include weekend 3 hours on their -- on their regular schedule. That's going to 4 be tough to fill, I think, as a full-time employee if you're 5 going to have them working both weekend days. 6 MR. BOLLIER: Be real tough. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I'd like to see you use 8 the unused funds you have to put maybe part of it in 9 overtime, 'cause I think you are going to need more overtime 10 this year, and part of it in the part-time salary line item. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think it will work out that 12 way if we can get -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or plan on going that way, and 14 then maybe -- you know, maybe get with Ms. Hargis and figure 15 out how much money is available from your salary line item 16 that can be moved into those two other line items. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hargis is making notes now. I 18 think we're going to see a budget amendment here fairly 19 quickly. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else on that item? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you going to talk about 23 taking -- shutting the thing down on Easter? Or you already 24 talked about it? 25 MR. BOLLIER: I'm real quiet. I already talked 4-14-08 23 1 about it. But it's like Commissioner Letz said, we have to 2 rent the barn out as advertised. The way I look at it, it's 3 advertised. We can't just take a weekend off. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you come in here and 5 request it, and then turn around and say you can't do it 6 yourself? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I told him he couldn't do it. 8 MR. BOLLIER: He told me I couldn't do it. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe three of us think you 10 can. Come on, get in there and fight for your department, 11 man. 12 MR. BOLLIER: Okay, I can fight for my department. 13 It's like this. I -- I'm not going to -- I'm just -- I have 14 five bosses that I look at up there. And we're not 15 complaining about doing our job; we all like our job, and we 16 all like working. It's just that it was -- you know, we get 17 off for Christmas, which is a Jesus holiday to me, and Easter 18 holiday is -- Easter weekend is a Jesus holiday to me too, 19 and that is a time that you should be with your families, 20 and -- and that's the way I look at it. And -- but if 21 Commissioners Court tells me that I have to work on Easter 22 weekend, then we'll work on Easter weekend. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 24 MR. BOLLIER: But I would like to see where we 25 didn't have to hold -- 4-14-08 24 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, I agree with you. I 2 agree with you. 3 MR. BOLLIER: I would like to see where we didn't 4 have to, but that's up to you guys. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: If we could find someone that we can 6 have on call on a part-time basis to maybe cover that Easter 7 weekend -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. That's the 9 way you do it. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That's the solution, right? 11 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 13 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, gentlemen? Thank 15 you, Mr. Bollier. 16 MR. BOLLIER: Thank you, Commissioner Baldwin. I 17 appreciate it. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, you're welcome. I 19 couldn't get him to fight any more. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 7; consider, 21 discuss, and take appropriate action to change private road 22 name Juliana Bluff East to Raymond Mosty Lane East, located 23 in Precinct 2. Mr. Odom? 24 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. I'll just say that Tim, when 25 he used the word "old-timers," I'm sure he was only talking 4-14-08 25 1 about somebody older than 29 years of age, right? He gave a 2 very good answer. What we have is a private road name change 3 from Juliana Bluff East to Raymond Mosty Lane East. This 4 road name change is to resolve a family conflict, and has 5 been approved by 911. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 9 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 10 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 15 to Item 8; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 16 concerning a 90-day extension to complete Megan Manor and 17 Western Surety Maintenance Bond Number 70271788. Mr. Odom? 18 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. Kevin Spraggins from 19 Vordenbaum Engineering has asked for a 90-day extension to 20 complete the work needed on Megan Manor. They've been 21 working on the corrections, and I feel they will complete 22 them to our satisfaction before the end of 90 days. The 23 Judge received information from the Western Surety Company on 24 the Maintenance Bond Number 70271788. Therefore, I suggest 25 we send them a copy of the court order should you grant the 4-14-08 26 1 extension. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Question. The -- the bond, of 3 course, was written for a period of -- 4 MR. ODOM: One year. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- one year. 6 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. It's a maintenance bond. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Would it not be necessary for that 8 bond to be extended, with whatever appropriate premium they 9 see fit to charge, for that extended period of time? 10 MR. ODOM: Logically, that sounds right. But -- 11 I'm not legal, but my opinion would be is that we still 12 have -- we have the reservations in the court order prior to 13 the extension of that -- of that bond, and I would assume 14 that we would have recourse against that bond, either now or 15 90 days from now, if we decide -- 16 MR. EMERSON: I think the bond is a contract, Len. 17 If you agree to sell me something and you have one year only 18 on your contract, it's only good for one year, unless we 19 extend it in writing. 20 MR. ODOM: All right. So, we'll need to contact 21 them and tell them to extend it for 90 days for that, then. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what my thinking is. 23 MR. ODOM: Okay. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: But, you know, I've not done any 25 exhaustive research. I don't want them to be able to escape 4-14-08 27 1 liability, if something arises later, because they weren't in 2 the loop and didn't have an appropriate extension on that. 3 MR. ODOM: Okay, we'll contact them and tell them 4 they need to extend it for 90 days. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You need a court order? 6 MR. ODOM: I would say yes, sir, we would need a 7 court order on that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that we 9 authorize a 90-day extension to Megan Manor -- or for Megan 10 -- to complete Megan Manor, subject to Western Surety 11 Maintenance Bond 70271788 being extended. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 14 indicated. Question or discussion on that motion? All in 15 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 16 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 20 to Item 9; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 21 award annual bids for Road and Bridge materials. 22 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. My recommendation is for 23 awarding the annual bid for Road and Bridge materials for the 24 following: Contech for corrugated metal pipe. All bids on 25 the base material depending on location of the job site, 4-14-08 28 1 which we normally do every year because of the shipping cost 2 or the time involved. Ergon for emulsion oils, and Vulcan 3 Materials for black base, cold mix, and trap rock. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval of the 5 recommendations. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 8 approval, based upon the recommendations of the Road and 9 Bridge Administrator. Question or discussion? All in favor 10 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's move 15 to Item 10; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 16 for revision of plat for Ingram Hills, Lot 25, as set forth 17 in Volume 3, Page 149, Plat Records, and set a public hearing 18 on the same. 19 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. This -- this lot is split 20 between the City of Ingram and Kerr County jurisdiction. 21 There was a meeting of all parties, and Ingram's 22 representative, Danny Edwards, has asked that we complete the 23 platting process. Lot 25 is 12.25 acres, and will be divided 24 into four lots. Aqua Texas has a public water system to 25 these lots. There will be an additional 15 foot of 4-14-08 29 1 right-of-way dedicated on Butler Road, which is currently a 2 30-foot privately maintained road. At this time, we ask that 3 you set a public hearing for May the 26th, 2008, at 10 a.m. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So moved. I met with Lee 5 Voelkel and Len Odom, and we had Environmental Health 6 involved, everybody that needed to be involved, in kind of a 7 preliminary conference on the thing. It was had, and this is 8 kind of what we agreed to do. We thought it would be a good 9 way to handle it. We're getting an additional 15 feet of 10 right-of-way from the people that are cutting this lot up. 11 It meets all the setbacks and the other requirements, I 12 believe. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second the motion. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 15 approval of the agenda item, to set a public hearing on 16 5/26/08 at 10 a.m. Question or discussion on the motion? 17 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 18 hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 23 to Item 11; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 24 for revision of plat for Lots 23 and 24W in The Reserve at 25 Falling Water Subdivision, as set forth in Volume 7, Page 4-14-08 30 1 215, Plat Records, and set a public hearing on the same. 2 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. Lot 24W has placed an 3 underground propane tank on Lot 23. Therefore, they need to 4 adjust Lots 23 and 24W. At this time, we ask that you set a 5 public hearing for May the 26th, 2008, at 10:05 a.m. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 9 approval to set a public hearing for 5/26/08 at 10:05 a.m. 10 Question or discussion on the motion? 11 MS. GRINSTEAD: That's a holiday. I just checked. 12 That's Memorial Day. We won't have a -- it will have to be 13 5/27. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We did the previous motion 15 the same way. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll come back to that momentarily. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My motion is to do it on the -- 18 20-what? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: -7th. 20 MR. ODOM: 27th. 21 MR. VOELKEL: That Tuesday? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been revised to have the 23 public hearing on 5/27/08 at 10:05 a.m. Question or 24 discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion, 25 signify by raising your right hand. 4-14-08 31 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me recall Item 10; consider, 5 discuss, and take appropriate action for revision of plat, 6 Ingram Hills, Lot 45. A previous motion was passed setting a 7 public hearing for 5/26/08 at 10 a.m. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Move to revise the motion to 9 read May the 27th at 10 o'clock. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll second that. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to revise 12 the previous action of the Court to be 5/27/08, 10 a.m. 13 public hearing. Question or discussion on the motion? All 14 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. I'll now 19 recess the Commissioners Court meeting and convene a public 20 hearing for the revision of plat for Tract 3, Theodore and 21 Dorothea Oehler Estate, as set forth in Volume 4, Page 27, 22 Plat Records, and located in Commissioners's Precinct 4. 23 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 9:22 a.m., and a public hearing was held in open 24 court, as follows:) 25 / 4-14-08 32 1 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the public 3 that wishes to be heard on the revision of plat for Tract 3, 4 Theodore and Dorothea Oehler Estate, as set forth in Volume 5 4, Page 27, located in Precinct 4? 6 MR. VOELKEL: I would. I'm Don Voelkel, and I've 7 been doing some surveying work for Margaret Krause, the 8 owner. And I want to just give you a brief synopsis of what 9 she had done. She had 56 or so acres, I think is how big her 10 tract was. In the last year or two, she hired somebody to 11 install -- to put in her septic tank. She has two separate 12 residences out there, one in the back and one toward the 13 front, and she hired an installer to come in and install 14 septic tanks. She didn't partition her land or anything. 15 Then she comes in to me and -- she hired him to do supposedly 16 what he was supposed to do, get the permits or whatever. 17 Well, she comes into my office late last year and wanted to 18 partition it so she could sell the back house and that 19 facility to a different -- to the person who was living 20 there. And I told her she would have to file a replat, so we 21 started doing all the right things to get the replat going. 22 It turns out the man who did the other -- the septics, that 23 installer didn't get the permits. Putting two on one tract 24 evidently has to have permits. She didn't know this. She 25 was trusting him to do -- just like she's trusted me to do 4-14-08 33 1 her surveying, she trusted him. And the way I see it, and 2 I've talked to Tish about this, and also Jonathan and 3 Bruce -- I think I've talked to Bruce, not Jonathan -- is 4 part of her problem is that there's two separate septics on 5 two separate residences. And this replat will resolve that 6 part of the issue. There's other issues about they haven't 7 been permitted, and Tish may need some other things. But she 8 has been trying to do the right thing the whole time. And I 9 think if and when you approve this plat, it's going to solve 10 one of the problems. She may have some other problems. She 11 may need to get with her installer to get with Tish to fix 12 some other problems. But that -- to me, this replat -- or 13 revision of plat will resolve at least one of her issues. 14 And she hasn't sold anything yet. The people to the south of 15 her, there are two tracts that I'm aware of, and we've seen 16 the deeds; they've already partitioned it, and they have -- 17 one of them's even a 5-acre tract out there, without filing a 18 replat or anything. So, there's other things been going on 19 out there even worse than what she's done, because she hasn't 20 sold anything off. So, I think -- and I don't know; when you 21 close the -- and open up the item for that, I think y'all may 22 pass it, or you -- maybe you can approve it contingent on her 23 getting these other issues, or you could pass it. I mean, 24 but she has not been trying to circumvent anything. She's 25 hired people to do the work for her, and that's why we're 4-14-08 34 1 here today, is because she's tried to do the right thing. 2 The other people to her south haven't been in. We don't know 3 what they're doing, and -- and I'm not sure if they have 4 licenses or permits for their systems either. So, that 5 just -- I just wanted to give y'all kind of a background. 6 I've talked to Bruce about it, but I wanted to let you'll 7 know kind of what -- what's been going on. And if you have 8 any questions, I can try to answer them, but if not, that's 9 all I had to say. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Is there any other 11 member of the public that wishes to be heard with respect to 12 the revision of plat for Tract 3, Theodore and Dorothea 13 Oehler Estate, as set forth in Volume 4, Page 27, Plat 14 Records? Seeing no one else coming forward, I will close the 15 public hearing and I'll reconvene the Commissioners Court 16 meeting. 17 (The public hearing was concluded at 9:25 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court meeting was 18 reopened.) 19 - - - - - - - - - - 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I have met with Lee 21 Voelkel and Don Voelkel, and with Tish and Ray, and we tried 22 to come up with some kind of an agreement on this, and it's 23 kind of one of those things that punishes the landowner for 24 trying to do the right thing. But, at the same time, right 25 now we could maybe approve this conditioned upon coming into 4-14-08 35 1 compliance. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We don't have an agenda item to 3 further consider -- 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Oh, I'm sorry. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- as a matter today. The only 6 thing on the agenda was a public hearing. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay, I'm sorry. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I assume the matter will be up on 9 another agenda at a future meeting. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I apologize. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 14; consider, 12 discuss, and take appropriate action on retaining one of the 13 older vehicles from Environmental Health to use as a 14 courthouse vehicle. Commissioner Letz. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this on the agenda. It's 16 actually -- I was talking with Rex about it at one point, and 17 it seems to me that we have some vehicles that don't have a 18 great deal of salvage value, and it would -- we have an 19 ongoing problem of individuals using their private vehicles 20 for county use. Maybe it'll solve that problem without 21 costing much money to have this -- one of these vehicles just 22 assigned for courthouse use by people that need to go to the 23 bank or whatever else they're doing, so they don't use their 24 own personal vehicles. And that way, we can get out of that 25 insurance problem. 4-14-08 36 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who would control the use 2 of the vehicle? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. (Laughter.) 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't think so. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is your wife doing anything? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ms. Hargis, you had a comment? 8 MS. HARGIS: Yeah. The only thing I want to say 9 is, these two vehicles are -- we've spent a fortune on them 10 already. They're not mechanically that great, so we need to 11 know that this is not a vehicle that can really go outside of 12 Kerr County. 'Cause it -- it's just not mechanically -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In-town errands. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In-town errands. This is 15 like -- I know that pretty much all the elected -- or many 16 elected officials have different accounts and need to go to 17 the bank and things of that nature. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, that's my question, is 19 how many offices go to the bank daily or every other day now? 20 Is -- is the County Clerk going to use it at 9:27 in the 21 morning, and then the District Clerk uses it at 11:02? Or -- 22 I mean, schedule it? Or can we get one person out of the 23 courthouse to make these bank -- make the bank runs? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That would be a good idea. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, you have one vehicle, 4-14-08 37 1 one person. That's -- that's the American way. That's the 2 cowboy way. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sounds good to me. You're 4 in charge. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I suspect -- I don't know; 6 I shouldn't say I suspect. There may be an issue between a 7 person handling money from the Tax Assessor's office and -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand, a person 9 handling money from this office and that office, and I'm just 10 -- I'm just, you know, thinking that maybe -- I may be going 11 through some of the other elected officials' minds. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We can leave the keys with 13 Mr. Bollier, and they can always be turned back in to 14 Mr. Bollier. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I feel like that each one of 16 these offices have people that are bonded to handle money, 17 and if they could rotate the person depositing the money, 18 maybe once a week, maybe one -- one office person, say, in 19 the District Clerk's Office takes the deposit for everybody 20 one week, and next week, maybe Jannett, one of her girls, you 21 know. I can see I'm not making any headway. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, but I like what you're 23 saying. I know this turf thing -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I mean, they're bonded and 25 handle money all the time, so what's the big deal about 4-14-08 38 1 taking it in and depositing it and then coming back? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. Anyway, it -- I just 3 put it on the agenda to have the discussion. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, let's go back to the 5 -- the reason that we're even having this conversation. And, 6 Rex, you have addressed this with us before. 7 MR. EMERSON: Addressed this a couple of times over 8 the years. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I think it's worthy to 10 revisit right now. 11 MR. EMERSON: It's really an insurance issue, and a 12 liability issue. And if we have another vehicle that we can 13 use, whether each department makes their own run or not, it 14 would really help the County out on liability issues if we 15 could use a county vehicle. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I have a suggestion. 17 Let's get rid of all three of them and take the money we get 18 from all three and maybe buy one, you know, used, nice, 19 decent, you know, good mileage vehicle to replace it. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's not a bad idea. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are these the old jeeps 22 we're talking about we got from U.G.R.A.? 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: These are the old jeeps, 24 'cause those things don't get very good gas mileage, either. 25 You might as well be running my pickup to drive one of those 4-14-08 39 1 things. I just think it would be a good idea to get rid of 2 all three of them and get one decent one. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that the issue? I mean, 4 is that the issue of not being able -- one person go to the 5 bank? 'Cause the damn car's not nice enough? 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, no, no, no. I'm just 7 saying get a better one for the price of the three bad ones. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah. Well, I'm there. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with that. That's 10 fine. I just think we have an opportunity to use those 11 vehicles to come up with a vehicle to use for the courthouse. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I agree we need to get 13 a vehicle for somebody -- for people to use to go do their 14 errands around town so we don't have the insurance liability 15 problem. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How do we -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is the agenda item styled 18 appropriately to do that? That's a question. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably not. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Probably not. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I don't think so. I'm back to 22 where we were on the District Clerk's suggestion of 23 deception, if you'll recall. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: If there's an accident, why, you 4-14-08 40 1 know, the driver happens to just merely report that they were 2 tending to their own affairs. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: So that coverage is in effect. And 5 I'm sure that there's -- there's probably a lot of truth in 6 that in every case. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, we'll probably have to 8 put this on the next agenda to discuss it properly. 9 MS. HARGIS: This kind of goes back to the fact -- 10 excuse me, again -- that we're supposed to start 11 collecting -- pretty soon we'll be at the 50,000 population 12 mark where they're going to have to turn everything in to the 13 Treasurer anyway, so this is going to be, maybe, more or less 14 a dry run on learning how to have that office take the money, 15 because they go every day. And I've got the J.P.'s offices 16 going and having -- so she's taking more than one department 17 now. So, we just -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, that's the logical 19 office to handle all the money, the Treasurer's office. The 20 job is to handle all those accounts. 21 MS. HARGIS: I can't force Jannett to do -- or 22 Linda to do that, but I think that would be the more logical 23 source. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Neither can we. 25 (Commissioner Baldwin left the courtroom.) 4-14-08 41 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Can't even force Buster to stay. 2 MS. HARGIS: But I do think that his office would 3 probably be the best, because they are downstairs, and there 4 would be somebody there -- you know, if he's not there, 5 there's usually somebody in that office, and they can sign in 6 and out when they pick up a car. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let's put this on the next 8 agenda to declare those three vehicles surplus, and use the 9 funds to purchase a county vehicle. Is it two or three? 10 MR. GARCIA: Two jeeps. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Two jeeps. Two jeeps surplus. 12 Is that how we do vehicles? Is that right? We declare them 13 surplus, and we can sell them? 14 MR. EMERSON: Yes, sir. 15 MR. ODOM: Declare them surplus. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else on that item? 17 Let's go to Item 16; consider, discuss, take appropriate 18 action to abandon, vacate, and discontinue a 15-foot reserve 19 strip as set forth in Volume R, Page 212 of the Real Property 20 Records or Deed Records, and the portion of Church Street 21 that lies within the Tomm property, all located in Precinct 22 2. Mr. Odom, you're up again. 23 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. But do we not have to have 24 that 10:10 meeting, that public hearing, before we -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Excuse me. Thank you. 4-14-08 42 1 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll come back to that item. Let 3 me go to Item 17. My apologies. Consider, discuss, take 4 appropriate action to establish a juvenile court docketing 5 and reporting system with sufficient capacity to comply with 6 Family Code and Office of Court Administration requirements. 7 Which one of you guys wants this? 8 MS. PIEPER: We've had ongoing problems with our 9 juvenile software. Therefore, we would like to establish a 10 juvenile court docketing reporting system, and basically 11 getting different software. There's several aspects of this. 12 We won't have to do multiple key punching; it would -- it 13 would be faster. 14 (Commissioner Baldwin returned to court.) 15 MS. PIEPER: We can still integrate the four main 16 offices with new software; the Clerk's office, the County 17 Attorney, Juvenile Probation Department, and the Detention 18 Center. We would be able to keep track of our detention 19 hearings, because now we're going to be keeping track of them 20 with pen and paper, the old way, the way we used to do it. 21 (Commissioner Letz left the courtroom.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that going to affect anything 23 that I do? 24 MS. PIEPER: No, sir. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Budgetary impact? 4-14-08 43 1 MS. PIEPER: There will be some budget impact. I 2 haven't got all the costs involved yet, but I have found most 3 of it. And I need to talk with John on the specs that would 4 be required for the server and his line of it. 5 MR. EMERSON: Let me expand on what Jannett's 6 saying. Part of the issue that we have here is that the 7 current software system that we have will not allow her to 8 set the detention hearings without affecting her Office of 9 Court Administration reports, and so what you have is a 10 system that's requiring her to go back and manually 11 recalculate all of her OCA reports. It, you know, defeats 12 the whole purpose under the current Odyssey system. If we 13 go -- and at this point, she's going to be creating manual 14 court dockets twice a week, every week, because we can't 15 enter the detention hearings any more without messing up the 16 docketing system in addition to that. So, if we get the new 17 software, it will allow all four offices to integrate, all 18 four offices to share information. It will allow us to load 19 information at our level that will automatically pass to 20 Jannett's and go in the case file, so we're not 21 double-punching the information in the computer. The 22 software that we've looked at so far will allow for separate 23 docketing for detention hearings without affecting the OCA 24 reports, and, you know, I think it'll save the County a lot 25 of money in the long run. 4-14-08 44 1 (Commissioner Letz returned to court.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Does the current system -- if 3 there's a detention hearing set, does that automatically let 4 the Juvenile Detention Facility know of that hearing? 5 MR. EMERSON: No, sir. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That it's scheduled? 7 MR. EMERSON: No, sir. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Does it let Juvenile Probation know? 9 MS. PIEPER: I don't believe so. 10 MR. EMERSON: No. The way it is right now -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Doesn't let you know either? 12 MR. EMERSON: No. They have to manually load the 13 docket, and then each of us kind of go in every day and check 14 e-mail, check the docket. 15 MS. PIEPER: The docket's e-mailed to the different 16 offices. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: So, if that's not happened, we may 18 look up and not have the children here to hold a detention 19 hearing on, because Detention doesn't know to bring them 20 over. 21 MS. PIEPER: Correct. I've talked with Software 22 for -- how long have we had the system, four years? I don't 23 remember now. And I finally got a straight answer out of 24 them that we cannot. It cannot be programmed for our 25 juvenile detention hearings, the Odyssey program. I've 4-14-08 45 1 talked with other clerks, and we seem to have a larger load 2 of detention hearings than what other counties that have 3 Odyssey are on. They're all doing it manually. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Have any of them attempted to -- 5 based on your discussions, tried to get an Odyssey fix on it? 6 MS. PIEPER: I haven't discussed that with them, 7 but they don't really seem concerned because they don't have 8 that many cases. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I can sure see the need 10 that -- that the County Attorney's office, the Probation 11 Department and the Detention Facility all have a need to have 12 access to that information. It's essential, I think. 13 MS. PIEPER: Well, we're all doing it by phones and 14 e-mails. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: You send them something, but that's 16 not real efficient. 17 MR. EMERSON: No. You know, and the other aspect 18 that comes into play is that there's several companies out 19 there that have the software that will do everything we're 20 talking about, plus they will allow us to handle all the 21 financial inside of one program, off one screen. Juvenile 22 Probation can accept the money just like they've been 23 accepting it. They can key it in, pass it to the Treasurer, 24 and it shows up in Jannett's reports without having to 25 double-key. 4-14-08 46 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It sounds like to me that 2 y'all have a problem of some sort, that our system that we 3 have today doesn't work for you. So, you need to -- all I'm 4 interested in is how much is it going to cost? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what we want to know, 7 or I think that's what the Judge -- you're going to 8 coordinate all the other stuff with the Judge. 9 MR. EMERSON: The short answer -- I'll just jump 10 the gun. The short answer is that, ballpark, by the time we 11 do the -- providing the technical requirements on the server 12 meet, it will run about $60,000. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $60,000? 14 MS. PIEPER: I have found $60,000, but -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have found $60,000? 16 MS. PIEPER: I have. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where? 18 MS. PIEPER: In advance. I have -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which closet? 20 MS. PIEPER: I have five different budgets, and if 21 y'all would allow me to do budget amendments and pull them 22 all together. One of them was a HAVA grant; there's 55,000 23 in there. There's a HAVA grant that -- when the Legislature 24 was going on, we were doing the budget. I had to figure for 25 that, not knowing if that bill was going to pass or not. 4-14-08 47 1 That bill did not pass; therefore, I have that -- that 2 portion of that, and then from pulling in a couple of 3 other -- 1,000 here and 1,000 there, you know, from other 4 line items. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A HAVA grant? 6 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that not restricted to 8 voting issues? 9 MS. PIEPER: No, because that money came from the 10 general fund to put in that line item. So, all we have to do 11 is take it back out of that line item with a budget amendment 12 into Computer Hardware or Computer Software or whatever it's 13 called. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: This isn't grant funds that we've 15 got. This is our own money that we put over there on a 16 contingency that we were going to have to match some of their 17 requirements. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Was Odyssey supposed to be able 19 to do this? 20 MS. PIEPER: Yes. I have not done a juvenile 21 report to the state in six months. I have been on the phone 22 with a gentleman from Odyssey several times a week for the 23 last couple of months, and finally, two weeks ago, he said, 24 "Jannett, we can't do it and we won't do it." I'm like, 25 "Okay." So, I have to figure out something else. 4-14-08 48 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And your proposal is to buy 2 a software package from some other group? 3 MS. PIEPER: That will meet our needs. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Compatible or not 5 compatible with Odyssey? 6 MS. PIEPER: No, it's not compatible with Odyssey, 7 but it's compatible with all the other offices that need to 8 be -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Trolinger, have you looked 11 at this? 12 MR. TROLINGER: No, and I have not been asked to 13 look at it. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's interesting. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think that before I 16 can approve it, you've got to get with Mr. Trolinger, because 17 I need to make sure that he tells me that that software is 18 going to be compatible with everything else in our county 19 system. 20 MS. PIEPER: Right. Well, I've been trying to get 21 specs and stuff like that, so basically, it's just adding 22 more RAM. I don't understand technical specs. It can be 23 loaded on our same server that we have. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What I'm concerned about is 25 loading anything on our server that he isn't comfortable 4-14-08 49 1 with. 2 MS. PIEPER: Oh, exactly. I agree. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He needs to look at it before 4 we can move forward, I think. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: In about two weeks. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bring the numbers in here of 8 how, you know, to -- moving all this money around. But I 9 want to go back. I know I'm going to stir up something here, 10 but I want to know. As a representative of the taxpayers 11 that spent a lot of money on this system that we have now, 12 tell -- y'all explain to me -- I don't think they're 13 interested in it, but I am. Tell me -- Mr. Trolinger just 14 said that he was not asked to look into this issue. 15 MS. PIEPER: That is correct. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, how does that work? 17 Why -- why hasn't he been asked? Did you -- is it your place 18 to ask him to look into it? 19 MS. PIEPER: Yes, it is. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why didn't you ask him to 21 look into it? 22 MS. PIEPER: Because I've got to get all the specs 23 and stuff that he needs before I go to him. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know. I think -- 25 MS. PIEPER: That, and I need to get -- and I 4-14-08 50 1 figure that I need some sort of census before I bother him 2 with it. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, how about trying 4 something like, "John, we bought this system; we spent a lot 5 of money on it, taxpayers' money, and they claimed that this 6 thing would work, and it does not work. Would you explain it 7 to us, please?" 8 MS. PIEPER: He hears that every other day. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's told us that he hasn't. 10 MS. PIEPER: Well, I mean, he hears that our system 11 that we have now, every other day, doesn't work. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It obviously works. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm really disturbed -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't get that from him every 15 other day. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm disturbed that we're not 17 even trying to communicate, is the issue. Obviously, the 18 system doesn't work. We got screwed, or partially screwed -- 19 MS. PIEPER: Correct. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- on the taxpayers' money. 21 But the fact that we're not even trying to communicate, 22 that -- 23 MS. PIEPER: Well, it's not that I'm not trying to 24 communicate. It's just like if I want to -- if I have an old 25 car that is a lemon and I have to repair it a lot, you know, 4-14-08 51 1 I go out and I look for me a car, and if I see one that I 2 like that fits my needs, then I'll go home and -- to my 3 husband and say, "Hey, honey, I have this car I want you to 4 look at. What do you think?" I haven't got to that part 5 yet. You know, as soon as we get to that part, then I'll 6 say, "John, what do you think?" 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With all due respect, Madam 8 Clerk, I think that's a rather narrow analogy. 9 MS. PIEPER: Well, I'm sorry. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're talking about a 11 $20,000 vehicle that you think may be a lemon versus a 12 million-dollar package of software that we know does work. 13 MS. PIEPER: Well, I think it's a lemon as well, 14 sir. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That would be my first 16 question. It would be my first question -- actually, my 17 first action. Get him by the ear and drag him in there and 18 find out why the damn thing's not working, would be my first 19 -- not last, but first. 20 MS. PIEPER: Well, it's a programming issue, and 21 evidently Odyssey can't program it the way it needs to work. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: It occurs to me that maybe you're 23 premature, if you haven't got all the information together, 24 by bringing this item to us at this point. 25 MS. PIEPER: Well, I got my last bit of information 4-14-08 52 1 that I was digging for, and I think I've already lost it. 2 But I have not shown to it John yet; I just received it this 3 morning. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I want -- I mean, first 5 thing, since Mr. Trolinger's here, I want him to tell me that 6 Odyssey isn't going to work on this. That's the first step. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And probably a "why" in there 9 would be nice. And then -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did Odyssey tell us that it 11 -- that this -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The second step is then, how do 13 we get around the problem of Odyssey not working for this 14 particular use? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: And I think, as part and parcel of 16 that, if, in fact, there's some evidence that Odyssey 17 represented to us when we acquired this system that it would, 18 in fact, accomplish these particular things, maybe we need to 19 have a serious discussion with Odyssey about their legal 20 obligation. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I very much agree with that. 24 MR. TROLINGER: Well, I've been handed an e-mail 25 that has some specifications for a server, but this is 4-14-08 53 1 obviously not the right way to do this. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, okay. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Next meeting. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. That's about all we can do on 5 17. Why don't we go to Item 19; to consider, discuss, take 6 appropriate action to approve a proclamation to declare May 7 1st, 2008, as National Day of Prayer. Reverend Lancaster, of 8 course, has been at the helm of that particular item for 9 several years now. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval of the 11 resolution establishing May 1, 2008, as National Day of 12 Prayer in Kerr County, Texas. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 15 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion on the 16 motion? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, we don't have anyone 18 here representing Ms. Lancaster? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: She indicated to me that -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: -- after the agenda item was there, 22 that she would not be able to be here, and asked that I go 23 ahead and present it to the Court. Further question or 24 discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion, 25 signify by raising your right hand. 4-14-08 54 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 5 to Item 20; consider/discuss renovating the original Juvenile 6 Detention Facility, being the first or the Recor building, 7 into office space and dry storage space, with possible 8 occupants being 216th Adult Probation, 198th Adult Probation, 9 Kerr County Juvenile Probation, and/or Texas Child Protective 10 Services, or so forth. Commissioner Williams? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I put that on the 12 agenda because we have been believing that -- over the past 13 six months or so, that we were going to be able to lease the 14 facility to a program outfit that would -- that would be 15 under contract to Texas Youth Commission for probational-type 16 services. T.Y.C., being still a state agency in great 17 disarray, has put a hold on all of that; has in this 18 particular instance indicated that there probably would not 19 be a contract awarded for those type of services in the age 20 group that we have anticipated. Therefore, any anticipation 21 on our part that we might be leasing that on a long-term 22 basis seems to have gone out the window. That said, that 23 building has been sitting there idle now for several years. 24 We're responsible for its upkeep, maintenance, keeping it 25 reasonably functional, and it has no -- it has no express 4-14-08 55 1 purpose at this point. We've abandoned, as the Court knows, 2 a post-adjudicated youth detention. We only deal with 3 preadjudicated youth in the annex, and so the building sits 4 there idle, and it could be used. I doubt seriously that 5 it's one that we would find easily able to sell, so why don't 6 we think about how we could use it ourselves? The thought 7 occurs to me that the building does lend itself to 8 rehabilitation or some reconstruction works. It could be 9 made into county offices. It could -- we could perhaps 10 consolidate some of those services that are in leased space 11 in other parts of town into one facility. And that's the 12 reason why I put it on the Court's agenda for some 13 discussion. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, Commissioner, a couple of 15 thoughts. One is, I -- anything can be renovated for 16 something, but there's going to be, I think, considerable 17 cost to try and make the facility from what it is now into 18 something suitable for the suggested purposes. I firmly 19 believe that, as the situation at the State shakes out, 20 particularly in view of Senator Whitmire's comments, as I'm 21 sure you're aware, that we need to have these facilities 22 for -- secure facilities for housing youth out in the rural 23 areas or in various areas around the state that are closer to 24 the home county locations from which the children are placed 25 there, I think we're going to see more possibilities coming 4-14-08 56 1 up, either on a contract basis or with -- with private 2 contractors, or possibly with T.Y.C., or depending on what 3 may happen with T.Y.C., with T.J.P.C., about needing some 4 additional space for the purpose for which that facility is 5 currently suited. You know, insofar as giving you a 6 timeline, obviously, I can't, but this situation that T.Y.C. 7 is in now has got to shake out with some sort of resolution. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One would hope. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And the fact that -- the fact that 10 it didn't happen the first time around, I think it's -- it's 11 still out there, and I think it will probably visit us in the 12 not too distant future. That's my thoughts. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I pretty much share the 14 Judge's view, I think. I think it's expensive to re -- to 15 redo that building, and if we can avoid that, great. The 16 other part of that is, at some point we do have to decide 17 what we're going to do with it, 'cause it's just 18 deteriorating, and -- but I think waiting about a year to get 19 to the next legislative session, and in which case things may 20 or may not happen -- obviously, something has to happen with 21 T.Y.C. and the whole -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the initiative of 23 Senator Whitmire that the Judge talks about would require 24 some legislative action next year, and that's a possibility. 25 And it does enable counties to -- even in large metropolitan 4-14-08 57 1 areas, to go outside the county and seek housing. But it 2 would also -- a corollary, I believe, Attorney General's 3 opinion came down the pike, too, talking about how counties 4 can't finance that with certain funds -- impressed funds that 5 come through the District Attorney, I believe, or the County 6 Attorney, whatever. They have to do it on their own. But, 7 you know, I just thought I'd put it up there for discussion. 8 If we want to wait, we can wait. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The A.G. opinion you're referring 10 to, I think, had to do with forfeiture funds -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's it, yes, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that District Attorneys end up 13 getting, not being available for use to improve or otherwise 14 expended on juvenile facilities. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Purchase or improve or 16 lease. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good enough. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's go back to timed items. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, can we -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Excuse me. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just want to make a 25 comment real quick on -- 4-14-08 58 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Surely. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- on Number 19, the 3 National Day of Prayer. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And this proclamation. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I read in some of our 8 e-mails from Ms. Lancaster that the day of this thing, out on 9 the front lawn, she wanted each one of us to come up there 10 and sign this document at that time. And we're signing it 11 today? Is there -- is there a big deal here? Or -- I just 12 wanted -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: If we're all going to be on it, some 14 of us may not be there that day, and I'd sure as the dickens 15 hate to -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've signed it. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: -- not have one that was fully 18 executed. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The poor lady. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: If we are all there, I suppose we 21 can get a fresh one. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just going to do what 23 the poor lady is requesting, trying to meet the needs of the 24 taxpaying public. I mean -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: You've now let the cat out of the 4-14-08 59 1 bag, Commissioner. Let's go to our 10 o'clock timed item, 2 Number 12. Consider, discuss, take appropriate action on a 3 request from Archway Recovery Outpatient Treatment Center to 4 be a preferred provider for Kerr County employees for drug 5 and alcohol treatment. 6 MS. WATSON: Hello. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Hello. 8 MS. WATSON: I'm Marion Watson, and my cohort, Rick 9 Carr, is at home with strep throat today, so he didn't come. 10 Now, I have information. Do I need to leave this with you 11 gentlemen? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Be helpful. 13 MS. WATSON: Okay. I was told to bring information 14 on our program, so I did. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: We have some information. 16 MS. WATSON: Do you? Yes, very good. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: We have that. We already have that 18 information. 19 MS. WATSON: That's pretty much the core of our 20 program. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 MS. WATSON: We are a brand-new drug and alcohol 23 outpatient treatment center here in Kerr County. We've been 24 open for eight months, and we basically meet -- our program 25 is a very intense A.A. 12-step program, spirituality and 4-14-08 60 1 education in drug and alcohol abuse and the disease of 2 addiction. We have a full family component, because we 3 believe that without having the family involved, you can't 4 get recovery in a home. We meet Monday, Wednesday, and 5 Friday. I have two licensed chemical dependency counselors 6 that run the program, and I oversee it. We are getting 7 people from the Kerr County area, as well as La Hacienda, 8 Serenity House, and some of the treatment centers in San 9 Antonio for people who need a lower level of care in order to 10 acquire or maintain sobriety. What it offers to the workers 11 here in this community is that it's convenient. We are close 12 to the people who live here, and we live here. You can go 13 ahead and work all day and go to the program in the evenings. 14 If you are a stay-at-home mom or a working mom or a working 15 father, it allows you to continue to not only be in your home 16 while you learn how to -- to get sober and stay sober; it 17 also allows you to remain on your job. 18 We're very cost-effective. The cost of the program 19 runs about $175 per diem, which runs between 3,500 and 4,500 20 for an 8- to 10-week stay. We have -- the program is geared 21 for two populations, basically, and we are adults only, which 22 would be 18 and older. For someone who has never had any 23 experience or exposure to treatment or A.A., we are able to 24 have -- we have what's called a two-week primary group, where 25 our counselors work with you individually or as a group to 4-14-08 61 1 get you ready to go into the full program, which is an 8-week 2 program. The program is set up in three tiers so that you 3 are actually able to -- you can come in at any time. It's 4 circular; you don't have to come in, like, at the beginning 5 of a session. It goes -- it's circular; it goes all the 6 time. You can admit into the program at any point, because 7 every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, we not only review the 8 work we've done, but we start a new chapter in the work. 9 And, so, what we would like at Archway is to be considered to 10 be a preferred provider for the city. Now, we do have a 11 complete screening for all of our clients. If we determine 12 that they need a higher level of care, which would be 13 inpatient residential, then we will make referrals for that, 14 and occasionally we do that. I really don't want anyone 15 coming through my program if they're set up to fail because 16 they're not appropriate for my program. It's unethical, and 17 it goes against state laws. Can I answer any questions for 18 you gentlemen? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No detox? 20 MS. WATSON: We can refer to detox. We have John 21 Davis and his group that are doing outpatient detox for us, 22 and we have an agreement with both Starlite and Mission Vista 23 and the hospital here. If we have a client that we deem is 24 in trouble and they need detox, we will immediately refer 25 them to detox, but we do not offer detox. We are not a 4-14-08 62 1 medical facility. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you for answering my 3 question, finally. As a government body that represents all 4 the taxpayers of Kerr County, I'm going to have a hard time 5 naming anyone a preferred provider. That's my stand. 6 MS. WATSON: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- and I pretty much 8 agree with that. And I think it comes under our health 9 insurance, anyway. 10 MS. WATSON: It does, but we were told that we had 11 to present the program to you gentlemen. Now, we have 12 applied for -- to become what is -- and "preferred provider" 13 is what the insurance company calls us. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 15 MS. WATSON: That's just a standard terminology. 16 It means that we have been accepted by your insurance panel, 17 and that we will agree to accept whatever they pay, where the 18 only out-of-pocket to your employees would be their 19 deductible. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I guess we could do -- I saw 21 her come in -- there she is. I guess we could list -- list 22 all the providers like this, make a list of them, and make 23 them all -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Preferred. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- preferred providers. I 4-14-08 63 1 mean, if that's what it takes to make the insurance thing 2 work. If not, I may want to visit your treatment facility. 3 MS. WATSON: You're welcome any time. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much. 5 MS. WATSON: Absolutely. All of you are. Thank 6 you. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why would we not consider 8 an RFP for this status? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Others who may be out there 10 that provide the service respond to an RFP? I guess I'm 11 directing that question to Ms. Hyde. 12 MS. HYDE: Well, I didn't know anything about it 13 until it was on the agenda, so, you know, I don't -- I don't 14 know. I know that our insurance allows folks to turn in 15 information, and they do have to come and be approved by 16 Commissioners Court. But I didn't find any of this out until 17 Friday afternoon, Monday morning -- today. So -- but, as far 18 as an RFP, I think that what we could do is a public notice. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 20 MS. HYDE: Because it won't cost anything, and it's 21 not going to cost us anything, if that's okay. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, we might want to -- I 23 agree with that. I agree with public notice, if we have to 24 do anything. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's fine. Let's assume 4-14-08 64 1 that if someone needed the service, they'd work through our 2 insurance company or H.R. Department to find an adequate 3 provider. 4 MS. WATSON: We are the only outpatient service. 5 Now, we have La Hacienda that we work closely with. 6 Starlite, which is, of course, out in Center Point, has their 7 IOP, but that's it. So, what -- the service that we offer is 8 that we are the only outpatient program here in the Kerr 9 County area, and we work very closely with all the other 10 treatment centers. We have a great relationship with them. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the preferred provider 12 status comes by virtue of any provider of that service who 13 has the proper credentials agreeing to accept the coverage 14 terms of our plan. 15 MS. HYDE: Right. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That, in and of itself, makes them 17 a, quote, preferred provider, does it not? 18 MS. HYDE: It does under our insurance. But when 19 we talked about it Friday, it was -- we were thinking -- we 20 were talking that they're the ones that we have to go to; 21 it's the only person that you can go to. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 23 MS. HYDE: And that -- you know, that's not what 24 it's meant to be. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We don't want to do that. 4-14-08 65 1 MS. HYDE: What we can bring in is some information 2 to make sure that it is in the public record. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Could they not just be added 4 to the list as a preferred provider? Whoever else would 5 qualify could be on that list, too. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That's the way I see it. Anybody 7 that -- 8 MS. WATSON: That's what we're asking for. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: -- has any -- has the credentials to 10 provide this type of service can agree to accept the 11 providing of that service to anyone covered by our plan under 12 the terms of our plan, and at that point they become a 13 preferred provider and on the list, as it were. 14 MS. HYDE: And the employees still have a choice. 15 They do not have to go to these folks. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 17 MS. HYDE: You know, or anybody. They can go to 18 anyone. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody on the list or off the list. 20 MS. HYDE: That's right. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's key, to me. 22 MS. WATSON: They can go anywhere. It's according 23 to -- and they just simply take -- the insurance company, if 24 you are dealing with an out-of-provider network, they won't 25 pay as much, and the person who wants the services can pay 4-14-08 66 1 the difference. It's absolutely up to the individual, 2 always. Always, it is. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't see that the Court needs to 4 take any action. If -- if your organization makes the 5 appropriate commitment to -- to our carrier, our provider, 6 our plan, -- 7 MS. WATSON: Which we have done. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that you're willing to do 9 that, -- 10 MS. WATSON: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: -- I think that gets you there. 12 That's the way I see it. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Fine with me. 14 MS. WATSON: Thank you. Thank you for your time. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to our 10:05 item; 16 consider discuss and take appropriate action to approve 17 proclamation to declare April 21st, 2008 to be San Jacinto 18 Day. Is Mr. Smith available? 19 MR. SMITH: Yes, he is. Thank you. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Come forward, please. 21 MR. SMITH: Thank you, gentlemen. Well, as you 22 know, in years past, San Jacinto Day used to be a Texas 23 holiday. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 25 MR. SMITH: And somewhere along the road, due to 4-14-08 67 1 all the new political considerations, it's been dropped. I 2 belong to a group called the Sons of the Republic of Texas. 3 We have over 50 groups situated around the state. Our 4 purpose in life is to try to educate our youth about the 5 history of our state, what our people did, so that we would 6 actually have a free country, our nation. And now we're 7 asking that you would consider a proclamation to remember 8 April the 21st, which is San Jacinto Day. That was the day 9 of the battle field -- I mean, the date of the battle when 10 Sam Houston was able to conquer the invaders from Mexico. 11 That was a very -- it's one of the very unusual battles in 12 the history of -- of warfare, in that it lasted about 21 13 minutes. And so -- and so, anyway, it's our proposition that 14 you would consider a proclamation that would recommend -- 15 recognize all of the people that provided the freedom and 16 liberty that we enjoy in this state. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hear, hear. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move approval. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 22 approval of the proclamation. Question or discussion on the 23 motion? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have -- we have fired a 25 shot at a couple of times, and actually succeeded at a couple 4-14-08 68 1 of points, of making Texas Independence Day a holiday. 2 MR. SMITH: That would be fantastic. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I know. Could you come 4 back? 5 MR. SMITH: Well, yes, sir. Well, you know what we 6 do every year on March the 2nd, or a date that's closest to 7 that? We normally go to Fredericksburg middle school on that 8 day and present a program, and then we come in the afternoon 9 to the Kerrville middle school and present a program. And 10 this year, the school -- the local school here in Kerrville 11 schedule was such that we couldn't do it, but we've done it 12 for eight years in Fredericksburg, and we -- we do that and 13 our guys come in uniform and bring memorabilia and things 14 that would be representative of what the lifestyle in those 15 days were. We let the kids come up -- I have -- I have built 16 a cannon that is rep -- it replicates the Twin Sisters, and 17 we let the kids come up on the trailer and touch it and feel 18 it, and we try to do all of those things on the 2nd. That's 19 what we do. Our mission in life is really to try to educate 20 the people in our state about the history. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fantastic. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you for what you do. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much. 24 MR. SMITH: Thank you, gentlemen. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or discussion on 4-14-08 69 1 that motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 2 your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll move 7 to our 10:10 item. 8 MR. SMITH: Thank you, gentlemen. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll now recess the Commissioners 10 Court meeting and convene a public hearing to abandon, 11 vacate, and discontinue a 15-foot reserve strip, as set forth 12 in Volume R, Page 212, Deed Records, and the portion of 13 Church Street that lies within the Tomm property located in 14 Commissioner's Precinct 2. 15 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:19 a.m., and a public hearing was held in 16 open court, as follows:) 17 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the public 19 that wishes to be heard with respect to the abandonment, 20 vacating and discontinuance of a 15-foot reserve strip as set 21 forth in Volume R, Page 212 of the Deed Records, and the 22 portion of Church Street lying within the Tomm property, 23 located in Commissioner's Precinct 2? 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Seeing no one coming forward, I'll 4-14-08 70 1 close the public hearing to abandon, vacate, and discontinue 2 a 15-foot reserve strip as set forth in Volume R, Page 212, 3 Deed Records, and the portion of Church Street lying within 4 the Tomm property. 5 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:20 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court meeting was 6 reopened.) 7 - - - - - - - - - - 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And I will reconvene the 9 Commissioners Court meeting, and call Item 16, to consider, 10 discuss, and take appropriates action to abandon, vacate, and 11 discontinue a 15-foot reserve strip as set forth in Volume R, 12 Page 212, Deed Records, and the portion of Church Street 13 lying within the Tomm property located within Precinct 2. 14 Mr. Odom? 15 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. I'd just like to advise the 16 Court that April the 21st is not only San Jacinto Day, but it 17 is our muster day for Aggies all over the world. (Laughter.) 18 And we would invite you to our muster, 21st. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Do you want a proclamation on 20 that? 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: On my order, there is a 22 15-foot reserve strip filed in Volume R, Page 212, that goes 23 from Swayze Street in Center Point to the river; that is 24 totally within Ms. Lynn Tomm's property. Church Street, a 25 County-maintained road, continues 157.68 feet into the 4-14-08 71 1 property and terminates. Ms. Tomm has asked the Court to 2 abandon, vacate, and discontinue both the easement and that 3 portion of Church Street past the Swayze Street intersection. 4 By doing this, it will make the three parcels totaling 5 6.5 acres a contiguous lot, and she can gate the entrance to 6 her property. Road and Bridge has no need for the reserve 7 strip and feels the traffic flow would be safer without the 8 dead-end portion of the road. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I concur. And I would move 10 that we authorize the abandonment, vacation, and 11 discontinuance of a 15-foot reserve strip, and that portion 12 of Church Street that lies within the Tomm property in 13 Precinct 2. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 17 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll now 22 go to Item 18, which is a 10:15 timed item. It's just a few 23 minutes past that now. Consider, discuss, and take 24 appropriate action to approve exempting Kerrville Elks Lodge 25 Number 2081, 1907 Junction Highway, Kerrville, Texas, 78028, 4-14-08 72 1 from real property and business personal property taxes. 2 Mr. Jim Keefe. 3 MR. KEEFE: Good morning. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, sir. 5 MR. KEEFE: Gentlemen, I gave you some additional 6 information this morning, so I will try to cut this as short 7 as possible. It has been recognized by the State Legislature 8 that the current law discriminates against fraternal 9 organizations. To eliminate this discrimination, the 10 Legislature is in the process of approving Senate Bill 1296. 11 The Senate has approved this bill. It has come out of the 12 House committee approved, but did not get to a vote in the 13 last session. We are asking the Commissioners to take action 14 on this to exempt the Elks Lodge from ad valorem taxes, to 15 show not only the State, but to show the people of the United 16 States that they will not condone discrimination. My backup 17 information, I think, gives you all the information on this. 18 I'll be glad to try to answer any questions that you have. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a couple. You say 20 this is in the process of legislative approval? 21 MR. KEEFE: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It went through committees, 23 but it died at the end of session, did it not? 24 MR. KEEFE: It never got to a vote because of other 25 actions that was going on. 4-14-08 73 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That means, then, it has to 2 be reintroduced -- 3 MR. KEEFE: That's correct. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- in January, and go 5 through the meat grinder process all over again; is that 6 correct? 7 MR. KEEFE: I assume. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's the way it 9 works. Secondly, you -- you made an appearance, I believe, 10 last Tuesday night before the City Council? 11 MR. KEEFE: That's correct. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that correct? Did they 13 grant you this exception? 14 MR. KEEFE: They took no action. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Took no action. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The question that I have, and 17 I'm sure the rest of the Court has, by that silence that I 18 just heard, is that the precedent we're taking on this, as to 19 exactly -- you know, I see a determination letter that you 20 received from the Comptroller's office. How far-reaching is 21 this? Is this only fraternal organizations, or is this going 22 to be -- start going beyond that? We recently received a 23 request for, I think, some kind of buildings that have 24 historical designation to be abated, and we declined that for 25 the same reason, is that where does it go from here? 4-14-08 74 1 MR. KEEFE: Mm-hmm. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, absent Legislature doing 3 something, I'm kind of -- that's where I am still, is to -- 4 how far do we go? I think Elks is a great organization, and 5 they've certainly done a great deal to support the community. 6 For years, I was Little League president, and every year 7 y'all supported that, and I think you support a lot of other 8 youth organizations and other organizations. I'm certainly a 9 big advocate of what y'all do. Just unsure of the precedent 10 we'd be setting if we, you know, do what you're asking at 11 this time. 12 MR. KEEFE: To the best of my knowledge, 13 Commissioner, there are only three fraternal organizations in 14 Kerr County that this would apply to; the Elks and the 15 Masonic Lodge and Knights of Columbus. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is -- are there only -- I mean, 17 the reference in your letter from Ms. Combs finding these 18 charitable organizations under Chapter 11.18 of the Property 19 Tax Code, that's what the letter from Mr. Lomax referred to, 20 and I presume that -- and I have to ask the County Attorney 21 at some point to come back to us on that, but -- whether the 22 Code allows to us do that, I mean, in his opinion. I know 23 you have a letter from the Comptroller. And if that section 24 of the Property Tax Code is specific to fraternal 25 organizations -- 'cause that's my issue still, is the 4-14-08 75 1 precedent we're setting to other charitable organizations if 2 we do start abating taxes. 3 MR. KEEFE: Most charitable organizations are 4 already exempt under statute or Texas Constitution. It is 5 only the fraternal organizations that are required to go 6 through this process, hence the discrimination. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's something that 8 needs to be corrected by the State. 9 MR. KEEFE: That's what Senate Bill 1296 has been 10 written for and is designed to do. But, again, we -- we're 11 hoping that the Commissioners will show the State and show 12 other people -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you think that if we 14 pass this thing today, then the State's going to say, "Oh, my 15 god, look what Kerr County did," -- 16 MR. KEEFE: I think they're going -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- and jump on board? 18 MR. KEEFE: I think they're going to say, "Great 19 bunch of guys down there." 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sorry, that ain't -- that 21 will not be said. (Laughter.) 22 MR. KEEFE: Well, at least it leads to it. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nice try. Nice try. 24 Although I agree with you; I would think that the basis of my 25 vote to -- to approve this would be based on the action of 4-14-08 76 1 the State, that they move -- this discrimination thing 2 disappears through their -- through their actions in Austin. 3 MR. KEEFE: Then we wouldn't need your approval. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I don't know about 5 that, now. 6 MR. KEEFE: Well, if you read the bill analysis -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I didn't read that, 8 because I didn't see any reason to. But you don't know what 9 the next bill's going to be, what the analysis of the next 10 bills is going to be. 11 MR. KEEFE: I -- it will be the same bill. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, you don't know that. 13 MR. KEEFE: I don't know exactly. No, I don't have 14 a crystal ball. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you lease your facility 16 out to other organizations for any purpose, and if so, 17 what -- where does that revenue go? 18 MR. KEEFE: We rent our hall for various functions. 19 That money goes into our operating expense, and with any 20 surplus, it goes into charities. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just want to know if it's 23 legal for us from the County Attorney before I'm going to 24 vote for it. I wouldn't want to be doing something that 25 would get us in trouble. 4-14-08 77 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you presented your 2 proposal to the school district? 3 MR. KEEFE: Tomorrow evening. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have 5 anything to offer in the way of a motion on this particular 6 agenda item? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have a motion, but I 8 would request the County Attorney to look at Section 11.184 9 that was in the backup, and see how far-reaching -- when I 10 read that quickly, it shows that it's all charitable 11 organizations. I'd be interested to know as to what current 12 charitable organizations are exempt and what are not, and 13 kind of where this -- where the Elks and other fraternal 14 organizations fall subject to that section of the Property 15 Tax Code. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other action offered in 17 connection with that agenda item? Thank you, sir. 18 MR. KEEFE: Thank you. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate you being here. 20 MR. KEEFE: Thank you, gentlemen. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: At this time, we'll be in recess for 22 about 15 minutes. 23 (Recess taken from 10:29 a.m. to 10:46 a.m.) 24 - - - - - - - - - - 25 (Commissioner Baldwin not present.) 4-14-08 78 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to order. We 2 were in recess for a bit. We'll take up Item 21, updates on 3 improvements and cleanup plans at Flat Rock Lake Park. 4 Commissioner Williams? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've had some meetings with 6 Mr. Odom and Mr. Bollier and Ms. Hargis with respect to some 7 ongoing work at the park. I thought it would be beneficial 8 if the Court heard exactly what's taking place, and we'll 9 start with Mr. Odom and talk about the bridge, talk to 10 Mr. Bollier about some tree cleanup, and Ms. Hargis as to how 11 we're going to pay for all that. 12 MR. ODOM: I'm sorry. I was going to let Tim go 13 first. Well, basically, I've met with two Commissioners and 14 I've talked to the Judge, and from those conversations, 15 basically, I have found the money. That was one thing I did 16 know about, so we -- I know that I have some money, that we 17 were going to do some concrete across that structure and to 18 -- to delineate an area that would protect the -- the other 19 20 acres back there. It'll be a small parking area that we 20 discussed, maybe 15, 20 slots in there that people could go 21 across that bridge. I have no problems; I feel quite 22 confident that the bridge will hold up. I don't know if I 23 need certification or not if we let traffic on it. I -- 24 that's something that the Court might consider. That's the 25 only thing there. 4-14-08 79 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did you have certification 2 at Hermann Sons? 3 MR. ODOM: It had -- 17,000 is what we had. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that just a routine 5 thing that TexDOT does for you, or what? 6 MR. ODOM: Well, they did -- that was an off-site 7 bridge, and I thought that I might talk to Mike Coward about 8 doing that again. Somebody from District 15 came down, -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. ODOM: -- and at that time, with the resident 11 engineer and his assistant sitting there -- or standing there 12 when we did Hermann Sons, we had a railcar that weighed 13 40,000 pounds, and a tractor trailer rig sitting on one 14 railcar over at the Guadalupe, and they only posted both of 15 them at 17,000. They said that there was nothing to compare 16 that with in the past. I mean, they didn't know how to rate 17 it, so 17,000 was a good guess. So, I assume that I could 18 still get a 17,000-pound rating. It's going to be single 19 car, anyway. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're going to also -- in 21 addition to the concrete work that's necessary on both sides, 22 you're also going to put a new running surface on top? 23 MR. ODOM: That is correct. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And perhaps some rails on 25 the side? 4-14-08 80 1 MR. ODOM: Some type of rail or some type of guard. 2 I don't know if I want -- maybe we would put something up not 3 as high as we had at Hermann Sons, because it was a 4 maintenance problem. Every time the river came up, I lost 5 everything. So we might keep it a little bit lower, and do 6 it with straight pipe, or maybe pipe and some cable at 7 18 inches, 2 foot, something to deflect, something like a 8 guardrail. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And then the idea is, on 10 the -- on the eastern section of the park, the 21-acre 11 section of the park, just after you cross the bridge, that we 12 create some sort of a parking area using some boulders to 13 delineate. 14 MR. ODOM: Maybe some boulders, or either we use 15 the timber posts that we use for guardrails, and to either 16 spacing, or either we'll use some cable. But we want to try 17 to delineate that, that they can't get in, and we'll still 18 give Tim the opportunity to have maintenance, and y'all can 19 -- which is probably the best way to go as far as 20 expenditures at this point, till you determine what you 21 really want to do on that side. Keep our costs down, and -- 22 and determine -- try to keep the younger people from mudding 23 out there. They tear the park up, so we want to delineate 24 them to a very small area. And if people want to walk their 25 dogs or do a walk, they can pass through and be able to do 4-14-08 81 1 that, and still utilize the 21 acres over there. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You have some questions? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pretty much, Len and I came up 4 and looked at it. It's just we don't want cars or any kind 5 of vehicles past that parking area, and boulders or guardrail 6 posts, whatever, something to keep traffic out. We need to 7 have some kind of a pass-through gate for mowing and things 8 of that nature. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's another element to 10 that, too. We have -- we have an entrance up there by the 11 Swap Shop that comes down by the side of Taylors', and we 12 have -- we have, although I don't think it's used right now, 13 some sort of an ingress-egress driveway, even though it goes 14 uphill and turns right there by the Ag Barn, or just on the 15 western side of -- of Town Creek -- Third Creek. And it 16 would be our idea to shut off all those, or have limited 17 access, particularly from the one up there by Taylors', so 18 that we have controlled access in and out down there by the 19 boat ramp or at the western entrance. 20 MR. ODOM: And with y'all's direction, I thought 21 that I might fix that part, and particularly up that hill, 22 and sealcoat that so we wouldn't have as much complaints 23 about us using that with our trucks when we go in there for 24 chipping and for our brush and all. But to have that access 25 control cut off, the old boat ramp, that will be eliminated, 4-14-08 82 1 and that you will have one entrance coming out of the new 2 boat ramp area, which I think is more secure and safer for 3 everybody. And to be able to use that other part, they could 4 still go across that other part. I feel confident I could 5 get the State to help me on that. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's Leonard's piece of 7 the action. Tim, if you'd come to the podium? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I got one question for you, Leonard. 9 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any intent at this point to 11 place some sort of barrier, a removable barrier on the west 12 end of the bridge, the Flat Rock -- the lower park side, to 13 -- if it's desired to prevent anything from going across 14 there? 15 MR. ODOM: Well, I can. I can put that in when we 16 do the concrete approaches on up there. But at this point, 17 unless the Court directs us otherwise, my intent was to go 18 across to that parking area -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: And restrict it over there on the 20 east side? 21 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. That whole area would be 22 cordoned off, either with limestone rocks or posts up there, 23 but they would not be able to get through. Only Maintenance 24 would be able to get through the gated area right there. 25 (Commissioner Baldwin returned to court.) 4-14-08 83 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 2 MR. ODOM: It's just -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Somehow I had the impression, from 4 some discussions a good while back, that maybe -- but what 5 was not in the mix at that time was the -- was the designated 6 and controlled parking area -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: -- on the east side of the bridge. 9 There was a discussion about putting a barrier on the west 10 side to even prevent folks from going on there, on the 11 bridge. 12 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir, and that's up to the Court. I 13 mean, I'm -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 15 MR. ODOM: The intent is to take that -- it'll be 16 narrow, and to redo that road right up to the old boat ramp. 17 That will come up to it, but if the Court designates that, it 18 can be done. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I would say it would be a 21 good idea to -- you have a gate up on the -- up on Riverside 22 Drive, right where you would access that now. 23 MR. ODOM: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That would take care of it, 25 mainly to where you can block it off, where you can stop 4-14-08 84 1 people from accessing there. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What -- what Bill mentioned, 3 too, and I was going to go into it a little bit more, that 4 access off Riverside is going to be eliminated completely; 5 going to be bulldozed down. There's a big bluff there. It's 6 not going to be used for any vehicle, and it will limit 7 access into the park also. And the other thing Len and I 8 talked about, we visualize -- there's, like, a cross-fence at 9 Flat Rock, oh, probably a quarter of a mile up to the west, 10 kind of where it narrows down, and from that little 11 cross-fence to this new bridge is kind of a rocky, messed up 12 area that we've never really maintained. Len and I looked at 13 it. If you -- and part of that's because it's lower next to 14 the bluff than it is next to the lake. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's the mudhole. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you grade that off from the 17 lake side up and put a grade all the way from that bluff to 18 the lake, it would solve that problem, and you can start 19 using that property as well. And then put a -- you know, use 20 some of that base material that we have down there -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- for a road. 23 MR. ODOM: We'd put an all-surface road right 24 there, and eliminate that -- it would help eliminate a 25 mudhole for those youngsters. But they're ingenious. 4-14-08 85 1 (Laughter.) 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's putting it mildly. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Len. Tim, tell 4 us about the other part, the tree trimming and cutting down 5 and so forth. 6 MR. BOLLIER: Right now, we're -- Commissioner 7 Williams asked me to start at Flat Rock, the part that's 8 directly behind the Ag Barn. There's some dead trees in 9 there that we're taking out, and we're going to -- also, 10 there's also some stumps in there we're going to take out. 11 And, as a matter of fact, they started on it yesterday. I've 12 got this Adult Probation on certain days that they go down 13 there and work on that for me, and basically, if we can get 14 those trees out of there and get some of those other trees 15 lifted up high, it'll -- it will do a lot to that park. 16 It'll make it look a whole lot better, and trying to clean up 17 some of the trees that are hanging off the bank, the ones 18 that we can get to. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's just a general 20 cleanup improvement. There's one other issue I want to bring 21 back to the Court, probably in two weeks. I'll mention that 22 before we get Ms. Hargis to tell us where the money is, and 23 that has to do with the folks using the park who do not clean 24 up behind their pets. That is a problem. And I've had the 25 County Attorney research it. We know what we can do about 4-14-08 86 1 it, so I'll bring that whole issue back to the Court in a 2 couple weeks and see where it takes us. Jeannie, where's the 3 money? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me just -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to make sure that the 6 Sheriff is available to discuss the enforcement aspects of 7 that, and that he's not otherwise committed when you bring it 8 back? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, I do. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You mean assigning a deputy 12 to that? 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I thought we were going to 14 assign Commissioner of Precinct 2 to that task for the 15 citation book. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is getting out of 17 hand. Where's the money? 18 MS. HARGIS: Actually, there is a budget amendment 19 for you to approve today. Part of the money, $7,732, will be 20 coming out of the existing Flat Rock; that's how much money 21 we have left in that account, and then the remainder will be 22 coming from the Flood Control funds that we have. What we're 23 going to do is, depending on how much it costs, whatever's 24 left, that will remain in that fund. But for right now, 25 that's where -- the only place we had to take it out of is 4-14-08 87 1 Flood Control. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's listed on our budget 3 items? 4 MS. HARGIS: It's Number 7 on your budget 5 amendments. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: The $7,000, is that the remainder of 7 the L.C.R.A. grant funds? 8 MS. HARGIS: No, that's the remainder of the -- of 9 the cash that we had in there. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't think they ever 12 funded that remainder, Judge. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 'Cause we didn't do -- we 15 didn't proceed to do some of those other park improvements 16 and whatever. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Were there more funds 18 available there through L.C.R.A.? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we could go back 20 and see. I think we could go back. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We never built the restrooms 22 that were part of that original grant. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Didn't put in the frisbee 24 deal, whatever that was. Thank you all. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. It is now 11 o'clock, and we 4-14-08 88 1 have a timed item at 11:00. It's actually an executive 2 session item, to consider, discuss, take appropriate action 3 regarding real estate matters. So, at this time, it is 4 11:01, and we will go out of public or open session to go 5 into executive or closed session. 6 (The open session was closed at 11:01 a.m., and an executive session was held, the transcript of which 7 is contained in a separate document.) 8 - - - - - - - - - - 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we'll go back into open or 10 public session. It is now 11:50, and we'll take up Item 22. 11 Consider, discuss, take appropriate action on proposals from 12 Guardian Security Solutions to furnish and install video 13 teleconferencing system in Kerr County courthouse and jail. 14 I put this on the agenda. This is in conformity with one of 15 the items that was included on the capital improvements 16 project list. I had originally proposed this matter to be 17 much broader than what it is. At the suggestion of our I.T. 18 Manager, we scaled it back to set it up initially on a pilot 19 program only between our jail and County Court at Law, and 20 make sure it works okay, and then expanding beyond that. The 21 I.T. Manager has reviewed various systems -- video 22 teleconferencing systems, and the proposal which is before 23 you is, based upon my understanding, technically the best 24 proposal for a number of reasons. Number one, quality of the 25 equipment, and number two, cost, by a long shot. But, John, 4-14-08 89 1 I'll let you address that. 2 MR. TROLINGER: I agree with everything Judge 3 Tinley said. We've -- we've got the best technology and the 4 best combination here. We're not going to try to deploy on a 5 large scale. We're going to test between the courthouse and 6 the jail first, and then look at other facilities and 7 counties. And it's a good system; it's going to be a good 8 project. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is for arraignment 10 purposes between the jail and the County Court at Law; is 11 that correct? 12 MR. TROLINGER: For the jail docket, I believe, is 13 the initial -- and for magistration, possibly, would be the 14 initial uses. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What was the amount budgeted? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe the amount in the capital 18 improvements packet was 30,000. That's what was budgeted. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And there -- I thought we 20 put something in the budget, too, though. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Last year, I believe it was all in 22 the capital improvements. We may have had some in 23 previously, but -- but this was, I believe, only in the 24 capital improvements last year. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So -- well, I don't know if 4-14-08 90 1 I'd heard that before or not. Magistration. That's kind of 2 neat. I'm glad -- I'm glad that's on the table. I can't see 3 how that's going to work, giving -- I mean, I can't see a -- 4 unless Judge Brown is going to do all the magistration, I 5 can't see a J.P. walking in his office and using his computer 6 to magistrate between him and the jail, but I'm -- if that's 7 what y'all are going to do, that's -- I think it's wonderful. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: It'll be set up in -- in County 9 Court at Law courtroom. And while it would be available for 10 magistrations, assuming Judge Brown's not using his 11 courtroom, you also got arraignments. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: You got some pretrial things that 14 can be conducted. One of the items -- one of the primary 15 benefits to be derived is not having to transport these 16 inmates back and forth -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: -- from the jail, and utilize the 19 Sheriff's personnel, and transportation requirements, 20 security issues and all that sort of thing. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm all for it. I want it 22 to work. But, you know, would -- would the district level 23 use it as well? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: It would be available for their use 25 initially, but the plan is to put it in on a limited basis 4-14-08 91 1 just now between the jail and County Court at Law, and 2 hopefully expanding to bring the District Courts into it. 3 But my -- my original proposal was to do it over an entire 4 seven-county area, where the judges could be here handling, 5 say, arraignments, pleas, pretrials, handle McCulloch County 6 from here, rather than driving two hours from McCulloch 7 County -- two hours up, two hours back, and losing four hours 8 of judicial time that you could be using disposing of cases. 9 That may be the answer to the question that you asked 10 earlier, Commissioner. But we're going to start off small 11 and see if we can sell it. There are a lot of areas of the 12 state that -- there's a District Judge, for example, down in 13 Montgomery County that, unless there is a jury trial or maybe 14 a contested bench trial, the accused never sets foot into the 15 courtroom. And that's in the same county. Everything is 16 handled on a video teleconferencing setup; the magistration, 17 the arraignment, the pretrial matters and pleas are all done 18 on that setup. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask it in a different 20 way. This -- this money right here, the $24,800 -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- would set up cameras and 23 televisions and that kind of thing. So, you could -- you 24 could take a J.P. and take them in there and sit down, and 25 have Rusty have a patient -- or an inmate -- 4-14-08 92 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Inmate. Either one, right 2 now. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- on the other end. They 4 could magistrate. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. He gets up, and 7 then -- and Judge Brown could do his little thing, whatever 8 all that might be, or a District Judge could -- I mean, we'd 9 be set up for that to happen. I know we're not going to 10 stretch it that far, ask them to come downstairs and do 11 something like that. But could. Could. I mean, because of 12 the cameras and the televisions, it could happen, couldn't 13 it? For this 28 -- 24,800? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: As between the courthouse and the 15 jail, for our in-county prisoners, for the ones that -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: -- they handle upstairs, yeah. 18 Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. All right. That's 20 all I'm asking. But for a little bit more, we probably could 21 add a second little camera upstairs. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Make it easier for them. 23 MR. TROLINGER: It's $9,000. We estimated, 24 actually, for the entire eight count -- eight installations, 25 and it came in around $70,000. So, that was my 4-14-08 93 1 recommendation, that we scale back and -- and try it out 2 first. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think it's very wise. 4 It's very wise. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, what do we need to do? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval of it. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second it. But I want to 8 hear the Judge make a motion, is the issue here. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: You're not going to hear that. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're not? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I think Commissioner Letz just made 12 a motion. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that we 14 approve the proposal from Guardian Security Solutions to 15 furnish and install video teleconferencing system in Kerr 16 County courthouse and jail. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: And authorize me to sign it? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And authorize the County Judge 19 to sign this. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How about this figure? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For $24,800. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, not to exceed. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not to exceed, all right. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 4-14-08 94 1 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second. 2 Question or discussion on the motion? 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: All bidding laws been adhered 4 to on this? 5 MS. HARGIS: That's what I was a little concerned 6 about. I wouldn't mind if he would solicit a couple of other 7 vendors. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Say it again? 9 MS. HARGIS: I wouldn't mind if you at least 10 solicit a couple of other vendors. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I think Mr. Trolinger got some 12 estimates from other vendors. And I had mentioned that 13 earlier, and they were -- 14 MR. TROLINGER: I do have pricing. They are old, 15 and they were not requests for bids; they were just strictly, 16 "How much is it to do this?" requests. 17 MR. EMERSON: Well, and let me ask a question. 18 It's my understanding, from what I heard, that after John's 19 analysis, the software and the technical requirements of this 20 program is what makes it the best fit for our situation. Is 21 that correct? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That was John's conclusion, that the 23 specs of this particular equipment were -- were superior to 24 what else he had looked at. 25 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. And we have that same 4-14-08 95 1 contractor for the courthouse security, who will have a team 2 wiring a very difficult-to-wire courthouse that can, in 3 conjunction, run the wire, and we'll save some money 4 basically by doing that. 5 MR. EMERSON: And is there anything related to this 6 that's -- that's patented or copyright-protected on this 7 particular proposal? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Software. 9 MR. EMERSON: Software-wise. 10 MR. TROLINGER: There are software licenses. 11 MR. EMERSON: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Included in the 24,8? 13 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that means we didn't -- 16 well -- 17 MR. EMERSON: All those factors will come in 18 relative to somebody -- what Jeannie's concerned about is 19 somebody stepping up and saying, "Hey, you just got this 20 price barely under 25 so that we don't have an opportunity." 21 But if -- with all those factors taken into account, I think 22 we're fine, 'cause there's specific allowances in the 23 Purchasing Code for copyrighted, patented software, as well 24 as special technical requirements. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Other questions? All in favor of 4-14-08 96 1 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll go to 6 Item 24; consider, discuss, take appropriate action on 7 amendment of Commissioners Court Order Number 291642 adopting 8 Kerr County Nuisance Abatement Program, to designate the 9 Director of the Environmental Health Department as director 10 of the program. I believe your issue here was that it 11 designated the previous manager or department head of the 12 Environmental Health Department, and you're asking that that 13 order be amended to designate the director -- 14 MR. GARCIA: The director. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: -- of the Environmental Health 16 Department, not a named individual? 17 MR. GARCIA: Exactly, and remove the named 18 individual. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 23 approval. 24 MS. HYDE: Wait, wait, wait. 25 MR. EMERSON: That will work, so long as you 4-14-08 97 1 designate the department head as a full-time employee. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can't say things like 3 that. 4 MR. EMERSON: Apparently not. But the code 5 requires a designation of a full-time employee into that 6 position. So, I mean, under -- I don't anticipate any 7 change, but if you're going to make a global order, -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Come back again. 9 MR. EMERSON: -- you need to designate the 10 full-time department head. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Global order. 12 MS. HYDE: Whoa. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: So, the order should read the 14 full-time director of the Environmental Health Department. 15 MR. EMERSON: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That's the way the motion needs to 17 read. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I said, I think. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I thought that's what I heard you 20 say. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what I seconded. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. All right. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But, actually, I think Bruce 24 seconded it. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's okay. 4-14-08 98 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or discussion? 2 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 3 hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll move 8 to Item 25; consider, discuss, take appropriate action on a 9 presentation of audits on the following departments: 10 Sheriff's petty cash, leasing procedures for Ag Barn and 11 Union Church. Ms. Hargis? 12 MS. HARGIS: We didn't find anything. Of course, 13 we're reviewing the new leasing requirements with Jody, not 14 the old ones. We didn't find any problems there. And this 15 is the Sheriff's petty cash, and we actually increased that 16 so that it was more of a -- of a steady flow, because that's 17 where he takes money out for people to go get prisoners, and 18 sometimes we need a little bit more money in there. So, we 19 increased that amount to make it consistent, but other than 20 that, everything was fine. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you need a specific court 22 order -- 23 MS. HARGIS: No, these are just -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to approve these reports, or 25 these are just informational for the Court? 4-14-08 99 1 MS. HARGIS: Information only. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How do you -- how do you -- 3 now, this is just my boy-dummy question. How do you 4 increase, or even decrease a line without permission of 5 Commissioners Court? 6 MS. HARGIS: It's not a line in our budget. It's 7 his funds. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. These are some 9 separate -- 10 MS. HARGIS: It's a separate petty cash fund that 11 he requested that we audit for him. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, no further action needed. 14 We'll go to 26; consider, discuss, take appropriate action on 15 joint City and County functions. Commissioner Letz? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is an item that's on the 17 agenda based on, basically, the City Council's discussion 18 last week, which Commissioner Williams was at. And that was 19 all -- it came about by weeks of communications I've had with 20 Councilman Hamilton. And -- and I've since talked to two 21 other councilmen, Councilmen Coleman and Bock, about the 22 overall situation. And, somehow, Council was hearing one 23 thing and did -- and thought one thing, and it really got off 24 track at the airport, because somehow they got it in their 25 mind that the County was trying to take over the airport. 4-14-08 100 1 And where they came up with that is beyond me, because I've 2 made it very clear to Mr. Hamilton, Mr. McKenzie, and 3 everybody else I've ever talked to about it that we have no 4 desire to do anything at the airport, you know, other than 5 set it up an independent board. And we've been after that 6 since last August, and it's something that, all along, we've 7 tried to get the City to appoint representatives to meet with 8 us to further that direction, and they still haven't done 9 that. 10 But, anyway, so they got kind of off track there. 11 And then it got off track even more with some members of the 12 Council that said, Well, we don't need to work on any of 13 these City/County functions, because if it isn't fixed -- if 14 it's not broken, we don't need to fix it. And it became 15 apparent that we were just going -- or they were going down a 16 completely different road than where I thought, and I think 17 the Court thought it was going. Councilman Hamilton then 18 came up with the idea that Commissioner Williams and I meet 19 -- or attend the annual retreat of Council and try to -- and 20 try to go over some of the these issues with them. And I 21 talked to Commissioner Williams and kind of said, "What do 22 you think about this?" And he and I both were somewhat 23 reluctant to go meet with them in such an environment 24 where -- you know, one of the conditions we kind of set was, 25 first of all, we're not coming over there to be whipping 4-14-08 101 1 boys. And, two, we really don't want staff in the room, 2 because that's where things tend to digress frequently when 3 we're meeting with the City. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And, thirdly, without the 5 Court acknowledging that that's not a bad idea. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And -- and said we certainly 7 wouldn't go unless the Court said we needed to go. And 8 that's where we are today. I've talked to both Councilmen 9 Bock and Coleman. They think it's a good idea to have us 10 over there, that we can move things along a little bit. I 11 tried to emphasize that if they would just appoint people, 12 either to meet with us on the airport or any of these other 13 committees, rather than sending staff, we'd probably -- we 14 could get a whole lot more accomplished. And a lot of this 15 -- the problem that we're at right now is that Council and 16 City Manager Coleman appointed Kristine -- Ondrias? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ondrias. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ondrias to meet with 19 Commissioner Williams and I. And she came to that meeting, 20 as I think we said at our last meeting, with some 21 preconditions, that everything had to be budget-neutral. And 22 because of that is how the whole airport got brought back 23 into it, that the County -- the only way you can get anywhere 24 close to budget-neutral is -- if the County substantially 25 drops its funding at the library, is to pick it up at the 4-14-08 102 1 airport. And then -- you know, and that was a -- you know, 2 were some of those discussions talked about. But all those 3 discussions came from the City; they didn't come from me or 4 anyone at the County. That I'm aware of, anyway. So, the 5 idea is for Commissioner Williams and I to meet with them at 6 3 o'clock -- I think 3 o'clock -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thursday. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- Thursday, and kind of go 9 back over the same issue. Where we are is that we want to 10 get out of the funding of the library for the most part, at 11 least as a partner. Now, there may be some annual 12 contribution given, but -- and that we want to move forward 13 on the airport with an independent board. And -- and animal 14 control's kinds of in flux a little bit to try to help with 15 the funds. And that's kind of -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just a couple observations. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- where we are. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was at the City Council 19 meeting last Tuesday night and listened to their discussion. 20 And, as -- as Commissioner Letz said, it kind of got off 21 track, because the mayor opined that, "If it ain't broke, 22 don't fix it," which prompted others to comment the same 23 thing. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And once that 24 happened, then the real initiative of trying to work out all 25 of these things just went into the ditch. So, what came out 4-14-08 103 1 of the ditch was a motion to expand the Airport Board. Now, 2 that's okay, because that's been our position since the very 3 beginning. But what never was said, or in that motion, was 4 how you get there. And how you get there is negotiate a new 5 governance agreement with the County. And the County was 6 sort of forgotten in this whole mix. Be that as it may, I 7 think there's probably some value to Commissioner Letz and I 8 meeting with them, with the preconditions he outlined. We 9 don't particularly want to meet with staff; we want to meet 10 with Council. They're the decision makers, as we are the 11 decision makers. And we want to -- want to get back on the 12 table again where these pieces of this puzzle fit together, 13 and how or if they fit together. If they don't, they don't. 14 But one other note. It was never our initiative for the City 15 to convey its 50 percent ownership of the airport to us. 16 We're 50/50 owners, and that's way it ought to continue to 17 be. What needs to happen is an independent board that -- 18 that sets a policy and governs the actions of the -- of the 19 airport itself, both aviation and non-aviation use, and we 20 ultimately end up with some budgetary oversight, and that's 21 what it ought to be. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's interesting. On 23 the airport ownership issue, there's a -- you know, 24 documentation about how it all happened, too, 'cause 25 Councilman Hamilton created this spreadsheet which he sent to 4-14-08 104 1 me about all kinds of things. Now, one of them -- I mean, 2 there's some pretty strange ideas that he had on EMS, for 3 example. I won't go into those details, but -- and the 4 last -- right before Council, the afternoon of last Council 5 meeting, I e-mailed back to him his spreadsheet, revised, and 6 on it I went and said no -- he had, in his to me from a 7 couple days earlier, of transferring some cross-conveyance of 8 owners -- of property at the airport, where the County would 9 take over all aviation assets and the City would keep 10 non-aviation assets. And I said -- my e-mail back to him 11 clearly said no, we need to keep -- stay 50/50, period. You 12 know, that's what it said. I think I did say if you -- if 13 the City wants to give it to us, I'm sure we'll take it, but 14 that's not our request. Council never -- I know they had 15 that document at the Council meeting; Councilman Coleman told 16 me, but they never happened to read what was in the document. 17 They said they didn't have enough time to read it, I guess. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, you know, it's -- it's 20 been rather frustrating, because it's like, you know, you 21 talk to one of them, and then they change their mind the next 22 minute. 23 MR. EMERSON: I was just going to say, I had an 24 e-mail this morning on my computer from Mike Hayes with a 25 proposed new governance agreement in it. I haven't had time 4-14-08 105 1 to look at it or read it or anything else. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well -- 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That was part of my 4 heartburn. That's something that's negotiable with the -- 5 between the City and the County. 6 MR. EMERSON: Well, my response back to Mike this 7 morning was that it has not been discussed at Commissioners 8 Court; I have no guidance on this. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He was -- 10 MR. EMERSON: That's the end of it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As I understand it, he was 12 directed by Council to come up with an agreement. I pretty 13 much let all three councilmen that I've mentioned today know 14 my displeasure with that; that, you know, we're not going to 15 get into this, you know, rejecting that agreement and doing 16 another agreement. We're going to sit down together like 17 adults and discuss where we're going, and then we get the 18 attorneys to write the agreement, period. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's just -- you know, it 21 just astounded me how... Now, one other thing I wanted to 22 bring up, get a little bit of guidance on, is that streets 23 item and how that fits into the mix. When we -- Commissioner 24 Williams and I met with Kristine Ondrias, I made a comment 25 that I thought streets should be taken out of the equation of 4-14-08 106 1 the airport and the library and animal control, because we 2 didn't know where that was going down the road, and I didn't 3 want to tie an agreement dollar-wise -- they came up with a 4 $60,000 figure. I said it made no sense to me to tie $60,000 5 to that when it could be a lot more, a lot less. We need to 6 look at the details behind it, and we need to -- we don't 7 want to encumber what could be a very good program through 8 the City and the County on the streets side with these other 9 matters. What was reported back to Council by Ms. Ondrias 10 was the County didn't want to work on streets; we were taking 11 it off the table. Absolutely untrue. Not at all what we 12 said. We said it needs to be looked at as a separate entity, 13 because it was something that was very different, and that we 14 really at this point didn't have the time to -- or the 15 information to pursue it. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: So, essentially, what you're asking 17 is that to get Court concurrence that you and Commissioner 18 Williams have the ability to go talk directly to the elected 19 officials over at the City, eyeball-to-eyeball across the 20 table, and work on some of these things, and make sure you 21 got a clear understanding of where we are and where they're 22 coming from as elected officials? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Correct. And that's 24 why I brought up all the issues, to make sure that if I am 25 off base on where we're trying to go as a Court, y'all would 4-14-08 107 1 hopefully correct me. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a couple comments 3 to make, and one -- one is that I appreciate y'all coming 4 back to the Court for this -- not necessarily permission, 5 but -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Guidance. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- guidance. Now, remember, 8 I'm a blessing giver, so I can -- I can bless you guys. But 9 I think that's a terrific idea. But a couple of small issues 10 or little details, going back to the airport. You've 11 outlined some things that this autonomous board would be in 12 charge of; basically, everything inside the fence, including 13 hiring and firing the Airport Manager. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly, correct. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My desire is that that be on 16 the list. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That is on the list, 18 Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, good. You didn't 20 mention that, but I think that -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sorry. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- should be right up there. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a given. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: At the top. Okay. I had 25 heard through the grapevine that there was some talk; 4-14-08 108 1 somebody from the City -- one of their recommendations 2 possibly is the County take over the ambulance service. That 3 is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire 4 life. That it -- that's next to impossible, number one. 5 Well, I'm -- that's the last breath I'm going to use on that 6 issue, and I would appreciate it if y'all wouldn't either. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The only -- on that one, that 8 was -- Councilman Hamilton brought that up to me, and I 9 said -- well, one, it doesn't make any sense to me, but I 10 said the only way I could possibly see it work is if you did 11 a county-wide ESD for EMS services only, and that ESD can 12 contract, hopefully, with the City of Kerrville. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the only way -- 14 that's the only way any of that whole thing is going to work. 15 If they -- if we want to take this double taxation issue off 16 the table, a county-wide ESD is the only way to do it. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we either -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do that, or leave it alone. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- go that route or forget 21 it. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's the cost of doing 24 business, quote, unquote. Now, and the only other thing is 25 this talk of, "Well, y'all let us take" -- this is the City 4-14-08 109 1 saying, "Y'all let us take the library. We'll take the 2 library. We'll take the library over." Hell, it's their 3 library. See, I never have gotten -- gotten to the point to 4 where that is even a conversation. It's their library. Take 5 it. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And fund it. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, absolutely, fund it. 8 I don't get that. It's like -- that's like us saying, "Okay, 9 we're going to take over Ranchero Road from now on." You 10 know, it's our road. We take care of it. We've maintained 11 it. We've spent millions on it. By the way, it needs some 12 work. But to me, it's the same thing. It's their property. 13 Take it. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with you. There 15 has been some discussion about -- and we haven't come to any 16 -- any conclusions, but there have been some comments made 17 about our continuing to have some level of participation. 18 Some level. We're up here right now, very close to 50/50, 19 and so there's talk about having some continued level of 20 participation financially, because that assists them in 21 seeking grants, because they can represent that it is a 22 City/County type library situation. And so that -- I just 23 lay that out there, Commissioner; 'cause it's something that 24 might come back. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 4-14-08 110 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I wish they would pursue -- 2 you know, go after some more of those grants for that right 3 now. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Amen. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I haven't noticed any being 6 applied for. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know you haven't. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But that's all I wanted to 9 say. Thank y'all for doing what you're doing. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: You don't need any specific action 11 from the Court, other than -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One of you tell me no if you 13 want me to not go. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, that's Thursday at 3:00. 15 Where at? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At Dietert Center. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Dietert Center, I guess. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So I've been told, 19 unofficially. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, last I was told is, 21 "I don't know where it's at," so I'm learning where it is 22 today. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we'll move on to Item 27; 24 consider, discuss, take appropriate action concerning using 25 inmate work program for designated 501(c)(3) organizations. 4-14-08 111 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We have the inmate work 2 program, and it's a -- under the Attorney General opinion 3 that I attached to this, there are some nonprofit 4 organizations that -- with approval of Commissioners Court, 5 that I can use the inmate work program to help do work on 6 their projects. There is a -- I believe on Page 5 of that 7 Attorney General's opinion, second paragraph, most of it 8 starts about end of the third line, it says, "For that 9 reason, in answer to your first question, we conclude that 10 defendants who volunteer under Article 43.101 to perform 11 manual labor may work for a nonprofit organization only if, 12 in accordance with article 43.10(4) and 43.09, by 13 incorporation, the nonprofit organization is exempt under 14 501(c)(3) of the I.R.S. Code of 1986; and, two, at the 15 Sheriff's request, the commissioners Court has determined 16 that the nonprofit organization provides a public service to 17 the county or to a political subdivision located wholly or 18 partly in the county." 19 I've had two requests for our inmate labor. And 20 bear in mind what Tim presented to y'all earlier, too, about 21 our -- our just workforce situation, period. One of those 22 requests is from the Dietert Center. They have that new 23 building over there off Guadalupe Street, and they would like 24 to have my work crew come over there with B.J. and mow their 25 back yard for them during the summertime, while -- while it's 4-14-08 112 1 growing and that. The second request is from Jack Burch out 2 at the Red Rose Range. That request is, they have about a 3 3,200, 3,500 square foot building out there; I guess they do 4 some of the indoor stuff or whatever, and they're needing the 5 floors buffed. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The new Air Hall. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The new Air Hall, I guess, but 8 I haven't been out there. It's -- Jack told me -- 9 MS. VAN WINKLE: 30,000. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Huh? 30,000, okay. They're 11 needing the buffing. Now, they'll supply the equipment if I 12 supply the labor, is what they're doing. The one thing I 13 will say in respect to that one is that is where we do all 14 our -- our twice-a-year firearms qualifications out there, 15 and we have never been billed for it, either. And so this 16 just -- but I don't know if we can work it out. It may be -- 17 in sidetracking just a little bit, this may be something, 18 with these type of entities coming, for that future use of 19 the old juvenile facility that's not being used. It would 20 cause more manpower, but I think we need to look outside the 21 box and really start creating a good work program. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What kind of program? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Work program. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whether we're doing in-jail 4-14-08 113 1 industries, like part of that I attached to this, making 2 things, I can't house them with regular inmates; it causes 3 problems and that, but where it's actually a work program, 4 chain gang, whatever you want to call it, are permissible. 5 And where we try and get a lot more inmates where there are 6 these, like, 70-violation probation inmates I have where the 7 Court wants to give them just six months in jail. Instead of 8 just sitting there doing nothing, we could use some of them. 9 I don't know. But at hand, I have two requests. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll move we grant the Sheriff 11 approval to use -- what are you going to use? Inmate work -- 12 use inmate -- the inmate work program to assist Dietert 13 Center and the Hill Country Shooting Sports Center. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you want to get specific 16 in there? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: To me, that's all it takes. I 18 don't know that. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We have a motion and a 20 second. Question or discussion on the motion? What was the 21 comment? 22 MR. EMERSON: Do you want it specific, or do you 23 want it to be all designated 501(c)(3)'s? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, it says that you have to 25 show that they have a public use, so I don't know if you can 4-14-08 114 1 really do it under that, whether the nonprofit provides a 2 public service to the county or to a political subdivision 3 only. I don't know if you can say every 501(c)(3) -- 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Case by case. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd rather be specific. 6 There are too many of them out there just to do a blanket. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. 8 MR. EMERSON: And -- and given that language, the 9 order needs to have that language in there where the Court 10 makes those findings. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That those two entities serve 12 -- have a public use, or -- "public use," did we say? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Public purpose? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, public service to the 16 county or to a political subdivision located wholly or 17 partially -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Provide a public service to the 19 county. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll second that, too. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any question or discussion? 22 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 23 hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4-14-08 115 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Item 28; 3 consider, discuss, take appropriate action concerning Kerr 4 County Sheriff's Office personnel with regard to inmate 5 records. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have a volunteer at this 7 time that is helping take care of my inmate records. This 8 person is making three to -- or four to five court 9 appearances a week so that we can make sure we have the 10 translation and the paperwork correct coming back from the 11 court with the inmates. They follow up -- he follows up on 12 all the inmates, double checking, triple checking our time 13 calculations, which also goes back to the courts, the docket 14 entries, bond reductions, maintains our law library, does the 15 legal research for inmates with legal books and documents, 16 answers all of our request forms as far as time served, and 17 answers requests on legal matters and contacts other 18 agencies, which is all over the U.S., concerning their holds 19 still being active or that we're going to send this inmate to 20 T.D.C. first and they can get them -- there's just -- it's a 21 mountain of documentation. And as -- kind of as I've talked 22 about in the executive session item, I'm in the same 23 situation with this one. This man is a retired attorney, and 24 so his knowledge is great. He's worked for us once before 25 for years, and then left and has come back, and I would like 4-14-08 116 1 to try and get this into preferably a full-time position, 2 'cause that is what he's wanting, or at minimum, a part-time 3 position to go full-time possibly during the budget process. 4 But we need this -- this work done. We need our paperwork 5 correct. Very important at that, and I do have the funds in 6 the budget to do it through this year. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where are the funds? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My salary line items. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Who -- without having a person, 10 who is supposed to be doing this now? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Normally, I had been trying to 12 have my Assistant Jail Administrator keep up with a lot of 13 it, and the Jail Administrator themselves, which is tying 14 their hands down to doing a lot of this paperwork instead of 15 all the other duties we're having to try and get done. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're asking me to vote to 17 hire a lawyer? (Laughter.) 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Believe it or not. Retired 19 one, Buster. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Golly, that's a good kind, 21 the retired kind. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's the good ones. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're talking about going 24 part-time -- paying this person part-time now, and then 25 getting, at some point -- oh, in the budget. 4-14-08 117 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In the budget process, trying 2 to make -- turn this into a -- into a full-time position, but 3 at least a part-time position at this point. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How much money are you 5 talking about? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What's the normal part-time? 7 I'd have to look at the hourly wage that a jailer makes, and 8 it would be that same issue. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jailer wage? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Jailer wage. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're going to get a 12 lawyer to work for jailer wage? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I might vote for this after 15 all. Just to see how -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Make the motion. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If he were full-time at a 18 jailer salary the rest of the year, it would be 16,968. 19 That's full-time. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 16? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For the rest of the year, 22 okay. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: For half a year. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For the remainder of the 25 budget year. 4-14-08 118 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. So, you can knock 2 quite a bit of that off. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, for this year. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But we have to think about 6 next year. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Which would be 35,000. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But his salary item won't -- 10 unless we fund it next year, won't be any different. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There you go. 12 MS. HYDE: Plus benefits. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. Well, part-time, it 14 depends on -- 15 MS. HYDE: Well, the understanding -- if I 16 understood you, though, you're talking about making this 17 full -- a full-time position. So -- 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, that would be a budget 19 discussion, actually, when we get into the budgetary process. 20 What I'm asking for now is part-time. And it's hard to do on 21 part-time, because you're talking in court three and four 22 days a week and all that, which those are all-day-long court 23 deals. But we can -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He won't volunteer for part 25 of the time like he's doing now? 4-14-08 119 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I have about abused that 2 as much as I can get by with it. It's been a couple months 3 now, volunteering. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we have an hourly rate? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What is the -- I should have 6 brought that hourly rate for jail personnel. Do you have it? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, would you run down 8 that little list one more time of job duties? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Duties are, he makes four -- a 10 lot of times -- most times, four to five court appearances a 11 week, okay, staying up with what they're actually doing in 12 the courtroom, listening to each inmate. He's not a guard or 13 a bailiff or anything like that. He's listening to what's 14 going on and making the notations. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that a necessary thing? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, it is. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because sometimes we don't get 19 the court paperwork back until the next day. But if they've 20 reduced the bond and allow the guy, you know, on the docket 21 to be able to be released that day, I got to get him released 22 that day. And other times -- Rex has done this to us too at 23 times -- they put strange little quirks in their judgments, 24 the way the Judges do things, and it gets real interesting 25 trying to interpret those by the jail staff. 4-14-08 120 1 MS. HYDE: I'm going to get the book. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So, you have those court 3 appearances. You have follow-up and making sure that all 4 that information is correct. Believe it or not, the courts 5 make mistakes. You know, either the time they've already 6 served in -- served in jail is wrong, or they thought they 7 shouldn't get good time, or I've had Judges order that it's 8 flat time, period. You know, I want them -- that Judge wants 9 them to serve day-for-day, which is illegal. The Judge can't 10 order that; Sheriff has good time abilities. Or you just 11 have blanks filled in incorrectly, you know, wrong number of 12 days or whatever was put into the court judgment, and that 13 has to be corrected. A lot of it, you don't get the 14 paperwork, so at the end of the day you actually try and get 15 a copy of the docket sheet that the Judge had, that he was 16 making his own entries on, and we use that until we can get 17 the court paperwork the next day. Bond reductions are 18 serious. Figures in our jail credit, depending on what type 19 of inmate they are and how long we've had them. We've even 20 kind of halfway tried to develop our own figures to where you 21 figure out what credit -- whether it's just an inmate that 22 hasn't caused any problem or they're an inside trustee or an 23 outside trustee. Maintaining our law library. We have a 24 physical library out there with books that we maintain, and 25 we have a computer law library that we maintain. If they ask 4-14-08 121 1 for a book we don't have, we check them out through Linda 2 upstairs. They're allowed. He retrieves the legal books and 3 documents, answers requests for the good time inmates put out 4 on, "What is my good time on this charge?" And when you have 5 inmates like some of them that have 15, 20 charges on them, 6 that can get very tedious on one inmate, because they're all 7 going to be different. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why is the Assistant Jail 9 Administrator so busy that they can't handle this? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A whole lot of what they're 11 doing now also, Buster, is these transports, whether it's 12 hospital, doctors, dentists, you know, filling in on shift 13 when we're short. We have exactly the number of people per 14 shift, and if you have one out, one calls in sick, one's on 15 vacation, they're working the floor. The -- I've been in the 16 process of renewing my -- my jail standards policies that 17 they have to approve, and I sent them in; they sent them back 18 to me, rejected some the other day, because on, like, our 19 suicide watch, it's normally been a 15-minute, 30-minute, or 20 an hour, you know, as a normal one. The recommendation in 21 writing that I can show you, they sent back the other day, is 22 5 minutes. Just my separation area alone, okay, and those 18 23 cells, by the time you finish your suicide watch on 18 of 24 them, you're started over again. That jailer cannot do 25 anything else 24 hours a day but look in windows of the cell. 4-14-08 122 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're killing me. Answer 2 Letz' question. 3 MR. EMERSON: I'd just like to point out that, 4 given the significant liability concerns, that I think it 5 would be incumbent upon the Sheriff to personally handle this 6 duty. (Laughter.) 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Along with Commissioner 2. 8 MR. EMERSON: Just trying to help you, Rusty. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think the County Attorney 10 needs to come out there and handle this duty. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rusty, looks like it's time 12 for you and me to leave. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. What do we have? 14 Starting jail is -- 15 MS. HYDE: Starting jail is 18.5, and an 18.5 is 16 29,000. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 13.98. 18 MS. HYDE: 13.98 currently. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Fourteen bucks an hour. 20 MS. HYDE: 14 bucks currently. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I didn't know you could get 22 a lawyer for that kind of rate. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I didn't either. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Y'all would know this person 25 if I -- 4-14-08 123 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Might quit using their 2 services. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, now. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the real world. 5 MR. EMERSON: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Excuse me, Judge. No 7 disrespect intended. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Present company excluded. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Gentlemen, what I'm trying to do is 10 get us through here before I fold it up. If we're going to 11 be a while, do you want to break for lunch and come back at, 12 say, 1:30? 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't look at me. I'm always 14 hungry. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to break for lunch, 16 yeah. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to go ahead and finish 18 up? 19 MS. HYDE: You only got one thing left, right? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that we 21 authorize the Sheriff to hire a part-time person at $14 an 22 hour to handle inmate records. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 25 indicated. 4-14-08 124 1 MS. HYDE: At the step and grade, not 14. At what 2 the step and grade is, right? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, at 13.98 an hour. 4 MS. HYDE: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 13.98. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, you want to do this, 7 because this is going to become a permanent person. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, 13.98 an hour. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In keeping with the step 10 and grade. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is an equivalent of a -- 12 MS. HYDE: 18.5. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There you go. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 18.5. Why wouldn't it be -- 15 MS. HYDE: Slash 1. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's a half. 18.5/1. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, okay. 18.5, okay. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Question, discussion on the motion? 19 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 20 hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 25 to 29. 4-14-08 125 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you, gentlemen. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Consider, discuss, take appropriate 3 action concerning Kerr County Sheriff's Office jail personnel 4 in regards to inmate medical. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's the one we discussed 6 during executive. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion we authorize 8 the Sheriff to hire three -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Personnel. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three medical personnel -- what 11 do you call them? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Medical personnel, because we 13 went back to EMT's. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At what? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: At the -- 16 MS. HYDE: It's a -- 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This one depends on their 18 qualification. 19 MS. HYDE: They wouldn't get the nurse's rate, 20 right? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They should get the Step 1 22 nurse or the EMT rate, depending on which one we've got, 23 nursing or LVN's or EMT's. 24 MS. HYDE: On your -- your nurses are 20's and 25 22's. 4-14-08 126 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. At a 20.1 or a 22.1, 2 depending on step and grade. A 22.1 if it's an LVN, and a 3 20.1 if it's an EMT, your EMT special skills. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the funds would come from 5 current salary line items within the budget? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, sir. 7 MS. HYDE: Three? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a motion and a second. 11 Question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 12 by raising your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm in favor of that one. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other action to be taken by any 19 member of the Court as a result of matters discussed in 20 executive session? Let's move to Section 4 of the agenda, 21 payment of the bills. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I move we pay our 23 bills. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to pay the 4-14-08 127 1 bills. Any discussion? Page 22, J.P. 4. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Uh-oh. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Uh-oh. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Five Star Wireless, $65.74. It is 5 my desire that we not pay that bill, and return to Judge 6 Ragsdale $28.75 which he tendered as, quote, his contribution 7 on the bill. He got the memo like everybody else. If he 8 wants to do a cell phone, he gets one. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So he chose not to get a 10 County-issued cell phone? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I guess he chose not to. He didn't. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He did not get a county cell 13 phone, but it's under this same company -- provider, Five 14 Star. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And he -- what was the rest 17 of it? You're going to give him back some money? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: He tendered a check -- I checked the 19 item, and he tendered -- he sent a check dated April the 1st 20 for $28.75 as, quote, his personal portion of that bill. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. So, he used the phone 22 for his personal use, and he's simply paying the County back, 23 and that's a no-no, obviously. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, if he wants a personal cell 25 phone, he can have one. If he wants a county cell phone, he 4-14-08 128 1 can have one of those. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm with you. That was the 3 agreement we made. And -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, and I verified that, in fact, 5 he -- he did receive the notice that everybody else got. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So -- and then -- so what 7 you want to do is reimburse him that 25 bucks or whatever it 8 was. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: 28.75. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 28.75, and you want to send 11 him the memo again? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think the idea is we 13 don't pay the bill. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He'll get the idea then? 15 He'll figure it out? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I would sure hope so. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: May not, but -- you know. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think this printout, 19 Judge, is kind of interesting. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That the Auditor is 22 providing us in terms of utilization, which supports the 23 notion that -- that there are some in our midst who still 24 maintain their own phones, and only use the county phone very 25 -- on a very limited basis. 4-14-08 129 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. My question on that 2 thing was D.P.S. numbers. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 4 MS. HARGIS: Well, they're just moving over, the 5 D.P.S. Now, they -- I think we looked at theirs, and they're 6 -- because they're out of the area a lot of times, that's one 7 of the reasons why theirs may be a little bit more. So -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How many do -- 9 MR. EMERSON: Can I ask a naive question? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 11 MR. EMERSON: Are we providing cell phones to DPS 12 officers? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hope not. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: To one. 15 MR. EMERSON: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To the weights and scales 17 guy, I would -- that was my guess. 18 MR. TROLINGER: It's -- I believe it's six. Is 19 that correct? It's six. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: No, that's right. 21 MR. TROLINGER: They replaced the -- previously, 22 they replaced the pagers that the County had provided. 23 MS. HARGIS: Yeah, they don't get pagers any more. 24 MR. TROLINGER: Which were more expensive. 25 MS. HARGIS: They don't have pagers any more. They 4-14-08 130 1 actually have these instead, so it was kind of a swap in the 2 budget. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: So, this is for a bunch of phones? 4 MS. HARGIS: Yeah, it's for six. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Less than 20 bucks a piece. 6 MS. HARGIS: Yeah, and I think -- I want to say the 7 pagers were about $20, weren't they? Something like that? 8 I've forgotten. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 17.95 a month for pagers. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: How much? 11 MS. HARGIS: 17.95. And they weren't even using 12 the pagers; they were in a drawer. 13 MR. TROLINGER: And the average cost per cell phone 14 is approximately $15. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 16.05. 16 MS. HYDE: 16.05. I signed mine. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Other questions or comments? 18 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 19 hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does that motion include 25 this issue with J.P. 4? 4-14-08 131 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Removal of it. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I assume that's the direction the 4 Auditor's going to go with it, yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Budget amendments. We have a 7 summary sheet that was furnished with seven different budget 8 amendments down there. Do I hear a motion that the budget 9 amendments as represented by the summary sheet be approved as 10 submitted? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I so move. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 14 approval of the budget amendments as per the summary. 15 Question or discussion on the motion? All in favor of the 16 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Do we have 21 any late bills? 22 MS. HARGIS: No late bills. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm sorry. 24 MS. HARGIS: Just a couple things on mine. From 25 mine, we did save -- get refunds of another $9,300 on 4-14-08 132 1 Indigent Health Care this month from claims that we're 2 turning back. And I also gave y'all a new little booklet 3 here that was budget versus actual, with a few graphs, just 4 so you could look at them. We kind of vary those a little 5 bit. And, feedback. Liked them? Didn't like them? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I haven't looked at it yet. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I reviewed them, and I thought 8 the -- the attorney's fees was very enlightening. Obviously, 9 our budgeting process worked better this year than it did the 10 previous year. 11 MS. HARGIS: So, it's interesting to look, 'cause 12 you have a two-year comparison there, and so sometimes graphs 13 kind of jump at you a little bit more. Okay. I just kind of 14 wondered. Let me know. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I have been presented with monthly 16 reports from Constable, Precinct 1; Constable, Precinct 2; 17 Constable, Precinct 3; and Constable, Precinct 4; Justice of 18 the Peace, Precinct 2; Justice of the Peace, Precinct 3; 19 County Clerk, both General and Trust Funds; District Clerk, 20 Environmental Health; and Road and Bridge. Do I hear a 21 motion that those reports be approved as presented? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 25 approval of the reports as presented. Question or 4-14-08 133 1 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 2 your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Any reports 7 from Commissioners on their committee or liaison assignments? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I'm the new cell 9 phone billing liaison. The -- (Laughter.) On this list, 10 we're just talking about the DPS and all those things. I 11 just -- I don't know why I missed this last night, but this 12 text messaging issue, this note on here. Who'd you point to? 13 MS. HARGIS: John. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: John, why is the JDC -- or 15 do we not pay for text messaging? 16 MR. TROLINGER: We do not, as part of the 17 blanket -- the county contract, pay for text messaging. It 18 is an additional cost on a per -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, what do we do about 20 this? Wouldn't you handle this exactly the same way you did 21 J.P. 4, with a cell phone? 22 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. But the JDC has -- has 23 requested the text messaging capability. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Why do they need text messaging 25 capability? 4-14-08 134 1 MR. TROLINGER: I understand it's something in 2 conjunction with court, but I don't know specifically. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can see how it would work. 4 You know, if you have an officer in a courtroom, you don't 5 want your phone ringing. You just simply send a message. I 6 mean, I can see where you'd want it. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Under those circumstances, it would 8 make sense. 9 MR. TROLINGER: In lieu of a blanket contract 10 increase, we -- it's a specific case-by-case basis for text 11 messaging. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Would you do a follow-up on that, 13 John, and see if that's necessary? 14 MR. TROLINGER: Yes, I will. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Four dollars -- $3.90. I 16 like text messaging. It's convenient. I mean, I use it a 17 lot. It's convenient for me. I can sit in church and 18 communicate -- (Laughter.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't believe I'd have told that. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- with all kind of folks. 21 Well, I can tell it here. Nobody from my church is here. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That means you've tuned out 23 the minister. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's in between naps? In 4-14-08 135 1 between nap time? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, in between the naps. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other reports from the cell 4 phone overseer? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, and I'm resigning that 6 position as of right now. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only that the C.P. 9 door-to-door survey is underway, and it is meeting with the 10 desired results. Keep you posted. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Three? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We already covered all mine. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe we did. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't have enough time to 15 talk about all mine, so I think I'll just let it go. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I do have one thing. 17 The hysterical -- Historical Commission had a function over 18 the weekend, and they had this large -- maybe larger than 19 that Kerr County map there -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Little smaller. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Little bit smaller than 22 that, Bill says -- saith Number 2 -- that after their little 23 art show is complete over here across the street, they 24 want -- they're going to donate that, and it's really, really 25 a neat drawing -- painting. 4-14-08 136 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a depiction of an 2 Apache encampment someplace north of Uvalde, in the hill 3 country, back in the days when the Apaches had encampments. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. So, it takes both of 5 us to do this thing. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably some of your relatives. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It could be. I recognize 8 some of them. But they're going to donate -- donate that 9 thing to the County, and want us to hang it out in the 10 hallway, so y'all be thinking about that. You figure out a 11 way to say no, not I. 12 MS. HARGIS: We kind of need a special meeting on 13 the 18th, if we can have it, for the -- because the cars are 14 coming in for bid that day, if it would be possible. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: When is that? Friday? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What, now? 17 MS. HARGIS: The 18th. I think it is a Friday. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Say it again? 19 MS. HARGIS: Friday, the 18th, is when we're taking 20 the bids on the cars. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This coming Friday. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I will not be here. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can, but why would I -- 25 why would I want to be here? 4-14-08 137 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Friday, the 18th, we're 2 back. 3 MS. HARGIS: We -- we just -- since we had a little 4 bit of difficulty there, it would be kind of nice to make it 5 a little smoother by just having a special meeting. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Bids are due to be submitted by 11 7 a.m.; is that correct? 8 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: These are for what cars? 10 MS. HYDE: The Environmental Health and Animal 11 Control. And -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why do we have to have a 13 meeting to accept the bids? 14 MS. HARGIS: What time? I think probably about 15 1 o'clock, 1:00 or 1:30. 16 MS. HYDE: All bids have to be in by 11 a.m. 17 MS. HARGIS: Or we could make it, you know, 11:30, 18 'cause they have to be here. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can't be here then. If 20 you want to make it around 2:00, I can be here. 21 MS. HARGIS: It shouldn't take very long. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 2:00's fine. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, got you. Thank you. Any 24 other elected officials? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Last thing is, Judge, was part 4-14-08 138 1 of the courthouse security installation is starting in about 2 two weeks, and it will be some pretty major installation, 3 about 48 cameras, 50 buttons, and there will be a lot of 4 activities trying to get all that installed. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Am I going to get a button 6 for my desk? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, not you, Buster. The rest 8 of them may, but not Buster. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to see if the things 10 work. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You'll be playing with it. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 13 MS. HYDE: Tuesday and Thursday, H.R. will be doing 14 training at the JDC. We're working with not just the JDC, 15 but also Clete Buckaloo's crew will be coming to the 16 training. And then Wednesday, we'll be at the courthouse 17 most of the day with Cigna for the long-term and the 18 short-term disability. That's a lot better than what we had 19 before. And then in the afternoon, we'll be at Road and 20 Bridge, and hopefully at the Sheriff's Office with all of his 21 people coming on the way out of work or into work for a 22 10-minute -- it's 10 minutes. It only takes 10 minutes. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's encouraging. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Is that it? We're adjourned. 25 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 12:50 p.m.) - - - - - - - - - - 4-14-08 139 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 18th day of April, 2008. 8 9 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 10 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 11 Certified Shorthand Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4-14-08