1 2 3 4 5 6 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 7 Workshop 8 Friday, January 16, 2009 9 10:00 a.m. 10 Commissioners' Courtroom 11 Kerr County Courthouse 12 Kerrville, Texas 13 14 15 16 17 FEMA Floodplain Management Requirements and Procedures 18 19 20 21 22 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge 23 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 24 ABSENT: H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 25 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 2 1 On Friday, January 16, 2009, at 10 a.m., a workshop of 2 the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me go ahead and call to order 7 this Kerr County Commissioners Court workshop posted and 8 scheduled for this time and date, Friday, January 16th, 2009, 9 at 10 a.m. It is that time now, and we are at the Kerr 10 County Road and Bridge Department in the conference room. 11 The agenda item for the workshop is to participate in a 12 workshop with Professional Engineer and Certified Floodplain 13 Manager John Hewitt to discuss the FEMA floodplain management 14 requirements and procedures. Leonard, did you have anything 15 you wanted to preliminarily throw into the mix here? 16 MR. ODOM: Well, no, sir. I think John sort of 17 knows where I'm at, and I'd just like to turn it over to him. 18 And he was at that meeting before, but to discuss the things 19 that he's seen and his experience and previous dealings with 20 the change in floodplain. 21 MR. HEWITT: Okay. I put together some -- some 22 information for y'all to look through as we go through. You 23 know, the FEMA is updating the floodplain maps for Kerr 24 County right now. What I wanted to do is run through just a 25 brief history, and then if y'all have questions, feel free to 1-16-09 wk 3 1 interrupt me, or at the end y'all can ask questions. The -- 2 the FEMA maps were originally prepared for Kerr County in 3 1978. They were updated again in 1998, and now they're 4 updating them a second time in 2008; they'll be effective in 5 2009. 6 If you go to that first page, the FEMA is a -- is a 7 department in Homeland Security, and they're administering 8 the National Flood Insurance Program, which was started in 9 1968. They put together these flood insurance rate maps 10 throughout the country, and, like I said, the first ones we 11 had were in 1978. The ones that they're updating right now 12 is a part of what's called map modernization, and the main 13 reason they did that was to go ahead and put them -- or get 14 them digital so that you could go on the computer and see 15 them digitally. Right now, if you want to see if your 16 property's in the floodplain, you come down and talk to 17 Leonard, and he pulls out these -- these big maps, and you 18 identify it right there in his office. But now you'll be 19 able to go online on the internet and see if you're in or 20 outside the floodplain. 21 The original intent on this modernization is they 22 were going to go in -- and technology has improved over the 23 last 20 years, last 10 years. They've got new programs that 24 are -- are better -- that more accurately define the 25 floodplain. But what happened is they ran out of money, so 1-16-09 wk 4 1 all they've done with these new maps, the ones that are 2 coming out right now, is digitize what came out in 1998, or 3 the 2000 effective maps. So, for example, you know, the new 4 bridge down there next to the Lake House, that's not in 5 there. That's -- no changes that have been done in the last 6 ten years are in these maps. All they did was take the 7 10-year-old maps and put them in a digital format, which is 8 disappointing, because there's been a lot of changes. 9 There's been more floods during that period that they should 10 have worked into the -- into the equation, but they didn't. 11 So, that's one thing that's important to note. 12 For Kerr County to participate in the program is 13 voluntary. We don't have to be in the program if we don't 14 want to, if we don't want to be part of it. If we're in it, 15 on that second page, it tells what we have to do as -- as a 16 responsible community, and I'll just run through a couple of 17 those things. Leonard has to require permits for all new 18 buildings, you know, adopt a flood damage prevention 19 ordinance, and you can read all the different things that the 20 community has to do to be able to be a part of that flood 21 insurance program. In the -- in the flood insurance rate 22 maps, there's several terms that are -- that are good to 23 know, and I'll just go over a couple of them. In the map, 24 they define what the 100-year floodplain is, and those are -- 25 if you were to look at a map, there's a couple of squiggly 1-16-09 wk 5 1 lines on a map that show that, that floodplain. 2 Within the floodplain is a floodway, which a lot of 3 times, a lot of communities don't want you to develop in that 4 floodway at all. What that is, is the water's flowing deeper 5 and faster through that floodway. So, on the maps, they 6 typically define the floodway limits, the floodplain limits, 7 and the floodplain limits correspond to the 100-year flood. 8 And they've always referred to it as a 100-year flood until 9 recently. They've changed that designation to a 1 percent 10 chance flood, because people kept complaining that they were 11 having a 100-year flood every year, you know, three years in 12 a row, and they didn't understand what was going on. So, 13 that's when FEMA went in and said, okay, it's a 1 percent 14 chance that you're going to have a flood this year. So, a 15 lot of the designations call it out as a 1 percent chance 16 flood now. So, you've got two squiggly lines on your flood 17 insurance rate map that correspond to the 100-year event. 18 Typically, you'll have two more lines outside of that that 19 are the 500-year event, so that's the .2 percent chance 20 flood. Again, that -- supposedly, that will just happen once 21 every 500 years. 22 One thing to note, when they define all that, they 23 use about 60 years of data. They started recording flood 24 events in the '20's, and so now it's been 80 years. But it's 25 hard to define a 500-year event real accurately just based on 1-16-09 wk 6 1 80 years of data. A couple of other definitions that might 2 be good to know, you might have heard of the B.F.E., because 3 if you go and you develop your property, you need to be 4 1 foot -- your finished floor needs to be 1 foot above the 5 B.F.E. And the B.F.E. represents the base flood elevation, 6 which is what they've defined as in a 100-year storm, that's 7 how high the water will get, to that certain elevation. And 8 on the floodplain maps, that'll typically be a little 9 squiggly line across the floodplain. 10 So, what I wanted to show you was, one of the 11 things -- and Leonard's brought this up -- is that these new 12 maps that FEMA has come out and said -- and they have it 13 documented, that the new maps are just exactly what they were 14 before, except that they've used a little bit better topo 15 information that they've gotten in the last ten years. So, 16 they've made the statement that all the floodplain boundaries 17 that were on the previous maps are going to be the same in 18 these new maps. And -- and I've looked at a couple of spots, 19 and I know that's not the case, and I brought an example of 20 that. This is the existing floodplain map for Ingram. If 21 you were to go and look at this map, which Leonard has, and 22 it's a current effective map, right here where the Johnson 23 Creek comes in, you can look and you can see that this right 24 here represents the 100-year floodplain boundary. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 1-16-09 wk 7 1 MR. HEWITT: This right here is the new map that 2 they're going to adopt, and that's what we have a chance to 3 review and tell them if we like it or not. And you can see 4 that now this boundary comes in, and it goes like this right 5 through here, so if you -- if you have a business or a home 6 right here, -- 7 MR. ODOM: In the floodplain. 8 MR. HEWITT: -- you used to be outside the 9 floodplain boundary; you didn't have to have insurance. Now 10 you're going to have to have insurance. And -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's that trailer park, 12 isn't it? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that where Johnson Creek 14 comes into the Guadalupe? 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's Old Ingram Loop. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All right. 17 MR. HEWITT: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Old Ingram Loop comes right 19 down here, somewhere right in here, and turns, and this is 20 that old dam, wherever Johnson -- wherever Indian Creek -- 21 there it is right here. All those businesses, all those -- 22 they're all businesses right here, and there's a -- well, 23 that trailer park's out of it a little bit. 24 MR. HEWITT: But, see, here's the new one. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 1-16-09 wk 8 1 MR. HEWITT: So, look, that comes in -- that comes 2 in like this. Now all these people are going to -- when they 3 sell their property, all of a sudden they're going to have to 4 have -- the new person's going to have to have flood 5 insurance, and that's really the main reason. You need to 6 know that they're doing that, because word needs to get out 7 to everybody; they need to come down and talk to Leonard, or 8 look and see if they're going to be into the floodplain, 9 because there's a grandfathered period where they can get in 10 and get their insurance rates right now. 11 MR. ODOM: At 500. If they don't have it, they 12 could get it at the 500, which is cheaper, and then they can 13 pass it along. If they don't, then they're going to be at 14 what they're showing floodway. It could be -- the cost could 15 be astronomical. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: After the new map comes out and 17 they're in the 1 percent, as opposed to the -- 18 MR. ODOM: That's right. But if we do it now, 19 then -- then we -- and I think -- I don't know; that's one 20 question we have for them. They need to identify for us what 21 they've changed so that we can get this out to the people, 22 and that there's enough time for these people to make the 23 decision. Do you -- do you pay a couple of hundred dollars, 24 or do you pay several thousand? And that's commercial. They 25 got a flood-proof B.F.E. now, so if they do it, they're 1-16-09 wk 9 1 grandfathered. They can pass that along when they sell the 2 business, and they're all right. Otherwise, it could -- 3 after the fact, it's going to be -- what it is is what it is. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. Because right here 5 where Indian Creek comes across, everything in there, this is 6 the -- this is the Old Ingram Loop. It goes beyond the loop 7 and downtown old Ingram. 8 MR. ODOM: Right, the heart of it. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So all these businesses along 10 in here, and there's a couple of homes -- there's three homes 11 right down in here that are completely in there. 12 MR. HEWITT: And FEMA came in and told us that -- 13 and it's in the minutes, that there's hardly any changes at 14 all, but I've looked at two different spots. I've also 15 looked down at -- near Flat Rock Dam, across from Comanche 16 Trace, and there's people that are outside the floodplain now 17 that will be inside the floodplain after these maps come out. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Before -- this side of the 19 dam, or -- on this side of the dam or the other? 20 MR. HEWITT: The Kerr -- upstream of the dam. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Upstream of the dam, okay. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: But on the stream side of Highway 23 173? 24 MR. HEWITT: Right, exactly. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: On Riverside. 1-16-09 wk 10 1 MR. ODOM: What they're doing -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Flat Rock properties. 3 MR. ODOM: Right. And they're using -- what they 4 did, they stopped -- they stopped at the dam, the study. 5 They should have gone -- and we asked them when they were 6 here to go farther downstream with this study, because 7 they're not taking into account -- there's a 30-foot drop 8 there, and that 30 foot is going to relate to how far back 9 upstream does it really take this down? Is it 5 foot above 10 -- one house that you did for a gentleman was 5 foot above 11 the existing ground to get 1 foot out of the B.F.E. We're 12 quite confident that that study is not complete, that they 13 didn't take into account that drop, and they said that they 14 didn't. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, that's ridiculous. 16 MR. ODOM: Well, we think it's sort of ridiculous 17 that these poor people are getting -- they're getting some 18 pretty expensive insurance, and those are very expensive 19 homes sitting right there. We think that they should have 20 gone -- we asked them when they met before, before they 21 started doing all this, to take that into consideration. We 22 gave several instances of that. Town Creek they should have 23 been looking at a little bit more, Goat Creek, back over in 24 there. Of course, the City was asking them to do some 25 things. I think the notes that we saw here on their minutes 1-16-09 wk 11 1 reflected Bobby Gore saying that some of this data wasn't 2 added, but I'm disappointed that they didn't do Flat Rock at 3 all. They didn't do this study -- 4 MR. HEWITT: They didn't do anything. All they did 5 was digitize the existing models and use new topo maps. 6 So -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do we the have the same 8 problem in the area of Split Rock, just before you get to 9 Brinks Crossing? Do we have the same problem? 10 MR. ODOM: Same problem. All they did was take the 11 data that was there; they didn't do any study at all. We 12 asked them to look up the river, because that's where the 13 growth's going to be. Mentioned the possibility of the sewer 14 line and water lines going from Center Point to Comfort, that 15 that was our next -- we thought, you know, the growth is 16 going to be there. Nothing was looked at Center Point. I 17 wanted to look at Center Point in there. But I wanted to -- 18 if they're going to spend a quarter of a million dollars, 19 don't remap what I've got. Spend a million dollars -- 20 quarter of a million to go ahead -- or let's ask T.C.E.Q. for 21 some grant money; let them ask for some more money to do a 22 study that we know our growth's going to be. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We also have flag problems 24 in around Skyline Drive by the little park in Center Point. 25 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 1-16-09 wk 12 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just in that area. 2 MR. ODOM: Around the fire -- all that back in 3 there before you get up the hill there, yes, sir. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Did they pick up all that stuff in 5 the Quinlan Creek watershed as a result of all that 6 difficulty we had in the city? 7 MR. ODOM: I don't think they did. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: After the last flood? They didn't 9 even pick that up? 10 MR. ODOM: I don't think they did. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Travis Street, Judge. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah, all the way back to First, 13 Second, Third Street, all the way up to the golf course, and 14 further back up the watershed there. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. ODOM: I think that's part of what Bobby was 17 looking at. And the other one may have been part of Town 18 Creek, I'm guessing, because they have done some studies on 19 Town Creek with the tributaries feeding into the river right 20 there. I don't think they took any of that that the City had 21 done. That was done for them. 22 MR. HEWITT: But I do know in that area, the 23 floodplain boundaries are different than what we have, too. 24 'Cause, like, in that area -- 25 MR. ODOM: Oh, they did change that in there? 1-16-09 wk 13 1 MR. HEWITT: Yeah. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Which one are you talking about, the 3 Town Creek? 4 MR. HEWITT: Town Creek, right over there where 5 Town Creek hits Guadalupe River, there's -- the flood lines 6 are a little -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That shopping center and Gibsons, in 8 that area? 9 MR. HEWITT: Yeah. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 MR. ODOM: But what I'm looking at is back upstream 12 toward I-10. 13 MR. HEWITT: I didn't look up there. 14 MR. ODOM: Yeah. That's where your -- that's where 15 all that land's at that the City's got, and, you know, that 16 corner where Higgins has got up there, all of that is -- is 17 going to be developed one day. 18 MR. HEWITT: Where they're going to go from here 19 is, they're going to advertise in the paper two times, in 20 February and March. And after they advertise the second time 21 that they're updating all the maps, there's a 90-day comment 22 period, which is when -- I mean, that's -- there's only one 23 90-day period for all these type of comments to get in to 24 them, and they have to act and respond to all those for 90 25 days. And then after that, what's called the "final letter 1-16-09 wk 14 1 of determination" occurs, which is about July 1st. So, if 2 anybody wants to say, "You show me in the floodplain; I 3 shouldn't be...," and they've got a 30-day window from 4 basically March through June to get their -- their comments 5 heard. And then July 1st, it's done. There's a six-month 6 period where Kerr County has to do a new floodplain 7 ordinance; they have to go through a revision of all their 8 ordinances, and then six months after the final letter of 9 determination, the maps are effective and they're printed and 10 they're online. So, about this time next year is when 11 they'll be up -- up and running. 12 MR. ODOM: Up and running. Do you have any 13 suggestions with the change to our ordinance? 14 MR. HEWITT: They gave us their suggestions at that 15 last meeting. We have what they think is a template for us 16 to use. But there's several things that need to be discussed 17 in that six-month period, such as, do you allow development 18 in the floodway? Do you allow it in the floodplain? There's 19 an organization, the Texas Floodplain Management Association, 20 that's done a survey of most of the counties and cities 21 throughout the state so you can compare what other 22 communities are doing, and most of the other communities 23 allow development in the floodway or floodplain, provided 24 that you submit -- or a registered engineer submits a no-rise 25 certificate, which says that I'm going to put this house -- 1-16-09 wk 15 1 or I'm going to do this improvement right here, and there's 2 no impact upstream or downstream from my proposed 3 improvements. And that engineer has to sign and seal it. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's the way it is now, 5 isn't it? 6 MR. ODOM: We're doing -- are we doing it -- we're 7 doing it correct? 8 MR. HEWITT: Y'all are doing it just fine. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're not doing anything in 10 the floodway, are we? 11 MR. ODOM: That's -- that is -- personally, and we 12 discussed this a little bit, and I know that Kelly has 13 conveyed my ideas or my thoughts to John, but I do not 14 believe that we ought to allow any development -- that's 15 building, mining, anything -- development in the floodway. 16 The question is, do you wish to do something in the 17 floodplain? I understand there's two different areas. 18 Floodplain is that backed up water. It's backed up water off 19 the floodway, because you've already squeezed -- you made a 20 surcharge on the river of a foot. That is like that film. 21 If this -- if the Court had seen what we saw on Boliver 22 Island, scare to you death. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. ODOM: Respect for what the water can do. 25 That's the floodway. That was a V-zone that was calculated, 1-16-09 wk 16 1 and those old homes are still -- there wasn't any -- there 2 was only one left, and it was at the new elevation, and there 3 wasn't a wall left. I mean, it was -- nothing. I mean, it 4 was just a shell of a house. The only thing that saved it is 5 because it was at that elevation. But that was only a 6 Category 3. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. ODOM: Wasn't a Category 5. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just takes it down to the 10 sand. 11 MR. ODOM: That's right. Boliver Island was -- 12 disappeared, Judge. They have a debris line 4 kilometers 13 long and 2 kilometers wide from the Gulf of Mexico. I saw 14 films. We had a talk with the engineer for Anahuac, the 15 little city of Anahuac there. It's about 25 feet elevation. 16 I think the water got 22, 23 feet into the city. Part of it 17 was underwater, or water went into it. There's a debris line 18 to Winnie, Texas. Debris line at Winnie -- as you turn off 19 the highway to go to Port Arthur, debris line 10 to 12 feet 20 high, 20 miles back. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's unbelievable. 22 MR. ODOM: Unbelievable. Now, that was a storm. 23 But if you put that in perspective of the floodway, we're 24 talking about the main force of the water. And people are 25 wanting to build. One of the things we have is health, 1-16-09 wk 17 1 safety, and welfare of the people. Now -- now, it says that 2 you will not build in the floodway unless -- underlines 3 "unless" -- you get a letter of no-rise. And that's a design 4 by an architect or an engineer that the foundation can 5 withstand the lateral forces that are going to go against 6 this structure, and that you're at least a foot. Well, do 7 you think the -- I don't know if you'd hug my neck or not 8 when it comes up to the door, but you might be thankful. 9 But, you know, do we go higher to be safe? I don't know. I 10 say stay out of the floodway. All right. If it's 11 floodplain, it's backed up water. I still don't like that, 12 but, you know, a man has a right to his property. But for -- 13 to endanger the lives of your family? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or that you do not 15 contribute to the rise of the river more because of what you 16 did; is that correct? If you're building in the floodway. 17 MR. ODOM: If you're building in the floodway, you 18 cannot raise that at all, unless there's a no-rise 19 certificate. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You cannot cause it to rise 21 more by what you've done. 22 MR. ODOM: You will -- 23 MR. HEWITT: And, you know, there's an example of a 24 guy doing it right now. It's Mr. Stallins over there on Lake 25 Ingram is preparing a no-rise, 'cause he's putting a dock in 1-16-09 wk 18 1 within the floodway. 2 MR. ODOM: That's right, and a pavilion, an 3 accessory building. So, he is doing that. But he's also 4 offsetting that through this no-rise certification, and you 5 can do that. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Like Wharton Road. 7 MR. ODOM: Wharton Road? That's what I need. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Remember? We've got a 9 couple in the floodway on Wharton Road. 10 MR. ODOM: Yeah, but they had a design and a 11 no-rise on that, so there's not a -- let's just put it this 12 way. They can do it, but does that make it right? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Smart. 14 MR. ODOM: Smart. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, can we stop it? 16 MR. ODOM: You can change your ordinance and say no 17 development, no mining, no building in the floodway. How far 18 you come back off is a question. Do you come 30 foot back 19 from the floodway, or 100 feet? You could probably eliminate 20 a lot of that in the -- in the floodplain. Basically, this 21 area should be, really, recreational. But -- 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What do you do about not -- 23 you know, how do you get around taking a lot of the gravel 24 out in the floodway after a flood if you don't allow any 25 mining? 1-16-09 wk 19 1 MR. ODOM: Well, there I'm talking about -- 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You said removal or mining. 3 MR. ODOM: Mining. You're not -- mining is 4 construed by the definition as development. But you're doing 5 best management practices if you clean up the ground where 6 your embankment came out and dumped on -- I mean, then 7 there's a best management practice to clear that up. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Clear it up, put it back. 9 MR. ODOM: That's called erosion control, is what 10 we're doing. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Remediation or erosion control. 12 MR. ODOM: That's right. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Not a mining development. 14 MR. ODOM: It's not construed as mining. And 15 mining is if you sell it for commercial aspect. If an 16 individual is doing it and he's not selling it -- you know, 17 if that individual goes to sell it, that's a different thing. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How do you define what 20 Martin Marietta did downstream of Brinks Crossing? 21 MR. ODOM: Brinks Crossing? That was a permit in 22 there, and that was mining. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the floodway. In the 24 floodway. 25 MR. ODOM: In the floodway. They're allowed to do 1-16-09 wk 20 1 that. They weren't in the water. They weren't in the water; 2 they were off to the side. That was in the floodway area 3 that's designated by the scar or by the calculations. 4 They're allowed to do that. They can do that. But if they 5 get into the water and it's more than 3 acres, or more than 6 1,500 linear feet in that water, then that goes to a 404. 7 They weren't in there. They were off to the side, and 8 they're allowed to do that, and there's really no -- there's 9 nothing out there that Texas has done to eliminate that. Nor 10 has FEMA, because politically it's touchy, and there's good 11 lobbyists. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's why I asked the 13 question. Can we prevent it? 14 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir, if you say there's no 15 development in the floodway. Am I right or wrong? 16 MR. HEWITT: That's correct. 17 MS. HOFFER: I believe -- and I don't know this for 18 sure, but I talked to John about it. I believe there's five 19 counties in the state of Texas that -- they have a poll on 20 who, in their ordinance, have decided to go against any kind 21 of development in the floodway, and I want to say it was, 22 like, five counties. So, it's not a lot, but there are some 23 counties in the state of Texas that have -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can you pull that up for 25 us? 1-16-09 wk 21 1 MS. HOFFER: I will try to find it. 2 MR. ODOM: We'll try to find that, and we'll 3 contact the floodplain guy with L.C.R.A. But it is being 4 done. It has been something that they would like to do. But 5 FEMA hasn't politically been able to initiate that, because 6 they like to give the states the freedom to make their own 7 deal, and the courts. You can make the laws more stringent 8 than what -- they're going to give you the minimum. Most 9 laws are based on minimum to give you leeway to act within 10 the circumstances that are in your -- your jurisdiction. So, 11 they can give you a minimum through their ordinance, and we 12 can make it more stringent. Nothing wrong with that. But 13 I -- if we do, really, development, the mining, you stop it. 14 You stop it. 15 MR. HEWITT: I'm looking at the city of 16 Fredericksburg. What they say in their regulation is, within 17 the 100-year floodplain is zoned open space, and no new 18 construction allowed, including additions to existing 19 structures. That's within the whole floodplain order; that's 20 in the whole floodplain. 21 MR. ODOM: So, not just the floodway. So, it's up 22 to you. You can do whatever. It's up to you. You can go 23 floodway, where the main force of the water is at, which is 24 the Guadalupe and where it's mapped out, or you can go the 25 whole floodplain, where you have backed up water. 1-16-09 wk 22 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But development is not 2 construed as being a retaining wall or erosion control or 3 anything like that. 4 MR. ODOM: No, it's best management. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's like family dwellings or 6 something, or some kind of structures that are built above 7 ground. 8 MR. ODOM: Yes. You know, and that structure could 9 be an accessory. It could be a pavilion, but if it's in the 10 no-rise, you know, you can make some modifications. You can 11 say accessory buildings are allowed in a floodway with a 12 no-rise certification. That allows people to go down there 13 and to do it. But erosion control has nothing to do -- 14 you're not adding to anything; you're saving your embankment. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. Just a question. 16 MR. ODOM: No, there's some things we need to look 17 at, because, like I say, maybe a man has -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we say nothing's going to 19 go on in there, what does that mean? 20 MR. ODOM: Well, it means nothing except accessory 21 buildings. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 23 MR. ODOM: Or a design of an accessory type deal. 24 No permanent -- no residential structures. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No residential. 1-16-09 wk 23 1 MR. ODOM: And then you're going to say -- and 2 correct me if I'm wrong, but we would look at it and try to 3 get a better clarification, but an accessory building gives 4 you a wide variety. It's not livable quarters. It is a 5 pavilion. It may be a little garage or storage right there, 6 if it's designed properly. And, you know, it is -- it could 7 be done. I just really believe that the floodway should be 8 eliminated. 9 MR. HEWITT: I know of one case -- 10 MR. ODOM: I think -- that's my opinion, okay? 11 MR. HEWITT: -- by Shoemaker's Crossing, the lady 12 that wants to build in the floodway, but she's going to 13 elevate her building up 12 feet. That's Mrs. Sachs. 14 MR. ODOM: Yeah. I don't remember -- I know I've 15 got to get at least one, and I encouraged 3 feet or more to 16 go -- to be safe, because that water's going to jump up 17 against that embankment and it's going to rip and roar. 18 MR. HEWITT: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do you have Shoemaker on 20 here? 21 MR. HEWITT: No, I don't think I brought that map. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because some of those 23 structures, to my knowledge, and from past -- you know 24 talking with some of those old-time residents, those houses 25 that are there now are already in the floodplain. 1-16-09 wk 24 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 2 MR. ODOM: Listening to them, yeah. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: As for Shoemaker, everything going 4 all the way up to 39 and -- and going up the hill across 39. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, goes up to the -- 6 basically, the Canyon Spring entrance is floodplain. 7 MR. ODOM: Your FEMA shows about the corner of that 8 property right there that he's talking about is about that 9 base line. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is what? 11 MR. ODOM: That's about where we -- it was put on 12 the ground up there, and then it came across this thing. But 13 I'm like you. Listening to different ones that have been out 14 there, they said they've seen it; you know, debris lines were 15 even higher. You say, well, that's the reason I said 1 foot. 16 Everything we do could be construed -- we could look at our 17 community rating, and the better we are and the safer we are, 18 then I don't know which -- whichever way it goes, where our 19 rating goes up by a number from 1 to 10, I think we will be 20 better off and it'll cost us less for insurance. 21 MR. HEWITT: Yeah, you get discounts. 22 MR. ODOM: If we implement some of these things. 23 There's a trade-off for this. For the people that really 24 need the insurance or wish to have it, it would be cheaper 25 for them because we have a higher standard, and that higher 1-16-09 wk 25 1 standard will reflect to a cost savings to all the people 2 that need flood insurance. 3 MR. HEWITT: And it could be as much as -- could be 4 as much as 40 percent discount if you did all their 5 requirements. 6 MR. ODOM: I don't know that that's feasible. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Each county, then, is viewed 8 separately and individually as to what they have in place, 9 more liberal, more conservative, when it determines the rate 10 structure just for that county. It's not a statewide rate. 11 MR. ODOM: It's just for that -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Or national rate. 13 MR. ODOM: That's right. And there's -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: They set it locally. 15 MR. ODOM: Set it locally. And -- but you have to 16 follow the basic guidelines that they give you. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 18 MR. ODOM: That's the minimum. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 20 MR. ODOM: If you're going to take in F.I.P., the 21 minimum is what they're giving you right there. You can be 22 more stringent. The more stringent you are, then the higher 23 your rating is as you go along. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The less your insurance 25 costs. 1-16-09 wk 26 1 MR. ODOM: You have to weigh that. Do you want 2 people still to utilize their land? Or are you going to 3 develop -- I don't think saving someone from being foolish -- 4 whether they're multi-millionaires and they can afford to do 5 it, to build in the floodway is irresponsible, as far as I'm 6 concerned. That's my opinion. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Some people need to protect -- 8 protect themselves that don't have sense enough to do it. 9 MR. ODOM: That's the only way that you can 10 logically do it. And -- and -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, most rivers don't 12 flow as fast at what we have. They don't have the fall -- 13 MR. ODOM: The fall, and the runoff with the 14 elevations around. It's how fast -- it's not so much the 15 quantity of it, it's how fast it gets to a location. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You got it. And the damage 17 it'll do because of how fast it's running. 18 MR. ODOM: That's true. These are things I'd like 19 for you to consider, because it's going to be coming. We 20 have some questions. I am so glad that John is -- has done 21 this before, and y'all have asked him to do this. My Aggie 22 brain is limited of what I can do. So, I think that I would 23 like for you to consider some of these things. Maybe -- 24 there could be some others. If you have any questions, 25 because I really would like for you to consider eliminating 1-16-09 wk 27 1 development in the floodway. This would take care of the 2 imminent danger, as well as some of this mining is destroying 3 the ravine area. That -- that just eliminates it; no ifs, 4 ands, or buts. You know, everyone's got their opinion about 5 what rights you have, but understand there's an effect -- 6 there's a cause and effect as you go along with things. And 7 some people only have the monetary value. We all live here; 8 we're not going to be gone in seven or eight years, and 9 there's a long-term effect to everything. We're changing 10 this river, and it does affect people downstream. As we get 11 development up here, it changes. This flood -- this 12 floodplain's going to change within four or five years from 13 what they're posting right now, because of the development. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not as long as they don't 15 change the maps. (Laughter.) 16 MR. ODOM: Well, I -- if you go to Center Point all 17 the way back up, that whole river has done -- that base is 18 going to change because of the development, the runoff, and 19 the impervious material and the driveways and the roofs, how 20 fast it gets -- but that's, you know -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: It's going to happen. 22 MR. ODOM: It's going to happen. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right. 24 MR. ODOM: But if we can minimize the danger of 25 some of this, and particularly the development in a floodway, 1-16-09 wk 28 1 we ought to do that. 2 MR. HEWITT: And all those things you just said 3 have happened, and people think that they -- they're not 4 shown on the maps, so they have a false sense of security and 5 say, "I'm never going to get flooded, 'cause the boundary's 6 right here," but they forget that a lot of things have 7 changed in the last ten years. 8 MR. ODOM: Ten years. Let me tell you, 1847 -- I 9 had a place in Castroville, 1847, in the 500. It had a 10 100-year pin in it. In '02, it went 30 inches in the old 11 ranch house, went 30 inches in the front house. You couldn't 12 have told me that. That was in a 500-year flood. And the 13 high -- the little road in front of my house crested right 14 there and fell toward Highway 90. I thought I was cat's 15 meow. My neighbor went four and a half foot -- the neighbor 16 right next to me, down old Lorenzo to the river, went four 17 and a half foot in his house. That's what can happen. 18 MS. McMAHON: Could I ask a question? If people 19 were to build in the floodway, would the County be on the 20 hook for some of the cleanup as a result of it ever getting 21 flooded? It's strictly on the property owner? 22 MR. ODOM: It's on the property owners. And that's 23 my personal experience with Castroville on a different 24 property that I had, I didn't have the structures on. That 25 was my responsibility. Now, I could go and maybe get some 1-16-09 wk 29 1 grant money to clean up, but I never did ask them for 2 anything. I took care of it myself. 3 MS. McMAHON: I just wondered if it would be in the 4 interests of the County if there was any financial liability 5 for any cleanup. 6 MR. ODOM: No, ma'am. 7 MS. McMAHON: That's not relevant, then. 8 MR. ODOM: It doesn't say in that floodplain 9 ordinance. That's it. There might be a moral obligation if 10 the Court wanted to do that. That's a direction of the 11 Court. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we have a moral obligation to 13 do what we can based upon the knowledge that we have to 14 protect the citizens. 15 MR. ODOM: The way to do that is to allow -- stop 16 the development in the floodway. That's a moral -- that's 17 morally correct. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I can understand building 19 maybe in the floodplain, but the floodway makes no sense. I 20 mean, just -- you put yourself in danger, as well as others 21 that come after you're -- you're gone. 22 MS. HOFFER: Well, if your structure is in the 23 floodway and it pulls loose, and then it clogs up, we've got 24 drainage now; you've even got another problem on your hands. 25 Now we've plugged up drainage because of a structure that we 1-16-09 wk 30 1 allowed to be built in the floodway. So -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a lot of what happened on the 3 Quinlan Creek situation. The debris that came down, with the 4 velocity of the -- of the water, that impeded the flow 5 getting into the river. 6 MR. ODOM: And it went up. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: It just backed it up. 8 MS. HOFFER: And you're going to have -- in the 9 floodway, you're going to have the cypress trees, the trees 10 that are going to get pulled out from the force of the water, 11 so that's a given. That's not going to go away. We're 12 always going to fight that. But then if you start putting 13 structures along with the cypress trees, and you get a 14 cypress tree, and now you get a structure that just came 15 loose, and now that's in the drainage. And, you know, I 16 mean, that water is just rising. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, that flood that came 18 down on that particular occasion, that was -- you might have 19 called that a 500-year flood. I have never seen that -- that 20 creek that high as long as I've lived here. 21 MR. ODOM: Well, you had some dams that broke, so 22 there's also mitigating -- 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Dams that broke. Had some -- 24 MR. ODOM: There's mitigating circumstances, as 25 such. But the -- the amount of water was horrendous. We had 1-16-09 wk 31 1 8 inches in 45 minutes. You had 5 inches in about 20 minutes 2 right up Harper Road at the county line. I had 8 inches on 3 Fisher out there. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. ODOM: And I have never seen Johnson Creek that 6 high. I could not believe -- 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It was wild. 8 MR. ODOM: It was wild. I have never -- and I'm 9 limited in my time I've been here, but I've never seen that 10 water that high. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not on Johnson -- Johnson 12 Creek was that high, maybe a tad higher, in '78. 13 MR. ODOM: '78? 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But that was the last time it 15 was that high. All you have to do is drive down Hoot Owl 16 Hollow to the bridge and get a real effect of how much debris 17 and how high that water was. 18 MR. ODOM: I want to say four here -- 4 inches, is 19 it, over a 24-hour period is -- is encroaching a 100-year 20 frequency? 21 MR. HEWITT: No, it's more like 8 or 10 inches in a 22 24-hour period. 23 MR. ODOM: Then it must be in a two-hour period or 24 something like that. I think it is -- maybe that's -- I've 25 got a deal up here. I can't remember. My brain doesn't 1-16-09 wk 32 1 function all the time. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But that same flood that I'm 3 talking about, Hoot Owl was the one that got in Jack Clarke's 4 hunter's cabin, and his family was in there, his daughter and 5 son-in-law and granddaughter. They had 3 feet of water 6 coming in that house, and that hasn't happened in years. 7 MR. ODOM: In years. So, that's right. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They were -- they barely got 9 out. 10 MR. ODOM: Well, they told me in Castroville -- and 11 I'm sorry to beat the dog there, talking about 1880 and 12 possibly 1850 was the -- what they even think came along 13 there, and that -- and that was -- my house was 1847, one of 14 the first ones. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, the thing we have to 16 realize is that it's going to happen. 17 MR. ODOM: It's going to happen. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're going to have those 19 rare occasions, but when it happens, it's serious. 20 MR. ODOM: That's right, yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's not something to joke 22 about, or to take lightly. 23 MR. ODOM: Take lightly. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: How do we project this forward? 25 These concerns, the factors that are all intertwined, that 1-16-09 wk 33 1 people need to not discount and merely look at the existing 2 map and say, "Well, I'm okay; I'm not within this shaded 3 area." And -- and we've got a continuing influx of 4 population and development and building, and -- and doing 5 away with -- with the forest cover, pouring concrete and 6 asphalt and all those things that occur to cause this thing 7 to change, and we don't see it changing because we're looking 8 at it on a piece of paper in a two-dimensional context here. 9 How do we project this forward to the citizens so that they 10 remain cognizant of what's going on and -- and what they can 11 do to protect themselves to be observant about what they need 12 to do to -- 13 MR. ODOM: Protect themselves. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 15 MR. ODOM: Well, I -- my opinion -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 17 MR. ODOM: I'll take my hat off as floodplain. I 18 think that it starts at educating either CFM's, a requirement 19 for engineers and surveyors. If I came to you for a design, 20 I think I would want -- 'cause they're going to have to come 21 to me to -- hopefully, they do; they don't always do. We 22 find out later. But to be able to educate, because a lot of 23 engineers don't. They go through it. They've been really 24 good. And I think real estate agents are a way to do it. 25 Technically, you can tell a man -- you can lead a man -- you 1-16-09 wk 34 1 can lead a horse to water; you can't make him drink. And 2 that's what happens. We've discussed that at -- to SARA. 3 We've discussed it in floodplain too, that one of the ways is 4 children, is education. The children have a bigger impact on 5 their parents, and being educated -- maybe the State would 6 get involved and have something there, but classes where 7 children are not scared, but informed about the dangers, and 8 that they go talk to their parents, and then that sort of 9 makes the light bulb come on. 10 My little son just telling me when he was little, 11 "Daddy, put on your seat belt," before I had a wreck, that 12 little voice said, "Daddy, put on your seat belt." You know 13 what I did? I automatically took it like that and I put it 14 on. Within 30 seconds, somebody wiped out my front end. But 15 I did it automatically, because I really actually heard my 16 son say, "Daddy, put on your seat belt." Well, I did. And 17 the same thing happens when your child comes; you start 18 thinking about it. Maybe you don't want to do it, and we 19 don't want to scare people, because we sort of know -- and 20 particularly involved in floodplain. But you want to -- 21 education is coming in and talking to us, talking to your 22 engineer or your architect, get design in it, tell them 23 inherently the way to do it. The other way is, if they can't 24 build in the floodway, they're not going to do it. That's 25 the most dangerous part. That's the most dangerous part. 1-16-09 wk 35 1 They build in the floodplain, they still are in danger. Is 2 it 1 foot? Is it 2 foot or 3 foot? At least 1 foot when 3 Frank did that was a good thing, and staying right at B.F.E., 4 1 foot was good. It was reasonable. I don't know if you 5 change it any higher or not. I don't know whether you have 6 an opinion there. 7 MR. HEWITT: Well, one thing I'd point out is, a 8 big chunk of the county doesn't have a floodplain delineated, 9 or a B.F.E. 10 MR. ODOM: That's true. 11 MR. HEWITT: There's a lot of the county that 12 doesn't -- I mean, you can look. It's got an approximate 13 zone where they guessed, "This is about the floodplain 14 limits," but there's been no -- 15 MR. ODOM: No study. 16 MR. HEWITT: -- detailed study at all done. So, 17 there's a lot of the county that you're going to have to rely 18 on an engineer to do it right. And sometimes they're under 19 pressure just to minimize that floodplain so their client can 20 get right up on the river. So -- 21 MR. ODOM: And -- that's right. And it makes it 22 quite difficult, because you're doing an estimate. Either 23 you're going off the U.S.G.S., or either you're doing that 24 flood curve, that panel, and it's only a guess. 25 MR. HEWITT: Yeah. 1-16-09 wk 36 1 MR. ODOM: I -- I'll say this. I did come to the 2 Court a couple years ago, if y'all remember, and I asked for 3 some funding to start -- 'cause I had the people that had did 4 that flood curve -- 5 MR. HEWITT: Turner, Collie & Braden. 6 MR. ODOM: That's right. The ones that did that 7 for U.G.R.A., I asked them to come in here, and I was looking 8 to take -- over a period of years, to start to take areas 9 that were going to be developed, look at the west end, the 10 Ingram area, look at your area, going back toward Jonathan's. 11 Those are the areas I know. Town Creek. To look at those 12 areas, take those first, let y'all -- as Commissioners, you 13 know your precincts and what -- what the plans are, where you 14 think it's going to be, and take so much money each year and 15 let them give me a detailed study, a detailed study of that 16 area. Then everybody would have something to go with, and it 17 would make it safer, is one way to do it. It's going to cost 18 money. And maybe we can get some grant money; I don't know. 19 Maybe we can get some mitigation money. But the -- at that 20 time, I guess the budget was tight. It's always been tight. 21 I didn't -- it was something to think about. We didn't get 22 it. That's one way to do it, methodically, over a period of 23 years, we study the area. We won't get all of it. I don't 24 think there's a need to go to some of the areas that are way 25 out there, but I think the areas that you designate as 1-16-09 wk 37 1 potentially development -- just pragmatic, that we should 2 study those areas. And maybe the others we don't have to 3 worry about right now, not in the near future. That's one 4 way. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: What -- and I realize this is just a 6 guesstimate off the top of your head. What -- how 7 significant is -- are there existing dwelling structures in 8 the floodplain in this county? 9 MR. ODOM: How many? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, is it a big problem? Is it a 11 small problem? 12 MR. ODOM: I think the last -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Whole bunch of it, or not very many? 14 Or -- 15 MR. ODOM: Somewhere between 250, maybe, to 16 300-some had a permit for floodplain, was the last count we 17 had to turn in to FEMA, I think. We probably have that. So 18 those are the ones that we know have gone. That doesn't mean 19 necessarily what permits we have, 'cause I don't construe -- 20 erosion control is not a development permit. So, development 21 permits are somewhere -- let's just say 200. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 MR. ODOM: Maybe. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That would include the floodway? 25 MR. ODOM: Anything. Anything in the floodplain, 1-16-09 wk 38 1 100-year frequency. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Of course, there's going to 3 be a smaller percentage of those that are actually in the 4 floodplain. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, it will be more in the 6 floodplain and less in the floodway. 7 MR. ODOM: Probably. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: You think so? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the floodway is -- is 10 the -- that's where it flows. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Plain is where it spills 13 over. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So that's -- you have more 16 floodplain than you do floodway permits. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 18 MR. GARCIA: We deal -- in the Environmental, we 19 deal with, like, one to two a month. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Floodplain or floodway? 21 MR. GARCIA: Plain. 22 MR. ODOM: What do we do -- what do we do, two or 23 three a week, five a week, something like that? People 24 coming in and having an interest -- real estate agents trying 25 to sell something. Same question, same thing. That's the 1-16-09 wk 39 1 reason I think they need to be educated. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. But a small percentage of 3 those is going -- are going to be in the floodway. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: A small percentage. 5 MR. ODOM: A small percentage. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, okay. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: So, what I'm trying to do is just 9 get a handle on -- initially, it seems that even if you -- if 10 you're in the floodway, if you construct in such a manner 11 with all the required certifications, if you eliminate that, 12 politically, that's probably fairly easily doable. 13 MR. ODOM: I'd say that that's doable. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: If you get to the floodplain -- 15 MR. HEWITT: You're going to get some people 16 screaming about that, 'cause they're going to say nobody -- 17 there's only five in the whole state that are doing it. Why 18 do we have to be the sixth? There is going to be some 19 wealthy developers that aren't going to like that. Might not 20 be as easy as it seems. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We'll get hit from the 22 mining interests as well. 23 MR. ODOM: Oh, yeah, you bet. Big time. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: But if you talk about floodplain, 25 you're -- you're going to get yourself a parade of hornets 1-16-09 wk 40 1 nests, aren't you? 2 MR. ODOM: I think if you go to the -- maybe go to 3 extremes. I would love to think that's the way. We would 4 eliminate the problem. But I -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 6 MR. ODOM: The biggest danger is -- is the 7 floodway, and it protects you from all development in there. 8 Maybe accessory building are a different thing, and you could 9 have that exception to that. In the floodplain, it allows a 10 person to build back -- how far do you build back from that 11 floodway? 30 feet? 100 feet? You control some of that, 12 too. You allow them to do it, but you push them away from 13 where that main force of that water is at. And they're going 14 to get backed up water, but not as bad. So, I -- that's 15 something to think about, that you can control it a little 16 bit there by that stance on that floodway. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't think there's a 18 problem with doing the floodway. I'd be willing to jump on 19 the -- you know, stand out on a limb on that one, but the 20 floodplain, no. 21 MR. ODOM: You know, that's going to the extreme, 22 and you don't have the preponderance of people. We're just 23 beginning. There was none, and the federal government wasn't 24 going to do anything. We used to talk to them about it; they 25 weren't going to do it. They wanted to leave it to the 1-16-09 wk 41 1 states; state's rights, supposedly. So, the congressman or 2 the senator didn't have to take the heat. Pass it down to 3 y'all. And yet they mitigated laws that you have to follow. 4 Typical. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: And we still get the heat. 6 MR. ODOM: Still get the heat. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with you, Bruce. 8 I'd go to bat for floodway, as opposed to floodplain. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, it's just -- you know, 10 in some areas, when you get more in the flat country, you're 11 getting -- you're just -- you're getting backwater, even at 12 the floodway, because you don't have the fall and you don't 13 have near the force of water. 14 MR. ODOM: Slows down. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If people want to do that, 16 you know, have water stains on the walls in their house, and 17 replace their furniture and carpets and walls and all that, 18 well, let them do it. But I think, you know, in this area is 19 just -- the water comes up too fast. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: And -- 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Moves too hard. And I don't 22 see how an engineer could really and truly guarantee a 23 no-rise in the floodway. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't either. It defies 25 logic. 1-16-09 wk 42 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's difficult to do that. 2 MR. HEWITT: Well, I could go in there and I -- if 3 you put a -- if you filled in the floodway, I dig out and 4 mitigate it, you'd have to dig out a compensating amount to 5 make that no-rise. That's how you get around it. 6 MR. ODOM: That's how you get around it. 7 MR. HEWITT: So you add here, but you take away 8 under the rest of your property. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, but still it's -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If we're going to do this, 11 far as I'm concerned, it's more important -- it's important 12 to do it now, before we get into a situation from Center 13 Point eastward where development begins to take place. And 14 I'd rather have it in place than -- 15 MR. ODOM: We have a chance. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- than to try to do it 17 after we get into that scenario. 18 MR. ODOM: Well, you can always change it. It's 19 y'all's law. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We make the rule and change 21 the rule. 22 MR. ODOM: You can change the rule if you feel like 23 it is too aggressive. But I think aggressive and common 24 sense -- sometimes people don't use that, and for their own 25 protection, that's what the government is there for, because 1-16-09 wk 43 1 we know what the water will do. They don't. They see the 2 Guadalupe flowing beautifully. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As it passes. It's not a 4 danger to anybody. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let's see them stand by it 6 when it's in a full-fledged flood. 7 MR. ODOM: Go at night and try to figure out what's 8 going on. You hear that thing coming at you. You might have 9 a headlight, see that about to terrorize you, and say, "Oh, 10 Lord, I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time." And that's 11 us out there. Unless someone's in a place and you're caught, 12 and your car's parked underneath, and that river comes up 13 and, boom, car's gone, and you're sitting there praying that 14 it doesn't come down those poles -- your foundation holes. 15 So, it's scary at night. You don't see anything, you just 16 hear it. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right. 18 MR. ODOM: So -- 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Makes a lot of racket. 20 MR. ODOM: Sounds like a locomotive. Didn't mean 21 to scare you. I just -- these are some things that we have, 22 and I think working with John, if y'all don't mind, we'll 23 make sure we get it. We have an opportunity to convey our 24 concerns, particularly with some of the these BFE's, and 25 identify these areas. And the people will have an 1-16-09 wk 44 1 opportunity -- once we identify it, they'll have an 2 opportunity. I really want it to be on them, not us. And 3 they're the ones getting paid federal money to do this, and 4 they should be able to identify it. And then we look at the 5 opportunity to get this corrected, and then we can change our 6 flood ordinance, and I'd certainly like to consider the 7 thoughts we've given today about the floodway. 8 MR. HEWITT: What the contractor has in mind on the 9 three-month comment period is typos and errors. Like, you 10 know, if you misspelled "Ingram," he wants you to submit that 11 to him. He doesn't want to go in there and change his 12 floodplain limits right now. I still think that that's -- if 13 we know that there's an area that should be outside the 14 floodplain, they should change -- make the changes in that 15 three-month period. If you don't, the next process is you 16 have to submit what's called a letter of map amendment, and 17 that would go through Leonard on to FEMA, where you would get 18 a letter from FEMA saying that the surveyor approved that 19 you're outside the floodplain boundary based on survey 20 information, and so you don't have to get the insurance 21 requirement, even though you're shown on the map as being in 22 the floodplain. That's going to cost a homeowner $1,000 to 23 do that. 24 MR. ODOM: To do that. And, yeah, to us, there's 25 no -- it's just the MT-1 that I sign, and it goes forward 1-16-09 wk 45 1 from there. But not everybody needs to do that. Sometimes 2 the insurance man will -- is sufficient. I don't think 3 there's any rules. There's no consistency, from what I've 4 heard from people out there. Depends on your insurance. If 5 you show them an elevation certificate, and it says that 6 you're in the X, outside that, and that structure is in the X 7 area, you're not really worried about it; it's outside the 8 floodplain. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let me ask a question. Are 10 you eligible for the same FEMA flood insurance if you're 11 outside of these colored areas? 12 MR. ODOM: Yes. 13 MR. HEWITT: At a reduced rate. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But they can -- I mean, 15 there's no -- no problem with them going ahead and purchasing 16 that FEMA insurance -- floodplain insurance -- or flood 17 insurance, even though they're not within the -- 18 MR. HEWITT: Right. It's real cheap for them. 19 MR. ODOM: Yeah. I have flood -- you know, my 20 elevation's over 2,000 on top of Scenic Hills. I got flood 21 insurance at my house. It's a -- 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What's the matter with you? 23 MR. ODOM: I know what water does. (Laughter.) I 24 know my insurance. I know that good U.S.A.A. -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm not going to buy it at my 1-16-09 wk 46 1 house. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You've been reading Noah 3 and the ark lately? 4 MR. ODOM: I want to tell you -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You are paranoid, aren't you? 6 MR. ODOM: I know. Y'all got me paranoid. But I 7 -- if water comes in that house, your flood -- your household 8 insurance doesn't cover that. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Unless it comes through your 10 roof. 11 MR. ODOM: Well, I've had them deny that to me, 12 too. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You need to change companies. 14 MR. ODOM: Well, I -- I guess so. U.S.A.A., I've 15 been with them since I was a young guy. So -- 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Better to be safe than sorry, 17 right, Leonard? 18 MR. ODOM: That's the way I feel. It only cost a 19 couple hundred dollars, and that was it. It's that -- it's 20 just security, that's all. 21 MS. McMAHON: Does the water seep in? Is that what 22 you're worried about, if you're up on top of the hill? 23 MR. ODOM: Runoff from an 8-inch rain or 5-inch 24 rain all at one time. If water comes in the house, they're 25 not going to pay you. 1-16-09 wk 47 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If that happens, we'll all 2 be gone, and Leonard can start all over again. 3 MR. ODOM: Y'all -- I'll watch y'all -- everybody 4 down here flow by. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll be watching everybody 6 from where I am. 7 MR. ODOM: I will too. 8 MS. HOFFER: We'll all be loading on the ark. 9 MR. ODOM: No, it's not that I'm worried about the 10 elevation coming there. It's just the local runoff around 11 you that -- that flows into the house. And if they can 12 find -- excuse me, if they find an excuse to not try to pay 13 you. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Seems to me that we need 15 to -- especially in these populated areas like Ingram, where 16 this has -- has actually been changed, those people need to 17 be made aware of it. 18 MR. HEWITT: Yeah, and it might be worth an effort 19 from Vicky or me or Kelly or somebody to draw on the existing 20 map what the new limits are going to look like. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. I think it would be a 22 good idea. I'd like to be able to take that, or, you know, 23 have -- kind of call a little community meeting up there. 24 MR. ODOM: A community meeting. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And show the people that own 1-16-09 wk 48 1 property in there what this has been changed to, so they can 2 prepare to buy flood insurance. 3 MR. HEWITT: Yeah, 'cause you don't want to do it a 4 year from now, 'cause it's too late. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Now it's pennies on the 6 dollar, but later it will be a bunch. 7 MR. ODOM: Maybe we can get somebody from ML-5, the 8 flood insurance people, to have a representative here. We 9 can talk to T.C.E.Q. and find out who they recommend. But 10 they do make those talks. They might be able to come in 11 these community meetings, talk about the insurance and, you 12 know, different scenarios that -- that people might want to 13 know, but have a better understanding of what the cost is, 14 essentially, and ask any questions right there about -- about 15 this. Maybe T.C.E.Q., or -- 16 MR. HEWITT: It's Water Development Board. And 17 they sent a guy out here the last time they came and spoke to 18 us; Manuel Razo, I think is his name. He offered to come 19 back and do that. 20 MR. ODOM: I think that's a good idea, is to talk 21 to people. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is this Nichols right here? 23 Nichols Creek, right by the Nichols Cemetery? 24 MR. ODOM: Must be. 25 MR. HEWITT: Yeah. 1-16-09 wk 49 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is that what that is? Okay, 2 I couldn't see it. I'm blind. 3 MR. HEWITT: See, that's an example where that's 4 just approximately where they think the floodplain is. It's 5 not -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That thing doesn't hardly 7 have any runoff. There's very little. 8 MR. ODOM: Sometimes -- 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I tell you, there's not much 10 runoff. Road and Bridge will tell you, it's basically a box 11 culvert. But up here is where I'm concerned about. 12 MR. ODOM: Oh, yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And I have seen it down at 14 Goat Creek, down where Goat Creek comes in there by what used 15 to be Patrick's Lodge. I remember when the bridge -- one 16 section of the bridge was washed out there in '78. It 17 undermined that thing and took half -- took one lane out of 18 that bridge on the downstream side. That was -- you know, 19 the water at that point was over Patrick's Lodge, the 20 building. So, that -- that is another -- but this really 21 concerns me here around Ingram, because that's all -- all of 22 this whole area is -- you know, has houses and businesses on 23 it. 24 MR. ODOM: Yeah. They need an opportunity to be 25 grandfathered to get that insurance. Then they can pass it 1-16-09 wk 50 1 along to whoever purchases that in the future, and as an 2 incentive, rather than $5,000, $6,000 or whatever that risk 3 is. That's what they're going to charge you. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 5 MR. ODOM: Katrina and Rita wiped out the reserves; 6 there are no reserves. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: John, we have maps for the 8 City of Kerrville east? 9 MR. HEWITT: Yeah, you have -- you have them all, 10 all the proposed maps. 11 MR. ODOM: We have the films. We have the computer 12 model that shows us, too. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They don't -- remember, Bill, 14 they didn't pass out any extra copies. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: FEMA's strapped for money. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think the only ones they 17 had were one for Kerr County and one for the city of 18 Kerrville, one for the city of Ingram. 19 MS. HOFFER: I had to make a bunch of copies and 20 burn a bunch of disks. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Did you? 22 MS. HOFFER: From what they gave. I think you guys 23 have a copy of the preliminary map that Cheryl did for me, 24 and then the disk. They sent one disk, so I copied the disk 25 and gave John the disk so he could make a copy of it and have 1-16-09 wk 51 1 the preliminary films on his computer. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: What else do we need to go over, 3 John? 4 MR. HEWITT: That's it. Just -- it's important 5 that in that six-month period, you adopt a new floodplain 6 ordinance and you address all these issues between July and 7 -- and December of next year. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I think -- I think what's 9 ahead of us at this point is -- is an educational process 10 more than anything else. 11 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. Ponder some of things that we 12 have talked about. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, and this time we can 14 get some feedback, too, from the community, what -- you know, 15 by telling them we're thinking about possibly changing and 16 eliminating any construction in the floodway, and watch and 17 see how that -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: See the backlash. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How big their clubs are and 20 how hard they hit us, or whether they go along with it. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are we going to have a 22 presentation in Commissioners Court? 23 MR. HEWITT: It's y'all's -- do you think it's 24 worthwhile? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think it would be 1-16-09 wk 52 1 worthwhile if we publicized it so we can do what you're 2 talking about, giving a wider -- wider notification. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: In certain areas, we really 4 need to have some little public community meetings. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: To -- you know, to just 7 inform the residents so they don't get caught paying a whole 8 lot, or -- you know, where they could buy some cheap 9 insurance now, and later, if they decide they want it, it's 10 going to cost them a fortune. And if they forget to do it 11 once we've told them, it's their fault. But if we don't tell 12 them, I think we're in the wrong. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: As to those areas. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We need to know those areas, 15 or we'll be inundated, and then I say I don't know. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Overlays. 17 MR. ODOM: You're going to get a call saying, "That 18 idiot down there doing your floodplain doesn't know crap." 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've had some of those 20 calls. (Laughter.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Need to do some overlays of areas 22 that are going to be affected, and target those areas for 23 educational -- 24 MR. ODOM: That's right. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: -- meetings, and -- and just do the 1-16-09 wk 53 1 best you can to inform people about it. That's going to be 2 the core group you start with; those are the most affected. 3 MR. ODOM: That's the most affected. Those are the 4 ones that are affected. Those are the ones that concern me, 5 that have an opportunity to be able to financially afford it 6 now, and to be able to pass along that investment under a 7 grandfather clause. Otherwise, Katy bar the door, 'cause 8 this is -- 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Becomes unaffordable. 10 MR. ODOM: And we're -- about another seven years 11 -- as I was telling the Judge, there was an executive order 12 signed; it started decreasing 10 percent a year, up to ten 13 years, and it'll be at zero percent as far as funding or 14 subsidizing for FEMA insurance. So, Bush signed this thing, 15 and it's going down, and people don't know about it. But 16 eventually it's going to end up where you're sitting, and the 17 risk is what you're going to pay. It's not going to be 18 subsidized any more. That's a way they were saving 19 10 percent on their money. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: How long is it going to take us to 21 have the -- the -- either the overlays or -- or this 22 information interpolated and noted on the maps where we need 23 to be able to -- 24 MR. ODOM: I don't know. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: -- able to know where the affected 1-16-09 wk 54 1 areas are? 2 MR. ODOM: I was going to ask John if he could -- 3 that contact, whoever it was, maybe find out if we can 4 identify those areas generally. They're bound to have where 5 that change is. 6 MR. HEWITT: I don't think so. In their minds, 7 there are no changes. 8 MR. ODOM: I know, that's what they told me. And I 9 guess maybe we have to -- John and I take a look at it, I 10 guess. That's the only way I can see. I just wanted y'all 11 to know, because that -- that wording they used is not 12 correct. I mean -- 13 MR. HEWITT: Right. 14 MR. ODOM: It is not correct, and people are going 15 to be shocked when they find out. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Be more shocked when they don't 17 think they're in the floodplain, and -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And their house gets washed 19 way. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: -- and house gets underwater. 21 MR. ODOM: I was told they were to identify it. 22 When they met at the city and I listened to it, part of the 23 question -- they said that they would identify it, is what 24 they -- my memory of asking, 'cause I asked that question. I 25 was concerned, how much lead time did I have? And they told 1-16-09 wk 55 1 me I had six months to -- to identify it. I said, "How do 2 you do that?" They said, "Well, we'll identify those areas." 3 That was implied to me. And they should be the ones -- 4 they've changed it; they ought to be able to identify it. 5 But I -- that -- that doesn't mean a whole lot. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Good luck. 7 MR. HEWITT: You're talking about two hours per 8 map, I would think, to plot out a new map and draw the 9 overlay and compare them, and I don't know how many maps you 10 have in the county. I mean, if you want to do every map, 11 that might be 40 maps? So -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've got to leave. See 13 you, gentlemen. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: See you, Bill. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 16 (Commissioner Williams left the workshop.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The areas where we've got the most 18 development and -- and population, I would think we'd want to 19 target first. This area of Johnson Creek coming in there in 20 Ingram, obviously, that's a priority one. There are going to 21 be some other areas, maybe Goat Creek, Town Creek, Quinlan 22 Creek, where there's been a lot of development that's 23 occurred. Those are going to be the areas where it's going 24 to change anyway, because those are where the factors have 25 come into play and have combined to create the change. 1-16-09 wk 56 1 MR. ODOM: Well, the City -- 2 MR. HEWITT: The City's -- 3 MR. ODOM: The City's going to get Quinlan. And 4 they should be looking at their ETJ, but I don't know if 5 that's -- they should be looking at their -- at least 2 miles 6 out. I know 1 mile, but they ought to be looking at 2 miles 7 out of their ETJ as far as flood. But I can't say what 8 they're doing, but Quinlan ought to fall under their -- most 9 of their jurisdiction coming into the city right there. Town 10 Creek, you know, will probably end up being that all the way 11 from Avery's right there, should be steady all the way down 12 through Town Creek. We'll lose that road. We'll lose Old 13 Harper Road. Be more than happy to give it to them, and -- 14 but that'll come under their jurisdiction. Ingram is -- old 15 Ingram doesn't have much, but, you know, whatever they have. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 17 MR. ODOM: They need to go and look at the half 18 mile out. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Who's your counterpart over at the 20 City you deal with on that? 21 MR. ODOM: Bobby Gore, and normally the City 22 Engineer. If I really have something, Bobby will normally 23 have to go to the City Engineer. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably be a good idea to -- if 25 nothing more, just to let them know what the direction we're 1-16-09 wk 57 1 moving here, and y'all kind of figure out -- 2 MR. ODOM: It would be nice if we had the same 3 rules. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Well -- 5 MR. ODOM: I mean, they're going to have certain 6 things. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: But, you know, if there are some 8 areas that -- that are mostly within the city and the ETJ, if 9 there's a small bit that's outside, where we don't have to 10 mess with the small pieces of that, and just like if it's 11 mostly within ours, but something that feeds into -- and we 12 got city of Ingram involved, but their resources are very 13 limited out there, so we're going to have to carry the ball 14 on that. 15 MR. ODOM: I'll talk to them. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Just so the right hand knows what 17 the left's doing, so that we've got this thing on somewhat of 18 a unified basis, I would think. 19 MR. ODOM: I have talked to them about Town Creek, 20 because there's areas there that they're saying they don't 21 want to do, around Higgins. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 23 MR. ODOM: Going back the other side, and yet 24 they're going to take a certain area, and they're going to 25 leave Higgins. Probably doesn't want to go in the city 1-16-09 wk 58 1 limits. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I can assure you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll bet on that. 4 MR. ODOM: I can bet on that, yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't want them on their 6 property, either. 7 MR. ODOM: That's right. And so, you know, when 8 you do that, then you've got this area of Town Creek, is what 9 I told Bobby Gore and I told the engineer. I said, you know, 10 this is not right. I will try to work with them. They said, 11 well, you're right. And I said, well, you know, I can't even 12 get -- it's your jurisdiction on the roads now. This is your 13 sewer and water line; this is your road, and you take 14 everything else up here. You don't mind taking Mr. Avery and 15 them. But, I said, and here is Higgins left over here. It 16 doesn't mean that the man has to do it, but you ought to be 17 taking -- don't sit here, because what you do up here is 18 going to affect Higgins. And I said, your rules are a little 19 bit different, a little higher frequency than what mine are. 20 So, I said, here you are leaving a man, and yet you want me 21 to walk in and say this is right here; I got to do this? To 22 come on your roads? And yet you're doing everything else 23 over here and here and up here, but you don't want this. I 24 said, sounds like Roy Street to me. Or Peterson -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Exactly what it is. 1-16-09 wk 59 1 MR. ODOM: I said, you know, because the man 2 doesn't want on city -- doesn't have it, I said, eventually 3 he will. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He ain't going to live 5 forever, just like the rest of us. 6 MR. ODOM: That's right. Those kids are going to 7 sell it. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It would be worth a whole lot 9 more if it had sewer on it. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I get along great with Ed. 11 MR. ODOM: Huh? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I get along great with Ed. 13 MR. ODOM: That's just a hard-headed marine; that's 14 all there is to it. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: He's an Aggie, a marine. 16 MR. ODOM: Might have some effect on what he 17 thinks. 18 MR. HEWITT: Judge, did you want me to make a 19 presentation, then, at the next -- am I on the agenda? 20 MS. GRINSTEAD: I was planning on putting you on 21 the agenda. 22 MR. ODOM: I think that would be good. Maybe we 23 can find out if you can -- maybe -- maybe they have 24 something. I would appreciate if you would contact that 25 individual that was here, and can they help us identify those 1-16-09 wk 60 1 areas to look at? Even if we have to study it, and I'll see 2 what I can do. I will get with the City and see if I can. 3 But I -- to get them to do something, Judge, is quite -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand that. I understand 5 that. 6 MR. ODOM: They may agree with me in principle, but 7 actuality of doing is two different things sometimes. So -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the scheduling of this thing, 9 we may want to see whether we've got all the logistics in 10 place before we schedule that presentation. 11 MR. ODOM: I wouldn't want to scare anybody, and 12 get us -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that's -- we need to have our 14 facts gathered and -- and complete to the degree that that's 15 possible. Number two, I think we probably need to have an 16 opportunity to get some sort of publicity out there that this 17 presentation's going to be -- who asked that it be on the 18 agenda, Jody? Do you recall? 19 MS. GRINSTEAD: No, it wasn't necessarily asked. 20 We talked about it after the last FEMA meeting. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 MS. GRINSTEAD: Because Mr. Hewitt had been through 23 it before. And the main thing that came up was the whole 24 grandfathering in of the insurance. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 1-16-09 wk 61 1 MS. GRINSTEAD: If they got it before, they could 2 save thousands of dollars, so that's why we thought -- it was 3 just kind of after the FEMA meeting. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, that's what that 5 timeline is. 6 MS. GRINSTEAD: Exactly. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So we can -- we've got, 9 basically, to adopt this thing in July? Is that what I 10 heard? 11 MR. HEWITT: Yeah, that's right. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, we have some time. 13 Probably shouldn't schedule it before February or -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: First of March. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- first of March. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Yeah. Give us an opportunity 17 to get the fact gathered, get the overlays made, or -- or the 18 lines drawn or whatever is necessary to -- for the visual, 19 and then get some publicity to hopefully get some sort of 20 notice. 21 MR. ODOM: Are you -- you feel positive of no 22 development in a floodway, right? 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right now I do, unless I get 24 completely beat up around the ears. 25 MR. ODOM: What is your feelings on that, Judge? 1-16-09 wk 62 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't have a particular problem 2 with it. You know, I'm going to rely more on these 3 Commissioners, because they -- 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They represent -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- they're dealing -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're the ones that's going 7 to be on the front lines. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That's right. They're dealing 9 eyeball-to-eyeball with these folks, and they're the 10 first-line response, and I want to be supportive of them. 11 MR. ODOM: Is this a good idea? I'm sorry. Is 12 this -- this -- my concern is, is this a good idea, do you 13 think, in your opinion? 14 MR. HEWITT: Yeah. I -- what I would suggest is, 15 there's going to be a spring T.F.M.A. meeting, and you and me 16 talk to Roy Sedwick directly and get -- find out what other 17 counties are doing it, what their experience has been. 18 MR. ODOM: Right. 19 MR. HEWITT: Especially -- 20 MR. ODOM: Backlash, if they had any on that. 21 MR. HEWITT: It's different from us up in the 22 panhandle. We've got flash floods down here. It's a 23 different animal here. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Different topography totally, and 25 different -- different circumstances when that water gets 1-16-09 wk 63 1 crazy. Okay. Anything else? Okay, let's go ahead and wind 2 this thing up. We'll be adjourned. Thank you. 3 (Commissioners Court workshop adjourned at 11:18 a.m.) 4 - - - - - - - - - - 5 6 7 STATE OF TEXAS | 8 COUNTY OF KERR | 9 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 10 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 11 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 12 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 13 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 20th day of January, 14 2009. 15 16 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 17 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 18 Certified Shorthand Reporter 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1-16-09 wk