1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, July 14, 2008 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X July 14, 2008 2 PAGE --- Visitors' Comments 6 3 --- Commissioners' Comments 9 4 1.1 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action regarding cattle guards across roads in Kerr 5 County and adjoining counties 11 6 1.2 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to amend the variance given on proposed plat for 7 Live Springs Ranch, Court Order #30856 47 8 1.3 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action regarding resolution signed in support of Hill 9 Country County Coalition, Court Order # 30877 48 10 1.7 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to adopt a resolution honoring the lives of Ross 11 and Clarabelle Snodgrass and their service to the people of Kerr County on the occasion of 12 their 75th wedding anniversary 54 13 1.4 Consider/discuss, approve the appointment of election judges and alternates for term of one 14 year in accordance with Texas Election Code 59 15 1.5 Consider/discuss approving polling locations in accordance with Chapter 43 of Texas Election Code 60 16 1.6 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 17 obtain required recertification by Texas Juvenile Probation Commission for Kevin Stanton as Juvenile 18 Detention/Probation Officer; allow County Judge to authorize such request for recertification 61 19 1.8 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action 20 concerning Kerr County policy for emergency response on non-maintained roads 61 21 1.9 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action 22 concerning use of Schreiner Trust Fund for projects in Pct. 1 & Pct. 4 105 23 1.10 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action 24 concerning the renewal of Letter of Escrow for BTEX RANCH, L.P., Pct. 3 111 25 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) July 14, 2008 2 PAGE 1.21 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 3 request from Texas Parks and Wildlife to use office space at one of the Kerr County facilities 113 4 1.11 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 5 approve service contract for the plat scanner/ plotter for another year; authorize County Judge 6 to sign contract 122 7 1.12 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to review and acknowledge quarterly report from 8 Patterson & Associates 123 9 1.13 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to provide funding for the cost of transfer of 10 volunteer fire department dispatch from police department to Kerr County Sheriff's Office as 11 requested by Kerrville Police Department 124 12 1.14 Consider/discuss, approve deletion of one sergeant position and addition of one patrol 13 deputy position 126 14 1.15 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action regarding long range plan for Kerr County Jail 15 and radio system 128 16 1.16 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action regarding proposal from second healthcare 17 provider for inmate health care and possible impact on budget 161 18 1.17 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 19 approve contingency agreement Between Kerrville State Hospital, Kerrville I.S.D. and Kerr County; 20 allow County Judge to sign same 165 21 1.18 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to formulate a general public records retention 22 policy for county documents and communications 166 23 1.19 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve resolution in support of federal funding 24 for construction phase of new facility to house Knipling-Bushland U.S. Livestock Insect Research 25 Laboratory 173 4 1 I N D E X (Continued) July 14, 2008 2 PAGE 3 1.20 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on Russ Reid Company proposal to work on behalf of 4 Kerr County to obtain funding for various study and road construction projects --- 5 1.22 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 6 approve order from Judge Ables appointing a part-time Assistant Auditor position 177 7 4.1 Pay Bills 180 8 4.2 Budget Amendments 183 4.3 Late Bills --- 9 4.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 188 10 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee Assignments 189 11 5.2 Reports from Elected Officials/Department Heads 190 5.3 Reports from others 191 12 --- Adjourned 197 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 On Monday, July 14, 2008, at 9:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 8 Let me call to order this regularly scheduled meeting of the 9 Kerr County Commissioners Court scheduled and posted for this 10 time and date, Monday, July 14th, 2008, at 9 a.m. It is that 11 time now. Commissioner Oehler? 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes. If you would join me 13 with a word of prayer, and followed by the pledge of 14 allegiance? 15 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. At this time, if there's 17 any member of the public or the audience that wishes to be 18 heard on any item that is not a listed agenda item, feel free 19 to come forward at this time and tell us what's on your mind. 20 If you wish to speak on an agenda item, we would ask that you 21 fill out a participation form. They're located at the back 22 of the room, or should be. It's not essential that you do 23 that, but it helps me to be sure that I know that there's 24 someone who wishes to be heard on an agenda item from the 25 audience. If you haven't filled out a participation form and 7-14-08 6 1 wish to be heard on an agenda item, get my attention when we 2 are at that agenda item, and I'll see that you have the 3 opportunity to be heard. But right now, if there's any 4 member of the audience or the public that wishes to be heard 5 on any matter that is not listed as an agenda item, please 6 come forward at this time and tell us what's on your mind. 7 Mr. Evans? If you'll come forward and give us your name and 8 address, please, sir. 9 MR. EVANS: All right. I'm Von Evans; I live at 10 211 Von Trail in Kerrville Country Estates just north of 11 Interstate 10. One of the things that I wanted to bring up 12 today is the fact that my nonagricultural use property values 13 last year went up 20 percent. This year they went up 14 80 percent. I don't know what authority you people have over 15 the Appraisal District, but I called the Appraisal 16 District -- I didn't even make a formal complaint to them 17 because I knew that it would be worthless, a waste of time. 18 And the fellow that I talked to said, "You're exactly right. 19 People come in and they pay exorbitant prices for a piece of 20 property next to you, and then your property value becomes 21 what they paid for it, regardless of how stupid they may have 22 been." And he said, "But that's the law, and we have to go 23 by the law." 24 Well, something's got to be done about this. And I 25 don't know what effect you people can have on it, but he 7-14-08 7 1 said, "Well, you don't have to worry; you're over 65." And I 2 think that's obvious. But -- but the -- the whole point is, 3 one of these days I'm going to get hit in the face with a 4 shovel, and then my kids are going to end up with that 5 property. Then they're going to end up paying the property 6 taxes that they have so joyously placed upon me with an 7 80 percent increase. I have people calling me complaining 8 about the fact that their property value had gone up 9 15 percent, and I said, "Don't cry. Try 80." And they 10 couldn't believe it till I showed them. Anyway, but -- okay. 11 Now, another thing, too, is the -- our community -- 12 I know you're going to talk about this, and so I'll just 13 throw this in there. Under state law right now, the J.P. has 14 the right to enforce community restrictions in an 15 unincorporated area. And I know you're going to talk about 16 community restrictions in unincorporated areas, and I'm 17 interested to hear what you have to say about that, because 18 we already have a legal leg, you might say, that can govern 19 activities in that area. But one of the things that I'm most 20 greatly concerned about is that I paid a lot of money to 21 drill my well. Then a neighbor of mine who did likewise, his 22 well went dry back in -- in 2006 when we had that long 23 drought, and he had to have a 50-foot extension put on. 24 That's at the time that they were talking about putting that 25 golf course right across Highway 16 from our community. 7-14-08 8 1 Well, that -- that really got my back up, you know? 2 And so now they're -- I've heard talk about they're 3 going to put meters on your wells out there, so if you use 4 more water than we think that you should be allowed to use, 5 then you may be charged for doing so. I don't think that's 6 quite right. Under state law, I have the right of capture, 7 which means I drill that well; I can use that water. And for 8 somebody to come put a meter on my well, if that meter 9 breaks, are they going to pay for it, or are they going to 10 charge me to install the meter, or what in the heck are they 11 going to do? And that's my private well, and without any 12 recourse whatsoever, they're going to come put a meter on my 13 well? And then they're going to charge me for using excess 14 water, in their opinion, while they -- we've got more golf 15 courses in this community per capita than any other city in 16 the state of Texas. My son looked that up on the computer -- 17 you know, on the e-mail, or what do you call it? I'm not 18 computer friendly by a long shot. But, anyway, he said, 19 "Man, I can't believe y'all got all those golf courses." I 20 said, "Well, we have a lot of visitors." But we also have a 21 lot of people moving here. And when you're running this 22 short on water, then sooner or later somebody's going to have 23 to say, "Come visit the beautiful Hill Country, but don't 24 move here unless you bring your own water." Thank you. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Evans. 7-14-08 9 1 (Applause.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: If there's any other member of the 3 public or the audience that wishes to be heard on any matter 4 that is not a listed agenda item, feel free to come forward 5 at this time. Seeing no one else coming forward, we will 6 move on with our agenda. Commissioner Oehler, what do you 7 have for us this morning? 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not really anything. I just 9 hope people don't -- don't try to burn anything right now, 10 with as dry as it is. I think we got through 4th of July 11 pretty well. Anyway, nothing else. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Baldwin? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All clear, Judge. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just a quick comment. 16 Mr. Evans, I share your concerns about water, and I hope you 17 and everyone else that applauded goes to Headwaters meetings, 18 'cause they're the ones that govern the body of underground 19 water in this county. We have nothing to do with it. I 20 personally believe we have all the water underground that we 21 need for a long, long time, and I think that Headwaters needs 22 to hear from the citizens of this county, because they kind 23 of go awry sometimes. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me add a caveat to 25 that. They talked about some rule changes at their last 7-14-08 10 1 meeting, and they were postponed because some members of the 2 public were there and said, "We didn't know you were 3 proposing rule changes," and so they were postponed, I think, 4 till the next meeting. It would behoove the public who's 5 interested in these issues to be there, because you don't 6 know what they're going to do if you're not there. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 8 MR. ROESCH: Mr. Williams, if I might add, it has 9 been postponed till October. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. It's been 12 postponed till October. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: With regard to the Appraisal 14 District issue, the degree of control we have, we participate 15 to a small degree in approving or disapproving the budget for 16 the Appraisal District. Once that budget is approved, we pay 17 our pro rata part. Beyond that, we use their values, because 18 we're mandated by law to use their values. That's pretty 19 much it in a nutshell. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I might also add, Judge, that 21 we voted against that budget because of our displeasure with 22 that Appraisal District and the way they've done things 23 recently. I think the last two years, we have been the only 24 entity to vote against their budget, and it has been passed 25 over our objection. 7-14-08 11 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't -- I don't know if there 2 were others that -- that joined us. We asked them to join us 3 last year, as I recall, but the budget was approved. It's 4 weighted by -- by either the amount of valuation or the 5 amount of tax, I'm not sure. I think it's the amount of tax. 6 The school district has the largest degree of participation 7 in approving that budget, and then I think it's probably -- I 8 don't know whether it's us or the City. One or the other. 9 Whichever one it isn't, that's the third one, and then it 10 scales down with others. But we -- we certainly don't 11 control it. Obviously, we don't, or it would have been 12 disapproved last year. But that's pretty much our 13 participation. 14 Let's get on with our agenda, if we might. The 15 first item on the agenda is to consider, discuss, and take 16 appropriate action regarding cattle guards across roads in 17 Kerr County and adjoining counties. This agenda item was 18 placed on the agenda at the request of Mr. Richard Bohnert. 19 Mr. Bohnert, if you'll come forward and give us your name and 20 address? 21 MR. BOHNERT: I'm Richard Bohnert, 200 Weston Road, 22 Comfort, and I'm wanting to talk about cattle guards on 23 Wilson Creek Road and other roads in the area. And I have a 24 few pictures. I want to make a few statements and ask a few 25 questions. 7-14-08 12 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Could I ask you one quick 2 question? 3 MR. BOHNERT: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you going to -- excuse 5 me. Are you going to get outside the county -- a county 6 road? 7 MR. BOHNERT: No. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Strictly county roads, not 9 state highways? 10 MR. BOHNERT: Well, I'm not going to ask questions 11 about state highways, but -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Because we don't have 13 anything to do with that. 14 MR. BOHNERT: I understand. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I just wanted to make 16 sure. There's some folks in the room that live on a state 17 highway with cattle -- cattle guards, and I didn't know if 18 you were going to address that or not. 19 MR. BOHNERT: Okay. So, Kerr County has strict 20 specs most developers have to follow to put in roads, whether 21 they're private or county-maintained. There should not be a 22 double standard, in my opinion. County employees should have 23 to follow their own specs. Commissioners and Road Engineer 24 or Administrator should make sure all road repair and 25 construction meets county specs. Cattle guards that were 7-14-08 13 1 supposed to be reinstalled on Wilson Creek Road were placed 2 on top of the road. Then fill dirt was filled up to the 3 cattle guards, and some gravel and tar was put over the fill. 4 Not only do I think this is a safety hazard by not installing 5 them properly; it also shows how corrupt the County is by 6 placing different standards for different people. The 7 different standards are set for the county than for the 8 developers, which is a violation of state standard for roads 9 and subdivision, which the County shall follow 232.001 10 standard for roads and subdivision. A county may not impose, 11 under Section 232.003, a higher standard for streets or roads 12 in a subdivision than the County imposes on itself for the 13 construction of streets or roads with a similar type and 14 amount of traffic. Therefore, I am requesting the cattle 15 guards be installed properly as they were before Road and 16 Bridge Department unlawfully removed them on Wilson Creek 17 Road. 18 On Dally Road, Lasso Ranch has 19 lots which are 19 all fenced off of the road, but there is a new cattle guard 20 installed where Dally Road enters Hasenwinkel. Their cattle 21 guard is not just set on top of the road. Why can a new 22 cattle guard be put in on Dally Road, and on Wilson Creek 23 Road, y'all are wanting to take out cattle guards which have 24 been in since the county got the easement? I'm wondering, is 25 this because of certain developers or something, or why is 7-14-08 14 1 this allowed when we're talking about taking cattle guards 2 out? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know anything -- I 4 don't know what you're talking about. You're looking at me. 5 I don't -- Road and Bridge is here. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What precinct are you 7 talking about? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're in Precinct 3. 9 MR. BOHNERT: Precinct 3. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I -- I have no backup in my 11 agenda. You didn't provide us anything to look at. 12 MR. BOHNERT: Should I have to? I mean, they had 13 to be approved to be put in. It's going across a county 14 road, coming off of one county road, going to another road. 15 Why should I be the one that has to provide that information? 16 I wasn't allowed to provide information on why my cattle 17 guards shouldn't be ripped out. They were ripped out. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You put the agenda item on. 19 The backup, anything you wanted us to look at ahead of time, 20 you should have provided us, or told us at least. I have no 21 idea what your agenda item is about, other than county policy 22 for cattle guards. So, if you want to get -- you know, I'm 23 glad to look with you, and I'll be glad to meet with you with 24 Road and Bridge. 25 MR. BOHNERT: Okay, we can do that. I'm just 7-14-08 15 1 wanting answers. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean -- 3 MR. BOHNERT: I also feel like that Jonathan Letz 4 and Leonard Odom do not want to remove cattle guards 5 throughout the county, or they would not allow more new 6 cattle guards and would be removing every cattle guard as 7 soon as the properties between the cattle guards are fenced. 8 South Fork Road has a severely damaged cattle guard, only 9 12 feet wide with no side fencing. All property is fenced on 10 both sides of the road. This has been so for years. Other 11 cattle guards that were in the same or similar situation I 12 know of are one on Hasenwinkel Road, one on Allerkamp Road 13 where Cypress Creek -- where Allerkamp Road meets Cypress 14 Creek Road, two on Stoneleigh Road, one by the schoolhouse 15 and the other by Leonard Balkman properties. These are just 16 a few cattle guards I know of from roads I travel while on 17 business calls. I feel safe to say there are many more 18 cattle guards that are not in service and have not been 19 removed. This is how I know there is some other reason that 20 Letz, Odom, and Koennecke want to take out three cattle 21 guards on Wilson Creek Road. 22 Letz made a false statement in the property, saying 23 I was the only one against removal of cattle guards; all 24 other property owners affected by the cattle guards do not 25 want them removed. They were all here at the March '08 7-14-08 16 1 Commissioners Court and voiced their opinions very strong. 2 They want the cattle guards to stay. Jay Colvin, if he had 3 anything to say about that, he is not an owner affected by 4 those cattle guards. Those cattle guards do not come across 5 any of his property. He has plenty access from Highway 27 if 6 he has any problem with those cattle guards. He does not 7 need to use that road; he can use Highway 27, which is where 8 he has access to his property. The situation is no different 9 than the property shown on the picture in the July 5 and 6, 10 2008 Daily Times paper. There's a cattle guard with a fence 11 on one side of Fall Creek Road. How does Mr. Holekamp feel 12 about this, or is he another one who is exempt? 13 This is not considered open range, as each property 14 owner owns the property all the way across the road on Wilson 15 Creek Road. That means the entire easement is on one 16 property -- in one person's property, from property line to 17 property line. There is still open range in Texas. Examples 18 of this are in Falling Waters, The Reserve, Tierra Linda, and 19 Y.O. Ranch, where property is being sold and they are not 20 allowed to fence. If we don't have open range in Texas, then 21 those need to be addressed also, and those people can start 22 paying their property taxes on their property which could not 23 be ag exempt. They cannot fence it, so that is open range. 24 Open range -- my understanding of the law is, open range is 25 when you're grazing from one property owner's property to 7-14-08 17 1 another, and not going across a road that goes through your 2 property. That is not open range. That property is fenced; 3 it's just that it has a county road going through it. 4 If we're going to do where we're not going to have 5 grazing on the right-of-ways, then everybody that has 6 property where that county road goes through, they have to 7 fence on both sides of the road, not -- not just one or two 8 people. If the County has additional funds that need to be 9 gotten rid of by taking out cattle guards, why don't you just 10 take that additional money and return that to the taxpayers? 11 Is there anything -- any answers to this? Why would we want 12 to have some people fencing off their property and others 13 not, when we have cattle guards on county roads that are 14 already fenced off? The cattle guards are not in service. 15 They have no side fencing to them, and they've been in there 16 like that for years. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're working on a policy right 18 now, county-wide. 19 MR. BOHNERT: Okay. Why are we going to take 20 cattle guards out that are in service before we take out any 21 other cattle guards or come up with any kind of a policy? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That road was under 23 construction, was being rebuilt. 24 MR. BOHNERT: There's other roads that have had 25 construction on them, too. And if they're in service, it 7-14-08 18 1 shouldn't matter. They've all been -- other roads have been 2 repaired with cattle guards on them. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mr. Bohnert, I know you're 4 taking an adverse -- or you feel like this is an adverse 5 issue here, and please don't take me that way, 'cause I'm 6 trying to figure out -- 7 MR. BOHNERT: I understand. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- what the hell you're 9 talking about. Back to this issue of Mr. Colvin being able 10 to access his property from somewhere else, he doesn't need 11 to drive down your road, is that not a public road? 12 MR. BOHNERT: All I'm saying is -- yeah, he can 13 drive down -- I'm not trying to keep him from driving down -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, I'm trying to figure 15 out -- do you think that you own that road? 16 MR. BOHNERT: No. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where the cattle guards -- 18 okay. 19 MR. BOHNERT: No. No. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 21 MR. BOHNERT: My -- my con -- what I'm talking 22 about there is someone that is not adversely affected by 23 those cattle guards being able to say something about getting 24 them out of there. In other words, what I'm saying is -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. He would have the 7-14-08 19 1 right to voice his concern to get -- leave them in or take 2 them out, though. He's a -- he's a -- he's a taxpayer. He 3 owns that road just like you do. So, I mean, that's beside 4 the point. That's a silly issue. But I'm just trying to 5 figure out where you're coming from. I want to take your 6 side. 7 MR. BOHNERT: I don't know who is behind this 8 getting those cattle guards taken out. That's what my point 9 is. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it was -- it's -- 11 MR. BOHNERT: And I understand and I appreciate 12 your comments in the paper, because I feel like you do 13 understand. This is -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm trying to -- 15 MR. BOHNERT: Some people are using cattle guards 16 to maintain or control their livestock. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me talk. I'm trying to 18 figure out -- we've been told that it's a safety issue. Now, 19 I've kind of come to the place to where -- how did we make 20 that decision? What -- what criteria did we use to decide 21 that it's safe or unsafe? And that's where I'm going to go 22 with this thing. If it's -- if it's -- you know, if the 23 County Engineer says it's unsafe, and somebody that's a lot 24 smarter than I am, which the room's full of people, like the 25 County Attorney, as an example, or somebody that says, "Yes, 7-14-08 20 1 this cattle guard's unsafe," that thing needs to go. It is 2 simple as that. People's safety -- the driving public's 3 safety is a lot more important than your cow, where your cow 4 eats. But if we can't deem that it's unsafe, we can't prove 5 that it's unsafe, my god, how -- are we going to do this the 6 rest of our lives? It reminds me of Bill sitting there and 7 the septic tanks 20 years ago. This thing's going to take us 8 to the grave if we're not careful. But, anyway, that's all 9 I've got to say. Thank you for your comments. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With respect to Fall Creek 11 Road, there is no issue on Fall Creek Road. I've spoken with 12 Mr. Holekamp, and I know the other landowner where there is 13 cattle guards and he has cattle roaming. There is no issue 14 on Fall Creek Road. There may be one or two on Fall Creek 15 Road early up on the road that could stand to be removed, but 16 there is no issue with respect to people who have cattle -- 17 who have property on both sides of the road, one side being 18 unfenced. So, let's just take Fall Creek Road out of the 19 equation. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Richard, you and I have talked, 21 I don't know, an untold number of times on the issue of -- 22 you know, the cattle guards were taken out. They were taken 23 out incorrectly from the standpoint notice was not given to 24 you ahead of time, or not -- actually shouldn't have been 25 given to you; it should have been given to Mr. Williamson, 7-14-08 21 1 the Simpkins, and some other people. You don't own that land 2 where the cattle guards were removed. 3 MR. BOHNERT: Yes, I do. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The other portion of it is that 5 where -- where ownership has changed, fences have been built, 6 a lot has changed on that road, and we were doing a 7 rehabilitation of that road. That's why those three cattle 8 guards came out. You're aware of that. The request came 9 from the landowners -- property owners to put them back in. 10 They were done; they were put back in. And I believe all the 11 property owners have received notice of the County's intent 12 to take those out in six months. We're working on a 13 county-wide policy which is going to address the ones -- I 14 agree with you; the one on South Fork, that needs to come 15 out. There's other ones. If there is no reason for the 16 cattle guard to be there, they're not in service, in other 17 words, they're not holding cattle anywhere or livestock 18 anywhere, they need to come out. That's all I've ever said. 19 And Road and Bridge came up with a policy at our last meeting 20 and I think we rejected it, said it was too broad, and we 21 were waiting for a new policy to be drafted again. I 22 recommend that you look at the agenda, as you do, on a 23 regular basis. When that comes back, give us your input on 24 it, 'cause I think we need to address a standard policy as to 25 what cattle guards need to come out in this policy if they're 7-14-08 22 1 needed, if they're controlling livestock, there's no fences 2 on both sides of the road, yeah. 3 MR. BOHNERT: Well, now that you brought that up 4 about that fencing, the fencing was not there when those 5 cattle guards were taken out. When Bryant Williamson was 6 putting in -- started to put in fencing, Doug Koennecke came 7 over there took it on him -- on his own self to go over there 8 and tell him where he needs to put his fence, and he set the 9 fence out farther than what the easement is, an additional 10 10 feet. And the traffic on that road that you've made 11 comments about, the subdivision that's going in up there at 12 that 250 acres; that's only ten lots, max. There may be 13 people that buy double lots out there. There has been no 14 additional traffic put in there. And at that point, the 15 road -- the minimum on that road is 40 feet wide. 16 Immediately past my cattle guards, my last cattle guard 17 there, it drops down to 30 feet. Over by Doug Koennecke's, 18 it is 30 feet from fence to fence. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Has he subdivided his property? 20 MR. BOHNERT: Wait a minute. Right next to him, 21 just east of him, there is a subdivision that has eight 22 houses -- seven or eight houses out on Sakewitz Lane. And 23 right across from that is Harmony Lane, which has six or 24 seven houses on there, and I believe there's 10 or 11 lots in 25 that subdivision. Anywhere those people go, where there is 7-14-08 23 1 already a lot of traffic coming onto Wilson Creek Road, they 2 have a 30-foot-wide easement. Doesn't matter whether they go 3 east on Wilson Creek Road or west on Wilson Creek Road; they 4 have a 30-foot-wide easement till they got to our property, 5 and our property is the one that's being targeted. It 6 already has the widest easement and has the straightest part 7 of a road there. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you feel that we should 9 leave the easements as narrow as they are and not try to 10 improve county roads? 11 MR. BOHNERT: I'm saying when you want to make them 12 wider, you should go to the narrowest part and start there. 13 Don't start with the people that already have the greatest 14 easement there. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can require it when someone 16 plats their property, and that's what we did on your road. 17 We required Sunset Ridges to give the County additional 18 right-of-way. 19 MR. BOHNERT: I did not plat that property. I did 20 not have to plat the property. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sunset Ridges platted. That's 22 where the easement got wider. That's where the easement went 23 to 60 feet. 24 MR. BOHNERT: I do not have to make my road 60 feet 25 because of that subdivision going in. If I would have to, 7-14-08 24 1 then why doesn't Douglas Koennecke or anyone else? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You don't. 3 MR. BOHNERT: When the subdivision went in, they 4 got a 60-feet-wide road there on Harmony Lane. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Bohnert -- 6 MR. BOHNERT: And it's 30 feet going there. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Bohnert, you mentioned about a 9 fence being offset 10 foot. Was that in the area where you 10 reserved an additional 10-foot easement outside of the county 11 right-of-way? 12 MR. BOHNERT: That was my own. It was not an 13 additional 10 feet. I was advised by Road and Bridge 14 Department to make that a 60-foot wide easement. All I 15 wanted to do was to reserve an easement for myself, that I 16 could be guaranteed access to my property back in the back. 17 That's all I was wanting to do. And there -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: You and -- I just want to be clear 19 about this. 20 MR. BOHNERT: Yes. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: When you -- when you sold off that 22 property in the area that we're talking about -- let's talk 23 about the Williamsons, for example. 24 MR. BOHNERT: Yes. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe that's the one you were 7-14-08 25 1 referring to. It was already burdened by an easement to Kerr 2 County, correct? 3 MR. BOHNERT: No, sir -- 40 feet, yes. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. But outside of that 40 feet, 5 on the Williamson side of the road, you reserved unto 6 yourself individually -- 7 MR. BOHNERT: Yes. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: -- an additional 10 feet. 9 MR. BOHNERT: It was 20 feet, sir. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, 20 feet on the Williamson 11 side, or 10 on the Williamson and 10 on the other side? 12 MR. BOHNERT: 20 feet on the Williamson -- it was 13 60 feet wide across that road. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So you reserved, in addition 15 to the -- in your conveyance to Williamson, you reserved an 16 additional 20 feet outside of the County's right-of-way when 17 you conveyed to Williamson? 18 MR. BOHNERT: Right. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: And that reservation, according to 20 what you just indicated to me, I believe, was for access 21 purposes? 22 MR. BOHNERT: If so necessary. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, if it was or wasn't, it was 24 still for access purposes, wasn't it? 25 MR. BOHNERT: Well, yeah, you could say that, I 7-14-08 26 1 guess. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 3 MR. BOHNERT: But that was under the direction of 4 Road and Bridge Department. I didn't want 60 feet. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Did it -- well, you reserved it to 6 yourself. You didn't reserve it to the County, did you? 7 MR. BOHNERT: No, I didn't reserve it to anyone. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 MR. BOHNERT: It was a private easement. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And in connection with that 11 conveyance, you did not plat that property either, as I 12 recall. 13 MR. BOHNERT: That is correct. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 15 MR. BOHNERT: Road and Bridge Department told me I 16 didn't have to. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's talk about -- you mentioned 18 something about Tierra Linda not being fenced, their roadways 19 not being lane fenced. Did it occur to you that those 20 roadways are not even public roadways, but are rather private 21 roadways within that subdivision? 22 MR. BOHNERT: Well, they're talking about not being 23 able to have open range. That's the statement I'm referring 24 to there. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, my point to you, sir, is it 7-14-08 27 1 really applicable when you're talking about cattle guards on 2 county or public roadways, and using, as an example, private 3 roadways over which the County has no control? 4 MR. BOHNERT: I don't know if all of those roads 5 are public. Isn't that main road going in there a state 6 road? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Trust me, they are. They are 8 private. They have been since the inception in about 1971. 9 MR. BOHNERT: All right. And I know those are 10 private roads in Falling Waters and in The Reserve. But they 11 still have to build those roads to meet county specs. Any 12 time you do a development, it has to be done to meet county 13 specs. That's what I was told. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: At the time platting occurs. 15 MR. BOHNERT: And that's what this book says. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That's at the time platting a 17 property occurs. That's what triggered that requirement -- 18 the requirements in the subdivision rules. 19 MR. BOHNERT: And the reasoning I was told about 20 that is that road does not have to remain private. They can 21 turn that over to the County anytime they so desire. That's 22 why it's supposed to meet county specs, if the County will 23 approve it. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. That's essentially correct. 25 MR. BOHNERT: And the County will take it over. 7-14-08 28 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Roads in Falling Water were 2 built under -- currently, Falling Water's roads could not be 3 turned over, 'cause they don't meet county specs right now. 4 They were built under a prior set of rules. The Reserve does 5 meet county specs. That's those two subdivisions. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then, even so, it's a 8 determination. On The Reserve, those roads are now -- I 9 don't know, five years old. That means they're not up to 10 county specs, so they have to be brought up to current county 11 specs, resurfaced; then they would be accepted. That's the 12 County's policy on accepting roads. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mr. Bohnert, for my part of 14 this thing, I think we're getting off the agenda item a 15 little bit. We're talking about cattle guards, and it only 16 makes sense to me, from having the experience that I've had 17 in the past, once you have a lane -- or you have a roadway 18 lane with fences on both sides, cattle guards become 19 irrelevant and unnecessary. 20 MR. BOHNERT: That's correct. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Until that occurs, the cattle 22 guards need to remain. If they're a safety issue, we need to 23 upgrade them. And I don't believe that any of us on this 24 Court want to try to force people to fence their property on 25 both sides of a road just so that livestock can be taken away 7-14-08 29 1 from the roadway. Now, we do have other roadways in the -- 2 in this county and other counties that are not county roads 3 that have cattle guards; they're state highways, and put 4 these livestock up. But that's even fine with me, but in my 5 mind, I would never ask an owner to spend money to fence 6 property just so we can take a cattle guard out. That makes 7 no sense. That's too expensive. Makes no sense at all. But 8 over a course of time, when we have people coming in buying 9 property, in their mind, a lot of them, especially new ones, 10 use a fence for security to keep people from accessing their 11 property from county roads and things and driving around. 12 But until that fence occurs, I would not be in favor of 13 pulling cattle guards out and trying to force land owners to 14 fence. That's wrong. 15 MR. BOHNERT: I understand. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's all I got to say about 17 it. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with Commissioner 19 Oehler on that. That's exactly where I am on the issue. 20 MR. BOHNERT: Well, that, and those cattle guards 21 were being used. I had to round up my cattle. The cattle 22 guards were taken up; my cattle were out there. I had to 23 round up my cattle and put them in another pasture, and I had 24 to start feeding additional feed to my cattle because of 25 that. That's why I am so upset. Because there's other 7-14-08 30 1 cattle guards that have been fenced out, and they have not 2 been removed. This was the starting point with removal of 3 cattle guards, and they were in service at the time. 4 That's -- I have no problem with that. If they're fenced, 5 and cattle cannot get onto the county roads, no problem at 6 all. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Bohnert, let's be truthful 8 on this. Exactly, there was a 950-foot stretch of fence that 9 had not been put in by the Williamsons. I've talked to the 10 Williamsons and said if they want to leave their fence open, 11 the cattle guards can stay. There's other cattle guards. 12 All of the rest of that property is fenced. The Williamsons 13 have fenced all about but 950 feet. Last time I was there, 14 it still was unfenced; I presume it is. And that was their 15 call. It's not your call. You don't own that property. 16 That's the Williamsons' property. 17 MR. BOHNERT: That's correct. I don't own that 18 property there, but have I the -- the cattle lease or the 19 livestock grazing rights on that property. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I've told the Williamsons 21 that if they want to leave those two cattle guards there, 22 they can. The other one's coming out. 23 MR. BOHNERT: Right. And that other one up at the 24 top was on my property. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, sir? 7-14-08 31 1 MR. BOHNERT: No, I guess that's it. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Any member of the Court 3 have anything additional on that? 4 MR. WILLIAMSON: Judge Tinley, can I say something? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: You'll have to come forward, Mr. 6 Williamson. Give us your name and address. 7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yeah. I'm Bryant Williamson; I 8 live at 375 Wilson Creek Road. Buster was talking about the 9 safety of the cattle guards, and I was just wondering, just 10 our cattle guards there at our house, has there ever been a 11 wreck there? Or do you have any idea? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'd have to go back and look. 13 I don't know of one offhand, and it would be a long time. 14 I'd have to check on that. 15 MR. WILLIAMSON: It's been in place since 1947, and 16 it doesn't seem like it's unsafe. My problem is the economic 17 utility of my property. I do have a lease with Richard for 18 running his cows, and I have the cows coming up there and 19 moving them down the road to his other pastures. If you put 20 the cattle guard in -- take it out, excuse me -- and I have 21 my fences set further back than where they're supposed to be 22 for being a lane, I'm losing a good bit of utility of that 23 property. And even if I bring the fence forward, the -- the 24 property itself becomes more of a value to the County than to 25 me. And it seems like if I'm losing the value of that 7-14-08 32 1 property, except for the obligation to pay taxes, I think I 2 should be compensated for that. There's -- if I lose the 3 economic utility. 4 MR. EMERSON: The only comment I want to make, 5 Mr. Williamson, is that under Chapter 143 of the Agricultural 6 Code, it's very specific about, "Thou shalt not graze your 7 livestock on a county road right-of-way." 8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Right. Okay, fine. Fine. I 9 bought that piece of property. We had cattle grazing on the 10 road. Now what you're doing is, you're coming to me saying, 11 "You can't do that." 12 MR. EMERSON: That's a state statute; it's not a 13 county statute. 14 MR. WILLIAMSON: Well, here in 140 -- Subsection 15 143.104 says you can herd along a highway. So, I can move 16 the cattle down the highway, down my road, right? 17 MR. EMERSON: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. I just don't understand the 19 whole purpose of the County being able to take the utility 20 away from my property. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Williamson, if you did not 22 have any fences along your property right there -- 23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- you know, except you have a 25 unique situation. 7-14-08 33 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Your kind of north boundary, 3 the County owns that right -- or half that right-of-way. 4 MR. WILLIAMSON: No. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe we own all of that 6 right-of-way. 7 MR. WILLIAMSON: The whole thing is my property. 8 You have an easement. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On Sunset Ridges, the County -- 10 in Sunset -- 11 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay, let's talk about from the 12 cattle guards south. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm -- I want to talk about the 14 cattle guards north. 15 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm saying we own that 17 property, so there is no right for you to graze cattle on 18 County-owned property, any more than you have a right to take 19 them to the Ag Barn and graze them there. 20 MR. WILLIAMSON: That's correct. But part of the 21 purpose of the cattle guards is as part of my fencing. And 22 the purpose of the fences is to control the cattle, so the 23 cattle will not go to the north; they will go to the south. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. So, if you take down 25 all the fences, if you don't have any fences, if there's no 7-14-08 34 1 fencing on that side, we'll leave those two cattle guards. 2 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think it's a 4 safety -- 5 MR. WILLIAMSON: What it is, my fence is sitting so 6 far back, I've got, like, a half an acre of land that I could 7 graze on it. I'd like to be able to use that. And if we put 8 "Loose Cattle" signs up -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: How far back is your fence sitting? 11 MR. WILLIAMSON: From the center of the road, it's 12 40 feet. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 20 feet for the county 15 right-of-way. 20 feet for the county right-of-way. 16 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yeah. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: And 20 feet for Mr. Bohnert's 18 private easement that he reserved? 19 MR. WILLIAMSON: That easement doesn't exist. It's 20 gone. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm confused, then. He just told me 22 that he reserved that easement -- 23 MR. WILLIAMSON: Wasn't that removed? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- privately to himself. 25 MR. WILLIAMSON: It was removed. 7-14-08 35 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The plot thickens, Judge. 2 MR. WILLIAMSON: What? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm confused. When was that 4 removed? 5 MR. WILLIAMSON: I think two months ago. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. Was there an instrument 7 filed? 8 MR. BOHNERT: My understanding was you're asking me 9 when we sold that property, not what is there now. At the 10 Commissioners Court in March -- 11 MR. WILLIAMSON: March 10th. 12 MR. BOHNERT: -- is when I said that I would remove 13 that easement, when Buster Baldwin says, "Well, we'll put the 14 cattle guards back. You remove your easement. We'll be -- 15 everybody will be happy, and we'll get on down the road." 16 And I've been working on getting that easement removed. I 17 mean, that -- not -- I'm sorry, not the easement. That -- 18 well, yeah, my private easement, on getting that removed. 19 And I've got all of the instruments done, but I have not 20 filed it at the courthouse yet. But it is -- I have the 21 documents on it from the attorney, that all of that has been 22 taken care of. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: How long have you had those 24 documents, Mr. Bohnert? 25 MR. BOHNERT: I just received them about two weeks 7-14-08 36 1 ago. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. The private easement, 20 feet 3 in width, that you mentioned to me a little while ago when we 4 were talking, what do those instruments propose to do with 5 that 20 feet? Where's it going to go? 6 MR. WILLIAMSON: It's retainable to me. 7 MR. BOHNERT: It's the property owner's. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. You're conveying that to 9 Mr. Williamson as it -- insofar as it abuts his property, 10 then? 11 MR. BOHNERT: Right. All that -- all we're doing 12 is going to remove that easement. We have no need for it any 13 more, because the properties there have sold. And our other 14 property, we can access that to our own property. So, if the 15 County wants to do anything with that road and cut us off 16 from going there and having to take a different route to get 17 up there, it's not going to affect us any more. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know that we're trying to do 19 anything. I'm just trying to find out what happened to this 20 private 20-foot easement that you retained. 21 MR. BOHNERT: Those -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: And right now, you haven't done 23 anything? You're just thinking about it? 24 MR. BOHNERT: No, I've got all the -- I have not 25 recorded it yet. I've got the drafts on it. The surveyor 7-14-08 37 1 went ahead and got all of the information, got to it my 2 attorney, and the attorney has got the drafts up, and I've 3 got the draft for each piece of property. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: And you're -- 5 MR. BOHNERT: All I need do is review that and 6 approve it, go to the attorney, and he can file it. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: So, you're telling us now that your 8 intent is to convey that 20-foot easement that you retained 9 to each of the property owners you sold to, under which you 10 retained it, that portion of easement which abuts each of 11 those property owners that purchased from you? 12 MR. BOHNERT: Right. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: And all you have to do is to go sign 14 the documents, and then let them be recorded? 15 MR. BOHNERT: Right. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 17 MR. BOHNERT: I'm not going back on my word, what I 18 told y'all in March. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're -- I mean, I'm 20 agreeing with what Commissioner Oehler said. I think 21 Commissioner Williams said the same thing, and Commissioner 22 Baldwin's earlier statement. I mean, I think we're all in 23 agreement. When cattle guards are no longer needed for 24 service, they need to be removed. If they're needed for 25 service, and there's no fences fencing the lane, they stay. 7-14-08 38 1 It's that simple. 2 MR. WILLIAMSON: Right, okay. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's how -- you know, but -- 4 MR. WILLIAMSON: That's the only thing. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- there's fences on that lane 6 right now, so the fences all need to be removed between the 7 cattle guards, and then they'll stay. 8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. Now, what gives you that 9 right to say -- what if, 50 years from now, I wanted to 10 change something on my property? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We get a county road; we've 12 given you notice now. I mean, I think -- 13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Let me read you one thing out of 14 the Transportation Code. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Rex is there; he can 16 listen if you read more law. 17 MR. WILLIAMSON: It has to do with Section 251 of 18 the Transportation Code, and it deals with third-class roads, 19 which I believe -- Mr. Odom? 20 MR. ODOM: There's no third-class roads. 21 MR. WILLIAMSON: No third-class roads. So this is 22 just considered a lane? 23 MR. ODOM: It's considered a second class, or first 24 class; not much difference between them. 25 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. Well, here it describes a 7-14-08 39 1 third-class road as a road that's less than 40 feet. 2 MR. ODOM: That's correct. 3 MR. WILLIAMSON: And a causeway is considered to be 4 16 feet. 5 MR. ODOM: I don't know about causeway. 6 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. 7 MR. ODOM: Causeway sounds like water to me. 8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Something on the water, right. 9 But what it is, it's just a raised piece of earth that you 10 have a road on top of. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're way off cattle 12 guards. 13 MR. WILLIAMSON: No, we're not, because what I'm 14 getting to -- what I'm getting to is, if you removed the 15 cattle guards, you're removing part of my fence. I have a 16 right to put up a gate. Or I need -- I have a right to 17 replace that fencing. That's the purpose of the six 18 months -- or the intent of the law says you have to give six 19 months notice so that the person who's had the fence removed, 20 you can do something about it. So, if you take out my cattle 21 guard, those cows can still go to the north. What am I 22 supposed to do? Get rid of the cows? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Under closed range under the 24 ag code, what you're required to do now -- 'cause that 25 section is closed range. You have -- as the landowner, 7-14-08 40 1 you're required to fence your animals in. Nobody's required 2 to fence them out. 3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Right. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And the liability part is, 5 since that is closed, if anybody does hit your cows or 6 anything else on that county road, -- 7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Right. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- cattle guards or not, you 9 are totally liable for every bit of damage or injury. 10 MR. WILLIAMSON: I talked to my insurance agent -- 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You're required to fence them 12 in your property. 13 MR. WILLIAMSON: My property goes -- it's already 14 been fenced in, because the cattle guard was part of the 15 fencing. Now I'm supposed to put in another fence so that 16 y'all can do whatever you want to with the road. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just told you, if there's no 18 fencing on that segment of the road, we'll leave the cattle 19 guards in. 20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. I have -- okay. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Your neighbor next to you has 22 fence there too. 23 MR. WILLIAMSON: His -- his fence is set back 24 further than -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's still fencing the lane. 7-14-08 41 1 You're still -- I mean, whether -- 2 MR. WILLIAMSON: So you're saying I can't. You and 3 I talked about this before. I'm still missing the utility of 4 that part of the property that's not fenced correctly, 5 because I was told to fence it in a certain manner. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I used to live on a quarter 7 acre lot, and the government made me put in an aerobic sewer 8 system, and that caused me not to be able to do anything with 9 my property. 10 MR. WILLIAMSON: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I couldn't add a bedroom, 12 couldn't do anything. 13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Because of the way the thing 15 was laid out. It's an absolute -- that's a taking by 16 government. So, I sold the goddern thing, went off did 17 something else. 18 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yeah. Well, that's -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're all happy. 20 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And these Yankees that came 22 down there and bought that house are happy. (Laughter.) 23 MR. WILLIAMSON: So -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're happy? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm happy. 7-14-08 42 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: Well, so I guess I'm supposed to 2 sell my place? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You need to be happy. We 4 want you happy. 5 MR. WILLIAMSON: I can't get -- the whole thing -- 6 I'd like to be happy. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You look happy. 8 MR. WILLIAMSON: But I can't -- the whole thing is, 9 I'm missing part of my property. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Maybe when Mr. Bohnert conveys that 11 to you, you can get it back. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There you go. 13 MR. WILLIAMS: No. Okay. Well, maybe this isn't 14 the right court to talk about this. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Maybe not. 16 MR. WILLIAMSON: It might not be. Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: But just stand by; I think 18 Mr. Bohnert's going to give you the use of that property 19 back. 20 MR. BOHNERT: I'm Richard Bohnert, 200 Weston Road. 21 The thing is, where he was told to put that fence, it's off 22 neither line. It's not on the 40-foot easement line. It's 23 not on the line of the property that we had reserved, the 24 easement that we had. It's in between there, and Road and 25 Bridge Department is the one who came and told him where to 7-14-08 43 1 put his fence when he was wanting to put his fence on the 2 40-foot easement line. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Maybe he shouldn't have listened. 4 MR. BOHNERT: Well, that's exactly right. 5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Well, that's a good point. How do 6 I know what's right? I mean, really. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: It's up to you to check it out to 8 know what your property rights are. 9 MR. WILLIAMSON: Exactly. And it takes a while to 10 do it. I'm getting down to the nitty-gritty of it right now. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: You keep working on it, 12 Mr. Williamson, and maybe you'll get it right. 13 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. But what about y'all? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: What about us? 15 MR. WILLIAMSON: So y'all can just go -- just going 16 to fence in the lanes and take their property. Isn't that 17 adverse possession or something? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We put you on notice. On this 19 agenda, we haven't done anything. We just -- we're trying to 20 develop a county policy is all we're trying to do. 21 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: We're working on cattle guards, and 23 we'll continue to work on this. 24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. I would just like to have 25 my cattle guard stay. 7-14-08 44 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you have no fencing, that's 2 no problem. 3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Along that segment. 5 MR. WILLIAMSON: Along that segment. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You will have to fence them out 7 of the part the County owns, which is -- 8 MR. WILLIAMSON: Why? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sunset Ridges, where the County 10 owns the right-of-way, you're obligated to fence your -- 11 MR. WILLIAMSON: It's private. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- cattle off. 13 MR. WILLIAMSON: To the north part, right? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think you'd put the 15 fence in the middle of the roadway. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We've beat that fence about 17 as far as we're going to beat it. 18 MR. BOHNERT: I've got two questions that have came 19 up now. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Are they the same questions you 21 asked earlier? 22 MR. BOHNERT: Well, I didn't get an answer on it. 23 I wanted to know where cattle guards are going to stay, are 24 they going to be put in properly? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Did you get a notice from -- from -- 7-14-08 45 1 MR. BOHNERT: No, I have not. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: -- Road and Bridge about the removal 3 of those cattle guards? 4 MR. WILLIAMSON: I did know. 5 MR. BOHNERT: No, sir, I have not. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. When's the last time you 7 checked your mail, Mr. Bohnert? 8 MR. BOHNERT: Saturday. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They were mailed on the 11th, I 10 believe. They may not -- 11 MR. BOHNERT: Friday or Saturday. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They were mailed on the 11th of 13 July, I believe. 14 MR. BOHNERT: And another thing is, if we have to 15 give up our right-of-way and cannot graze on there, how about 16 the rest of the people in the county that are grazing on that 17 county road? That is a right-of-way, and they are allowed to 18 graze on that road, but we're not supposed to. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Bohnert, what I'm hearing from 20 you is that you're willing to comply with the law once you're 21 assured that everybody else similarly affected in the entire 22 county has already been required to comply with the law, and 23 you get to be last. 24 MR. BOHNERT: No, sir. I think -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I'm hearing. I'm sorry. 7-14-08 46 1 MR. BOHNERT: Well, if that's what you're hearing, 2 then you're not hearing what I'm saying. What I am hearing 3 from the Court is that I am the only one that has to follow 4 this set of rules in all of Kerr County. Mr. Williamson just 5 said earlier that it's not going to affect anyone out in that 6 area where Fall Creek Road is, or Fall -- whatever that is. 7 Other people are not having to follow that. It's just going 8 to affect us on Wilson Creek Road. That's what I'm trying to 9 say. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Bohnert? Mr. Bohnert? We are 11 in the process of developing a policy on cattle guards, and 12 once that policy is developed and approved by the Court, it 13 will then be implemented and executed with respect to all 14 cattle guards in the county. And where it will start and 15 where it will end, I can't give you that information, because 16 we don't have the policy yet, but we're working on it. 17 MR. BOHNERT: Thank you. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 19 MR. WILLIAMSON: One thing. So, we received our 20 letter that you're going to pull our cattle guards out within 21 six months, without even having the policy set. I mean, our 22 the cattle guards -- my cattle guard doesn't pose any hazard 23 that I know of. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have to give six months 25 notice. 7-14-08 47 1 MR. WILLIAMSON: I know. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't mean it's coming out. 3 MR. WILLIAMSON: Right, exactly. Okay. So, we can 4 still be in contention -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Six months notice of 6 intent. 7 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. Thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That's why they were put back in. 9 MR. WILLIAMSON: Okay. Thank you. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 2, if we might; 11 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to amend 12 variance given on proposed plat for Live Springs Ranch under 13 Court Order 30856. Commissioner Oehler? 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The information I have 15 received recently tells me that there is not going to be a 16 replat done. There's no need for a variance; that we just 17 need to rescind the court order on the variance. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that a motion? 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It is a motion. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 22 indicated. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And the Court -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: To rescind Court Order Number 30856. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes, sir. 7-14-08 48 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Question or discussion on the 2 motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your 3 right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's move 8 to Item 3; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 9 regarding a resolution signed in support of Hill Country 10 County Coalition, Court Order Number 30877. Commissioner 11 Oehler? 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think we've all taken some 13 -- some abuse over joining the County Coalition by 14 resolution, and I think there's a big misunderstanding in the 15 community of what we're trying to accomplish by being part of 16 the County Coalition, which is nothing more really than a 17 round-table discussion, trying to maybe solve problems and 18 air concerns amongst county leaders and officials, trying to 19 come up with solutions or resolutions to problems that may 20 occur sometime in the future. There has been some feeling in 21 the community that -- that this Hill Country Coalition is the 22 same thing as the County Coalition, and it is not. And I 23 don't know -- we have not gotten the Times, I believe, to do 24 much of a reporting job on that issue, but we are getting the 25 letters to the editor that are trying to accuse the County of 7-14-08 49 1 taking all kinds of rights away from our constituents and 2 wanting to be kind of dictators, I believe, and that's not 3 the issue. I don't want us to be perceived as being in -- 4 being, basically, in bed with this Hill Country Coalition -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hill Country Alliance. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Hill Country Alliance, I'm 7 sorry. I've got my terminology mixed up. I do not want them 8 to be able to use the County Coalition as a springboard to 9 get what they want done through the Legislature. It's -- I 10 don't believe it's -- I don't believe any of us support a lot 11 of what they believe in and what they are promoting, and I 12 just want to try to make it clear from my perspective that -- 13 that these discussions that are taking place county to 14 county, they're nothing more than that. And that every 15 individual county who would like to see legislation passed, 16 for whatever reason they need it, would be doing that on 17 their own. They would not be -- the whole coalition would 18 not -- or the County Coalition would not basically all stand 19 up and say, "Yeah, we want that, and we want it for us too," 20 because there are different needs in different counties, and 21 for different reasons. And I just -- I really am concerned 22 that -- that this Hill Country Alliance may try to use us to 23 push forward their ideas and ideals for future legislation. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me -- let me interject 7-14-08 50 1 something, excuse me. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: It occurs to me, Commissioner 4 Oehler, that there have been some individuals or 5 organizations that have used some assertive -- or alleged 6 collaboration or connection with this so-called Hill Country 7 Alliance, painting it as an ultra-liberal rights-grabbing 8 organization by asserting it is connected, when, in truth and 9 in fact, it's not connected at all. And, therefore, that any 10 effort that this Hill Country Coalition of Counties would 11 take is destined to be whatever the agenda of that asserted 12 ultra-liberal rights-grabbing organization is. All we've got 13 out there is a single resolution, and the devil's in the 14 details. When legislation is introduced in Austin before the 15 Legislature, we will carefully analyze that legislation, and 16 to the extent that we feel it is appropriate for Kerr County, 17 the needs of Kerr County and its citizens, we will support 18 that legislation. If we deem it not to be, we will voice our 19 opposition against it. And what we want may be vastly 20 different from what, say, Comal County or Hays County wants, 21 and those -- those areas within what they calm MSA's, 22 metropolitan service areas. They're carried differently, 23 anyway, because of their proximity to -- to major 24 metropolitan areas. And there traditionally, in the last 25 couple of decades, at least, has been legislation which 7-14-08 51 1 focuses solely on those particular counties. They don't 2 affect us. 3 What I want everyone to understand is the meat and 4 potatoes of the resolution. This is all this Court has done, 5 is passed a resolution, and the operative words of the 6 resolution are, Now, therefore, be it resolved that the 7 Commissioners Court of Kerr County supports -- excuse me -- 8 the mission of the Hill Country County Coalition to, quote, 9 "endorse, pursue, and use current and future legislative 10 authority in order to diversify our availability of revenue 11 resources, to protect our budget from state and federal 12 unfunded and/or under-funded mandates, and to protect our 13 quality of life, public safety, natural resources, and 14 economic future," unquote. Now, if there's anybody in this 15 audience that can legitimately take issue with those goals, I 16 would appreciate them stepping forward and telling us about 17 why they object to that particular operative language. 18 'Cause I think, insofar as objective goals, it very clearly 19 states what's in the best interests of this county and its 20 citizens. But that's all we've done in the way of official 21 action by this Court. Beyond that, there have been 22 discussions among county officials. So, I don't know what 23 the hubbub is all about. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't either. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just a little bit of an update. 7-14-08 52 1 I think the hubbub probably started by a local organization. 2 The president of that organization, Justin McDonald, wrote 3 the first letter to the editor, and Heinz is here as 4 executive director of the home -- Hill Country Home Builders 5 Association. Last Thursday, -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thursday. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- Commissioner Williams and I 8 met with Heinz, Justin McDonald, and Granger McDonald, and 9 actually, I think all five of us are optimistic that we're 10 going to come up with proposed changes in the law that will 11 be supported both by the -- certainly, the Hill Country Home 12 Builders Association and us two Commissioners, and probably 13 the whole Court. It -- you know, I think everything the 14 Judge and Bruce said is accurate. It was unfortunate we got 15 painted with this broad brush. I don't know how it happened, 16 but that's neither here nor there. And I think that a lot of 17 good can come from the counties speaking together, because, 18 clearly, the Legislature have told us that if we can come up 19 with something that more than one county wants, that 15 20 counties want, it's a good chance they're going to get 21 support for it. And if we can get the home builders to 22 support it, both locally and statewide, there's a real good 23 chance something will happen. The current subdivision 24 rules -- anyone that's read all of Chapter 232 knows it's a 25 horrible piece of legislation the way it's currently written. 7-14-08 53 1 It's confusing. It doesn't make a lot of sense. There's all 2 kinds of exemptions, and the biggest thing we're trying to do 3 is simplify and clarify the state law. And there are a few 4 things we'd like to add, and if we can do that, you know, 5 it'd be great; it would be good for the state. And that's 6 just where we are right now. And I'm sure we'll -- if 7 there's ever -- if we ever, either locally or Hill Country 8 County Coalition, agree on something that we really want to 9 pursue, it will be before the Court and we'll hash it out at 10 that time. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Our focus is Kerr County, 12 and we -- in our discussions with the home builders 13 association, we understand clearly that their concern has to 14 do with the magnitude that might slop over statewide and be 15 detrimental. We clearly understand that, but I believe as a 16 result of these discussions, they understand our focus is 17 Kerr County. There may be things that are beneficial for 18 Kerr County out of this coalition that other hill country 19 counties can likewise benefit from. And we also understand 20 the home builders need to have stopgaps so that if we go 21 about tweaking 232, that we do not let this get out of hand. 22 So, if we all understand that our focus is Kerr County, and 23 not statewide and not Hays County or Comal County or any 24 other I-35 corridor county, then I think we have a better 25 understanding, as the Judge quoted, of what it's all about. 7-14-08 54 1 And I -- I appreciate the fact that we have had this 2 opportunity, on more than one occasion, to meet with Hill 3 Country Home Builders and representatives of the state home 4 builders association, and kind of clear the air. Because, as 5 the Judge has said, what takes place within the framework of 6 the Hill Country Alliance is not what's taking place within 7 the framework of the Coalition of Counties, which are hill 8 country counties. We understand their agenda. Their agenda 9 doesn't drive us. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've been attending these 11 kind of meetings for years and years, and with liberal 12 counties, and when they start talking about regulating people 13 cutting cedar off their own property, or putting meters on a 14 private pump, those kinds of things, I get up and leave the 15 table. Simple as that. Don't have anything to do with it. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's where it's at. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's all I know. I just 18 wanted to make sure it got clarified. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you for putting it on. 20 Maybe we can get some press. Maybe not. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me extend my offer again. 22 Anybody that wants to take issue with any of those operative 23 words of that resolution, tell us -- tell us why they do so. 24 Let's move to Item 7, if we might. Consider, discuss, and 25 take appropriate action to adopt a resolution honoring the 7-14-08 55 1 lives of Ross and Clarabelle Snodgrass and their service to 2 the people of Kerr County on the occasion of their 75th 3 wedding anniversary. Commissioner Williams. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. It's 5 been my privilege and pleasure to be a part of the 75th 6 wedding anniversary celebration of Ross and Clarabelle 7 Snodgrass, and we do -- we have a resolution that's been 8 prepared. It was read originally at the celebration on the 9 6th of July, I believe, at the Elks Club Lodge, which I guess 10 100 or 150 of Clarabelle's closest -- and Ross' closest 11 friends assembled, and today I think it's appropriate that we 12 honor them in Commissioners Court and read into the record a 13 resolution honoring their life and service, and if the Court 14 will indulge me, I will do that. This is a resolution of 15 Kerr County Commissioners Court honoring the life and service 16 of Clarabelle and Ross Snodgrass. Hang back, guys; it's 17 going to take a couple minutes to get through this. 18 Whereas, Clarabelle Barton, a fifth generation 19 native of Kerr County, and Ross Snodgrass, celebrating their 20 75th wedding anniversary, are the oldest couple native to the 21 area living in Kerr County; and whereas, Clarabelle, age 94, 22 was raised in the Turtle Creek community, and Ross, age 105, 23 was born and grew up in the Divide community. As a teenager, 24 Clarabelle and friends visited the community theatre building 25 in Comfort, which had a dance floor, motion picture screen, 7-14-08 56 1 and a basketball court. It was there she met Ross, who came 2 with his brother and friends for the express purpose of 3 meeting young ladies. (Laughter.) 4 And whereas, soon a courtship began, and they 5 married July 1, 1933. Three days later, on July 4, Ross rode 6 his racehorse Joker to victory at the Rock Springs Rodeo. I 7 can only imagine that Clarabelle was in the stands cheering 8 for that horse to cross the finish line first. Dancing 9 became a large part of their lives, and Ross didn't stop 10 dancing until turning 103. They still belong to the German 11 Dance Club, the oldest social organization in Kerr County. 12 Ross was a drover on the last cattle drive from the Divide to 13 the railhead in Kerrville. Whereas, Clarabelle and Ross 14 settled on the Divide on the T and Lazy T Ranch, had two 15 children, Jeri and David, raised sheep, goats, cattle and 16 horses. Clarabelle and her children lived in Kerrville 17 during their school years. Ross retired from ranching in 18 1968, and they settled in Kerrville. Ross was honored for 19 his 80 years of membership in the Masonic Lodge of Texas. 20 Whereas, Clarabelle has been the driving force for the 21 preservation of Kerr County history since her initial 22 involvement as historian for the Divide community, and her 23 tireless efforts continue until present. Ross served as her 24 willing chauffeur until he passed 90 years of age. 25 And whereas, in 1977, Clarabelle was appointed to 7-14-08 57 1 the Kerr County Historical Commission, and continues her 2 service to this date, having dedicated 20 Kerr County 3 historical markers and worked for the approval of many 4 others. And whereas, Clarabelle spent untold hours between 5 1979 and 1984 as a leader of the Old Tivy Restoration 6 Committee, was honored in 1982 and again in 1984 with special 7 historic preservation awards by the Texas Historical 8 Commission for her Tivy restoration efforts. She was named 9 Kerr County's outstanding citizen of the year in 1986. And 10 whereas, Clarabelle has received numerous "Woman of the Year" 11 awards from local organizations, and the American Legion, in 12 presenting an award, cited her as the individual -- quote, as 13 the individual who contributed most in the area to the Kerr 14 County Historical Commission, unquote. And the Sons of 15 Hermann Lodge honored her for humanitarian deeds and 16 outstanding service. And whereas, in 1956, Clarabelle served 17 on the committee planning the celebration of Kerr County's 18 100th anniversary, and in 1976, she produced a 19 well-remembered historical pageant in Antler Stadium 20 celebrating the nation's bicentennial, and in 1986 she was 21 vice chairman of Kerr County's celebration of the Texas 22 Sesquicentennial, including the compilation of the now scarce 23 Kerr County Album, and in 2006 she worked with the committee 24 in planning the Kerr County Sesquicentennial celebration. 25 She and Ross were named grand marshals of the parade. 7-14-08 58 1 And whereas, Clarabelle and Ross have lived through 2 depression, floods, droughts, deaths, and other tribulations 3 with faith and hope for 75 years, and through it all, 4 provided music for the pleasure of countless Kerr County 5 residents. Now, therefore, be it resolved that Kerr County 6 Commissioners Court honors and pays tribute to Ross and 7 Clarabelle Snodgrass for their years of unselfish service to 8 the citizens of Kerr County; and be it further resolved that 9 this resolution was read to Clarabelle and Ross on the 10 occasion of their 75th wedding anniversary celebration at 11 Elks Hall, Kerrville, Texas, on July 6th, 2008, and presented 12 to them in Kerr County Commissioners Court, after formal 13 adoption of this resolution, on July 14th, 2008. Judge, I 14 move the approval of the resolution. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second for 17 approval of the resolution. All in favor, signify by raising 18 your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 (Applause.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Unanimously carried. Ross and 24 Clarabelle Snodgrass, it's my privilege to present to you the 25 original of this resolution as read into the record. Thank 7-14-08 59 1 you so much -- 2 MS. SNODGRASS: Thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: -- for all both of you have done for 4 Kerr County. 5 MR. SNODGRASS: Thank you. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you so much. 7 (Applause.) 8 MS. SNODGRASS: I've been through six centennials, 9 '46, '56, '76, '86, '89, and 2006. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Great. Thank you so much for all 11 you've done. 12 MS. SNODGRASS: Thank you. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to Item 4 on the agenda, 15 if we might. Consider, discuss, and approve the appointment 16 of election judges and alternates for the term of one year in 17 accordance with Texas Election Code, Section 32. Ms. Alford? 18 MS. ALFORD: Good morning. We do this every year. 19 We get a list from the Republican people and the Democrat 20 people to appoint alternate -- judges and alternate judges 21 for one term. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval of the list as 23 presented. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 7-14-08 60 1 approval of the list as presented. Question or discussion on 2 the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 3 your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll go to 8 Item 5; consider and discuss approving of the polling 9 locations in accordance with Chapter 43 of the Texas Election 10 Code. 11 MS. ALFORD: These are the polling places for the 12 November 4th, 2008 general election. We need to change 13 Trinity Baptist in Precinct 119 -- they no longer want to be 14 a polling place -- to Foursquare Gospel Fellowship on 915 15 Bluebell. And we will be changing early voting to the 16 Cailloux Center, because the Ag Barn is booked for that -- 17 those two weeks. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 21 approval as presented. Question or discussion? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Trinity Baptist served us 23 for many years, and we appreciate that very much. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Further question or discussion? All 25 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 7-14-08 61 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 5 MS. ALFORD: Thank you. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll move to Item 6; consider, 7 discuss, and take appropriate action to obtain required 8 recertification by Texas Juvenile Probation Commission for 9 Kevin Stanton as Juvenile Detention/Probation Officer and 10 allow County Judge to authorize request for recertification. 11 I put this on the agenda. It's an annual requirement that 12 he's required by the Juvenile Probation Commission. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 17 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's move 22 to Item 8, if we might. Consider, discuss, and take 23 appropriate action concerning the Kerr County policy for 24 emergency response on non-maintained roads. Mr. Odom? 25 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. Thank you, Judge. Attached 7-14-08 62 1 is a policy adopted by the Court August the 8th, 2005. We're 2 having a real problem with this policy and the homeowners on 3 Primrose and Tierra Grande and others -- just not those two 4 itself, but those are primarily two that we continue to go 5 back to. During the 2002 flood, we worked on Primrose 6 because it was truly a safety issue. Please note that Number 7 4 on the policy states that we will correct the situation on 8 a one-time basis. However, as you can see from the letters 9 and complaints, we've been called back numerous times, and 10 the homeowners have done nothing to correct the problems they 11 have with the road. Last year during the extended period of 12 rainfall, we worked on several private roads, but the most 13 extensive one was Tierra Grande. We foresee the same 14 problems with this neighborhood as we have with Primrose. 15 These homeowners have made no attempts to correct the 16 problems with their roads, and these calls continue to cost 17 not only us, but the Sheriff's Department lots of time and 18 tax dollars. They're called out to take a look at it, and 19 various times they will tell the people it's not a -- a 20 safety hazard. At this time, we're asking that you firm up 21 the policy in some way that states that we will not return 22 unless the homeowners have made an attempt to help 23 themselves. 24 I do not have a solution. I mean, there's 25 different things that you possibly could do, either charge 7-14-08 63 1 the people -- I think the law says that they are to pay for 2 those deals. But under an emergency, like 2002, that was a 3 federal disaster. Of course, we go in there and do it. But 4 because your tires on your cars, you have the wrong thread 5 and you can't get up or it slips, it should not be an issue. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understood it to be that 7 the Sheriff goes out and investigates and makes the 8 determination whether it's passable or not. 9 MR. ODOM: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: For ambulance, for those 11 services. And if it's impassable, we want to make sure that 12 an ambulance or a police car can get -- a fire truck can get 13 in and out of there, so we fix it one time. That's what I've 14 always understood, and that's what I tell people. And I -- 15 if I'm wrong there, I need to get my verbiage corrected. But 16 we fix it one time so that it's passable. We don't pave and 17 stripe it and curb and gutters and pecan trees and all that, 18 but we make it passable one time. Is that incorrect? 19 MR. ODOM: That is not -- well, theoretically, 20 you're correct. But if the Sheriff's Department calls us and 21 says that Primrose is non-passable, then it puts him in a 22 precarious position that I have a call; I have to go do it. 23 My interpretation of "one time" is one time. You go out, and 24 there's an emergency; you take care of it. We have done 25 that. And -- and yet, when they're in pretty good shape, if 7-14-08 64 1 they did a sealcoat -- part of Primrose is done, the top 2 maybe 300 feet, 200 feet. And the reason, because it's dust, 3 is my understanding from years ago. But you've got several 4 hills, and if I get a call and the Sheriff's Department calls 5 us, Buster, I -- I don't delineate that one time, other than 6 they say it's impassable; we go out there. And -- and then 7 you let it rain or you let L.C.R.A. go through there and beat 8 it up, up those hills, and then they call the Sheriff's 9 Department. They call us. We go out. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: When I read that, I mean, I 11 hinge more off of up in the title part. I mean, it says 12 potential threat to life and safety exists due to flooding or 13 other current natural disasters. It doesn't mean if a road 14 gets in bad shape over time, we got to go fix it. It's only 15 after a natural disaster. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A hard rain that washes 17 things out. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We get a flood and a road's 19 washed out, I think we're obligated to fix it one time to 20 make it passable, and that's it. 21 MR. ODOM: So, you're saying if it's not a natural 22 disaster, we shouldn't do it? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It doesn't have to be a -- 24 yeah, natural disaster. Doesn't have to be a declaration by 25 the governor and all this stuff. But I think if we have a 7-14-08 65 1 flood that washes out a road, I don't have a problem with 2 fixing it on a one-time -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about the next flood? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the next flood -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And Rusty goes out there and 6 says, "This thing's impassable, and an ambulance cannot get 7 in and out of here." 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At the next flood, I don't have 9 a problem. 10 MR. ODOM: What happens if it's several times in a 11 year? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the fact of the 13 matter is, you're concerned with public safety, and if you 14 can't get a fire vehicle in there, you can't get an emergency 15 vehicle in there or an ambulance in there because you've had 16 repeated floods every year or every other year, I frankly 17 don't have any problem with that. I'm concerned with public 18 safety, getting a vehicle in to rescue people or take them to 19 the hospital or do what's necessary to do, or law 20 enforcement. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But I also have an issue -- 22 and I agree totally with Len. I think some of these are 23 getting a little bit out of control, 'cause officers are 24 going out there week -- last week we had just a little bit of 25 rain. Portions of Primrose became impassable, okay? We had 7-14-08 66 1 calls out there and had to get -- had to handle them over the 2 phone, because our officers couldn't get up it. That's in 3 our car. Primrose is that bad, okay? Just over the last 4 week. But that is not a county road. And I'm like Len. Do 5 we call every single time it becomes impassable, and the 6 County has to go out there, or do we finally say, "Sorry, we 7 can't make that location"? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think that's a -- that's 9 an Attorney General question, or Rex. 10 MR. ODOM: May I elaborate a little bit on that, 11 Commissioner Williams? Last year, we had about five to seven 12 different private roads. And if you remember, I came to the 13 Court and said I need till the middle of November so I can 14 spend my preventive maintenance money, because I took all 15 this time and a lot of resources to do these things, and to 16 do it right, so they could get up and down and we could make 17 it right. Other than just halfway do it, try to fix it 18 decent. I was over there next budget year trying to get it. 19 Already I'm behind on that. I'm already out of money; that's 20 another issue. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Last year was a unique year. 22 MR. ODOM: It was. But the point is that weather 23 is not going to -- we're going back through a weather cycle 24 1931 through 1963. That's from FEMA. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What do they know? (Laughter.) 7-14-08 67 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Len -- Len, I don't think 2 you want to be standing up there sometime after a flood, or 3 after having taken care of a road -- or not taken care of a 4 road, I don't think you want to be standing up there telling 5 us we -- that an emergency vehicle was unable to get into a 6 place and it burned down, or somebody died because they 7 couldn't get to the hospital. I don't think you want to 8 stand there telling us that. 9 MR. ODOM: I don't think that I'm here doing that. 10 I'm just saying -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree, Bill and Buster. But 12 that's a -- we have a lot of -- I have a lot of people in my 13 precinct, and I've been real adamant, we're not fixing their 14 roads. You can't get a car on some of those roads down there 15 around Oil Well and Snake. I've said, "Form a road 16 district." And, I mean, you know, people have an obligation 17 to -- you know, to look at where they buy property, one, and 18 then to maintain the roads to access it, if they're privately 19 maintained roads, and I don't think it's the County's 20 responsibility. If -- you know, I think that's a real 21 slippery slope if we start saying, "well, an ambulance can't 22 get down that road," 'cause you look at Kerrville Fire 23 Department, they're not going to send their stuff hardly 24 anywhere because it's not made for it. It's not made for 25 off-road terrain. 7-14-08 68 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't misunderstand what I 2 said. I don't -- I don't want any policy of Kerr County to 3 be a policy that fixes the problems developers made and 4 didn't take care of when they subdivided the property. 5 That's not my intention at all. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I think -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's very narrow, having to 8 do with public safety. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I think you're in a danged if you 10 do, danged if you don't situation. If -- if, every time 11 there's adverse weather conditions, and maybe the -- the 12 roadway, because of just a slight rain, becomes slick because 13 of the -- the amount of grade, and without a four-wheel drive 14 or some sort of tracked vehicle or something of that nature, 15 you can't get in and out. I don't classify that as a natural 16 disaster. But if, every time that condition exists, 17 Leonard's required to go out there because the folks who have 18 the most interest and concern are just kicking back and 19 saying, "You know, if I do nothing, the County's going to 20 save me." Even though the County's got no obligation. On 21 the other hand, if we go out there every single time, the 22 impression is going to be gained that this is a, quote, 23 county-maintained road. In fact, that impression already 24 exists out there because of the number of times that Leonard 25 has gone out on an emergency basis, that we've got us a 7-14-08 69 1 county-maintained road, so we don't have to do anything. 2 MR. ODOM: Just call. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: It's the County's problem. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: By prescription. You 5 maintain it on a regular basis. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought that was the 7 reason why we -- in our policy that exists today, that we 8 said we would send a Sheriff's vehicle out there to determine 9 whether or not you can get through. I thought that's the 10 reason why we did that. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- it is, but if it's a 12 road like they're talking about Primrose, that is in such bad 13 shape on a continuous basis, that every time the Sheriff 14 can't get up the road, does that mean -- because that road's 15 so bad, you know, it's going to be county-maintained? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I'm not saying that. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know, but that's what I mean. 18 I'm saying our policy probably needs some adjustments. And 19 Len's right; I think "one-time basis" needs to be defined a 20 little bit more clearly, and I think when it -- the whole 21 policy is implied -- I was always under the impression this 22 was after a major flood, you know. And it's hard to define 23 that, 'cause, I mean, a major flood is -- you know, can be 24 one thing in one part of the county, one road versus another 25 road. 7-14-08 70 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, 2002 is a pretty good 2 example. We had rain for two solid weeks, maybe close to 3 three, and there were a lot of roads like Primrose. I had 4 some in my -- Tierra Grande is one of them, where they just 5 became absolutely impassable. But that's an extreme. We 6 don't get rain for three weeks at a time very often. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But there's lot of -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: At some point in time, people 9 have to take responsibility for where they live and fix their 10 roads if they want to get in and out. If an emergency 11 occurs, that's one thing, but to just have it that way all 12 the time, and then expect the County to fix it is just not 13 right. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's lots -- I mean, gosh, 15 how many people -- 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I fix my road if I want to 17 get in and out. It's a private road. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I do mine. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, I don't -- I don't 20 feel like the County's obligated to come in there and get me 21 out. If I need to get out, the helicopter needs to come get 22 me. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And there's a lot of -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I subscribe to that service. 25 MR. ODOM: I do too. 7-14-08 71 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's a lot of property where 2 you can't get in and out on -- on county roads after a flood, 3 much less a private road that we're not obligated. I think 4 the -- the county roads are a priority. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we -- what you're saying, 6 if we were mean, which we're not mean, -- 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- you would say something 9 like, "Hey, you bought the property. We didn't buy the 10 property. We didn't cause you to live there. You bought the 11 property knowing that it -- you didn't have a public road in 12 there." Ms. Carey's here, if y'all wanted to -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: She's written numerous 15 letters through the years, and -- 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They're good, hard-working 17 people. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good, hard-working people. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Carey? Come forward and give us 20 your name and address, please. 21 MS. CAREY: Thank you. I'm Kim Carey that has 22 written many letters. And I'm also a Yankee, Mr. Baldwin, so 23 I apologize for that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't apologize. We all 25 have to be somewhere. 7-14-08 72 1 MS. CAREY: That's right. And I prefer to be in 2 Texas and Kerr County. We moved here in 2004. We bought a 3 place -- I'm sorry, moved here in 2003. And we rented a 4 place for a while, and then we bought a place at the bottom 5 of Primrose Lane. And at the time we bought it, the road was 6 not horrible, so we assumed that it would remain not 7 horrible, but over the years it has gotten increasingly 8 worse. There were not only rains in 2002, but if you 9 remember, last year we had torrential rains for quite some 10 time, and a tropical depression that came through and washed 11 out the road considerably. We did have a man die of a heart 12 attack -- was that last summer, Michelle? -- okay, die of a 13 heart attack. It took the ambulance about 45 to 50 minutes 14 just to reach us because the road was so bad. I'm a retired 15 nurse. I felt that there wasn't a chance of resuscitation, 16 fortunately for EMS; otherwise, it could have been a really, 17 really difficult situation. 18 Mr. Odom? Is this -- okay. You need to stand 19 corrected, sir. As far as the people that have put money out 20 of their own wallets, out of their own pockets, Mr. Sirianni, 21 Mr. Kermit, who is now deceased, Mr. Guzardo, Bernie Simmons, 22 and Benny Whitaker have all dedicated their time and their 23 money to renting equipment, using their own equipment, using 24 their own funds and trying to improve the road inasmuch as 25 they can with the equipment that we have. We don't have 7-14-08 73 1 graders. We are a working class population. We are not -- 2 you're not going to drive down Primrose Lane and see a 3 Saddlewood or Horizon setting, or a Las Colinas setting. I 4 could go on and on about the beautiful ranches and 5 subdivisions on the roads that get absolute attention on a 6 regular basis that don't even need it. If you go back in 7 your records, Mr. Odom, I would really love to see how many 8 times you have resurfaced Sheppard Rees Road since 2004 when 9 I moved to Primrose Lane. I would like to see how many times 10 Freedom Trail has been resurfaced. I would like to see what 11 was wrong with Sierra Road and Gabe Road, when you went in 12 and widened it, dug down about 6 to 8 inches and added all of 13 this wonderful material for a road that didn't even need it. 14 We are residents of a working class community. There are 15 elderly and disabled people that live down there. We have 16 the right to county maintenance because we are citizens of 17 this county. We pay taxes in this county. And any other 18 road that's in bad condition. Maybe it is the result of a 19 poor developer or whatever happened 30 years ago. You're all 20 talking about change. You're all talking about ripping out 21 cattle guards for public safety and doing all these things 22 because change is coming. Well, change is coming on Primrose 23 Lane also, and we need the County's help. We can't afford to 24 do it on our own. We just can't. Bernie's mother-in-law 25 paid out of her pocket -- how much did that cost? 7-14-08 74 1 MR. SIMMONS: 46. 2 MS. CAREY: $4,600 for 400 feet of pavement. We're 3 just asking for maybe every six weeks, to have the County 4 come out and keep those hills graded, put some road base on 5 it. We're not even asking for pavement. We just want to be 6 able to get in and out. It's a 2-mile stretch of road. It 7 is horrible. It is absolutely horrible. It's dangerous. 8 Michelle's mother went off the road. She's not a young 9 woman, and she went off the road. Her car slipped when she 10 was going up that hill. Fortunately, she wasn't hurt. 11 Marty's not here today -- Marty Benson. He went off the 12 road. His whole truck went off. It was in the shop for over 13 a week. We haven't had any fatal or serious injuries because 14 of this, but we have had some accidents, and one of these 15 days the accident is going to be fatal, and then all of you 16 that sit back here and say, "You should fix your own road" -- 17 well, hey, we can't. We are -- my husband and I are 18 woodworkers. Trust me when I tell you we don't make a big 19 living. I live in an 800-square-foot cabin, and I'm 20 deliriously happy here, but I feel that the County needs to 21 step up to the plate, not only for the wealthy, but for the 22 people that are working class, the people that are disabled, 23 and for the elderly. We need your help. We can't do it on 24 our own. We don't have any recourse. We don't have any 25 special funds or -- we're just -- we're just a small 7-14-08 75 1 community of people that need your help. And I thank you for 2 hearing me out. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Couple comments. You do not 4 have a right to have the County fix private property. 5 MS. CAREY: Why not? Why don't I have that right? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because state law prohibits it. 7 MS. CAREY: State law prohibits that? I can't feel 8 that I have a right? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can -- you may think you 10 have the right, but you don't have that right. 11 MS. CAREY: Well, I feel -- I don't think I said I 12 have -- maybe I did say it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You did say it. 14 MS. CAREY: I feel like -- let me stand corrected. 15 I feel I have the right, okay? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- 17 MS. CAREY: I am a citizen. You work for me. You 18 are government officials. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the state law says we don't 20 have the right to do that, what you're asking us to do. 21 MS. CAREY: Aren't you here to mend things or to 22 propose things? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We follow state law. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We don't make state law; we 25 follow it. 7-14-08 76 1 MS. CAREY: I understand that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't have the ability to 3 send the county Road and Bridge Department onto private 4 property. 5 MS. CAREY: What I heard -- first of all, L.C.R.A. 6 clearly stated to me -- they're taking most of my property, 7 by the way, for the power lines. That's okay. It's part of 8 progress; it's part of change. I'm not happy about it, but 9 it's got to happen. We are one of those people that moved to 10 this area for a better life. So there's other people that 11 want to move here. I've seen letters to the editor lately 12 that people are mad because they moved here and they don't 13 want to change Kerrville. Well, I'm sure the people before 14 them didn't want the changes either, but we have to move 15 forward. Okay? My argument is, I'm listening to this man 16 here state how he resents having to go out there, and I'm 17 sitting there and I'm flabbergasted by that statement. 18 Aren't we all here as a community? Aren't we one? Aren't we 19 supposed to be helping each other, and get things done for 20 the betterment of the community? When you can segregate out 21 and say, "I only want to fix the roads that don't need 22 fixing, because that's easier for us," you can't tell me that 23 it's cheaper to go out there and resurface Sheppard Rees and 24 Bear Creek and Freedom Trail and Sierra and Gabe, and God 25 knows how many other roads that I don't know about, than it 7-14-08 77 1 is to send that grader out a couple times, maybe every six 2 weeks or so, and grade the road for our safety? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ma'am, but you understand -- 4 you are not listening to me. 5 MS. CAREY: I'm sorry. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't have the ability to do 7 it. State law prohibits it. We will all go to jail. 8 MS. CAREY: Why is Primrose listed on the county 9 website as a county-maintained road? 10 AUDIENCE: It's not. 11 MS. CAREY: Oh, yes, it is. Oh, yes. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Carey? 13 MS. CAREY: You go on the website. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Carey, there can be a public 15 road -- 16 MS. CAREY: Mm-hmm. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: There can be a public road which is 18 not county-maintained. We have numerous of them in this 19 county. 20 MS. CAREY: But its says it's maintained on the 21 website, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A portion of it is. 23 MR. ODOM: Primrose? A portion, yes, that's 24 sealcoated. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Very small portion. 7-14-08 78 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 800 feet. 2 MS. CAREY: So, why is 800 feet included? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, because it was -- it was put 4 up to standards, and -- 5 MS. CAREY: But why? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Why? Because whoever put in the 7 cost of that wanted the road maintenance to be assumed by the 8 County, and expended the funds. And presumably the lots that 9 abut that, that cost was rolled into what those people paid 10 for their lot. 11 MS. CAREY: But that's an "allegedly"? We're not 12 sure that that happened? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you know, the -- 14 MS. CAREY: We don't have any facts, right? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: What if a frog had wings? I don't 16 think it -- sit down, please, sir. I don't think he'd bump 17 his tail, but I don't know that as a matter of fact. What 18 I'm trying to explain to you is, it is unlawful for the 19 County to use taxpayer funds to maintain a road that the 20 County is not obligated to maintain. 21 MS. CAREY: So, how do we change that obligation? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Public or otherwise. 23 MS. CAREY: How do we change that obligation? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you get the Legislature to 25 change the state law, which prohibits us from doing that. 7-14-08 79 1 MS. CAREY: How do we get the County to become 2 obligated to assume the maintenance of that road? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Bring the road up to county 4 standards. 5 MS. CAREY: We already went through that. We don't 6 have that kind of money; it's never going to happen. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: You have two ways to do that. You 8 can either bring it up to county standards immediately 9 through some voluntary basis, or you have the ability under 10 state law, the property owners there can form what is known 11 as a road district. I believe that's been suggested to you 12 in prior communications. What that does, it allows the 13 property owners to voluntarily agree, over a period of time, 14 to repay bonds which are sold, the proceeds of which are used 15 to bring the road up to county standards, and then over the 16 period of time that those bonds are outstanding, whoever 17 purchased them, you repay them by a tax or assessment on your 18 property, just like your county taxes, your school taxes and 19 so forth. 20 MS. CAREY: Okay. So, L.C.R.A. is coming in and 21 they're telling us that it is an absolute county road. Now, 22 wouldn't they know? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not necessarily. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a road in the county 7-14-08 80 1 that's dedicated for public use. 2 MS. CAREY: So, how can that be? That seems like 3 an oxymoron to me. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you. That's 6 the way it are. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's state law. 8 MS. CAREY: Okay. We can't -- I don't think that 9 we can push this off on the state, since there is no one here 10 from the state to speak up. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's one sitting right 12 there, with the white shirt on. 13 MS. CAREY: I'm sorry, I don't know him. 14 MR. EMERSON: I'm Rex Emerson, the County Attorney. 15 MS. CAREY: Nice to meet you. I've talked to you 16 on the phone. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's the County Attorney. 18 That makes him an arm of the state of Texas. 19 MS. CAREY: Okay. So, you're saying that it's 20 against the law to help the citizens of this county with 21 their road. 22 MR. EMERSON: No, ma'am. I'm saying it's against 23 the law to expend public funds on a private property issue. 24 MS. CAREY: But I'm hearing from L.C.R.A. that that 25 is a public -- 7-14-08 81 1 MR. EMERSON: I don't know what L.C.R.A. told you. 2 MS. CAREY: They told me it's a county road. 3 MR. EMERSON: What the Judge told you is entirely 4 accurate. They are forbidden by statute from expending 5 public funds to improve a road that is not publicly 6 maintained. 7 MS. CAREY: So, if it's not publicly -- if it's not 8 maintained and it's not a county road, then can we not charge 9 L.C.R.A. for coming down -- do we have to allow public 10 vehicles on that road? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: It is a public road. 12 MS. CAREY: Okay. This is not clear. 13 MR. EMERSON: It's a -- there are two issues, okay? 14 Whether a road's public or whether it's private, that's the 15 first issue. 16 MS. CAREY: All right. 17 MR. EMERSON: This is public, open access to 18 anybody that wants to drive down it. 19 MS. CAREY: Deemed by who? Who deems it public? 20 MR. EMERSON: Well, I could assume it's back in the 21 original subdivision documents, because that's generally 22 where it's declared. 23 MS. CAREY: Okay. 24 MR. EMERSON: Okay? But the second issue is who 25 maintains that road. 7-14-08 82 1 MS. CAREY: Mm-hmm. 2 MR. EMERSON: A road is not automatically 3 maintained by the County just because it's public. It's only 4 maintained by the County if it's accepted for maintenance by 5 the County. 6 MS. CAREY: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. EMERSON: And the County only accepts roads for 8 maintenance by the County that are built to county standards. 9 MS. CAREY: Okay. So, on that note, how do we get 10 you, as the County, to accept the road? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Bring it up to county standards. I 12 just told you. 13 MS. CAREY: I understand that. How do we change 14 that? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You don't. 16 MS. CAREY: Why? Why can't that be changed? 17 Aren't we all about change? Aren't we all about improving 18 Kerr County? How do we do that? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: If you want to change the 20 requirement that the road must be brought to county 21 standards -- 22 MS. CAREY: Yes. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: -- before the County will accept 24 maintenance, -- 25 MS. CAREY: Yes. 7-14-08 83 1 JUDGE TINLEY: -- you'll have to address that to 2 the Texas Legislature. They'll be meeting in January of next 3 year. 4 MS. CAREY: Okay. Why does it have to go through 5 the Legislature? Aren't you the county? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Because the state law says we can 7 not expend public funds on private -- 8 MS. CAREY: Okay. I'm not asking for that law to 9 be changed. I'm asking for you, as the county, to change 10 your rule. That -- 11 AUDIENCE: That isn't a rule; it's a state law. 12 MS. CAREY: No, I'm asking that you, the county, 13 change -- excuse me. If you were up here, I would give you 14 the same consideration of being quiet. I would ask you that. 15 You're saying the State is preventing you from -- from taking 16 care of the road 'cause it's a private road. I'm asking you 17 to assume responsibility by saying it is now a county road. 18 Why can't you change the fact? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: It is a county road. It is a county 20 public road; it is not a county-maintained road. 21 MS. CAREY: Okay. It's a county public road. The 22 state says you can't put improvements on private roads. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: To benefit private owners. 24 MS. CAREY: But you're telling me it's a county 25 public road. 7-14-08 84 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Public access. 2 MS. CAREY: And the difference is? Isn't every 3 public road public access? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your neighbors can have 5 people coming and going all the time. 6 MS. CAREY: Right. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's no gate down at the 8 bottom that prohibits people or vehicles or anybody from 9 entering. 10 MS. CAREY: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay? 12 MS. CAREY: So, it's a county public road. That's 13 what I'm hearing. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Public access. 15 MS. CAREY: What's the difference between public or 16 public access? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Under current law, you have two 18 routes to follow. You can voluntarily bring the road up to 19 county standards and request the Court to assume maintenance. 20 MS. CAREY: Mm-hmm. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Or you can form a road district to 22 do that. 23 MS. CAREY: Okay. But I'm -- you still haven't 24 answered my question. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, I have. 7-14-08 85 1 MS. CAREY: Well, I don't think you have. I'm not 2 satisfied with your answer. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I'm sorry. I'm not going to 4 explain it to you for a fourth time. We have other issues. 5 MS. CAREY: But you didn't answer the public access 6 road, the county public access road. You did not define that 7 to me. It's not defined. All you're saying -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: The public has the roads. 9 MS. CAREY: The road's not paved. It's not going 10 to get county maintenance. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I can explain it to you, but I can't 12 understand it for you. 13 MS. CAREY: I'm pretty good at understanding. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: It is a public access road. The 15 County has not assumed the maintenance obligation. 16 Therefore -- 17 MS. CAREY: Because why? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Because the road was not brought up 19 to county specs. 20 MS. CAREY: By the developer? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: By anybody. If it met current 22 specs, and a request was made for the County to assume 23 maintenance, -- 24 MS. CAREY: Mm-hmm. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the Court would take that issue 7-14-08 86 1 up. And if it met specs, I strongly suspect this Court would 2 say yeah, we'll assume maintenance. But we will not do that 3 until it is brought up to those specs. 4 MS. CAREY: So, the public safety issue is really a 5 facade, then. The County really isn't concerned with public 6 safety. They just say it for the benefit of the court 7 stenographer. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: We want you to be concerned about 9 your own safety also. 10 MS. CAREY: Mm-hmm. Well, I am concerned about my 11 safety. That's why I'm standing up here right now, and 12 that's why I'm making all this noise, is 'cause I feel that 13 the County has a responsibility to step up to the plate, not 14 only for the wealthy in this town, but for the working class 15 and the disabled and the elderly. Those are the people that 16 live on that road. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, they need to be concerned for 18 their own safety. 19 MS. CAREY: So, should we stand out in the court -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: The folks that are getting roads 21 maintained by the County have paid for that right by virtue 22 of the property that they bought abutting a county-maintained 23 road. That cost was rolled into the cost of their property. 24 MS. CAREY: It's a case of discrimination on the 25 part of the County. And you're a rude man. 7-14-08 87 1 AUDIENCE: I know. I work at it. 2 MS. CAREY: You're good at it. Thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: You wish to be heard, sir? All 4 right. Come forward and give us your name and address, 5 please. 6 MR. CHAPA: My name is Carlos Chapa. I live on 7 Primrose Road. And the reason I was raising my hand was 8 maybe to try to save a little time. I just wanted to explain 9 to Ms. Carey -- I believe that's her name -- that the 10 county-maintained part of Primrose starts at Bear Creek and 11 runs about 880 feet, and I own three parcels of land that I 12 bought there. And that land was not part of Bear Creek 13 Estates when Lehmann and Monroe subdivided it. That's why -- 14 and I built part of that road, and then the County came in 15 and finished it, because the County at one time thought that 16 that strip of property had never been deeded to the County, 17 but I dug up county records proving otherwise, and then they 18 went in and finished it when Mr. Holland was county 19 commissioner. And Mr. Odom finished the road and, the 20 following year, paved it, as -- as he had given me his word 21 that he would. So, that is -- that's why that part of 22 Primrose is paved and county-maintained. 23 At the end of my property is where Bear Creek 24 Estates begins, and those roads are horrible. But -- and I 25 feel bad for all of the people that bought property there, 7-14-08 88 1 because at the time, Lehmann and Monroe were not obligated by 2 any standards, I believe, to bring the roads up to county 3 specs. I believe some of the deeds that I read one time by 4 Lehmann and Monroe, road maintenance was, like, $2 a month, 5 so everybody thought, well, that's great. But they didn't 6 read that at the end of ten years, that that was going to 7 stop and they were on their own. So, it's a bad situation 8 for everybody that lives back there, and it doesn't take a 9 quarter inch of rain to make the roads impassable. Actually, 10 a drought like we've had, I have people going up the road and 11 just spinning their tires in -- in dry dust and gravel and 12 tearing up their cars. And -- and my son has just built a 13 brand-new home, and you can't sit outside because of the dust 14 that's caused by the road -- the cars going up and down the 15 hill, including wrecker trucks or U.G.R.A., whoever goes up 16 there, L.C.R.A. trucks. But I believe that not this court, 17 but maybe the court that was in session, or the commissioners 18 that were in charge when Lehmann and Monroe subdivided that 19 maybe have a little responsibility in not having implemented 20 the standards that the County has now. Of course, I believe 21 maybe they weren't -- maybe they weren't looking far ahead 22 enough as to what problems this would cause. I don't know. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A lot of that -- a lot of 24 what you talk about is true, but it took place before Kerr 25 County had subdivision rules in place, and that's the reason 7-14-08 89 1 why those standards were not imposed on that developer at 2 that time. 3 MR. CHAPA: Right. That's what I'm saying. The 4 Court at that time wasn't looking far enough ahead and didn't 5 have those policies in place. But what we have now is a bad 6 situation. What I think all these people want to know is, 7 how can their representatives help them? I understand the -- 8 the privacy laws where the County can't spend public funds on 9 a private subdivision like Tierra Linda or whatever. But -- 10 and I understand Mr. Odom's point of view. I think we have 11 to look at everybody here, not just one party. Mr. Odom 12 probably gets frustrated because we, as a county, ask him to 13 do more than he can with the money that we give him. My 14 taxes went up drastically when my road was paved. I don't 15 mind it a bit, 'cause I can go out there and cook a ribeye 16 steak on my barbecue pit and have grandkids and family sit 17 there and enjoy it without getting covered in a cloud of 18 dust. And it is a cloud of dust. I mean, you can turn on a 19 fan and throw 5 gallons of talc powder in front of it; that's 20 how bad that dust gets, it's so fine. So -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Back in those days -- and 22 I'm not -- I'm not singling out Lehmann and Monroe, but a lot 23 of developers -- 24 MR. CHAPA: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- back in those days, -- 7-14-08 90 1 MR. CHAPA: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- they would sell you -- 3 they'd show you this plat. 4 MR. CHAPA: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And they would -- they would 6 have the words on the plat, "These roads are dedicated to the 7 county." 8 MR. CHAPA: Mm-hmm. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And you buy it thinking that 10 these are county roads. Well, you can dedicate stuff all day 11 long; that doesn't make it a reality, until the Commissioners 12 Court accepts them -- officially, by vote, accepts them. So, 13 they're just roads out there that are -- sure, they're 14 dedicated to the county, but they're not county-maintained 15 roads. 16 MR. CHAPA: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So I think something similar 18 to that is what happened way back then. 19 MR. CHAPA: Well, sure, that's exactly what 20 happened. And I don't own property adjacent to Primrose 21 that's unpaved, but it affects my family anyway. And I'm not 22 against spending some of my own money to improve 800 or 900 23 more feet of it, and then have the County take it over. But 24 I think we need -- you know, I think that the people in Bear 25 Creek Estates need suggestions, maybe, written down, or 7-14-08 91 1 options that they can pursue. If -- if a transmission line 2 is going through Bear Creek Estates, maybe they can apply for 3 a grant from L.C.R.A. since they're going to have trucks in 4 there; L.C.R.A. has been known to make benevolent grants in 5 large amounts to different organizations. That's a 6 possibility. I mean, I wouldn't discount any possibility. 7 I'm -- I like to get something started, like to get it done, 8 and I like to pursue all options. Maybe U.G.R.A. -- they 9 could say, "Hey, your trucks are going to be coming in here 10 to maintain this transmission line, and you're going to be 11 tearing our roads up worse. It's a public safety issue. 12 Would y'all contribute to our street association and help us 13 pave at least maybe the main trunk line of that?" Who knows? 14 You know. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you're -- that's a very 16 good idea. And I think if you talk with L.C.R.A., there's a 17 pretty good likelihood of -- they're going to be using that 18 road substantially. 19 MR. CHAPA: There a huge organization. 20 MR. ODOM: They're already doing -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They can do something. But, 22 I mean, it's -- I think if you can do all you need to, you 23 know -- 24 MR. CHAPA: You know, they buy power from U.G.R.A. 25 -- I mean from L.C.R.A., so there's lots of options. But I 7-14-08 92 1 think that we need suggestions in writing as to what options 2 that -- that the people can follow, and how to go about 3 forming that organization about the streets -- street 4 department. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe Ms. Carey should have that 6 information. I'm looking at a communication from Mr. Emerson 7 to Ms. Carey. This is way back in the latter part of May of 8 this year, suggesting that she contact Road and Bridge to get 9 an explanation of the statutory authority on how they become 10 county-maintained, how public roads become county-maintained. 11 And in the event there's interest in forming a road district, 12 there was a reference by the County Attorney to the 13 appropriate provisions of the Constitution and the -- and the 14 chapter of the Transportation Code by which that can be 15 accomplished. 16 MR. CHAPA: And I think maybe having in writing a 17 copy of what designates a brought-up-to-spec road. Would 18 that include paving on the hard surface, or just -- or just 19 the -- you know. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: That's found in our -- 21 MR. CHAPA: So that -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: -- in our subdivision regulations, 23 and Mr. Odom is very well-acquainted with all of those 24 requirements. 25 MR. CHAPA: Right. 'Cause I've -- 7-14-08 93 1 JUDGE TINLEY: He can certainly provide that 2 information to you -- 3 MR. CHAPA: 'Cause I've heard before that if it 4 just -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- on Primrose or -- or whatever. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tierra Grande. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Tierra Grande or any other others 8 that are similarly affected. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I got some out there on Elm 10 Pass the same way. 11 MR. CHAPA: 'Cause I have heard before, just rumor, 12 that if you brought in 6 inches of crushed base and culverts, 13 put it in and all that, the County would take it over and 14 pave it. I didn't know if that was correct or not. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't believe it is, but you can 16 check with Mr. Odom. He certainly has -- has the knowledge 17 about that. 18 MR. CHAPA: Okay. Well, that's my -- I just -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The formation of a road 20 district is certainly an option, and it's a viable option. I 21 do know that there are some folks on Primrose Lane who do not 22 want a road district, 'cause I had a telephone call from one 23 of them. 24 MR. CHAPA: Really? Well -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It takes a majority vote of the 7-14-08 94 1 registered voters within the district. 2 MR. ODOM: Of the district, voting landowners. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Registered landowners. 4 MR. CHAPA: I also want to thank the County for 5 taking out the cattle guards on Bear Creek Road. (Laughter.) 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why didn't you get up and 7 speak earlier? 8 MR. CHAPA: Well, they told me to sit down. I 9 moved here in October of '74, and both sides of Bear Creek 10 were fenced, some of it high fence. And I think a couple of 11 months ago, they took the cattle guards out. But that was 12 ownership pressure that kept the County, I think, from taking 13 them out. They thought they were speed bumps, but it never 14 slowed me down. So... (Laughter.) Thank you very much. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate your candor. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I want to make a 17 point here. On our -- the present Kerr County policy on 18 impassable roads, the fourth item, it says Road and Bridge 19 Department may dispatch appropriate manpower and equipment to 20 make a road minimally passable for emergency services, 21 thereby correcting the situation on a one-time basis only. 22 Now, I don't know how you do that. I don't know if we need 23 to change the "one-time" basis only. I think that that's a 24 Rex Emerson call. I just -- I can't -- you know, I just -- 25 this fear thing comes when I think about if we go out there 7-14-08 95 1 and fix it one time, then we're not ever coming back, and 2 somebody's house burns down, somebody gets hurt. That scares 3 me a whole lot. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Me too. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: As it should. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As it should. And so that's 7 the only thing I know of that I would even consider changing. 8 Otherwise, we need to stay off of private property. I will 9 not go to jail for these folks, at all. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you suggesting maybe the County 11 Attorney needs to review that and possibly bring us some 12 options? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a good idea. Boy, 15 you're good. Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on this particular 17 agenda item? We -- Mr. Simmons? You wish to be heard? 18 Could give us your name and address, please, sir. 19 MR. SIMMONS: I my name's Bernie Simmons. I live 20 at 701 Primrose; I've been there for about 12 years. When I 21 bought the property, I knew it was a private road. I've done 22 a lot of work on it. A few of the neighbors close to me has 23 paid money for some gravel, and I have a small tractor which 24 I grade with, but it can't, obviously, do a very good job 25 like the county does. But I've really appreciated the County 7-14-08 96 1 coming in and grading the hills that they've done. They 2 didn't do the one in front of my house, because it was 3 passable enough and was good. You know, I really know that 4 people are supposed to take care of their own roads in front 5 of their house if it's a private road. I understand that. 6 But not everyone back there can afford to do it, okay? I've 7 put more money out than I really had to put out a few times. 8 My mother-in-law paid for 400 feet to keep the dust down at 9 her house. But I just want to thank the County for coming 10 and grading it when it was necessary. And I know the law 11 says one time a year or one time for a disaster, but a lot of 12 the hills, when it rains, it gets really bad really quick. 13 Even if -- even if I've put a lot of fill on it and stuff, it 14 still washes it out, because I can't get it shaped the way it 15 should be to start with. And I appreciate the County coming 16 and doing what they can do. I would like to maybe get it -- 17 you know, if they just came and graded it twice a year, even 18 if it didn't wash it out, would help a lot. Okay? The 19 roads -- I'm not talking about the -- I'm talking about the 20 hills, not the whole road. But if it rains, it does get 21 really bad and it does need some attention, and that's all I 22 have to say. Thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Simmons. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? Let's take -- 7-14-08 97 1 MS. SIRIANNI: Can I just add one thing? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Come forward; give us your name and 3 address. 4 MS. SIRIANNI: Sure. I'm Lezlie Sirianni. I live 5 at 1101 Primrose. And I think one of the other major 6 concerns -- Bernie has done a lot. We've put in a lot of 7 money to pave -- to putting a lot of the material on it. 8 There's a lot of people that own property out there that 9 don't live there, and I think that's one of our biggest 10 concerns too, is that we're putting in a lot of money for the 11 area that we live on, but there's area past that where nobody 12 lives on that property that can help maintain that, and that 13 is the pieces of the road that are not being maintained, 14 especially past our house. Bernie helps us keep it to our 15 house where we can get our cars up there, but it's past that. 16 I think to get down to y'all's house is the really bad, bad 17 hill, and most of the people who own that property don't live 18 here. And I think that's just another issue that needs to be 19 pondered. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's just -- that is the 21 reason a road district is a pretty good option lots of times, 22 because those people will pay part of the cost. If they 23 don't live there, they don't vote there. If they're not a 24 registered voter, they don't get to vote. 25 MS. SIRIANNI: That was my other question, is, 7-14-08 98 1 like, they're not going to want to vote to -- to have that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They don't have a vote. If 3 you're not registered to vote within the area that you draw, 4 they have to -- they'll have to pay the additional tax if 5 it's assessed. But it's only those that are registered 6 voters of the area, as drawn up by the people that choose the 7 road district. They vote, and if it's a majority of those 8 people, everyone has to pay. 9 MS. SIRIANNI: Okay, thank you. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Anyone else? Yes, sir? 11 MR. CHAPA, III: Carlos Chapa, III, 301 Primrose. 12 That's my father sitting there. So, from what I've -- the 13 information I've gathered today is y'all are not going to 14 come out there, do anything, 'cause it's private property. 15 So, if I pave it, the section, you know, from the bottom to 16 my house, then do I need to get with him, and they come and 17 say, "Okay, this is the right pavement," or, "This is wrong"? 18 Or are they going to send somebody that's an engineer or 19 smart about that? 'Cause I know nothing about paving roads. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He does. 21 MR. CHAPA, III: Are they going to send somebody to 22 say, "This is what you need to do, and this is how it needs 23 to be done"? 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That would be the wise thing 25 to do before you start fixing the road. 7-14-08 99 1 MR. CHAPA, III: Right, 'cause that's just telling 2 me -- I mean -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Any of the local contractors -- 4 if you were to use a local contractor, you hand them our 5 subdivision rules on road specifications, and that would make 6 sense to them, and they could talk to Leonard to make sure. 7 Leonard will inspect the work. 8 MR. CHAPA, III: I want somebody to sign off, 9 because then if they show up and say, "This ain't the right 10 kind of gravel," you know, or, "This ain't the right kind of 11 culvert" -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You don't want that. 13 MR. CHAPA, III: Do you know what I'm saying? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 15 MR. CHAPA, III: So, that's just all I want. Thank 16 you. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chapa. 18 MR. CHAPA: Another quick question. Let's say that 19 -- let's say that we bring 800 more feet of road up to county 20 specs and pave it according to the county specs, and would 21 the County then take increments? Like, would they take that 22 800 feet, or would they say, "Well, it's still in a private 23 subdivision, and we're not going to maintain it." I just 24 want to make it clear. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Generally, we take -- 7-14-08 100 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As your Commissioner, I will 2 vote to accept that. 3 MR. CHAPA: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know the 5 recommendation of the County Engineer or not, but I -- 6 MR. CHAPA: What I'm thinking is, maybe -- maybe 7 the road district that is formed might not have $1.2 million 8 to do the whole subdivision, but maybe they could do 9 increments, 800 feet a year. You know, five years, you'd 10 have a bunch of road done. And if the County would adopt, 11 you know, increments of 400 feet or 800 feet if it was 12 brought up to county specs, that would be good. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Back in the olden days, even 14 before Bill Williams was born, if you could even imagine life 15 then, -- (Laughter.) 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hard to. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- that's how they did it. 18 They just -- the County, I mean, just fixed a mile at a time 19 until they finally got it all done. 20 MR. CHAPA: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Back in the olden days, 22 though. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hard to remember that far 24 back. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, it's hard to remember. 7-14-08 101 1 MR. CHAPA: Okay. Thank you. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Anything else? 3 MR. McGRATH: Don McGrath. I'm not a resident 4 there. Our place is at 220 Bear Run, but we don't live 5 there. We plan to in the future. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Sorry. Please give your name for 7 the record. 8 MR. McGRATH: Donald McGrath. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I'm sorry. 10 MR. McGRATH: The question is -- you were talking 11 about them appointing a road group where they all get 12 together and, you know, they can put the funds together to 13 have the road done. Are y'all going to enforce what they 14 decide? Like, if they get together as a group and they -- 15 they say all the taxpayers -- I mean, all the residents of 16 Bear Creek Ranch are going to give $1,000 a year towards the 17 road fund. I'm just saying hypothetically. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: There's two ways you can do it. 19 MR. McGRATH: I'm telling you hypothetically what 20 I'm thinking. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Two ways you can do it. 22 MR. McGRATH: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Y'all can get together at somebody's 24 house over coffee or whatever, and y'all can decide you're 25 going to fix your road, and y'all can pass the hat, without 7-14-08 102 1 any enforcement ability of requiring anybody to put anything 2 in the hat. And if there's enough money in the hat to hire 3 somebody to bring the road up to county standards -- here, 4 again, we'd suggest you check with Mr. Odom and make sure 5 that your plans are going to be satisfactory and comply with 6 subdivision regs, and you can do that on a voluntarily basis, 7 bring it back and ask us to do whatever you fixed, to assume 8 maintenance for. The other route you have is to form 9 yourself a road district under the appropriate state statutes 10 in which you hold an election, you approve or disapprove the 11 formation of a road district to improve the road, and that 12 way, you have the legal authority to impose a tax on those 13 within the district to pay their portion, as specified in 14 that statutory authority. 15 MR. McGRATH: That would include nonresidents as 16 well as residents? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Absolutely. As long as they own the 18 property. 19 MR. McGRATH: Y'all are going to stand by it and 20 say, "Oh, these people aren't paying their share; we're going 21 to take their property"? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Actually, what happens is, our Tax 23 Assessor enters into a contract to collect those taxes for 24 you. 25 MR. McGRATH: But y'all are going to stand by doing 7-14-08 103 1 that, taking people's property if they don't pay their road 2 taxes? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the remedies for delinquent 4 taxes in a road district, so far as I know, are the very same 5 as the county, the school, city, wherever. 6 MR. McGRATH: As long as it's binding. 'Cause 7 there's a lot of people up there that don't want to put a 8 road there, and there's a lot more that do. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Then they would vote 10 against the issue. 11 MR. McGRATH: So, y'all are willing to take the 12 heat for that? 'Cause it's going to be a lot of heat when 13 everybody starts saying -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: We don't form the road district. 15 You folks form it by your election. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have other road districts in 17 the county. Mr. Evans? 18 MR. EVANS: My name's Von Evans, 211 Von Trail. I 19 want to commend Mr. Odom. Our roads in our community are 20 county roads. At one time, they were not. Now, under our 21 bylaws as a community, we, as a board, were allowed to say 22 we're going to make our roads acceptable to the County and 23 then convert that to county roads to be maintained by the 24 county. And our roads are absolutely exceptional. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 7-14-08 104 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's in Precinct 1. 2 (Laughter.) Attaboy. 3 MR. ODOM: May I -- now, another option is -- is 4 not for the County to maintain it, but to get a sealcoat, 5 just like they did on top of the hill, where it's 14 feet or 6 where it's 16 feet wide, and get a surface up those hills so 7 that they would have an all-weather road. That's the way to 8 do it. That's the cheaper way to do it. It's -- it's a 9 private -- it is their road. We don't maintain it. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: But they -- they use their own 11 private pooled funds for that purpose. 12 MR. ODOM: If they're talking about 800 feet this 13 year, then that's what they do. The next year, like that, 14 and they get up the hills or they do where the money runs 15 out. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that way, those roads will 17 not become county-maintained? 18 MR. ODOM: They will not be county-maintained, but 19 they will be accessible. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Passable? 21 MR. ODOM: That's right. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Unless they're brought up to 23 county standards. 24 MR. ODOM: Unless they're brought up to county 25 standards and they want to be county-maintained. 7-14-08 105 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's take about a 15-minute 2 recess. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. 4 (Recess taken from 11:06 a.m. to 11:22 a.m.) 5 - - - - - - - - - - 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come back to order, if 7 we might. We were in recess for a moment or two. Let's go 8 to Item 9, if we might. Consider, discuss, and take 9 appropriate action concerning use of Schreiner Trust Fund for 10 projects in Precinct 1 and Precinct 4. 11 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Odom? 13 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Good to see a lot of wonderful, 15 smiling, happy, friendly faces in here. 16 MR. ODOM: That just shows I have less hair after 17 that one there. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Couldn't get much less. 19 MR. ODOM: I know; it's getting close. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Look who's talking down 21 there. (Laughter.) The glare. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: You and I need to keep our mouths 23 shut. 24 MR. ODOM: The only thing that keeps it up is that 25 hairspray that covers it right there. Trent Lott, II, right 7-14-08 106 1 there. Unusually high cost of petroleum products has caused 2 severe budget problems for our department, as it has everyone 3 else. Besides the fuel products, some of the other issues 4 that hurt the department's budget are the additional cost 5 passed on from all the vendors now. The T.C.E.Q. pulled our 6 water permit because of the drought. This causes us to 7 travel to the wastewater treatment plant instead of using a 8 water source near the job site, as we've always done. 9 Unexpected bleeding on Sheppard Rees required extra funds to 10 repair that. The annual bids for cold mix came in at $5.56 11 more per ton over the last year, and black base increased 12 $3.56 a ton. That increases every truckload to at least 13 $139. TexDOT's off-site bridge report that I recently -- 14 that we just completed required that we spend over $12,000 on 15 bridge repairs for gabions. And we still have the following 16 projects that were planned in the '07-'08 budget that we do 17 not have the funds yet, and that's -- now that we've reached 18 -- we had the bleeding problem on Sheppard Rees, I need to 19 restrip Sheppard Rees, sealcoat 3.2 miles of Fisher Road, 20 level up material that I'm completely out of, and base 21 material I'm completely out of on line items. We ask that 22 you allow us to use $36,000 from the Schreiner Trust Fund to 23 do this work in Precinct 1 and 4, which it is dedicated for. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What is the balance of the 25 Schreiner Road Trust? 7-14-08 107 1 MR. ODOM: 200 and -- 2 MS. HARGIS: 63,000. 3 MR. ODOM: $263,000. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: See? I was close, wasn't I, 5 Buster? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, you were. I can't 7 believe you was off $12,000 like that. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, I was off 3,000. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 10 MR. ODOM: It is something that's viable, and it's 11 there, and it's for Precinct 1 and 4, and I can use it for 12 those. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you a question. 14 The Fisher Road thing, I thought -- or did I dream this or 15 did I hear it through the grapevine? -- that the family may 16 want to take the road over and them fix it themselves. 17 MR. ODOM: No, I don't think so. I think that they 18 are -- had approached -- or suggested that they would -- if 19 we did complete our sealcoat program, that they would ask for 20 3.2 miles to be -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 22 MR. ODOM: -- taken off maintenance. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. All right. I just -- 24 MR. ODOM: That's all. And if Fisher Road was 25 there, and then I had a mile in there programmed for that up 7-14-08 108 1 above this point, but they've come to us and said that they 2 would like to take it over themselves for maintenance, if we 3 would do that portion for sealcoat on that portion, instead 4 of the mile that I had in front of it. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They do want to fix it and then 6 take it -- 7 MR. ODOM: That's right. And they would buy the 8 ag -- the oil. They would furnish the oil. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: For the project? 10 MR. ODOM: For this project. This 10,000 is for my 11 -- the money I have for this is for aggregate. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Doesn't include the oil? 13 MR. ODOM: No. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So they would already be 15 participating. 16 MR. ODOM: That's right. And, legally, they can do 17 that. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 19 MR. ODOM: By statute. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: What's roughly the cost of the oil 21 for that? 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Approximately 16,000, I 23 believe. 24 MR. ODOM: I want to say something like that. It's 25 a buck 74 a gallon, and I'm sorry, Judge, I don't know. It's 7-14-08 109 1 3.2 miles, about 14 feet on the average. I don't have my 2 calculator on me. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Significant participation. 4 MR. ODOM: A significant participation, more than 5 what I have, and more than I would have spent on that one 6 mile of Fisher Road, which I doubt if I could have probably 7 done anyway, the way that my money is going. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want y'all to notice, and 10 do not forget this; that a measly $8,000 is in my precinct. 11 The rest of it's off out yonder in Louisville, where nobody 12 cares. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, yeah, but you know 14 what? You've got something in the past, and -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I might tell you also that 17 Precincts 2 and 3 don't participate in this pot of gold. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly right. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's why I'm quiet. It's up 20 to y'all if you want to fight. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Captain Schreiner had 22 vision. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I see. Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just wanted to keep it away 25 from Comfort. 7-14-08 110 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Maybe next time you'll get 2 more than I do. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's exactly my 4 point. 5 MR. ODOM: That is very possible. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is very likely, 7 actually. But, Leonard, I think -- I personally think that 8 you need to come visit with us, and privately, before we get 9 this thing out in the public next time, please. 10 MR. ODOM: All right, sir. I thought this was a 11 public forum, so I wasn't ashamed to bring it up. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That was a simple request. 13 MR. ODOM: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We don't have to -- did 15 you -- 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I move for approval. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you have a problem with 18 what I just requested? 19 MR. ODOM: No, sir, I sure didn't. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I second it. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second as 22 indicated. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 23 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7-14-08 111 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carries. Let's go to 3 Item 10; consider, discuss, take appropriate action 4 concerning the renewal of the letter of escrow G.F.No.070721k 5 for BTEX Ranch, L.P., located in Precinct 3. 6 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. The letter of credit for 7 Privilege Creek expires July the 24th, 2008. At the time of 8 this memo, we had not received the new letter of credit. It 9 is here today; we received it on the 9th. It's in the front 10 of my notebook here. I don't know if she passed on anything 11 else, but I do have that for y'all if you wish to see it. 12 Does the Court wish to accept it and extend the final plat 13 for one year? Privilege Creek is the one that's had problems 14 from Kendall County and all the legal things, so they wish to 15 pursue a -- start Privilege Creek up, Phase 1. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: If we do not extend this, that money 17 is returned to them unrestricted, and away they go under the 18 terms of -- 19 MR. ODOM: Well, my terms, that would be correct, 20 but I believe that they have sold one lot. I don't know. 21 But this -- I believe that there's one lot that's been sold. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did they come in in the 23 right time frame or not? 24 MR. ODOM: Sir? I'm sorry. What, now? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You made a comment a little 7-14-08 112 1 bit earlier that the letter of credit was due on a certain 2 date. 3 MR. ODOM: July the 24th. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And they came in with it 5 today? 6 MR. ODOM: Well, the 9th. When was that, Friday? 7 When we wrote this letter, we had not received it. And 8 that's -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's dated the 10th, and 10 today's the 14th. It was due on the 24th. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. So, they're in 12 before. 13 MR. ODOM: They're doing it before, right. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They're in compliance. 15 MR. ODOM: They're in compliance. And what they're 16 asking is for an extension, 'cause we normally have one year, 17 which is what we normally do. It has been the policy of the 18 Court to do that. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: And that includes acceptance of this 22 new letter of credit to run through July 24th, 2009? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 24 MR. ODOM: That's correct. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion and second as indicated. 7-14-08 113 1 Question or discussion on the motion? All in favor of the 2 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (Commissioners Baldwin, Williams, and Oehler voted in favor of the motion.) 4 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Abstain. I abstain. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Let the record reflect 10 that Commissioner Letz neither participated in the discussion 11 and abstained from the voting thereon. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Chicken. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Leonard, if -- yeah, we need to go 14 to Item 21. It is an 11:30 timed item. I indicated to 15 Mr. McCoy that I thought we may not get to it till after 16 lunch. I forgot at that time it was a timed item. Consider, 17 discuss, and take appropriate action on request from the 18 Texas Parks and Wildlife Department to use office space at 19 one of the Kerr County facilities. Mr. Evan McCoy with Parks 20 and Wildlife. 21 MR. McCOY: I want to thank y'all for allowing me 22 to be on the agenda and hearing any request. I am with the 23 Texas Parks and Wildlife department. My exact title is a 24 private lands biologist. Basically, what that is, the bulk 25 of my work is providing technical guidance to landowners of 7-14-08 114 1 Kerr County and surrounding counties. Really, the hill 2 country area, all the way from Crockett County, Val Verde, 3 McCulloch County, just quite a few counties. I cover about 4 200,000 acres under that management. And what I do is -- is 5 provide wildlife management assistance, range and wildlife 6 management so landowners -- it's a free service. I also deal 7 a lot with deer permits. M.L.D., managed land deer permits, 8 is a program we offer landowners. It's kind of an incentive 9 program for them to do management practices. We provide 10 these permits free of service. 11 I actually office at the Kerr Wildlife Management 12 area. I'm sure many of y'all are familiar with that area. 13 It's about 25 miles west of here. I've been officing there 14 for about two years, a little over two years, until recently. 15 We had some changes in our state vehicle policy as far as use 16 as far as commuting goes. We're no -- we're no longer 17 allowed to commute in our state vehicles, as well as it's 18 budgetary reasons, of course, with the high fuel prices. We 19 did not -- when they -- I think when they were coming with 20 our budget for this year, they figured in gas at 2.85 a 21 gallon. Of course, we're well above that. So, I live here 22 personally; I live here in Kerrville, and so, like I say, 23 commuting is a problem. What we were wanting to see if there 24 was any office space available closer to Kerrville, closer to 25 my house, within the -- within the Kerrville area -- 7-14-08 115 1 Ingram/Kerrville area, if there was any county facilities 2 that I'd be able to office at. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would it be fair to assume 4 that there is no space available at U.G.R.A. where Texas 5 Parks and Wildlife has its other offices? 6 MR. McCOY: We've checked on those. There may be 7 some areas I still have yet to check. The Parks and Wildlife 8 office, they -- Mike Krueger, who's the division -- the 9 director there, said that there was really no space 10 available. There was a small little closet that they have a 11 copy machine in, and that they didn't think it would be 12 possible. My supervisor, Donnie Frels, talked with U.G.R.A., 13 and they said the same thing, that it was pretty limited. 14 And so I -- again, I'm here with a request for county 15 facilities. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The program that you work with 17 is an excellent program, and it's a -- the Parks and Wildlife 18 has done a great job in allowing landowners a whole lot more 19 flexibility on managing their deer population, and have made 20 it a lot easier to harvest a large number of does by 21 landowners. So, I mean, it's a great program. The only spot 22 that I can think of is out at our Ag Barn. We have three 23 offices that are down there that are certainly not luxurious, 24 but they're not being used right now. They have, at one 25 point or another, been used by Maintenance or leasing of that 7-14-08 116 1 facility, which is not -- which we just don't use those. So, 2 if that's available -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That small little office. 4 You know, you got the main one. You walk in the last door; 5 there's another one down that hall on the left. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. That's the one -- 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's the one I would be 8 thinking about. It's big enough. You're not going to be in 9 the office a whole lot, probably. 10 MR. McCOY: It really depends on the time of year. 11 Now, the summer, you know, it's fairly slow, not a lot going 12 on. But in about August, surveys start picking up, and, you 13 know, people start demanding or requesting permits. That's 14 when I'll be out of the office quite a bit. No, I don't need 15 a huge space. I don't have -- you know, just a computer, you 16 know, filing cabinet, desk, that sort of thing. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Be enough for that. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I presume there's probably no 19 budget in y'all's funds to lease it, so -- 20 MR. McCOY: Well, that -- I guess we need to 21 discuss that. Of course, it would have to -- our fiscal year 22 starts September; they would have to know the dollar amount 23 and be able to see if they could budget that in. If -- 24 certainly, you know, if there's any utilities, things as far 25 as utilities or internet -- I do require internet, of course, 7-14-08 117 1 being in the -- 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's internet out there. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's been wired. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's wired for computer 5 and -- 6 MR. McCOY: And telephone and everything. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Telephone. It's all there, 8 available. 9 MR. McCOY: Telephone and internet is really what I 10 need. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we -- I'm certainly 12 interested in pursuing it. I mean, right now it's unused 13 space. I just don't see that we're going to use it. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't believe that space is 15 used at all any more since Alyce left. 16 MS. PIEPER: It's used for elections. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Little bitty office in there. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you talking about where 19 you walk through the glass part, or are you talking about 20 where you turn to the right -- 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: To the right, and then the 22 office door. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's where Mr. Holekamp 24 used to be. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. 7-14-08 118 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: You said that is used for elections? 3 MS. PIEPER: We used it last time. They can use 4 the maintenance office, the big office. They don't have to 5 use the smaller office. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. That's the one as you just 7 come through the glass doors? 8 MS. PIEPER: Right. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 10 MR. McCOY: I haven't seen that office already. I 11 haven't -- I'm not familiar. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: You may want to go out there during 13 the lunch hour and take a look. 14 MR. McCOY: Yes, sir. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: See what that consists of. The 16 Auditor had a question. 17 MS. HARGIS: No. I know that the Fair Association 18 uses that when the they count money and stuff during the 19 fair, that little office. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That doesn't seem fair. 21 MS. HARGIS: Once a year. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They can use the other office, 23 too. 24 MS. HARGIS: They'll just have to find another 25 place. 7-14-08 119 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, they can use that main portion 2 behind the counter there. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: And the elections could. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Especially if we can make a 6 little bit of money off of it. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Stock show also uses it. 8 Stock show also uses that space during stock show. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I mean, it's used at 10 times. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mostly use the upstairs 12 office for that stuff. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, if that -- anyone who's 14 using that office space could make adjustments; they can use 15 other space available out there and not cause any problems in 16 their operations, in my opinion. We need to figure out 17 something, what a fair -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How about $100 a month? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Something like that, a pretty 20 nominal amount. Just enough, basically, to -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Offset our utility costs. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Utilities, maintenance, 23 cleanup. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Something like that. Maybe -- 7-14-08 120 1 I was thinking probably more like $200 a month, whatever. 2 Something. It's not a large amount. 3 MR. EMERSON: Just a discussion issue, but I think 4 you need to clarify whether he's talking about the office is 5 already wired for internet and telephone, or it already has 6 services available and hooked up and activated. There's a 7 difference between being wired and being active. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, he -- they would be 9 responsible for -- for their own cost of telephone and -- and 10 internet access. That certainly would be their expense. And 11 he understands that, I'm sure. 12 MR. McCOY: Yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, 'cause it's wired for 14 it, but not -- I agree with you. We're not going to be 15 responsible for paying for the service. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Like we do D.P.S. so much. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, anyway -- 18 MR. McCOY: So -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- you go out there; that -- 20 those double glass doors, if you open kind of right in the 21 middle of the old part of the building, if you go through the 22 doors, turn to the right, go through the doorway, it's just 23 to the left. That's where the office is. And it's -- 24 MS. PIEPER: Judge? There was a router for the 25 internet in the main office, and then when we used the 7-14-08 121 1 smaller office, we used the wireless. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I know it was wired, though, 3 because Alyce had it wired for her computer. She was working 4 out there. 5 MS. HYDE: Right, there was a computer out there 6 for her. 7 MR. TROLINGER: Alyce had dial-up, and we now have 8 internet service for the general public available. It's not 9 on the county network, but it does have internet access. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So go look at it, see if you 12 think it would work. Talk to whoever, and see if they think 13 somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 a month is reasonable 14 and come back, I guess. 15 MR. McCOY: Okay. And it's -- I just need to get 16 with Maintenance? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Get with Jody and she 18 can get you with Tim Bollier, our Maintenance Director. She 19 can show you the spot. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's probably locked. 21 MR. McCOY: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You'll need a key to get in. 23 MR. McCOY: I guess that's it. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 25 MR. McCOY: Thank you. 7-14-08 122 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come back to Item 11, 2 it looks like; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 3 approve the service contract for the plat scanner and plotter 4 for another year, authorize Judge Tinley to sign the same. 5 Ms. Pieper? 6 MS. PIEPER: This is basically just a renewal of 7 the contract. However, there is a slight increase of 16 8 cents per linear feet on the plotter/scanner. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Say that one more time? 10 Sixteen cents what? 11 MS. PIEPER: Well, it's half a cent for each linear 12 foot that we print out on the plats. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: It's now 16; it's going to 16 and a 15 half. Have you reviewed the contract -- or the previous 16 contract? 17 MR. EMERSON: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it all right? 19 MR. EMERSON: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 23 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 24 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7-14-08 123 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll go to 4 Item 12; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 5 review and acknowledge the quarterly report from Patterson 6 and Associates, that being the quarter ending June 30th, 7 2008. Ms. Williams? 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Morning. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Morning. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: I hope you -- I think that y'all 11 each have a copy of the quarterly investment report. I 12 didn't know if you had any questions. I'll try to answer 13 them as best as I can if do you. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Things are not too good in 15 the money market, are they? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: No, sir. Not good anywhere right 17 now. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we need to accept this, or 19 is this just for informational purposes? 20 MS. WILLIAMS: I think it needs to be reviewed and 21 acknowledged. Is that right? 22 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Acknowledged or accepted? 24 MS. HARGIS: You don't -- just acknowledged. You 25 don't have to accept it, just acknowledge it. 7-14-08 124 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Acknowledge receipt? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that we 3 acknowledge receipt of the investment report from Patterson 4 and Associates -- quarterly investment report. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 7 indicated. Question or discussion on that motion? All in 8 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 13, if we might. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See what this is going to 16 cost. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Consider, discuss, and take 18 appropriate action to provide funding for the cost of 19 transfer of volunteer fire department dispatch from the 20 police department -- I assume that's Kerrville Police 21 Department -- to Kerr County Sheriff's Office, as requested 22 by Kerrville Police Department. I don't see anybody here 23 from city of Kerrville Police Department with that request. 24 Sheriff? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Let's say it was just told by 7-14-08 125 1 Kerrville Police Department that they will -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's a mandate. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Huh? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A mandate. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's one of them unfunded 6 mandates. $3,006. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I believe that copy is in 9 there, but where does it come from? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The Sheriff's salary. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Of course, this is exactly 12 what we should be doing, anyway. The city police department 13 shouldn't be dispatching our -- our fire departments anyway. 14 Do you have any money left in your Jailer Salary line item? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There probably is a little 16 bit. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Maybe we can fund it out of 18 that. You wouldn't get all mad about it? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: As long as the Appraisal 20 District doesn't get another 21,000 out of it, I guess we 21 can. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I second the motion. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 24 indicated. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 25 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 7-14-08 126 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let's go to 5 Item 14; consider, discuss, and approve the deletion of one 6 sergeant position and addition of one patrol deputy position. 7 Sheriff? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm doing a little bit of 9 in-house restructuring. I'm not -- I am combining a current 10 lieutenant's position and a sergeant's position into one 11 administrative lieutenant's position, which does away with 12 the sergeant one. Doesn't change the lieutenant's salary at 13 all. It's just combining it and trying to do away with quite 14 so many chiefs and add a few more indians, cause I need the 15 patrolmen. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: What about budgetary impact? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Budgetary impact, it will go 18 down about a thousand, something like that, about a thousand 19 a year because of the salary difference between a patrolman 20 and a sergeant. It drops. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 24 indicated. Question or discussion? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- it doesn't change -- 7-14-08 127 1 I don't know what you're doing here, but just as an example, 2 it doesn't change the drug task force type thing, or any 3 other department inside your department? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It does change? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In a way, it does. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're still going to chase 8 bad guys? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Oh, yeah. I'm changing the -- 10 what is currently the lieutenant over the -- just the 11 narcotics -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- guys, okay? Changing him 14 to an administrative lieutenant. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Which will be training and 17 administration and day stuff, and putting the narcotics guys 18 under the regular criminal investigative captain and doing 19 that, so it's kind of streamlining things. I don't need a 20 lieutenant that supervises two or three people. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't mean to get into 22 your business at all, and I won't, but I am interested in 23 your -- 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what I'm doing. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- in your team. Okay, 7-14-08 128 1 thank you. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Still keeps the same amount of 3 guys actually working narcotics. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Super. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question or discussion? 6 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 7 hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll move 12 to Item 15; consider, discuss, take appropriate action 13 regarding the long-range plan for Kerr County jail and radio 14 system. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think this is something that 16 we need to start at least formulating and paying some very 17 serious attention to. If you look at our average daily 18 inmate population, this one, the last page will give you the 19 totals on it. It was July of 2006 to July of 2007. The 20 second one's July of 2007 to today -- yesterday, the 14th. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many copies do you 22 have? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We made one right now that you 24 can -- just mainly it's the numbers at the bottom that you 25 can look at, two different records. 7-14-08 129 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What, do you need some more 2 money for your copy machine or what? 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Needs paper. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He made one for us? Is that 5 what he's saying? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Y'all can get online, since 7 you got the capability now, and print your own. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have never been treated 9 like this in my life. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What it -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You can print your own money 12 and come back, then. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: At least put it on as 14 backup. Then we have it. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What that shows is last year, 16 a year ago, the average daily population was 150. For the 17 last year, this average daily population is now 163. Okay? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that's right at where 19 you're supposed to be? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 153. I'm ten over. I'm ten 21 over where I'm supposed to be. The peculiar part about that, 22 if you look at it, is the actual number of arrests has not 23 really changed that much. The number of people coming into 24 that jail is not changing; it's the amount of days they're 25 staying. A lot of them are being prosecuted now, as you 7-14-08 130 1 know, since the Legislature changed where you can prosecute 2 -- not prosecute, sentence some felonies now as misdemeanors, 3 now they're getting sentenced to county jail time. Or when 4 they violate their probation, they're getting sentenced to 5 county jail time. That's increasing our average daily. It's 6 one of those unfunded state mandates to keep the state jails 7 from getting overcrowded. Bottom line is, we're going to be 8 hurting, obviously, with the jail situation very quickly. I 9 think we've been headed there. We've talked about it in the 10 past, and I think it's time that we form a committee and 11 start letting the public know and start looking at either 12 some alternatives somehow, which I don't know of any right 13 now, or we're going to have to start looking at expanding 14 that jail. And that creates a whole 'nother set of issues, 15 'cause once you go over the 200 bed capacity, then a lot of 16 things change, kind of like the population going over 50,000; 17 it changes a lot of the deals. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty, I don't -- I agree with 19 what you're saying, but I also -- I'd like to defer a little 20 bit, or at least probably go with a different committee than 21 you're probably thinking. And my -- what I'm thinking is, we 22 have a new District Judge coming on board first of the year. 23 We have a new District Attorney coming on first of the year. 24 I would like to -- to have Rex and a few others, and 25 probably, you know, a representative from the County Court at 7-14-08 131 1 Law and the two District Judges, District Attorney's office 2 to meet and look at if there's something we can do, even 3 internally, that everyone's voluntarily willing to do to move 4 some of our inmates in and out quicker. That's the cheapest, 5 easiest, and hopefully we can make some progress there. I 6 think you'll agree, see what kind of cooperation we're going 7 to get. And then proceed with what you're -- you know, we're 8 looking at, but yours is more of a citizens' task force than 9 what I was looking at. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm just bringing it to you. 11 We need -- whether it's that or a citizens' task force or 12 whatever, I think we definitely have to -- I think we're past 13 the point of -- we really need to take this serious and start 14 looking or it's going to hit us bad. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, I've had a number of 16 questions and comments and concerns from citizens about how 17 we can house and care for these prisoners in your jail. Most 18 of them, I think, arise out of the notoriety that Sheriff 19 Arpaio has gotten out of Arizona, and the tents, all the 20 work -- work details, all this other stuff. And I would like 21 to see a representative from the Jail Standards Commission 22 come down here and, in a public forum, give us an explanation 23 of what we can lawfully do or can't lawfully do in detaining 24 these prisoners, keeping them incarcerated. Because, 25 frankly, a lot of citizens that I've talked to say that jails 7-14-08 132 1 are getting to the point where they're almost country clubs. 2 People are just cooling their heels, watching a little TV, 3 and getting three hots and a cot. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't necessarily disagree 5 with you. Jail standards state what I can and can't do. 6 And, yes, we can have tents, as long as they have solid 7 floors and air conditioning and heating and running water and 8 showers and all that, so you've changed everything. But then 9 you got your security issue. Sheriff Joe Arpaio, the only 10 problem I have, and what is not brought out by most of your 11 newscasts and your media -- and I've even done some research, 12 because I would like to be able to do some of the things he's 13 done. But I'm afraid if I do, this county's going to run me 14 out of the county on the next train because of a couple of 15 things. Quote, Sheriff Arpaio is the most sued sheriff in 16 the United States, costing county taxpayers a whopping 41.4 17 million in lawsuit-related money because of the inhumane 18 conditions in his jail and the numerous in-custody deaths 19 occurring in there. For the period of January '93 to 20 November 2007, the county's paid $30,039,928.75 in lost 21 lawsuits. Okay? Their -- their insurance policy is -- from 22 '95 to '08, was premiums of 11,345,000 in premiums. The -- 23 from '95 to '08, the amount paid each year was 328,894, with 24 a one million dollar deductible. And I don't think this 25 county can afford any of those. You know, 11 million for 7-14-08 133 1 policies would break us all. It certainly would break my 2 budget, and it's never been anywhere near that. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, the other issue I have -- 4 and if the basis for these jail standards that require all 5 these hot showers and heating and cooling, and the whole 6 litany of all the comforts of home, if the basis for those 7 requirements are constitutional, as prescribed, say, by 8 federal judges that we can't do anything about, we're 9 probably stuck with it. But if that's not the basis for 10 those requirements, if it's because the Legislature has 11 authorized those sort of regulations, and pursuant to that, 12 the Jail Standards Commission has promulgated some sort of 13 regulations, then we may have another issue to come before 14 the Legislature, because it perturbs the hell out of me when 15 I see some of the second-class citizens and convicted 16 felons -- and jailbirds, in my mind, are second-class 17 citizens -- who are out there enjoying the comforts of home, 18 getting fed their meals, cooling their heels, watching a 19 little TV, not hitting a lick at a snake, and we've got boys 20 in Iraq that are out in the field, and we got them right up 21 here at Fort Hood that are out in the field that soon will be 22 deployed to Iraq, I'm sure, and they are living in much worse 23 conditions. They're sacrificing a whole bunch more, and 24 they're our nation's heroes. And you've got these pukes in 25 your jail -- 7-14-08 134 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You use my language, Judge. 3 Let me explain something. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're going to excite him 5 now. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Number one is, the Legislature 7 created the Jail Commission back in the early '70's. I don't 8 have a choice. If we want to keep a jail open, we have to 9 abide by those deals. If -- if the citizens of Texas can get 10 that changed, more power to them. I've got a certain set of 11 rules and laws that I have to run that jail by. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand that. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay? Number two, it not only 14 perturbs you, it does perturb me too, that I have my own kids 15 that can't afford -- or their job doesn't offer them health 16 insurance, but yet they can't afford it on their own, and 17 they get bills and have to work out some kind of payment plan 18 like most of us for the hospital to get our bills paid. But 19 if they want to come out to my jail and sit there for a week, 20 we can take care of all those medical problems, and you and I 21 as taxpayers are going to pay theirs totally, all right? 22 Where we can't pay our own. And having a son that has fought 23 in Afghanistan, I understand that, and I appreciate exactly 24 what you're saying. But, Judge, unfortunately, I don't have 25 a choice, all right? I don't want to see this county get -- 7-14-08 135 1 I'm already named in lawsuits regularly as it is, all right? 2 And I have lawsuits now, and we had one that went all the way 3 to a jury trial and cost this county a lot because I add an 4 inmate fall out of a bunk, all right? The state laws don't 5 change the federal laws, and the lawsuits are in federal 6 court on how we treat our inmates. And you and I, as far as 7 I know, can't get that changed. If you can, I'll get on that 8 band wagon with you and we'll try and get it changed. I'd 9 love to see it changed; I'd love to see inmates pay a lot 10 more than what they have to pay, instead of you and I paying 11 for their medical bills, but that doesn't change my issues. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me -- let me weigh in 13 just a little bit here. Number one, isn't it Justice -- 14 William Wayne Justice that is the problem? This federal 15 judge that has made all these rulings? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: He had control over the 17 penitentiary. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: He did state -- now, the other 19 issue that we do have, real quick, Buster, and then I'll let 20 you finish your deal, is the one thing we do have to 21 remember, this is a county jail; it's not a penitentiary 22 system. And most of the people in my jail are still presumed 23 innocent and not found guilty. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, right. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Sorry. But, you know, 7-14-08 136 1 reality, that's the way it is. So, what freedoms -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I happen to know the guy, 3 one of my dear friends -- what's his name, Rusty? That jail 4 standards guy? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Adan Munoz. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's been in this courtroom 7 before several times. And I do know him a little bit; we 8 visit. And I will invite him down here. I don't know -- I 9 may settle for one of his lieutenants or something like that, 10 but we really want him, the head guy, to come here to this 11 courtroom. And what -- the way I personally would like to do 12 it is, you -- you rattle off some interesting questions, the 13 issues, like -- and one thing you forget is the lighting in 14 those rooms. What can we do, from the pink underwear to air 15 conditioning and all those issues. Make a list of those and 16 send them to him before he comes down here so he will be 17 prepared to answer our questions. Y'all want to do that? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think a lot of what -- what I 21 think the Judge was saying is that we need public awareness. 22 Also, we need to know, is it our responsibility or is it the 23 State's responsibility or the feds? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. That's what 25 we're going to do. 7-14-08 137 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Who's causing us to do it this 2 way? If we can change it ourselves, if we have the ability 3 to make some changes, then it's our responsibility. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think our desire is to see 5 them out there in pink underwear and out in a tent, and worse 6 shape than what he -- he described. Because -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: They're out there growing their own 8 food. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Growing their own food and 10 working their butts off every day. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Number one -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's our desire. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Some of that -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we can do it. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Some of that, growing their 16 own food is a real possibility. We could do that. It's 17 going to cost the county in guards, okay, and equipment. I'd 18 have to have the guards to be able to guard them. Having a 19 chain gang out on the interstate picking up trash, and on any 20 county road, I can definitely do that. I would love to do 21 that. We have a small group because I can have one guard 22 with it. Now, I'd love to have a lot more of that type of 23 stuff, and I think it -- it should be that way. But, again, 24 you're talking employees. You're talking guards to guard 25 these people. They have to be guarded. And, unfortunately, 7-14-08 138 1 you know, a lot of it is the classification of the inmates we 2 get. The type of people that are in county jails now, a lot 3 of them would not qualify, or I would not want to put outside 4 those confines of the walls to work unless we had a good 5 enough set of guards to be able to guard them all. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, let me break in here, if I 7 might. A couple members of the Court have a commitment for a 8 meeting in ten minutes, and I know you've got some more items 9 to talk about here. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Go to lunch and come back, 11 Judge. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: So, we're going to turn them loose 13 to go where they need to go, and we'll come back at 1:45, and 14 we'll finish up this agenda. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you, sir. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Court is recessed until 1:45. 17 (Recess taken from 12:01 p.m. to 1:45 p.m.) 18 - - - - - - - - - - 19 (Commissioner Baldwin not present.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come back to order, if 21 we might. It's now quarter till 2:00, and we're back from 22 lunch, and -- some of us are. Some of us are engaged in 23 wholesale discussion that has no relevance to what we're 24 doing here. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And not listening. 7-14-08 139 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We'll move on to the next 2 item, then, as the Sheriff is participating in other things. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I'm not. 4 (Commissioner Baldwin entered the courtroom.) 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Commissioner Baldwin wasn't 6 here; I had to delay until he could get here. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We were on Item 15; consider, 8 discuss, take appropriate action regarding the long-range 9 plan for Kerr County Jail and radio system. Translated, that 10 means M-O-N-E-Y. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For all of us. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why? Because we love you. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: As you know, in the -- I think 15 we probably talked about the jail end of that. And we just 16 need to get something done on it, but we also, at the same 17 time, have the issue with converting everything over to 18 digital radios. I have put, several weeks ago, a month ago, 19 a copy of a kind of bid letter I got from Dailey Wells and 20 what it would cost to convert over, which is 1 to 1.2 or 21 3 million, to convert us over, and we're required to do that, 22 I believe, by 2015, which is the end of -- December of 2014. 23 So, my issue -- my deal is, if we end up having to expand the 24 jail and having to -- after a committee of however y'all want 25 to do it sits and looks at it, I don't know if it's better 7-14-08 140 1 for us to try and do a bond issue on the jail and the radio 2 system at one time, or if we just need to at least get 3 something rolling on it, 'cause that's going to come pretty 4 soon. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you, 2015, 6 required by law that you be changed over with a different 7 system, et cetera. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about between now and 10 then, communicating with those people that are already 11 changed over? Or have they already changed over? What do 12 you do about that? They will between now and 2015. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We lose communication, okay? 14 Now, the City is ready to totally convert over. I think 15 that's really part of the reason we're getting the volunteer 16 fire departments back, because they aren't digital and they 17 could go digital at any time. The City is capable of doing 18 it. I'm not ready; our department can't do that. The -- I 19 sent y'all one -- and it's currently in the budget. We can 20 discuss it during the budget considerations. There's a bid 21 of $181,000 just to change out our radios in our cars. Not 22 our infrastructure of our radio system, but just our in-car 23 radios to digital, which would give us the capability of 24 being able to hear the City when they switch, on their 25 channel, by us switching over to their channel, 'cause our 7-14-08 141 1 radio itself would be a digital. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can they hear you? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And they could -- now, they 4 can hear us either way. If we do not go to digital radios 5 and we stay with our analog, the city system will give 6 them -- or does give them the capability of hearing us, even 7 though we're analog. We can't hear them. And that's part of 8 the dilemma, why I have an issue and don't understand part of 9 what they're doing, even though I've had a couple meetings 10 with their captain, is that the officers on the street, to 11 me, have to be able to communicate with each other. That's 12 the most important part. If you look at who benefits more 13 from communicating with each other, there's no ands, ifs or 14 buts, in my opinion. The city benefits more from us being 15 able to hear them than them being able to hear us, because we 16 back them up on a whole lot more calls inside the city than 17 they ever run out in the county and give us backup when we 18 need it, 'cause they just don't do that. And so it really 19 benefits them for us to be able to hear. And it's going to 20 be an interesting budget year, I know, and there's some other 21 issues I think the County has to look at. So, we have 22 applied for a grant. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, would the possibility be 24 -- would you say that it's a possibility that you backing up 25 the city police department may dwindle some or stop? 7-14-08 142 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I hope it never ever stops. I 2 don't want it to stop. It could be that I have to settle it 3 first with us being able to convert radios, since it is such 4 a large cost. Converting maybe one or two of my cars on each 5 shift, and then at that point, we would at least have one or 6 two cars that could monitor them all the time. They could 7 then tell the other units. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So that we could still do it, 10 but yeah, it could hamper it some. But I just -- I'll be 11 honest; I don't see how the County can totally afford that 12 kind of switch-over on this short of notice, and that kind of 13 expense. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think the County needs to -- 16 personal opinion, and I think y'all will hear it from most of 17 the department heads, and you've even told it to me -- really 18 concentrate on getting the County's employees' salaries up 19 equivalent with other areas that -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, Rusty, the -- you 21 know, where is the -- where's the major cost in the radio 22 system? I mean, by taking -- let's say you have three or 23 four guys working, your guys working the county, and you have 24 the -- have your sergeant or lieutenant or whatever the guy 25 is that swings around -- 7-14-08 143 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- and goes wherever he's 3 needed. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's say that he's the guy. 6 Let's change his radio in his car to the analog, and then he 7 can pass out the information to the other guys out in the 8 field. That's not the expense, to change out that vehicle. 9 The expense is the towers and all that, isn't it? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You -- okay, you got two 11 different issues. The radios themselves in the car, the 12 current conventional radios that we purchase every year for 13 our patrol cars average between $400 and $500. That's for 14 the car. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The portable radio that the 17 officer carries with him so that he can hear everything when 18 he's outside the car is another $300 to $400, okay? So, 19 we're spending less than $1,000 per set. Now, for a portable 20 and a car radio for each officer, digital, that costs, for 21 both of those -- for a car radio is $1,700, and for a 22 portable is $1,800. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wow. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay? So, then -- and then 25 you talk installation, so we're talking $3,600 per set. 7-14-08 144 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As opposed to $1,000. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Compared to $800, $900. 3 That's the big difference. That's a major difference 4 converting our radio system over to digital, is because of 5 the county's terrain. And back when the County went with 6 this system that they have, we had -- if y'all will all 7 recall, we had times with the other radio system -- and at 8 that time, there was deputy, now J.P., David Billeiter, who 9 was out by the airport and could not even get on the radio 10 when he was jumped by several people he had stopped, and -- 11 and like to got hurt, and we couldn't break a tower. Because 12 we had approximately 50 percent coverage with car radios and 13 about 40 percent coverage throughout the county with 14 hand-held radios, so we did not have the coverage. For the 15 County to get the coverage throughout the county, back then, 16 the County elected to go with a simulcast system, which, 17 instead of just having one tower, has four towers throughout 18 the county, the main part, and they're all linked together. 19 And what they call "simulcast," if a guy's out by Garven 20 Store, out by Mountain Home, he keys his mic; it hits the 21 tower out on Highway 41, and within milliseconds, it will hit 22 the tower out on Elm Pass, okay? So that it all converts at 23 the same time so that everybody can hear everyone. 24 Otherwise, we would have had to go to a system like S.A.P.D. 25 where the guys west could never hear the guys east and all 7-14-08 145 1 this; you have to actually change channels. So, the 2 simulcast system is where it can do it all, and now we have 3 98 percent coverage throughout the county with car radios, 4 and 95 percent coverage with hand-held. 5 At that time, we also had the option of going to 6 the -- what they call APCO 25, the digital system. This 7 system that the County went with cost 900-something thousand. 8 The APCO 25 was going to add onto that another 1.3 million 9 because of the digital equipment instead of just the analog, 10 so the County elected to go with just the analog. Which I 11 had no problem, because at that time the digital -- nobody 12 was sure what was happening. There were meetings constantly 13 on it. You know, some of this still is going to change. And 14 so I also supported just the 900,000 expenditure, and not the 15 1.2 or 1.3 million. Now the State is coming back and saying, 16 actually, by January 1st, 2015, which would be December of 17 2014, everybody has to be digital. So, by December of 2014, 18 you know, we have to spend that other 1.2 or 1.3, whatever it 19 comes in at, million dollars to go to digital. It's kind of 20 like our TV's; now everybody's got to be digital. Maybe 21 we're running out of bandwidth in areas; I don't know. 22 Trolinger may be able to understand that a lot more. But 23 that's where we're at. But the other issue is, by 24 January 1st, 2013, which is December of 2012, we have to be 25 narrow band. If we just go narrow band, that's another 7-14-08 146 1 50,000, okay? Dailey Wells and everybody else that I have 2 talked to says, "Don't go narrow band without going digital." 3 You're spending 50,000 that you're going to redo anyhow two 4 years later. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So, if we're required to do it 7 by 2013, and we don't spend the 50,000 that we have to redo, 8 it means we have to go digital by December 31st, 2012, which 9 is not very far away, and we're looking at 1.2 or 1.3 million 10 to do that. And by that time, our jail situation is going to 11 be critical and we're going to have to be looking at that. 12 So my suggestion, in trying to look forward, is we need to 13 start preparing for both of those now, whether it's through 14 committees, whether it's through Jonathan's way of finding a 15 different way to divert some of the jail population, whatever 16 it takes, that we need to seriously start planning for these 17 expenses that are going to hit us. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: When does this -- is the radio 19 system paid for? Is Jeannie here? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Jeannie's not in here. I 21 thought it was 2010 or something like that. Is that what she 22 said? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought we had one more 24 payment on it. 25 (Ms. Hargis entered the courtroom.) 7-14-08 147 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it would be -- when is the 2 communication system paid off? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Radio system. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you remember? 5 MS. HARGIS: Which one? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 980,000, I think, something 7 like that. 8 MS. HARGIS: There's one that's coming off this 9 year, and I -- what was it called? I know it by the name. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Dailey Wells simulcast radio 11 system, Sheriff's Office. 12 MS. HARGIS: The issue date was in 2005. The -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That was the juvenile facility, the 14 2005, 1.2 million. 15 MS. HARGIS: There's one that comes off this year. 16 And it -- it doesn't really tell me what it was for, 'cause I 17 haven't been here long enough -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That would be it. So, it's -- 19 this is the last year, or we have one more next year? 20 MS. HARGIS: No, this is the last year. We have 21 one that's retiring every year now. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 23 MS. HARGIS: Until 2011, I believe it is. 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 MS. HARGIS: 2011, and that's our last one. And 7-14-08 148 1 the jail one, the jail is the last issue that we pay off. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We did the radio system in 3 2000. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That would be right; eight 5 years, I think. 6 MS. HARGIS: If you did the radio system in 2000. 7 I don't think that's the one that's coming off this year. 8 Let me call the auditor. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 2000, 2001. I think it was 10 late 2000. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But those are two great big 13 issues that were -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, my point -- if the first 15 one's coming off, a similar amount, it can be financed the 16 same way. It's a -- 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do a tax anticipation? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. You'd have to 19 tie the jail problem with communication. I'd rather separate 20 the two. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. I'm just saying those 22 are the -- whether you try and do it together or not. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's coming off this 24 year. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Here's your -- this is your '05 7-14-08 149 1 juvenile facility, 'cause it's coming down by about 475 a 2 year. This is just titled Fund 59, General Contractual 3 Obligation. I made a note here. There's courthouse 4 improvements; that's off. There's the jail bond. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Comes off in 2012. Yeah, I 6 think it's that other one. I think it's only other one, 7 'cause the only ones we had were the courthouse renovation, 8 communications system, and then the computer system. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: That's computer right here. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Bank of America, '07 capital 12 financing. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It comes off this year right 14 now. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This year? It might. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think -- I don't 17 think you'd want to lump the two together, because we can 18 limp around now on the jail issue. We could limp around a 19 little bit, or we can send them to Fort Worth or -- you know, 20 you can do that. But on the radio systems, you can't. We 21 got to get her done. Don't you agree with that, Rusty? And 22 if they were lumped together and the bond issue failed, then 23 you've lost the radios. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I -- I agree with a portion of 25 that. As far as housing inmates -- 7-14-08 150 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What part do you not agree 2 with? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Housing inmates out of county, 4 I do not agree with that. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, we'll send them out to 6 west Kerr County. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Oehler's got a ranch. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just using that as an 9 example. There are things you can do with the jail, where 10 you can't do with the radio. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 12 MS. HARGIS: Okay, we actually already paid that 13 one off. The last payment on that one was February the 15th, 14 2008. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That was -- 17 MS. HARGIS: That was for 900,000; it was -- and it 18 was the Series 2001. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's paid off? 20 MS. HARGIS: It's paid off. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's good. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, there's the bandaid to 23 retirement. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think he knew that all 25 along. 7-14-08 151 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, honestly didn't. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't you want to lump a few 3 cars in there, too? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm like you, Buster. This 5 year I'm going to fight for employees. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think that's what we got to 8 look at. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think on the jail issue, I 10 mean, we need to start looking at it. I think we need to 11 look at it internally through the courts, the District 12 Attorneys and that whole area. I think we need to look at 13 other alternatives over housing them, what our other options 14 may be and what we can do with them, you know, what our 15 requirements are under state law. We have to kind of look at 16 all three of them. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I'm open to all that. I'm 18 just bringing it up that something has to start moving. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I really don't think at this 20 point a task force is of benefit. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't either. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Of the community citizens. If 23 we decided on a direction, I think we need to try to get that 24 task force maybe to buy into it and help sell it. But at 25 this point, I think we're still in the basic research mode. 7-14-08 152 1 I think it's going to take a year or so to get that done. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rusty, did you have a 3 number for the improvement of the communication system to get 4 us up to current -- 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What Dailey Wells sent then 6 was the cost to convert your two-channel, four-site simulcast 7 system, B25, will run somewhere between 1 to 1.3 million 8 dollars. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That's in 2008 10 dollars? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's right. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, if we delay by two or 13 three years, that number's going to go up. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what I have on that. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The jail issue, the only thing 19 I would like to see is -- we talked about this several years 20 ago. It goes up. I've even seen it this year. Each year at 21 times, I've seen our population over 200, okay? It's causing 22 you know, some issues in the jail when you crowd it like 23 that, or when I can't classify -- yes, we have a few beds, 24 but when you can't classify, you start having more and more 25 problems. The only issue I'd like to see us do, and we 7-14-08 153 1 talked about it last year, we did some RFQ's; we did a few 2 things, and then it kind of got shelved. I just think if we 3 don't start at least taking steps constantly and looking at 4 it constantly, we're going to end up in a situation that is 5 going to cost us all a whole lot more, and a lot quicker, 6 'cause even if it were a bond issue -- you know, I'm not 7 promoting that right now, but if it were, we all know it 8 would be a couple years or three before it ever opened, that 9 portion of it, the addition. And it's just where we're at 10 and what we are going to look at, I'd like to see some kind 11 of movement. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm going to move 13 forward with asking Adan to come down here and do that part 14 of it. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Find out what's legal and 17 what's not legal for us if we're going to -- if we build one. 18 So -- 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I think that -- and then 20 Jonathan's deal; let's get with the prosecutors and judges 21 and see if they can -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think that's very wise, 23 'cause you have two new guys coming in, a D.A. and a District 24 Judge. You got to catch them while they're fresh, before 25 they learn how to tell us to go to hell. 7-14-08 154 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, the D.A.'s already 2 learned that he can prosecute and punish under misdemeanor 3 and put them a year in the county jail. He did that last 4 week. So -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: A nice sleight-of-hand movement by 6 the State to authorize that so that they don't end up with 7 felons in the penitentiary. They'll just stick them in our 8 jail. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You got it. Okay. But those 10 are -- that's the main thing. I just need some direction. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Need some direction? (Hand 12 motion.) 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. I figured you'd say 14 that, Buster. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Anything else I can help you 16 with? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: At what point do you think 18 the City will have its conversion complete and you will be 19 incommunicado? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My understanding is they're 21 ready any time. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They're ready to start? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's already there. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Already -- it's already 25 finished? 7-14-08 155 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Already finished, it's my 2 understanding. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They just haven't cut over? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That tells me we need to 6 think about it a little more quickly than we might otherwise. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Me too. Like, next meeting, 8 make a decision. Let's pretend that we -- we're going to 9 make -- we're going to try to make a final decision two weeks 10 from today. What all -- what all do you need to have to 11 convince us that we need to do it? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would need to, one, get 13 authority to probably go out for bids for the conversion, 14 whether it be Dailey Wells, even though we have maintenance 15 contracts with them, or Motorola; let them see exactly what 16 our system specs are now. And because of the cost of that, 17 and you're talking a million dollars, is us bid it like we 18 did when we originally got the system. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You need to write the 20 specs. Somebody needs to write the specs. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And at that time -- I'm not 22 that well-versed in any of that type of language or stuff. I 23 know last time the Court had a company called Trott 24 Communications, I think out of Dallas or somewhere, that came 25 in, -- 7-14-08 156 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They wrote the specs. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- did the specs and did all 3 that. And I don't know if -- if we need to -- to see about 4 somebody like that for professional services, or -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Possibly so. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- or what it is. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: More than likely. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But Dailey Wells should have 9 a pretty clear understanding of a lot of that information. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They would. But with the 11 cost, I think we still would be obligated to have to do bids 12 on it. And if we're going to bid against them, I don't think 13 they're going to do the -- 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We don't want the fox in the 15 henhouse. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's the problem. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what you're going to 18 have. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If they end up being a 20 bidder, I don't want them writing the specs. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because there are some -- 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What's next, satellite? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They wouldn't want to do it, 24 'cause they could get -- 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There are some issues that I 7-14-08 157 1 think we ought to look at and all when we do it. We do have 2 four tower sites, okay, and y'all will remember back then 3 they were about the only four that would give us appropriate 4 coverage we needed, but we're paying leases on those tower 5 sites. And back then, two of them weren't costing us a dime, 6 and we didn't have a lease. They allowed the County to have 7 those. Well, since that time, now they have enforced lease 8 stuff, and we're having to pay them. The other two tower 9 sites, one's not costing us, but the other one is costing a 10 rental or a lease on that site, and it goes up by a few 11 percentage points every year. So that it may be something -- 12 you know, I don't know. That could be more expensive to move 13 that stuff. But there's a lot more -- a lot more tower sites 14 out there now than what there were, and it may be that the 15 County could get a better deal on some of that. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Answer his question. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Satellite. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is satellite coming next 20 after eight years or seven years of this? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or five. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're going to have satellite 23 next, and we're going to mandate change again? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could be. It might. You 25 never know; you might get -- the price may be cheaper. 7-14-08 158 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But when we go with -- 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Technology just changes, and 3 that also mandates that -- that mandates get passed down to 4 this group. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, and there's other things 6 that need to be looked at in this digital, is that our -- I 7 know it's a public safety issue on going digital, and that at 8 least our group is under, but I don't know enough to know, 9 you know, whether our volunteer fire departments -- are they 10 going to be required to go digital by that same date? You 11 know, communications -- or, I mean, I don't know where all 12 this is going to go, and it's going to take somebody a lot 13 smarter than I am to tell us. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's why we probably need 15 to have -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Smarter than you? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A lot smarter. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rusty, that's probably why 19 we need to have a third party come over and talk to everybody 20 before they try to write the specs. If we write specs 21 ourselves, we're going to get in trouble. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The Judge said that it won't be 24 hard to find someone smarter than you. Won't have a problem. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. I don't doubt that 7-14-08 159 1 at all. Boy, I know law enforcement; I don't know radios. 2 I'm kind of like everybody else -- or most people. I pick it 3 up, push a button, and hope I can talk. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I kind of like -- I think both 5 of you down there said we probably need to get this on the 6 next agenda to go out for -- at least determine how we're 7 going to write the specs. If we're going to use Trott, how 8 we're going to do that process. We might want to get with 9 the Auditor and go over -- get into an RFQ process for this. 10 We probably ought to get that done so we have a good number 11 when we hit budget. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't know how we did it 13 with Trott; how the County came up with Trott, even. Did we 14 do it -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we searched to find 16 out who could write specs, and we settled on that one. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Do you have to do an RFQ to 18 get that person or that company, or do you just -- is that a 19 professional service deal? Or what do you do to even get to 20 that point of getting them? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it was professional 22 services, but I'm not -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think it was too. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't know. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know Trott 7-14-08 160 1 Communications. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. So -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They were pretty helpful, I 4 remember. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- I'll see if we can come up 6 with something on -- some recommendation for the next court 7 on who, at least, we can get to help advise the County and us 8 and do specs. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably call Trott and say, 10 "How did we find y'all the first time?" They'd probably tell 11 us. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have no problem with that. 13 That's a good possibility. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, Rusty, you're going to 15 come in here next meeting with these companies, or -- or at 16 least come in with a recommendation, "This is the company I 17 think that we need to go with," so that we can vote on 18 something? Let's get down the road. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. I'll come in with 20 something. I don't know what yet, Buster. It's going to 21 take some thinking. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can see it coming now. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Are we through kicking that 25 one around? 7-14-08 161 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll go to 16; consider, discuss, 3 take appropriate action regarding proposal from second health 4 care provider for inmate health care and possible impact on 5 budget. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. Okay. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I like the word "possible." 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Better than "probable." 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Depends on where we go. After 11 the last time I came to y'all with the health care company 12 that wanted to provide a total turnkey inmate health care to 13 our jail, they had, I think -- I believe I told y'all, like, 14 13 other states that they do it in, but they have never done 15 it in Texas yet. We would be the first one. We did run 16 across that there is a company that is doing it in Texas. 17 They currently have Ellis County and they have Smith County, 18 which is Tyler. And Waxahachie area, Ellis County, wouldn't 19 trade them for the world. They know how Texas works. They 20 know the Texas indigent laws, the H.R. way of figuring out 21 solutions, way of figuring indigent expenses. And they came 22 in and gave us a proposal. They have looked at their 23 contract and their proposal and their history. 24 At this point, I would almost rather see us go to 25 them, because, number one, where the auditor has an employee 7-14-08 162 1 that has to go in and program in all the inmate bills and 2 pharmacy bill and all that to get the computation to pay the 3 indigent, this company will do that for us, so that would 4 save her a couple days a month doing that. It will also -- 5 instead of me cutting four positions for inmate medical, my 6 staff, I will cut five, which is my last one, and we will 7 turn total inmate medical over to this company. The cost is 8 298,000 a year and some change. The other deal is, if you 9 look at my employees, the cost of the five employees, with 10 what the County's portion is of paying the FICA and health 11 insurance and everything else, adds up to a little over 12 400,000, up to about 412,000. So, this would cut that down 13 to 298. 14 Now, the other cost that I have currently -- and 15 this year it's bad. We had budgeted this year 130,000 for 16 inmate medical in the budget. I think we're currently at 17 about 150,000, 140-something thousand, and it's going up, 18 'cause I know we had a helicopter bill that hasn't even come 19 in yet, so it's going to be close to another 170,000 by the 20 end of the year, at least, on top of where we are. For the 21 incidentals, or the stuff that is not covered by this 22 company, as far as the out-of-pocket -- now, some of the 23 specialty stuff we have to do, such as there may be a 24 helicopter trip that they wouldn't pay for; we'd have to. I 25 would recommend the 298,000 for their contract, and then 7-14-08 163 1 another 30,000 in the upcoming budget to help cover these 2 incidentals. Talking to their people and that, that should 3 be all that we would ever require, 'cause they have all their 4 own specialists and doctors that come in and do everything, 5 which would hopefully give the County a cost savings of 6 anywhere between 60,000 and 90,000 a year to go with this 7 company. 8 I didn't put this on the agenda to vote on today 9 for one reason. They have sent me an agreement -- a 10 contract. I looked at it and I rejected part of it, just 11 some of the stuff I could see -- or I didn't reject it; I 12 called them. They changed all the things I requested. This 13 morning I got it back. I gave Rex a copy when we started 14 Commissioners Court this morning. He needs to review it 15 before we ever enter into it. But for budget purposes, my 16 recommendation is going to be that we go with this $298,000 17 contract for inmate health care, put 30,000 incidental into 18 the medical line item. Actually, it cuts six employees, 19 'cause we cut out our doctor too, but he's paid out of a 20 different line item. And that is -- we start all that 21 effective October 1 budget year, and that's what this 22 agreement would be. And then we cut the five medical 23 positions that I have in the jail. 24 The one clerical position I have that does mainly 25 medical, I still need, because this company's not going to 7-14-08 164 1 enter a lot of our stuff into our current computer system, 2 which is where I try and recoup some of our costs from our 3 inmates. So, next budget -- or next Commissioners Court, I 4 probably will bring that back to see if we can go ahead and 5 approve that, so for budget purposes, in preparing 6 everybody's budget, budget hearing, everybody knows where 7 we're going to stand on that issue. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is that not an issue that 9 would have to be bid out, just kind of like our other 10 contract services? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, we went through that last 12 time. It falls under the professional services, and doesn't 13 have to be. And the Court approved doing it; I'm just 14 changing it. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: A limited number of people 16 that can provide this service, and the only provider -- 17 there's only one provider in the state, from what I 18 understand. Other providers out of state? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They're both technically out 20 of state. One's stationed in Colorado and one's in 21 Tennessee. This one does have two contracts in the state. 22 The other one does not have any contracts in the state. 23 They're trying to get some. But what the issue is, health 24 care is more of a professional service than -- than equipment 25 or anything else. And under the -- the Local Government Code 7-14-08 165 1 or Government Code which Rex had pulled up, the County has 2 the authority to do the -- the contracts with them without 3 going through a bidding. It's just, in looking at it, I 4 think this one is a little bit more expensive, but it's a 5 better service. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay? But that's more for 8 information purposes, and I'll bring it back next time. 9 That's it. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have 13 anything else on that agenda item? Let's move to Item 17; 14 consider, discuss, take appropriate action to approve 15 contingency agreement between Kerrville State Hospital, 16 Kerrville Independent School District, and Kerr County, 17 authorize County Judge to sign same. I put this on the 18 agenda at the request of the Kerrville State Hospital. It's 19 what I would classify as a general feel-good eyewash 20 agreement. It's hard to figure out what it really means. 21 We're supposed to cooperate in times of need with K.I.S.D. 22 and Kerrville State Hospital. Seems like the only real 23 specific item deals with transportation, and that's primarily 24 a K.I.S.D. problem, isn't it, Rex? 25 MR. EMERSON: Yes, sir. 7-14-08 166 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I saw here. I 2 didn't see much. K.I.S.D. is going to provide buses if 3 they're available. Move approval. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 6 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 7 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll go to 12 Item 18; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 13 formulate a general public records retention policy for 14 county documents and communications. Policy will address 15 public information not specifically addressed by individual 16 elected officials' departmental policies. Mr. Emerson? 17 MR. EMERSON: Yes, sir. And the reason it's worded 18 that way is because most of your elected officials have 19 records retention plans; they're mandatorily filed with the 20 State Library Archives Commission. We're looking at -- we're 21 missing a records retention policy for the departments that 22 report directly to y'all, to the County themselves. What I 23 was able to find out -- and Cheryl helped me extensively 24 trying to research the old records -- it looks like in April 25 of 1993, the Court approved a committee to put together a 7-14-08 167 1 records retention policy, and it died. There's no record of 2 a records retention policy ever being presented to the Court 3 after that point of adopting. I think the idea of a 4 committee is a good idea. You know, my recommendation would 5 be one of the Commissioners, the Auditor, John with I.T., and 6 then probably somebody from my office to make sure it 7 conforms to the legal requirements, and present it to y'all. 8 The original committee consisted of an Assistant County 9 Attorney, the Auditor, the District Clerk, County Clerk. 10 District Clerk and County Clerk already have their retention 11 policies. Now, like I said, where we're looking is that hole 12 in between. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I like the idea of your -- the 14 members that you cited for a committee. I think that makes 15 sense. That's where our void is. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with Commissioner 17 Letz, for the first time in three or four minutes. And -- 18 but what is it -- what is it we do? What is it records 19 management retention does? Is that how we store -- 20 MR. EMERSON: That determines which records we keep 21 and for how long we keep them. There's a recommended plan 22 for the Library and Archives Commission. This is how thick 23 their general schedule is. I put the reference in my 24 letterhead. I didn't print it for you, because it's 56 pages 25 long. 7-14-08 168 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You guys are really getting 2 cheap, you and the Sheriff. So -- but I thought records 3 were -- as outlined in the law, that certain kind of records 4 you keep 10 years, and certain kind of records you keep 20 5 years, and some kind you keep forever. Right or wrong? 6 MR. EMERSON: Yes and no. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 8 MR. EMERSON: The presumption is that all the 9 documents created in the government are public record, are 10 open record -- subject to open record requests. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 12 MR. EMERSON: And subject to public inquiry. The 13 problem you get into is that for the County to store every 14 single record that we developed for an unlimited amount of 15 time, we'd have to buy a warehouse somewhere. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 17 MR. EMERSON: Which may not be a bad use for the 18 old juvenile facilities building. But, anyway, on a 19 different note, -- (Laughter.) 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm getting a "hurray" on 21 that. 22 MR. EMERSON: -- we need a schedule. And if we 23 adopt a schedule that's in substantial compliance with the 24 Library and Archives Commission recommendation, so long as we 25 file that schedule with them, we can dispose of documents 7-14-08 169 1 legally. I don't know this, but I strongly suspect that 2 there's multiple documents that are, as a normal course of 3 business, being destroyed, that technically there's no legal 4 authorization to do that. This is why we're looking at this 5 right now. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So your committee will 7 cipher what's right -- what's to keep and what's not to keep? 8 MR. EMERSON: They will cipher the types of 9 documents and the recommended retention period, and then 10 bring that recommendation back to the Court for y'all to pick 11 apart and improve upon, and then hopefully adopt. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rex? 13 MR. EMERSON: Sir? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did you say that the 15 previous Court looked at this issue, but didn't adopt a 16 policy? 17 MR. EMERSON: Well, the previous Court appointed a 18 committee, looked at all the different issues associated with 19 keeping records, appointed a records management program, with 20 a committee to put it together. And then I can't find any 21 record that the committee ever brought it back to the 22 Commissioners Court and the Court adopted any order. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't name names, 'cause 24 mine may be on there. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's why I'm looking at 7-14-08 170 1 this Court Order Number 21392, April 13th, 1993. It says, 2 "Approval of Kerr County Records Management Program and 3 Authorization for County Judge's Signature." 4 MR. EMERSON: Sure, but there's no program. If you 5 go through and you read this document, it instructs everybody 6 how to find the answer and to put together a program, but 7 there's no actual records retention program in here. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need -- only other 10 person I think maybe we should add to that committee, just 11 as -- kind of 'cause she's going to be intimately responsible 12 for a lot of this, is Ms. Grinstead. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Being she's not in the room 14 at the time. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And she's going to be the one 16 to keep them all, figuring out a system. So, Judge, are you 17 just going to appoint members? I'll just let you do it. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I'd first look for a volunteer 19 as the Commissioners Court rep. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. No saben English on 21 this end of the table, sorry. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No entiendo. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hey, that's a good thing. 24 We may not have too many records that way. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I've heard disclaimers from all but 7-14-08 171 1 you, Bill. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not available. I'm 3 going to be busy that week. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: They've let me know that they will 5 graciously postpone it until the following week. (Laughter.) 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll do it if you do it. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: We don't need two of us on there. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who was you recommending? 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You might need one and an 10 alternate. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A member of the Court. Bill 12 will do it, and then who else? 13 MR. EMERSON: I.T. Manager. A lot of it's going to 14 be electronically recorded. We need to make sure we have the 15 technical capabilities to do it. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a no-brainer. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You got Bill and John. 18 MR. EMERSON: You need the Auditor, because a lot 19 of it will be financial documents. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: She doesn't mind that at 21 all. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can ask that. We can't 23 appoint; we can just ask. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You guys are running a hell 25 of a railroad here. 7-14-08 172 1 MR. EMERSON: Somebody from my office. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bill, would you keep it 3 down? We're trying to take care of county business here. 4 MR. EMERSON: Somebody from my office to make sure 5 it comports to the statute. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I suspect you can handle that. 7 MR. EMERSON: I can handle it, or I can find 8 somebody who will handle it. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I meant. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fantastic. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Then Ms. Grinstead, ex officio, 12 to kind of keep track of it. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jody's available. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who's going to chair this? 15 You? 16 MR. EMERSON: If you want me to, sure. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think it's a great idea. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See how government works? 20 Nothing to it. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I'll make a motion. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 24 indicated. Mr. Evans, did you want to serve on this 25 committee? 7-14-08 173 1 MR. EVANS: No. I -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Or were you just scratching back 3 there? 4 MR. EVANS: -- have something before you adjourn. 5 I must have been dozing. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Were you scratching because of this 7 issue or some other? 8 MR. EVANS: Another issue. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any question or discussion on 10 the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 11 your right hand. 12 (Commissioners Baldwin, Letz, and Oehler voted in favor of the motion.) 13 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (Commissioner Williams voted against the motion.) 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you, Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You were outvoted. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Let's move to 19 Item 19; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 20 approve resolution in support of federal funding for the 21 construction phase of a new facility to house the 22 Knipling-Bushland U.S. Livestock Insect Research Laboratory. 23 As most of you know, we have been working for a number of 24 years to try and get a new facility for them. The 25 feasibility study has been approved and funded and 7-14-08 174 1 accomplished, with a recommendation to go forward. The most 2 recent action by the Congress was to approve funding for the 3 design and engineering phase. That was approved this past 4 year and is underway now, or about to get underway, and 5 that's going to run us to the construction phase of that 6 facility. And the KEDF, who has secured property to be 7 utilized by that facility out on Peterson Farm Road, in 8 anticipation that we'll get the appropriate congressional 9 funding and approval, has asked us to consider a resolution 10 in support of the construction and funding for that 11 construction, and that's what the resolution, which was so 12 expertly drafted by Commissioner Williams, provides. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move approval. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 approval. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Question or discussion? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I always thought that that 20 place -- I was looking at some of the things that they've 21 accomplished out there, and I thought that they were, like, 22 the eradicators of the screw worm issue. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: They are responsible for the 24 original screw worm eradication program. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why doesn't it say that? 7-14-08 175 1 JUDGE TINLEY: In connection with the -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It does say it. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the facility down in -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Cattle fever tick? Is that 5 the same thing as screw worm? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm, cattle fever tick. 7 But what this does say, too, is that there is a resurgence of 8 that cattle fever tick, and there's over a million acres in 9 Texas that are under quarantine right now, and so that's kind 10 of where we tweaked it a little bit to say that. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think cattle fever tick 13 is screw worm. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't see how it can be. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 'Cause a screw worm is a fly. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Used to be. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, let's see. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a fly that lays a little 19 egg in an open wound, and it turns into a worm, which is 20 called screw worm. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, and that was part of 22 the eradication too. They dropped those boxes of sterile 23 flies. That's right. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sterile flies. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. 7-14-08 176 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I don't think -- the worm 2 doesn't turn into a tick. I don't think so. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See how things are changing? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, I think you're 5 right. I don't think you can be wrong on that one. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, do you think our 7 Congress is going to know that? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I doubt it, but we have -- if 9 we can add screw worm in here, maybe we should. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know, this may be the 11 only place on earth that this conversation could be had. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, now, try this one, 13 Commissioner. Did you ever stop and think about how they 14 sterilized all those flies? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Golly. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One at a time. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Patience. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Patience. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's going downhill fast. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: A little slippage. Okay. We have a 21 vote on that? 22 MS. PIEPER: No, sir. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: No. We need a vote. All in favor, 24 signify by raising your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7-14-08 177 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carries. Item 20, I 4 believe Commissioner Williams asked to be passed. Is that 5 correct? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. We'll think 7 about bringing it back another day. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. We'll move to Item 22; 9 consider, discuss, take appropriate action to approve order 10 from Judge Ables appointing part-time assistant auditor 11 position. Ms. Hargis? 12 MS. HARGIS: I should have enough there; I made 12. 13 I set it up as a temporary position to go to the end of the 14 year, and then I want the Court to approve whether or not 15 that position would be approved as a part-time position again 16 with the budget. This is the gentleman that's been helping 17 us to -- with our computers and the program, and he is the 18 one who did the internal audits for me. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have that 6,250 in our 20 budget? 21 MS. HARGIS: Yes, I already have it in my budget. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 7-14-08 178 1 approval. Question or discussion? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Question. What 3 happens -- what happens at the end of September 30? 4 MS. HARGIS: Well, it's my understanding I need to 5 come to the Court and ask whether or not I can have that 6 temporary part-time position in my office, 'cause it's -- 7 that's a new position. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're coming at that time 9 to ask -- 10 MS. HARGIS: During the budget. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- for this renewed like 12 this? Or are you talking about a full-blown employee? 13 MS. HARGIS: No. No, only a part-time. He will 14 only do part-time. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Full-blown part-time. 16 MS. HARGIS: He would prefer doing part-time. He's 17 doing contract just because it would provide him with, you 18 know, a little bit of extra benefit by having Social Security 19 paid. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Permanent part-time. 21 MS. HARGIS: Permanent part-time. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It seems to me like this 23 might should have been done long before now. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We have had a contract 7-14-08 179 1 employee who has access to everything in this county who is 2 not a county employee. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: An employee, as such. He's an 4 independent contractor working under contract. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Independent contractor with 6 all kind of access that a lot of people don't have around 7 here. I think this is fine. Wonder what's going happen to 8 your other part-time position I understand that you have in 9 there. 10 MS. HARGIS: My other part-time is not a part-time 11 position; it's also a contract worker. She's doing filing 12 and so forth, and she will probably be gone within the next 13 couple of weeks. It's just a -- 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We'll talk about that at 15 another time. 16 MS. HARGIS: Just a very temporary position. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do that another time. I 18 don't agree with it. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did we vote or not? 20 MS. PIEPER: No, we haven't voted. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: We haven't? All right. All in 22 favor, signify by raising your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 7-14-08 180 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Okay. I guess 2 we're now we're down to paying the bills. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We don't have bills on here, 4 do we? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I don't think so. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Say what? 7 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got the bills right here. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think I had one question. 10 I think -- yeah. I know I've seen this -- let's see. 11 Commissioners Court, Page 3. I've seen this before, but I -- 12 I apologize. I can't remember what this is all about, that 13 last one. Texas Association of Counties, professional 14 services, Patterson. 3,160. What is -- tell me what that 15 is. 16 MS. HARGIS: Well, the description is not right, 17 for one thing. Texas Association of Counties, it's part of 18 our insurance. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Now that makes a 20 little sense. 21 MS. HARGIS: The description is incorrect. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Professional services is 23 incorrect? 24 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What should it be, 7-14-08 181 1 insurance? 2 MS. HARGIS: Mm-hmm. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All-righty. See how much 4 fun this is? 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Remember the Patterson lawsuit? And 7 we had -- they paid the attorney -- what's her name? This is 8 the deductible on that case. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The jury one was Frigerio. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Frigerio. This was on a -- 11 MS. HARGIS: I don't know about that. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: -- on a jail lawsuit, I believe. 13 And -- 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This is the lawsuit that went 15 all the way through federal trial. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And then there was a check 17 for $3,160, I think, that was sent to the attorney. She held 18 a check. Margo -- 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Frazier, expert witness. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. She held a check for so 21 long, billed again, got paid, so this check got returned to 22 us, and we, in turn, have to pay TAC because they, in turn, 23 paid Ms. Frazier. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 25 MS. WILLIAMS: That's what that was. I'm sorry. I 7-14-08 182 1 just -- I remember Nona mentioning it to me the other day. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This Patterson, is that a 3 lawyer? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, Patterson is the name of 5 the inmate that sued us. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We were successful in that 8 lawsuit. But that's the one that went to a jury trial in 9 federal court. Margo Frazier, who y'all all recall was a 10 former Sheriff of Travis County, is also now a for-hire 11 expert witness in jails and things like that, and making a 12 lot more money than she ever made as sheriff, and she came in 13 and testified on the County's behalf during that trial. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Have you thought about doing that, 15 Rusty? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'd love to. Y'all finish 17 paying for my doctorate and my lawyer degree and all that. 18 I'd have to, you know -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, did the county finish paying 20 for hers over there in Travis County? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, but she is one, so I'm 22 sure Travis County paid her a lot better as sheriff than Kerr 23 County pays me, so she probably could afford to do that. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure glad we asked. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I gather you're unhappy with the 7-14-08 183 1 salary? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I didn't say that. I'm 3 sitting down, Judge. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's talk about Margo. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, let's talk about Margo. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. What else? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's it. Thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody else have anything? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move we pay the bills. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: You made a motion? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move we pay the bills. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to pay the 14 bills. Question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 15 signify by raising your right hand. 16 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Budget 20 amendments. 21 MS. HARGIS: There's a lot more this time. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we're getting towards the end 23 of the year. There's a summary of, looks like, 20 of them. 24 MS. HARGIS: Again, these are mostly line item 25 moves. 7-14-08 184 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Within -- 2 MS. HARGIS: Within that department. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Within the same department. 4 MS. HARGIS: Right. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: There are a few of them that are 6 outside. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I don't see any that 8 are capital outlay, so -- that aren't explained. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Do I hear a motion that the budget 10 amendments, as shown by the summary provided by the Auditor, 11 be approved? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Question 15 or discussion on the motion? Number 11 on there -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good question. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: If I'm not mistaken, both of those 18 travel allowances were just increased this current budget 19 year. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They were. 21 MS. HARGIS: Due to the cost of gasoline. The -- 22 he went over because of that. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We haven't had a stock show 24 since January, have we? 25 MS. HARGIS: These are -- he has some more that are 7-14-08 185 1 coming up in August. This is -- he's asking that this be 2 approved before he expends the funds. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we did the increase because of 5 the increased fuel cost last year. 6 MS. HARGIS: One of them. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: We're going from $6,000 to $8,000, 8 effectively. We had 1,996, effectively $2,000. Just went up 9 significantly to $4,800 on the 4-H, and now we're going to 10 add another grand to it? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, the -- I don't -- I 12 share the concern, but I also think if we're going to -- if 13 he's going to go to stock shows, we have to pay for them. 14 But it's at a point where it may be better to buy a county 15 vehicle than pay reimbursements. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that's what they're trying 17 to drive us to. The travel allowances that they have out at 18 Extension are different from the travel allowances that we 19 have for county employees. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: These travel accounts are charged 22 for in-county mileage, the slippery slope that we have talked 23 so many times about. 24 MS. HARGIS: Not any -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: And they -- their explanation was, 7-14-08 186 1 well, they were given travel allowance in lieu of, quote, 2 salary increases a few years ago, and so that was okay. So, 3 effectively, what they're asking to do now is give themselves 4 a raise, as I see it. 5 MS. HARGIS: Judge, I don't think they've taken any 6 in-county mileage in this year. They did at the end of last 7 year. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I beg to differ with you. I've seen 9 the reports, and I've seen where they've shown it. 10 MS. HARGIS: Okay, I'm sorry. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Was that anger just then? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: No. No. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: We get that report, and he goes out 15 to Mountain Home and he charges off, you know, 90 miles worth 16 and he gets paid for it out of -- he gets the money anyway, I 17 guess. I don't know. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, several years ago we 19 took in-county travel, which was kind of a salary thing 20 anyway -- it's kind of a pay thing anyway, so we took that 21 and rolled it into the salary. Did that for -- did that for 22 me. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: For elected officials. Is that 24 correct? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 7-14-08 187 1 JUDGE TINLEY: J.P.'s, constables and so forth. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And for them as well? The 3 Extension Service people? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: They have always had separate travel 5 accounts. And I raised a ruckus last year -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Actually have two travel 7 accounts; they have a stock show account and a travel account 8 they use to -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, now they got the 4-H travel 10 account. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They got multiple travel 12 accounts. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: And they asked for mileage 14 reimbursement on in-county, and I said we're not doing that. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I agree with you. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: But they have these travel accounts, 17 and their explanation to me as to why they needed these is 18 because, well, they were effectively -- they weren't 19 consolidated like elected officials were years ago, and these 20 were really just, quote, part of their salary. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I see what you're 22 saying, yeah. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: And if they're part of their salary, 24 quote, unquote, I don't want to look too kindly on giving 25 them a salary increase in the middle of the budget year and 7-14-08 188 1 calling it something else. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pass on it? Have Mr. Walston 3 come in? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe that's -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Again. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Especially as he hasn't spent 8 the money yet. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: He spent some of it. The 4-H is 10 overdrawn almost $700. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, anyway, I'll withdraw -- 12 I'll pull this one bill till next meeting. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question or discussion? 16 All in favor, signify by raising your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Do you have any 21 late bills? 22 MS. HARGIS: No, sir. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Monthly reports? I've been 24 presented with monthly reports for Constable, Precinct 1; 25 Constable, Precinct 4; Constable, Precinct 3; County Clerk, 7-14-08 189 1 both general and trust funds; J.P., Precinct 3; J.P. 3, an 2 amended report; J.P. 4; District Clerk; and J.P. 2. Do I 3 hear a motion that those reports be approved as presented? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 7 indicated. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 8 motion, indicate by raising your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Any reports from 13 Commissioners in connection with their committee or liaison 14 assignments? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Airport Board, 3 o'clock. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I thought y'all just did 18 that at noon. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Library Board tomorrow 20 afternoon at 4:00. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I thought you did that 22 yesterday. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Nothing. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Take that as a no. Any reports from 25 elected officials? 7-14-08 190 1 MR. EMERSON: Just -- I'm going to give y'all one 2 brief word. Working closely with Jannett's staff and Judge 3 Brown's staff, we've got our movement in County Court at Law 4 up to 110 percent here to date, so we're eating up all the 5 old cases and staying up with our docket. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Good for you. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the corollary to that is, on 10 the issue of jail overcrowding, it may be we need to look 11 elsewhere. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Maybe you can -- maybe 13 you can enlighten some of those on the district level to 14 follow the same procedures and processes that y'all are doing 15 to move these cases through. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One big difference with County 17 Court, one day a month to one day a week. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just talking about 19 processes and procedures that may be able to be used 20 upstairs. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And related to that, the 22 court collections, it looks like -- of course, you can't get 23 a real live report out of this computer program, but the best 24 they can, it looks like about a 10 percent increase for the 25 two months. 7-14-08 191 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm glad you're staying on 2 top of it. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm not staying on top 4 of it, but I do kind of take a peek at it every once in a 5 while. They're doing very well. Very well. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: All they needed was some 7 training and -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tender loving care. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any department heads have any 10 reports? We have a citizen's report from Mr. Von Evans. 11 MR. EVANS: I am Von Evans again, 211 Von Trail. I 12 -- about three years ago, there was a very interesting 13 article that came out in the Texas Monthly magazine about a 14 fellow and his family that moved here from somewhere else. 15 Not knowing Texas very well, obviously, he bought some land. 16 He put an 8-foot fence around 5 acres, and then called the Ag 17 Extension Service and asked them how many cattle he could run 18 on his ranch. That's rather humorous to us, but it doesn't 19 take them long to figure out that all they've got to do is 20 get sheep or goats or some other domestic livestock and put 21 on that land and then apply for, after a five-year period, 22 and receive agricultural exemption. Now, the fact about 23 agricultural exemption is the tax appraisal district doesn't 24 follow -- they -- they've satisfied the need; they get their 25 exemption and that's a done deal. Now, the way they do 7-14-08 192 1 follow-up is they send them a questionnaire every other year 2 to fill out, to ask them if they're still in agricultural 3 endeavors, and if they say yes, okay, that's fine. 4 The -- the exemption is thereby also sold with the 5 property, so if a person obtains an agricultural exemption 6 and they sell it, then they sell it. And they sell it -- 7 such as the property nearby that's been sold four times had 8 an agricultural exemption when I moved there, and each of the 9 subsequent owners of the property have had an agricultural 10 exemption and never had an animal on the property. So, 11 again, this is sort of overlooked, and obviously somebody is 12 fudging on the little record that they're supposed to file 13 every other year. I -- you know, my property, I'm paying 14 $1,300 approximately in school taxes, and $400, $450 in 15 county taxes, and I've only got 15 acres of land, no fence, 16 no agricultural exemption or anything. But according to 17 public records -- I looked it up and found that there's one 18 piece of property here locally that's worth a million and a 19 half dollars. $1.5 million, and they're paying about -- 20 approximately $300 a year in total county and school taxes. 21 This doesn't seem quite right, unless they're involved in 22 agricultural endeavors. I agree with that; I have no quarrel 23 whatsoever with people who are actually involved in 24 agricultural endeavors, because I know it's an iffy thing at 25 best. But those people who have agricultural exemptions and 7-14-08 193 1 property -- and reportedly, there's another piece of property 2 that's worth, like, two and a half million dollars, and 3 they're paying less than $1,000 a year in total taxes. This 4 doesn't -- doesn't seem right to me somehow or another. 5 Okay. 6 So, I have told the -- the fellow at the appraisal 7 district, I said, "You may be complicit in tax fraud." And 8 he said, "What do you mean?" I said, "If you are in 9 agricultural endeavors, if you're in an agricultural 10 business, thereby being eligible for this agricultural 11 exemption, then you must file a profit and loss statement 12 with the Internal Revenue Service, and if you do not do so, 13 you're in violation of I.R.S. laws. And if you're not 14 requiring him or them, whoever, to file with you a profit and 15 loss statement to insure that they are actually in 16 agricultural endeavors, then, in my opinion, you're complicit 17 in tax fraud and could be charged with such." So, I think 18 that the County is -- in a sense, there are tax dollars that 19 belong to this county that are being stolen by people who are 20 involved in what I consider to be tax fraud, okay? The -- 21 the guy like to have choked when I told him that. "Well, we 22 send out the questionnaire." I said, "I don't think that's 23 quite appropriate." So -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Did you report to -- to the 25 appraisal district this neighbor that you mentioned that 7-14-08 194 1 hadn't had an animal on the property for the last four 2 owners? 3 MR. EVANS: No, sir, I did not report them. But I 4 know where they live. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Why not? 6 MR. EVANS: Well, good question. I could do that. 7 In fact, there's several people in my community that have 8 agricultural exemptions because they have a fence around 9 their property. Say, you know, you've got a fence -- a 10 4-foot fence around your property, and you've got domestic 11 animals. After a period of five years, you can get an 12 agricultural exemption. Then after a five-year period, you 13 could change the agricultural exemption -- you can convert 14 that into a wildlife exemption, and do away with your 15 livestock and simply put deer feeders out there. Well, who 16 in Kerr County doesn't have a deer feeder? You know? I 17 mean, everybody does. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have one. 19 MR. EVANS: Well, I've got five. I made up for you 20 guys. But the -- but the thing is -- no, I did not report 21 it. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've got to go. 23 MR. EVANS: I tell you what, I could put on my 24 little Sherlock Holmes outfit, and that little piece of 25 property there is only -- only 10 acres, okay? But, you 7-14-08 195 1 know, it's a matter of public record. I could turn things 2 upside down with cases such as that. 3 (Commissioners Letz and Williams left the courtroom.) 4 - - - - - - 5 JUDGE TINLEY: When they did away with the 50 6 percent income requirement -- generate more than 50 percent 7 of your livelihood from agricultural or livestock-type 8 pursuits, I think that's when the abuse started with the -- 9 with the ag exemption. But -- 10 MR. EVANS: Right. Well, at one time -- at one 11 time here in Kerr County, you had to have a minimum of 12 20 acres. And I found out -- my son had a ranch up there in 13 Johnson County, and -- and I helped him go about getting his 14 ag exemption up there, because he was raising livestock. And 15 -- and I found out that in Johnson County, you had to have 16 5 acres. So, okay. I called and asked them -- I think it's 17 5 acres in Kerr County that you can actually obtain an 18 agricultural exemption. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know. 20 MR. EVANS: With 5 acres, I believe. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the wildlife 22 exemption, it's a little more than just a deer feeder. You 23 have to provide coverage and water and -- 24 MR. EVANS: You would -- you have to have water and 25 tree feeders where they're not just on a timer, but where 7-14-08 196 1 they can come in there and feed at any time they want. 2 But -- but, yeah, that's the -- I mean, the wildlife 3 exemption requirement. But should I, as a citizen, go about 4 my merry little way of finding out all these people that are 5 doing that? And they're taking our money. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Causing your share and my share to 7 be greater because they're not paying their fair share. 8 MR. EVANS: Absolutely. Absolutely are. So, I -- 9 I don't know what oversight you have of that, but I think 10 that -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That's all done through appraisal 12 district, as I mentioned earlier. 13 MR. EVANS: Yeah. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: We participate as a minority 15 participant. 16 MR. EVANS: Yeah. I thought maybe -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: In establishment of their budget. 18 We're obligated to use their figures. 19 MR. EVANS: I thought maybe you'd have some 20 oversight to see to it that they were going about -- making 21 all their ducks in a row, so to speak. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Not that I'm aware of. 23 MR. EMERSON: Not that I know of. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you aware of any general 25 oversight authority that we have? 7-14-08 197 1 MR. EMERSON: I believe they're independent, Judge. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Last I knew. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They have a board of 4 directors. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 6 MR. EVANS: Okay. Well, that's what I -- that's 7 all I had to say. That's what I wanted to volunteer to say. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Evans. Anything 9 else, gentlemen? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I just wanted to say 11 if you ever wanted to talk track and field, that guy right 12 there knows more than anybody in town. 13 MR. EVANS: I can tell you things. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't get started. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll be adjourned. 16 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 2:55 p.m.) 17 - - - - - - - - - - 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7-14-08 198 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 21st day of July, 2008. 8 9 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 10 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 11 Certified Shorthand Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7-14-08