1 2 3 4 5 6 7 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 8 Workshop 9 Monday, December 8, 2008 10 1:30 p.m. 11 Commissioners' Courtroom 12 Kerr County Courthouse 13 Kerrville, Texas 14 15 16 17 18 Kerr County Personnel Policy Handbook Update 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge 24 H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 25 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 On Monday, December 8, 2008, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop of 2 the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come to order with a 7 Commissioners Court workshop scheduled for this date and 8 time, Monday, December 8th, 2008, at 1:30 p.m. It is that 9 time now, so let's get started. The purpose of the workshop 10 is to participate in a workshop to update Kerr County 11 Personnel Policy Handbook. I think this necessarily involves 12 Ms. Hyde. 13 MS. UECKER: She's on her knees. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you praying for rain, 15 or just praying? 16 MS. HYDE: Praying. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Praying to get through this 18 meeting, probably. 19 MS. HYDE: The one that you have -- the one that 20 you have now has got all the changes that we made at the last 21 workshop, and the wording changes that Rex recommended and 22 the Sheriff recommended, and so there you have it. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sheriff recommended what? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: She just said the Sheriff, Rex, 25 and her are all on the same page today. 12-08-08 wk 3 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Say what? (Laughter.) 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which page is that? 3 MS. HYDE: Left field. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Left field. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sharing the same cell. 6 MS. HYDE: Commissioner Baldwin, what's "Buster's 7 last can"? That is too cute. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What have you been doing in 9 my truck? 10 MS. HYDE: I wasn't in your truck. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's -- did you see 12 it? 13 MS. HYDE: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's my washtub. 15 MS. HYDE: That is cute. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. It's Ernest Tubb on 17 one side, and on the other side is Buster's Last Can. It's 18 an old joke. I think it goes back to the Indian war, 19 actually. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You ought to get Mr. Luther 21 involved. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I hope that doesn't have a 24 historic value designation on it somewhere. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Tell us what we did with the 12-08-08 wk 4 1 sick leave. 2 MS. HYDE: We left it kind of sitting. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What page is sick leave? How 4 do you want to go through this, Ms. Hyde? Just kind of go 5 through page by page? 6 MS. HYDE: I was going to ask y'all. Could we 7 maybe, like, agree that the first section might be okay? Or, 8 you know, kind of do it in sections where we could, like, put 9 some to bed? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This historical, we can do 12 that, the history lesson. 13 MS. HYDE: I thought that some folks that are 14 getting hired aren't from here, so it would be kind of nice 15 if they knew a little bit about it. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 17 MS. HYDE: And that is cited properly off the -- 18 where I got it from. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we talk about Comfort being 20 the county seat? 21 MS. HYDE: I'm sorry? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: About Comfort being the 23 previous county seat of Kerr County. 24 MS. HYDE: I haven't read this in about a year, so 25 I have no idea. Does it say that in there? 12-08-08 wk 5 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It should. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I hope not. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It should, but probably 4 doesn't. Probably left it out. Did we talk about Faltin -- 5 MS. HYDE: Do you need to add that? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- being partners with Captain 7 Schreiner? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 9 MS. HYDE: I got Zanzenberg in there. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What do you got in Precinct 2 11 so far? Keep going. 12 MS. HYDE: I got Camp Verde. 13 MS. THOMPSON: You have Comfort in there. 14 MS. HYDE: I have Comfort in there? Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Cheryl. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you, Cheryl. 17 MS. HYDE: Yeah, 1880, Charles Armand Schreiner. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 19 MS. PIEPER: I think Page 15 is the first place 20 that you can't go any further without a couple of items from 21 the Court. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where do we start? Page 23 15? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 25 MS. HYDE: 1.15, performance appraisals. Right 12-08-08 wk 6 1 now, the only performance appraisals are going to be on the 2 five department heads -- appointed department heads. So, do 3 we want it where we're doing appraisals for employees once a 4 year? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Won't that be a function of 7 a department head to do that for his or her employees? Or 8 elected official? 9 (Ms. Hyde nodded.) 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I mean, the 11 position has always been that elected officials -- that it's 12 their department to do what they want. And, I mean, I don't 13 -- I think it's a little overstepping our role if we tell 14 them that they have to do appraisals. I think they should, 15 and I think the intent has been to encourage all employees to 16 have it. But beyond that, I don't want to set up -- 17 (Commissioner Baldwin's computer made a noise.) 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sorry. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Technology whiz. 20 MS. PIEPER: Buster must be searching the web. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we probably should 22 require that those who work for the Court, for those 23 department heads to do it. 24 (Cell phone rang.) 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somebody acknowledge whose 12-08-08 wk 7 1 it is. (Laughter.) 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Almost as bad as Looney 3 tunes. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the -- 5 MS. HYDE: That's why that last sentence is in 6 there, because that's not something that we can really say. 7 It just says that they're strongly encouraged. And like we 8 said, department heads is not just appointed; we agreed that 9 department heads is appointed and elected, and they're 10 strongly encouraged to set them up, yada, yada, yada, and do 11 them. 12 MS. UECKER: You might need a separate section to 13 require department heads, and encourage elected officials. I 14 do mine, but that doesn't mean everybody does. You do, don't 15 you? Rusty does. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The arrival of these -- 17 you're talking about copies of appraisal always arriving at 18 H.R. no later than September 30. That's a little late, 19 particularly if there's -- if there's some -- 20 MS. HYDE: Budget consideration? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- budget consideration, or 22 if a department head is thinking about asking for something 23 at budget time. So, maybe a month earlier? 24 MS. HYDE: Whenever y'all want them. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why can't we require department 12-08-08 wk 8 1 heads to do appraisals? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We can, but -- 3 MS. HYDE: Why are you looking at me? Which one 4 are you talking about? Appointed department heads? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm, you can. 6 MS. HYDE: Yeah, you can. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: You can't elected officials. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to 9 differentiate in this department heads or -- 10 MS. HYDE: We're just trying not to write 11 "appointed or elected officials" so many times. That's a 12 lot. That's a lot. 13 MS. UECKER: But there are some things where you're 14 going to have to separate department heads from elected 15 officials. 16 MS. HYDE: So, what do you guys want to say? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think department heads and 18 their -- you know, we do appraisals of department heads, and 19 department heads do appraisals of their staff separate, 20 period. We encourage elected officials to do appraisals for 21 their staff. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's pretty simple. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we -- I think, to me, 25 we can always refer to them as department heads and elected 12-08-08 wk 9 1 officials. But, to me, department heads report to the Court. 2 Elected officials are everybody else. 3 MS. HYDE: So, we encourage elected officials, that 4 last sentence, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, can't you tie it into 6 that date where you've got having it accomplished by 7 September 30? Let's move that date forward and use the 8 language that the Commissioner's suggesting for elected 9 officials and department heads, and encouraged to do so, and 10 have the reports in by -- 11 MS. HYDE: When would you want the annual 12 appraisals to be completed? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would think August 30th 14 at the latest. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would think -- I think you 16 need to do that before you get into the budget. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do too. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I'm talking 19 about. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Budget starts in June. I mean, 21 by the time we really start doing the work, and we ask, like, 22 our department heads to -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: June 30 ought to be good enough. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: June 30th. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: June 30. 12-08-08 wk 10 1 MS. HYDE: So, change it to June 30? Just make it 2 June 15th, and then be in there by June 30? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, okay. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- the previous page, Page 5 14, 1.14. 6 MS. HYDE: Hmm? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You changed that. The break of 8 service is -- you say 90 days. 9 MS. HYDE: It's -- this is 60. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now it says 60. Is there a 11 reason? Is there a -- 12 MS. HYDE: 'Cause y'all told me to. 13 MS. PIEPER: That was discussed last time. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That was the consensus we reached 15 last time. That was one of the few things that we finally 16 nailed down, wasn't it? 17 MS. HYDE: Multiple times, in big letters. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't make any difference. 19 Just seems like -- why do we even discuss it? But, anyway, 20 okay. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you going to lead us 22 through this thing, or are we just going to hop all over the 23 place? 24 MS. HYDE: Well, I didn't know if y'all were done. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hell, we just got here. 12-08-08 wk 11 1 What are you talking about, done? 2 MS. HYDE: So, 1.16 would be the same thing, then. 3 I mean, we can go ahead and do the job descriptions. 4 MS. UECKER: Yeah. 5 MS. HYDE: Okay, so that one's done. And then 6 classifications, that'll be -- that'll be ungrayed. 7 MS. UECKER: Un-what? 8 MS. HYDE: 1.17 -- ungrayed. We're going to talk 9 about it, 'cause they're kind of contingent upon 1.15. 10 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 11 MS. HYDE: And 1.18, that I think was -- that's a 12 piggy-back off of what you were trying to discuss this 13 morning, Commissioner Letz. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure is. 15 MS. HYDE: And, see, that -- that way, it doesn't 16 -- it doesn't continue. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The rewording, I think, is 18 appropriate that job class -- job duties and responsibilities 19 not be altered solely for the purpose of justifying salary 20 increases. 21 MS. HYDE: And that's grayed out, as Rex wanted it 22 reworded. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 24 MS. UECKER: Is the gray part the new wording? 25 Or -- 12-08-08 wk 12 1 MS. HYDE: No, this is to be reworded. Rex wants 2 that reworded. 3 MS. UECKER: Well, then Rex should reword it. 4 MR. EMERSON: My last meeting I went to was a year, 5 year and a half ago on this thing until you get to, like, 6 Page 50. So -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: You can remember when it was you 8 went to your last meeting? 9 MR. EMERSON: No. It was a long time ago. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay. 11 MS. UECKER: I was at that one, wasn't I? 12 MR. EMERSON: Yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That third paragraph under 14 1.18, you got a line. Is that supposed to be a line through 15 part of that sentence? Reclassified, transfer, et cetera, et 16 cetera, et cetera? Is that a line through that? 17 MS. HYDE: It shouldn't be. Disregard that line. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Disregard, okay. 19 MS. HYDE: I don't know why it did that. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Same question, go down to 21 1.20. 22 MS. HYDE: Well, that one -- 23 MS. UECKER: That one is. 24 MS. HYDE: That one is a line, and that was based 25 on what y'all said here. As long as it didn't impact the 12-08-08 wk 13 1 budget, promotions were up to the department heads or elected 2 officials. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And so the Commissioners 4 Court, in the budget process, puts "X" amount of dollars in 5 the budget for promotions, and then we're out of it, and 6 the -- not department head, but the elected official -- 7 MS. HYDE: Elected official. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- then determines who gets 9 that. Is there anything -- did we say anything anywhere 10 about you can't give it all to one person? Or you must give 11 it all to one person, or anything like that? 12 MS. HYDE: No, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's free -- free to do what 14 they want to. What does "PAC" stand for? 15 MS. HYDE: Personnel assignment change. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sorry? One more time. 17 MS. HYDE: Personnel assignment change. Everyone 18 fills those out. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, I'm not sure 20 I agree with what Buster just said. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: About allowing -- 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't think that's what 24 we're approving. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 12-08-08 wk 14 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're approving salary and 2 position schedules. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. We -- 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And like this morning, 5 something comes up and they -- a person that has a lot of 6 years quits, or is released; then you can take that money and 7 reassign and do some different things with it, is the way I 8 understand it. 9 MS. UECKER: I think that's different than this, 10 though, isn't it? Let's see. But -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't know anything about 12 promotions. We don't authorize promotions. Unless -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What do we call those things 14 we used to do? You would have a lump of money to give to an 15 employee that went above and beyond the call of duty. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Merit. 17 MS. UECKER: Merit. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A merit raise. That's what 19 I was referring to. 20 MS. UECKER: No, a merit is different from a 21 promotion. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Let's talk about it 23 for a minute. Talk to me about what the difference is 24 between -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Merit's on the same -- you're 12-08-08 wk 15 1 going up a number. I mean -- 2 MS. UECKER: Merit is 1.16. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, we're going to get to it 4 in a minute? 5 MS. UECKER: No, we've already done it. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Promotions are going up the 7 ladder. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This morning we did some 10 promotions. 11 MS. BOLIN: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And some merits. 13 MS. HYDE: And some merits. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And some merits. 15 MS. HYDE: You did both. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As I see it, a 14 to a 15 is a 17 promotion. 18 MS. HYDE: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A 14-1 to a 14-3 is a merit. 20 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 21 MS. UECKER: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Even though the pay may be the 23 same. 24 MS. UECKER: Description change or whatever. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or you can still adjust -- 12-08-08 wk 16 1 still carry the same pay. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tell me what a promotion is. 3 MS. HYDE: Promotion would be going from one grade 4 to the next grade. A 14 to a 15 would be a promotion. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And why would you do that? 6 MS. HYDE: Increased responsibilities. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 8 MS. HYDE: But a merit increase is more that it's 9 in the same grade, so it would be, like, a 14-1 to a 14-3 or 10 a 14-4. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 12 MS. HYDE: And that is not used to recognize 13 increased duties or responsibilities. That wouldn't be a 14 promotion. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's extraordinary 16 performance within the grade. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Above the call of duty. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: See, I don't think that -- I 19 think that if you're going to -- the fact that you can do it 20 within your budget -- say you have -- let's use the situation 21 we had today. You had a -- a 17-8 leave, so you have some 22 money there. I don't think you can go and take one of your 23 14's and push them up to a 15 just 'cause you have the money, 24 without coming to the Court, 'cause you're changing the 25 position schedule. To me, you can do a promotion from -- a 12-08-08 wk 17 1 clerk that's doing a great job and you want to promote to a 2 supervisor, you can do that and go across, but you can't add 3 a new position in your office. Does that make sense? 4 MS. HYDE: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They didn't do that this 6 morning. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know. Well, they kind of 8 did; they raised -- 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, they didn't add a new 10 position. They just went up on -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But they went up -- they 12 started out with two 14's, a 15, and a 17, and they ended up 13 with a 14 and a 15, a 16, and a 17. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They didn't add a position; 15 they replaced one at a lesser salary. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But they added -- if you look 17 at the schedule, she went from two 14's, a 16 -- or 15 and a 18 17, to a 14, a 15, a 16, and a 17. That's a -- that has to 19 come to the Court, in my mind, 'cause they -- she changed a 20 14 to a 16. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 22 MS. HYDE: So, what kind of language can you put in 23 there to cover that? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, to me, it's tied back 25 to the -- the position schedule that's approved. They can 12-08-08 wk 18 1 work within that schedule any way they want. 2 MS. HYDE: If they're going to modify a position -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If they're going to modify the 4 position schedule -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They can't modify the 6 schedule. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They can't. 8 MS. HYDE: Is there a disclaimer that we can put on 9 every single one of them? You have no idea what I'm talking 10 about? 11 MS. BOLIN: Is that what you considered that I did 12 this morning? 13 MS. HYDE: Something -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, because you ended up 15 with -- you started out with -- one of the 14's went up to a 16 higher level. 17 MS. BOLIN: Right, 'cause he took over a 18 supervisory position. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But your overall office did -- 20 you gained -- went from two 14's, a 15, and a 17, to a 14, 21 15, 16, and 17. 22 MS. BOLIN: Okay. So, even though I didn't 23 actually add a physical person, but just a grade changed, 24 that's -- okay. Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Increasing grade has to be done 12-08-08 wk 19 1 by the Court, 'cause that has long-term budget implications. 2 MS. HYDE: Is that what you want me to put? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I mean. I don't 4 know how you say it. 5 MS. UECKER: I think simple enough language would 6 be that if it has a -- 7 MS. HYDE: Budget ramifications, it needs to come 8 through the Court. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's not it, though, because 10 you can add someone for this year with no budget 11 implications, but it will next year, or it could. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Short or long term. 13 MS. UECKER: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Long term, it will. You can't 15 change the position schedule without getting Court approval. 16 MS. UECKER: But it may not do it the next year 17 either. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, because of the step -- 19 because the steps are varied. 20 MS. PIEPER: I'm completely confused on this now. 21 MS. HYDE: I'm just looking for -- 22 MS. UECKER: You're supposed to suggest stuff. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you something. 24 How -- like, if you -- first of all, are we putting, like, a 25 pot of money in the budget, and then the elected official 12-08-08 wk 20 1 comes along in the middle of the year and wants to promote 2 someone, then they have that money to promote without 3 permission from the Commissioners Court? 4 MS. HYDE: No, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where does the money come 6 from, then? How does that work? 7 MS. HYDE: A promotion -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So if you need new money, 9 you got to come through here. 10 MS. HYDE: That's right. If you need additional 11 money, it has to be approved. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 13 MS. HYDE: 'Cause it's not in the budget. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm happy with that. Now, 15 my other question, you get down the road a couple of years, 16 and you -- you can see where you promoted Sally Sue a couple 17 of steps, but goddog, I can't remember how that happened. 18 How did -- how did Sally Sue get from this point to this 19 point? So, what kind of records -- what kind of history do 20 you show -- without coming through here and getting in the 21 record, how do you -- how do you know how -- I'm not fussing, 22 I'm just -- 23 MS. PIEPER: The PAC forms. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm a stickler for getting 25 everything down on the record so we'll know in the future 12-08-08 wk 21 1 what happened. 2 MS. PIEPER: The PAC forms. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Huh? 4 MS. PIEPER: The P.A.C. forms. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The PAC forms. The P.A.C. 6 forms. 7 MS. UECKER: That's a form that says who the 8 employee is, what to change -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I know what it is. I just 10 got through asking the question. Okay. So, you're happy 11 with the PAC form being the -- being the record? 12 MS. HYDE: What we've said in most of these, and 13 maybe it's not underlined enough, is that, like, 14 performance-based merit increases, performance appraisals, 15 funds availability, and approval of Commissioners Court. I 16 think we're just needing a little bit of clarification with 17 how much. I mean, where does -- where does it go? I look at 18 it personally -- right now, how I'm doing it is, if there's a 19 change, if it's not in my position schedule -- let's say in 20 my office; we'll use my office. I have a part-timer, a 21 full-timer, and me. If I'm going to hire somebody -- let's 22 say my part-timer says, "Stick it, I'm gone," and I'm going 23 to hire somebody. Then if I'm going to hire a full-timer, I 24 need to come back, 'cause it's not there. If I'm going to 25 hire a part-timer at the same rate or lower, then I don't 12-08-08 wk 22 1 need to come. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just go do it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That doesn't deal with 4 promotion. 5 MS. HYDE: If I'm going to take and I want to go 6 from budget to budget, just like I did -- I wanted to raise a 7 grade; I got permission from the Court to do it during budget 8 process. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't we say something 10 to the -- something to the effect that promotions that have 11 departmental budgetary impact are subject to Commissioners 12 Court approval? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it says it now. 14 MS. UECKER: I think it says that. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why are we arguing about 16 this? (Laughter.) 17 MS. UECKER: I think the whole thing is, that 18 should not be struck out of -- that line should not be there 19 either. 20 MS. HYDE: Well, it says -- well, but, see, that 21 line was put in because at the last meeting, they said put it 22 in. And, no offense, Commissioner Letz, it was you. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How -- 24 MS. HYDE: Because you said it didn't need to come 25 through -- 12-08-08 wk 23 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I said -- well, what are you 2 saying I said? 3 MS. HYDE: I don't think that's what you meant. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I want that line in or out? I 5 don't think it needs to be there. 6 MS. HYDE: Sixteen, you said mark -- on Page 16, 7 where it says, All promotions are subject to the 8 Commissioners Court -- court approval, you had me mark it 9 out. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have any problem with 11 that not being there. I don't think it needs to be there. I 12 think it's above it that's the critical part. Has to be 13 within the position schedule and budget limits. You can't -- 14 you can't -- 15 MS. UECKER: It says that. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- that covers it, to 17 me. Because if you had your three people in your office, and 18 your 17 leaves, you can't hire an 18 -- at a Grade 18 without 19 getting Court -- changing that spot. 20 MS. HYDE: Even if -- even if my 17 would equal an 21 18, say, money? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can't do it. 23 MS. HYDE: That's still playing in the numbers. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, cannot change it. 25 MS. HYDE: In my opinion. 12-08-08 wk 24 1 MS. UECKER: I think it's okay the way it's 2 written. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I like the way it's written; 4 it's all right. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It tells you what you can't 6 do, doesn't tell you what you have to do. 7 MS. HYDE: Because it's kind of a gray area. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But any time that you need 9 new money, you got to -- that's the only time you're going to 10 come in here. 11 MS. HYDE: Or a promotion. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, promotion. 13 MS. HYDE: New money outside the budget. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think I go back to my 15 suggestion; it just ties it all together. The first 16 sentence, okay, because that tells you what you can't do. 17 Second sentence says any -- or promotions that have 18 budgetary -- departmental budgetary impact must be approved 19 by Commissioners Court. That ties the two together. 20 MS. HYDE: Kathy, can you read back what he just 21 said? 22 THE REPORTER: Not without my glasses. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The shorthand is in the 24 ditch today? 25 MS. HYDE: Oh, yeah. I got, "any promotions 12-08-08 wk 25 1 that..." 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay, let me see if I 3 understand what you're saying, then, Commissioner. Say I 4 have a sergeant that quits, and I'm going to promote one of 5 my deputies into that sergeant's position. Now, that 6 position's already Court-approved, okay? And a sergeant's 7 starting salary is already Court-approved. But because that 8 deputy has been there ten years -- maybe that sergeant had 9 only been there five years, all right? That deputy's going 10 to actually go into that position at a higher pay than that 11 sergeant that quit was making, because of his longevity. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're covered by the first 13 sentence. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. But then when I hire a 15 deputy, all right, it may actually -- to replace that one 16 that got promoted up, it should go down, you know, hopefully, 17 because of the longevity, and wouldn't have a long-term 18 budgetary impact. 19 MS. HYDE: I disagree with what you just said, sir. 20 Respectfully disagree, because if he has a sergeant at a 25.5 21 position, and then he has a deputy that is a 21.5-12, that's 22 higher than that 21 -- that 25.5. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 24 MS. HYDE: So that is outside the budget. That is 25 outside the position schedule. Therefore, it should come 12-08-08 wk 26 1 through Commissioners Court. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your explanation is a 3 little more explicit than his. 4 MS. HYDE: Because then, you know, we're touching 5 -- now we're touching the money. And if we touch the money, 6 it's got to be approved, right? I mean, you were the one 7 that taught me about the money thing. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Except that when you replace 9 the deputy now, you're not going to be at the 12 because of 10 the longevity; they're going to be a new deputy with the 11 county, so it's going to drop that way back down. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I rest my case. 13 MS. UECKER: It's okay the way it is. 14 MS. HYDE: Any promotions that -- I'll get with 15 Kathy. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think what it is silent 17 on is, in a promotion, do you keep your -- your step? That's 18 what it doesn't talk about. 19 MS. HYDE: Oh, that one will be a two-hour 20 discussion. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's where we always get hung 22 up. If you go from a 14-6 up to a 17, what -- do you go at 23 17-6 or a 17-1? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Don't go as a 6. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go as 17-1. 17-1. 12-08-08 wk 27 1 MS. UECKER: What I've done -- 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But in some cases, if you do 3 that, the salary's going to go down. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then you make an adjust -- 5 the Court makes an adjustment, bring it in at whatever it has 6 to be to keep the salary neutral, or a slight increase. But 7 I think that has to come to the Court. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: But you don't carry those -- you 9 don't carry those steps that you've earned through longevity 10 in the lower grade, no. 11 MS. HYDE: What we need to do that is, we have to 12 do some -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Need to say that -- 14 MS. HYDE: We need to do some education on the 15 difference between longevity and -- and grade enhancement. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought we did. 17 MS. HYDE: Because a lot of people's mind-set is 18 that their longevity is worth something. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I don't have a problem with 20 the longevity part of that going along. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: They will get the benefit of that 22 longevity when they don't take a pay cut if they go through a 23 grade increase. 24 MS. HYDE: Right. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Even though they may start at a 12-08-08 wk 28 1 lower step, they get the benefit -- they keep that longevity. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We protect it. We keep the 3 salary; we don't drop the salary. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't see it as an educational 5 problem. Maybe at the Sheriff's Office, but it's not 6 anywhere else. (Laughter.) 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's going to be a -- I can 8 see a lot of -- 9 MS. HYDE: Explain it to them, what -- how your 10 guys look at it, and gals. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They look at longevity as how 12 many years they've worked for this county. Doesn't matter 13 what position they're in. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what it is. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's how many years they've 16 worked for the county. That's the way I look at it, okay? 17 And, you know, if you take that away because you promoted 18 him, so you're now going to take that longevity away, that's 19 what you're doing. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How do you take it away? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're not taking it away. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because if they kept the 23 longevity -- if he got to a 12-6, okay? A 12-6, and the 6 is 24 because of longevity, and now you're going to promote him up 25 to a 15 -- these are just -- okay, so you go up to a 15. But 12-08-08 wk 29 1 you're taking that 6 away, and putting it back down to the 1. 2 The officers and the employees look at that as taking away 3 his longevity. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't agree with that. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because the 6 was the 6 longevity. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We don't take away the money. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Longevity is what you said 9 it is; that's the amount of time an individual has served 10 Kerr County. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. And the -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Regardless of his grade. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And the way -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Time in grade is the time 15 spent within a grade. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. The way the policy on 17 longevity that this Court has adopted reads is, you get one 18 step for every three -- for the -- you know, three years. 19 First one is one year, and then every three years after that, 20 you get a step, is verbatim what it says in that. So, now 21 they are up to six steps. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You couldn't get to six steps 23 'cause of longevity. Might be able to get four. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: May be four steps or whatever. 25 What I'm saying is -- 12-08-08 wk 30 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's an issue to you. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That is an issue. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: People say all these -- say 4 they're a 12-10. They say it's all longevity. Well, only 5 maybe three of those are longevity. 6 MS. UECKER: Well, regardless, but those three -- 7 and I tend to agree with Rusty that those three should be 8 given when they get promoted, because they're promoted not 9 because of their length of service; they're promoted because 10 they're getting extra job responsibilities. But they're 11 still -- they've still been employees for the county for that 12 period of time, so those three steps should come with them. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't mind the steps going, 14 but the merit -- the merits that are most of that step -- 15 MS. UECKER: We're talking about the longevities. 16 MS. HYDE: But you've also got -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know -- the employees, 18 I think, have forgotten that some of those other things are 19 not longevity. 20 MS. HYDE: Right. Goes to the education they got. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The education, all this other 22 stuff. Some of that stuff -- you know, I don't have a 23 problem with longevity being there, but that's it. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, the education, we could 25 get into the same issue on that. Because you do have 12-08-08 wk 31 1 licenses that they get, and the -- and, again, it may be a 2 wording as to how the County's policy is worded, but in your 3 longevity and your education policy, it directly refers to 4 those as "steps" in that step and grade, okay? So, if you're 5 giving them steps in that step and grade, and now you promote 6 somebody, the way it looks is, how come you're taking away 7 those steps if you make them go back down to the one? 8 MS. UECKER: Because of longevity. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because of longevity or their 10 education. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How about if we add another 12 section for -- call it reassignment, something like that? 13 'Cause, really, it could be promotion, or it could go either 14 way, up or down. 15 MS. HYDE: So, that's not like reclass? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, reclassification? 17 MS. HYDE: Do you want me to call it reassignment 18 or reclass? I mean -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It would be different from 20 reclassification. 21 MS. UECKER: There already is one on 22 reclassification, 1.18. 23 MS. HYDE: That's what I just said. He was talking 24 about -- 25 MS. UECKER: I think the key is going to be keeping 12-08-08 wk 32 1 a good record of what's merit and what's longevity. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I agree. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You got it. 4 MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm, or education. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you and Rusty's 6 argument, because I haven't heard the other side of it. I 7 haven't heard it been proved wrong yet. I agree with it. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's all -- this needs 9 to be clearly set out in 1.18, then. 10 MS. HYDE: Okay. So, we need to add in the 18 -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 'Cause this is probably one of 12 the bigger -- 13 MS. UECKER: I think you can just add a paragraph 14 addressing longevity increases. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Longevity, merit, and 16 education. I think you ought to address each one. Merits 17 are not -- 18 MS. UECKER: Yeah, merits do not. Longevities do. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Licensing may -- or education 20 may. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How hard is it to -- like, 22 if you had an employee that was an 18-7, to show how much of 23 that is school, how much of that is longevity, how much of 24 that is -- 25 MS. UECKER: Cost-of-living, even. Some of it 12-08-08 wk 33 1 could be cost-of-living. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How hard is that -- is that 3 a computer program? 4 MS. HYDE: No. We've kept up -- during the last 5 two years, we've put a lot of that together, based on going 6 through the different files that different people have. The 7 Sheriff has got all his, but we've got quite a bit of it, 8 because we've only been doing it since 2000, so it's not like 9 they can have multiple -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm saying. They 11 can't have -- 12 MS. HYDE: -- steps. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot of them take all this -- 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, it would be hard on a 15 lot of them to go back and try and show that, 'cause how are 16 you -- what are you going back to? If you take away -- 17 'cause the County redoes the step and grade, you know, deal 18 every year when there's cost-of-living. They just 19 reformulate the step and grade. So, if that employee started 20 ten years ago, okay, what was that step and grade ten years 21 ago? Is that what you're starting at, and looking at his -- 22 his longevity on that salary? 23 MS. HYDE: No, 'cause they didn't start till 2000 24 or 2001. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you started in 2000 -- or 12-08-08 wk 34 1 ten years ago, you can only have two. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just go back to the two steps 3 regardless of what the pay was. Say he's got two steps for 4 that, and he's got three steps for educational. Now you're 5 right back to what we were saying when I first started. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Two or three? 7 MS. HYDE: Three. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Is it the intent of the compensation 9 policy to pay an employee more than once for his longevity? 10 MS. HYDE: That sounds like a trick question, so 11 I'm going to ask you to repeat it again. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It goes right to the heart 13 of the issue. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: When you get a step -- when you get 15 a step for longevity, even after the first year, or third 16 year thereafter, -- 17 MS. HYDE: Right. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: -- you get some more money. 19 MS. HYDE: Okay, here's my argument. That he 20 says -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You 22 get some more money. 23 MS. HYDE: Yes, one time. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. Now, if you then reclassify 25 that employee to a different grade -- 12-08-08 wk 35 1 MS. HYDE: Right. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: -- and you find the step within that 3 grade which is closest to his then current pay grade -- 4 MS. HYDE: We're double-dipping. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- or one just a little bit higher, 6 but not decreased, but then you add longevity steps, you're 7 paying him for that again. 8 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. That 10 goes right to the heart of the issue. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Then -- then four, five years later, 12 that employee then goes -- let's say six years later, so that 13 we've got two longevity steps there, for which that 14 employee's been compensated, you reclassify that employee up 15 to, say, a 19. 16 MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm. They get it again. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: But at a 19 -- at a grade -- at a 18 step which is comparable to whatever it is over here in, say, 19 17. 20 MS. HYDE: Right. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Are we going to add those again? 22 We're going to pay for them a third time. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think so. I think your 24 math's wrong. 25 MS. UECKER: No, you don't -- 12-08-08 wk 36 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think -- because where's 2 your promotion, then? 3 MS. HYDE: Here's a real simple one. I'm a 14; I 4 start out as a 14-1. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: If you're going to promote, you're 6 going to carry them up to that new grade, and there's a 7 degree of additional responsibility. What you're doing is 8 approving a new position, and you can say, well, instead of 9 bringing them on board, which would be level pay, let's say 10 17-2, we're going to bring them on as a 17-4. That's his 11 promotion. Because now he needs to be in the grade 17 12 because of the type of duties. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. If -- one way of -- 14 maybe this is what you're getting at, which I can agree with. 15 If he's a 14-6 now, okay? And you want to promote him to a 16 17, you find what grade is equivalent to the 14-6. It may be 17 a 17-2. 18 MS. HYDE: That's right. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And you put him there, and 20 then the salary difference between a 14-1 and a 17-1, the 21 starting, that's your promotion salary that would you tack 22 onto the 17-2. 23 MS. HYDE: No. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Not necessarily. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: How do you -- otherwise, 12-08-08 wk 37 1 there's no promotion. He's at the same pay. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: It's determined by the Court how 3 they want to bring that individual on. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think that's right. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: At a -- 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So, if I promote a deputy up 7 to a sergeant, I got to come to the Court to determine what 8 salary that deputy is going to make? Even though my 9 sergeants have a starting salary? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: If you're going to bring him on at 11 more than a 25-1, you do. 12 MS. UECKER: Okay, let me -- 13 MS. HYDE: Can I try once? Because where the 14 argument tends to start is right there. If -- if you have a 15 25-1 -- where's the green book? So that we're talking real 16 apples. The deputies are 21 -- 21.5's. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm just playing with numbers. 18 MS. HYDE: 21.5. So, if you bring in a new deputy 19 at 21.5, it's 38,139, okay? When you go to sergeant, a 20 sergeant starts out as a 25, which is 45,370 bucks. So, if 21 that deputy has been here and has made it to a Step 5 because 22 of merit -- excuse me, because of education and because of -- 23 of longevity -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's say it's all longevity. 25 MS. HYDE: They're at 42. They're still getting an 12-08-08 wk 38 1 increase. Where the Sheriff and I have disagreed is that if 2 a guy is at a 21.5-8, and you take him all the way up to a 3 25-8, that's a heck of a lot more of an increase than Tom, 4 Dick, or Harry that's down here at a 5. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think it should go to 6 -- I don't think -- I think you should carry the longevity 7 only. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, what I was trying to say 9 a while ago, and I kind of -- I really -- the difference 10 between a 20 -- what were we using? 11 MS. HYDE: 21.5. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A 21.5 and a sergeant is what? 13 25. 14 MS. HYDE: 25. 43,3 -- 45,370. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. Now, if you take -- 16 he's not getting a promotion. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not getting a promotion. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: He's just moving up to a 19 grade, but he's not getting a promotion. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Promotion means dollars. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Between the 21-5 and the 25-5, 22 you need to add that difference. You can bring him up where 23 his salary's the same, but then you need to add the 24 difference between the two grades onto that for it to be a 25 promotion. 12-08-08 wk 39 1 MS. UECKER: Can I give you an example that might 2 simplify it? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go ahead. 4 MS. UECKER: Say I've got a -- let's say I've got a 5 15-1 position that has opened up, okay? I can either hire 6 from the outside someone to take that 15-1, or someone within 7 that's been with the county for 10 years at a 12-5. And if 8 they're at the 5 because of longevity, okay, so if I decide 9 -- my decision's going to be, okay, if I bring the person 10 within who is a loyal county employee at an 15-1, or the new 11 person who has never worked for the county at a 15-1, this 12 person that I've just promoted from within has just lost 13 their longevity. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: No. If he's a 12-5, you go up to 15 the 15 and find out the comparable -- 16 MS. HYDE: A 13 -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: -- step within that. 18 MS. HYDE: A 13-5 is equal to a 15-1. So, if 19 that's equal to a 15-1, what we've done -- not with the 20 Sheriff's, but with y'all's -- is that we look at it. Okay. 21 This person is already here. This is what's comparable, and 22 we're wanting a 2.5 or a 5 percent increase. 23 MS. UECKER: Then it's not a promotion. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what we're saying. 25 It's not -- you've moved it up, but there's no promotion. 12-08-08 wk 40 1 MS. UECKER: They can't spend a 15. If they're 2 getting -- 3 MS. HYDE: You're not listening to me, Linda. If 4 they come from here and they go up to here, that's a 5 promotion, and we've come back -- we've come back to the 6 Court and asked them for increases for those people. 7 (Several people speaking at once. The court reporter asked everyone to speak one at a time.) 8 9 MS. HYDE: We have never had a promotion that comes 10 up exactly the same. It's -- that's not what -- 11 MS. UECKER: That's what we're talking about, 12 though. That's what they're saying. 13 MS. HYDE: I don't think that's what they're 14 saying. 15 (Commissioner Baldwin left the courtroom.) 16 MS. UECKER: Yeah, you're saying it should go back 17 to the 15-1 or whatever the -- let's keep the salary 18 constant. That's what the Judge is saying. I mean, I 19 disagree. I think you need to raise it up to whatever the -- 20 what Rusty is saying, up the differential. It is a 21 promotion. 22 MS. HYDE: But it maintains that differential at a 23 specific -- right. They're not doing it from grade to grade, 24 which will be different, depending on where they came from. 25 'Cause that grade where they came from, if they were a 15, or 12-08-08 wk 41 1 a 20 versus a 21, that's a lot of difference, and I showed 2 you that. One guy would get $12,000. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree with that part; it can 4 get too much because of however they are in the steps. And 5 that's why I'm saying you bring them up comparable, okay? 6 So, they're at a 15-5, right? They come up to a 17, which 7 would -- comparable would be a 17-2. But now you take the 8 base difference between a 15 and a 17, the base starting 9 salary difference for a one. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Five percent. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whatever that is, and add it 12 to that two. 13 MS. HYDE: And that's it. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. And then -- so that 15 would put him -- if it's 5 percent, it would put him at a 16 15-4 -- or, you know, 17-4. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's two steps. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Two steps, 'cause of that base 19 step. That's the promotion. The 5 percent is the promotion. 20 The other got him, you know, unilaterally across and up to 21 that grade. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because of increased 23 responsibilities. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because of increased 25 responsibility, right. He got his long -- his longevity 12-08-08 wk 42 1 stayed, because he went up to the 2. Okay, he went -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He went up -- 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Went up laterally to the same 4 salary, and then the difference in the base is what was his 5 promotion. 6 MS. HYDE: Right. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would agree with that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm cool with that. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to make it mandatory, 11 two steps? Or mandatory one step or greater, if -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, depends on how far -- 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Depends on what the promotion 14 is. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just from a 14 to a 15, it's 16 one. If it's a 14 to an 18, it's three. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whatever the base difference 19 is. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. I'm with you now. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I got no problem with that. But -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that's a whole lot different 24 than -- than every time you go up to another grade, that you 25 count up their -- 12-08-08 wk 43 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: -- longevity step increases and 3 stack them on top. 'Cause you'd be paying them over and over 4 and over again. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. 6 MS. HYDE: So, let me just make sure I understand 7 this. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Write that down. 9 MS. HYDE: I'm going to get her notes. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Employees who are promoted -- 11 MS. HYDE: Like, from a 14 to a 16 is 5 percent. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: -- in grade will receive the step 13 increases equivalent to -- 14 MS. HYDE: The difference in grades. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the increase from the grade from 16 which they're being promoted to which they are promoted. 17 MS. HYDE: Which will be 5 percent in that case. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Example. One step, 2 and a half. 19 Two grades, 5 percent. Three grades, 7 and a half percent. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go up, keep the salary neutral, 21 then you add the -- the number of step increases you're 22 talking about. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay, I'm with you now. 24 MS. UECKER: That's what we were saying. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's right. That's the 12-08-08 wk 44 1 right thing to do. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Not what I heard. What I heard was 3 every time you get a promotion, you figure up how many steps 4 they had for longevity and you -- 5 MS. UECKER: To start with, though. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a compound effect. 7 MS. UECKER: From the one, is what I was talking 8 about. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 10 MS. UECKER: From one, which is basically what 11 you're saying. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we all know where we're going 13 now. 14 MS. UECKER: Yeah. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Fairly simple. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Amazingly. 18 MS. BOLIN: Okay, now I have a question. Based on 19 what we just decided, should I have brought what I brought 20 this morning to the Court? 21 MS. HYDE: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, 'cause you went out of 23 the salary schedule -- position schedule. I mean, not 24 salary; you went out of the position -- you changed your 25 position schedule. That took Court action. 12-08-08 wk 45 1 MS. BOLIN: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You didn't have to come with 3 all the numbers. All you have to say is, "I want to realign 4 it; I want to have this position schedule," and how you fill 5 them. 6 MS. BOLIN: Oh, okay. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As long as you don't have any 8 budget impact, that won't make any difference. 9 MS. BOLIN: Okay. 10 (Commissioner Baldwin returned to the courtroom.) 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's the score? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Six to nothing. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Zero-zero. 14 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 15 MS. HYDE: But you still want me to -- okay. Do we 16 still need to put -- do you still want something to go in 17 there about longevities, merit, and education? 18 MS. UECKER: Clarify -- 19 MS. HYDE: What is -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What do you want on longevity, 21 merit, and education? What type of explanation do you want 22 on that? 23 MS. HYDE: What are y'all looking for on that? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've already forgotten that 25 one. 12-08-08 wk 46 1 MS. HYDE: I have too. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We've got a policy in place. 3 MS. HYDE: Sorry? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a policy in place for 5 longevity and education. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That came in '99, was it? 8 MS. UECKER: Somewhere in there, but I thought he 9 -- I thought you were wanting something like explaining -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What were we talking about, 11 Linda. 12 MS. UECKER: Well, explaining what qualifies, 13 how -- how the merit increases do not go with the -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Merit increases. 15 MS. UECKER: Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I forgot what it was. 17 MS. UECKER: Well, merit increases are not 18 included, do not follow the promotion. Longevity does at the 19 percentage of what that is. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we can be -- we don't 21 need this section any more. 22 MS. HYDE: We don't need that in, right. I can 23 mark that out, 'cause we just put that in. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Changed how we do it. 25 MS. HYDE: On Page 17, Rex, are you okay on 17? 12-08-08 wk 47 1 Are you okay on this, on Open Records? 2 MR. EMERSON: No. 3 MS. HYDE: 'Cause I've got 552.117. 4 MR. EMERSON: Under 552.024, Subsection D, you 5 cannot change it. You either declare it up front or you 6 don't. 7 MS. HYDE: Okay. So, where I've got the line 8 marked out, I'm okay. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Page 17, 1.24. 10 MR. EMERSON: Yes. 11 MS. HYDE: Okay. All right. So, 1.24 on telephone 12 and address, where I've got the lines through the last 13 sentence, that would stand. Rex checked that, and that's 14 under -- 15 MR. EMERSON: Yeah 552.024 does not have an 16 allowance to come back later and declare. You either do it 17 in the first two weeks or you don't. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about us grandpas? 19 MS. HYDE: Well, if we change the policy, then 20 everyone will get 14 days to make a disclosure, right? Based 21 upon the policy. 22 MR. EMERSON: No, this is a state statute, sorry. 23 A state policy. 24 MS. HYDE: Well, because there's not any paperwork 25 prior -- about any of this, they would have the opportunity 12-08-08 wk 48 1 to at least to put something in, right? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Maybe longer than two weeks. 3 They don't -- 4 MR. EMERSON: All I can tell you is, put it in the 5 policy, and if somebody wants to submit it, it will get 6 challenged at A.G. 7 MS. HYDE: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Everyone knows where we live 9 anyway. My phone number's in the phone book. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, mine too. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If anybody's ever looking 12 for me, I just tell them to call Bruce. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Evidently. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: He always knows where you are, 15 doesn't he? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 17 MS. HYDE: 1.26, Rex suggested the second sentence 18 be reworded. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that the language that Rex 20 thought needed to be there, or is that the language that he 21 thought needed to be changed? 22 MS. HYDE: Needed to be reworded. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What should it be reworded to? 24 MS. HYDE: I don't know. 25 MR. EMERSON: I got this thing back this morning, 12-08-08 wk 49 1 guys. Sorry. 2 MS. HYDE: It's been a long -- it's been a long 3 time. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Doesn't the state have that 5 specific language? I mean, very similar to this? 6 MS. PIEPER: It does with elected officials. 7 MS. HYDE: It does for elected, but not for others. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: He'll furnish you the language on 9 that. 10 MS. HYDE: Okay. 11 MS. UECKER: If we adopt it, it could say the same 12 thing as the elected official thing does. If the Court 13 adopts it. 14 MS. HYDE: Okay. So, Section 1 is done. Page 20, 15 separation. This is -- this is different than what was in 16 the book. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why is the dark -- does that 18 mean there's a change? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: It's added. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All brand-new stuff? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Added, or needs to be 22 decided. 23 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: We need to put in there about being 25 in the ditch? 12-08-08 wk 50 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think this is the place to 2 put it in there. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: We don't like being in the ditch. 4 You can take a hike. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Changing shovels. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is there anybody down here 7 that Buster's not related to? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In Precinct 4, no. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, not me. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's one. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I was north of the Rhine out 12 there -- 13 MS. HYDE: That's grayed not because there's 14 anything wrong, just that it needs to be looked at and make 15 sure there's no -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the part about vacation time 17 and comp time, don't we really need to wait to finalize that 18 until we finish 5.06 and some of these others that we're 19 talking about possibly changing those policies? It says -- 20 like right now under, you know, employees receive 21 compensation for unused comp -- we'll go to vacation. 22 Receive unused vacation. 23 MS. UECKER: Vacation would change anyway. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We had talked about changing 25 that whole vacation system. Don't we need to decide that 12-08-08 wk 51 1 first? That's not this section. Is that -- 2 MS. HYDE: No, it says go to Outline 5.06. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to go to 5.06 4 before we can do this page. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, before we move off of 6 this page, I have a question. 2.01, the line that you have 7 that the Texas Payday Act does not apply to Kerr County? 8 MS. HYDE: Does -- no, it does not. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does every employee that 10 relates to your office for any reason know what the Texas 11 Payday Act is? 12 MS. HYDE: Probably not. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Should we not have some -- 14 MS. HYDE: See Appendix D. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- explanation? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just decide what the -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or the citation of law? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just put the citation of it. 19 They if want to look it up, they can look it up on the 20 internet. I don't know what it is. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Requires that they be paid within -- 22 MS. HYDE: Fourteen days. That 14-day crap. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably less than that. Whatever. 24 MS. HYDE: Depends on whether they're -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Paid weekly. 12-08-08 wk 52 1 MS. HYDE: Them or us, whether they're paid 2 biweekly, semimonthly, or weekly. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know what the Sheriff's even 4 doing here. Might be a surprise to him. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He doesn't have anything 6 better to do. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That sounds fine with me, 8 Judge. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Aren't you going to write your whole 10 deal? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, we can. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Being as his is different. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. Eva and I have agreed 14 that the policies in this that affect employee benefits -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait just a second, Rusty. 16 Can you hear him all right? I want to get all of this on 17 record. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. The policies that are 19 included in the County's overall manual affecting employee 20 benefits or, you know, any kind of budgetary compensation, I 21 will adopt those policies and put them verbatim inside my 22 employees' policy manual, okay? But we will not have this 23 manual. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That was quoted on the -- 25 at 2:32 p.m. on the 8th day of December in the year of our 12-08-08 wk 53 1 Lord 2008. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But -- because a whole lot of 3 this won't, but it's the ones that her and I agree that are 4 benefits that should; compensation, vacation, you know, sick 5 leave, insurance, that type of stuff, or -- and that's why 6 the promotion -- salary lines I spoke of, 'cause that will 7 affect promotions. 8 MS. HYDE: And we'll -- we'll agree on those, and 9 they'll be wrote up so that everybody knows which ones they 10 are. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does that ball keep you -- 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I like making her work her 13 stress ball. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you managing your 15 stress, Ms. Hyde? 16 MS. HYDE: Absolutely. Today I'm managing stress. 17 'Cause if he makes me mad, I'll just throw the ball at him. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't put a rock in it. 19 MS. HYDE: That way we can keep up with it, because 20 it's going to take a whole lot to try to put two different 21 ones together. Like, if ours is two and his is six, we still 22 have to make sure that it's in there. Because if he gets 23 blindsided, or I get blindsided, either one, then we're not 24 good, 'cause it's the employees that will lose on it. That's 25 not anyone's intent. 12-08-08 wk 54 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you want to go to 5.06? 3 MS. HYDE: Not really, but okay. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that where we're going, 5.06? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Page? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 54. 7 MS. HYDE: 52. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 5.08, sorry. 52. 9 MS. HYDE: What 5.06 says is, how do you pay 10 overtime and compen -- compensation? Compen -- compen -- 11 MS. BOLIN: Compensatory. 12 MS. HYDE: Yeah, that one. And this is not, except 13 employees are compensated for hours actually worked, in 14 accordance with the law. So, in lieu of cash payment for 15 overtime, compensatory time may be allowed. The calculation 16 of overtime compensation does not include any type of 17 allowance or incentive pay or longevity pay; i.e., education, 18 longevity, or prior salaries. So, you've got people like the 19 Sheriff's Office and Juvenile Detention that work 28 days, 20 171 schedules, before their time and a half begins, so that 21 is also outlined here. But overtime compensation is paid to 22 all nonexempt employees in accordance with federal and state 23 wage and hour restrictions. It's based upon actual hours 24 worked. So, only hours worked in excess of 40 during a work 25 week will be counted. Except -- this is where people get 12-08-08 wk 55 1 confused -- if they take vacation time -- say we're looking 2 at this week, okay? Or even better, Thanksgiving weekend, 3 okay? For Thanksgiving, we were off on Thursday and Friday, 4 so we had some people that worked Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, 5 but on those days they worked nine hours a day, so nine times 6 three is 27. Plus their eight and eight would, in their 7 mind, put them into overtime. Nay, nay, nay, because those 8 two days are holiday pay. They have to work -- work -- 9 actually work 40 hours, and then it goes into overtime, and 10 there's been some confusion about that. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, what if they work three 12 nine-hour days and then utilize accumulated sick leave on the 13 other two days of the week for eight hours? 14 MS. HYDE: No, they don't get overtime. 15 MS. PIEPER: Actual hours worked. 16 MS. HYDE: Actual hours worked. 17 MS. UECKER: I think everybody understands that. I 18 know everybody in my office does. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mine do. They don't like it, 20 but they understand it, after eight years of dealing with 21 them. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we say here exception, 23 vacation and sick leave shall be counted as hours worked. 24 Which tells me, in the example you just quoted, we got three 25 hours overtime that's due somebody. 12-08-08 wk 56 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Where is that? 2 MS. UECKER: No, 'cause it's holiday. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I brought back -- 4 MS. HYDE: Vacation. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- two days of sick leave that they 6 were out. 7 MS. HYDE: That's a line. That's a line. That's a 8 line. It's missing a line if you don't have a line in it. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I don't have a line. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where are we? What are we 11 canceling? 12 MS. HYDE: If you look on Page 52, where it says 13 exception. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Shall be counted as hours worked, 15 the parenthetical. It goes out, right? 16 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 MS. UECKER: Where? 19 MS. HYDE: Page 52. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second paragraph -- or second 21 paragraph up. 22 MS. HYDE: Should be a line through that. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Three lines from the bottom of 24 the second paragraph. 25 MS. HYDE: And then on 53, it explains it, Judge. 12-08-08 wk 57 1 If you take a paid absence and hours actually worked exceeds 2 40, then the employee -- this is what is in the book right 3 now -- the employee accrues comp time at a straight-time, 4 hour-for-hour basis for each hour in excess of 40. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Paid absences -- okay. So, 6 in the example that I just gave you a moment ago, would there 7 be three hours of -- of compensatory time? 8 (Ms. Hyde shook her head negatively.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Huh? 10 MS. HYDE: Hmm-mm, nothing. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Well -- 12 MS. HYDE: I've got -- on this, I've got a 13 question. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: If -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Read the first full paragraph 16 on Page 53. 17 MS. HYDE: Right. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: If the combination of any employee's 19 paid absences and hours actually worked -- remember, he 20 worked 27 hours -- 21 MS. HYDE: Right. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the first three days, and he's 23 got two days, eight hours paid absences. Exceeds 40 hours in 24 any -- in one work week, he's got 43, doesn't he? 25 MS. HYDE: Right. 12-08-08 wk 58 1 JUDGE TINLEY: The employee accrues compensatory 2 time on -- at straight-time hour basis, each hour in excess 3 of 40. So, we do have three hours there. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Going to have to take out that 5 paid absences. 6 MS. HYDE: It needs to be taken out. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The whole paragraph comes out. 8 MS. HYDE: Yeah. 9 MS. HARGIS: Yeah, the whole paragraph. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Keep reading, Judge. We can 12 get -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's on Page 53? 14 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 MS. HYDE: The next paragraph on that page, we kind 18 of need to get some agreement on. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: The number of pay periods you can 20 carry forward? 21 MS. HYDE: Right. Most of the folks here -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Ninety days. Didn't we say 23 quarterly? 24 MS. HYDE: Well, I think it was -- kind of had 25 turned into however people wanted to do it, and most folks 12-08-08 wk 59 1 have been kind of trying to work with me, and that's two pay 2 periods, or 30 days. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 4 MS. HYDE: But, you know, what do we want? Because 5 this -- this can get tricky when you start having comp time. 6 And I use the example, if you keep your comp time, just like 7 anything else, to carry over to the new year, then you need 8 it at a higher rate versus what it was intended or what you 9 earned it at. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, doesn't all that have 11 to do with -- use of taking off compensatory time, doesn't 12 that have to do with the department head's ability to 13 maintain a schedule and his workload? If we got a lot of -- 14 bunch of people off on vacation or other things, or it's a 15 holiday period, you're not going to give two or three people 16 off compensatory time, run your overtime up. So, this just 17 doesn't make allowance for that. It should be at the 18 discretion of the department head, working in conjunction 19 with the individual. Because there are other factors that 20 influence this. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But if you don't have a line in 22 the sand, they have to do it by -- they keep on accruing it. 23 MS. HYDE: They keep on accruing it. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then we get hit with a huge 25 liability. 12-08-08 wk 60 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think the State allows you 2 to accrue up to, like -- what is it, 440 hours? Which, I'll 3 be honest, can be a nightmare to the County, and that's what 4 I'm still fighting from regimes before mine. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're different on this thing, 6 aren't you? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, not when it comes to the 8 comp time. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're not -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Detention Center is a good 11 example. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But the problem you have is, 13 you know, I've got some people that, if they want payment 14 now, would be paid at almost double the rate that they were 15 when they earned it. 16 MS. HYDE: Right. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's a whole lot better to 18 not -- I'll be honest, not to allow comp time to build up, 19 but to pay it immediately. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you -- I agree. I 21 think you do it for 30 -- I'd say 30 days, and pay it. 22 MS. UECKER: What if you gave until the beginning 23 of the following budget year? Then the salary would all be 24 the same. 25 MS. HYDE: Because people won't look at it -- most 12-08-08 wk 61 1 people won't look at it till towards the end of the year, and 2 then it's an, "Oh, crud." 3 MS. PIEPER: Then everybody gets off. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good, "crud." 5 MS. UECKER: And that's a management issue, again, 6 where -- 7 MS. HYDE: But there is no real true management 8 with elected officials. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whoa. 10 MS. HYDE: Y'all told me that. Y'all made it very 11 clear. It's each -- so, like, what you might do if you 12 retire, then the new person comes in and they don't know 13 that; there is no real management school to learn these 14 things. So, you know, that's what this is supposed to help 15 with, is teach people and educate people that are trying to 16 do what the rules say. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think what's happened, once 18 it's adopted as policy, there is a rule. 19 MS. UECKER: Because it's compensation. 20 MS. HYDE: Right. 21 MS. UECKER: So, yeah, it does apply to me. 22 MS. HYDE: Sort of. 23 MS. HARGIS: Eva, I think this works well with two 24 pay periods in big offices, but like your office and my 25 office, we have somebody out sick and they earn that, and 12-08-08 wk 62 1 then I'm short again. I mean, and I end up giving the other 2 person comp time. I'm like trading spaces here. If you 3 don't let them have it off within that two pay periods, 4 you're going to have to pay them for it, so you're not short. 5 MS. HYDE: Not short. You just pay them. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They either have 30 days, or 7 you get paid for it. 8 MS. HYDE: Can we say 30 days or two pay periods? 9 Sometimes that -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You already have 30 days. 11 Let's say two pay periods, then. 12 MS. HARGIS: Thirty days would be better. But the 13 only problem is, if they don't have it in their budget -- 14 MS. HYDE: But that forces us to be better at 15 budgeting. 16 MS. UECKER: Budgeting. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we want to say two pay periods or 18 30 days? I can see where two pay periods could be 19 significantly less than 30 days. 20 MS. HYDE: Or longer in a five-week month. 21 AUDIENCE: Do 30 days. 22 MS. HYDE: Paid on the 15th and the last day of the 23 month. You've got four months that have got five weeks in it 24 versus four, so they get longer. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, 30 days is still 30 days. 12-08-08 wk 63 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, 30 days is 30 days. 2 Let's do 30 days. And a kick and a shuffle. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or two pay periods. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whichever comes first? 5 MS. HYDE: Thirty days. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Thirty days or later. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whichever one is longer. 8 MS. HYDE: Or two pay periods. 9 MS. UECKER: The greater of two pay periods or 30 10 days. 11 MS. HYDE: I'm not going to figure that out. 12 MS. UECKER: That's not hard. 13 MS. HYDE: Can we go back to two? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is this all -- what about the 15 -- when we get to -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Whoa, County Attorney's got a 17 question. 18 MR. EMERSON: County Attorney does. The paragraph 19 right above the one that's in a box when you get to the end 20 of the first sentence, shall receive full pay for any 21 compensatory time balance. Traditionally, both case law and 22 statute says sick leave has not been a vested benefit. If 23 you leave employment, you lose it. 24 MS. HYDE: What are you talking about? 25 MR. EMERSON: If you follow this policy, you're 12-08-08 wk 64 1 going to pay it. 2 MS. HYDE: Why does it say that? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You're considering sick leave 4 as part of compensatory time balance? 5 MS. HYDE: Why does it say sick leave? 6 MR. EMERSON: It says any compensatory time balance 7 calculated on the time sheet. 8 MS. HYDE: Yeah, but that says all -- 9 MR. EMERSON: That includes sick leave. 10 MS. HYDE: Okay. So you want me to put "except 11 sick leave"? 12 MS. PIEPER: Just mark out sick leave. 13 MR. EMERSON: Yeah. 14 MS. UECKER: Well, look at the next line, though, 15 where you added department heads must approve timesheets for 16 each pay period that includes vacation, sick -- see, and that 17 -- that implies that that sentence -- 18 MS. HYDE: And compen -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: It identifies compensatory time. 20 MS. HYDE: By itself. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: As a separate category. 22 MS. UECKER: Right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Therefore, on that first sentence, 24 you're limiting it to compensatory time. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And not even vacation. 12-08-08 wk 65 1 MS. HYDE: Because vacation and sick time don't 2 have to be paid out. So, that -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why don't you just say -- just 4 add -- to make that clear, just say vacation and sick time 5 are not paid out, or are not -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are exempted. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are exempted. 8 MS. UECKER: You don't have to. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just scratch out -- 10 MS. UECKER: Don't you have to pay vacation? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 12 MS. HYDE: No, it's a benefit. If they kept the 13 benefits, we don't have to pay vacation, or we don't have to 14 pay anything. You can't get rid of what they have on the 15 books. But if they came through and said October 1 of 16 2009-'10 fiscal year, we're not going to have vacation any 17 more; we're going to give them five days and that's it, then 18 that's it. 19 MS. UECKER: I guess I'm thinking about what 20 they've earned. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What they earn, they can keep. 22 But I think we're pretty unique in industry -- anyway, 23 private sector, of letting people accrue sick days. 24 MS. HYDE: Sick and vacation. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know why -- no one in 12-08-08 wk 66 1 business does that. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Can't afford to. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Schools, maybe. Governments 4 may, but, you know -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Shouldn't. 6 MS. UECKER: Now, say that again? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think businesses allow 8 employees to accrue their vacation time. They use it or lose 9 it. 10 MS. HYDE: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or sick time. 12 MS. BOLIN: A lot of the ones I know allow the 13 vacation, a certain number of hours, to roll over, and then 14 if you go over that, then you lose whatever is over that 15 amount. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: We're kind of at a little break 17 point here, aren't we? Why don't we take a few minutes? 18 MS. HYDE: Then go back to two. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Whatever, but let's kind of let 20 Kathy rest from trying take six people at once here. 21 (Recess taken from 2:47 p.m. to 3:05 p.m.) 22 - - - - - - - - - - 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to order here. 24 Where are we going now, Ms. Hyde? 25 MS. HYDE: 2.01. 12-08-08 wk 67 1 JUDGE TINLEY: 2.01? 2 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. Just to -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait, wait, wait, wait. On 4 Page 52 -- 5 MS. HYDE: Oh, no. 6 MS. UECKER: Where are we? 7 MS. HYDE: 52. 8 MS. UECKER: Why are we going backwards? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, 52, 53, my question still 10 is, what do we do about comp time? You have to use it -- 11 what about the accumulated part the employees have? 12 MS. HYDE: That we have right now? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have to address that anyway. 14 MS. HYDE: Are you talking about the ones that have 15 it right now, that they've had for a long time? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How do we start -- 17 MS. HYDE: Here's my suggestion. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that -- does it need to be 19 addressed here or elsewhere, I guess is my question. 20 MS. HYDE: I think it needs to be addressed, 'cause 21 that's going to be a budget impact item, big time. There's 22 my ball. 23 MS. HARGIS: We were waiting for you to turn 24 around. 25 MS. HYDE: My suggestion would be that we look at 12-08-08 wk 68 1 that comp time as of a certain date, freeze that comp time, 2 and give folks two years to pay that out. Because we've had 3 it for so long, and some of those numbers are pretty large. 4 And they're -- they're not -- 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mine are major. 6 MS. HYDE: And then -- 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not in dollars. 8 MS. HYDE: That way you've got two years, and it 9 won't kill us on the budget. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or pay it out -- well, both. 11 Use it and be done with it after two years. 12 MS. HYDE: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At least a plan. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Somehow or another. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is comp time -- now I 16 forget the question. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What about vacation? Right 18 before we left, we talked about vacation time, use it or lose 19 it, or something like that. Where is -- 20 MS. HYDE: It's not use it or lose it. That's what 21 a lot of public companies do. I think that's how it was kind 22 of phrased. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But when are we going to 24 discuss that policy? 25 MS. HYDE: When we get to vacation. 12-08-08 wk 69 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're talking about the 3 budgetary impact, talking about basically paying that out in 4 cash, correct? 5 MS. HYDE: Because I'm concerned that we may not 6 have enough time for people to take off, so that will still 7 be -- still be there. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That should be our first 9 option, however, have people take extra time off. 10 MS. HYDE: Right. But, however, comma -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there, you have to look 12 at each department -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of course. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- individually, 'cause I think 15 Rusty has a -- I won't even go into it now, but I think 16 there's some things that can be done in lieu of paying it 17 out, which is high dollars for what we got, where we could -- 18 there are other options. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We don't really have a big 20 problem except for the Sheriff's Department. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What? 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: In comp time. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think Juvenile Detention 24 Facility's been pretty well cleaned out. 25 MS. HYDE: He's pretty much cleaned out -- he was 12-08-08 wk 70 1 able to -- you know, how he was able to do it is during the 2 last year was when he put in the part-timers, and then he 3 started using those part-timers to allow his people to take 4 the time off. And that's a little bit different than the 5 S.O. and the jail have got, because they don't have the 6 luxury of hiring eight or nine part-timers. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In reality, comp time, we are 8 making them take that off or paying them for it immediately. 9 Where we have built up, and what has built up so exorbitant 10 is the holidays. 11 MS. HYDE: Right. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what killed us. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And also vacation time. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, holidays and vacation 15 are what's killing me. 16 MS. HYDE: But this year, he's -- he's going to pay 17 his holidays. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, we're starting it as of 19 November. We've been, this pay period, starting to pay them. 20 And I may end up having to do some budget amendments on 21 overtime at the end of the year, but we're trying to pay the 22 holidays now if we can, instead of banking it. 23 MS. HYDE: If you go back to Page 21, the only part 24 that I think that everyone needs to kind of really 25 understand, and I had to walk through it myself again, is on 12-08-08 wk 71 1 that very top, no-fault attendance policy, the 240-day rule. 2 Employees that have no hours actually worked for 240 days, 3 including weekends and holidays, in a 12-month period are 4 separated, period. FMLA-protected absences and military 5 leave do not count. And department heads -- I'm going to 6 change that; I think we're going to call it E.O.A.O., elected 7 or appointed officials -- are responsible for tracking and 8 implementing the policy. What's supposed to be happening on 9 our FMLA is if they're out on that fourth day, we're making 10 them fill out FMLA forms. So, that way it -- it is what we 11 call protective leave. But I just wanted to make sure 12 everybody kind of understood that. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But the FMLA stuff is subject 14 to change with the upcoming -- 15 MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm, yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Give me an example of how 17 someone could have 230 days and not be on FMLA. I mean -- 18 MS. HYDE: I don't know how they did that before. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Sick leave. 20 MS. HYDE: But they could be out -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sick leave. That's FMLA, isn't 22 it? 23 MS. HYDE: But we weren't doing FMLA. 24 MS. PIEPER: Prior to -- prior to Eva coming on 25 board, I didn't know a thing about FMLA leave, so if I had an 12-08-08 wk 72 1 employee that had been here for 20 years and raked up a 2 million hours, if they got sick, they got sick and used sick 3 time. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 5 MS. PIEPER: If they didn't get sick, it continued 6 to accrue. 7 MS. HYDE: And some employees took advantage of 8 that. If they knew they were going to retire or quit, they 9 got sick. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I can't figure out how you can 11 -- a scenario, you know, going forward. I mean, I understand 12 the past thing. How you can be gone for 230 days and not be 13 on some sort of -- 14 MS. HYDE: We wouldn't. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I know a state employee 16 retiring at the end of this month that is being paid for two 17 years of sick days. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know; that's past. I'm 19 talking about, you know, from now going forward. 20 MS. HYDE: It should not happen. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Shouldn't. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Seems like it's -- is that a 23 federal law, 240? Where is that? 24 MS. HYDE: It is something that the feds use, and 25 that's why I like it. 12-08-08 wk 73 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. It seems like an -- I 2 can't -- 3 MS. HYDE: It's a cover, in case -- especially in 4 government, in case -- let's say you get a newly elected 5 official that doesn't understand, and so they allow an 6 employee to take off to take care of a family member or 7 something, and they don't put them on FMLA. I mean, that 8 could happen. And this just kind of covers everybody's tail. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I would say, to me, 10 that seems like a long period of time. To me, it should be 11 shorter. 12 MS. HYDE: 240 hours is just six weeks. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 240 days. 14 MS. UECKER: It says days. Including holidays and 15 weekends -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, that's -- that's a 17 year. 18 MS. UECKER: That's three-fourths of a year. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Work days, it is a year. 20 MS. HYDE: You're taking care of a family member, 21 or you have a baby. 22 MS. UECKER: But it includes holidays and weekends. 23 MS. HYDE: Okay. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Clarification, Eva. If it's a 25 family member that, say, has cancer or something, that 12-08-08 wk 74 1 employee takes off for six months, is that employee on FMLA? 2 MS. HYDE: It depends on what you're calling a 3 family member. Mother, father, sister, brother. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 5 MS. HYDE: Yes. Yes. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Spouse, whatever. So, the 7 employee can be on FMLA for the -- 8 MS. HYDE: Yes. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: To be on FMLA and sick leave at the 10 same time, so that they can get paid. 11 MS. HYDE: Right. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 14 MS. BOLIN: So, 240 days and not 240 hours. 15 MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm, 240 days. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Moving right along. 17 MS. HYDE: I think that there was a question in 18 Commissioner Baldwin's mind on Page 23, on categories of 19 employment. This is a little bit different. We've got 20 full-time; that's 32 hours plus a week. Part-time, which is 21 32 hours or less. Temporary part-time, vocational intern, 22 and co-op students, and then casual. The 900-hour rule was 23 changed, so that needs to change, and I'll update it. It's 24 by court order, so if you'd mark that out, that's not 25 correct. 12-08-08 wk 75 1 JUDGE TINLEY: The 900-hour rule is no longer in 2 effect? 3 MS. HYDE: No, sir. Y'all -- y'all passed a new 4 order, because we had one operation that went outside, and we 5 passed a little bit higher. So, I'll pull that. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: What did we come up with, 1,080? 7 MS. HYDE: I'm thinking it was, like, half of the 8 full-time, but I don't -- don't quote me. I was thinking 9 like 1,040 or something like that. 'Cause it's 2,080 hours 10 is considered full-time. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, yeah. 12 MS. HYDE: But I'd rather pull the court order, and 13 that way I can cite it as well. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Are you just taking out those 16 two sentences, or are you going to redo them? 17 MS. UECKER: Just marking out the 900, and I'll put 18 in what the court order dictates. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 20 MS. HYDE: On Page 25, y'all had a question on the 21 outside employment and activities. That very first 22 paragraph, and the second paragraph, both -- both -- I've got 23 marks on it for better words; it needs better wording. I 24 don't remember if that was Rex, the Judge, or both. 25 MS. UECKER: Sounds fine to me. First one. 12-08-08 wk 76 1 MS. HYDE: Well, I think 'cause I have "any" in 2 there, maybe. 3 MS. UECKER: And -- well, just say "an" activity, 4 then. In an activity. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, guru down there. 6 MS. HYDE: "Any." Okay. So, is everybody okay 7 with that first paragraph? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd feel better if I change 9 "his/her" to "their," t-h-e-i-r. 10 MS. HYDE: Okay, done. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, let me ask you 12 something. Now that they're going to change it, do you 13 really feel better, or are you just you saying that? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I really do feel better. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. All right. What -- 16 what is an example of a person adversely affecting or 17 conflicting their ability to duties -- 18 MS. UECKER: For example, let's say you've got an 19 employee that -- and we'll use the courthouse. You got an 20 employee that works 8:00 to 5:00 here, and then goes home for 21 two, three hours, and works, say, 9:00 to 4:00 in the morning 22 at another job. They come home; they have two or three hours 23 sleep, and they come to work, and it impacts their ability to 24 do their job here. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. It's not like a 12-08-08 wk 77 1 Sheriff's deputy going off and working at a beer joint with 2 his uniform on or something like that? 3 MS. HYDE: Well, it could. 4 MS. UECKER: Yeah. 5 MS. HYDE: It could. I just used this one as an 6 example. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They can only do it once. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Standing guard at the Lopez 9 Club for 15 hours? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Once. 11 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's move on to the next 13 one here. 14 MS. HYDE: Okay. Then the second one, the second 15 paragraph, I've got needs better wording, but the bottom line 16 was, if the person is going to go out and get another job -- 17 when we were talking about it, everyone kind of wanted their 18 people to talk to them about the job before they accepted 19 another job. For example, if you're working -- and, Linda, 20 I'll use you, 'cause I think this was one that we had talked 21 about too. If you're working in the District Clerk's office, 22 and you're the one that's setting up all the warrants and 23 stuff, you probably don't want, necessarily, that person to 24 be working in -- was it a bar? Like, working in a bar at 25 night, or being a hoochie or something. 12-08-08 wk 78 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hoochie? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A hoochie. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can you tell us what a 4 hoochie might be? 5 MS. HYDE: Whatever. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Give us an example. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Many places around here -- 8 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Moving right along. 10 MS. HYDE: So, I mean, does it sound okay? Or -- 11 because this is kind of telling the person that they can't 12 work some other jobs. That gives the department head/elected 13 official the ability to tell a person that, no, they can't 14 have that other job. 15 MS. LAVENDER: You know, some of our lower-paid 16 employees -- this is kind of a difficult thing, but some of 17 them have to have a second job to make ends meet. 18 MS. HYDE: I understand that, but if the second job 19 impacts their ability to do the primary job -- 20 MS. LAVENDER: But who makes that decision? 21 MS. HYDE: -- or it brings dishonor or discredit 22 upon the office -- 23 MS. LAVENDER: I agree, but who makes -- does their 24 supervisor make the decision? Is that the way it -- 25 MS. BOLIN: Say you got somebody that -- 12-08-08 wk 79 1 MS. LAVENDER: Is there an appeal process? 2 MS. HYDE: An appeal process? 3 MS. UECKER: That would be her. 4 MR. BOLLIER: That would be her, yeah. But if you 5 have somebody that's working in the evening, he comes home, 6 like Eva said, only sleeping -- he or she only sleeps two or 7 three hours, okay, that's not only -- that's not only 8 somebody coming to work that hasn't had enough sleep or 9 anything like that, but he becomes a liability. He becomes a 10 walking hazard out there, as far as I'm concerned, looking 11 for a place to get hurt or hurt someone. Especially if it's 12 one of my guys and they have to drive from here to the Ag 13 Barn or something. They don't need to be in a vehicle if 14 they've only had a couple hours of sleep. They can't come 15 here and work, that's for sure. 16 MS. LAVENDER: What I was talking about, like the 17 people that work the four days on and three days off, the 18 Juvenile Detention and Rusty's people and stuff like that. 19 That's -- that was my question. 20 MS. HYDE: I can tell you that -- that before -- I 21 mean, in both cases, they better talk to Rusty and Kevin. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mine have a separate form they 23 have to fill out asking to be able to work any off-duty job. 24 Doesn't matter what it is. 25 MS. LAVENDER: Because the more we go -- not just 12-08-08 wk 80 1 the County, but any other business, goes to the four-day work 2 week, the more that's going to become an issue, because 3 people are going to go out and find things to do those other 4 three days. And so that was my question, if there was -- 5 MS. HYDE: As long as it doesn't affect their 6 primary job, they've gone through the chain. We just have 7 people that were working, and they obviously -- to give 8 another one, here's the deal that I like. They take sick 9 leave, and they're out there working. 10 MS. BOLIN: We had that happen. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, one thing you have to be 12 careful with -- and the Judge, I think, would agree. You 13 have to watch, such as with my people -- and it may work with 14 any county employee. If that employee is working another 15 off-duty job, or secondary job, and say it's at a place where 16 they serve alcohol, and he gets into something at that 17 location, it's very likely, even though it's an off-duty job 18 and not associated with the county, that a lawsuit's going to 19 be filed against the county too, because of the deep pockets 20 syndrome, and you're going to have to be able to adjust. So, 21 yeah, I have a big issue on whether my guys are working 22 off-duty jobs, and they don't work where alcohol is served. 23 MS. UECKER: I've had this policy all along. They 24 have to come to me and get it approved. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: You've had no problem with it? 12-08-08 wk 81 1 MS. UECKER: No. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I haven't either. 3 MS. UECKER: And they also understand, and I 4 require them to tell their other employer that the first 5 priority is the County. If they're needed, you know -- well, 6 it happens all the time. Robbin works another job. She'll 7 call in and say, "I can't -- I got to say here." 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Got to stay late with a jury or 9 whatever, sure. 10 MS. UECKER: So, that's something I've had in 11 place. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I got no problem with it whatsoever. 13 MS. HYDE: Y'all okay? 14 MS. UECKER: I think it's fine. 15 MS. HYDE: Page 26. Only thing that's grayed out 16 is that I just want to make sure, because the Sheriff's 17 policy and guidelines regarding security -- you know, these 18 keys are changing to fobs, so that will probably change when 19 that changes, whenever he says. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We already have them all made 21 up and ready to issue. 22 MS. UECKER: We've got them. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, they had a keyboard 24 switch go out up there that Trolinger had to order, and -- 25 MR. TROLINGER: It's fixed. 12-08-08 wk 82 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It is fixed now, so they 2 probably ought to get them turned on any time. 3 MS. UECKER: Who's "they"? 4 MS. HYDE: On Page 27, on solicitation, on my 5 notes, I have two people on the Court were saying whack it, 6 and two people said leave it, so I'm confused on what y'all 7 want to do about solicitation. If Mary comes in and wants to 8 sell tacos, is that okay? And if that's okay, if we have 9 anybody else that wants to come in and sell coupon books, 10 or -- or Avon or jewelry or pocketbooks, I mean -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: My recollection of where we came 12 down on that was that employees or people outside of county 13 employment, if they were distributing or selling items which 14 were in furtherance of some civic endeavor, that's okay. 15 MS. HYDE: Okay. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Otherwise, no. That's my 17 recollection of kind of where we -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was something like that, 19 yes. 20 MS. HYDE: Okay. So, I can get the notes from -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Doesn't deal with the sale 22 of merchandise? 23 MS. HYDE: I'm sorry? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This doesn't deal with the 25 sale of merchandise? 12-08-08 wk 83 1 MS. HYDE: Well, no, we never did put it in there, 2 because that opened up another can of worms. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're talking about the lady 4 that sells tacos down the hall here? 5 MS. HYDE: I don't know. I'm just using that as an 6 example. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. We're talking about 8 the lady that's selling tacos down the hall down here. Does 9 that mean she no longer can sell tacos down the hall down 10 here? Is that what we're saying? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I didn't know we had somebody inside 12 the courthouse -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's pretend we had a lady 14 that came in and sold tacos. I've never seen a taco lady 15 around here. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Used to. 17 MS. HYDE: There's a lady in town that's going 18 around selling tamales; she came in. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: City Health Department shut 20 her down. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about the lady that 22 comes into y'all's place, or used to come in your place, that 23 sells tacos in the morning? 24 MS. THOMPSON: She used to. 25 MS. HYDE: Let's say she still did. 12-08-08 wk 84 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's pretend -- go with me 2 with this pretending thing. Let's pretend that she still 3 does. 4 MS. THOMPSON: For instance, we have a guy that 5 comes from a church to sell tamales. Do you let him come 6 through and walk through the office to sell tamales? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's welcome in my office, 8 that's all I know. It depends on how much they cost. 9 MS. PIEPER: Somebody sells jewelry that comes in 10 occasionally. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 12 MS. PIEPER: Some $5 dude that comes in and sells 13 whatever. And -- 14 MS. HYDE: What's the difference between food and 15 jewelry? 16 MS. THOMPSON: How do you stop one and not the 17 other? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Call. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whoa. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, that's why we're 21 sitting up here. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's almost time to adjourn 24 this. 25 MS. UECKER: I think what you have to be real 12-08-08 wk 85 1 careful in -- and we do have a lady in the courthouse that 2 sells Avon. She brings the -- I mean, there's no disturbance 3 at all. She brings it in, comes in on her break, puts it in 4 our break room. It never -- it never comes out to the front 5 of the office. When my people go and eat their lunch back 6 there, they look at it. I mean, I don't see a problem with 7 that. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's one of our employees? 9 MS. UECKER: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Yeah, I don't have a 11 problem with that. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But this -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm asking the question; I'm 14 not -- 15 MS. UECKER: As long as it doesn't affect what's 16 going on, or make its presence out into the public, I don't 17 have a problem with it. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But this seems pretty specific; 19 it talks about literature. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All we're talking about, people 22 can't hand out literature unless you're Kerr County -- it 23 says only Kerr County employees can hand out literature. 24 That's what it says. 25 MS. HYDE: We left out the food and stuff. That 12-08-08 wk 86 1 was a heated discussion. 2 MS. UECKER: Well, it's solicitation, period. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just put not solicit. Leave 4 out the word -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: May not solicit or distribute 6 literature. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What are we talking about, 8 literature? What is an example? 9 MS. THOMPSON: Avon book. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Avon books. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Christian Science Newsletter 12 at my office; they drop it off constantly. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bingo. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I got the impression -- 15 MS. HYDE: Credit unions and banks. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Join the Ku Klux Klan, 17 whatever. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Raffle tickets. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're getting a little 21 personal now. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I personally don't have a 23 problem with it. If it's not a problem, let them do it. If 24 they want to sell tacos, let them sell tacos. If they want 25 to come in and shine shoes, let them shine shoes. What 12-08-08 wk 87 1 difference does it make? As long as it -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's the key. 3 Now, if we're talking about somebody, in the holiday season, 4 selling tamales, it doesn't interfere with work, that's one 5 thing. It's one thing to come into one department to sell, 6 and another -- quite another to walk up and down the halls of 7 the courthouse seeking -- seeking sales in every department. 8 So, you know, what are you talking about? If a line forms in 9 front of Commissioner Baldwin's office to sell tamales, 10 that's what -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And the little girl 12 that comes through and sells me Girl Scout cookies every 13 year. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's okay. 15 MS. UECKER: 'Cause it's civic. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Huh? 17 MS. UECKER: Civic. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Civic? 19 MS. LAVENDER: Like I have the ReStore brochure out 20 here on this table, Buster. That's an example of literature 21 that's put there by a county employee. But I don't ever say 22 anything to anybody about it. I just keep refueling the 23 stack there, and they disappear, and I put some more out 24 there. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, can we get her arrested, 12-08-08 wk 88 1 or what happens? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I don't want her in my 3 facility. (Laughter.) I dealt with one Lavender for enough 4 years out there; I can't do another one. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, excuse me, I am 6 going to leave this fine discussion. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, what do you do? I mean, 8 how do you let some in, some don't? 9 MS. UECKER: Where do you draw the line? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you could put a qualifier in 11 there that -- discreet distribution or sale of items, so long 12 as it doesn't affect the -- the quality or quantity of the 13 employees' work. Or, you know, all sorts of things. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or tamales must be fresh. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 16 (Commissioner Williams left the workshop.) 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would leave the policy just 18 as it is, and if somebody wants to come around occasionally 19 and walk and sell something, they can do it. If -- I mean, 20 it isn't a problem right now. Just leave it the way it is. 21 MS. HYDE: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This says employees can -- are 23 the only ones that can do it. Other stuff -- 24 MS. UECKER: Well, I think the way it's written 25 kind of gives us the discretion. If somebody comes in 12-08-08 wk 89 1 selling homemade, you know, sausage because they want to earn 2 money, I have the discretion to say no. Policy says you 3 can't come in. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 5 MS. UECKER: But if it's the -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But say that -- 7 MS. UECKER: -- high school coming in selling 8 sausage to benefit, you know, football uniforms, then -- 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm glad you threw that in; 10 that hit well with Buster. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that makes it okay. 12 Baseball? No. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait a minute. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, that's what we're 15 dealing with, kind of, is football's okay, but baseball's 16 not. Tamales is good, but hamburgers are not. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Track, forget about it. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, track. 19 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 20 MS. HYDE: 3.12, where it says $5, we have the 21 discretion -- it can be up to $50. Right, Rex? 22 MR. EMERSON: Correct. 23 MS. HYDE: But it -- what do y'all want? Do you 24 want the $50 rule, or do you want something less? It used to 25 be $5. 12-08-08 wk 90 1 MS. UECKER: That's by statute, is 50. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, it makes it a criminal 3 offense, but you can also have your own policy, like I have a 4 policy they can't accept any. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can't accept gifts. 6 MS. PIEPER: I know, right. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: "Gift" is classified as anything of 8 a value in excess of $50, right? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anything less than $50, you can 10 accept. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe. 12 MS. UECKER: Any -- my policy is that you can 13 accept it if it's $50 or less, but it has to be -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Has to be to Linda. 15 MS. UECKER: No. No, nobody gets to take it home. 16 It has to be shared right there for anybody that wants it. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, like a ham or something. 18 MS. ROMAN: We just -- last week we had a lady come 19 in -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait a minute, there's a 21 question. 22 MS. ROMAN: Last week we had a lady come in wanting 23 to give us $50 cash to buy pizzas for all of us, and we told 24 her we couldn't do that. I said, "We cannot accept cash." 25 So she said that she was going to bring the $50 worth of 12-08-08 wk 91 1 pizza and a cake, or -- or a cake -- $50 worth of stuff 2 combined for all of the employees to eat, and I told her that 3 we couldn't do that until I checked with my H.R. department 4 to make sure that we were able to do that. I don't want to 5 -- the thing is that I didn't want to -- I don't want to 6 accept something on behalf of the department, and then get in 7 trouble. 8 MS. UECKER: As long as you put it out for 9 everybody, it's fine. 10 MS. ROMAN: It's fine, right? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would -- it's either $50 or 12 $25. I think $5 is -- you can't -- you know, I mean, some of 13 those kind of things, you can't do anything for $5. If 14 you're going to say $5, you might as well say zero. 15 MR. BOLLIER: Say, for instance, somebody sends you 16 a cooler in the mail, and you just take your employees' names 17 and put them in a hat, and whoever draws it out wins it? Can 18 do you something like that? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does -- 20 MR. BOLLIER: I'm asking, 'cause I done it. I'm 21 not going to lie. 22 MS. UECKER: I don't see anything wrong with that. 23 MR. BOLLIER: They sent us a cooler. It's just a 24 little cooler. I'm, like, okay. So we just put our names in 25 a hat, shook them around -- 12-08-08 wk 92 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $50 or $25? 2 MS. ROMAN: I have another question. The reason 3 she was wanting to give the $50 cash is because she was going 4 to have some out-of-town appointments, and she wasn't going 5 to be able to do that for us, to -- to physically go get the 6 pizza and stuff for us. So, could we still have taken that 7 $50 and purchased the stuff? 8 MS. HYDE: Not currently, 'cause the current one is 9 $5. 10 MS. ROMAN: Right, not current. And that's why, 11 because of -- of all of this. But if it -- it does change, 12 and she was to do this again, could we take that, as long as 13 we kept a record on it? As long as -- 14 (Several people speaking at once. The court reporter reminded everyone to speak one at a time.) 15 16 MS. ROMAN: We could lay it all out, and then I can 17 make a copy of the receipt or something. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rex? 19 MR. BOLLIER: Too much going on. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: State statute is $50. 21 MR. EMERSON: 36.09 and 36.10. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I think we use that limit, and that 23 way you're either over the line or you're under the line. 24 Doesn't make any difference. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 12-08-08 wk 93 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you -- is the cash included 2 within that limit? To answer the question that Janie has? 3 MS. HYDE: I thought it was gifts. 4 MR. EMERSON: It's gifts, but I think the problem 5 -- you know, from a practical standpoint, if you start 6 letting people in your department accept cash, -- 7 MS. ROMAN: Right. Right. 8 MR. EMERSON: -- sooner or later somebody's going 9 to be in a difficult position. 10 MS. ROMAN: Exactly. 11 MR. EMERSON: Putting temptation where it doesn't 12 need to be. 13 MS. ROMAN: Exactly. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we probably ought to 15 say gifts, not -- or just exclude cash. 16 MS. HYDE: So this would be okay, then. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: State law, but not cash. 18 MS. ROMAN: Right. Right. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Non-cash -- except non-cash gifts. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 MS. HYDE: So, use non-cash here. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 24 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 25 MS. HYDE: Are we supposed to be done at 3:30? 12-08-08 wk 94 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. We're almost there. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: What do we got, a couple more pages? 3 MS. HYDE: Progressive discipline there is what 4 everyone agreed to; there was no change. Informal 5 counseling, verbal warning, written warning, final written 6 warning, or suspension/separation, of course. Depending on 7 what they do, it can go, like, to separation immediately. 8 Again, that's up to the department head/elected official or 9 appointed official, but typically we talk about it. 10 MS. HARGIS: What page are you on? 11 MS. HYDE: 29. 3.14 was the one that there was 12 some discussion on last time, I believe. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 14 MS. HYDE: We updated it. When you get to Page 30, 15 that's where the questions came in. Are we going to do drug 16 testing on small fender-benders? Deer? Are we going to 17 follow D.O.T. regs? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Follow D.O.T. 19 MS. HYDE: Okay. Then I'll put in the D.O.T. reg, 20 if that's what y'all want. The valid driver's license, like 21 I said this morning, we're doing that, and -- and you got to 22 have a valid driver's license to work here. Does everyone 23 agree with that? 24 MS. UECKER: No. 25 MS. HYDE: Texas driver's license. 12-08-08 wk 95 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: To work, or to operate one of 2 the county vehicles? 3 MS. HYDE: To operate the county vehicle. 4 MS. UECKER: Well, that's different than working. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's different. 6 MS. UECKER: Give me the ball. 7 MS. HYDE: Any questions on that? 3.15 -- 8 MS. UECKER: As long as it says operate a county 9 vehicle. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what it says. 11 MS. HARGIS: You have it just right. You have it 12 right. 13 MS. HYDE: And if they do not maintain a safe 14 driving record -- y'all agree with that? 15 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 17 MS. HYDE: Okay. And then suspension or revocation 18 of the driver's license of an employee who is assigned as a 19 vehicle or equipment operator may result in a demotion or 20 separation. Everyone okay with that one? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 22 MS. HYDE: Especially if they don't report. 23 There's a "may"; it's not -- doesn't say always or must. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: If their job requires them to drive 25 a vehicle, it's going to, sure. 12-08-08 wk 96 1 MS. HYDE: Okay. Our no rider policy is basically 2 on the use of equipment and vehicles. Violations can be 3 separation and possible prosecution. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait. Just a typo on it. 5 MS. HYDE: On which? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under valid -- 3.15. 7 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Last sentence. 9 MS. HYDE: Uh-huh. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Employee who is assigned as a 11 vehicle. 12 MS. HYDE: As a vehicle? Well, yeah, is assigned 13 as a vehicle or equipment operator. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, as a vehicle -- okay. 15 You're right. 16 MS. HYDE: Thank you. That was great. There were 17 some questions earlier, and I -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: In addition to suspension or 19 revocation of a driver's license, -- 20 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: -- I think you need to add to that 22 if an individual has their driver's license suspended or 23 revoked, or if they are removed from insurance coverage 24 because of their driving record or for any reason. Now, it 25 may just be that they have a number of moving violations, and 12-08-08 wk 97 1 TAC says no, we're not going to take them. 2 MS. HYDE: Right, which we've got. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: And their job requires them to drive 4 equipment. 5 MS. HARGIS: We need to make that real clear here, 6 too. TAC will not allow us to drive -- will remove some 7 people. We just had some people removed because they had too 8 many tickets, so please watch your employees. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Persons not -- not approved 10 for coverage by our -- by our insurance carrier. 11 MS. HYDE: Uninsurability. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You may also want that they 13 must have the appropriate restrictions. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I was thinking, 15 too, 'cause they're -- 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whether it be commercial, 17 noncommercial, whatever. What they're required to have. 18 MR. EMERSON: Well, if you're going to do that, you 19 need to include occupational licenses as not qualifying. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: 'Cause we can't get them insured, 21 yeah. Well, if they're revoked or suspended, or who -- or 22 not accepted for insurance by our insurance carrier, if 23 they're not accepted, why, they're -- that's going to cover 24 the occupational, wouldn't it? 25 MR. EMERSON: Yeah. 12-08-08 wk 98 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Uninsurable. 2 MS. HYDE: Okay. 3 MS. HARGIS: And any action -- just put in another 4 thing. One of the people, both this year and last year, I 5 got a letter on was just because they forgot to go down and 6 get their driver's license renewed here. So, be sure that -- 7 you know, you might just say to your employees -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, it says "may." 9 MS. HARGIS: Well, these are people who forgot to 10 go down and get it renewed. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand, but it says "may" be 12 separated. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or demoted. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Or demoted. If -- if they just 15 missed the renewal date, it's correctable, and their job 16 doesn't require them, why -- 17 MS. HARGIS: I'm just saying that those department 18 heads who have employees who are using vehicles, that they 19 might remind them to be sure to get their driver's license up 20 to date. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 22 MS. HARGIS: And renewed. 23 MS. HYDE: Use of equipment and vehicles, we don't 24 have any questions, but y'all might have, except where I had 25 to take out an "and" on the next page. 12-08-08 wk 99 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does that conform to our most 2 recent court order about all that? We've discussed that one 3 quite a bit. 4 MS. HYDE: I believe so. Do you want me to pull 5 the court order and just validate it one more time? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 7 MS. HYDE: Cheryl, will you pull it for me? 8 Jannett, didn't you have something on 3.17 you wanted to add, 9 on the phone system? 10 MS. PIEPER: I do. I think we need to take out 11 that the County may not place personal long-distance 12 telephone calls, because even if they're calling their 13 dentist in Comfort, that's a long distance telephone call, 14 and which some of my people do, but they always pay for their 15 calls. In fact, if they should have to fax something off to 16 someplace -- doesn't happen very often, but occasionally. 17 MS. HYDE: What does everybody think? 18 MS. PIEPER: Well, it's already -- it says 19 employees may be required to reimburse Kerr County for 20 charges resulting from their personal use of the telephone. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It says here county employees 22 and officials may not place personal long-distance telephone 23 calls on county telephones. 24 MR. EMERSON: Doesn't say shall. "May." 25 MS. HYDE: Thank you. I got one right out of 60. 12-08-08 wk 100 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Don't ask me, Judge. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Can you explain what that was about? 3 MS. HYDE: Yeah. 'Cause normally I had the wrong 4 word, "shall" or "may." 5 JUDGE TINLEY: So, what did we do with that 6 sentence? 7 MS. HYDE: We haven't done anything yet. Y'all 8 haven't told me what you want. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: How about we say may not place 10 unreimbursed personal long-distance telephone calls? 11 MS. PIEPER: Can we include the words -- 12 MR. EMERSON: If you do that, then change it to 13 "shall." Shall not. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 15 MS. HYDE: Okay. Shall not place unreimbursed 16 personal long distance telephone calls, faxes -- or faxes, or 17 what was the other one? 18 MS. PIEPER: That's it. 19 MS. UECKER: A fax is a call. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know about that last 21 sentence. Cell phone must be turned off? 22 MS. HYDE: Unless otherwise approved by department 23 head or supervisor. There's several -- 24 MS. UECKER: Oh, yeah. 25 MS. HYDE: Okay, here we go. It's not me. 12-08-08 wk 101 1 MS. UECKER: It is me. 2 MS. ROMAN: I got a major issue with that in my 3 department, because I'm not always in the office to watch 4 what's going on with the office people, and I have loads of 5 texting. And I can call the office and nobody's answering 6 the county phones because they're on their personal phones, 7 and I'm not having it. 8 MS. UECKER: Mm-hmm. 9 MS. ROMAN: So I sent a memo out; I put a stop to 10 it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think it should be a 12 county policy. You can do that in your office. 13 MR. BOLLIER: I do that in mine, too. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's up to the supervisor. 15 MR. BOLLIER: I don't allow them -- they have their 16 county cell phone, so why do they need a personal? 17 MS. ROMAN: I think this is happening pretty much 18 in every department. 19 MS. UECKER: Mine includes the public that comes in 20 the office. There's a big sign that says you have to turn 21 your damn cell phone off. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Basically, with all the phones 23 that rang here today, we're not doing a good job with it. It 24 seems to me that -- 25 MS. HYDE: It's one of those disclaimers, so that 12-08-08 wk 102 1 no one thinks they have to follow this; they can still have 2 their discretion as an elected official or department head 3 within their office. 4 MS. ROMAN: I think people take advantage of their 5 cell phones, personally, and I think it should be on there. 6 MS. BOLIN: I can give you a good example. We were 7 in our insurance meeting last week, and the place was packed, 8 and somebody's phone kept going off in the back, and they 9 concluded the conversation every time with "I love you." 10 Now, that's not anything but personal. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: How do you know? (Laughter.) 12 MS. BOLIN: And there's nothing worse than having 13 to stop what you're doing so that somebody can finish with 14 their phone call before you can get on with business. And we 15 have the same thing Linda does; we put signs up. We don't 16 have customers -- if they're at the counter and they're 17 talking, they can go back to the end of the line, so that we 18 can keep up with people. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- that's not what we're 20 talking about. We're talking about employees. 21 MS. BOLIN: My employees don't have their phones on 22 during the day. 23 MS. UECKER: Oh, no. 24 MS. HYDE: Break and lunch. 25 MS. UECKER: They better be off. 12-08-08 wk 103 1 MS. BOLIN: That's right. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, it wouldn't pertain to 3 mine, but one thing that did happen, such as my chief deputy, 4 he had a county cell phone, but they kind of got after him 5 because he had too many minutes on it. So, what he ended up 6 doing was getting his own cell phone, okay, personal policy, 7 and that's the only phone he has now. And he does all -- 8 uses it -- he didn't want to carry two phones either, so he 9 uses it for everything, and he pays the bill with that 10 understanding. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's the option we 12 have. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. So that's the personal 14 cell phone, but he -- it's both county and personal. 15 MS. ROMAN: Well, like, my personal cell phone, you 16 know, I get tons of calls from -- tons of county calls on my 17 personal phone. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move on. 19 MS. HYDE: Use of county credit cards. There was 20 no questions. Access to personnel file. I'm going to keep 21 going, unless you guys stop me. 22 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 23 MS. HYDE: Do what? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think that's being 25 enforced county-wide. I hear phones all the time. So, I 12-08-08 wk 104 1 mean, I think if you're going to have a rule, you ought to 2 follow them. I hope people follow them. 3 MS. HYDE: 3.18 is use of credit cards. 19 was 4 access to personnel files. I'm going to have Rex -- 'cause 5 there's one more thing. There's some new guidelines out on 6 that that states that we do not -- what we do not have to 7 give out, and we can tell them no, period. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go through it. 9 MS. HYDE: Medical files, same thing. Then, when 10 we got to 3.21, we had talked about holding back pay, but 11 because of the budget, you can mark that out. There is no -- 12 we don't have the money do that. 'Cause right now, people 13 get paid; there is no hold-back. 14 MS. UECKER: What page are you on? 15 MS. HYDE: 32. We wanted to ask that people start 16 on the 1st day of the month or the 16th. We want to ask that 17 people would have to start on the 1st or the 16th of the 18 month. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you want to do that? 20 (Ms. Hyde nodded.) 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I try to follow it, and I 22 think she can agree with that, but there are times that I 23 won't. 24 MS. HYDE: I mean, there are exceptions, but we 25 would like for people to try to start on the 1st or the 16th 12-08-08 wk 105 1 because of payroll. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with that. I have no 4 problem with that. 5 MS. UECKER: You can try. There may be exceptions. 6 MS. HYDE: Age indemnification, we've had some of 7 that where we've had people that were less than 18 years of 8 age, so we have to have something from their parents. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question on that was, why 10 does the Auditor prescribe the agreement? The last 11 sentence -- last line, release and indemnification by -- 12 prescribed by the County Attorney and County Auditor. To me, 13 it's County Attorney. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. One of those, we'll be 15 in good shape. 16 MS. HYDE: So, you want it just the County 17 Attorney? Or County Auditor? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: County Attorney. 19 MS. HYDE: Do you want to stop here? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yep. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, we do. Yes. 22 MS. HYDE: So, 1 through 3 is okay? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And Part 5. 24 MS. HYDE: And one of Part 5. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Except for cells -- we want 12-08-08 wk 106 1 everybody to use their cell phones. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: On their own, of course. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All day long, every day. 4 MS. HYDE: When are we going to try to meet again? 5 I have to be in Commissioners Court to say when we're going 6 to meet again? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Subject to the call of the chair. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's true. That's true. 9 MS. PIEPER: Subject to the call of the chair. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Subject to the call of the chair. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: His. 12 MS. HYDE: Oh. I was looking for a chair. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I move we adjourn. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: We got to adjourn a workshop? Why 16 don't we just scatter? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's just scatter. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's cut out of this joint. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Scattering approved. 21 (Workshop was adjourned at 3:45 p.m.) 22 - - - - - - - - - - 23 24 25 12-08-08 wk 107 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 18th day of December, 8 2008. 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12-08-08 wk