1 2 3 4 5 6 7 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 8 Workshop 9 Monday, June 22, 2009 10 1:30 p.m. 11 Commissioners' Courtroom 12 Kerr County Courthouse 13 Kerrville, Texas 14 15 16 17 18 Kerr County Personnel Policy Handbook 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 On Monday, June 29, 2009, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop of 2 the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let me call to order this Kerr 7 County Commissioners Court workshop scheduled for this date 8 and time, Monday, June 22nd, 2009, at 1:30 p.m. It's a bit 9 past that time now. The agenda item calls for participation 10 in a workshop for the purpose of completing review of the 11 Kerr County Personnel Policy handbook sections. Ms. Hyde? 12 MS. HYDE: There's five. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-oh. Look where it's -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Really? She might have 15 turned that upside down. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Somebody else did it. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Had somebody else do it. 18 MS. HYDE: Five of those. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wow. Is that progress or 20 what? 21 MS. HYDE: No, I didn't do them. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Wait a minute, I've got all 23 this. Did you redo this, other than what I have here? I've 24 already got a copy of this. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You don't need this. 6-22-09 wk 3 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I have a copy of this. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I got that one too, I think. You 3 got one? He's got one. Everybody's got one of these, don't 4 they? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the latest missile 6 on the e-mail? I think so. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 8 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 9 MS. HYDE: What we tried to do when we had our 10 meeting -- what we tried to do when we had our meeting last 11 week is go through that second section that was left that we 12 hadn't really discussed or talked about, and the biggest 13 discussions revolved around sick pay. And so what we did, I 14 think that Commissioner Baldwin had asked several months ago 15 to give -- like, what is the updates? And when I tried to 16 give y'all the updates, it ended up being beaucoup pages, 17 because we were still in the initial stages. So, we kind of 18 went through the sections the way that it shows in the 19 e-mail. We started out with vacation, which is Section 4.02. 20 There's one, Judge. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I've got one, yeah. 22 MS. HYDE: You're looking in the hard copy policy 23 book? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. Page 33. 25 MS. HYDE: 32, 33, somewhere around there. Depends 6-22-09 wk 4 1 on which version you're looking at. What we wanted to do was 2 make sure that the employees could bank the 160 hours. But 3 the way that the terminology was written, for example, Eva 4 Hyde has 160 hours September 30th. October 1, Eva Hyde can't 5 earn anything because she's capped out at 160 hours. And 6 what we want to do is allow the employee not to be penalized, 7 'cause they should be able to earn as long as we have the 8 proper terminology and wording that the next September 30th, 9 anything over 160, you've used it or you lost it. So that 10 their cap is still 160, but they can earn. That way, if they 11 take vacation, like at Christmas -- say they're going to take 12 40 hours at Christmastime. They still have their bank of 160 13 plus what they've earned. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or they take away from the 15 160. 16 MS. HYDE: Or they take away from it, but they 17 still have the ability to earn. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: As I recall, we had a provision in 19 the old, old policy that said at the beginning of each fiscal 20 year, anything in excess of 160 hours was eliminated, 21 dropped. 22 MS. HYDE: It was supposed to be. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I understand. I'm just 24 telling you what the policy said. And I think that's 25 where -- exactly where you're going, isn't it? Aren't we 6-22-09 wk 5 1 doing it on a fiscal year basis? 2 MS. HYDE: We're making sure that people understand 3 that, because what happened, as y'all are well aware, the 160 4 rules about capping didn't exactly make it everywhere. Some 5 places it was 160, some places it wasn't 160. So, we're 6 making sure everybody understands it's 160, but October 1, 7 you can still earn. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 9 MS. HYDE: But if you don't use it, you lose it. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can earn, so you may go up 11 to 200, but at the end of the year, you still got to go back 12 to 160. 13 MS. HYDE: 'Cause September 30th, we're whacking 14 it. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got to distinguish between 16 accrual and what they use. 17 MS. HYDE: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or accumulated. Accrual 19 never stops as long as they're an employee. 20 MS. HYDE: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But they get to a cap -- 22 they get to the ceiling, and we're not crediting their 23 account any more, until used below that 160 benchmark -- 24 ceiling. Is that the language you're proposing? 25 MS. HYDE: No, sir. I think -- 6-22-09 wk 6 1 JUDGE TINLEY: No. Actually, what -- 2 MS. HYDE: We're trying to say they can continue to 3 earn during the year, but September 30th, the ceiling or the 4 cap, whatever terminology we use, is 160. Anything over 160 5 is whacked. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 7 MS. HYDE: And then you start over October 1st. 8 You can have your 160 and you can start earning again, but if 9 you don't use it, 160 is all we're going to carry on the 10 books. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we're saying 12 basically the same thing. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, I think exactly the 14 same thing. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That's exactly what I understood the 16 very old one to say. At the beginning of each fiscal year, 17 all you could carry forward was 160. Anything in excess of 18 that was dropped. 19 MS. HYDE: Because we hadn't been following it. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the fact that it wasn't 21 followed is another issue, but I think the policy was very 22 clear. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then the second year, 24 that it's still 160. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 6-22-09 wk 7 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not 320. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, never gets to 320. 3 MS. HYDE: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or 161. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like the policy. That's 6 what I'm hearing her say that she's doing today, only I hear 7 her saying that not everybody heard it the other time. 8 MS. HYDE: Right. I don't think they understood it 9 the other time. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Well, that's -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That's your job, to make sure they 12 understand it, though. They may have understood it, but it 13 wasn't being followed, so they didn't want to understand it. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the truth right 15 there. 16 MS. HYDE: So, there we go. There's -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can -- I'm just looking at some 18 of the X's on here. Employees can still -- they don't have 19 to use a full day; they can still use part days? 20 MS. HYDE: Vacation time? Half a day, four hours. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Use all day or half a day? 22 (Ms. Hyde nodded.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: No more one hour here, one hour 24 there? 25 MS. HYDE: Because what ended up happening was 6-22-09 wk 8 1 people -- unfortunately, it's very tough to manage that, and 2 so people would say, "I'm not going to take my lunch." Well, 3 if you look around here, none of us tend to miss many meals. 4 (Laughter.) So, we're eating somewhere. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can we quote you? 6 MS. HYDE: Sure. She is. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. And that's -- that's 8 written in here? 9 MS. HYDE: I'll make sure. I'm putting a note in 10 here to make sure there's clarification, four-hour 11 increments. Any other questions on the vacation? 12 MR. BARTON: I misunderstood. What about the 13 four-hour increments? 14 MS. HYDE: Need to take vacation in four-hour 15 increments. 16 MR. BARTON: Can't take less than four hours of 17 vacation time? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That's right. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Like if you're going to the 20 doctor. If you have a doctor's appointment at 2 o'clock, you 21 take the afternoon off. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably not a good example, Jon. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You can also go fishing 24 after the doctor's appointment. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, you're going to your -- 6-22-09 wk 9 1 your child's dance recital in the afternoon. You take the 2 afternoon off; you don't take an hour off. 3 MR. BARTON: Okay. I don't understand the -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The bookkeeping is 5 horrendous. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Trying to keep track of 7 hourly -- a person taking an hour and 30 minutes here and an 8 hour here. 9 MR. BARTON: Okay. I can see taking even numbers 10 and not do half hours, but I just didn't -- if someone needs 11 to take off at 4 o'clock to go to a football game, are you 12 saying that they need to take off at lunch so they can go to 13 the football game? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That's it. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They take a half a day 16 vacation. 17 MR. BARTON: Okay. 18 MS. HYDE: You guys have got enough comp time that 19 you don't need to worry about it. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're off in their own world 21 anyway. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That may encourage a lot of 23 migraine headaches at 4 o'clock. 24 MS. HYDE: Let's don't encourage migraines. 25 MR. BARTON: You have an extra three hours of work 6-22-09 wk 10 1 you can get out of somebody. 2 MS. PIEPER: I can see me getting a migraine on 3 that one. I'd rather them be able to do an hour here and an 4 hour there, rather than the whole half day. 5 MR. BARTON: I'd rather get the three hours of work 6 out of somebody if they have to have an hour off. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You don't have to do the 8 accounting on it either. 9 MS. PIEPER: Yeah, I approve the accounting of it. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The payroll. 11 MS. PIEPER: Oh. Well, no, I approve the 12 timesheets. 13 MS. HYDE: The payroll and the GASB portion, 14 because that's part of this. Part of the reason why we're 15 trying to get -- Jeannie just walked in. I'm hoping she's 16 going to, like, help me here. On the accounting portion of 17 GASB for vacation and sick time is a liability. That's an 18 accounting nightmare, keeping up with 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 19 5 minutes. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: One hour, as opposed -- 21 MR. BARTON: I think it ought to be at least in 22 hour increments. 23 MS. HARGIS: What are we talking about? 24 MS. HYDE: We're talking about four hours for 25 vacation. You need -- 6-22-09 wk 11 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Half day or full day of vacation. 2 MS. PIEPER: If one of your employees wants to -- 3 has a doctor's appointment at 4 o'clock, make them take the 4 whole afternoon off, and that 4 o'clock doctor's appointment, 5 rather than leaving at 3:45 or whatever -- 6 MS. HYDE: That should be sick pay, number one. 7 MS. PIEPER: Well, for -- 8 MS. HYDE: In honesty, it should be sick pay. 9 MS. PIEPER: Well, for your daughter's dance 10 recital. 11 MS. HARGIS: Mine quit dancing a long time ago, but 12 okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or if you have to run to pick 14 up your kids at school. There's lots of things that could 15 come up. We just need to make it clear as to what we're 16 doing. Doesn't make any difference to me, as long as we keep 17 track of it. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the whole issue. 19 MS. HARGIS: It's an accounting problem to them. I 20 mean, as far as GASB is concerned, we can pick it up, but -- 21 but Eva's got to keep track of quarter hours and stuff like 22 that. I mean, it should be at least whole hours. And -- and 23 as far as the four, you know, it's up to them, because 24 they -- they have to track it. I mean, the payroll program 25 is complicated in itself. 6-22-09 wk 12 1 MS. HYDE: And also, the same thing I said the 2 other day; we just need to make a decision. I don't care. 3 As long as it's not in minutes. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we didn't have sick time, 5 we wouldn't be talking about this. If we didn't have 6 vacation time, we wouldn't be talking about this. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hour increments. 8 MS. WHITT: What if the day care or school calls 9 and says, "Your kid missed the bus"? 10 MS. LAVENDER: Why would you lose four hours of 11 time on -- 12 MS. WHITT: You won't know that your kid's going to 13 miss the bus -- your child's going to miss the bus until -- I 14 mean, there's -- 15 MR. TROLINGER: Well, I can see this, because we've 16 removed the failure to give 14-day notice. We've removed the 17 14-day notice requirements of vacation, and now we're just 18 adding a stipulation if you want to take vacation time, it's 19 for half a day. Seems reasonable. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we got rid of the issue of 21 personal day, too. It's all the same now. So, I mean, it's 22 all vacation, really. And there are lots of incidents -- I 23 mean, I think it needs to be, to me, an hour. I have a hard 24 time seeing how anyone can do anything in this town in an 25 hour. I mean, it's going to take -- you know, but, you know, 6-22-09 wk 13 1 an hour's fine. I don't care. Doesn't make any difference, 2 but -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is two hours the compromise? 4 MS. HYDE: Two hours is a compromise. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Tell us about from your standpoint. 6 You have to do the initial number crunch on it. Number one, 7 you want whole hours at a minimum. 8 MS. HYDE: Please. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. One-hour increments, is that 10 adequate for you? 11 MS. HYDE: That will be adequate for us. I'm easy. 12 As long as it's whole. 13 MR. BARTON: I just would hate to lose -- make 14 somebody go home when I can get two hours worth of work out 15 of them because they need to leave an hour early. That just 16 doesn't -- doesn't make sense that we're going to run our 17 people off early when we can get some work out of them. 18 MS. HYDE: Your people don't get run off anyhow. 19 Your people have got plenty of comp time before they ever get 20 vacation time. 21 MR. BARTON: Not all the -- 22 MS. ROBISON: Not all of his people have plenty of 23 comp time. 24 MR. BARTON: I've got admin staff, also. 25 MS. WILLIAMS: I say use full hour increments. If 6-22-09 wk 14 1 somebody has to leave at 4:15, they use one hour of vacation 2 time, even though they're going to be gone 45 minutes. 3 MR. BARTON: I agree. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: If they leave at 3:30, they use two 5 hours. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: You can live with one hour? 8 (Ms. Hyde nodded.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that has the most flexibility, 10 I would think. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody on the Court have a problem 13 with that? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 17 MS. HYDE: One-hour increments for vacation. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 19 MS. HYDE: Anything else? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's fine. 21 MS. HYDE: And help on the wording. Rags and 22 Commissioner Williams said that they would help us with that 23 to make sure that we've got the wording correct on it so that 24 everybody can understand it and it's clear. Sick pay. The 25 bottom line is, keep it the same. They earn 8, 10, or 12 6-22-09 wk 15 1 hours, depending upon their normal assigned work shift hours, 2 and they get to earn 12 a year. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, let's talk about the 8, 10, or 4 12 hours, depending upon their normal assigned -- 5 MS. HYDE: We have people in the courthouse that 6 work Monday through Friday, 8 hours a day. We have shift 7 workers that work 12-hour shifts, and we have shift workers 8 that work 10-hour shifts, so their ability to earn should be 9 based upon the hours worked. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So, their total -- their 11 total number of hours worked is going to be the same, I 12 expect, whether they work an 8-hour, 10-hour, or 12-hour 13 shift, right? 14 MS. HYDE: Pretty close. Pretty close. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: So why should one earn more hours 16 per month than another if the total number of work hours is 17 the same? That doesn't make sense. 18 MS. HYDE: Because their work hours aren't the 19 same. And you guys are going to have to help me, 'cause this 20 came from -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's talk about somebody 22 that has a 12-hour shift. 23 MS. HYDE: Okay. When they take sick time -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Working two and a half -- excuse me, 25 three and a third days a week, it will average out then. 6-22-09 wk 16 1 You're going to give them -- they're already on the short 2 week. 3 MS. HYDE: Right. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: But they're only working 40 hours a 5 week, and you're going to give that individual 8, 10, 12 6 hours a month, and an individual who works a 40-hour week 7 working an 8-hour shift 8 hours a month. It's not equitable. 8 MR. BARTON: I agree with Judge Tinley. That's 9 oversight on my part. 10 MS. HYDE: Okay. So I can reduce it back to the 8 11 hours, where it's a total of 96 hours for any employee. 12 Whew. He's carrying a gun behind me. That's kind of -- 13 MR. BARTON: I'm not -- 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Not armed. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's unarmed. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Understand, this is Clay. This 17 isn't the Sheriff. 18 MR. BARTON: I'm going to tap you on the shoulder 19 before I jump on you. How's that? 20 MS. HYDE: So, if you would just -- just mark out 21 the 10 or 12 hours, that makes it a whole lot more bueno. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now, with no limit on 24 carry-over. 25 MS. HYDE: Right. 6-22-09 wk 17 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why? 2 MS. HYDE: Well, because the carry-over language 3 was that if there was a 240 carry-over, that was your max, 4 and anything over the 240 was going to be a payout. And 5 there was a lot of discussion on that, and the end -- the end 6 discussion was, leave it as-is. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you -- if -- when you stop 8 employment for whatever reason with the County, do you get 9 paid your sick leave? 10 MS. HYDE: No, you do not. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As long as you don't get paid, 12 that's okay. 13 MS. HYDE: No, you do not. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: But if you don't use it and you're a 15 faithful, punctual employee for 15 years, and you suddenly 16 get hit with a big-time situation, you've got a bunch 17 accrued. 18 MS. HYDE: We also want to put in there, this is 19 another one that needs some -- some solid language on, 20 because we need to make sure that employees understand what 21 is sick pay. It's a benefit. It's not you earn it, and then 22 you get to take it off to go to your daughter's dance 23 recital. Sick is supposed to be for sick. And we have some 24 folks that don't use it that way, which is unfortunate, 25 because when they do have a serious medical condition and 6-22-09 wk 18 1 they need time and they need money, because none of us are 2 working for free, they don't have it. And then we get into 3 discussions about doing banks and loaning and all this other 4 stuff, and that -- that is a -- that is a nightmare. So, we 5 need to help make sure the employees understand. And we want 6 the language in there so that if elected officials and 7 department heads can kind of work with us on that, because if 8 you have someone that -- like, Eva Hyde comes in October 1; 9 she earns 8 hours, and October 15th she takes a sick day. 10 November 1 she earns 8 hours, and November 14th she takes a 11 sick day. Once you hit two or three months, it's kind of 12 apparent Eva Hyde's going to get a sick day and, by George, 13 she's taking it. That's still an absentee problem. And I 14 think that, like, Jannett and Linda -- and I don't see Linda 15 down here, or hear her. But, you know, we all talked about 16 it where, you know, sometimes people don't realize it. So, 17 they've asked that H.R. help them so that if we see the 18 trend, we just say, "Hey, did you know you've got so-and-so 19 that's doing this?" 20 JUDGE TINLEY: You've got some language in here 21 that's very specific about what it can be taken for, and the 22 enforcement action about abuse of that policy can be the 23 grounds for disciplinary action, up to and including 24 involuntary separation. And that needs to be there. 25 MS. HYDE: We're going to leave in the section that 6-22-09 wk 19 1 said in the old policy book that department heads, elected 2 officials can ask at any time for doctor's excuses. We don't 3 have to wait. I mean, if we want to, we can ask for them day 4 one, if we feel like someone has a problem. Because then, 5 you know, you're hitting their pocketbook, and it might help 6 them to understand that sick is for sick. The other 7 discussion was about who is part of the family in -- living 8 within the household, that Rags and -- 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That was a long discussion. 10 MS. HYDE: -- Commissioner -- it was. And he and 11 Commissioner Williams said that they would help us with that 12 terminology and language as well. We want to leave the 13 language so that it matches FMLA, so that we're under the 14 federal guidelines and we stay legal. But at the same time, 15 we want to make sure that everyone understands it's -- 16 they're living within their household. We shouldn't be 17 taking our sick days to take care of someone -- 18 AUDIENCE: Grandmother. 19 MS. HYDE: -- that lives in Houston. 20 MS. WHITT: Grandmother. 21 MS. HYDE: Unless you take time off, like vacation 22 time to go down there and take care of a sick parent or 23 something like that, or you take FMLA. 24 MS. PIEPER: Should we also put the increments in 25 this one? 6-22-09 wk 20 1 MS. HYDE: If you guys would like to, we can put 2 the increments in this one as well. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I'd say no less than one hour on 4 that one too, one-hour increments. One-hour increments. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because of time we live in 6 and parents that -- some of the people might need a ride to 7 the hospital. You know, the child has to go. Actually, we 8 don't need to include the parents, 'cause they wouldn't be 9 living -- unless they're living in the same household, the 10 way it's written, if I'm correct. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One hour is in there 12 already. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: It is. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There -- on the sick leave, 15 what if there's a -- someone accumulates, you know, 150 days 16 sick leave? 17 MS. HYDE: Okay. 18 MS. HARGIS: We have some. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is not unreasonable. 20 That's 15 years of service. 21 MS. HYDE: Right, we have a lot. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Say you have 150 days, and that 23 person has some condition and does -- uses up all their other 24 available medical leave. Do we have to keep that job open 25 for them? 6-22-09 wk 21 1 MS. HYDE: Okay. Let me try to take what you 2 said -- 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: FMLA. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, beyond FMLA. 150 sick 5 days; they've been gone for six months. 6 MS. HYDE: You don't have to leave -- by law, you 7 only have to hold the job or a job of similar value for the 8 12-week period, unless it's military, and then it's 26 weeks. 9 However, comma, if it's a long-term employee -- and we talked 10 about this, because you guys have so many, and we used an 11 employee that we had, and this went on for a couple of years. 12 Do I get rid of a great employee cause they're sick? 13 Probably not. Are you going to leave the job open? That's 14 going to be a decision for either the Court or for the 15 elected officials. Can they -- can they do it? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- you know, I don't 17 mean to look at it cold, but I look at it pretty much from a 18 budget standpoint. I mean, if you -- on these long leaves 19 outside FMLA type, we can't function with -- or maybe the 20 department -- it's up to the department heads, that you know 21 you're going to have to function with -- down a person. 22 MS. HYDE: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because we don't have the funds 24 budgeted to allow you to hire a part-time worker or a 25 replacement and continue to pay another person's salary. 6-22-09 wk 22 1 MS. HYDE: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, as long as the 3 understanding is that, you know, during these long absences, 4 that the department heads are going to be down an employee, 5 they're going to have to just make do. 6 MS. HYDE: Unless they've already got it in their 7 budget. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Shouldn't have it in the 9 budget. Hopefully we don't have any floating people in the 10 budget. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The only time -- the only time that 12 you're really left open on keeping a specific position or a 13 like position of similar stature, grade, wage, and so forth, 14 is veterans' employment, if somebody is -- goes onto active 15 duty that's an employee. Then if they show up three and a 16 half years later -- 17 MS. HYDE: Got to take them. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: As long as they make that 19 application within -- I believe it's 90 days now. 20 MS. HYDE: Right, it's 90 days. They lowered it, 21 Judge. ERISA -- and we're going over that with the two 22 departments that have those folks, because you -- that is -- 23 you have to. Whether you like it or not, we have to. So -- 24 I don't mean you. I mean -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I heard that. 6-22-09 wk 23 1 MS. HYDE: You know what I mean. It's the federal 2 law. 3 MS. HARGIS: Jon, you're kind of getting into where 4 GASB is coming in. If we -- 5 MS. HYDE: I didn't mean it that way. 6 MS. HARGIS: So far they haven't made us take sick 7 leave for more than one year, but if they start having us to 8 accumulate sick leave, then we're going to actually have to 9 show that as a liability. That's where that comes in -- 10 situation will come into being. Right now, they said one 11 year on the sick leave is all we have to do. Vacation, we 12 have to do whatever they have on the books, so we're carrying 13 about 354,000 right now as a liability. And if we really put 14 it all on, I think -- help me with this one. Wasn't it 15 around -- 16 MS. HYDE: Almost a million. 17 MS. HARGIS: Yeah, it was a lot. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Question, Ms. Hargis. If -- on our 19 sick leave issue, if we were to place in the policy -- I 20 realize that if we adopt a policy, we can change it; we can 21 modify it. But if we were to put a specific disclaimer 22 relative to sick leave that we reserve the right to place a 23 cap on the number of hours, that's not going to help us? 24 MS. HARGIS: No. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: It's going to shove it down our 6-22-09 wk 24 1 throat. 2 MS. HARGIS: The liability is there. If the person 3 has accrued 150 hours, I mean, in 15 years worth of time, 4 it's on the books, and you're going to have to -- but, again, 5 so far they haven't made -- made us do that yet. So, we just 6 cross that bridge when we get to it. At that point we may 7 have to cap it. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I think I was probably thinking 9 about it more in terms of putting employees on notice that 10 this ain't set in concrete. And -- 11 MS. HYDE: We've been doing that, Judge. We've 12 been making sure that when we talked to the employees, 13 whether it's down the road a piece or here in the 14 courthouse -- and I think Jannett and Linda and Diane will 15 tell you, I make it -- I've made it very clear in the 16 pre-work communication meetings that this is a work in 17 progress. We've gone over the sick leave policy, the current 18 sick leave in the green book, and how people have been 19 misusing it. And, unfortunately, because of the misuse, it's 20 brought it to everyone's attention. And whether it's the 21 80/20 concept or not, that -- that 20 percent that have 22 misused it are causing big problems for the other 80. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: You may get into an issue if you get 24 in a contentious matter involving, later on, capping, and 25 it's real easy to say, well, back when this employee came on, 6-22-09 wk 25 1 or at some point in time when you were having some sort of 2 H.R. discussion with this employee that, you know, made it a 3 contentious matter, we advised, you know, this -- this is 4 subject to change. Whereas, if you have it specifically 5 spelled out as part of the policy that we reserve the right 6 at any time to cap the number -- 7 MS. HYDE: Okay. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: -- of sick leave hours, we don't 9 hear that argument. But that it's there; they've signed on 10 the line, they got it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with the Judge, 'cause 12 I think, especially with what's going on in Washington right 13 now, who knows what is going to be mandated? We do a -- a 14 sick leave and vacation and health and all that stuff. So, 15 you know, a big liability we need to be aware of, and protect 16 our -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: I wouldn't be a bit surprised if 18 they -- within the next two to three years, the GASB 19 reporting didn't require that to be accumulated as a 20 liability, and we want to be in a position to -- to not be 21 left out swinging in the breeze. 22 MS. HARGIS: That's exactly why, even in the FASB 23 world, which is the financial side, they've stopped doing it, 24 because they have the same requirement. They've stopped 25 giving a lot of these benefits that they give one year's 6-22-09 wk 26 1 vacation, they give one year's sick, and that's it. And 2 there's no -- you don't accrue or anything. So that they 3 don't -- because the big companies -- for instance, you know, 4 Amoco I know, 'cause Harry worked for Amoco; they're one of 5 the first ones to start capping, and that was back in the 6 early '90's. So, I think the bigger companies have seen this 7 coming down the road and on their financial statements. Now 8 the governments are now being hit by it, and so it -- like 9 you said, we showed a loss on the GASB side, and no loss on 10 the fund side, so I think you kind of saw it when the auditor 11 made the presentation. So, we don't want that loss on the 12 GASB side any worse than we have to make it. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: We actually were 800-something to 14 the clear, and we ended up 175 below the line because of that 15 one issue. 16 MS. HARGIS: That and depreciation. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm going to play the devil 19 in this deal. 20 MS. HYDE: Can I ask a question before you're a 21 devil? Can I ask a question before you're a devil? 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Go ahead. 23 MS. HYDE: In the box in the -- on Page 35, we were 24 supposed to put in a box where it says sick leave benefits. 25 It's the one right before 4.05, Social Security, and we 6-22-09 wk 27 1 wanted to move that to the very front of this policy. So, it 2 tells what these are for. And what I'm -- what I'm hearing 3 you say, Judge, is put in -- in that box, "Kerr County may 4 change or modify this policy at any time." 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Reserves the right to. 6 MS. HARGIS: Reserves the right. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think put it in the second 8 box. 9 MS. HYDE: Put it in the second box? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. This one's talking about 11 "immediate family" definitions. I think you put it in its 12 own box. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: When you're talking about the 14 accrual of hours, and -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What box? 16 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The thing I want specifically in 18 there is to cap. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: She wants to add this. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I think it probably needs to be in 21 there where it talks about how it accrues, or immediately 22 following that. You know, you accrue 8 hours per month, for 23 example, and if you spell out that there is -- there is no 24 limit to the number of hours that may be accrued over the 25 course of an employee's employment, immediately following 6-22-09 wk 28 1 that, that Commissioners Court expressly reserves the right 2 to modify or change the number of hours which may be 3 accumulated. Yeah? 4 MR. BARTON: It just seems to me, Judge, that the 5 only people that we have an issue on this particular topic 6 are going to be your long-term employees who do not use sick 7 leave. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Essentially, that's correct. 9 MR. BARTON: The people who are abusing sick leave 10 are going to continue to; it's not going to affect them. 11 It's not going to stop their problem. But your long-term 12 employees who come to work faithfully year after year, and 13 just because they don't utilize sick leave, I think any time 14 it becomes capped, it's going to force people to take sick 15 leave. But if they -- I think -- I look at it as a deal 16 where I realize that if I get ill, I have FMLA, and that FMLA 17 keeps my position open for a certain period of time. The 18 sick leave is what keeps me in a paycheck during that time 19 that I'm ill. And I just -- I'm not sure about the 20 accounting part of it, the GASB issue, and so it may be way 21 over my head. What I've talked to Eva about is that, 22 basically, I just want to make sure that our long-term 23 employees who faithfully come to work month after month, year 24 after year, and don't take sick leave, which makes them 25 accumulate sick leave, if they were to get ill, they would 6-22-09 wk 29 1 have that time set there so they could continue to draw a 2 paycheck while they're trying to recover from the illness to 3 come back and continue to be a faithful employee. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I would hope that that is the case. 5 And you're exactly right, that's who it's going to apply to. 6 And hopefully, if we got some that are abusing, we will weed 7 those out, and all we will have are longtime faithful 8 employees that accrue a lot of sick leave because they are 9 good employees. 10 MR. BARTON: But -- but I believe -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I merely want to put this language 12 in if we get to the point, from an economic standpoint, that 13 we've got to protect hours. 14 MR. BARTON: I understand, sir. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm looking at it only for that 16 reason. I'm not trying to penalize the employees that have 17 been with us for years and that really have a need, when -- 18 when that happens. 19 MR. BARTON: That's fine, and I understand -- like 20 I said, I understand the economic issue. But -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That's the only reason I want it in 22 there. 23 MR. BARTON: That's fine. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: As a notice provision from a legal 25 standpoint, the argument's going to be made, "Well, nobody 6-22-09 wk 30 1 ever told me that." If you got it right in front of you in 2 writing and they sign off on it, yeah, they did tell you. 3 They capped it later; that's my only reason for putting it 4 there. 5 MS. HYDE: But at this point, we're not even 6 talking a cap; we're just researching the right to. 7 MR. BARTON: I understand that, Judge. And the 8 only down side I can see to it is that if they're -- in the 9 middle of my illness, after I've accumulated all this time, 10 the Commissioners Court decides to activate the cap, I may be 11 in midstream. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can't go for all the 13 what-if's. There's also -- 14 MR. BARTON: Sure. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- a more likely "what-if" that 16 the government's going to mandate that during FMLA, we got to 17 pay full salary. 18 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In which case -- 20 MR. BARTON: That's true. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's why I want -- why I'm 22 concerned about this being a liability, adding that on top of 23 it. 24 MR. BARTON: That's why I told you I'm wasn't 25 familiar with the economic standpoint of it. I'm just 6-22-09 wk 31 1 looking at the -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm looking at the legal and the 3 accounting and economic issue solely. I'm not trying to 4 penalize anybody. The long-term employee is the one that you 5 want to take care of. 6 MR. BARTON: And I -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The one that hasn't taken sick 8 leave. 9 MR. BARTON: -- certainly have no problem with 10 adding the language as long as we're going to continue to 11 accumulate. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: But your point's well made. 13 MR. BARTON: Thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That's who we're trying to protect. 15 That's who we want to protect. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, here comes the devil in 17 the deal. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, the devil. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Now, there are a lot of small 20 companies that -- that their employees get nothing. I think 21 that's why we're probably going to be seeing coming down the 22 pike the FMLA mandate to pay people when they're sick. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's why it started. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But it really -- what this 25 really does is, by accumulating one heck of a liability that 6-22-09 wk 32 1 we're taking on for all those -- just like you said, you 2 know, some of these offices can't operate a person short. 3 Some only have one, and so we're going to have to do 4 something to cover that in the meantime. But you let this 5 stuff keep carrying over and building up, the liability just 6 gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and that's why a lot of 7 companies don't do it. And others that do do it, some of 8 them -- of course, banks are probably one of the sorriest 9 places to work in the world, but they're notorious for doing 10 this. They'll let you build up six days or so a year, but if 11 you don't use them, they're gone, and the liability's gone. 12 They don't -- you just -- you can't accumulate them, and that 13 is -- this is -- you know, that's when you eliminate your 14 liability. Now, I realize that County employees are not the 15 highest paid people, and this is one heck of a benefit to 16 them to be able to accrue this over their work time with the 17 County. But it is -- and we have to recognize that it is one 18 heck of a liability. It's gotten bigger. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's going to get bigger. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And going to get worse. And 21 like -- like Jon was just saying, I don't know if anybody 22 heard him, but if FMLA is mandated on us, that we're going to 23 pay it, and then we're going to pay that -- this on top of 24 that. 25 MS. HYDE: Yeah. 6-22-09 wk 33 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, maybe we need to 2 look seriously at -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Capping it now? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- either if you're sick, you 5 need it, you take it. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, if that happens -- 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But do you know what? You're 8 blessed if you're well and can go to work, get paid. This 9 way they're really getting paid twice. It's really a bonus 10 in the end, because you're saving up time for the future. 11 You've already been paid for your time at work. I'm playing 12 the devil here; not saying I'm for this. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: You make good points. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm pointing it out. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is a good point. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You get paid again because 17 you didn't get sick back then, but you're sick now. So, that 18 keeps your pay constant and coming in. I understand that is 19 one fine benefit for people that get sick and can't work. 20 That's huge. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: You're suggesting that we ought to 22 think about capping it, much like the vacation time? 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm thinking that, you know, 24 we need to seriously consider what we're doing here by 25 allowing this stuff to continue to build and build and build 6-22-09 wk 34 1 from now on. 2 MR. BARTON: If we add language, 'cause we need to 3 add some language, I believe, that specifics -- or that upon 4 leaving employment, you do not get paid for any accrued sick 5 leave. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's right. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's definite. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's definite. 9 MR. BARTON: I'm not sure if we have that in there, 10 because at that point it's not a liability. You're not going 11 to have to pay these people for any accrued sick leave. I 12 mean, that's just -- similar to vacation. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That would cut some of the 14 liability for sure. 15 MR. BARTON: But this is just -- I'm just looking 16 at it as a -- to keep long-term employees faithfully coming 17 to work and not claiming sick leave. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Now, I don't disagree with 19 you, but I also -- at the same time, I have to -- have to 20 point out the economic impact of it. 21 MR. BARTON: Well, if they aren't allowed to get 22 paid for it other than when they're taking it, does that 23 lessen the economic impact that you're -- you're talking 24 about? 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, if they show up for 6-22-09 wk 35 1 work, they're getting paid for what they're doing. If they 2 get sick, they're getting paid while they're sick. You can't 3 help -- you know, a person can't help whether they get sick 4 or not. 5 MR. BARTON: Well, and we discussed this. 6 Apparently -- I was really surprised to find out the 7 difference between -- Eva, how did you quote that? The 8 difference in sick leave from within the courthouse to the 9 offices located outside the courthouse. 10 MS. HYDE: It's huge. I mean, that's the 11 information that I had given y'all that got this really 12 started. I mean, the difference when you look at the S.O., 13 Juvenile Detention Facility, and Road and Bridge, it's like 14 night and day. It's 80/20, that 80 percent of them have got 15 close to 1,000 hours, and 20 percent of them, then you go all 16 the way back down to 40 or 60 hours. But the flip side is -- 17 is here in our courthouse, and it's 80 percent have less than 18 100 hours on the books, and you've got less than 20 percent 19 that have got anything out there. 20 MR. BARTON: But in defense of some of the ladies 21 here at the courthouse, you know, if a day care calls and 22 says, "Your child's got a runny nose or got a fever; come get 23 him" -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's always reasons for 25 everything. Some of them are good reasons, some of them 6-22-09 wk 36 1 aren't. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Abusers don't have good 3 reasons. Your points are valid. I'd rather see us wait 4 until -- if there's a change in that FMLA, and the likelihood 5 is pretty good there will be, then we need to adjust this. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We'll have to. We can't 7 afford to do both. 8 MR. BARTON: We're going to address some language 9 now that they will never be compensated upon leaving 10 employment? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that needs to be in there. I 12 think there's unanimous agreement on that. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, there's a lot of 15 even pretty good-sized businesses that you can only accrue 16 six days a year. If you don't use those days by the end of 17 the year, they're gone. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: And you start over. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You start over. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A lot of small companies do 21 it that way. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, a lot. They can't 23 afford to do it any other way. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because of liability. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, I mean, that's just 6-22-09 wk 37 1 pointing out the other side. I'm not saying that's what I'm 2 for. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I have to leave at -- before 5 2:30, because I have to meet TexDOT up on bridge projects. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you going to take care 7 of the porta-potties on your way out? 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They're taken care of. 9 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. What else you got, Ms. Eva? 11 MS. HYDE: Workers comp, 4.07. The only thing that 12 we changed on the workers comp is that the "timely manner" in 13 the second to last sentence in the second paragraph now needs 14 to say "24 hours" in parentheses. There was no change. Any 15 questions on the workers comp? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think that's a big issue, is 17 it? 18 MS. HYDE: No, it's not been a big issue the last 19 two years. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 MS. HYDE: 4.08 on the County health plan. It said 22 "retirees 65" twice in that section, and it should have been 23 "retirees 60," because they can retire with medical benefits 24 at age 60. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What page, 37 or 38? 6-22-09 wk 38 1 MS. HYDE: I show Page 38. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I see it, yeah. Sixty or 3 older? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Explain that to me, Eva. 5 Tell me what this all means. 6 MS. HYDE: What it means is we have the rule of 75, 7 so it's age plus years of service equals 75. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. 9 MS. HYDE: Or eight years vesting and you're age 10 60, or 30 years any age, but you don't get medical until you 11 hit age 60. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't get medical till you 13 hit age 65 from -- from Medicare. 14 MS. HYDE: Sixty. 15 MR. BARTON: The rule of 75. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: On Medicare? 17 MS. HYDE: No, on us. If we retire. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 19 MS. HYDE: I'll use the Sheriff. He gets 30 years 20 in, but he's only going to be 50 -- 50. So, he has to work 21 another ten years if he wants the medical, or he has to pay 22 the full cost of medical insurance if he wants to stay on our 23 medical insurance. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay, I'm with you. I just 25 thought it had something to do with going on Medicare. 6-22-09 wk 39 1 MS. HYDE: No. No, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's -- 3 MS. HYDE: Nothing to do with Medicare. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 5 MS. HYDE: On holidays, we discussed this at 6 length. We've discussed it multiple times in Section 4.2, 7 and everyone agreed -- now, they might change their mind 8 today, but they had all agreed that if you have a holiday, 9 you get paid for that holiday. So -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, no, surely not. I'm 11 kidding. 12 MS. HYDE: So, the -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: If you work, you get paid twice. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's right. 15 MS. HYDE: Well, if you got to work it, you still 16 get the holiday pay, but we need to plan it. We need to 17 budget it and we need to pay it. 18 MR. BARTON: Correct. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, do you -- when you talk 20 about budgeting it, you put in an extra day's pay for 21 everybody in the system? 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, sir. You put in, for 23 example -- and I'll use the S.O., 'cause that's what we're 24 talking mainly about, S.O. and jail. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All about the S.O. 6-22-09 wk 40 1 MS. HYDE: So -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Always. 3 MS. HYDE: -- what has happened in the past is, 4 because they did not get paid and it wasn't budgeted, they 5 got a day off, so now you have what they call "comp time" of 6 straight time that was banked. So, before someone ever took 7 sick time or vacation time, they could take their holiday 8 bank first, and that's been kind of carried over. So, we 9 need to pay it as -- a holiday as part of their pay. So, you 10 figure about half of the staff works on a holiday, and you 11 can budget it that way. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I see. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Everybody else is off; 14 they're getting paid straight time. If you work a holiday, 15 you're going to get paid double. 16 MS. HYDE: And it's not to penalize the S.O. or the 17 jail; it's just to get it off the books, 'cause that is a 18 nightmare. And when we do GASB, there is nothing for special 19 comp time pay, so that's why that was in there. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Either that, or get two days 21 of comp time. 22 MS. HARGIS: She doesn't like that. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Straight time or two days of 24 comp time. 25 MS. HYDE: It's whatever y'all want to do. 6-22-09 wk 41 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, if they're working on a 2 holiday, they need to get paid for the holiday like everybody 3 else that's not working, and if they're working that day, 4 they need to be paid for working. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's exactly right. 6 That's the whole issue right there. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Otherwise, if you give them comp 8 time, they got -- they got one and a half. So, you're going 9 to pay two and a half instead of two. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Anything else is denial of 11 the holiday. 12 MS. HYDE: And if we carry it just like any other 13 liability, every time they get an increase, that cost goes 14 up. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 16 MS. HYDE: So, it just needs to be budgeted so it 17 can be paid. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's only fair. 20 MR. BARTON: So, we will just budget for it? Is 21 that what we got? 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 23 MR. BARTON: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Going to be a big increase in 25 the budget. Need to cut some to cover it. 6-22-09 wk 42 1 MS. HYDE: Oh. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In respect to that, what 3 about hazardous pay for us during the budget process? 4 (Laughter.) 5 MS. HYDE: I got us hazard duty pay, Bubba. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hazardous duty pay. 7 MS. HYDE: We're going to have Kevlar from here to 8 here this year. I'm not doing that like I did last year. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Chicken wire. 10 MS. HYDE: We need bulletproof glass. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But beer bottles -- it will 12 stop beer bottles. That's what I'm interested in, 'cause 13 this crowd out here -- 14 MS. HYDE: They're rough. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wild. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Might bring a tiger in. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The tiger. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bring the tiger tamer, too. 19 MS. HYDE: When we do the holiday pay, it will be 20 shown on the paychecks. We did it this year, but I don't 21 think anyone's really noticed, but it shows the holiday pay 22 as a separate pay line. They still get their 86.67 if they 23 worked the full, but it shows holiday as eight. Bereavement 24 leave. I don't think that people understood -- let me 25 rephrase -- rewind. I think that there was a 6-22-09 wk 43 1 misunderstanding on bereavement pay, that you got three days 2 off. And this is going to sound really cold-hearted, and I 3 don't mean it to be, and if I offend anyone, I don't mean to, 4 but if you have six people that die in your family this year, 5 we're only paying for three days. That's the policy. That's 6 what it's been for -- since 1992 for bereavement pay. But we 7 have folks that have lots of deaths in their families, 8 unfortunately. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Did you start to say grandmothers? 10 MS. HYDE: I wasn't going to -- I'm trying -- I'm 11 already skirting that edge. But we have people that have 12 been paid, like, 12 and 13 days. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many days does grandma 14 need? 15 MS. HYDE: I don't know. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll probably sound more 17 cold-hearted than you, but is it common to have bereavement 18 pay? 19 MS. HYDE: We used to call it funeral pay, and you 20 gave them three days for -- for one funeral a year if it was 21 immediate family. And that falls back under the FMLA; 22 mother, father, sister, brother, kids. But we kind of have 23 been paying -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Aunts and uncles and all 25 that. 6-22-09 wk 44 1 MS. HYDE: -- for family. And sometimes it might 2 be kind of extended family, like if Buster died, I'd take 3 bereavement, 'cause he's, like, my fifth, sixth cousin. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You promised you wouldn't 6 tell that. 7 MS. HYDE: Don't tell anybody it's the truth. It 8 was just a joke. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 10 (Commissioner Oehler left the meeting.) 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I'm not sure 12 that I think that, Eva, you have any bereavement pay. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you got to go to your 14 mother's funeral. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, you have other ways to 16 take days off. 17 MS. HYDE: Yeah, but -- I mean, I understand -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Golly. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe he doesn't have any 20 relatives. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That care anything for him, 22 and I see why. (Laughter.) 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, there's -- I just -- 24 you know, I just never really thought about it, never read 25 that before. 6-22-09 wk 45 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like the three days. You 2 got to -- these people have to have time off to go see their 3 -- go to their mother's funeral. Knot-head. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Jon comes from a very 5 conservative -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Really. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: -- culture. Well, their policy 8 provides that you're provided time off for one funeral, your 9 own. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That's it. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Jonathan, there's a way we 13 could cut this down by 66 percent, and that would be to 14 follow the Jewish tradition; got to be in the ground within 15 24 hours. 16 MS. HYDE: Oh, whoa. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I guess I look at it as 18 there are -- I mean, I don't think people should take -- I 19 mean, I'm -- it sounds bad. People have vacation days. And 20 I don't mean that should be a vacation, but at the same time, 21 there are -- many times your closest ones you care about in 22 your family may not be that -- you know, real close. You may 23 have an uncle that helped raise you, and all of a sudden then 24 you're not covered for that person. That person has to take 25 vacation for someone that's more important to them than 6-22-09 wk 46 1 someone else. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If it's not in the 3 definition of family -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't get covered. I just -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't see anything about 6 uncles there. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't have to worry about it 8 much, but I just don't see any reason for it. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're definitely in the 10 minority here. I can see that you and I need to have another 11 little talk. 12 MS. HYDE: It's three days; it's all they get. I 13 mean, it's a heck of a lot better than what we've been doing, 14 which could be 12, 15 days. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 16 MS. HYDE: For a stepsister of my mother's 17 brother's wife's cousins's person. Literally. And so, I 18 mean, I think people were kind of surprised when I said it 19 says three days per year. That's it. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You got to pick the one you 21 want to go to. 22 MS. HYDE: You're damned tootin'. The first one 23 that dies, that's the one you get. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, grandma, draw straws. 25 (Multi-voice discussion off the record.) 6-22-09 wk 47 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That just -- I'll be quiet. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, Ms. Hyde. Let's come to the 3 next issue, okay? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We buried that one. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, while you're on 6 bereavement, we have emergency situations which aren't -- not 7 on here, but they're in here. 8 MS. HYDE: Emergency situations on 4.31? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. And there's inclement 10 weather and building emergencies. Those are paid periods? I 11 mean, I'm not sure I understand the point of what's in here. 12 What's it telling me? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 4.31? 14 MS. HYDE: So we're skipping -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Inclement weather. 16 MS. HYDE: Can I say this one thing? And we can 17 skip civil leave, 'cause "civil" needs to be "civic." They 18 all corrected my error. We're just changing the title from 19 "civil" to "civic." 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 21 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 22 MS. HYDE: Okay, emergency situations. For 23 example, two years ago we had an ice storm, and we shut the 24 courthouse down by Commissioners Court order. Is that 25 correct? 6-22-09 wk 48 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: By the Judge, probably. 2 MS. HYDE: Judge order. But the Court shut it 3 down. Everybody stayed home, and everybody got paid for that 4 day. However, comma, we had other days, like K.I.S.D. 5 called; school's out. Our employees -- some of our employees 6 felt like that was another paid day off, because they can't 7 come to work because their children can't go to school. I 8 don't mean this ugly. I have a dog, and I worry about her 9 being outside when it's cold, but I don't take off from work 10 and expect to get paid unless she's been bit by a scorpion or 11 broke her leg, and I'll take her to the vet. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or fell out of a tree. 13 MS. HYDE: Fell out of a tree. So, that's what 14 this -- that's -- this is kind of to tighten up that if the 15 Court says we're out and this place is shut down, and we're 16 paying them, that's one thing, but they don't make that 17 determination. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it says here, may be absent 19 subject to department head approval. Is "absent" -- does 20 that mean they may be absent with pay? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 22 AUDIENCE: No. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Says they're going to be 24 docked. Keep reading. 25 MS. HYDE: It says may be short -- will be shorted. 6-22-09 wk 49 1 This is a "will"; this wasn't even a "may." This was "will 2 be shorted on their payroll." 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, they can get -- they 4 may -- Linda may tell people, "Yeah, we're going to start at 5 10 o'clock today," but they're all going to get docked two 6 hours. Okay. 7 AUDIENCE: Unless the Court says it, right? 8 MS. HYDE: Unless the Court says that it's a close 9 -- we're closing. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 MS. UECKER: And the reason that came up was -- 12 MS. HYDE: She's here. 13 MS. UECKER: She is here. I came back. 14 MS. HYDE: I said I didn't hear her. 15 MS. UECKER: The reason that came up is, we'd have 16 ice days -- and this was before Judge Tinley. We had a judge 17 that refused to make that call, so we had some department 18 heads say, "Oh, it's too cold; we're going to stay home." 19 And, you know, we're driving in over the ice and bridges to 20 get here, and we're -- well, you know, some of us are here, 21 and some of us have shut the place down. And there were 22 actually times where, you know, those folks that stayed got 23 paid as well as the folks that worked. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. That's -- with that 25 explained, I agree. 6-22-09 wk 50 1 MR. BARTON: What's the bottom line? 2 MS. HYDE: The only time you get paid when we shut 3 it down is if they shut it down. 4 MS. LAVENDER: Could you add the word "or" in 5 there? 6 MR. BARTON: They can just get compensated for comp 7 time. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we shut it down, they don't 9 work. 10 MS. HARGIS: He can't shut down. 11 MR. BARTON: I don't have people out, Jonathan. 12 What I'm saying is, we reimburse them as holiday pay -- extra 13 holiday pay. 14 MS. HYDE: Vacation or sick time or comp time. 15 MS. ROBISON: He's talking about the ones that are 16 working. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: You get paid 'cause that's why 18 you're out there. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's your job. 20 MS. ROBISON: Even though the County has closed 21 down? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me tell you what I am working 23 on, and this -- this is an issue presented to me by state 24 emergency management. A policy provision that provides that 25 in the event of natural disaster or emergency situation, if 6-22-09 wk 51 1 it's required that Kerr County employees work -- perform 2 extra duties, work extra hours, that they're entitled to 3 extra compensation, compensatory time, or other sort of 4 remuneration appropriately as may be authorized under FEMA 5 rules. The reason that I'm doing this and I'm working on 6 this is because if you don't have it as part of your policy, 7 FEMA's not going to pay you, will not reimburse you for those 8 -- those extras. I've got a draft; I'm sending it to the 9 state emergency people. 10 (Commissioner Letz left the courtroom.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I asked them for guidance of -- of a 12 policy section. They -- they ran like a bunch of rabbits. 13 Even though they got that massive organization over there, 14 "Oh, no, we can't tell you that." But I'm sending it over 15 there anyway; let them disclaim again. But we're going to 16 add that to the policy so that in the event we have an 17 opportunity to get reimbursement for additional -- 18 MR. BARTON: And that's fine. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: -- compensation, that we can do 20 that, but it's going to be under applicable state or federal 21 regulations that we can get that reimbursement. 22 MR. BARTON: Okay. Because a couple years ago, 23 when we had to shut the courthouse down because of the ice, 24 of course, a lot of workers didn't have to come in because 25 they were unable to, and the Commissioners passed that order. 6-22-09 wk 52 1 Those guys that were still working, to my knowledge, never 2 got compensated. Some people got two or three extra vacation 3 days, and these guys continued to work and never got 4 compensated with -- with any extra time off. That's all I'm 5 asking, is that if the courthouse should close -- because 6 that's basically just like another holiday. It's an 7 emergency, but the courthouse is closed based on y'all's 8 order. 9 MS. UECKER: That's why y'all make the big bucks. 10 MR. BARTON: And that either I can -- guys who are 11 still working, treat that like holiday pay, so they get 12 compensated monetarily for it, or we give them another day 13 off. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: They get paid the regular wage. 15 MS. ROBISON: He's saying should they get extra. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: If we pass a hazardous duty 17 provision for working under hazardous situations, I could see 18 maybe that would be appropriate, but as of now, we don't have 19 one. 20 MR. BARTON: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nice try, Clay. 22 MS. HYDE: Yeah, great try. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand your point. 24 (Commissioner Letz returned to the courtroom.) 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jon, you missed a good 6-22-09 wk 53 1 question. 2 MS. HYDE: Yeah, you would have liked it, 'cause it 3 would have been a "no." I mean, not that -- well, that came 4 out wrong too. I've hit him twice. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Let me take care of 6 this. It would have given you an opportunity to say no. 7 (Laughter.) But it was a good question, a good point. And, 8 of course, we're thinking law enforcement here. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know, that we're big 11 fans of, right? 12 MR. BARTON: That's called public safety, Buster. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Public safety that you and I 14 are big fans of. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. But I think the 17 answer's no. But why? Why no? 18 MR. BARTON: You know, I should ask that question, 19 but I don't think I'm going to get an answer, so I'll just 20 leave it at that. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ms. Hyde, can you tell us 22 why "no" is the answer? 23 MS. HYDE: Honestly? Sure. Because they are 24 public servants, and that's what they signed on for, 24 by 7, 25 365, unfortunately, whether they like it or not. No 6-22-09 wk 54 1 different than EMS, no different than hospitals. They don't 2 get extra hazard duty pay or anything extra when they work 3 and the whole place is shut down. When it was an ice storm, 4 people got overtime, because their butts -- whoever was in 5 the seat didn't get to go home, 'cause we knew no one was 6 going to come and replace them, so your butt was there for 7 18, 24 hours, or whatever D.O.T. would allow you to do. It's 8 unfortunate, but that's just kind of how things go. Is there 9 a gun? 10 MS. HOFFER: I have a question, because when we had 11 that ice storm, there were some issues at Road and Bridge, 12 certain people that claimed they couldn't come to work. And 13 when I was hired on at Road and Bridge, that was part of the 14 agreement of -- you're going to come and help with our bad 15 weather, things like that. 16 MS. HYDE: They got those trucks, right. 17 MS. HOFFER: Yeah, but it wasn't just them. It was 18 other employees that, "because I live 10 miles out," you 19 know, "and I've got to go over two or three crossings..." 20 Well, I don't see where that's the County's problem. You 21 made a choice to live where you live, and the -- all the 22 people that were there were the people that -- either who 23 lived in the city or lived really close, and we all had to 24 work, and those people stayed home. And I know they paid 25 them and then sent out a letter saying no more you don't 6-22-09 wk 55 1 show. But now I'm just kind of wondering -- 2 MS. HYDE: That was my first ugly letter. 3 MS. HOFFER: Yeah. Well, I thought it was fair. I 4 mean, I still didn't think they should have gotten paid. I 5 don't think they should have gotten paid. 6 MS. HYDE: I don't either, but that -- 7 MS. HOFFER: I mean, they did. But I just think 8 that that -- I know that Road and Bridge can be a problem at 9 times, and it's the same people who show up when there is a 10 problem, and it's a lot of them that live closer and are 11 there. But, like I said, when I was hired on, that was part 12 of my agreement, at least I thought, accepting the job, that 13 that's part of the job. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 15 MS. HOFFER: So that sometimes you're going to have 16 to work maybe at midnight or -- or when everybody else isn't 17 working, you're going to have to work, but that's part of 18 what you're agreeing to. And then all of a sudden, that kind 19 of went out the door. So, I just -- 20 MS. HYDE: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kelly's good. 22 MS. HYDE: Commissioner Baldwin, on the flip side 23 -- I could always play the devil's advocate since he's not 24 here. We just said that if it was a holiday and they worked 25 their holiday, then they would get paid and we would budget 6-22-09 wk 56 1 for that. So, would it not stand to reason that -- that 2 closing down the courthouse and the courthouse system is 3 therefore a holiday, a paid holiday, due to an emergency or 4 whatever, so would you not pay them there? So, I'll play 5 both sides. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't go there. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think she's nipping out of 8 her purse. 9 MS. HYDE: Did that answer your question, though, 10 Commissioner Letz? That they will not be paid? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 12 MS. HYDE: O.T. and compensatory time -- I have 13 problems with that word every time -- in 5.06. Strike out, 14 "Exception: Vacation and sick leave shall be counted as 15 hours worked." It says "actual hours worked," which means -- 16 I don't know other words for actual hours worked, but it 17 means that the people are actually working. It's not 18 vacation time or sick time to get them into the overtime. 19 And this one I'll probably -- I might get shot down, but I'm 20 going to argue it from a business perspective, and a business 21 perspective is hours actually worked. If they take vacation, 22 that's great, but if I take vacation -- I work Monday and I 23 take -- I work 10 hours on Monday knowing I'm going to be off 24 Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and I get my eight 25 hours, why should I get paid two hours of overtime 'cause I'm 6-22-09 wk 57 1 preparing to go on my vacation? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Can we make the election of "over 8" 3 or "over 40"? And I'm excluding law enforcement, 'cause I 4 understand they got a screwball situation there where they're 5 counted separate. 6 MS. HYDE: They're 171, yeah. We have -- we've had 7 it for two years, and no one's made any comments about it. 8 On the payroll sheets that they turn in to us, it tells them 9 that we do not pay overtime after 8; we pay overtime after 10 40. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Solves it. 12 MS. HARGIS: That's the law. That says that in the 13 federal -- Fair Labor Act. It's actual hours worked. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I know in a lot of situations, 15 particularly union contracts, -- 16 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: -- they'll negotiate for anything 18 over eight. 19 MS. HYDE: That's right. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: As overtime, or some sort of an 21 additional -- 22 MS. HARGIS: But it states in the Fair Labor Act 23 you have to actually work 40 hours before you get overtime. 24 MS. HYDE: Actual hours worked. I just want to 25 make sure everybody understands that. Right now, people get 6-22-09 wk 58 1 angry with us because we'll say no, no, no, no, no, but it's 2 actual hours worked. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that somewhere on your signed -- 4 MS. HYDE: It's on the timesheets, but I can put it 5 in here where it spells it out. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that -- and then they're 7 going to sign that when they come on board, that they -- they 8 only get overtime in excess of 40 a week. Tim, you had an 9 issue? 10 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir, I got a question. Since I 11 got here a little bit late, I see that we're on overtime 12 compensation down there. Like, whenever -- you know, we're 13 on this 40-hour kick. If you got a man that works 40 hours, 14 and then plus he also works a weekend that is a -- that is a 15 holiday, does he get paid overtime? Double time? Or what 16 are we going to do there? 'Cause, I mean, if they work 40 17 hours and then plus they come in and they work a weekend 18 function that's on a holiday, and they may put in 8 to 14, 15 19 hours; just depends on what the function is. So, I'm asking, 20 are we paying just single time on that holiday? Or are we -- 21 I mean, overtime? Are we going to pay them double time that 22 holiday? That's my question. 23 MS. HYDE: On a holiday? I mean, I've heard three 24 different things. Which one is the scenario, hon? Is it 25 that I'm working 40 hours Monday through Friday and then I 6-22-09 wk 59 1 work Saturday eight hours? 2 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, ma'am, if it's a holiday. 3 MR. BARTON: July 4th. 4 MR. BOLLIER: Or else they work a holiday that is 5 their normal working day. 6 MS. HYDE: If they work a holiday that's a normal 7 working day, then they get paid for working that day and they 8 get paid eight hours for the holiday. 9 MR. BOLLIER: Okay, got you. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That, in effect, is double 11 time for the day. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Double time. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What if they -- what if he 15 works Monday through Friday and then comes and works at the 16 Ag Barn on Saturday, and that Saturday happens to be a 17 holiday? 18 MS. HYDE: If it's not our holiday -- our holidays 19 aren't on Saturday, but let's just say you made one on -- 20 because that fits what you're asking me. If you make one on 21 Saturday next year, then he would get paid or she would get 22 paid the eight hours they worked plus the holiday pay. 23 MR. BARTON: Be more like if you took a holiday on 24 Friday, came on working on a Friday that was a holiday, or a 25 Monday and they work through. 6-22-09 wk 60 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Monday. 2 MS. HYDE: And in section 5.06 -- excuse me -- 3 yeah, 5.06, it does say overtime is not paid until after you 4 hit 40 hours. 5 MS. HARGIS: Is it actually -- 6 MS. HYDE: For the purposes of overtime 7 compensation only -- and this is underlined and 8 highlighted -- hours actually worked in excess of 40 hours 9 during a work week will be counted. And we define the work 10 week as Sunday through Saturday. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the way it ought to 12 be. 13 MS. HYDE: Except for law enforcement and the 14 juvenile detention. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Are we through with that one? 16 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. Drug and alcohol testing, 17 6.02. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Got to be careful here, Buster. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I'm going to listen to 20 this one. 21 MS. HYDE: We said the change where it says "all 22 new hires are" to "all new hires may" be tested. We're not 23 saying we're going to. Depends on budget, to be quite 24 honest. But on the flip side, we also want to make sure that 25 if we can, we will. So, I'd like for y'all to ponder, when 6-22-09 wk 61 1 we get to the next -- the next part about the acknowledgment, 2 there's a couple more that we'd like to kind of talk about 3 and see if you want us to go that direction or not. Which 4 means that we -- that the person would sign something 5 acknowledging that we have the right to search, and we have 6 the right to conduct drug and alcohol screenings. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Clear that with the County Attorney 8 first. 9 MS. HYDE: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you a question 11 about that. So, you want to test every employee? 12 (Ms. Hyde shook her head negatively.) 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's not what you're 14 saying. So, what's the change, then? Then the opposite of 15 that is random checking. 16 MS. HYDE: We've had some situations -- or 17 hypothetically, there could be situations where we have 18 employees that are suspect. Let's just say that we think -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. You -- 20 MS. HYDE: -- that they're drinking. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You want a blood test? 22 MS. HYDE: And we want to be able to give them a 23 screen. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 25 MS. HYDE: We want to follow methods, not get 6-22-09 wk 62 1 ourselves in trouble, but follow the methods and screen them. 2 Or if they're taking prescription meds and they have ten 3 different bottles sitting out on their desk, and they're 4 popping them like you and I would eat M & M's, there might be 5 a problem. Especially if the dates on those pill bottles are 6 two or three years old. So, that would be a cause for some 7 alarm, and someone should kind of -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Would you give them a drug 9 test? 10 MS. HYDE: -- put them out of service. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If they're standing there 12 with the bottles across their desk, eating them like M & M's, 13 there's a pretty good chance they're taking drugs. 14 (Laughter.) So, I don't get your point about that. But -- 15 but -- so you want to randomly drug test people. I want you 16 to. Just talking about randomly. 17 MS. HYDE: We have to do it. We have to do it at 18 Road and Bridge. We have to conduct randoms because of 19 D.O.T. We'd like to be able to put the same type of language 20 throughout the courthouse, and we've talked about it multiple 21 times. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, that -- is that at 23 hiring time? Or occasionally my name's going to pop up? 24 MS. HYDE: Well, that will be up to the Court, 25 whether or not elected officials are included in that. 6-22-09 wk 63 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Is Clay's name going 2 to pop up? 3 MS. HYDE: He's already under a random. Law 4 enforcement. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's say -- 6 MS. HYDE: Jody Grinstead? Jody could be a random, 7 yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And you're just going to 9 draw names out of a hat? Or -- 10 MS. HYDE: Typically you use either a wheel or you 11 use a computer system, and it just pops names out. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 13 MS. HYDE: You have a third party. You put 14 everybody's names in and they throw it in there. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I like that, myself. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Question. "For good cause." 17 MS. HYDE: For good cause. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: You can -- at any time, an elected 19 official or department head can request. Is that not 20 correct? 21 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. We just want to make sure 22 that the elected officials and department heads understand 23 the rules of good cause. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I'm talking about. 25 Those are the ones you need to -- 6-22-09 wk 64 1 MS. WHITT: They need to come to you if they have 2 suspicions. They need to come to H.R. and talk to H.R. about 3 their suspicions and then go from there. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: For guidance, yeah. 5 MS. HYDE: I'm open. I would like to -- we have 6 talked about it, and I'd like to do some training on cause, 7 and -- and allow them to understand. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Got a training venture for you, Rex. 9 MR. EMERSON: Sir? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I said we got a training venture for 11 you. 12 MS. WHITT: For instance, Eva, if an employee has a 13 vehicle accident and it turns out that it's that employee's 14 12th; they're at fault. 15 MS. HYDE: Well, we haven't done the safety 16 committee for the policies yet. However, what I'm used to 17 is, if you have used D.O.T. -- to be safe, use D.O.T. So, if 18 you have an accident and you're at fault and you have to be 19 towed, or there's a fatality or there is any sort of medical 20 attention away from the scene, that is an automatic drug 21 screen. That is an automatic -- 22 MS. WHITT: I agree. 23 MS. HYDE: That's just kind of -- sorry, I went 24 into the U.P.S. mode. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. So, that's automatic. 6-22-09 wk 65 1 Those are kind of automatic. 2 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir, those are automatics. If you 3 have an accident with anybody, any bodily harm that -- you 4 know, where it has to be transported, you got drug screens -- 5 drug and alcohol screens. And it just -- it protects you. 6 It protects the employee. And a lot of times people look at 7 it, "Oh, you're picking on them. You think they're a 8 druggie; you think they're an alchie." Absolutely not. 9 We're protecting our assets, our liability, and we're trying 10 to help that employee. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Shouldn't -- it just seems 12 to me -- it seems like that all -- all of the drug tests need 13 to be borne with the elected official or the department head, 14 or the boss of that -- I mean, you and I can't come along and 15 say, "Old Jody, she looks goofy today; let's give her a 16 test." 17 MS. HYDE: I think it needs to be -- I think it 18 needs to be the elected official or department head, but you 19 do randoms. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That comes to you in a 21 request? Say -- 22 MS. HYDE: I don't know. I kind of feel that if we 23 all agree to it, then we all agree to it, and all the names 24 go in the hat. And that way, it's not me. It's not anybody 25 that's picking these names, or attempting to pick on a 6-22-09 wk 66 1 certain department, or -- you know what I'm saying? It is 2 truly random. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I thought we were outside 4 that conversation. I thought we were to the point to 5 where -- 6 MS. HYDE: Oh, you're saying if somebody -- if you 7 think somebody is -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I think my employee 9 Jody is goofy. I think there's a possibility of some drug 10 abuse. She's late every Monday morning. That's a sign. It 11 really is a sign, so I think that she needs to be tested. 12 Now, I'm going to come to you and say, "Hey, old Jody's been 13 late four months in a row here." Do I fill out -- as her 14 employer, or department head, do I fill out a form that says 15 I think that she needs to be drug tested? I just talk to you 16 and then you go with it? 17 MS. HYDE: You just tell me that you want it done 18 and we send her for a drug screen. We just got to make sure 19 that your cause -- what you're using as your cause is a -- is 20 a good, legitimate cause. Because some people -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you have to have a 22 cause? 23 MS. HYDE: There needs to be a reason. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: If it's not totally random, you have 25 to have good cause. 6-22-09 wk 67 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 2 MS. HYDE: Like with the -- like with the pills on 3 the table. I'll just use that. Let's say Jody -- do you 4 mind my using you? 5 MS. GRINSTEAD: No. 6 MS. HYDE: Oh, Jody has 10 bottles of pills up, and 7 they're prescriptions. You walk in every day, and every day 8 she's popping these pills. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's more than 10. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, I saw 11 last time. 11 MS. HYDE: Now, that -- that would be for -- or, 12 you know, you think that Jody's had alcohol on her breath, 13 or, you know, you think she might be smoking dope. Now, she 14 said I could use her; she knows that this is hypothetical. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's pick on Jody day. 16 MS. HYDE: So, I mean, it -- the problem is, if you 17 don't have good cause, Commissioner, they can sue us. Rex? 18 MR. EMERSON: I just wanted to point out, Jody is 19 from California. (Laughter.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I was thinking that. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Chalk one up for the County 22 Attorney. 23 MR. BARTON: Are you going to incorporate into this 24 as a cause being in a vehicle wreck as being just cause? 25 MS. HYDE: I'd like for the Commissioners Court to 6-22-09 wk 68 1 pass the D.O.T. regs for any accident, and they -- 2 MR. BARTON: Only thing I'm going to ask about that 3 is that our guys -- as y'all know, we drive a bunch of miles. 4 MS. HYDE: Except for law enforcement. 5 MR. BARTON: Every time we hit a deer, I don't want 6 to have to send someone to the E.R. to get a blood draw. 7 We're going to -- you can't budget that much money, folks. 8 MS. LAVENDER: Not your fault when you hit a deer. 9 It's only when -- 10 MR. BARTON: I just think it ought to be -- 11 MS. HARGIS: I think it's what Eva quoted a while 12 ago. We need to put it in place, and we can't say this group 13 doesn't have it and this group doesn't have it, because our 14 insurance carrier won't go for that. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 16 MS. HARGIS: We've got to have something in place, 17 because we kind of -- we did really well for a while. Now 18 we're having a rash of accidents. I mean, I've got several 19 on my desk. So, we need to -- you know, if somebody's 20 hurt -- what did you say? 21 MS. HYDE: If you have to seek medical attention 22 away from the scene, if any vehicle has to be towed, those 23 are automatic. And normally, when you hit a deer, they keep 24 going. They turn the lights on; they go anyhow. 25 MR. BARTON: Well, just depends on how you're going 6-22-09 wk 69 1 to define your accidents. 2 MS. HYDE: D.O.T. regs. 3 MR. BARTON: I don't know what the D.O.T. regs are. 4 MS. HYDE: I'll get with you. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, Clay, this -- 6 MR. BARTON: $1,000 damage, like the law says an 7 accident is, hitting a deer nowadays, you can cause $1,000 8 damage in a heartbeat. 9 MS. HYDE: But D.O.T. doesn't put it in -- D.O.T. 10 regs do not put it in dollar increments, because you can hit 11 a cow, you can hit a goat, you can hit a deer, you can bottom 12 out in the water. 13 MR. BARTON: I mean, I'm not -- seriously, I'm not 14 opposed -- if we have a questionable incident where we feel 15 like we may get sued over a car wreck or something, I don't 16 have an issue doing that. I'm just trying to look at the 17 night-and-day issue of how we're going to do this, because, I 18 mean, we don't -- we're driving 24 hours a day, so it's just 19 going to be -- we quit going on this call. You know, they're 20 going to go to the hospital, because if we wait too long for 21 the blood test, you know, it's just going to be a mess. 22 Because a lot of guys keep their car going and go answer the 23 call that they were going on. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But to your point, law 25 enforcement can be separate, because they have a separate 6-22-09 wk 70 1 liability. 2 MS. HARGIS: Not on our insurance coverage. 3 MS. HYDE: Well, but they -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Law enforcement shouldn't be 5 exempt from this. I mean, if what you're telling me is they 6 hit a deer and keep on going, that doesn't require it. 7 MS. HYDE: Right. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you hit a deer and your car 9 is totaled or someone gets hurt, then you got to go get a 10 blood test, and I think that's reasonable. 11 MS. HYDE: And if you really stop and think about 12 it, Clay, just like if your guys are in a wreck, the only 13 other -- the only problem I see is that sometimes they may 14 not want to say I'm hurt, so they might want to wait 24 or 48 15 hours before they say I'm hurt, and then they want to go to 16 the doctor. This forces the issue. If they have an 17 accident, if they have to be transported, if -- if the 18 vehicle has to be transported away from the scene, you go get 19 your blood screen. 20 MR. BARTON: And what about -- that's fine. What 21 kind of substances are you looking for? 'Cause if you blood 22 test me today, you're going to find I take prescription 23 medication. 24 MS. HYDE: Well, then, if anyone's on prescription 25 drugs, the policy is also supposed to -- supposed to state 6-22-09 wk 71 1 that they're supposed to have disclosed that to the 2 department head or elected official, so we should know. 3 MR. BARTON: But that's not going to make any 4 variance on the fault of that accident because I was in a 5 drug screen today. You're going to find exactly what he 6 knows that I'm taking. That's not going to make any -- 7 MS. HYDE: Say Oxycontin. Which I shouldn't be 8 handling -- you shouldn't be handling a vehicle if you're on 9 Oxycontin. Then we do have a liability. 10 MS. WHITT: I think what he's asking probably is, 11 like, for instance, say you have an officer that had surgery 12 two months ago, and he goes home and he's got a horrible 13 migraine and he's off that night, and he takes a hydrocodone 14 that night. 15 MS. HYDE: Best not be driving. 16 MS. WHITT: That's in his system, because it was a 17 prescription, and he actually has a prescription for it. But 18 then the next day, he's working and he has an accident, but 19 he hadn't disclosed. It's going to come back as positive. 20 MS. HARGIS: You guys need to deal with the 21 insurance companies like we have to deal with insurance 22 companies. 23 MS. WHITT: That's -- and that's -- 24 MS. HYDE: I don't mean this ugly, but that's, I 25 mean, bull. 6-22-09 wk 72 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I got a good idea, okay. 2 Have we got the drug and alcohol testing issue resolved? 3 MS. HYDE: Oh, yeah. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And I don't see any more on 5 this that we need to discuss at this particular workshop. Do 6 you, Commissioner? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know. I can't 8 figure out if I'm sober or not. 9 MS. HYDE: The I.T. -- the I.T. is real simple. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I.T. 11 MS. HYDE: On the I.T. policy, it's right there 12 after it, Judge. You missed the whole paragraph. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which section? 14 MS. HYDE: On the bottom. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, I.T. Excuse me. 16 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. Commissioner Letz thought I 17 forgot him. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did you say you're cool 19 with safety? That's finished, right? 20 MS. HYDE: Excuse me? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Safety. You're finished 22 with that? 23 MS. HYDE: We left drug and alcohol and got on 24 safety, I think. On the computers, I think the I.T. policy 25 -- I need to ask a question. And I'm not trying to start 6-22-09 wk 73 1 anything; I truly need to understand. "Review and discuss 2 what the policy says offices can or cannot do with regards to 3 purchasing I.T. items." So, the first question we have was, 4 which offices does the policy apply to? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All, I would think. 6 MS. HYDE: Okay. And then the second question, 7 what are I.T. items? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I.T. items, in my mind -- in my 9 mind, it's computers or software. 10 MS. HYDE: Hardware and software, computers? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hardware, software, or anything 12 connected to the computer, like printers, I would say. 13 MS. PIEPER: And Xerox machines, 'cause we have a 14 Xerox machine that could be hooked up -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: It'd be a printer in that event. 16 MS. PIEPER: -- to the network. Would that be part 17 of the terminology? 18 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Does the term "peripheral" include 20 everything, John? 21 MR. TROLINGER: No. Because, as Jannett said, a 22 copy machine, it's connected to the county network. 23 MS. HARGIS: But you aren't involved in any of 24 those contracts. Or do you want to be involved in those 25 contracts? 6-22-09 wk 74 1 MR. TROLINGER: I do. 2 MS. HARGIS: In the copy contracts? 3 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. 4 MS. HYDE: Yes, because they print -- those 5 printers are presenting our stuff. They're printing our 6 computer reports. 7 MS. HARGIS: Do you know how many contracts we have 8 out there on software? There's not a person in this building 9 that doesn't have their own individual -- I had to gather 10 those up for the auditors. So, I mean, they're -- every 11 single office has their own contract. 12 MS. HYDE: Well, yeah. 13 MS. HARGIS: And they didn't go through you to 14 begin with. 15 MR. TROLINGER: Most everyone has, yes. 16 MS. HYDE: Yeah. 17 MS. HARGIS: Mine never went through yours. 18 Jannett didn't go through you. 19 MS. PIEPER: I talked to them and said -- my 20 contract stuff, and said, "I'm going to look at this. I 21 think it'll be better with this machine. What do you think? 22 Will it work?" 23 MR. TROLINGER: Oh, if you mean is I.T. going to do 24 the purchasing -- 25 MS. HARGIS: No, they don't. No, they don't. I 6-22-09 wk 75 1 can guarantee you that, 'cause some of them can't even find 2 their contracts. 3 MR. TROLINGER: Is your -- you're implying that 4 I.T. would do the purchasing for this, and that's not what 5 we're saying in the policy. It's simply an approval. Are 6 you going to purchase a copy machine that's going to plug 7 into the county network? Then -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or stand alone. 9 MR. TROLINGER: Or stand alone, potentially. It 10 has to have I.T. approval. Not necessarily the purchasing 11 process, but the approval process. 12 MS. PIEPER: Commissioners Court did the approval 13 of the contract. I just checked with him to make sure it was 14 compatible. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's what I'm -- to me, 16 the issue is that the copier is going to be compatible with 17 the system. That's the issue. It's not a -- it's not the 18 purchasing of it. It's whether the model that you want to 19 purchase is compatible. 20 MS. HARGIS: I think that needs to be spelled out. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The PC or laptops, are 22 those driven by server, or are they driven by the laptop or 23 the PC? 24 MR. TROLINGER: By the laptop or the PC. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, I'm not getting the 6-22-09 wk 76 1 connection here. 2 MR. TROLINGER: Well, that's a peripheral, if it's 3 connected to your computer. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not getting the sense 5 of why you would sign off on my going from an H.P. product to 6 a Brother product that's going to hook to my PC. 7 MR. TROLINGER: Well, -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Case in point. 9 MR. TROLINGER: -- the more different types of 10 printers we have -- for instance, the County Clerk's a good 11 example. They have many printers, and if they have many 12 different printers that take many different ink cartridges or 13 toner cartridges, then it becomes a big expense to maintain 14 those. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that's kind of a 16 different topic, isn't it? 17 MS. HYDE: But you also have -- Commissioner, if I 18 can interject, if you have 16,000 different kinds of -- types 19 of printers, when the printer fails, who do we call to fix 20 it? So, one of the reasons why we -- we're asking some of 21 these questions, not that he's going to approve or 22 disapprove, per se, the actual piece of equipment. But do we 23 know how to work on it? Is it something we're familiar with? 24 Do we already have it? 'Cause this is part of that big 25 discussion that we had about I.T. at the end of the day, when 6-22-09 wk 77 1 I needed a drink. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wouldn't we be better 3 served to develop a list of -- of printers, for example, 4 since we're talking about printers, to develop a list of 5 those to which everybody signs off as being approved or 6 acceptable? "Acceptable" I like better than "approved." And 7 you purchase within the parameters of that list? 8 MR. TROLINGER: It changes too often. It really 9 does. Monthly. 10 MS. PIEPER: And then if we ask him about one and 11 he knows of a better product, then he tells us. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have any problem 13 with that. 14 MS. PIEPER: This brand may suit our needs better 15 than what I was looking at. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I was looking at it 17 more from a standpoint of -- maybe my little home computer's 18 a lot different, but whenever I buy a new printer, all of a 19 sudden, a whole bunch of stuff gets loaded onto my little PC 20 from that printer. And if you get a whole bunch of stuff 21 incompatible, I can see it being a problem. I just have two 22 kinds of printers and one laptop, and they have problems 23 talking, figuring out which one -- 24 MR. TROLINGER: Yes, the software that comes from 25 the printers is a huge issue. 6-22-09 wk 78 1 MS. HYDE: It used to be that when you plug those 2 bad boys in, they just printed. Now they've got these 3 wonderful little things like Google toolbars and Yahoo 4 toolbars and access and all this other little -- wonderful 5 little things. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Little computers, almost. 7 MS. HYDE: Yeah, like they're putting in a bunch of 8 software on the computers when they come in. Order -- order 9 this from here. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I don't want him to approve 11 the contract. 12 MS. HYDE: No. Maybe "approval" -- what was it you 13 said, "acceptable"? Maybe part of this is terminology. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He just needs to sign off on 15 that, whatever the hardware is. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Try "acceptance" as opposed 17 to "approval." 18 MS. PIEPER: Yeah. "Consult" is a good word. 19 MS. LAVENDER: "Consult" sounds better. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the Judge is ready to 21 close this meeting. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How can you tell? 23 MS. HARGIS: He's leaning this direction. 24 MS. UECKER: It's time for juvenile probation 25 court. 6-22-09 wk 79 1 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- so the I.T. policy 3 that's in front of me right here is what we're going with at 4 the moment? Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that a yes? 6 (Ms. Hyde nodded.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Kind of, sort of. It's going to be 8 tweaked a little. 9 MS. HYDE: We would like to get Rex and some folks 10 to look at it and bring the language down a little bit, move 11 some things around. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Everyone's happy with all the 13 issues we've gone through the last six months? 14 MS. HYDE: No, they've not been, but everybody's 15 ready to go, so I'm trying not to open a can of worms. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, what's your next step? 17 MS. HYDE: I'll set one on I.T. alone, and then 18 I'll go ahead and put all of these changes in and updates so 19 that we'll have a new draft. And I'm assuming at this point 20 you're okay with everything except for the Number 10, which 21 is the I.T. So, I can go ahead and do those and make a new 22 draft, and everybody can have the new draft. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would put I.T. on a -- maybe 24 at our next Commissioners Court meeting, do a workshop just 25 on I.T., because I just want to make sure that -- we've got a 6-22-09 wk 80 1 lot of issues in I.T. All this stuff, I want to make sure 2 everyone's happy with it and signs off on it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're talking about an 4 I.T. policy versus personnel policy? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought it was going to be 6 part of it. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not the entire I.T. policy. 8 Is it the whole thing? 9 MS. HYDE: I.T. policy is -- I typed that bad boy, 10 and it's in here, Section 10. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Section 10, I think, talks 12 about -- 13 MS. HYDE: By court order. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- phone pagers and all kinds 15 of stuff. 16 MS. HYDE: We want to move some of this stuff 17 around. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it looks -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Pretty simple to me. 20 MS. HYDE: I think some of it, the terminology, you 21 know, like what you were just saying, "approval." That makes 22 people think that John is saying yes or no, you can have 23 this. Maybe that's not a good term. Maybe we need to call 24 it something else. But somehow our I.T. people need to -- 25 the policy states that we're not going to buy nothing without 6-22-09 wk 81 1 it going through I.T. That's what it says. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that's what it should. 3 And if he says -- if he says no, that's not a good thing, 4 don't buy it. I mean, what -- where's the difficulty in 5 that? He and I just had a knock-down-drag-out about that 6 last week. If he says -- you know, if one of our departments 7 wants to look at some software, you got to talk to John 8 before you do anything. If John says no, we don't buy it. I 9 don't get it. I don't get what the problem is here. Do you? 10 All right, then, let's go home. Let's go to the State 11 Hospital and get drunk. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's do it. Tempest in a 13 teapot. Let's go. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Is that it for the workshop? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Till we meet again. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Hearing nothing further, we will 17 adjourn the workshop. 18 (Workshop was adjourned at 3:12 p.m.) 19 - - - - - - - - - - 20 21 22 23 24 25 6-22-09 wk 82 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 30th day of June, 2009. 8 9 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 10 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 11 Certified Shorthand Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6-22-09 wk