1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, March 9, 2009 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X March 9, 2009 2 PAGE --- Commissioners' Comments 5 3 1.15 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 4 adopt a resolution to apply for 2009-2010 Texas Community Development Block Grant assistance under 5 Colonia Fund to complete on-site sewage facility replacement in designated colonia areas of Kerr 6 County 11, 75 7 1.4 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to sign lease agreement between Texas Arts and 8 Crafts Educational Foundation, Inc. and Texas AgriLife Extension, Kerr County, for permission 9 to place propane tank and gas lines on Texas Arts and Crafts property 22 10 1.6 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action regarding 11 further training from Tyler Technologies and an update on progress made in Kerr County Tax Office 12 since last reported in January 2009 26 13 1.1 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to open bids for maintenance shop at Hill Country 14 Youth Exhibit Center 38 15 1.3 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on ProDoc contract renewal 39 16 1.5 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 17 acquire burn ban signs to sell to area residents at our cost 40 18 1.8 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to open 19 annual bids for road base, cold mix, aggregate, emulsion oil, and corrugated metal pipe 55 20 1.7 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 21 revised Census PSAP data and maps as prepared by AACOG for Kerr County 57 22 1.9 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 23 determine whether or not a policy change is needed in Facilities Use Policy for the Hill 24 Country Youth Exhibit Center to include all nonprofits listed under the 501(c) section of 25 the IRS Code 60 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) March 9, 2009 2 PAGE 1.10 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 3 request from Texas Arts and Crafts Educational Foundation to be added to the nonprofit list to 4 receive a reduced rate at the HCYEC 74 5 1.11 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve a resolution supporting use of federal 6 stimulus funds for Center Point/East Kerr County wastewater and water projects 86 7 1.12 Consider/discuss, accept Kerr County Sheriff's 8 Office racial profiling report 87 9 1.13 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action re- garding Westlaw contract for Kerr County Jail 88 10 1.14 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 11 approve memorandum of understanding for paving and for patient acceptance and transportation, 12 and allow County Judge to sign same 89 13 1.16 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on audit schedule for 2009 for Kerr County, with 14 an information packet on the powers, duties, and responsibilities of a County Auditor 90 15 1.17 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 16 request from AACOG for a letter supporting their application to TxDOT for a Job Access Reverse 17 Commute (JARC) grant 96 18 1.2 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to award contract for maintenance shop at Hill 19 Country Youth Exhibit Center 98 20 4.1 Pay Bills 100 4.2 Budget Amendments 115 21 4.3 Late Bills --- 4.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 118 22 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee 23 Assignments 118 5.2 Reports from Elected Officials/Department Heads --- 24 --- Adjourned 120 25 4 1 On Monday, March 9, 2009, at 9:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let me call to order this 8 regularly scheduled meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners 9 Court posted and scheduled for this time and date, Monday, 10 March 9, 2009, at 9 a.m. It is that time now. If you'd 11 stand, please, I notice we have Bill Blackburn here with us, 12 and we'd ask him to offer a word of prayer for us, if you 13 would, please, sir. 14 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. At this time, if there's 16 any member of the audience or the public that wishes to be 17 heard on a matter which is not a listed agenda item, this is 18 your opportunity to tell us what's on your mind. If you wish 19 to be heard on an agenda item, we'd ask that you fill out a 20 participation form; I believe they're located at the back of 21 the room, so that we will know that you wish to be heard on 22 that item. If we get to an item and you wish to be heard and 23 have not filled out a participation form, get my attention. 24 I'll see that you have that opportunity. But right now, if 25 there's anybody that wishes to be heard on any matter that is 3-9-09 5 1 not a listed agenda item, please feel free to come forward at 2 this time and tell us what's on your mind. Seeing no one 3 coming forward, we'll move on. Commissioner Baldwin, do you 4 have anything for us this morning? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I do, as a matter of 6 fact. Y'all might find this hard to believe, but there's a 7 possibility of a problem with the Little League, and 8 according to my conversation over the phone over this 9 weekend, it may stem from the agreement that Kerr County has 10 with the Little League over their property out there. So, 11 what I want to do is, Commissioner Letz and I are going to go 12 meet -- he doesn't even know about all this yet, but we're 13 going to go meet with them, hopefully this week, and just 14 take -- take a peek under the hood and see what it's about. 15 And if it -- if it is something that we need to look at 16 further, we'll come back and get permission from you guys to 17 carry it the next step. But I just wanted to let you know 18 that we're going to be out there looking at that thing a 19 little later. 20 And it depends on what our yard looks like soon; I 21 want -- something I've been wanting to do, I've been wanting 22 to have lunch on the grounds at the courthouse, putting up 23 some -- putting up some tables out in the yard and have some 24 of my friends -- musician friends come over and play for 30 25 or 40 minutes, and all the community come in and bring a sack 3-9-09 6 1 lunch and just sit down and have a little lunch, and -- and 2 we'll provide the entertainment. And we're -- I want to do 3 that, and I'm going to kind of watch for it. And, like, 4 maybe one day next month, do one, and then -- do three of 5 them, one a month. And then, of course, when it gets hot, I 6 don't want to be out there anyway. So, just kind of heads up 7 on that. The issue of the -- the plan for this downtown 8 area, I have very seldom in my life endorsed anything, but I 9 really, really like what I'm seeing over there and hearing 10 over there. And if the Commissioners Court ever gets the 11 opportunity to do a resolution in support of the plan, I 12 think -- I really think that we need to move forward and do 13 that. Great, great, great stuff. That's all. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Commissioner Williams? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Following up on the Little 16 League with Commissioner Baldwin, in addition to the contract 17 issues which you mentioned, right, I had a call from the 18 gentleman who's, I guess, the president of the league with 19 respect to some drainage issues out there, and whether or not 20 we could help them clean out that huge conduit that goes 21 through there that -- I guess that's Third Creek, is it not, 22 Jon? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, it is. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Seems like it's full of 25 brush and stuff, and it's giving them problems. So, Leonard 3-9-09 7 1 and I will meet out there with them to talk about that issue. 2 And -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, don't get over into our 4 stuff. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I won't. Don't you get 6 in the sewer pipe, either. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't worry. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, that's just corollary 9 to what you're talking about. There are some things that 10 need to be done out there. Also, what you said about the -- 11 the proposed plan for downtown here, the Judge showed me that 12 drawing, I don't know, maybe a month or so ago. Someone was 13 in his office talking about it. It's a beautiful concept; it 14 really is. And for the Cailloux Foundation to step forward 15 and for the hospital board to realize that perhaps the total 16 renovation of that building was a non-starter, I think all 17 that is good. Because what we need not have happen is for 18 that building to languish another couple years downtown, and 19 the devastating results of -- of all that non-activity 20 that -- that was brought to us by the presence of the 21 hospital. So, I think it's a good plan, and I'm hopeful that 22 the funding sources can be found and that the plan can move 23 forward. I heartily support the plan. That's all I got, 24 Judge. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Commissioner Letz? 3-9-09 8 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- just a little background 2 on Little League real quick. The lease out there was 3 originally negotiated in '86 and approved by the 4 Commissioners Court. It's the County's land, obviously, and 5 at that time -- and since then, a lot has changed. There was 6 one amendment to the lease in '97, I believe, which we added 7 a lot more property to it and changed some names and some 8 things, but no one's really looked at the lease itself, and 9 the lease was written by two attorneys, -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- primarily. You know, which 12 I guess makes sense, but it was Danny Edwards and Rit Jons 13 which wrote the original lease, and it's long. And, anyway, 14 so that lease ran for 25 years; it's up in 2012, and it may 15 make more sense to relook at that lease right now and re -- 16 and how the whole thing is structured out there. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you're talking about a 18 couple of rednecks taking lawyers and fixing this lawyer 19 stuff? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, you're on. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Basically. It's not a huge, 23 huge problem out there, but I think it's something that's 24 kind of been out there for a while; probably needs to be 25 done. Representative Rose has filed bill H.B. -- I think 3-9-09 9 1 it's 2167, which is the bill that I guess I've been somewhat 2 working on for the better part of a year and a half now. 3 It's going under Chapter 231, which would give additional 4 authority to -- that we've discussed previously, to -- I 5 think it's 15 hill country counties. I think it's 15 of them 6 right now. Representative Miller has signed onto that bill, 7 and there has been communication between Representative 8 Hilderbran and Representative Rose. Beyond that, I'm not 9 sure exactly where that part of it is. And I have been told 10 that Representative Rose may be filing a substitute bill at 11 committee, which may be part of the reason Representative 12 Hilderbran -- anyway, they're all talking about it. Looks 13 like the bill's going to at least get to a committee. If it 14 goes beyond the committee, who knows, but that's kind of 15 interesting, kind of following that. I hope it rains this 16 week. Gosh, we need it. That's it. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Oehler? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I guess I want to say 19 too that I really support the downtown plan, for a lot of 20 reasons, and one of them being that it will -- it will 21 promote business and put some business dollars on the tax 22 rolls, as opposed to what we have now, which is zero. And 23 the plan, it looks like, will be very good for business 24 development, and that in itself would be the first positive 25 that I've really seen that has been had for some lasting 3-9-09 10 1 effect on downtown. Of course, fires are still a problem. 2 We've had several recently, and I just hope that people will 3 be careful and please don't start any fires until this burn 4 ban is lifted, and hopefully we'll get some rain this week, 5 enough to make a difference. But other than that, just the 6 general regular things. The bridge -- bridges around the 7 Hunt area on 39 are going well. We did get notice that some 8 of our other bridges are going to get funded for the 9 so-called stimulus package. So, anyway, everything's going 10 about as well as it can, I guess, and hopefully we'll get an 11 update before long from the Attorney General on our Ingram 12 Lake problem with Mr. Vlasek. That's it. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, thank you. On these 14 bridges that have moved over to the stimulus, those were 15 under the Bridge Safety Act or some special legislative 16 things that occurred after the -- after the Minneapolis 17 failure, and suddenly there was this huge pot of money 18 available, and ergo the projects in west Kerr. I wish we 19 could use the stimulus money for something in addition to 20 that, but it's their money, and I guess they can move it 21 around any way they want to, and have done so. But on the 22 downtown redevelopment, as I'm sure the members of the Court 23 will recall, that was one of the major components of the 24 economic development strategic plan that we developed jointly 25 with the City of Kerrville, a major component of that. And I 3-9-09 11 1 think one of the amazing things about this more recent 2 development was that that hasn't been in the discussion in 3 making stage too long. It was originally starting to become 4 vetted last December, as I recall. So, this thing has come 5 along pretty fast, and pretty extensively. And in addition, 6 there will be some participation that we will be asked to 7 provide, I feel certain, under the auspices of the incentives 8 policy -- the economic development incentives policy. That 9 also -- those policies were developed jointly with the City 10 of Kerrville and also the City of Ingram, and -- and I'm sure 11 we'll be asked to do our part to assist that public and 12 private partnership. And as we should, because it is a major 13 component of downtown redevelopment that we so desperately 14 need. So I, too, am glad to see that come down the pike, and 15 I want to continue to gather steam and support from all 16 aspects of the community. Let's get on with the agenda that 17 we have. Initially, I'd like to go to Item -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 15. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 15. I know that Bill 20 Blackburn, who's here with us today, wishes to be heard, and 21 he's got other commitments, so I will call Item 15, to 22 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to adopt a 23 resolution to apply for 2009-2010 -- that should be 2020 24 Texas Community Development Block Grant assistance under the 25 Colonia Fund to complete on-site sewage facility replacement 3-9-09 12 1 in designated colonia areas of Kerr County. Commissioner 2 Williams? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. This is 4 the formal resolution that is required by O.R.C.A. to perfect 5 the application that we -- that the Court approved applying 6 for two weeks ago, and so I put it on the agenda so the Court 7 could adopt the formal resolution. Coincidentally, over the 8 weekend, I received an e-mail from Dr. Blackburn inviting me 9 to a meeting, and maybe some others of you were also invited, 10 in which he's talking about efforts to help low-income people 11 in Kerr County who live in substandard housing. And he's 12 proposing this meeting take place later this week. And what 13 caught my attention was the bottom line in his -- in his 14 e-mail that the amount of substandard housing in the county 15 is staggering, but there are great stories to be told of 16 people who are helping eliminate that. The reality is that 17 this particular CDBG block grant does precisely that, and in 18 a limited form. It helps people who cannot afford to upgrade 19 their septic systems do so. 20 I know one member of the Court expressed some 21 concern about how this process takes place. My understanding 22 is, of course, that the County is not directly involved in 23 the contracting and so forth, but we would be involved in the 24 inspections required on the O.S.S.F., and our part of the 25 in-kind contribution would be to waive any inspection fees 3-9-09 13 1 and application fees and so forth, and that would be our 2 participatory part of the CDBG block grant. So, I would ask 3 the Court to adopt the resolution, and there may be some 4 folks who want to speak to it, Judge. I move the resolution 5 as presented. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a motion to adopt the 7 resolution. Do I hear a second? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a second -- I'll 9 second it, but I have a question or two. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Dr. Blackburn, did you 11 have some comments you wish to offer? 12 DR. BLACKBURN: On my form, I think I said I was 13 speaking to 1.16. I'm speaking to 1.15. What we have found 14 is, as we are working with low-income families to help them 15 get their houses repaired -- and we have found so much 16 substandard housing in the county. And I would say to you 17 that part of what we're finding is, we're finding retired 18 people that have, you know, retired, that have lived here all 19 their lives, but never made much and kind of lived on the 20 edge, and now in retirement, they don't have many resources, 21 including keeping up their place. We're also finding some 22 folks who are retired here that may have been of some means, 23 and they don't have the means they once had. They either 24 have outlived their money, or because of the recent economic 25 downturn, there's just not as much as there was. The third 3-9-09 14 1 group that we have found a real need is single parents. If 2 you look at the poverty rate in this county and you factor -- 3 you look at single parents, households headed by a female, 4 particularly with children in the house, you're -- you're 5 often looking at a very serious situation in regard to their 6 income. 7 So, what I would say is, we're seeing a lot of 8 need. Unfortunately, the poverty rate, according to the 9 census, has increased in Kerr County. Not -- not, you know, 10 a huge amount, but somewhat. Churches are stepping up and 11 doing more and more all the time, and our meeting Thursday 12 night is about stepping that effort up with more a 13 combination of skilled and non-skilled workers to help folks 14 in substandard housing who are low income, and we've got some 15 really good leadership for that. And I applaud, by the way, 16 the Kerrville Church of Christ and their Fix-it Angels, who 17 are just already out there doing a great job, and we partner 18 with them and are able to supply some money to help them, but 19 there's a lot more help that's needed out there. So, I would 20 just say to you we got a lot of folks out there that need 21 some help. And, certainly, when those septic systems start 22 going bad, we got trouble. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: When is this meeting, Dr. Blackburn? 24 DR. BLACKBURN: Thursday night, second floor, the 25 Community Room of Wells Fargo Bank building. 3-9-09 15 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What time? 2 DR. BLACKBURN: At -- I'm sorry, at 5:30. 5:30 3 Thursday night. And we'd be glad for any of you to be there. 4 And I -- what we're doing in that meeting is organizing more 5 teams. Every project will have a team leader, and we've got 6 $25,000 from the Kemmerer Foundation behind the Comanche 7 Trace development to buy materials and so forth. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Any questions for Dr. Blackburn? 9 Thank you, sir. We appreciate you being here. 10 DR. BLACKBURN: Thank you. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Baldwin, you had some 12 comments? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do. I have a question. 14 You know, when we -- a couple of weeks ago, when we were 15 talking about some of these same issues, I think I heard 16 Commissioner Williams talk about the City maybe balking a 17 little because of lift station issues and some other things, 18 and I just want to remind everybody that there's an area out 19 in Kerrville South that we've had on the planning table for 20 over two years, maybe longer, but two years, and I would -- I 21 really don't want to see us get to a place where we're 22 bringing in a lot of area and not -- because of that, not be 23 able to do any of it. So, I just want us to be careful and 24 remember, and maybe -- you know, I'm probably sounding like a 25 protectionist, maybe. I don't -- I don't know. It doesn't 3-9-09 16 1 matter. I am. Because it's my precinct, and it's things 2 that we've talked about and planned on for a number of years 3 now, so if we add on too much, and -- and that causes the 4 plan out in Kerrville South to go sour, I just think that's 5 the wrong -- wrong way to go. I think that we need to be 6 careful how we take steps into this thing. I'm all for it. 7 I agree with Bill and everything that he said. I just think 8 we need to be real careful to where we don't get to the point 9 to where we're off -- we're asking too much, and the City not 10 allow us to have anything. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I understand your 12 point, and it's a -- that's a valid point. And this is 13 intended to help folks on an individual basis in areas where 14 a sewer system is not existent or not planned. And, so, what 15 we're planning in Kerrville South would exempt -- will take 16 them out of the mix, as well as the plans we have for Center 17 Point and eastern Kerr County; they would not be in the mix. 18 It would be for individuals that live in outer areas who have 19 problems, and this would help them. The example that 20 Grantworks has put that I gave you in the background 21 information, it kind of goes to the issues that Commissioner 22 Letz raised last time, and the cost of the tank is paid by 23 the grant. The initial inspections by the County would be 24 waived, as would the application fees, interim inspections. 25 And we don't -- we don't select the installer. We don't vet 3-9-09 17 1 that installer. We don't negotiate with that installer. 2 That all takes place between the individual and the 3 administrator of the grant, which is Grantworks. So, you 4 know, we're the facilitator, but we're not directly involved 5 in -- in the workings of it. The -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do have you have any idea how 7 much money is available for this program? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, total statewide, I 9 don't, but this grant is for a quarter of a million, and we 10 could spend up to that amount. We may not spend all of that, 11 if awarded that. And -- and when it really gets down to the 12 crunching, O.R.C.A. may require a survey of some type with 13 some estimate of what the cost might be, and then the grant 14 can be fashioned accordingly. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We do have areas that -- 16 where people absolutely don't have resources to fix failed 17 systems, and they're kind of trapped, and I'm in support of 18 what you're trying to do here. I think it's a good thing, 19 and -- and I don't know how else we could do it. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the County directly 21 couldn't do it without this kind of -- without this kind of 22 assistance. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the only -- and I'm in 24 support of it. The only slight concern I have is that I'm 25 still a little uneasy with the installers working directly 3-9-09 18 1 with these people who, you know, really may not be up to 2 speed on how to negotiate, what the cost should be. I don't 3 want them to be taken. I don't want the County to be 4 involved or the state to be lining the pockets of people that 5 may not be too scrupulous, and this is an area that you can 6 really get into that. So, I really would like some kind 7 of -- some kind of oversight on the overall project. And I 8 guess that we do have some -- some oversight through the 9 installation process, but normally we don't get that -- our 10 Environmental Health doesn't get involved with the dollars. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just a matter that it's done, 13 and done according to the rules. So, I sure would -- you 14 know, I think that needs to be brought up at Grantworks, the 15 administrator of it, that they are involved with the 16 individuals that are working with these installers. And a 17 lot of this all is great. I'm not trying to throw a -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Environmental Health can have 19 a role in that, too, because they would view those plans, and 20 if they see something that seems like -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, that could be 23 something they could do to kind of oversee the process, 24 especially in this situation. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I guess it's a real -- kind 3-9-09 19 1 of a -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are cost numbers included in 3 the plans? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the estimated. 5 Grantworks estimates, okay? For example, the tank might cost 6 $6,000, paid for by the grant. They talk about the 7 inspection fees and the application fees and so forth. 8 That's the only estimate of cost. Now, going to the point 9 that Commissioner Letz makes, and your question, we can sit 10 down with Grantworks and say, "Hey, these are our concerns, 11 and you have to address these concerns if you're going to 12 administer the grant for us." And -- and I'm certainly 13 willing to do that. We need to do that. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: As the administrator of the grant, 15 wouldn't they have an interest in doing that anyway? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I would think so. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there's also a little 18 bit of guidance we can give Grantworks on types of systems, 19 you know, near and dear to Commissioner Baldwin's heart. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, yeah, because you can 22 get -- you know, people that can't afford to put in a system 23 sure can't afford to operate some of these -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A maintenance fee. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The maintenance part of an 3-9-09 20 1 aerobic system. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to -- 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That goes on forever. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're welcome. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: The road goes on forever. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I know that. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And another comment I want to 11 make on what Commissioner Baldwin said earlier is that, you 12 know, it seems -- I don't know when our next scheduled 13 meeting with the City is, but we need to talk about this 14 whole sewer thing. I mean, their -- two of the councilmen 15 are telling me and Commissioner Baldwin that the City's 16 getting ready to change their whole policy on septic and 17 water and become county-wide on these issues, and every time 18 we try to talk to them, it's like the door gets slammed in 19 our face of just no capacity anywhere. So, I mean, it's a 20 real problem, and I think we're hearing two things coming out 21 of the City. This really needs to be resolved. It's a 22 pretty important issue. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We really need to. We 24 really do, because we're hearing mixed stories. We've got 25 plenty of capacity in the treatment plant. The issue, I 3-9-09 21 1 guess, is getting it there. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And I think -- you 3 know, we need to work with them on getting some funding. I 4 mean, I don't know how -- where the problem is, but I think 5 that -- when do we meet with them? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We don't have anything 7 scheduled. We need to do that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe as soon as the new City 9 Manager gets on board, maybe give them a month and then do 10 it. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can trade our -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Give him a month before you 13 hammer him. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can trade our one-half of 15 an ambulance for a pump station. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For a pump station. 17 Improved lift station. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: The half that you never got to 19 drive? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, anyway, probably June. 22 Early June, I guess. Then there's elections coming up, too, 23 on their side. All right. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Other questions or comments on the 3-9-09 22 1 motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your 2 right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 7 our 9:15 timed item, if we might. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Bill. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Dr. Blackburn. Consider, 10 discuss, and take appropriate action to sign a lease 11 agreement between the Texas Arts and Crafts Educational 12 Foundation, Incorporated, and Texas AgriLife Extension, Kerr 13 County, for permission to place propane tank and gas line on 14 Texas Arts and Crafts property for Texas AgriLife Extension, 15 master gardener's greenhouse. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's pretty 17 self-explanatory. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved for approval. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 22 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Seems like we should have done 24 this about four or five months ago before it got cold. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. So, there's a -- a 3-9-09 23 1 lease agreement between Arts and Crafts Foundation, Extension 2 Service, and Kerr County, and how many lawyers are involved 3 in this? 4 MR. WALSTON: Two. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Two, I see. Jon, you want 6 to take this one on, too? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pass. And we're -- I presume 8 our lease with Arts and Crafts has that we have to get 9 approval from them to do this on our property? 10 MR. WALSTON: When I approached them, they just 11 felt like it's the safest thing, just to be sure we have 12 everything documented and covered, you know, that -- in case 13 there was a problem later on. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I guess if they don't agree, 16 they won't sign the agreement. That's what -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's our property. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hmm? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's our property. 20 MR. EMERSON: I think it was leased to them with 21 their -- basically, they had sole autonomy over that property 22 to improve it and develop it and so forth. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kind of like Little League. 24 MR. EMERSON: My understanding from talking to 25 Craig Leslie, if we're going to put an explosive tank on 3-9-09 24 1 their property, they want a release. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Basically, they just want a 3 release, okay. 4 MR. WALSTON: And we had -- we had the propane tank 5 on our property, on our side of the fence, prior to that, and 6 then now that we've changed companies, evidently there's been 7 some changes in the regulations, and it can't be that close 8 to our building. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where do you plan to put 10 this, Roy? 11 MR. WALSTON: Where that -- it's on the back side 12 of the privacy fence from -- in that corner, kind of where 13 that nook is up next to the road. About 20 feet from our 14 privacy fence, and right behind their privacy fence. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Back in that maintenance area that 16 they have? 17 MR. WALSTON: Yes, sir. Yes, sir, in that 18 maintenance area. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's all fenced in? 20 MR. WALSTON: Not in the maintenance area, but 21 outside. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that all fenced in? 23 MR. WALSTON: Well, it won't be. It's not in the 24 fenced-in area of the maintenance -- of their maintenance 25 facility. It's on the outside of it. 3-9-09 25 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're going to have a few -- 2 it's an above-ground tank? 3 MR. WALSTON: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're going to have a few, 5 like, posts around so someone can't run into it? 6 MR. WALSTON: Mm-hmm, we can. I mean, there's -- 7 as far as -- I don't think there's that much traffic over 8 there, but -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd just hate to have a tractor 10 run into it. Tim can probably take care of that. Tim? 11 Propane tank might need a few posts around it. 12 MR. BOLLIER: I can handle that once it gets there. 13 You just want posts around it? Do you want a rail around it? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just think so someone can't 15 drive into it -- 16 MR. BOLLIER: Got it. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- with a tractor. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Blue and gold. 19 MR. BOLLIER: Blue and gold? Roy may have a 20 difference of opinion, 'cause he's kind of green and white. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We will. Blue and gold. 22 MR. BOLLIER: Blue and gold. All right, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I like orange and white, 24 personally. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Probably some state 3-9-09 26 1 regulation says it has to be white. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or comments on 3 the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 4 your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 9 MR. WALSTON: Thank you. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to our 9:30 timed item, 11 Item 6. Consider, discuss, take appropriate action regarding 12 further training from Tyler Technologies and update on 13 progress made in Kerr County Tax Office since last reported 14 in January 2009. Ms. Bolin? 15 MS. BOLIN: Good morning, gentlemen. Just an 16 update. We have undergone 10 days worth of training. Once 17 Tyler found out about the seriousness of our problem, they 18 paid for six days of it; we paid for four. I think that's 19 pretty good. There are some new things in the system that we 20 were unaware of that we got trained on, very intensive 21 training last week. They were there from 8 o'clock till 22 7:30, 8 o'clock at night doing training, so we got our 23 money's worth out of Ms. Black. I told Mitchell Spence when 24 he was here that it would take probably a year before I was 25 totally confident in their system again, because of the -- 3-9-09 27 1 our levy process, our tax statements, our delinquent 2 statements. These are all timed items per the law, so we 3 have to wait for those times to come around. It's not going 4 to be in a month, I'll know. So, I feel good about our 5 training. We found some glitches. The Appraisal District, 6 we discovered, was sending us supplementals to the roll that 7 were overlapping, which messed up my supplemental process and 8 our delinquent statements and supplement statements, but 9 we've worked that out with them. That's another one of 10 those. We'll get it once a month until we're in the busy 11 cycle, and then we'll get it more often than that. But right 12 now, it's a work in progress. And I feel much more confident 13 than I did when I was here in January. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can you give us an example 15 of an item that y'all found -- I think "item" is a bad word, 16 but an item that y'all found that you hadn't seen before? 17 MS. BOLIN: The -- the distribution process, we 18 have never used before. That was part of my predecessor's 19 determination. And my understanding of the way that it works 20 was that we had to use it every day and write checks every 21 day, which the entities don't want, and that's a lot of check 22 writing for us. But they revamped it, and there's a way for 23 us to disburse into QuickBooks so that the bookkeeping issue 24 is going to be much easier. We can do away with our pencil 25 spreadsheets. We've been doing it two different ways, and 3-9-09 28 1 it's making things a lot easier. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good, I like to hear that. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the glitches that were 4 brought to light, -- 5 MS. BOLIN: Mm-hmm. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: -- throughout the training process 7 that you've described to us, was there a rationale, because 8 of the training issues, that -- that explained how those 9 happened the way they did? 10 MS. BOLIN: Yes. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: And -- 12 MS. BOLIN: Now, the -- the statements that didn't 13 go out, like Commissioner Oehler's, that we didn't get out, 14 there were six other counties that had that problem. So, we 15 weren't alone, but we're the first ones that said anything. 16 So, they did get that fixed. The -- the issue with the 17 Appraisal District and the way they were sending us our 18 supplements was a very large part of the problem that we've 19 been having, and I've put myself on the agenda for the 20 Appraisal Board so that I can let them know the situation and 21 what's happening. Because it's not just us; it's with them, 22 and they know the situation. I've talked to the Chief 23 Appraiser; I've talked to his office manager and the person 24 who's now doing the supplement process. And the way that 25 they changed it to try to help us hopefully will take care of 3-9-09 29 1 the problem we've been having from them. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: So, the glitches that were found 3 and that came to light were resolved through the training 4 process -- 5 MS. BOLIN: Correct. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that you went through recently? 7 MS. BOLIN: Right. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 MS. BOLIN: With some changes to the system, 10 because of the way that their system calculated some things. 11 But they fixed those while they were here. They saw what we 12 were talking about and fixed them while they were here, and 13 it wasn't as serious as it seemed. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Are all the people in your office 15 now trained -- 16 MS. BOLIN: Yes. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: -- on the system? 18 MS. BOLIN: Everyone that's dealing with taxes, 19 yes. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And as you begin to 21 cross-train, which I assume you have in mind, you're going to 22 do that in-house? 23 MS. BOLIN: Yes. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That training? 25 MS. BOLIN: Ms. Hyde sat with us the first week 3-9-09 30 1 that Tyler was here and made notes, and what she wanted to do 2 was to make a training booklet. So, she sat with us through 3 the whole training process and got her little files for each 4 different thing that we did, as well as gathering our notes 5 with them, and she's in the process of making a book like 6 that, plus what we have in-house. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: So, you're confident that your staff 8 is now, to the degree possible, up to speed by virtue of this 9 training? 10 MS. BOLIN: Absolutely. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One other question, Judge. 13 Did I understand you correctly, Ms. Bolin, to say that 14 whatever issue was preventing you from reconciling your books 15 electronically has been resolved? 16 MS. BOLIN: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So that no longer are you 18 going to be required to tie up yourself and others trying to 19 reconcile your -- your accounts and so forth? 20 MS. BOLIN: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's good. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, this is all good news. 24 And I -- my only, I guess, comment is it took a long time to 25 get here, and there's been a lot of -- you know, I can't 3-9-09 31 1 count the number of e-mails I've read about this topic. And 2 it seems -- Tyler seems to be very attentive at this point. 3 Is there -- you know, how do we get there? Is it -- I mean, 4 I'm looking probably more to John, 'cause he deals with 5 Tyler, I think, more than anybody. Did they understand that 6 we're really irritated with them? Or -- because I think -- I 7 mean, Rex, you've had problems too, as I recall, in some of 8 your things, which is different, but with Tyler Technologies, 9 and it seems that if we can get their attention, that we 10 expect training and our issues addressed, it would sure make 11 our e-mail files go down substantially, the quantity of them, 12 'cause I get tired of reading about all these problems. 13 MR. TROLINGER: That's a good point, and I'm glad 14 you asked. The head of Client Support, Mitchell Spence, has 15 visited with every office that would meet with them. He 16 missed out on the County Attorney and the District Attorney. 17 They didn't -- they didn't meet with him, but the other 18 offices that did, each came with a list, and that list has 19 been prioritized. And, for instance, the Sheriff's list is 20 the most extensive. The courthouse list is probably the 21 smallest. And it looks pretty good from my viewpoint, that 22 the things that are on the list are going to be resolved 23 fairly quickly, and only one of them's a programming issue, 24 that we're asking for a program change. So, Client Support 25 can take care of all these issues for us, but it's on us to 3-9-09 32 1 keep up with this list and make sure that we stay on top of 2 it, that we get what we want and get these issues resolved. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, how -- what is the process 4 that we are instituting to do that? It sounds like the 5 glitches coming up -- I see Rusty getting ready to stand up. 6 MR. TROLINGER: There's a weekly conference call 7 with the Sheriff's Office, with the Tax Office, and then with 8 myself for miscellaneous items with the head of Client 9 Support to address the issues list to make sure it is being 10 prosecuted. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it sounds like we're 12 going on the right path. And my -- I guess probably to you, 13 'cause you're the person I look to when we have computer 14 problems, is that, you know, whatever department has a 15 problem, it may be not seem significant in the big picture, 16 but it's obviously significant to that department. We need 17 to get the problem fixed. Seems like Tyler Technologies is 18 willing to do it. There's a process they have to help us, 19 but we -- you know, and I look to you to be kind of the 20 coordinator, because you report to us. 21 MR. TROLINGER: I am the lead on each of the -- for 22 each of the conference calls and for each of the lists. And 23 while Ms. Hyde's here, I'd like to thank her. She was 24 instrumental in documenting and -- and assisting the Tax 25 Office with the 10 days of training that we had on-site. It 3-9-09 33 1 was really above and beyond the call, what she did, the 2 documentation and the -- and the help, the interface that she 3 gave us between the support and the Tax Office people. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Trolinger, is it -- because of 5 your position and expertise, is it possible that some of 6 these issues that arise in a particular department, if they 7 are brought first to you, that you could resolve some of 8 these issues with that department in-house? Now, I 9 understand that you've got telephone support and that kind of 10 stuff, but it occurs to me that, number one, you need to be 11 aware of these issues, first and foremost, because of your 12 position. And number two, secondly, you might be able to 13 solve them rather quickly, plus it gives you an opportunity 14 to have the big picture, the entire scope of problems that 15 we've got with the system, when you begin dealing with Tyler. 16 Would that be helpful if -- if these things were first 17 brought to your attention? 18 MR. TROLINGER: In some respects, yes. But we have 19 a system in place comprised of an electronic help desk on our 20 side, on the Kerr County side, and then an electronic help 21 desk on the Tyler Technologies side. I monitor both of those 22 and look at those lists. If someone calls in directly to 23 Tyler Technologies -- for instance, the Tax Office has six 24 items, I believe, on the list right now, on the Tyler 25 Technologies help desk. If I see something that stands out 3-9-09 34 1 on me -- stands out at me, I'll make a phone call and check 2 up on it. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: So, you're already in the loop on 4 that, is what I'm hearing? 5 MR. TROLINGER: Yes, that's the process we have. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 MR. TROLINGER: If there's a gray area between the 8 two, between client support and hardware or -- or the 9 desktop, then I'll usually get the first call on that. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: John, you -- in your 12 comments -- just one real quick question, Rusty. Want me to 13 get you a stool so we can see you? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: He is standing. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. You said 16 something about the County Attorney -- 17 (The Sheriff stood on a chair.) 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Be a big boy like us. 19 (Laughter.) The County Attorney and the D.A., Tyler didn't 20 visit with them. And both D.A.'s? 21 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And why is that? Why didn't 23 Tyler visit with the D.A.'s? 24 MR. TROLINGER: We weren't able to get an 25 appointment or get a hearing with them. 3-9-09 35 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did they refuse to meet with 2 you? You can say yes or no. Or you can nod your head. 3 (Mr. Trolinger nodded.) 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 'Cause I'd like to have that 5 answer. 6 MR. TROLINGER: I think so, yes. I think we were 7 -- the door was closed. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And do you think that -- 9 because I've -- from one D.A., I've heard quite a bit of 10 complaints. Do you think that if that door was open, that 11 you could have fixed their problem? 12 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Damn. I don't think I'm 14 following this whole thing at all, then. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'll put some light on it. 16 I'll put some light on it real quick. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The problem is, most of 19 these -- Mitchell Spence is new with Tyler Technologies. He 20 hasn't been there -- six months? 21 MR. TROLINGER: Twelve years. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: He hasn't been on the Client 23 Support. At least he never made it up that high. He's made 24 two trips down here in the last month, which has been great 25 that he's done it. But every -- and where your D.A.'s are 3-9-09 36 1 frustrated -- and kind of like I told him, seeing's going to 2 be believing. Because the whole deal is, our issues aren't 3 new issues. And as John said, Sheriff's office has the most 4 of them. They're the same ones that have been reported 100 5 times, and now they're taking -- I think somehow it finally 6 got their attention; enough people complained or -- or, you 7 know, I think some -- 8 MS. BOLIN: I think it was in the newspaper, and 9 they called them. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Things like that. And, you 11 know, it made it in the paper and got their attention; they 12 finally started sending some people. But I told them the 13 same thing. Seeing's going to be believing. Yes, it sounds 14 great right now. I told them if this works, I'd be tickled 15 to death, but I know from my department, if you -- you know, 16 we're going to wait and see if they really carry through with 17 fixing the problems. And I think the D.A.'s problem is, 18 we've gone through it for how many years now? And nothing's 19 been done, so they're just tired of trying. Everybody -- a 20 lot of them were at the point of giving up, but we'll see 21 where they are at this point. 22 MR. TROLINGER: Well, the D.A.'s have never made an 23 attempt to use the system. The County Attorney is fully 24 integrated with -- with the system. They use the prosecution 25 part, and what I was addressing, the prosecutor part, kind of 3-9-09 37 1 the middle of the -- of the three steps of the system. But 2 the Sheriff, for instance, he's got -- he needs to assign -- 3 for his issue list, he needs to assign a couple of people 4 that can -- that can stay after this issues list and that can 5 be the point people there, one at the jail and one at law 6 enforcement. And that's how the issues are going to get 7 fixed, because someone's going to keep after it and make sure 8 these things are done instead of just letting it go. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only issue, and where 10 we'll see what really happened, Buster, is over the years, I 11 think it's been recorded, 'cause they record all the issues 12 when we send them, and I think our office has sent -- over 13 the years, over 500 issues were on that list. And I asked 14 them for a copy of that list two weeks ago, and I won't get 15 it. Never will. There's no way they're going to let me have 16 a copy of that list, because a lot of mine is they came up 17 asking, "Okay, what's wrong now?" You know, "Give us a list 18 of your issues." Well, we've given them over so many years 19 that I can't even think of all of them right now, and so 20 we'll just see. It sounds good. I think we're -- we're 21 taking baby steps. I think we're -- we've taken the first 22 couple. But I really want to see what happens. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, it's obvious that some 24 people are getting fixed, so maybe that's a good sign. I 25 didn't realize you had that pistol on your hip. That thing 3-9-09 38 1 looks cocked. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just for you. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can sit anywhere you 4 want to, far as I'm concerned. (Laughter.) Golly, he is 5 rough, isn't he? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tough. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mean. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, gentlemen? Okay, 9 let's move on to Item 1. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Item 1? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Consider, discuss, and take 12 appropriate action to open bids for maintenance shop in Hill 13 Country Youth Exhibit Center. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Doggone, we got bids this 15 time. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How many? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One, looks like. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Looks like we got one bid 19 from Feller Fabrication. I assume it complies. It comes in 20 at 12,626. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move we accept the bid, refer 22 it to Maintenance Department for recommendation. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 25 indicated. Question or discussion on the motion? 3-9-09 39 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, is that that -- is that 2 that Danny Feller? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: It would be, yes. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Could be that Danny Feller. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Is he a member of the group that's 6 going to be out here at the courthouse picnic? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. No, he charges. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You have to get him pinched 10 down pretty tight where he doesn't charge. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Any question or comment? All in 12 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll defer 17 on Item 2, since I suspect Tim wants to at least take a look 18 at that. 19 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll come back to that, and we'll 21 go to Item 3; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 22 on ProDoc contract renewal. County Attorney. 23 MR. EMERSON: Thank you, Judge. We use ProDoc. I 24 believe I came to the Court for the first time two years ago, 25 and we use ProDoc as a forms finder for us. It significantly 3-9-09 40 1 increases our efficiency, allows us to take standard forms 2 and tweak them instead of going from scratch on a lot of our 3 contracts and memorandums. We have the opportunity right now 4 to renew with no increase if we jump on it, so that's why I'm 5 here before you. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval, and authorize 7 the County Judge to sign the contract. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 10 approval of the agenda item and authorize County Judge to 11 sign. Question or discussion on the motion? All in favor of 12 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll go to 17 Item 5; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 18 acquire burn ban signs to sell to area residents at our cost. 19 Commissioner Oehler? 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well I had a call from a lady 21 this last week in one of our -- one of my subdivisions in the 22 area, and it seems these burn ban signs are popping up in 23 other counties, and she was concerned that we don't have them 24 here, and kind of threw up a flag that I believe it's a good 25 thing to -- to consider that. Because, you know, that way, 3-9-09 41 1 if people that live in subdivisions, or, for that matter, a 2 lot of other places, if we want to make -- put up some on our 3 own, it would be a good thing too, but they're willing to man 4 the things and keep them current, whatever the ban is, 5 whether the ban is on or off. And they fold in the middle. 6 I had Road and Bridge do the research on this to find out 7 what the cost was and what they look like, and I think y'all 8 got a picture of what they look like. And Rex and I talked a 9 little bit, and he says they're in other counties all the way 10 to Brownwood. So, I think it's a good idea for us to do for, 11 I think, the citizenry, and especially in subdivisions, and I 12 think maybe we ought to -- we might ought to instruct Road 13 and Bridge to put up some of these in areas that, you know, 14 we could maintain and have somebody go by. You know, maybe 15 it's around some of our yards in our precincts, or somewhere 16 in the areas where they travel regularly where they could -- 17 they can open or close the sign, depending on what the -- 18 what the decision is on the ban at the time. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- and I've noticed the 20 one -- picture of one going into Comfort, Kendall County. I 21 assumed they were done by TexDOT, since they're on a state 22 highway, since I don't think TexDOT allows people to put 23 things on their -- signs that aren't theirs. I mean, I don't 24 know that. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Probably be a question for me 3-9-09 42 1 to ask TexDOT as far as putting up, 'cause I think putting 2 them on existing signs would be the way to go. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. You don't want to put a 4 bunch of signs everywhere. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I notice, driving around 6 the -- tooling around the territory, that going into Bandera 7 County, coming over from Boerne, you know, there's a sign 8 that TexDOT puts out that says Kerr County, Bandera County, 9 whatever county right there at the county line. And I 10 believe going into Bandera County, they had one of these 11 signs Commissioner Oehler's talking about, "Burn Ban in 12 Effect," right underneath that county, some kind of county 13 sign. And I would hope that whatever we do, we could include 14 that. That needs -- that needs to be done on every road 15 coming into the county, if possible. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Same thing going to Gillespie County 17 on 16. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. Well, I guess we're 19 just now getting to the point to where we need do something, 20 and that was the first thought. You know, the lady called me 21 and said, you know, "We'd like to buy one for the subdivision 22 and be in charge of manning the thing," take turns and 23 whatever. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like that a lot. And, of 25 course, that's what your agenda item says. 3-9-09 43 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: As far as the rest of it 4 goes, well, I'll talk to TexDOT and see what -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The policy is. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- what their policy is. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is the sign -- is the sign 8 for the subdivision the exact same sign as you'd put up if 9 TexDOT said yes? 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I would say so, one just like 11 in the picture here. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's on your backup. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what that second 16 thing is? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It looks like an official 19 state road sign; looks like the same size and everything. 20 It's made probably for that very reason. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it would be interesting 22 to find out from TexDOT who -- on the ones like this, who 23 flips it over. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it can be a -- that's a 3-9-09 44 1 -- as much as we change the burn ban, we could have anybody 2 running ragged. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 4 MR. ODOM: And the tort liabilities. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, and also if you have it 6 wrong. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have -- I tell you, you 8 know, you look at -- look at TexDOT and their -- and their 9 little signs that say "Subject to Flooding in Wet Weather." 10 That thing, they just leave them up all the time, because 11 they don't have the manpower to run around and fold them, 12 unfold them any more, or that's what's they say, you know. 13 I guess it's true. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: One thing they do have, 15 though, is they have a guy that goes around and picks up dead 16 animals every day, and he makes the run. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He's going to be going right 19 by most of those areas. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to, I mean, 21 figure out -- I don't -- if someone in the subdivision wants 22 to do it, that's great, be responsible for it. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's what I propose in 24 this, and that leaves it up to them, and they need to -- you 25 know, they want people in their area to know whether the burn 3-9-09 45 1 ban is on or off, for their own protection. And that'll stop 2 some of the phone calling. And sometimes those -- the web 3 site doesn't get updated, and -- you know, over the weekend, 4 and they don't know and that sort of thing. But, anyway, I 5 just thought it was a good idea. It's not really a cost to 6 us, but I do believe we need to do the installations on them 7 and make them consistent with our other signs. We don't need 8 to have residents coming in -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Putting them on cedar posts. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- putting them on rotten 11 posts, falling down. You know, it needs to go with the 12 signage that we -- that we use on the rest of the subdivision 13 roads. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Emerson, should there be some 15 sort of a memorandum of understanding with, say, a 16 homeowners' group in a subdivision that's going to be 17 responsible for monitoring and keeping the sign current 18 insofar as burn ban on or off because of the potential 19 liability issues involved? 20 MR. EMERSON: If the homeowners' association is 21 going to purchase their own sign and maintain it as a private 22 sign, then no. If they're going to act in the County's 23 capacity to keep that sign current, then yes. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: So, what I'm hearing from you is 25 maybe we need to have, as part and parcel of our providing or 3-9-09 46 1 installing the sign for them, some sort of a document that 2 they accept this not as an agent for the county, but rather 3 as private citizens for the information and education of the 4 citizens, homeowners, residents within their own subdivision, 5 and so that we resolve that issue. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What if you don't have an 7 official homeowners' association? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Another good issue. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the liability issue -- 10 I mean, I have kind of a hard time. I don't see that it 11 really changes a whole lot. I mean, if the sign is down, it 12 says the burn ban's in effect, but just because it isn't down 13 doesn't mean there's no burn ban. 14 MR. EMERSON: I don't think there's -- 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They're not supposed to burn, 16 whether it's up or not, whenever the burn ban is on. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That would be the only 19 problem. 20 MR. EMERSON: I don't think the liability is -- is 21 the big deal, because anybody that starts a fire is liable 22 for their own actions and the damages that can come from it, 23 whether the burn ban is on or not. The only issue that would 24 come up would be as to criminal citations that the Sheriff's 25 Department might write if we have officially 3-9-09 47 1 County-maintained signs that are not current. Now, if 2 they're maintained by private property owners, it won't have 3 any effect on that. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I like the private ownership. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One thing I talked to Len Odom 6 about, and this may work for, like, the homeowners' 7 association or groups, is we've started back up pretty strong 8 in the neighborhood watch programs, and remember how the 9 subdivisions used to have the sign on neighborhood watch? 10 When I was talking to Len, 'cause we wanted to get a policy 11 together that if these neighborhoods want to put a 12 neighborhood watch program in and have a sign, that they pay 13 for all the materials and everything, but Len's people would 14 install it, and set a limit to, like, two a month that he can 15 install, so it wouldn't affect his crews too bad to go around 16 installing. And maybe something could be worked on that same 17 signpost where you could put a burn ban sign on that same 18 one, and have these neighborhood watch programs pay for it 19 and monitor it. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Could be on a speed limit 21 sign, too. A lot of those subdivisions have speed limit 22 signs going in. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And you wouldn't have to 25 install another post. It would make it cheaper for them. 3-9-09 48 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Len's shaking his head no. 2 MR. ODOM: No, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Can't do that? 4 MR. ODOM: Not on a regulatory stein. You can't 5 put anything else on this 30 miles-an-hour. But, like, he's 6 talking about -- 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But the neighborhood watch -- 8 MR. ODOM: An advisory, you can put up to three 9 signs on it. But with the speed limits, that's regulatory; 10 only that sign that goes on that. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So that may be something, 13 'cause these groups are going to pay for their own 14 neighborhood watch sign and the posts, all that. And Len and 15 I -- kind of like years ago, the County did Crimestoppers 16 signs that way. We couldn't find that court order from the 17 Commissioners Court, but we were going to try and see what we 18 could find -- 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- about that. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The Sheriff at that time 22 didn't need court orders. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: More powerful than this one, I 24 guess. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I move that we allow 3-9-09 49 1 homeowners' associations or resident associations or private 2 citizens to purchase burn ban signs at cost, and the County 3 to install them. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 6 indicated. Question or discussion on the motion? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, yeah. I'm a little 8 bit unclear. Now, are they purchasing them from us? 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we're purchasing 10 or 11 20, or -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Purchase a few. And beyond 13 that -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A few? 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I would say buy -- 16 what, 10 at a time or something, Len? Eight or ten to start 17 with? 18 MR. ODOM: I guess so, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or five. I mean, some number 20 so that people can make them available. 21 MR. ODOM: How many -- may I ask this? How many 22 people have been talking to you that really want -- 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I only have one right now, 24 but I'm pretty sure there's going to be more. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There's going to be a bunch. 3-9-09 50 1 I've had a bunch ask why we don't have them. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because it's not been made 3 available before. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Falling Water has one. I don't 5 know where they got it. Well, it's in Kendall County. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But I don't know of a one in 7 my precinct. 8 MR. ODOM: Why don't we start at a half a dozen? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, six. 10 MR. ODOM: Half a dozen, six. Let's see what comes 11 up. That takes care of everything that you know of right 12 now. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 14 MR. ODOM: And then we go from there and see. 15 Because, I mean, it's not that the man doesn't go out, but we 16 don't want to be involved between crime watchers and -- and 17 "no dumping" signs and everything else, and all of a sudden 18 we start getting diverted from -- 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 20 MR. ODOM: -- what I'm supposed to do out there for 21 regulatory signs or street signs. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why we were saying a 23 policy where he would only have to install, like, two or 24 three a month, period, across the county. So -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, how long does it take 3-9-09 51 1 to get those once you order them, or do you have any idea? 2 MR. ODOM: We'd have to make them. We'd have to 3 get the blanks, and we'd probably put "Burn Ban in Effect" or 4 something, just put on it, that yellow sign. 5 MS. HOFFER: I think they got the quote on them. 6 Few weeks. 7 MR. ODOM: They're expensive with the flip-up -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: With the hinge on them. 9 MR. ODOM: With the hinge on them. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're $116. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question. 12 MR. ODOM: But it can be done. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It can be done. And even if 14 people had to wait a week or so to get one if you didn't have 15 any, I don't think -- you know, that's not a big issue. It's 16 a matter of, can they get them? And you can have them at a 17 certain time. 18 MR. ODOM: Working within a reasonable length of 19 time. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. I don't want you to 21 encumber your sign money now, having an inventory of signs 22 waiting for somebody to purchase them. 23 MR. ODOM: We'll probably have to come back for an 24 addendum if there's a bunch of them -- or what do you call 25 it? Budget amendment. Because of the way the accounting is 3-9-09 52 1 and all, it will use up my money, but I'll have to come back 2 to -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It will come back. 4 MR. ODOM: It comes out the same eventually, but 5 it's a different way of doing it. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: So, your motion would include half a 7 dozen, six? 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes, sir. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: That Road and Bridge acquire six of 10 those? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, Judge. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Commissioner, will your 14 motion also include Leonard contacting TexDOT so see about 15 getting a sign on roads coming into the county? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We can do that. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a separate issue. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. Let's do that at 19 another meeting. In fact, I can just talk to Mike and find 20 that out. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't believe we need to 23 make that part of the -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that if you would add 25 to it that the County Attorney prepare, like, a one-page 3-9-09 53 1 document that it's not a county sign that they sign -- that 2 people have to sign at Road and Bridge. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So your language that says 5 that Road and Bridge will get signs, poles, whatever, that 6 means that the money comes out of Road and Bridge budget? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But then they'll be 10 reimbursed whenever they're sold. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okey-dokey. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Motion to also include a -- 13 what? A letter from the County Attorney? Or a -- what do 14 you call that? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Agreement. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: An agreement that would be 17 signed -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Status agreement, probably. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- by each purchaser of a 20 sign. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Between Kerr County and the 23 resident or -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: And the resident. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Signs only? I mean, I see 3-9-09 54 1 two prices in here. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, signs will either be 3 put on existing or -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can get -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- installed. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you buy your poles by the 7 truckload of poles, so you get a special price kind of thing 8 for them? 9 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. Then we cut them up. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you purchase, you're just 11 going to purchase the sign. No? 12 MR. ODOM: I'm sorry, what was -- oh. 13 MS. HOFFER: We already have the poles. We use 14 them for other signs. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They already have poles. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's two different prices 17 on here, sign only or hardware -- 18 MS. HOFFER: All the hardware that's on there, 19 that's stuff we normally carry. The only thing we wouldn't 20 normally carry would be that sign. 21 MR. ODOM: It depends -- yeah, depends what the 22 situation is. If you just put a sign up, the costs 23 associated with that -- the brackets, the sign itself, if we 24 have to install the pole, there's a breakdown of the cost 25 totally for the County to do that. Labor, the whole thing. 3-9-09 55 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Satisfied? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not really. I mean, it's 4 going to be a storm of how much the homeowners' association 5 is going to pay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 184 if it's a sign and pole, 7 116 if it's a sign. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, he just got into 9 brackets and -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's all on the thing. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's all on there. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bracket costs -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm satisfied. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A set of clamps is $8.92. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm exited about it. I want 17 one. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question or discussion? 19 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 20 hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carries. Let's go to our 25 10 o'clock timed item; consider, discuss, and take 3-9-09 56 1 appropriate action to open the annual bids for road base, 2 cold mix, aggregate, emulsion oil, and corrugated metal pipe. 3 Okay. The first one we have is for base materials from 4 Walter Masters. Next one is for road base material from 5 Allen Keller. Next one is base material from Reeh Quarry. 6 Next one is for corrugated metal pipe from Contech 7 Construction Projects. Next we have for paving aggregates -- 8 all these are from Martin Marietta. Paving aggregates, 9 emulsion oils -- no, it says no bid. Okay. Base material, 10 and asphaltic hot mix/cold mix. Next one we have is 11 corrugated metal pipe from Texas Corrugators, South Texas 12 Region 2. Next one is emulsion oils from Ergon Asphalt and 13 Emulsions. And the last one is from Vulcan Construction 14 Materials for paving aggregates and hot and cold mix 15 asphalts. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I move we accept all 17 bids and refer them to Road and Bridge. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Further 20 question or discussion on that motion? All in favor of that 21 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 3-9-09 57 1 MR. ODOM: Thank you. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 7; consider, 3 discuss, take appropriate action on revised census PSAP data 4 and maps as presented by AACOG for Kerr County. Commissioner 5 Williams? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. We had a 7 meeting last week. Mr. Kruse came down from AACOG, and 8 Commissioners Baldwin and Letz and Oehler were there, and we 9 talked about the issues of the points that were raised by the 10 Commissioners with respect to the blocks and tracts map that 11 AACOG prepared for us. And the only thing that came out 12 subsequent to that was -- and I've spoken with Commissioner 13 Oehler about this. There -- we had talked about the -- one 14 of the boundaries splitting Tract 9603 has some illegal 15 boundaries along the northerly split. It was marked in blue 16 on the map, and seeing the boundaries as a combination of 17 private roads and non-visible boundaries to create a census 18 area. I spoke with Bruce about this, and he didn't know that 19 at the time when we -- we outlined that and so forth. Bottom 20 line is that we're moving it to 1340, which goes out -- out 21 that way, and that creates a good separation for that 22 particular block. Otherwise, all the things that were 23 discussed I think everybody understands, and are -- are 24 reconciled, and that will be the finalized map, unless 25 there's some other questions about it. 3-9-09 58 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Did he have an answer about the 2 lack of homes or too many homes in areas? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The four homes on Lane 4 Valley? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Four homes on Lane Valley. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I thought it was three. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Three. He was going to go 8 back to the City and see if he could address that with the 9 Appraisal District, that cluster of dots and so forth. Most 10 likely, in terms of the city -- within the city limits, they 11 were building permits that were issued for minor repairs, 12 additions to homes and so forth and so on, which created all 13 that -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Cluster. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- that cluster that looked 16 like a lot of new housing that really wasn't new housing. He 17 was going to clarify that. But that's not what goes on to 18 the census people; it would be this map that goes on to the 19 census people. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, a dot -- this dot could 21 have been just an added porch. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It could have been, yeah, 23 something like that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not necessarily a new 25 residence. 3-9-09 59 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I thought it had to be 3 building permits. It wasn't people only doing renovation. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not new, 'cause there's 5 just not that much new construction in town. So, I -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. Really, the only change 7 in my precinct was the division line they had proposed with 8 Wilson Ranch Road, which is not even hardly accessible any 9 more. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You can, but there's -- 12 nobody lives back there but about maybe half a dozen people 13 at the most. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably not recommended. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's not recommended to drive 16 through there without permission. (Laughter.) 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And also to follow the 18 creek. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, we took 1340 and saw that 20 as a better option. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, I'd move approval of 22 the PSAP data and maps prepared by AACOG for Kerr County for 23 subsequent submission to census when necessary to do so. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 3-9-09 60 1 indicated. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 2 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let's go to 7 Item 9; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 8 determine whether or not a policy change is needed in the 9 Facilities Use policy for the Hill Country Youth Exhibit 10 Center to include all nonprofits listed under 501(c) section 11 of the I.R.S. Code. I put this on the agenda as a result of 12 some previous discussions, and the Auditor was kind enough to 13 furnish us with a classification of -- of what these various 14 classifications were, 501(c)(3) through -- is it (9)? And 15 I -- I put a change in the policy on a draft basis that would 16 require they could be any -- any of those classifications. 17 But in addition to being that classification and providing 18 documentation that they were one of those classifications, 19 they also had to be placed on the list by the action of this 20 Court, on an individual basis, and there were some criteria 21 in making that determination, to include, but not necessarily 22 be limited to, the organization benefits the community, and 23 whether or not they have a local branch or office here in 24 Kerr County, or a local benefits-type test. And that's the 25 draft language you have in there. It would allow any of 3-9-09 61 1 those classifications to be eligible for approval, but -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 1 through 9? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Three through 9, whatever they are, 4 yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whatever it is. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: But the actual approval on each 7 individual case would be done by the Court, and that we would 8 look at local benefit criteria and -- and local participation 9 criteria, among other things, to make that determination. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So that if a social group, 11 which could be -- have a tax-exempt status, were to come 12 before us for a reduced rate, then we would apply the 13 language of this paragraph to determine community value, 14 basically, and if we determined that was the case, then we'd 15 grant it? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That would be only -- that would be 17 some of the criteria, but not necessarily all. The -- the 18 discretion would rest with this Court. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: And if the -- say it's a square 21 dance club, for example, a social group. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: And, obviously, the -- the funds 24 that were raised by the group were, say, to benefit a 25 scholarship program for local area students. I'd say that 3-9-09 62 1 would be an undertaking we would have. If the funds raised 2 were to throw a big riotous party for members of the square 3 dance group, then maybe not. If none of the members of the 4 Court were members of the group, we might look at it 5 differently. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. You say square 7 dancing? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No line dancing, though? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Square dancing. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Could be. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Chicken wing stuff. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right, let me ask you 15 this. You know we have an agenda item coming up, the Arts 16 and Crafts Fair that is asking for membership. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are they going to -- are 19 they going to be asked the question, "What benefit do you 20 have for the community? Do you offer scholarships or et 21 cetera?" 22 JUDGE TINLEY: If it's not obvious otherwise, yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just using -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Some of those things, we'll know. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- using them as an example. 3-9-09 63 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. And let's 3 pretend that they say, "Yes, we give two scholarships per 4 year." Are we going to ask them for proof, or do we take 5 their word for it? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think to answer -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a fair question. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I think you take people at 9 their word until you're given the opportunity to distrust 10 them. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree 100 percent. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I look at it a little -- I 13 won't say different, but I see that we're never going to not 14 give someone free use of the -- or a discounted rate. I just 15 don't see us ever crossing that line, because they're going 16 to come to us and it's probably going to be given. I'd 17 rather put some criteria in here that they have to give us a 18 tax return, give us some stuff that shows that they're real, 19 proof of what they use the funds for, and get it out of it 20 being subjective, 'cause I'm not real in favor of doing a 21 whole lot more than we're already doing, because we're 22 already losing money out there, and I don't like losing more 23 money and designating certain groups and giving them a 24 discount a little bit. So, I mean, I -- if we're going to -- 25 and I think this should be added to the policy even now. You 3-9-09 64 1 know, I don't mind expanding it, but I think we need to have 2 more information provided so that Jody doesn't, you know, 3 have to come to us all the time, and it's -- you know, she 4 can say, okay, yeah, you can get it, but you have to provide 5 this, this, and this. If you make it hard enough, they 6 probably won't ask for all that stuff. They don't have it. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think it's a good point. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just don't want -- you know, 9 I'm not real in favor of some of these social groups, 10 necessarily, getting discounted. Why should I have to 11 subsidize a social group going out there using that facility? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you're going to start 13 picking and choosing out of this 3 through 9 of who can and 14 who can't use it? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the -- I don't want to 16 pick and choose. I want to make it pretty tough for them to 17 get. It's not just you're a 501(c) something to get on 18 there. Then you have to have -- you have to provide some 19 documentation to prove that you really do what you say. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And offering 21 Commissioners Court free square dancing lessons and -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, that might work. 23 That'll work. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-oh. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How much -- wait, before we get 3-9-09 65 1 to Jody, how much do we discount it right now for these -- 2 MS. GRINSTEAD: You take off the entire rental fee, 3 so discount on the exhibit hall would be 350. But, like, 4 indoor arena is $500. The only thing we charge if they're a 5 nonprofit at this point is set-up and take-down fees, tables 6 and chairs, then insurance, security, that kind of stuff, but 7 we don't make any money off that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We might as well start letting 9 it go for free. 10 MS. GRINSTEAD: It really is a huge discount for 11 some agencies. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Tim? 13 MR. BOLLIER: My question is, you know, you keep 14 letting people come in there and we keep giving them 15 discounts and everything. Well, who's paying for these 16 people to go out there? The taxpayers. That's exactly 17 right, the taxpayers of Kerr County that are actually getting 18 nothing -- getting nothing out of it. They're just paying 19 for somebody to be in that barn. And most of the taxpayers 20 of Kerr County don't even know they're doing that. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. That's basically what 22 I just said. 23 MR. BOLLIER: I mean, that -- I don't know that 24 that's a -- I don't know that that's the fair way of doing 25 it. 3-9-09 66 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well -- 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We need to adjust our fees. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. You know, I 4 almost go back to the point, if you go to the Alamodome or 5 one of those things, I guarantee you, they're not letting Boy 6 Scouts get that thing free, or -- or something like that. If 7 you have high school football games there, they got to rent 8 the thing. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think they ought to pay 11 something at a minimum, maybe a minimum of 50 percent, if 12 we're going to start expanding the list. And I still think 13 they need to prove that they're -- 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's what I thought we were 15 doing, but I guess we evidently aren't. I must have missed 16 it. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are discounts greater than 18 50 percent? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Free. 20 MS. GRINSTEAD: What you've agreed to do is, you've 21 waived the base rental fee, so yes, in most instances, it's 22 at least 50 percent. When you guys revamped everything, 23 that's what you chose to do for nonprofits, especially with 24 the indoor arena. It's a huge discount, because they don't 25 rent tables and chairs, so you're not making any money off 3-9-09 67 1 that. They basically pay typically a $300 set-up/take-down 2 fee for the arena or whatever, barrel racing, whatever 3 they're doing. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. Give -- tell me what's 5 going to happen whenever -- what's the rate going to be for 6 the wild game dinner coming up April 18th, I believe? What's 7 the -- what's the total they're going to be paying? 8 MS. GRINSTEAD: I'd have to go pull the contract. 9 Do you want me to do that? 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What is it, around $1,100? 11 MS. GRINSTEAD: Because they rent all the tables, 12 all the chairs, so there you're going to -- there's where 13 their contract would go up in price. But they're not paying 14 for -- and if they're using the indoor arena and exhibit 15 hall, that's $850 you've waived. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. Well, in the past, 17 before this -- this time, before this year, they were paying 18 $165 for the whole thing, so now they're going to be paying 19 about 1,100, from what I understand, between 1,100 and 1,200, 20 which makes a lot more sense. Of course, there's a lot more 21 work. Tim has to take down a lot of stuff. He has to pack 22 the arena. You know, he's got to set up all the tables and 23 chairs and clean up and all that. But we're getting off the 24 item, aren't we? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not really. 3-9-09 68 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I don't know about 2 that, but -- you know, are we off item? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll, we're talking about nonprofit 5 status. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. So, I think -- 7 you know, if we're going -- if we're to the point to where 8 we're -- it's costing the taxpayers money for Sally Sue's 9 social dance club to go out there and have a function, I 10 would rather have the stock show, lock the doors, and open it 11 up the next stock show before I would want to spend 12 taxpayers' money on these weekend functions. If we can't 13 charge to where -- where we're at least paying -- and I'm not 14 talking about making money. At least break even. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't believe -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Lock the doors. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I believe that's what we're 18 doing, for the most part. On -- on those days, you know, of 19 what it costs to set up on that day, and what it costs to 20 tear down, I think that's where we determined that cost, is 21 what our actual costs were. But I do believe that we do need 22 to tighten up some areas, even more so than we already have, 23 and start charging enough to make a difference. At least -- 24 now, I don't agree that the taxpayers ought to subsidize 25 every -- everything that goes on out there. I don't think 3-9-09 69 1 that's right. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, we've covered this 3 ground before in terms of -- of this discussion with respect 4 to covering our costs, and we're not doing that. And we need 5 to go back to square one and take a look at -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let's revisit it on the next 7 agenda. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- well, I think 9 Jody -- we have to make some decisions on some of this. 10 We've -- this has been going on. I don't think we're losing 11 money, because the setup fees, which is where those costs 12 are, we're collecting those now, even for the nonprofits. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's the income side that 15 covers our -- kind of our fixed costs that's not being 16 covered by the nonprofits. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, and what we are 18 subsidizing is where our -- where all the cost is that we're 19 not recovering from rentals. All right. 20 MR. EMERSON: Can I make a recommendation? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure. 22 MR. EMERSON: That y'all make a decision today on 23 whether to include all nonprofits listed under 501(c) of the 24 I.R.S. Code. Put off the financial part till another agenda 25 item. 3-9-09 70 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I agree. 3 MS. GRINSTEAD: Well, it's all kind of one and the 4 same, though, because I need to figure out what to charge 5 based on their nonprofit status. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, to me, I'd like to leave 7 it at 501(c)(3), only get rid of 9 or whatever it was we have 8 on there. 9 MS. GRINSTEAD: Six. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Six. Get rid of 6. 501(c)(3), 11 period. 'Cause those are the bigger ones, seems to me, on 12 the list. The -- I don't -- better be careful with the words 13 I use here. Those are the bigger organizations, for the most 14 part. And it gets us away from the social clubs, some of 15 those other things that -- you know, I think we're going down 16 a slippery slope. So, I'll make a motion that we amend our 17 use policy to only include 501(c)(3) organizations. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Do you know what a 19 501(c)(3) is, before we second that? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's on my desk. I can't 21 remember. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Religious, educational, 23 charitable, scientific, or literary organizations, testing 24 for public safety organizations, organizations preventing 25 cruelty to children or animals, or fostering national or 3-9-09 71 1 international amateur sports competition. That's 501(c)(3). 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Charitable was in there, and I 3 think that's a good one. While it isn't in front of you, it 4 is on -- I didn't see it in here. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's the A, next one on the 6 agenda. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do literacy people square 8 dance? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sometimes. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Educational, Buster. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You have a thing about square 12 dancing over there. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, he brought it up, and 14 it's kind of like Buzzy's -- eating at Buzzy's, you know. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Jody, do you have a question? 16 MS. GRINSTEAD: Can we bring this back next time to 17 address those you've already approved if they're not 18 501(c)(3)'s? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think we can prejudice 20 existing contracts. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: If they've already entered into a 23 contract. 24 MS. GRINSTEAD: For this year. Next year, though? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or renewal of a contract. 3-9-09 72 1 MS. GRINSTEAD: Bring that back next time? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You can set the policy 3 moving forward, or for the renewal of any existing. Am I 4 correct, Judge? New policy? There's an affirmative nod out 5 there. I'm not sure to what, but there's an affirmative nod. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: A very disguised affirmative nod. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, right. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion. Do I hear a 9 second? That motion dies for lack of a second. 10 MS. HARGIS: I just wanted to say, 501(c)(3) 11 criteria is much more difficult to obtain, and that's the 12 reason for the others. So, it is -- it's very specific that 13 you have to be a -- you know, an organization involving 14 pretty strict criteria. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that we 16 leave the policy as-is, which includes 501(c)(3) and 17 501(c)(6). And (c)(6) includes business leagues, chamber of 18 commerce, and real estate boards. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, hold on just a second. 20 I think I'm there. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What it doesn't include -- want 22 me to read the rest of the list? Four is -- (c)(4) is civic 23 leagues, social welfare organizations, and local associations 24 of employees. (c)(5) is labor, agricultural, and 25 horticultural organizations. Seven is social and 3-9-09 73 1 recreational clubs. Eight is fraternal beneficiary 2 societies, and 9 is voluntary employee beneficiary 3 associations. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner, do you really need to 5 have the Court reaffirm an existing policy? I mean, that's 6 what's in existence right now. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's true. Well -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: (c)(3) and (c)(6)? You're 9 right. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No one seconded that one 11 either, did they? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, not yet, but, you 13 know, I'm working on it. But I'm looking -- like, on this 14 (c)(4), you have social welfare organizations. What's wrong 15 with them -- including them in this thing? Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second to 17 reaffirm our existing policy that our not-for-profits are 18 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(6). Any discussion on that motion? All 19 in favor of that motion, signify by raising your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we did absolutely 25 nothing. 3-9-09 74 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Nothing. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nothing. (Laughter.) 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In Washington, we'd be 4 heroes, though, you know? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Get a merit badge. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to our 10:15 timed item 7 that we were unable to get to in a timely manner because we 8 did nothing. Consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 9 on request from the Texas Arts and Crafts Educational 10 Foundation to be added to the nonprofit list to receive a 11 reduced rate at the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you a 501(c)(3)? 13 MS. CARR: We have a 501(c)(3); I have my proof of 14 501(c)(3). 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you have it in 16 triplicate? 17 MS. CARR: I don't, I'm sorry. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Signed in blood. 19 MS. CARR: But I would be happy to -- I'm sorry. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move approval of the agenda 21 item. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 24 approval. Question or discussion on the motion? All in 25 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3-9-09 75 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Would you 5 give that... 6 MS. CARR: I will. Thank you very much. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thanks for coming, Penni. 8 MS. CARR: No problem. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hi, Penni. Are you charging 10 the Bark for Life people? 11 MS. CARR: No. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. Bye. 13 MS. CARR: Bye. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Slipped that one in before 15 Rex caught us. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go back to Item 15. 17 Commissioner Williams has requested that we go back to that 18 item dealing with the resolution to apply for 2009-2010 Texas 19 Community Development Block Grant assistance under the 20 Colonia Fund. Eric Hartzell with Grantworks is here. There 21 were some questions raised. We passed the resolution, but 22 there were some questions raised about some of the aspects of 23 that. 24 MR. HARTZELL: Okay. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the primary question that -- 3-9-09 76 1 that I heard was, we don't want any individual homeowners who 2 are in need of this kind of assistance to be put into a 3 position where they're dealing -- those folks, to some 4 degree, are going to be less sophisticated in business 5 dealings, and they're going to be dealing with some of these 6 installers, 'cause we're not involved in that. And will 7 Grantworks, as the administrator of that grant, be overseeing 8 those contracts with those installers to make sure that they 9 are fair and there's not overreaching on the part of the 10 installers? 11 MR. HARTZELL: Okay. "Overreaching" in terms of? 12 There will be a set price, and the installers will all -- 13 we'll manage the bid process -- is that what you mean? -- to 14 make sure that there's a fair price. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Charged by the installer for the 16 installation of the new system? 17 MR. HARTZELL: That's right. And then the -- yeah, 18 there will be a standard contract that will be -- that will 19 be -- that's been used in all the other counties that have 20 done this between the installer and the homeowners. That 21 does have some additional protections, probably more than 22 what they would get under a normal contract with an 23 installer. There's a warranty as well that's -- that's put 24 on the installation. And then, of course, the County's 25 inspector would still do their normal functions, making sure 3-9-09 77 1 everything was in the ground correctly, however y'all handle 2 those -- that process. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: But the cost of installation will 4 also be a part of that agreement? 5 MR. HARTZELL: Right. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That you would insure that that cost 7 is reasonable based on a bid basis? 8 MR. HARTZELL: Yes. And the grant will allow for 9 change orders if there is some unforeseen -- you know, y'all 10 have a lot -- you guys have a lot of rock and other things 11 that might pop up once they get into the ground, and we can 12 do a change order and use grant funds to cover any overage, 13 so there won't be any cost to the homeowner themselves. One 14 thing that we run into every once in a while is if you have 15 a -- the need for an aerobic system. In this case, the 16 homeowner would choose whether they want to go forward or 17 not, because there can be some higher costs of maintenance. 18 I don't know if y'all have very many aerobic -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot. Too many. 20 MR. HARTZELL: There's a lot? 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Way too many. 22 MR. HARTZELL: And it's usually only if the lots 23 are really small or the soils are completely inappropriate 24 that they have to install them. But -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're the -- they're the 3-9-09 78 1 preferred system sold by the installers, 'cause they're 2 profitable for them. 3 MR. HARTZELL: Okay, yeah. What we would -- 4 there's a soil -- the soil and site evaluator will be an 5 independent party, and so they -- they'll be the one that 6 would make the determination as to which system would be 7 necessary. But they wouldn't be allowed -- a lot of times 8 the soil and site people have a side business of doing the 9 installation too. That's not allowed. Yeah, we keep that 10 totally separate. There would be one soil and site evaluator 11 that would be hired by the County for all the systems -- all 12 the folks on the list, and then that person would be 13 independent of the actual installers, who would be separate. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hired by the County, but 15 paid by the grant? 16 MR. HARTZELL: Paid by the grant, yes. Yes, very 17 important point, right. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You beat me to it. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just wanted to make sure. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Eric, could we -- is it 21 possible to do our -- do the -- I guess, the bid process to 22 exclude aerobic systems? Because there's almost -- I can't 23 think of a situation when you cannot do another system. It 24 may cost more, but you can do it. And I -- and I don't -- 25 I'm not sure that that's always put forward to the 3-9-09 79 1 homeowners. 2 MR. HARTZELL: Right. Yeah, that would be 3 something -- we do the guidelines for the program. Then, 4 once it's funded, that's something we'll include -- we can 5 include in the guidelines, that aerobics will be -- we just 6 say they're not -- we won't bid them. They'll have to be 7 installed as a regular drainage -- drainfield system. If 8 there's absolutely no way that we could replace what's there 9 with a -- because of the lot size, that's usually the only 10 thing that limits it, really, small lots. Then we could -- 11 we could have it come back to the Court; y'all could decide 12 at that point if it's going to be too big of a burden on the 13 homeowner on the back end. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Could we have, at some point, a 15 workshop when we have the Environmental Health manager up 16 here -- or executive director, I think he's called nowadays, 17 up here at some point, and kind of go over these -- I mean, 18 he's the one that really needs to be involved in what works 19 and what doesn't work. I don't want to make this process so 20 it doesn't work at all. So -- but aerobics is not, 21 certainly, my favorite type of system. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Eric, when are the rules 23 set? After the grant has been awarded, or prior to the grant 24 being awarded? 25 MR. HARTZELL: The rules will be set after the 3-9-09 80 1 grant's awarded. There -- the only requirements of the grant 2 are that we target the lower income people. That's their 3 only threshold. Beyond that, the County gets to make 4 whatever rules you want as far as who gets the assistance, 5 what kind of -- that's all very flexible. To be honest, 6 we've done, I guess, maybe 12 of these around the state, and 7 we pretty much are the only ones that do these -- the only 8 company that does them, so we kind of do the rules and the 9 State does -- they do what we ask them, usually. We don't 10 have any problem with flexibility. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Funny how that works. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, if we get a letter 13 advising us we've been awarded that grant, we can call you 14 and do a workshop with our Environmental Health people? 15 MR. HARTZELL: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We can go over all these 17 issues. 18 MR. HARTZELL: We would definitely want that. 19 That's the most critical part of these being successful, is 20 getting the Environmental Health people on board and 21 coordinated. And every county's different. Everybody has, 22 certainly, different procedures and how they handle their 23 processes, and some -- some are real sophisticated. 24 Guadalupe County is probably similar to you guys; you each 25 have your own professional staff. Other counties have -- we 3-9-09 81 1 actually had one county had to go out and hire an inspection 2 person; they've never had an inspector before. They've never 3 inspected before, probably. That was in South Texas. And, 4 so, they now have an inspector full-time. So, anyway, we 5 certainly will do that. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Make sure everything is 7 black and white to the extent we can do so, and eliminate the 8 gray, or eliminate any opportunities for people to be taken 9 advantage of. 10 MR. HARTZELL: Right. Exactly, yeah. We 11 definitely would want to work that way, too. These things 12 can be -- these are difficult projects for us to manage, 13 'cause we're dealing with all these different individual 14 homeowners, and so the clearer we can be at the beginning 15 with the rules, the better. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If you can wait around for 18 a couple minutes, we can probably get that -- that resolution 19 signed, and they can take it back with them. 20 MR. HARTZELL: Okay, thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask a question -- or 22 somebody a question. Can we -- could we lay down a map of 23 Kerr County and pinpoint the colonia areas? 24 MR. HARTZELL: Right. We have maps of those that 25 we did in that plan -- the plan a few years ago, I'm sure you 3-9-09 82 1 remember. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do. 3 MR. HARTZELL: And those areas were outlined in 4 that plan. And so the ones that are mentioned -- I believe 5 I'd sent something to y'all, maybe after the last meeting. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, it's in there. 7 MR. HARTZELL: That had a list of the area. I can 8 read them to you. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And how do we -- how do we 10 -- once we get the grant, or apply for the grant, how do we 11 prioritize which areas -- colonia area is first and which is 12 second and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? 13 MR. HARTZELL: Yeah. The folks who -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three and four go first. 15 MR. HARTZELL: Right, do it by precinct. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, this is one. Wrong. 17 Wrong, wrong, wrong. (Laughter.) Do you enjoy being here? 18 MR. HARTZELL: I do, actually. To be honest, I'm a 19 little worried about -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not signing a damn thing 21 yet. 22 MR. HARTZELL: I'm a little worried about not 23 getting enough applications in Kerr County. Y'all don't have 24 a tremendous number of folks in these eligible colonia areas, 25 mainly because Center Point is probably where the biggest 3-9-09 83 1 need would be, the most concentrated, besides Kerrville 2 South, which already has sewer, and then Center Point's 3 getting sewer in the next few years. So, we would 4 recommend -- what we recommended in here is to exclude the 5 areas that are either -- obviously, if there's already sewer, 6 they wouldn't be eligible, or if they're imminently going to 7 receive sewer, there's plans to receive centralized sewer, 8 they would be excluded. And this doesn't leave you a 9 tremendous number of areas left. We're doing a similar 10 project in Tom Green County that has a colonia area 11 population of triple, probably, Kerr County's, and we got 12 about 40. So, I'm figuring 20, 25 is what we would see here. 13 So, as far as prioritizing, we would prioritize by household 14 based on the guidelines that we talked about earlier. If you 15 say okay, well, we know they have to income-qualify, so -- 16 and we think we may have more than we can do with our money, 17 let's say elderly would be the next priority, and then maybe 18 large families who, you know, need it. You could do that. 19 You would have -- prioritization won't be by area; it would 20 be more by income, or the individual households. You could 21 also prioritize if you had particularly environmentally 22 sensitive issues. It's all up to you. We could tailor it 23 however you'd like. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You could do it by area that 25 has been in the plan for a number of years? 3-9-09 84 1 MR. HARTZELL: Sure. I mean, the -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kerrville South. 3 MR. HARTZELL: Right. Right, Kerrville South. And 4 you're talking about the -- like, the area west of Camp 5 Meeting? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 7 MR. HARTZELL: Yeah. That's probably the largest 8 area that is on the list, in fact. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That would probably be -- 10 MR. HARTZELL: It's going to be the most -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Be the top of the list, 12 wouldn't it? 13 MR. HARTZELL: Yeah -- I mean, it can be. That's 14 your decision. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the decision is 16 officially made. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pretty clever 18 gerrymandering you did there, Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, thank you. Do you and 20 I need to speak in private? 21 MR. HARTZELL: I'll do whatever you guys want. 22 Just let me know. But, yeah, definitely, when we set up the 23 guidelines, if there are specific areas that you feel are, 24 you know, higher priorities than others for whatever reason, 25 the Court can make those decisions. 3-9-09 85 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Eric. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Appreciate it. 4 MR. HARTZELL: Thank you. Good to see you guys. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How many years have you been 6 coming around? We've been dealing with you several -- 7 MR. HARTZELL: It's been 10. We started in 1999. 8 Does that sound right, Commissioner? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: About right. 10 MR. HARTZELL: In Kerrville South, the first grant 11 was in 2000, so it would be have been '98, '99. So, you guys 12 have -- well, all of you have been here the whole time, yeah. 13 Wow. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I've been gone for a while. 15 MR. HARTZELL: You were here and back, right. I 16 wanted to say just real quick -- I'm sorry to take a little 17 bit more time, but I heard from a mutual friend of ours, Jim 18 Brown, that you just celebrated your 50th anniversary, and I 19 wanted to congratulate you. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bad news travels fast. 21 MR. HARTZELL: Right. (Laughter.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Why don't we take about a 23 15-minute recess. 24 (Recess taken from 10:40 a.m. to 10:58 a.m.) 25 - - - - - - - - - - 3-9-09 86 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to order from 2 our recess. Let's go to Item 11; consider, discuss, and take 3 appropriate action to approve a resolution supporting use of 4 federal stimulus funds for the Center Point/East Kerr County 5 wastewater and water projects. Commissioner Williams? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. Judge, this is a 7 rework of the resolution that was originally before the Court 8 as a joint resolution with the City of Kerrville, and which 9 you will recall I reported to the Court was turned down by 10 the City of Kerrville for reasons earlier expressed. And so 11 I brought it back, reworked it, talked about the current 12 status of the stimulus bill, identified the bill, and made it 13 solely a Kerr County resolution. And it -- it identifies in 14 the resolution the fact that the Texas Water Development 15 Board has approved us as a -- for funding under the EDAP 16 program, and that they've awarded planning and for 17 preliminary engineering money, so that's kind of what it's 18 all about. That's the way the new resolution has been 19 fashioned, and if we're still of a mind to try to get some 20 additional stimulus funding, maybe we can move this on. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: And you're moving approval? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I will move approval. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I see a question coming. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, a second. I was waiting. 3-9-09 87 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. We have a motion and 2 second for approval of the resolution as presented. Question 3 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 4 raising your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 9 Item 12; consider, discuss, and accept Kerr County Sheriff's 10 Office racial profiling report. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't know if she did that 12 e-mail. Do y'all have a copy of it or not? Here are 13 several. I don't know if it came as an attachment on your -- 14 the only issue I have with it, and you just have to accept it 15 as-is, is it's another one of those Odyssey problems where it 16 -- I believe it's supposed to also reflect the number of 17 warning citations, not just actual citations. It's any 18 traffic encounters. And since we have video cameras, we're 19 not required to have it, but it should be on there, and it 20 doesn't reflect the warnings; it just reflects the ones that 21 were actually issued. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval of the agenda 23 item. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 3-9-09 88 1 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 2 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 7 Item 13; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 8 regarding Westlaw contract for Kerr County Jail. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This is the same item we had 10 on the agenda last time that we had a hitch in the contract. 11 Rex says we've got them squared away. Rex has looked at it. 12 We've agreed on the contract, and so it's just time for 13 approval. The only thing I need to know, since this is jail 14 commissary funds, is it a contract that the County Judge 15 still needs to sign, or do I as Sheriff need to sign it? Or 16 does it matter? 17 MR. EMERSON: Sheriff doesn't have the authority to 18 sign a contract obligating the county. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval of the agenda 20 item, authorize County Judge to sign same. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 23 indicated. Question or discussion on the motion? Even 24 though these are commissary funds, they're considered to be 25 in the custody of Kerr County; is that correct? 3-9-09 89 1 MR. EMERSON: That's my understanding. And the 2 contract itself is actually kind of written with the County. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Which is fine. There's 5 actually two accounts, one for the inmates themselves. One's 6 for my one jail personnel, Stan Braton, who assists the 7 inmates with everything. He had to have his own identifying 8 stuff for that contract also. But it's all coming out of 9 Kerr County Jail commissary account, and it's all the same 10 account number. There's two different -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Further question or discussion? All 12 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 17 Item 14; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 18 approve the memorandum of understanding for paving and for 19 patient acceptance and transportation and allow County Judge 20 to sign same. This was placed the agenda and as a result of 21 some issues that arose in connection with the road out at the 22 new crisis stabilization unit. The memorandum of 23 understanding was -- my understanding, that was prepared by 24 the County Attorney. It has been approved by the Executive 25 Director of the Hill Country Community M.H.M.R. Far as I 3-9-09 90 1 know, there are no issues at this point. Is that correct, 2 Mr. Emerson? 3 MR. EMERSON: That's my understanding, Judge. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 7 approval. Question or discussion on the motion? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The money's still coming out 9 of Kerr County taxpayers' -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Road and Bridge to -- to do the road 11 work. Further question or discussion? All in favor of the 12 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 13 (Commissioners Williams, Letz, and Oehler voted in favor of the motion.) 14 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I oppose. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll go to 18 Item 16; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on 19 audit schedule for 2009 for Kerr County, with an information 20 packet on the powers, duties, and responsibilities of County 21 Auditor. Information is being submitted to Commissioners 22 Court, as well as to all department heads and elected 23 officials. 24 MS. HARGIS: I'm actually passing a new one around. 25 The first one I did was stopped at, I think, either 23 or 29, 3-9-09 91 1 'cause I didn't think you really wanted to know about my 2 Adult Probation and -- and Juvenile Probation. So, I've 3 added those pages for you; it's just for information. I just 4 felt that it was -- that -- we went to this seminar, and they 5 provided us with this information, which I felt was good, so 6 that it helped not only myself and my staff, but the other 7 elected officials to understand the audit function of our 8 office. So, it's just an informational packet. And I have a 9 schedule behind there, which is a very aggressive schedule. 10 Hopefully, we'll get around to everybody. But there are only 11 two of us, so we're going to do our very best. And I'll be 12 glad to answer any questions. It's really just an 13 information packet. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I read the submission that 15 you put out prior to this one. What's new in this one? 16 MS. HARGIS: It's just some additional pages that 17 they -- additional pages that talks about my additional 18 duties that I think you might be interested in, but the rest 19 of them wouldn't be, which is -- talks about how we're 20 supposed to do Adult Probation audits, how we're supposed to 21 do Juvenile Probation audits, commissary, the other -- the 22 D.A.'s office, the forfeiture funds and things of that 23 nature, which I didn't really think that the general populous 24 of the courthouse really was interested in. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second question is, all of 3-9-09 92 1 these departments -- elected officials and departments that 2 you have identified for audit, that is -- that is, then, the 3 entire county system; is that correct? 4 MS. HARGIS: Yes. Yes, sir. It's just -- it's all 5 the ones who have cash or anything that would be necessary to 6 audit. If there's nothing there to audit, which doesn't -- 7 almost every department has something that we need to -- to 8 see either their procedures or something, how they purchase. 9 Some of them aren't going to take very long. Some of them 10 will take a little bit longer. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And it is your -- and what 12 you're telling the Court is that it needs -- each of these 13 instances supported by this other document, that all of these 14 various types of audits that you have identified here for all 15 these various departments are prescribed in state statute; is 16 that correct? 17 MS. HARGIS: They are. And we're only doing 18 certain types of them this year because we -- we're a small 19 staff. We can't do everything, so we're only doing certain 20 phases of -- of an audit this year, just like we did last 21 year; we only did cash. And this year, we're doing internal 22 control and -- in some of them; in some of them, more things. 23 So, as we get more experienced ourselves, we'll -- but we 24 will put that calendar out every year at the beginning of the 25 year, and we will work with every elected official prior 3-9-09 93 1 to -- to having the audit. Diane and I just had discussed 2 hers, and we -- we're not there to interrupt their daily 3 operations; we're there to help them, so that's what we're 4 going to do. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Any or question or discussion on the 7 agenda item? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- on your list -- well, 9 here it is. Last year there was issues about -- or what do 10 you call those things we have -- you have? Emergency 11 districts? 12 MS. HARGIS: The ESD's. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: ESD's. 14 MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir. One ESD has been completed; 15 they have their packet. The ESD number -- excuse me, ESD 16 Number 2 is complete. ESD Number 1 just finished bringing us 17 their information Friday, and so we are working on those 18 simultaneously. We are trying to give them a very nice 19 packet this year. I believe -- I asked Irene earlier; they 20 have received theirs in ESD 2, and they seem to be pleased 21 with the product. We talked about it before. And what we've 22 also done with the ESD's is, we have offered -- and I 23 purchased, out of my own budget, QuickBooks, and we are -- we 24 put ESD 2 on QuickBooks, and quarterly, they're going to 25 bring in their checks and we're going to put it on there so 3-9-09 94 1 that they will have financial statements to hand out to their 2 board on a quarterly basis. And we've offered that as a 3 helping hand to them. We've also offered that to ESD 1, 4 which they're -- they're excited about, because sometimes 5 they get computer-savvy folks that are treasurers, and 6 sometimes they don't. This way they will -- and it will also 7 facilitate us having the documentation throughout the year, 8 and it will make it faster for us to complete their audit at 9 the end. All we'll then need is their minutes and a few 10 other things. So, they both seem to be very pleased with 11 that aspect of it. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any action by the Court that you 13 need to request of us, or is this informational only? 14 MS. HARGIS: This is only information. I just 15 thought it -- Judge Prohl and I discussed it. He just 16 thought it would be a good idea that everyone kind of knows 17 our duties and responsibilities. And that doesn't mean we 18 get to all of them, but they're there. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I appreciate the information 20 on the Matagorda County Seawall Commission. 21 MS. HARGIS: Okay, thanks. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is very important. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Has that been bothering 24 you? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's been bothering me; I 3-9-09 95 1 haven't slept in days. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let the record reflect that 3 all of a sudden, after we requested an Attorney General's 4 opinion on audit of ESD's, it got done, but we haven't had 5 the -- the determination yet from the Attorney General. I 6 don't know why it took a year and a half to get something 7 done that only took a very short time. 8 MS. HARGIS: The -- we have, in fact -- 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is that one of your duties 10 too, or is that just more -- 11 MS. HARGIS: No, sir. It is -- we did not perform 12 an audit. We performed an internal audit of procedures, and 13 that is what I was recommended to do, and that's what I have 14 done. It is not an audit that an external auditor that you 15 would hire externally would do. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 17 MS. HARGIS: It would be the same as -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Evidently, it satisfies what 19 needs to be done. 20 MS. HARGIS: I got -- 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And it just took you a year 22 and a half to do it. I don't understand why. Enough of 23 that. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Where do you see Matagorda County, 25 Commissioner? 3-9-09 96 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's back in here, about a 2 seawall -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, it's a seawall 4 commission. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, I see it. Navigation districts. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, we needed to know that. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm kind of wanting to get 9 on that dadgum commission. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't you get on the 11 South Padre one? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Haven't thought of that. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Why don't we go to Item 17; 14 consider, discuss, take appropriate action on request from 15 AACOG for a letter supporting their application to TexDOT for 16 a Job Access Reverse Commute -- that's got the acronym 17 JARC -- grant. I put this on the agenda at the request of 18 the AACOG folks. They're wanting to put this commuting 19 transportation service in place, and they're soliciting 20 support for that and have asked us to write a letter of 21 support, as it were. And there's a draft of that that is 22 attached, of course, to your -- to your material. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a good project. It's 24 in place in other counties, Judge, as you know, and it helps 25 people get to and from work, you know, who otherwise have 3-9-09 97 1 transportation issues. So, you're looking for approval of 2 this grant application? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what they seek, is our 4 issuing the letter in the draft that's attached. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would move that Kerr 6 County Commissioners Court correspond with AACOG with a 7 letter supporting their application to TexDOT for a -- for 8 Job Access Reverse Commute funding, JARC funding. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This letter here? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That draft, yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I second it, with a 13 question. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Question 15 or discussion? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there -- is there a 17 further commitment of any sort from this Court? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not that I'm aware of. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: One thing that might be relevant 22 here is, when we were doing our economic development 23 strategic plan, information gathered in our survey, we 24 determined that approximately 20 percent of the people 25 employed in Kerr County are employed outside of Kerr County. 3-9-09 98 1 That same number, plus or minus, holds true for other 2 counties. We have a number of employees in this county that 3 live in Gillespie County, that live in Bandera County; some 4 live in Kimble County, some in Kendall and others, counties 5 other than Kerr. And this, of course, from the standpoint of 6 assisting workers that want to work in Kerr County, but who 7 live outside of Kerr County, might assist them in their 8 transportation needs. But we have a very mobile work force 9 now, and all of the counties, Kerr and surrounding counties, 10 have that similar characteristic with the mobile work force, 11 so we're all similarly situated. Any other questions or 12 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 13 your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. I believe 18 that takes care of the items on the agenda, but we'll come 19 back to Item 2, to consider, discuss, and take appropriate 20 action to award contract for maintenance shop at Hill Country 21 Youth Exhibit Center. Mr. Bollier? 22 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: You had an opportunity to review the 24 bid that was submitted? 25 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, I have. 3-9-09 99 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Was it in conformity with -- with 2 the bid request? 3 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, it was. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Was it approved by the 5 Auditor? 6 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, it was. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have a recommendation to make 8 to the Court? 9 MR. BOLLIER: I believe that this is a good bid, 10 and it's -- and I know Danny Feller; I know who he is, and 11 they do excellent work. I think that it -- it's on the 12 level. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Your recommendation to the Court is 14 to accept the bid? 15 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How much? 18 MR. BOLLIER: It was 12,626. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Funds in your budget? Are 20 the funds in your budget? 21 MR. BOLLIER: It -- 22 MS. HARGIS: This is in the long-term capital 23 program. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Capital fund? Okay, thank 25 you. 3-9-09 100 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 4 approval of the award of the bid to Feller Fabrication as 5 submitted. Question or discussion on the motion? All in 6 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Thank you, 11 Mr. Bollier. 12 MR. BOLLIER: Thank you, sir. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: We are now going to Section 4 of the 14 agenda, payment of the bills. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The law office thing under 16 Commissioners Court? 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What your was your question? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioners Court, law 19 offices of Charles somebody. 20 MS. HARGIS: That -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Professional services. 22 MS. HARGIS: That's the new additional D.A. that we 23 agreed to put in our budget, and we put it in under y'all's 24 contingency line item to hire the additional D.A. to go out 25 to the jail. So we could -- 3-9-09 101 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Hmm-mm. No, this is -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Charles -- 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Is that Frigerio? Is that 4 what it is? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's one of your deals? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's our -- 8 MS. HARGIS: We have the -- 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- TAC or law enforcement 10 liability attorney. Although I'm proud to say we do not have 11 a single lawsuit or appeal pending against the Kerr County 12 Jail at this time. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fantastic. Now, you -- 14 what, now? 15 MS. HARGIS: We also have the -- the attorney that 16 we have put on a retainer to help us with the jail as well. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that in here? 18 MS. HARGIS: It should be in here, but it may be 19 under the -- I thought that was this one. I looked at both 20 of them, so I may be confused at this point. So -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's see. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That should be 216th D.A., shouldn't 23 it? 24 MS. HARGIS: Well, we actually put the budget under 25 your contingency line item. Remember, when we went back, we 3-9-09 102 1 added it under the contingency line item. And -- and I 2 researched that and went back to our notes, and that's where 3 we put it. Remember, we started out with -- with 15,000, and 4 then we ended up with 85,000 under contingency, and y'all 5 agreed at that point, when the courts came in, to expedite 6 the court system so that we would, you know, be able to -- to 7 keep the jail population down. We added that. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We added 10,000. 9 MS. HARGIS: No, we added 50,000. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm sorry, 50,000. And 30 11 is earmarked for this attorney. 12 MS. HARGIS: Mm-hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then the 20 is sitting 14 there to do what we please to do with it. And so we're 15 paying -- we're paying the attorney. 16 MS. HARGIS: We did receive the first bill from 17 him. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that's for some kind of 19 work, I hope. 20 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And do you happen to have 22 that? 23 MS. HARGIS: I don't have the bill with me, but we 24 do have it. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm going to come by and 3-9-09 103 1 take a look at it, 'cause my understanding is we're not doing 2 anything. But we're going to talk about all of that real 3 soon. 4 MS. HARGIS: Okay. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I haven't heard a motion yet. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I still want to know, 7 is that -- is that bill for that young man in here or not? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: It's not. 9 MS. HARGIS: It's not. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's not. 'Snot? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: 'Snot. 12 MS. HARGIS: The bill is in our office, but it's 13 not on this, because it didn't come in in time. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I move we pay the 15 bills. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to pay the 18 bills. Question or discussion on the motion? Okay, first 19 item up there, Ms. Hargis. 20 MS. HARGIS: Sir? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know if those are West Texas 22 County Judge and Commissioners Association dues or whether 23 they're Texas Association of County dues, but all of it 24 should not be chargeable there, maybe none of it. 25 MS. HARGIS: I'm sorry, I missed your question, 3-9-09 104 1 Judge. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: First item, very top, Page 1. 3 MS. HARGIS: Conference dues. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. You got $1,100 charged to my 5 budget. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the West Texas one is 7 only, like, 250 bucks. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I was thinking. If 9 that's TAC, it ought to come out of nondepartmental. 10 MS. HARGIS: Judge, I can't answer that question 11 right now. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 13 MS. HARGIS: I did not look at that bill. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: If it's West Texas County Judge and 15 Commissioners Association, whatever the total is should be 16 one-fifth mine, four-fifths Commissioners. I mean, it 17 probably needs to be paid, and I recall approving the bill, 18 but I don't remember whether it was TAC or -- or West Texas. 19 If it's TAC, though, it needs to come out of nondepartmental. 20 MS. HARGIS: Let me check that one. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Election services, 22 reimbursement of postage. Tell me how that works. 23 MS. HARGIS: I believe -- Ms. Bolin's here -- that 24 she writes a check out of her tax account, and then she 25 requests that we reimburse her back the funds, and then we 3-9-09 105 1 write the check out to her. We do ask that she substantiate 2 the invoice with something that shows us that she has 3 purchased postage, and then we -- then she, I'm assuming, 4 deposits that back into her tax account. I'm not exactly -- 5 I think that this has been going on for a long time. I think 6 perhaps they do it because when they need postage, it may be 7 in between meetings, and because they have -- these are their 8 checkbooks in their offices. I know that Ms. Uecker and -- 9 and the County Clerk as well kind of follow a similar system, 10 but the County Clerk is now giving us her checkbook so she 11 won't be doing that any more. But I think that's kind of 12 what happens. I mean, Diane, am I correct? 13 MS. BOLIN: We have a business reply that's for our 14 confirmation cards, and we don't get a bill from the Post 15 Office staying that we owe a certain amount. We keep a 16 certain amount in an account with them, and they just deduct 17 it as they go. And we keep track of it on our end so we know 18 how much is there, and then, when we get to a certain point, 19 we put more postage in and then request reimbursement to our 20 postage line item. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Here's my point. 22 MS. BOLIN: Sure. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Here's my point. I know a lot of 24 us, as elected officials, will incur expenses that are really 25 county expenses, for example. 3-9-09 106 1 MS. BOLIN: Mm-hmm. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: And we'll pay for it with our 3 individual personal credit cards or whatever. Then we will 4 file for reimbursement from the County. And those -- of 5 course, those reimbursements -- the Sheriff does it a lot 6 with some of his guys on the road, occasionally, -- 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We don't much any more. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: -- for incidental expenses. But 9 those reimbursements are to us on a personal basis. And this 10 is not a situation where Ms. Bolin has gone down and, out of 11 her personal checkbook or her personal credit card or her 12 personal funds, she has not purchased postage and now wants 13 reimbursement for postage. This is out of her own account. 14 So, this reimbursement is not to Diane Bolin personally; it's 15 to -- 16 MS. HARGIS: Diane Bolin, Tax Assessor/Collector. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Tax Assessor/Collector, for that 18 account. Okay. Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is this postage strictly 20 for voter registration correspondence? 21 MS. BOLIN: It's only for that. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, there's a whole 24 different question in that, to me. How do you -- why do you 25 order postage four days apart? Why didn't you just buy it 3-9-09 107 1 all at one time? 2 MS. BOLIN: We have -- I have three business reply 3 mailing accounts, and the first one that Ms. Hargis is 4 talking about, I got the information on the day that we took 5 that -- the day that we were reimbursed from the County, we 6 received another one for another business reply mail that I 7 have from the Post Office. Because they expire at different 8 times. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Go on down to nondepartmental. 11 MS. HARGIS: Okay. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I show an autopsy for Armondo Ayala, 13 Jr., and, of course, there's going to be a $2,300 hit coming 14 behind that. 15 MS. HARGIS: Yes, that's just the transportation. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a city case. I know, 17 generally, if autopsies are ordered, they're done by our 18 J.P.'s, and we're on the hook for it. Is there a possibility 19 we can get reimbursement for that? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That would have been ordered 21 by a J.P. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand that, but it was at the 23 request of the -- of city law enforcement. 24 MS. HARGIS: I can ask. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. Just because of -- it 3-9-09 108 1 would have been ordered either -- no matter what, they would 2 have had to have done an autopsy on that one. But the J.P. 3 is the one that did order that. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, J.P. was the one that had to 5 do the order. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: No one over at the City had the 8 authority. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right, only a J.P. does. But, 10 I mean, if it would have happened in the county, the J.P. 11 would have still -- it would have still been required. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- you know, I'm just thinking 13 there may be some small window of availability of some 14 reimbursement on that. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I agree with you. 16 Judge, if you go back to that -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you'll drop down two 19 lines, there's our -- there's our lawyer. 20 MS. HARGIS: I thought he was in there. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, sure is. 22 MS. HARGIS: Question behind me. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I know -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: There's your lawyer. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kidneys. Kidneys just 3-9-09 109 1 kicked in. 2 MS. HARGIS: I did receive the bill approved by 3 Mr. Curry's office. It was brought over by his office. Do 4 you want to answer that? 5 MR. EMERSON: No, I just had a curiosity question. 6 How much is the bill? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $1,000. 8 MR. EMERSON: Okay, thank you. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: From 2/18 to 2/28. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're not going to say 11 anything about it today, but you can rest assured that all 12 those questions will be asked very soon. Thank you. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on that, Commissioner? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, I just wanted to point 15 it out, that there it is. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Page 2, Commissioner, in the middle 17 of the page, there's a $3,427 expenditure. Does that meet 18 with your approval? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sneaky rascal. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or comments on 21 the bills? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask a question about 23 that. Now, that -- oh, that's for transcripts. That's 24 outside -- that's outside the salary for being a court 25 reporter. And how much -- how much is the -- how much salary 3-9-09 110 1 does the person get? Just -- help me remember all this 2 stuff. I'm having a hard time remembering. 3 MS. HARGIS: It's broken down between four 4 counties, but her total salary is 85,000. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Eighty-five grand, and this 6 one's for -- 7 MS. HARGIS: These are -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- $3,400. 9 MS. HARGIS: These are usually transcripts that are 10 ordered by the Court based on someone who is indigent, and 11 therefore we have no -- and that's the cost to produce them. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the name, you're 13 right. Thank you so much. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? Comments? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Only comment real quick, 16 Judge, back on me paying a lot out of my personal deal. 17 Since the County went to the county credit card, it has saved 18 me a bunch, and it has worked fabulously. And I know that 19 the other departments could probably get to that at some 20 point, but it does help tremendously with the -- and she gets 21 a bill, I get a bill, or it can just come to me and I still 22 approve it, see all the bills. 23 MS. HARGIS: It's online. But we -- we were using 24 him as -- you recall, as a test case. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. I just want to know what 3-9-09 111 1 happened to all these frequent flyer miles, Rusty. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They're on there. I guess you 3 can get them somehow, 'cause I don't have them. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I mean the previous ones. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Oh, yeah. They expired, 6 'cause I don't go anywhere. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do have a question about 8 this. I'm wondering, on this -- 9 MS. HARGIS: Which one? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The court transcript thing. 11 I'm wondering, you know, I -- I receive a salary, and it's a 12 very nice salary and I love it. I love living here. And 13 occasionally I go out to Road and Bridge and look at plats 14 and things like that. Do you think I could charge for that? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Over and above the salary? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can charge whatever you 18 want. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Getting paid is something 20 else. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't -- y'all won't pay 22 it? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Probably not. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In-county travel; you're 3-9-09 112 1 already getting it. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Try again. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about septic tank 4 stuff? Would you pay me for that? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a different -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't get paid for that. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Depends on whether it's 8 aerobic or conventional. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Aerobic pays more, doesn't 10 it? They're all aerobic, believe me. Okay. I -- I don't 11 know what you have against me. You just don't like men? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or comments? 13 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 14 hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carried. Do we have any 19 budget amendments? 20 MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir, we do. But before we go to 21 that, y'all have a copy, I think, of the Five Star Wireless. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 23 MS. HARGIS: I just want to make note, and all of 24 you look at the bottom line where it says the number of 25 minutes used, as opposed to the number of minutes. Our 3-9-09 113 1 minutes have all of a sudden started increasing quite 2 rapidly. The 7,000 was an increase, and this is actually a 3 three -- almost 4,000 increase in minutes. So, I just want 4 to make y'all aware that the minutes are going up. So far, 5 we have not been charged additional. But we've kind of made 6 the departments aware, you know, that they're going over, and 7 they need to take note of it. Because -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A couple departments, that 9 really raises some questions about that. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: And I have raised those questions 11 with all but one of those departments, and I have myself a 12 note to make contact with the fourth of the -- of the ones 13 that I -- that there are significant increases. I have some 14 other issues about whether or not these minutes shown are -- 15 are wireless-to-wireless under the same system, whether or 16 not those minutes are reflected there, but were not charged 17 because, pursuant to the contract, if they're wireless, the 18 wireless Five Star, they're not supposed to be charged; 19 whether we're merely getting notice of the minutes, but no 20 charge. Or -- I have a meeting scheduled with those folks 21 day after tomorrow, and I intend to pursue a lot of these 22 issues. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: With Five Star? Or -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- our employees? 3-9-09 114 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Five Star. I've already raised the 2 issue with our employees. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: With our department heads and 5 elected officials, with one exception. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I haven't made contact there yet, 8 but I will. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There's -- there are -- and 10 I'll have to get with my chief and the patrol captain, 'cause 11 I sent them over to Five Star Friday afternoon; I wasn't 12 there, but when we got our bill, my patrol captain, who says 13 he uses the same amount of minutes he's always used, it 14 showed that his minutes had over quadrupled in one month. It 15 went from 200-something to 1,200. And he said there was no 16 way. 17 MS. HARGIS: See, that's what we're -- 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We sent them over to Five Star 19 to talk to them about that and see what the issue was. I 20 didn't hear back early enough this morning from them to know 21 what -- what occurred on that, but I've got some -- because 22 now, all of a sudden also, we do not get the detailed billing 23 any more where it shows actual phone calls, 'cause that's 24 what I would go by. That doesn't come any more, either. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, one of the issues seems to be 3-9-09 115 1 that Five Star was recently purchased out of -- what -- 2 MS. HARGIS: San Angelo. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Central Wireless or some such; I 4 forget the name of it, but a San Angelo-based outfit. I 5 think some things are occurring there that -- that maybe we 6 need to be aware of and get a little better explanation of, 7 and that's one of the reasons that I've scheduled this 8 meeting with those people for day after tomorrow. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, 'cause two months ago we 10 met with them; we had them come over, and -- because all of a 11 sudden, they were charging us a whole bunch of the taxes and 12 different minutes, and when we got them to analyze it, they 13 found it was a mistake, and it took about 800 off of our bill 14 that month. So, they credited that. But they are -- while 15 they're changing over, I'd just recommend every department 16 look real close at those bills, and that we kind of watch. 17 Because I just haven't heard back from my guys. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I appreciate you pointing that out 19 Ms. Hargis. Because -- 20 MS. HARGIS: Well, that's what we're seeing, that 21 it quadrupled; it didn't just go up a little bit. And so it 22 was just a little flush, and that's the reason why we're 23 bringing it up. We do have some budget amendments. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Would you like to explain 25 yours? 3-9-09 116 1 MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir, I would. When -- as you 2 recall, I did have a part-time employee, Mr. -- Ken, and he 3 quit. And then I replaced him with a full-time employee. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm not for that. You don't 5 need another full-time employee. 6 MS. HARGIS: I have the same amount of employees 7 that Tommy had when he left. I have three. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're trying to get three 9 full-time, though, is the point, out of your present budget. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move on with the budget 11 amendments, if we might. Do I hear a motion that the -- that 12 the budget amendments, as shown by the summary as presented, 13 be approved? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for the 17 budget amendments as shown by the summary to be approved. 18 Question or discussion? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just one, real quick, 20 question as to explanation. 216th District Court, 21 Court-Appointed Services. What all does that include? 22 MS. HARGIS: This is Court-appointed attorneys. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I disagree. 24 MS. HARGIS: You disagree? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That would be psychiatrists, 3-9-09 117 1 interpreters -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Services. 3 MS. HARGIS: We use it for both. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Investigators. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Investigators. The attorneys are on 6 a separate line item. The services are on another one. 7 MS. HARGIS: We end up using it for both. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, yeah, they -- when you get to 9 the end of the road, why, it kind of moves freely back and 10 forth. 11 MS. HARGIS: I think probably the reason that 12 they're over on office supplies is because of the new judge, 13 and reestablishing that office. I do -- there was something 14 else -- no, I think that's all. And we did -- we rearranged 15 the Indigent Health, because this is their first year, and we 16 had to kind of rearrange them. And they're doing very well, 17 as y'all know. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Indigent health care is 19 booming. They're great. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Further question or discussion on 21 the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 22 your right hand. 23 (Commissioners Baldwin, Williams, and Letz voted in favor of the motion.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 3-9-09 118 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm opposed. We have a 2 full-time auditor now, as opposed to a half-time auditor, and 3 the staff has been increased. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have any late bills? I've 5 been presented with monthly reports for Constable, Precinct 6 1; Constable, Precinct 4; Justice of the Peace, Precinct 3; 7 County Clerk; and Environmental Health. Do I hear a motion 8 that those reports be approved as presented? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 13 approval of those reports -- listed reports as presented. 14 Question or discussion on the motion? You have a question? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor of the motion, signify 17 by raising your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Do we have 22 any reports from Commissioners in connection with their 23 liaison or committee assignments? Commissioner Baldwin? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 3-9-09 119 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just a couple, Judge. 2 We've got a couple -- AACOG notified me of a couple local 3 governmental agencies that are having a little problem with 4 their dues, or their membership is in question. I'll be in 5 touch with those two, and we'll see if they wish to continue. 6 Unemployment rate in Kerr County is 5-plus percent, so it's 7 going up. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that's -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As of the end of February, 10 I believe. February -- through February. That's all I've 11 got. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, sir. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: How about you, Commissioner Letz? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Nothing, sir. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Oehler? 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Any reports from elected officials? 19 Department heads? Other reports at all from anybody? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I saw on Fox News this 21 morning that 30 percent of the stimulus jobs will be taken by 22 illegals. Designed. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: By design? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: By design. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That's interesting. Anything else, 3-9-09 120 1 gentlemen? We'll be adjourned. 2 (Commissioners Court was adjourned at 11:38 a.m.) 3 - - - - - - - - - - 4 5 6 7 STATE OF TEXAS | 8 COUNTY OF KERR | 9 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 10 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 11 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 12 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 13 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 13th day of March, 2009. 14 15 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 16 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 17 Certified Shorthand Reporter 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3-9-09