1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, July 27, 2009 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X July 27, 2009 2 PAGE 3 --- Commissioners' Comments 6 4 1.1 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to have ATM installed in the 1st floor lobby 8 5 1.3 Presentation by Margie Jetton, Better Consumer 6 Choices, of Guardian Vendor Management Program 20 7 1.5 Presentation on proposed new library facility and campus 25 8 1.2 Acknowledge receipt of quarterly investment 9 report from Patterson and Associates for quarter ending 6-30-09 41 10 1.4 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 11 adopt rules for Flat Rock Lake Park requiring all animals to be on a leash at all times and not 12 restrict them to any particular area of the park 41 13 1.13 Public Hearing vacating lot lines on Lots 216 through 222 in Center Point Estates, Unit II 63 14 1.14 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 15 vacate lot lines on Lots 216 through 222 in Center Point Estates, Unit II -- 16 1.15 Public Hearing abandoning a road easement in 17 Center Point Estates, as shown in Volume 3, Page 103 of Kerr County Plat Records 83 18 1.16 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 19 abandon a road and convey to the owner in Center Point Estates, as shown in Volume 3, Page 103 20 of Kerr County Plat Records -- 21 1.6 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to authorize participation by Road and Bridge with 22 City of Kerrville on a sealcoating project for Meadow View Lane 85 23 1.7 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 24 amend plat for Lots 9 and 10 of Sleepy Hollow, Section Two, pursuant to Subdivision Rules/Regs 87 25 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) July 27, 2009 2 PAGE 1.8 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action for 3 approval on removing cattle guards on Wilson Creek Rd., Precinct 3 90 4 1.9 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 5 purchase used FEMA trailer from Texas Facilities Commission Federal Surplus Property Program 93 6 1.10 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 7 accept Mira Vista Lane N. in The Ranches of Sunset Ridge Subdivision and release the 8 maintenance bond, Precinct 3 95 9 1.11 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to determine what areas in Zone A floodplain should 10 be studied 96, 133 11 1.12 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to accept proposal from John Hewitt for Emergency 12 Action Plan for Ingram Lake Dam, Precinct 4 107 13 1.17 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to authorize Kerr County Maintenance Supervisor 14 to go out for bid for electrical, plumbing, HVAC, and pest control services 113 15 1.18 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action 16 regarding approving inmate telephone service agreement with Global Tel*Link Corporation 113 17 1.19 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action 18 regarding renewal of Texas Department of Public Safety Interlocal Cooperation Contract 114 19 1.20 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 20 adopt amended bylaws/resolution dealing with membership and duties of Library Board as 21 adopted by the Library Advisory Board 115 22 1.22 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action concerning adoption of child safety fees by 23 Kerr County as permitted by TexDOT 117 24 1.23 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on proposed Disaster/Emergency Employee Policy 25 which allows reimbursement for employees during disasters as permitted by state and federal regs 120 4 1 I N D E X (Continued) July 27, 2009 2 PAGE 1.24 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 3 return check to Hill Country Community MHMR on CSU road/parking lot project 123 4 1.25 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 5 write letter of support to LCRA on behalf of Tierra Linda Volunteer Fire Department for their 6 grant request to help purchase new tanker truck 124 7 1.26 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve and adopt Personnel Policy 125 8 1.27 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 9 declare certain personal property as surplus; authorize County Clerk to trade/dispose of same 126 10 1.28 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 11 afford public access to Kerr County wells at Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center and little 12 league fields & associated issues 127 13 1.21 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve and adopt ETJ agreement with City of 14 Kerrville 136 15 1.29 Consider/discuss, take appropriate actions regarding Court Compliance payments plans; who 16 sets plans, who has authority to set plans, and when payments are made 149 17 18 4.1 Pay Bills 155 4.2 Budget Amendments 158 19 4.3 Late Bills --- 4.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 165 20 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee 21 Assignments 166 5.2 Reports from Elected Officials/Department Heads 173 22 --- Adjourned 180 23 24 25 5 1 On Monday, July 27, 2009, at 9:00 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 8 Let me call to order this regularly scheduled meeting of the 9 Kerr County Commissioners Court posted and scheduled for this 10 date and time, Monday, July 27, 2009, at 9 a.m. It is that 11 time now. Commissioner Oehler? 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes, sir. Please rise; we'll 13 have an invocation and also a pledge of allegiance. 14 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Please be seated. At 16 this time, if there's any member of the public or audience 17 that wishes to be heard on a matter that is not a listed 18 agenda item, this is your opportunity to come forward and 19 tell us what's on your mind. If you wish to be heard on an 20 agenda item, we'd ask that you fill out a participation form. 21 There should be some located at the rear of the room. It's 22 not absolutely essential that you do that; it just helps me 23 to know that we have individuals that wish to be heard on 24 specific items. However, if we get to an agenda item that 25 you've not filled out a participation form and you do wish to 7-27-09 6 1 be heard, get my attention in some manner and I'll see that 2 you have a reasonable opportunity to do so. But if there's 3 anyone that wishes to be heard on any matter that is not a 4 listed agenda item, come forward at this time, tell us what's 5 on your mind. Seeing no one coming forward, let's move on 6 with the agenda. Commissioner Oehler? 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll keep it short; we got a 8 long agenda. Last week I had the occasion to have a 9 conversation with TexDOT regarding the closing of 1340 during 10 bridge construction at Mayhew Crossing, which is close to 11 Stonehenge. The committee -- the bridge committee in Hunt 12 took a vote and it was split, but the people that voted no on 13 closing the road for two days felt like their vote carried a 14 little more weight. So, I called TexDOT and told them, "No 15 deal, you're going to have to do it the way it's originally 16 billed, no deviation, built half a section at a time." The 17 contractor got hold of TexDOT and said, "I got another deal 18 for you." And the reason that the residents were opposed to 19 it is because it was going to cut off EMS, fire, and 20 Sheriff's Department, so they kind of -- they countered back 21 and said, "Well, I tell you what, we'll guarantee that an 22 emergency lane will be open during the time of that 23 construction if that will help get it changed to where we can 24 do that, because it will save two months on the process and 25 probably a couple hundred thousand dollars. So, I called all 7-27-09 7 1 of them individually, got them all to agree to it, and it's a 2 done deal. And the committee -- all, I think, except one or 3 two members voted yea, and -- but the ones that are directly 4 affected voted for it, so that will proceed, and the closure 5 date for that is scheduled to be September the 11th, 6 6 o'clock in the evening until 5 o'clock on Monday morning, 7 and it'll be open again. But that -- that's some good news. 8 It took most of the day to get that done, but it did happen, 9 and I think it's the right thing to do, and we're all trying 10 to save money. And, you know, people talk about it, but 11 we're really going to do it. So, that's really all I have to 12 say. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Isn't it amazing what a little 14 communication will do? 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: A lot of communication. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If they have to get out, 17 they can always run around to Highway 41. It's a long ways, 18 but -- 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Either stay home or go around 20 the long way. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yep. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or I guess they can walk 23 across the river and get a friend to pick them up. It's 24 pretty shallow right there. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: What do you have for us, 7-27-09 8 1 Commissioner Baldwin? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'm not going to 3 bring up anything at this time. Later on, I have some things 4 on my mind, believe it or not. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Commissioner Williams? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Same, Judge. Nothing right 7 now. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let's get to work. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's get on with our agenda. The 11 first item on the agenda is to consider, discuss, take 12 appropriate action to have an ATM installed in the first 13 floor lobby. Ms. Lyle? 14 MS. LYLE: Morning. I'm proposing to have an ATM 15 installed on the first floor within the courthouse as a tool 16 for convenience for taxpayers as well as employees for the 17 courthouse. Where the pay phone is installed right now, next 18 to County Court at Law, they would have access to a pay phone 19 -- I'm sorry, to a long distance line there, to electricity, 20 and also security, which is three requirements for the ATM. 21 I've contacted Security State Bank, which is the bank that 22 the County already uses, and talked with Mr. Steve Watson 23 about this, and we've kind of come up with a -- a good plan 24 to have it installed within a fair amount of time. I thought 25 if he had anything to say or if you had any questions for 7-27-09 9 1 him, maybe he could come up and speak to you about the 2 agreement. I did provide each of you with a copy of the 3 agreement which would have to be signed. I did run it by Rex 4 Emerson to make sure that everything was kosher and okay, and 5 he is in agreement with the -- with the lease agreement. So, 6 Mr. Watson, do you want to come up here and maybe speak a 7 little bit about the specifics of it? 8 MR. WATSON: Thank y'all. We were just contacted 9 -- Terry contacted me -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: If you'd be kind enough to tell us 11 who you are and where you're from so we could have that in 12 the record? 13 MR. WATSON: Okay, I'm sorry. Steve Watson. I'm 14 Senior Vice President/C.F.O. for Security State Bank. We 15 have one of our branches here in Fredericksburg, and we're 16 headquartered -- here in Kerrville; we're headquartered out 17 of Fredericksburg. Terry had contacted me some time ago 18 about the possibility of us putting an ATM here in the 19 courthouse. They'd been to some seminar or something, and I 20 think it was something that was suggested that they go back 21 to their local counties and see what the possibility was of 22 having that done. We were glad to check into it. We did. 23 We've just had one extended -- it's not at our branch 24 locations -- at one place, and checked to see what was 25 involved with it. We would take all the expense, with the 7-27-09 10 1 exception of the electricity; the County would be out the 2 electricity. We'd take the phone line expense and the 3 installation and -- and everything involved with installing 4 it here in the courthouse. Be set up in the location where 5 she described. It's very satisfactory. You have plenty of 6 security there. The doors are locked when you're not open. 7 Appears there's two cameras there that are positioned real 8 well. If somebody used it and said they didn't use it, we 9 could get a pretty good picture of who it was that used the 10 ATM card. And it would be available to anybody with an ATM 11 card, debit card, for cash withdrawals. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You say you need a phone 13 line? 14 MR. WATSON: Yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What kind of a phone? It has 16 to be a hard line? 17 MR. WATSON: Yes, sir, it would be an analog line. 18 We'll -- we would have it set up for dial-up until we can see 19 what kind of activity's involved on the machine. If the 20 activity warranted it, we'd have a continuous line on the 21 thing. But it would basically be a long-distance call which 22 we would pay for as it's used. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- Terry, have either you 24 or Mr. Watson talked with Mr. Trolinger? 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He's out of town. 7-27-09 11 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Out of town. And the reason 2 is, phone lines are very difficult to come by in the 3 courthouse because of the number of available lines. 4 MR. WATSON: Mm-hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I'm not sure if we can 6 easily -- or -- 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't think there is one. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know if there's an 9 available line. May be hard to find, and I'm not sure they 10 can bring in just a line. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it would be an 12 off-system line, wouldn't be part of the main system. It 13 would be a dedicated line for that ATM. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They could bring in another 15 line with the cable size and such? Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ms. Lyle, if you would just 17 take a minute and explain so the public can hear what you 18 believe is the reason for placing an ATM -- 19 MS. LYLE: The reason for placing the ATM, I 20 visited with several offices within the courthouse, and 21 they're all in agreement with me, in that it's convenience. 22 We have a couple come in, let's say, to pay their taxes, and 23 they're $200 short. "Let me go to the bank and get the 24 money." Well, there's an ATM right outside the door; you can 25 go get the cash from there. I don't know about you, but if 7-27-09 12 1 somebody told me I had to come back with more money, I 2 probably wouldn't come back the same day. I had intended to 3 come to the courthouse to make my payment. I can't make it; 4 I have to go get money, come back to the courthouse again. I 5 probably would not come back again. And several offices have 6 -- have told me the exact same thing. People say they're 7 going to go to the bank, get the money and come back. They 8 never come back, at least not for two, three days. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And it particularly 10 benefits your court collections? 11 MS. LYLE: It would benefit my office, in addition. 12 Court days for Jannett, she would take cash. Any other days, 13 she would not take cash, but on court days she would take 14 cash. And so people having to pay their court costs that 15 day, in lieu of having to send them to the bank, they could 16 go get the money from the ATM and come right back and pay. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Pieper, you had a question or 20 comment? 21 MS. PIEPER: Yes, sir. That was years ago that we 22 made a statement of no cash -- of no checks or whatever, cash 23 only or whatever on court days. But we've been taking credit 24 cards now for a good while, all three of our offices, 25 district court, tax. So, I would prefer not to accept cash 7-27-09 13 1 because of all the bookkeeping involved and all the handling 2 of the cash. I would prefer to keep my credit card system 3 that we have. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This wouldn't impinge on 5 your credit card system, would it? 6 MS. PIEPER: No, but if somebody would -- would go 7 out and take -- swipe their ATM debit/credit card, whatever, 8 I prefer them to do it in my office, because I don't want 9 cash. I would prefer their credit card in my office. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: If they would otherwise use that 11 same card for the purpose of going to the ATM machine, 12 wouldn't your people have the option to say, "We'll accept 13 your credit card without you having to go to the ATM 14 machine"? 15 MS. PIEPER: Oh, yes. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 17 MS. PIEPER: We have signs up, but, you know, if 18 somebody comes directly out of court and goes directly to 19 the -- to an ATM machine once they get assigned a fine and 20 court cost, they may not realize it. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just see this thing as a 22 convenient service to the taxpayers. I mean, that's bottom 23 line to the thing. And it enhances her department, and I 24 guess others. I don't know about others, but I know that 25 there are times when people come in to make payments to her, 7-27-09 14 1 and her job is to collect money for the county. You know, 2 "There's a credit card machine out there; go out there and 3 get some cash and give it to me." 4 MS. PIEPER: They don't make payments in her 5 office. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Ms. Clerk. 7 MS. PIEPER: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm well aware of that, but 9 I think it's a service to the taxpayers. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hargis, you had a comment? 11 MS. HARGIS: Cash is a problem. We're trying to 12 get away from cash. All courthouses are trying to get away 13 from cash because of the possibility of fraud. Also, having 14 a lot of cash in the building is a problem. That means we 15 have to have a clerk who has to take that cash to the bank 16 every day, because we have more cash. I think Jannett's 17 office and Linda's office as well, and I think even Diane's 18 office would prefer the credit cards over the cash, because 19 it's -- it -- you know, it's just more of a problem. It 20 opens up more fraud. It's just mostly auditors -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Opens up more fraud? We 22 have some fraud here? 23 MS. HARGIS: No, it's -- the possibility with cash 24 is there. And that is the -- that's the reason why we've 25 gone away from the cash. And it's -- you know, it's just not 7-27-09 15 1 a preferable system because of the problems in having to have 2 a clerk take cash. There's more liability involved with that 3 person being -- you know, with the money bag. And, you know, 4 I -- I just prefer that we don't have that much cash in the 5 building. I mean, we've gotten away from it, and -- and 6 that's the reason why we've gotten away from it. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a question. It's 8 probably a pretty stupid question to most people in the 9 audience, but I frequently have those. What is the 10 difference between using a debit card -- I mean, can't -- if 11 they -- if you have a credit card swipe machine, doesn't that 12 -- isn't that the same as an ATM from the standpoint of -- of 13 cash to somebody, really? I mean, if they're going to be 14 paying with a debit card, which is the same as an ATM card, 15 sort of -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: ATM card. It seems it's the 18 same thing. 19 MR. WATSON: Y'all are set up -- if y'all are 20 handling credit card sales, the County would be set up as a 21 merchant through some process, and I would imagine y'all are 22 paying some discount, whatever that might be, for those 23 charges, and that's an expense to the County. A debit card 24 is different from a -- a credit card in that that cash has to 25 be in that account at the bank, so when they swipe it, it's 7-27-09 16 1 running out there to the bank, seeing there's cash there, and 2 coming back. You can swipe a debit card on a credit card 3 terminal and use it as what they call a point of sale 4 transaction, and that can be used on a credit card merchant 5 terminal one of two ways, as a credit transaction, which 6 you're paying your -- your fee there, or a point of sale, 7 where they have to enter their pin number for it to be 8 transmitted. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Pieper, what is -- is there not 10 a mark-up to the -- to the citizen if they use a credit card? 11 MS. PIEPER: Yeah. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: You charge a mark-up fee? 13 MS. PIEPER: There's a convenience fee. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: A convenience fee, okay. 15 MS. PIEPER: Therefore, there's no cost to the 16 County to have the credit or debit card, but there is a 17 convenience fee to the -- to the user, the cardholder. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And how much is that? 19 MS. PIEPER: It depends on the amount of the -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. How about $150? What would 21 the mark-up be? 22 MS. PIEPER: Cheryl, can you answer that? 23 MS. THOMPSON: I don't know. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: What's if it's 500? What would the 25 mark-up be? 7-27-09 17 1 MS. PIEPER: Well, right off, I couldn't tell you. 2 MS. UECKER: It doesn't show on our system. It 3 just shows on -- when the statement comes through on the 4 users. It doesn't show us how much of that they're charged 5 for the user fee. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I guess my point is, it 7 occurs to me that we're here to serve the public, not to 8 serve ourselves. And while it may be more convenient for us 9 and cause less hassle for us to not have the public have this 10 convenience, we work for them. Whatever's best for them, I 11 think, is what we want to do, isn't it? They're going to pay 12 a mark-up to be able to use their credit card. If they pay 13 you in cash, there's no mark-up. 14 MS. HARGIS: Judge, there is. If they don't use 15 Security State Bank, if they're not a Security State Bank 16 account holder, they will pay at that ATM on their account. 17 MR. WATSON: There's a surcharge of $2.50 for a 18 noncustomer, yes. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand. But that's the 20 customer's election at that point. That's the citizen's 21 election. 22 MS. PIEPER: At either point when they come in with 23 a credit card, ours will show what the convenience fee is, 24 and we -- we have them acknowledge that that's okay or not. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, of course. They don't have 7-27-09 18 1 much choice at that point, though, do they? 2 MS. PIEPER: Yes. If they choose not to do it, 3 then that's fine. That's -- we void it out. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And they could walk out in 6 the lobby and use the ATM and avoid it, could they not? 7 MS. PIEPER: Well, they can go out and pay the fee 8 on the ATM machine. It's whatever they choose. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who bears the cost of the 10 telephone line? 11 MR. WATSON: We would. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: They do. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there's a -- I mean, 14 seems like there's two issues here. One's a policy issue as 15 to accepting cash. If we're accepting cash, then I think 16 it's the next step on the ATM. If we're not going to accept 17 cash, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have an ATM. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I didn't hear anybody say 19 we have a policy not to accept cash. I just heard an 20 expression they prefer not to. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think we can refuse to 22 accept cash. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't either. I don't 24 either. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: If a citizen wants to take care of 7-27-09 19 1 an obligation they have, I think if they tender cash, we're 2 obliged to take it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Without any mark-up. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Uecker, you had a comment? 7 MS. UECKER: You know, I just want to say I don't 8 -- I don't have a problem with the ATM machine at all. And I 9 don't -- I'd probably use it personally. But, you know, I 10 take checks, I take money orders, I take -- definitely take 11 cash. We take whatever we can get. In God we trust; all 12 others pay cash. (Laughter.) And just the point, you know, 13 we take a lot of money from felons. I've never once had a 14 returned check on a criminal or on a felon. Most of the 15 returned checks come from lawyers. (Laughter.) So -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whoa. 17 MS. UECKER: I've never had a returned check, and I 18 will -- I will continue to take cash. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On that happy note, I think 20 -- I think it's worth a try. If we don't like it, we can 21 always do something about it, and I move approval of the 22 agenda item. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 25 approval of the agenda item. Further question or discussion 7-27-09 20 1 on that motion? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: One question. Rex, did you 3 sign off on this thing? 4 MR. EMERSON: I did. And, in fact, that's the 5 revised version of the contract. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Further question or discussion? All 10 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Thank you, 15 sir. Thank you, Ms. Lyle. 16 MS. LYLE: Thank you. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to our 9:15 item, if we 18 might, a presentation by Margie Jetton, Better Consumer 19 Choices, Guardian Vendor Management program. Ms. Jetton? 20 MS. JETTON: Good morning. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Morning. 22 MS. JETTON: Thank you. And, Mr. Letz, I'm sorry; 23 you're the only one that I didn't get to meet with, and I 24 hope you got my message. I did not mean to stand you up. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, I did get your message. 7-27-09 21 1 MS. JETTON: Okay, good. You've got in front of 2 you the Guardian Vendor Management packet. Basically, it's 3 something that has to do -- well, I made it through Better 4 Consumer Choices, because we were already in sort of the 5 security realm anyway. What it is, is that we make sure that 6 the vendors that come into a place, like a hospital or the 7 County or a bank, or anyplace that has any sensitive data or 8 patients or vulnerable people, we make sure that not only the 9 company, the vendor that's coming in -- let's say the 10 plumber, electrician, the A/C people -- that not only that 11 company is liable, but the employees that are entering the 12 premises also have been thoroughly checked out using our 13 system, which is quite a bit more intense than the state, 14 because the state only checks D.P.S. records. We check the 15 four national databases that work independently of each 16 other. We check the federal prison records. We probably do 17 many of the things that Rusty does when he checks people 18 coming into his facilities, and they are also then given 19 photo ID's that anyone can see that has the expiration date 20 of that background check, so that we continue to monitor it 21 and make sure. And it costs the County nothing. All I'm 22 asking is that when you consider hiring vendors that are not 23 a bid process item, that are below -- I believe someone told 24 me it's now $50,000 instead of $25,000? That you think about 25 using an extra level of security and using businesses that 7-27-09 22 1 are approved by Better Consumer Choices on the Guardian plan. 2 Questions? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Any expense to the County? 4 MS. JETTON: None. This is vendor-sponsored. Our 5 members pay us a monthly fee, and they use our web site to 6 prescreen their employees. Like, for example, Schreiner 7 University already uses our web site to prescreen their own 8 employees, so just -- all I'm asking is that when the 9 departments are thinking about it, give us -- just consider 10 it. Our vendors are on the web sites, and -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is something that's just a 12 -- if we choose to do it one time, we -- next time, we -- 13 MS. JETTON: Sure. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Might be a different situation? 15 MS. JETTON: Of course. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 'Cause you wouldn't 17 necessarily, probably, need some of the established vendors 18 that we have, that we've done business with that may not 19 subscribe to your service. That wouldn't stop us from using 20 them. 21 MS. JETTON: That wouldn't stop you from using 22 them. It is something -- if you want to nominate a business 23 to be with us, we do go to them and explain how it works, 24 because there are some companies that do not want us to check 25 their employees, and there's sometimes reasons for that. I 7-27-09 23 1 have found in the last eight years that some people that said 2 that they did background checks, even here locally -- and I'm 3 not going to name any names. I said, "Well, that's great. 4 What are you already doing?" And they said, "We do 5 face-to-face interviews." And I said, "Really?" And then 6 I've had the instance where they only use -- I would say, 7 "What kind of background checks do you do?" And they go, 8 "$6.95." And I go, "What?" And they said, "Well, $6.95." 9 And I said, "What do you mean?" We go -- they do the online. 10 And a lot of even home health care agencies use that. And 11 they had no idea what they were actually getting for the 12 6.95. Most of the time it was just checking with the D.P.S., 13 and if you do that, you're not going to catch a murderer from 14 Oklahoma. You're only going to check -- check things that 15 have happened here in Texas, and that's it. Any questions? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is part of your business with 17 the vendors -- I didn't know these questions to ask on the 18 day that I met with you, but do the vendors that subscribe to 19 your program, does it give them, I guess -- I guess it does 20 in some way give them an advantage because of the background 21 checks, but also is there advertising of those companies done 22 through your company? 23 MS. JETTON: On the -- is the advertising done 24 through our company? I don't think of us as doing 25 advertising, but yes, there's testimonials on the last page 7-27-09 24 1 in your packet of some vendors locally that have come 2 forward. Has it increased their business? Definitely. Sure 3 it has. Because most people, even noncommercial, but 4 residents, would rather go to a list that they knew was safe 5 rather than just go to a phone book or something like that, 6 and that proves nothing of the individual. So, has it helped 7 the vendors? Sure, of course it has. Do we think of ourself 8 as advertising? No. We think of ourself as a designation 9 and a destination. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I would assume the advertising 11 component is more what the vendor would do, where they would 12 advertise that -- 13 MS. JETTON: Yes. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that their business is a member 15 of, or their employees are checked through, or -- 16 MS. JETTON: Right. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: -- something to that effect? 18 MS. JETTON: I'm really excited, because now in San 19 Antonio I'm starting to see Aramendia trucks and all these 20 big companies, and they -- our logo's on the side, and all 21 their employees are wearing our badges, so yeah, it's great. 22 Okay? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think it's a good service. 24 It's another firewall of protection for us, the way I see it. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Doesn't require anything of 7-27-09 25 1 us, right? 2 MS. JETTON: Hmm-mm. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. 4 MS. JETTON: Thank you. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate you taking the time to be 6 here. 7 MS. JETTON: Appreciate it. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go now to our 9:30 item, Item 9 Number 5, a presentation on the proposed new library facility 10 and campus. Mr. Lewis is here. 11 MR. LEWIS: What do I do, step over here to the 12 controls? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 14 MS. MABRY: You can move it. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 MR. LEWIS: I can speak from here if everybody can 17 hear me. Does that work? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sure. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure, fine by me. 20 MR. LEWIS: Let me do that. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That way we can watch what 22 you're doing. 23 MR. LEWIS: Do you want to read it for me? What 24 are my controls, someone? And then we'll start. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 7-27-09 26 1 MS. MABRY: Just advance that way. 2 MR. LEWIS: Does this do it? 3 MS. MABRY: This is the back button, back and 4 forward. 5 MS. HARGIS: Tess, why don't you run it for him? 6 MR. LEWIS: All right. I'll go back to the podium. 7 Good morning, Judge, Commissioners. Thank you for the 8 opportunity to be here this morning. I'm here on behalf of a 9 bunch of folks. I do have with me this morning Kaye Lenox, 10 who is the president of and C.E.O. of the San Antonio Public 11 Library Foundation, who's been one of our leaders and an 12 inspiration to us. On behalf of all the rest of planning, I 13 want to thank you. I'm here to present a new vision for the 14 Butt-Holdsworth Library. Would you go back to the very first 15 slide? Thank you. Just hold onto that. A lot of time and 16 thought has gone into this plan, and many, many dedicated 17 people have collaborated to make it possible. In addition to 18 all the citizens who participated in surveys about the 19 library, we give a special thanks to Mr. Charles Butt for his 20 generous gift that made this master plan possible. 21 For those that don't know, Mr. Butt pledged a 22 million dollars over a four-year period to the -- for the 23 improvement of the library building, as well as paying for 24 the -- all of the preliminary design work that we 25 participated in. Our design team was comprised of Kaye 7-27-09 27 1 Lenox, Jill Giles with Giles Design in San Antonio, William 2 Reynolds, Senior Vice President with H.E.B.'s Facility 3 Alliance, and myself. Our leadership team was comprised of 4 Mayor Bock, County Judge Pat Tinley, Councilman Scott Gross, 5 Greg Nichols with H.E.B., Victoria Wilson, who is our 6 development leader, Brian Bondy, Guy Overby and Joe Herring, 7 Dr. Huddleston and the Friends of the Library and the Library 8 Advisory Board. I didn't want to forget anybody. 9 In a paper entitled, "The Importance of Public 10 Libraries" prepared for the city of Kerrville by Providence 11 Associates, it stated the world of the public library is 12 changing as the needs and expectations of communities change. 13 Today's public libraries must anticipate and respond to 14 changing demographics that include more culturally and 15 ethnically diverse communities, increased number of senior 16 citizens, more families with young children living in the 17 urban environments, et cetera. A compelling number of 18 national studies conclude that libraries are an important 19 part of the social and cultural fabric of communities. And 20 among the new roles libraries are assuming is the role of 21 library as community center. Furthermore, three recent 22 studies address the economic impact of libraries on 23 communities, concluding that public libraries are important 24 elements of a community's economic development. 25 And it was perhaps with this in mind that Charles 7-27-09 28 1 Butt contacted Kaye Lenox in early 2008 expressing his 2 concerns about the future of our library, which was built in 3 1967. Kaye had been involved with the very successful 4 reimagining of several libraries in the San Antonio area, 5 including the Tobin and Landa Branch libraries. Both 6 projects included the rehabilitation and creative reuse of 7 existing library space, incorporation of current technology, 8 and information management systems and the redevelopment of 9 their site surrounds to create a community-friendly, 10 park-like campus setting. As we began to focus on what this 11 meant to our library, we realized that our site has all of 12 these opportunities, but it also has something that no others 13 do, and that is 400 feet of beautiful Guadalupe riverfront. 14 When you view you the library from the air, which most of us 15 can't do, you're immediately struck by the beauty and power 16 of its setting. It is an urban site perched on the edge of 17 our wonderful river, with direct access to Tranquility Park, 18 Tranquility Island, Louise Hays Park. Now, on the Water 19 Street side, it's a quick walk to the downtown area, the 20 courthouse, shops, banks, restaurants. And this, coupled 21 with the unique architecture of the library and the history 22 of the building, was all we needed to begin. 23 The scope of our work included several things, 24 including review of previous studies and recommendations, 25 2008 City of Kerrville Municipal Facilities Master Plan, and 7-27-09 29 1 the Providence Group study which I referenced. We conducted 2 facility surveys and documentation, which means we drew up 3 all of the existing additions, we made site visits to our 4 libraries in San Antonio, specifically the Landa campus, and 5 the Judge was able to join us on one of those. We had 6 meetings and discussions with all the various stakeholder 7 groups, staff advisory board, Friends of the Library, others, 8 and finally we began our campus master planning. Next slide. 9 This is the existing site. We've got -- there are 10 four buildings; the library itself, which faces Water Street, 11 with a service entrance on the back side. Currently there 12 are 72 parking spaces on the site. The building in the 13 middle that says "existing building" -- I have a pointer, but 14 it doesn't seem to work on your screen, so I'm just going to 15 talk. 433 Water Street, the building in the middle, the -- 16 the Kerr County History Center on the far right-hand side, 17 and then the annex or the little carriage house in the back 18 behind the history center. There are a number of 19 substantial -- thank you -- number of substantial existing 20 trees. There is a little Treaty Oak, which came from an 21 acorn that came from Treaty Oak in Austin, the Davy Crockett 22 Oak planted by Ladybird when the library was dedicated in 23 1967; it sits in the middle of the property along the river's 24 edge, and a variety of other mature pecan trees and oak 25 trees. And then scattered throughout the trees are tiles 7-27-09 30 1 with quotes. The quotes are from classic contemporary 2 literature, which is one of Mrs. Butt's hallmark signatures. 3 If you've been to H.E.B. Foundation, the Laity Lodge campus, 4 they have these on those sites as well. Next slide. 5 As we began to look at the site, it was our goal to 6 create a substantial design weaving newly shaped space into 7 the fabric of the existing campus, and thus respecting the 8 history of the place while making room for the future. First 9 thing you'll notice is that in the middle of the site, the 10 433 Water Street is gone. We attempted -- we looked at a lot 11 of ways to try and use the building, and the age and 12 condition and the placement of the building sort of preempted 13 that. Access is still going to be off of Water Street. 14 Vehicle access from Water Street, pedestrian access from 15 Tranquility Park. We still have two curb cuts, but we 16 redesigned the parking. The site will be graded down to 17 provide more gentle transitions from Water Street down to the 18 river's edge. Existing trees and landscape are maintained, 19 and new sustainable low-maintenance, drought-tolerant 20 landscaping will be envisioned. We will provide space for 21 community gardens. We do have -- in this new plan, we have 22 72 designated parking spaces, so we have provided a 23 comparable number as exist today. 24 We propose a pedestrian crossing down by the bottom 25 left here -- keep going down, down, down. Right over to your 7-27-09 31 1 right there. That would be a signalized crossing. We're 2 also in conversation with the City Engineer about maybe doing 3 a signalized intersection at Quinlan Street. The library 4 front door faces -- still faces Water Street, but when we see 5 the plans in a minute, you'll see we've sort of reengineered 6 how you approach that, and in the back we've provided a 7 playground adjacent to the amphitheater that existed and has 8 been in use since the library was built. And then across the 9 back, we show some things that might take place along the 10 river's edge; perhaps boardwalk, pavilions, some things to 11 tie into the river trail system as that grows. I'll come 12 back to the library main building in a minute. 13 Generally, we are proposing improvements to all of 14 the buildings on the campus, and with respect to the site 15 with the history center, we have brought parking closer to 16 the front door. There's a -- there's a wheelchair ramp there 17 now. We would make it just more accessible and more usable, 18 and then provide access to the annex in the back. And the -- 19 that is a space that will be dedicated and used by the 20 Friends of the Library for their book sale and their ongoing 21 operations. As we begin to -- begin to look at the library 22 building -- go to the next slide, please. This is that -- 23 just the existing floor plan entrance on the -- main entrance 24 on the bottom side, covered, but outside exterior balcony on 25 the top part. You go up -- over to your left a little. Keep 7-27-09 32 1 going. Keep going. One more. That's all right. Everyone 2 here is familiar with the library. 3 Primary consideration was given to preservation of 4 the library shell and structure. We didn't want to build 5 outside of the existing structure, but we do propose 6 enhancements to protect the existing building; a new roof, 7 increased insulation. We propose to replace all the doors 8 and windows, put insulating units in, like not unlike what 9 the County is doing with the courthouse building now. New 10 interior and exterior lighting, more efficient lighting, 11 energy efficient, and as well as providing better lighting 12 levels, new air conditioning and heating systems, and 13 reallocated items. Based on previous studies that were 14 done -- and there were a number; there have been three major 15 ones that have been done over the last ten years -- the 16 needs, the wish list, included technology integration, with 17 WiFi campus-wide, so that -- and you can go to the next 18 slide, if you'd like. 19 Additional square footage for materials and 20 programming, designated spaces for children, teen, and youth 21 programming, staff usability and functionality, 22 accessibility, meeting rooms available after hours for 23 community use, sensitivity to the historic values of the 24 library, and input from various stakeholders, including 25 library staff, Friends group, Library Board, staff, et 7-27-09 33 1 cetera. We still, obviously, have the main entrance off of 2 Water Street, but we've reconfigured it so you enter directly 3 into it. Instead of coming from the sides, we've got a 4 wheelchair ramp that curves along the -- the side of the 5 building. It will bring people in from the parking spaces. 6 We have provided bike parking. Our service entrance is still 7 on the lower level. 8 We have not really -- we haven't planned all of the 9 interior. What we have done is -- our charge was to find 10 space on all -- all levels. We have captured space that is 11 inside the perimeter of the -- the limits of the library 12 walls without adding to it. We've increased the usable 13 air-conditioned area by about 15 percent, without adding -- 14 without expanding the building footprint. And, so, on the 15 first floor, we have enclosed -- we propose to enclose the 16 balcony, and you can see on this slide that it is identified 17 as a children's area, open up the rotunda to -- and bring the 18 reference desk down in the center. Then you'll see from left 19 to right, kind of bottom, 7 o'clock, reference, computer, 20 youth, children. 21 Currently, the restrooms on the main floor are 22 separated. The men's are over on the bottom left; the 23 women's are up top right by the stairs. We propose to 24 consolidate those, for functionality as well as for security. 25 That continues to be an issue. Next slide. The mezzanine as 7-27-09 34 1 it exists today. Next slide. And then we had proposed to 2 enclose the mezzanine level as well, that -- as above the 3 exterior balcony, adding to that increase in space. And, 4 again, just identifying spaces for use up here, we have 5 reading areas, stack space, some conference area, all within 6 the footprint of the existing building. Next slide, please. 7 There's our bottom level. On the bottom, the 8 bottom half of that is all maintenance and the Friends of the 9 Library; it's mechanical space. There's a computer -- the 10 server for the library is there, and the Friends of the 11 Library occupy the center section of it, and they operate 12 their book sale out of that space. Between 9 o'clock and 13 12 o'clock is the meeting room. You enter it from -- either 14 through the loading dock area or from the doors up there 15 around 10, 11 o'clock, if they -- if they're open. And then 16 there's quite a bit of loading dock area down there. There 17 is a small kitchen and men's and women's restroom. Next 18 slide, please. And what we -- the studies asked for 19 additional program space or additional staff space, 20 additional meeting room, and so that is what we will propose 21 here. We have captured space that is generally unused over 22 by the loading dock, limited the loading dock to -- thank 23 you -- limited the loading dock to just enough area for 24 trucks to back into, load and unload books and other 25 supplies. And then, say, on the bottom half, we have -- 7-27-09 35 1 because we propose -- the Friends propose to move to the 2 annex carriage house, free up space for technical services, 3 which will be staff functions and allowing more of the space 4 upstairs to be public space. 5 We've got three community rooms here, one in the 6 center and two off on the edge that face the amphitheater, a 7 kitchen that serves both inside functions and outside 8 functions. We have consolidated the men's and women's 9 restroom, and also increased the fixture count to make it 10 more usable, and then created a nice -- an entry vestibule 11 down there. That's space -- if you've ever been down on that 12 lower level of the library, it's kind of forbidding; it's 13 really not easy to figure out how to get in, so we've created 14 some vestibule entries. It's made it a place that you'd want 15 to meet, with elevator access between all floors, as well as 16 grade level access. And there's an existing elevator that is 17 out of commission right now that we will propose down right 18 there for the staff, and that will be staff-only for getting 19 books up and down from the second -- between the first, 20 second, and mezzanine. Next slide, please. 21 And then in the interior of the library, one of the 22 things that we thought a lot about was this large space. 23 That's a grand space when you back into the rotunda, but 24 volume is kind of overwhelming, and the lighting is not 25 adequate. There's fluorescent light fixtures on the ceiling, 7-27-09 36 1 and they're 20-something feet up in the air, 30 feet up in 2 the air. So, we propose to build a reference desk down in 3 the center of the rotunda and drop a canopy over it that 4 would have lighting, as well as give it a little more human 5 scale. That would be a reference desk; it would be 6 information, and as well as, because of its location, would 7 have access to all points of the main level and the upper 8 level, and just something to modify that space. And we have 9 proposed some suspended fixtures that would provide both up 10 lighting, down lighting, and then in other areas around the 11 library we would again propose new lighting, better, more 12 efficient lighting, better task lighting that would be 13 appropriate to all the different uses. 14 From the outside -- this would be a view, again, 15 from the air above Water Street. We don't -- we don't 16 propose additions -- major additions to the exterior of the 17 library itself. At the main entries and lower -- at the 18 Water Street entry and down at the lower level on the lower 19 part of the campus, we would add some shade trellises at the 20 main entries to identify those as entries, as well as provide 21 a little protection as you come into the building. And, 22 finally -- next slide -- and then the same view back down 23 from the -- this lower -- lower campus area. You'd be 24 looking out over our playground, and you can kind of see 25 them. We propose a shade structure above the amphitheater 7-27-09 37 1 and shade structures around the lower level between the 2 second and first floor to cover those entries and those 3 walls. What you're seeing there is, you're seeing glass all 4 on this back wall, so it's -- instead of looking at 5 balcony -- you know, exterior balcony, you'd see enclosed 6 space that would be given over to programs -- program space. 7 And that is -- that is our vision for the library. It's one 8 that we, as a team, believe in. We're proud of it, and we 9 humbly present it to you. And that's my story, and I'll 10 entertain any questions. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- I just have one 12 question, Peter. On the -- in the site plan, is it felt that 13 the addition of 15 percent additional space in the library is 14 sufficient for a library in a community of this type? Is 15 that a large enough building, long-term? 16 MR. LEWIS: We believe it is, and that's -- we 17 had -- Ms. Lenox and Jill Giles both have experience in 18 libraries, more than we do, so we -- we did our studies and 19 we brought in folks who know more than we do. And we felt 20 that with a realignment, reconfiguration of spaces, 21 reallocation -- for instance, the Friends of the Library, 22 there's very inefficient use of the lower level, and we're 23 going to put them in a space where they can more efficiently 24 conduct their sales. So, we've not only added that 25 15 percent, but we -- with the sort of reorganization of 7-27-09 38 1 spaces, we -- we believe and are convinced that it would 2 create a more efficient use. And, in fact, it's very 3 sufficient for on into the future. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Excellent. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? Comments? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: History Center. Are there any 7 renovations going on there? 8 MR. LEWIS: Yeah, and I've been -- I didn't mean to 9 slight the History Center. We're proposing that the second 10 floor would be finished out, as it currently is, not the 11 ground floor, so that an elevator cab would be installed in 12 that shaft that is there now, that shaft back there, and a 13 machine room for it, and then general cosmetic upgrades. The 14 work that was done there was done ten years ago now, so it's 15 really time to go back in and clean the brick up. But the 16 intent would be that you'd have a like-new campus when all of 17 this is done. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Carriage house requires 19 some renovation? 20 MR. LEWIS: Carriage house -- it does, and 21 additions to it as well to accommodate the Friends program 22 needs. And not only would the Friends use it, but it would 23 be a hospitality place that would open out on the -- onto the 24 lawn across the river's edge there. So -- and the Friends 25 would participate. They're committed about it, and we're 7-27-09 39 1 discussing how all that can take place. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The amphitheater that you 3 referenced, that opens up to the Tranquility Park or opens up 4 to the Water Street side? 5 MR. LEWIS: It opens up to the library itself. In 6 fact, it is the -- there's -- it's stair steps back there. 7 They are there now. They were built originally as part of 8 the library, and they face the back -- they face that 9 community meeting room. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 11 MR. LEWIS: The kids use it a lot. My kids kind of 12 grew up there. They did summer reading programs, and they 13 gather out there, they hear stories, they get awards. It's a 14 neat, neat place. It's got all these tiles in there that the 15 Friends and Mrs. -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I recall. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? Ms. Lenox, did you 18 have anything you wanted to offer? 19 MS. LENOX: No, I just want you to know it's been a 20 privilege to work on this vision, and you have a wonderful 21 library and a wonderful team. So, I appreciate it. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Ms. Roberts? Any 23 comment? I don't mean to put you on the spot. 24 MS. WILSON: Which last name are you going to use? 25 Well, I'm excited to be back involved in the library again. 7-27-09 40 1 This is just really exciting for me, and I think it's a 2 wonderful plan. And I appreciate your comments about the -- 3 the growth, because we were always -- about the -- like, the 4 17 percent increase in the space, and would that be adequate. 5 But I think that if you consider what's happening in 6 libraries, it's much more -- you know, you can think of it as 7 a digitization of the print record. Well, then you have a 8 digitization, almost, metaphorically, of the library 9 building. But 17 percent space in a building that size is a 10 lot, and I think it's -- and it's -- the way the designers 11 have worked it out, it's going to be much more efficiently 12 used, so I think it's a good plan. And it's -- the 13 difficulty is, who wants to raise money in this environment? 14 So -- but, you know, when you have a good product, it's a 15 pleasure to raise money for it. So that's -- we're real 16 excited, and appreciate your listening to our dream and our 17 vision, 'cause I know it's yours too. Thanks. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Thank you. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 21 MR. LEWIS: That's it. Thank you much. Appreciate 22 it. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We appreciate you bringing that to 24 us. Thank you very much. 25 MR. LEWIS: My pleasure. 7-27-09 41 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move on to Item 4 -- excuse 2 me, Item 2 on our agenda. Acknowledge receipt of the 3 quarterly investment report from Patterson and Associates for 4 the quarter ending June 30th, 2009. Ms. Williams, we only 5 need to acknowledge receipt of that report? 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 10 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 11 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's move 16 to Item 4 on the agenda; consider, discuss, and take 17 appropriate action to adopt rules for Flat Rock Lake Park 18 requiring all animals to be on a leash at all times, and not 19 restrict them to any particular area of the park. Ms. Whitt? 20 MS. WHITT: Good morning. Well, here we are again. 21 It's been a couple weeks since we were last here discussing 22 the same issue, and nothing's changed. Last week Marc Allen 23 and myself were out there again. We continue to have 24 complaints out there. But we were out there, and B.J. was 25 out there with his trustees. Maintenance was out there 7-27-09 42 1 cutting down a tree that had fallen over, along with Road and 2 Bridge. And while we were out there, we were patrolling the 3 area, and, of course, saw a yellow lab way down at the other 4 end of the park. So we stopped and spoke to the owner of the 5 lab, and, of course, all we get is arguments, saying that 6 their dogs aren't hurting anyone or anything. But, there 7 again, the animals are not under their direct control. So I 8 explained to this person that we were going to start issuing 9 citations. Before this happened, we did go to Rex and asked 10 Rex for the definition of "direct control." He printed out 11 copies. I handed this -- this person a copy of that, and as 12 we're leaving, his dog chases our truck. 13 I did get this on videotape; however, John is not 14 available to -- John was not available to install the 15 software needed to -- to download this video and copy it. 16 But B.J. from the Sheriff's Department and the maintenance 17 guys did witness this. As we stopped and spoke with B.J., 18 the trustees were out working, and the dogs were out, you 19 know, messing around with them. As these guys are working, 20 you have dogs going up to them. You have dogs running up to 21 people that are just simply out there walking, exercising. I 22 counted 15 people that day, and out of those 15 people, there 23 was only two people that picked up their dog's droppings. 24 This continues to be a problem, and I don't see that we're 25 going to solve this problem unless we require them to be on a 7-27-09 43 1 leash. I don't think we ought to restrict them to -- to any 2 particular area of the park, but I think they do need to be 3 on -- on leashes. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't -- I mean, as you know, 5 I haven't been really a big fan of putting them -- or 6 changing the policy there. Putting them on a leash isn't 7 going to solve the second problem. I mean -- 8 MS. WHITT: The dog poo? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 10 MS. WHITT: Well, sure. Sure. And that may be 11 true, but that -- honestly, that's not as much my concern as 12 the public safety. In my opinion, that's a big issue. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think last time, the 14 Court's action kind of foundered on the fact that we -- the 15 proposal was to require animals to be on leash all over the 16 park, and I think there may be some ability to compromise 17 that. I would like to make this comment, however, though. 18 We're trying to do some improvements to what I call the lower 19 section of the park, the original park, which would include 20 picnic tables and benches and things of that nature. I think 21 the public is better served if the animals that are brought 22 to the park in that particular section are on leash. I 23 understand there is a strong sentiment to have animals have 24 an area of the park that -- where they can run loose, and my 25 suggestion would be that we give it a try for what I call the 7-27-09 44 1 upper section, that section east of the bridge, and restrict 2 that to animals off leash. And the lower section, or the 3 larger section, to have animals on leash. That would be what 4 I think would be a reasonable compromise. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You don't restrict -- that just 6 means that they can be off leash in that upper -- the east 7 end of the park? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They can be taken up there 9 and be off leash. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Open to everybody? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely. 12 Absolutely. 13 MS. WHITT: But is that going to solve the problem? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know. 15 MS. WHITT: Or are we going to continue to have 16 arguments when we go out there and we issue someone a 17 citation for their dog not being under their direct control? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, that's -- that's a 19 possibility. 20 MS. WHITT: We have a job to do, and, I mean, I 21 can't -- it's very difficult for us to do our job when all we 22 get is arguments. And, I mean, we're going to end up 23 spending most of our time in court arguing these cases. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If we were to open up the 25 eastern park, the newer section -- the upper section, as I 7-27-09 45 1 call it -- and allow animals to be off leash up there, that's 2 -- that's a smaller section of park. And if they're -- if 3 they're confined to that area, would it not help your -- your 4 ability to enforce park regulations by having them there, as 5 opposed to having them all over the park? 6 MS. WHITT: No, not really. In my opinion, I don't 7 think we're going to solve anything by doing that. The dogs 8 are still going to -- I don't see how that's going to solve 9 any problems. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, one thing, Janie, it 11 will do is, most -- from what I know about the area, the boat 12 ramp area, what Bill's calling the lower area, I believe -- 13 is that correct? That area is more used by people just that 14 don't have dogs. And -- and it's also a real nice area for 15 people to walk dogs in and turn them loose. But I'm not an 16 advocate of letting that area be, you know, off-leash area. 17 I think we try it. If we can try it that way and do -- do 18 that part of the park, they got to be on -- on a leash. If 19 they're not on a leash, you need to pick them up, take them 20 to the shelter. Bottom line, just pick them up. The dog 21 that chased your truck, you should have loaded him up, taken 22 him to the shop. Let them come get him. If he was under 23 their control, he wouldn't be following your truck. Open the 24 tailgate, jump him in there. You know, I mean, that's the 25 way you solve that problem. You know, but you've got to 7-27-09 46 1 start picking up some of those dogs that are running loose 2 and not under anybody's control. I think, you know, that 3 area is more used by a larger part of the public. 4 MS. WHITT: It is. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Multiple things. Fishing, 6 boating. 7 MS. WHITT: Walking. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Walking. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Picnics. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Whatever you want to do. It 11 really is the most used portion. The other end is not -- not 12 used that much right now. And what I'd like to do is for us 13 to try it. If it doesn't work, we can always get more 14 stringent. If people are not going to be responsible, then 15 we'll take the privilege away. 16 MS. WHITT: Well, then I'd be willing to try it. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's kind of where I -- 18 where I'd like to see us head. Let's try it. If the results 19 are not satisfactory, you're going to come back and tell us 20 they're not satisfactory. 21 MS. WHITT: Absolutely. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- I think we ought 23 to -- just to get people -- I'm sure they'll come back sooner 24 if it's a real problem, but give it 60 days. Come back with 25 a report on -- you know, keep records during that time, like 7-27-09 47 1 I know you do anyway. Just say, you know, this is what's 2 happened. And we'll make a -- either continue or -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We can give them one more 4 chance, is the way I look at it. 5 MS. WHITT: Now, I mean, when we drive out there, 6 we're -- we're actually being harassed. We've had people 7 yelling at us. We've had people cuss at us for simply being 8 out there patrolling. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, call the Sheriff. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We can put signage up that 11 indicates the lower section, or the -- what I call the lower 12 section, all of that adjacent to the boat ramp, inside the 13 iron or the post fence, where we're going to put picnic 14 tables and things of that nature, that section, we'll put 15 signage up that indicates that dogs off leash are not welcome 16 there, not -- cannot be in that section of the park. 17 Anything off leash has to be on the eastern side of the park. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you should -- on that 19 sign, I agree with you; we need to have it. We should cite 20 what the penalty is. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We can do that. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A misdemeanor, Class C? 23 MR. EMERSON: Class C. 24 MS. WHITT: Class C. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Class C misdemeanor. 7-27-09 48 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Post a fine. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Post a fine, and hopefully it 3 will work. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If we do that, Animal 5 Control then knows that they can pick up any dogs running 6 loose in the lower section of the park. Strays, owned by, 7 whatever. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Doesn't make any difference. 9 Pick them up. 10 MS. WHITT: So, on leash in the lower section, off 11 leash in the upper section. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: East side, the east bridge. 13 MS. WHITT: When will that be open? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When will it be effective? 15 If the Court approves it, it will be effective immediately. 16 MS. WHITT: Right, but when would that be open? 17 When would the gates be -- 18 MR. BOLLIER: It's open. 19 MS. WHITT: We were out there last week, and the 20 gate -- 21 MR. BOLLIER: No. 22 MS. WHITT: -- gate was locked. 23 AUDIENCE: The gate is locked. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which gate? 25 MS. WHITT: When you go across the bridge. 7-27-09 49 1 AUDIENCE: Yes. 2 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, ma'am. That won't never be 3 open. 4 MS. WHITT: You have to go -- you have to go 5 through -- 6 MR. BOLLIER: Go across the bridge. You go across 7 the bridge, and that's going -- that's a designated parking 8 spot right there where the cable is, makes a little "L" shape 9 there. That's a designated parking spot. 10 MS. WHITT: Okay. 11 MR. BOLLIER: There is a walk-through gate there 12 that they can walk through. 13 MS. WHITT: Okay. 14 MR. BOLLIER: And go in there. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: From your standpoint, you need 16 to have a key so you can go through there. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Back gate. 18 MR. BOLLIER: There's a combination. I'll give you 19 that. 20 MS. WHITT: I'll get that from him. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would move approval of a 22 policy for Flat Rock Lake Park that requires animals in what 23 we define as the lower section to be on leash at all times, 24 and the upper section east of the -- of Third Creek, animals 25 can be off leash in that area of the park only. 7-27-09 50 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 3 indicated. Commissioner, does your motion include off leash, 4 but still complying with the second part of our Animal 5 Control order, "supervised by and under the direct control of 6 the owner"? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, it does. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any question or discussion on 9 the motion? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner Letz brought up 13 a time frame to make sure the thing's going to work. Can you 14 tell me what that is? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think Commissioner Letz 16 mentioned something like 30 or 60 days. I think 60 days is a 17 reasonable time to evaluate it, and at the end of 60 days, 18 Animal Control can come back and tell us their findings. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You'll do that? 20 MS. WHITT: Yes, sir, I'll do that. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: One other question. The new 22 property or the upper property, whatever it is you're talking 23 about, the new one on the far end, when you get down to -- 24 all the way to the other end of the property, there's a fence 25 line there, and with a -- part of it, a large hole. You can 7-27-09 51 1 drive a truck through there. What happens -- who's 2 responsible if Mr. Jones' dog goes into that other property 3 and kills somebody's sheep? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good question. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The owner. 6 MS. WHITT: The owner, obviously. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Owner of the animal, I 8 guess. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there any -- any county 10 liability in that? I'm still going to vote no. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's no different to me than -- 12 I don't know; you're going to still vote no. There's no 13 fence at all in Flat Rock where the dogs are now. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I've been furnished with public 15 participation forms from a number of individuals. I know 16 this issue has been discussed at some length. What I would 17 ask is that -- that if your comments are merely repetitive of 18 another speaker's comments, that you try not to be 19 repetitive, but if you have anything additional to add, 20 certainly, you're free to do that. Initially, I would ask 21 that -- I received an e-mail from a Maggie Tatum asking me to 22 read a communication which she sent to me relative to this 23 issue. I have, in fact, read that communication, and then 24 she further requested that -- that her communication be 25 placed with the County Clerk for placement among the record 7-27-09 52 1 of these proceedings, and I will do that. But at this time, 2 Laura -- 3 MS. ULVESTAD: Ulvestad. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: -- Ulvestad. 5 MS. ULVESTAD: Sorry about that. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: If you -- if you wish, you can come 7 forward and tell us what's on your mind. 8 MS. ULVESTAD: I'll just stand up; I won't be long. 9 I'm a dog walker. I disagree with Ms. Whitt. The vast 10 majority of us are responsible. We do pick up our dogs' 11 poop. I have seen one person argue with an Animal Control 12 officer, and he gave them a hard time, but that individual is 13 quite elderly, and I believe he suffers from dementia. And 14 that's the only time I've ever witnessed such a thing. 15 Anyway, I like the compromises you've suggested, giving us a 16 new area, or possibly two hours a day in the morning. So, 17 I -- I'd really appreciate if there could be some compromise 18 on this. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. Erdmuthe Jackman. 20 I apologize if I butchered your name, ma'am. 21 MS. JACKMAN: That's all right. Nobody can 22 pronounce that word over here. They call me Liz usually. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: They call you what? 24 MS. JACKMAN: Liz. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Liz, okay. 7-27-09 53 1 MS. JACKMAN: My second name is Elizabeth, so 2 usually it's Liz. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, good enough. 4 MS. JACKMAN: I disagree with this lady, too. I 5 haven't gone that long, but my neighbor called -- and we live 6 in the county -- a while back to have a dog picked up that 7 was stray in our area, but nobody showed up. Now, what am I 8 supposed to think out there? All of a sudden, our dogs are 9 terrible? I haven't seen a fight, not that there may not 10 have been one. I haven't seen one bite, and we know we had a 11 bite. I just don't quite understand. Do they want to have 12 less to do? And if the Animal Control man would have a dog 13 in his cage on the truck and that dog be barking, oh, yes, 14 other dogs will run after and try to save it. That's 15 natural, but that's not that you can't call the dog back. 16 And last time I talked more about my dog. Well, she is a 17 German shorthair. She is trained for hunting. We had her up 18 in Kansas. Yes, she's old; she can't do that much, and I'm 19 -- I don't want to talk about her. 20 Most other dogs there stay with their owners. If 21 they're ornery, I have seen many owners take them on a leash 22 as a punishment. Most people have leashes along. No. I'm a 23 supporter of the 4-H. Would you close it down because you 24 have some accidents there? No. Unthinkable. But you want 25 to close down a dog park. People jog there, and I ask them 7-27-09 54 1 all the -- since this came up, if the dogs bother them. One 2 gentleman was sitting there and eating, and the -- my dogs 3 are in and out there. I said, "Do they bother you?" "No, 4 I'm just eating." I called them off. It went fine. And so 5 most people will do. I wish sometimes one of you could go 6 out there and watch it in the morning. The dogs interact. 7 This morning -- my neighbor is gone, and I babysit her dog; I 8 took it out on a leash. All the other dogs came around. Not 9 one growled, just sniff, sniff, sniff. What's wrong with 10 that? And I don't know what this lady has against dogs. 11 Maybe she should be more involved with dogs. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: She's pretty involved with them. 13 MS. WHITT: I'm pretty involved. 14 MS. JACKMAN: No, with them halfway decent. What 15 she gets is the strays, the ones that are not cared for, and 16 they could be dangerous, I admit. But I can't see just -- 17 and if we can't get the upper part, but I don't like to -- 18 for that lady to come up and gripe about us all the time, 19 when I have gone down there and gone down there and have 20 enjoyed just watching the dogs interact. And I have gone in 21 the city park. There the employees come and call my dog and 22 pet her, because they know her. What a difference between 23 state -- or county employees and the employees of the city. 24 Why can't we get along? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We try. All due respect to 7-27-09 55 1 your -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All due respect to your 4 point of view, part of the problem is the perception that 5 Flat Rock Lake Park is a dog park. It is not a dog park. 6 MS. JACKMAN: You shouldn't accept it as that. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is a public park. 8 MS. JACKMAN: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And we're going to make 10 certain, or do our level best to make certain that all 11 segments of the public have the ability to and the right to 12 enjoy it. That's where we are. 13 MS. JACKMAN: May I say something? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, absolutely, you may. 15 MS. JACKMAN: It wouldn't be very nice. It 16 really -- but since you say to enjoy for everybody, we have 17 cleaned up and, well, picked up some things that indicates 18 that that park may be a lover's lane, too. (Laughter.) 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it happened with Adam 20 and Eve. I guess it still happens. 21 MS. JACKMAN: That's right. But nobody complains 22 about that. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Jackman. 24 MS. JACKMAN: I mean, it's just -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Roussel? 7-27-09 56 1 MS. JACKMAN: -- I don't -- 2 MS. ROUSSEL: I pass. 3 MS. JACKMAN: -- like to be picked out as the 4 single worst person there. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're not. You're a nice 6 lady. Thank you. 7 MS. JACKMAN: Thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Robert Palmer? 9 MR. PALMER: Thank you. My name's Robert Palmer. 10 I live at 410 Josephine. Also a dog person. I have some -- 11 a few more questions about the area that y'all have chosen 12 for us to have off leash. When will you indicate at the park 13 that that area is to be used for that? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As soon as we can get the 15 signs up. 16 MR. PALMER: Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: If -- if the point of your question 18 -- when will we indicate that that is to be exclusively for 19 dogs off leash? 20 (Mr. Palmer nodded.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: If I got anything to say about it, 22 it will never be indicated that it is exclusively for dogs 23 off leash. 24 MR. PALMER: No, but that it's -- no, only that 25 that's the area that we can take our dogs off leash. Not 7-27-09 57 1 that it's exclusive, but -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Designated area. 3 MR. PALMER: -- designated area. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not exclusive area. 5 MR. PALMER: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Designated. As soon as we 7 can get the signs up. If the Court approves it, it will be 8 effective today, and we'll work on the signs immediately and 9 get them up as quickly as possible. 10 MR. PALMER: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But I bet you spread the 12 word. 13 MR. PALMER: As much as possible. One -- one other 14 thing I see as a challenge is that there are a lot of 15 fishermen and people come in from out of town and bring their 16 dogs, and they're going to be going into the area that's 17 going to be designated off -- that no dogs be permitted off 18 leash in that area, so you may have trouble dealing with 19 those -- with the tourists who come with dogs, and -- and 20 other people who just come in there to enjoy the park and 21 also bring their dogs. So -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That may happen, but that's 23 not a reason not to do what we're proposing. 24 MR. PALMER: Right. So -- but I'm just saying, 25 that would be a good heads-up. But one of the things I 7-27-09 58 1 wanted to just bring up was that -- that the -- that was in 2 the newspaper; that was actually a response to y'all's 3 decision last week to vote down that motion. You know, we 4 have the toasts and roasts section of the newspaper, and 5 y'all were in the -- that section last Friday -- not last 6 Friday, but Friday before that. And there was a toast to the 7 Kerr County Commissioners for keeping the leash-free option 8 at Flat Rock Lake Park. Our country needs -- our county 9 needs a dog park. So, you were appreciated, you know, by the 10 newspaper for keeping our park, or part of our park now, 11 leash-free. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess that means we'll be 13 roasted this week, but we've done that before, too. 14 MR. PALMER: Well, only on -- only a half roast. 15 Anyway, thank you. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Anyone else wishing to 17 be heard on this particular item? Give us your name and 18 address, please, sir. 19 MR. KALBFLEISCH: Yes. My name is Bill Kalbfleisch 20 and I live at 505 Loma Vuelta. And I didn't know how famous 21 I was, because I'm the person, I think, that the lady was 22 talking about that had dementia. But that's okay. I'm 23 elderly; I'm 80 years old. And also over here, this lady 24 with the park service, I was the one that she referred to 25 that had the discussion. And I have a young lab, and she's 7-27-09 59 1 being trained. I take her to all the hospitals, and we meet 2 with the various people, the veterans and so forth. And my 3 dog is under control with a whistle. I've trained her to 4 come to me when she hears a certain whistle. I toot two 5 times and she comes, and so that's the story there. And I 6 wanted to say, I think that you've done a wonderful job, and 7 I think it's wonderful that you're having a place we can walk 8 our dogs. I think you did an excellent job in the compromise 9 that you came up with. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Anyone else wishing 12 to be heard? Mr. Dreiss, any comment upon the friendliness 13 of city employees towards dumb animals? I wanted to give you 14 the opportunity. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, can I make a quick -- 16 one comment? Before we vote, hopefully. You know, I think 17 it is interesting that -- I think this Commissioners Court 18 has done absolutely everything we can to allow a spot in the 19 county for the public to have -- let dogs be off leash. I've 20 certainly been a strong supporter of that, and I -- I always 21 find it interesting that we get criticized for not being nice 22 or as friendly as the City, whereas the City doesn't allow 23 anyone to be -- dogs off leash anywhere. So, I mean, I think 24 that, you know, it should be noted that we certainly have 25 tried hard here. And if we're trying to enforce the law, 7-27-09 60 1 well, so be it. I mean, people need to follow the law, and 2 "under control" means under control. And I support Animal 3 Control's enforcing that. And I -- you know, the public 4 needs to understand that. And I think that, you know, if -- 5 if this doesn't work, then I hope the public goes both to the 6 City and the County and try to get a dog park, because this 7 is pretty much the last chance. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And maybe the newspaper will fund 9 it. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe they'll fund it. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Animal Control, they've got a 12 difficult job to do, and they're dealing with something 13 that's emotional, you know. Either you love animals or you 14 don't. You're either on one side of the issue or the other. 15 It's not like many other issues, that there's just a big, 16 wide spectrum down the middle or whatever. So -- so, what 17 they deal with are people that feel very, very strongly about 18 the issue that -- that is under discussion, so they got a 19 tough job to do, and I think they need to be given some 20 consideration in that respect. So, any other -- any other 21 question or discussions on the pending motion? Yes, ma'am? 22 Come on up. Tell us your name and address, and tell us 23 what's on your mind, please. 24 MS. EGLOFF: My name is Sherry Egloff; I live at 25 2042 Summit Crest. I'm a dog walker, and I've been walking 7-27-09 61 1 my dog down there. He's a dachshund, and he has degrees in 2 obedience, agility, earth dog. He's a very well-trained dog. 3 Anyway, and I -- I've been walking down there for the past, 4 I'd say, five winters, and two full years, actually, and my 5 observation is that I would say 95 percent of all the dogs 6 down there are well-behaved, under control. There's a few 7 that probably aren't as perfect as could be, but I could say 8 that about the people in this room. I could say that about 9 any group. I would much prefer that your Animal Control 10 person here catch the dog that is -- you know, if she's a 11 dogcatcher, catch the dogs that are not obeying the law or 12 whatever it is we're doing here. But, anyway, and leave the 13 rest of us alone. I think that it's a valuable thing to all 14 of us. We walk and talk. We interact as human beings, and 15 the dogs, it's good for them too. I think it's very 16 important for dogs to learn to socialize. That eliminates a 17 lot of animosity in dogs, to have this social interaction, 18 and I have observed it to be an absolutely wonderful thing, 19 and would I feel very bad if you didn't allow us to continue. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. Anyone else? 21 Anything further on the motion from any of you gentlemen? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll just make a quick 23 comment. I'm going to vote against it, because I feel like 24 the -- that the overall best way to go is the leash law. 25 That meets the needs of most taxpayers. It meets the needs 7-27-09 62 1 of our employees that deal with this stuff daily, day in and 2 day out. And there's nothing wrong with having animals on 3 the leash. The compromise is that, in my opinion, that we 4 are giving one segment of society one of the prettiest pieces 5 of property in Texas. And -- although I want to argue with 6 Janie a little bit about the dog chasing trucks. That's what 7 dogs do; they chase trucks and cats, and I'm in favor of 8 both. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Squirrels. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, and squirrels. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: And ducks. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ducks. Golly, it just goes 13 on and on and on. But I just -- I just think the answer and 14 the real compromise, and meet everybody's needs, is an 15 on-leash -- on-leash issue. That's all. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other member of the Court have 17 anything? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 18 your right hand. 19 (Commissioners Williams, Letz, and Oehler voted in favor of the motion.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed? 21 (Commissioner Baldwin voted against the motion.) 22 23 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We've got a 24 10:05 item that we have run over. Let me quickly get to 25 that. I will -- I will recess the Commissioners Court 7-27-09 63 1 meeting, and I will -- I will convene a public hearing with 2 respect to vacating lot lines on Lots 216 through 222 in 3 Center Point Estates, Unit II. 4 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:20 a.m., and a public hearing was held in 5 open court, as follows:) 6 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the public 8 that wishes to be heard with respect to vacating lots lines 9 on Lots 216 through 222 in Center Point Estates, Unit II? 10 You wish to be heard, ma'am? 11 MS. NICHOLS: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Come forward, please. Tell us 13 what's on your mind about that particular agenda item on 14 public hearing, Item 13. 15 MS. NICHOLS: Well, I'm here on the whole issue 16 there; I think there's four on the agenda. My name is Debra 17 Nichols, and I am here representing the Center Point Estates 18 Homeowners Association. We're not sure how this come about 19 and why it's in court today, because Mr. Selig, to our 20 knowledge, should have came to the association. We would 21 have been glad to help him on this issue. The whole point 22 is, we are a platted, restricted subdivision, and we have a 23 homeowners association, and we deal with any changes as a 24 group. And it is the property owners' -- to their best 25 interest to be involved in any changes made to our rules and 7-27-09 64 1 regulations. And to take that away from the association kind 2 of undermines it, because that means that anybody could walk 3 in any court and make a change to our rules and regulations 4 without that -- without us, and I don't think that's right. 5 As a property owner, as a board member, whichever, it does -- 6 it takes away our rules and regulations. You might as well 7 throw them out the window, because they're not any good 8 without us standing behind them. And the truth is, if he 9 would have brought this to us, in our rules and regulations, 10 it does say that for changes to be made, you have to have a 11 certain percentage of the property owners' signatures to say 12 we can go forward, we can make the change legally. But 13 Mr. Selig did not come to the association. He knows that. 14 He has our phone numbers, e-mail address. He actually spoke 15 to the president of the board on the subject, but when he 16 responded back to him, nothing was ever brought -- you know, 17 he never did come back to us and say, "Well, I would like to 18 go forward with this." The next thing we know, we're here in 19 court. We just, you know, found this out this weekend. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know, I agree with you 21 that -- that that is the best route to go. Strength in 22 numbers and all of those kinds of things. And y'all have a 23 homeowners association where things are worked out. However, 24 the guy has the right to go basically do what he wants to do. 25 If he wants to come in here and complain to us, that's -- 7-27-09 65 1 MS. NICHOLS: But he never made an attempt for the 2 association -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's still America. 4 MS. NICHOLS: Yeah. But if anybody lives in a 5 homeowners association, I'm sure there's many of them here in 6 this county, just like if -- you know, most counties do. If 7 you take that out of our hands, that means that we cannot 8 enforce any of our rules. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me make a comment. 11 MS. NICHOLS: That's our concern. It really is a 12 concern. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me make a comment about 14 it. My assumption was -- and it's a faulty assumption. 15 MS. NICHOLS: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That the property owner had 17 been in touch with the homeowners association. And I'm not 18 making any apologies for not having done it. 19 MS. NICHOLS: That's okay. It's not your -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I didn't do it 'cause I 21 thought he had done so. But will you explain to the Court 22 what your -- what your rule and regulation is as a homeowners 23 association that would preclude him from collapsing all those 24 lot lines into one lot? 25 MS. NICHOLS: Well, the whole point is that any 7-27-09 66 1 changes made to any of the lots, whether they're added, 2 subdivided, whichever it may be, has to go through the 3 property owners and get a -- at least a 75 percent vote 4 saying, yes, the change can be made. And if he would have 5 came to us, we would have tried to do that, at least let the 6 property owners know, give them an opportunity to vote on it. 7 And if it would have been 75 percent of the people said yes, 8 this would have been accomplished. But he never did. It was 9 brought -- I mean, it was brought up to our board president, 10 okay? And he says, "Well, we don't have any problem with it, 11 but we still have to go through the rules and regulations," 12 which means the voting system on that. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who is your board 14 president? 15 MS. NICHOLS: Dennis Young. Dennis Young. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 MS. NICHOLS: And he sent you an e-mail last -- we 18 just found out about this yesterday, okay? He sent you an 19 e-mail last night. I'm sure, with your schedule this 20 morning, you probably have not seen it. I do have a copy of 21 that e-mail if you would like to see that, from him. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That may be here, but I've 23 not opened it. I didn't know I had it. 24 MS. NICHOLS: I have a copy if you want it. 25 However, the whole point of it is that we have not tried to 7-27-09 67 1 not work with Mr. Selig. If he would have just said, "Okay, 2 I would like to do these items," we would have went forward 3 and sent out a letter to all the property owners and would 4 have asked for them to vote for it, because I don't have 5 anything against it. Part of my issue is also, too, I 6 realize that these lots that he owns backs up to some other 7 property that he owns, okay? My next concern is, okay, that 8 if he has this and he wants to remove these lots now from the 9 association, because now he's got them joined as one, which 10 does butt up to some additional property of his, okay? So, 11 therefore, does he want to remove these lots altogether from 12 Center Point Estates? Also, we do have yearly annual dues, 13 and he is yet to pay those this year. He was sent a bill 14 earlier this year for those dues. 15 The transaction that he -- how he acquired these 16 lots was a trade-off with another property owner out there, 17 okay? And they traded -- they had mutual property they both 18 wanted. And I don't know that he was brought aware of the 19 association. They closed through the title company, so it's 20 not my responsibility -- the title company never informed us. 21 The property owner at the time did not let us know he was 22 trading them to this other gentleman, so we had no way to 23 know. We didn't even know that these lots had been traded 24 until, I think, our yearly meeting was in March, so at that 25 point I'm trying to find who this -- who owns the land now, 7-27-09 68 1 and I had to spend a couple of weeks doing that to get ahold 2 of this gentleman. And I sent him a package with all the 3 rules and regulations, restrictions, everything, the 4 association. Also the dues request to be paid. Haven't 5 heard -- you know, haven't gotten that paid yet. So, I don't 6 know if he's just trying to take the lots completely away 7 from the association, but it is a platted, restricted area. 8 And I just don't know why he did not come to us first, 'cause 9 I do really believe that we would have worked with him and 10 tried to help him accomplish this part of it that he has 11 before you today. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have not seen the e-mail. 13 I'd be happy to read it. The only call I had about this 14 issue had to do with the proposal to abandon the stretch of 15 road that's perpendicular to these small lots. 16 MS. NICHOLS: Well, and the reason that is, is if 17 you -- I have a plat of that -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I should say road easement. 19 MS. NICHOLS: Right. See, the reason is, in the 20 newspaper, which is how we found out, the wording did not 21 exactly say which road easement, 'cause there is multiple 22 roads there. And the -- you know, to my understanding, you 23 know, by what was told to Mr. Hamming this morning was that 24 it was the one in the back. But there are other road 25 easements there, and we just wanted to make sure he is not 7-27-09 69 1 trying to close those down, because there are other property 2 owners back there. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, there's a road that 4 comes in off of Center Point Estates Drive, and it goes in 5 between Lots 230 and 231 and goes to -- to the end here, and 6 it turns to the right and turns to the left. So, I 7 understand it's a road, the road coming in, and the proposal 8 is to abandon the easement for that strip of road that would 9 be perpendicular to all these small lots. 10 MS. NICHOLS: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the only call I've 12 had about it. 13 MS. NICHOLS: Right. But -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But that's neither here nor 15 there. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a quick question to Rex, 17 and it goes back to an issue of how we do this. If this were 18 done as a revision, every property owner in that subdivision 19 would have been -- received a written notice, but because 20 it's vacating, we don't have to do that, because we're -- I 21 mean, I have a hard time separating in my mind the difference 22 between vacating a lot, a subdivision or part of a 23 subdivision, and revising it. To me, you can't vacate 24 without revising it. And I don't understand why you can 25 vacate a subdivision and then not have to send notice to the 7-27-09 70 1 people in the subdivision. 2 MS. NICHOLS: Right. I think that's the whole 3 point. We have to notify, in my opinion and what we read in 4 our rules and regulations, that we must notify other property 5 owners. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the other issue is, what 7 you're talking about is a civil issue that we have no -- 8 MS. NICHOLS: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- say on. We deal with state 10 law and statutes related to subdivision and platting, and 11 your issue is a civil issue, as all homeowner association 12 disputes are, and we have no authority over that one way or 13 the other. If there -- if that gets so contentious, the 14 avenue is to go to district court. 15 MS. NICHOLS: I think my whole point, really, is 16 that -- one, that he's just leaving the board out. We could 17 have, as a -- I think he could have made that same 18 accomplishment by coming to us. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 MS. NICHOLS: Without undermining our rules and 21 regulations. And I really think that if we allow this to 22 happen in court, that the next person's going to want to make 23 all these other changes too and continue on, and how are we 24 going to stop anybody from making changes to any of our rules 25 and regulations if we do not go through it, what we consider, 7-27-09 71 1 properly? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just saying we don't have 3 authority over that issue. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's hear what the County 5 Attorney has to say about notification. 6 MR. EMERSON: The only notice that's required by 7 statute in the order is publication in the paper. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which did happen. 9 MR. EMERSON: That's my understanding. 10 MS. NICHOLS: Unfortunately, the paper came on 11 Sunday to our area, 'cause the bridge was closed; they 12 decided not to deliver till Sunday. That's when we found 13 out, was yesterday. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: This is vacating lot lines. We're 15 not amending a plat. 16 MR. EMERSON: Cancellation of a subdivision, which 17 is what this is, is under its own little subsection. 18 MS. NICHOLS: Would it not be, though, -- 19 MR. EMERSON: Only notice that's in there. 20 MS. NICHOLS: -- cancellation of a plat? Because 21 he's wanting to change the plat. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- you know, it's been a 23 -- I've never understood the difference, how you can do one 24 without the other. But that doesn't -- state law frequently 25 leaves me at a loss. Okay. 7-27-09 72 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, what you're saying is 2 that notification to adjoining property owners or an 3 association is not a requirement of the law; is that what 4 you're saying? 5 MR. EMERSON: Correct. And may or may not be 6 correct. It's my understanding that the difference between 7 the two, Commissioner, is that revision is revising within an 8 existing subdivision. You're not canceling out of any -- if 9 you're canceling, you're completely taking it out of the 10 subdivision. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: My understanding of what he's 12 requesting is just to erase out the lot lines, but not to 13 take it out of the subdivision. 14 MR. EMERSON: My understanding is it was 15 communicated to me by Mr. Voelkel that it's a cancellation of 16 that part of the subdivision. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe we should have 18 Mr. Voelkel come up to the podium and tell us exactly what is 19 being proposed by the -- by the property owner. 20 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: The agenda item deals with vacating 22 lot lines. That's all it says. 23 MR. VOELKEL: Yes. This -- and I don't know this 24 woman, or anybody on the -- I've never contacted or been 25 contacted by any of the Center Point Estates people. I -- my 7-27-09 73 1 client is Pete Selig. He owns the land to the west. And -- 2 and I've gone over this with several of y'all. The -- the 3 lots themselves are really -- today's standards, real 4 substandard lots. There's six of them, I think, and they're, 5 like, .2 to .3 acres. They're -- in our standards today, 6 they're really not even buildable lots. But what Mr. Selig 7 did is he acquired those lots with an adjoining neighbor. 8 They kind of did some swaps like she was talking about. No 9 reason for anyone to be notified. I don't know why she's 10 upset that they went -- 11 MS. NICHOLS: We should be notified, because as a 12 homeowners association, we need to know who owns the 13 property, who is responsible for the property and the dues 14 that go with it. 15 MR. VOELKEL: Which we disagree. I don't think 16 there's any laws that states that everyone who buys a piece 17 of property has to notify anyone other than the public 18 records, so I don't think Pete Selig has done anything wrong 19 by acquiring these lots. You know, and we've been following 20 the state law. I even met with Rex. We've -- I looked at 21 state law. It's totally -- I do this; this is my business. 22 I do developments. I do revisions of plats, vacation. I 23 mean, we -- we've been following the state law verbatim. I 24 don't know, legally -- if this happens, if those six lots go 25 back to vacant land like what we're wanting to do, I don't 7-27-09 74 1 think it necessarily takes him out of that subdivision -- 2 homeowners association. I think he probably still is 3 required to pay dues and things like that. If he hasn't, 4 that's -- I mean, that's not my issue. I don't think that's 5 y'all's issue. I think that's their issue with him. But the 6 action that we're asking -- and we're doing, by the way, what 7 the state law requires us to do -- is to vacate those six 8 lots into just vacant land, and the next item would have been 9 to abandon that stretch of road that -- there is no road. 10 There's an easement that was granted there when the plat was 11 done, but there never has been a road built. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: The focus of your request, though, 13 is not just to erase some lot lines, but to vacate and 14 eliminate this property that's in question out of the 15 subdivision, take it out of the subdivision. 16 MR. VOELKEL: I don't know exactly if that's true. 17 We're talking about it going back to vacant land. If it is 18 legally bound by their document for him to pay dues and 19 whatnot, that may still be in effect. I don't know if that's 20 something Rex can give y'all an idea on. We're talking -- 21 we're not -- if we'd have been taking the lot lines out, 22 creating one lot, that would have been a revision of plat 23 like Jon's talking about. That's not what we're doing. 24 We're not revising -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're eliminating this 7-27-09 75 1 property out of the subdivision. 2 MR. VOELKEL: Correct, as far as being platted 3 property. Whether or not it's still bound to pay their dues 4 and things like that, I don't know that answer. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think the public 6 hearing's posted properly. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I just see it as eliminating lot 8 lines, and I don't think that gives fair notice about the 9 full import of -- of what's going to occur here, that the 10 property would be, quote, removed from the subdivision. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, let me offer a 12 suggestion. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: If that can even be done with this 14 kind of notice, or whether or not it requires some additional 15 notice, I -- 16 MR. VOELKEL: Well, that's something -- and y'all 17 may want to ask Rex. I think -- and Rex and I met 18 specifically on this item, and we looked at the law that 19 addresses this specific item, and to my knowledge -- and that 20 may be something Rex can shed some light on, too -- I think 21 we've done everything that -- by that law to do what he's 22 asking to have done. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me offer a suggestion 24 here, Judge, if I may. Let's complete the public hearing; 25 anybody else that wishes to speak on it may do so, but not 7-27-09 76 1 take any action on this today, and let me meet with all of 2 the principals in Center Point and see if we can get all 3 these questions resolved before any action is required of the 4 Court. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: And then in the meantime, if there 6 are any legal issues, those can be sorted out, and if there 7 are posting or agenda issues that have to come back, that can 8 be resolved. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly, yes, sir. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Is there any other member of 11 the public that wishes to be heard with respect to this 12 particular matter, the vacating lot lines on Lots 216 through 13 222? Yes, sir. If you'll step forward, give us your name 14 and address? 15 MR. GALLAND: My name is Steve Galland. I'm in the 16 Center Point Estates, and have been for 20 years. I think 17 one of the things we're missing here is the importance of 18 homeowners associations. One of the things is, I refinanced 19 my home recently, and was unable to refinance it without 20 filling out a form that insured that I had paid my dues. So, 21 one of the things that I think you need to consider is how 22 important homeowners associations are and what they can do. 23 And one of the problems we had here was, yes, we just found 24 out about this yesterday. Nobody in the homeowners was aware 25 of it until we were able to read the paper. If it wasn't for 7-27-09 77 1 the paper, we probably wouldn't have even been here. And I 2 think that it's important that when you're looking at various 3 areas, that, in fact, are within a homeowners association, 4 that you need to insure that -- you know, that's why, 20 5 years ago, I bought my property, was because of the 6 homeowners, or I wouldn't have bought it at all. So, I think 7 one of the things that you need to be concerned about is the 8 importance of homeowners associations and what they, in fact, 9 can do to the community. That's all I have. Thank you. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Anyone else? Yes, 11 ma'am. If you'll come forward and give us your name and 12 address, tell us your thoughts on this matter. 13 MS. OSBORN: My name is Carolyn Osborn, and I live 14 in Center Point Estates. My husband and I are semi-retired 15 teachers, and we bought property six years ago. It was very 16 important to us to buy in a subdivision that had restrictions 17 to protect our investment and our way of life and what we 18 wanted there. We bought the property exactly across the 19 creek from the stated property, and we very carefully 20 reviewed all of the restrictions and the plats that were over 21 there that were intended for single family homes, with the 22 expectation that if anything happened over there, it was 23 going to be a single family home, and not whatever can happen 24 from here. My thought is that if -- you know, when we bought 25 our house, we had to go through the homeowners association. 7-27-09 78 1 That was part of the deal of our -- our property transaction. 2 How in the world this one happened without it, I have no 3 idea. 4 It seems to me that if a homeowners association 5 means so little, that anyone can go and get that annulled 6 over anything, then anyone in this county who lives in a 7 restricted subdivision is in danger, that someone can decide, 8 "I don't want to be in the homeowners association any more, 9 and I'll put up my used car lot or whatever here," because it 10 means nothing. We can just go cancel, pull out of the 11 homeowners association. It means nothing. So, I think this 12 has not just meaning for Center Point Estates, but has 13 meaning for anyone in this whole county. You will set a 14 precedent that anyone can use from this day forward. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ma'am, may I say something? 16 There's some confusion here about what court -- see, I think 17 you're in the wrong court to be -- to deal with the 18 homeowners association issues. You need to be in the J.P. 19 court for that. 20 AUDIENCE: District court. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the way I understand 22 the law. We deal with state law. J.P. court deals with 23 homeowners associations. 24 MS. OSBORN: So -- I thought that's what we were 25 talking about today, is this person's right to withdraw -- 7-27-09 79 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're talking about the man 2 has a right under state law to either subdivide his property, 3 if it's in accordance with whatever the subdivision rules and 4 regulations are, or -- or is perhaps not in violation of 5 homeowners restrictions. But we're not dealing with zoning 6 issues, and you got off on that, which would preclude a 7 junkyard, for example. We don't have zoning authority. 8 We've never had it, and we're not seeking it. The State 9 Legislature is not inclined to give it to us. So, you know, 10 we have to separate some of the issues. The Commissioner's 11 comment about homeowners association authority, that is 12 enforceable in a J.P. court, and I assume if you don't like 13 the verdict in the J.P. court, you can work upward. But here 14 we deal with only what the law allows us to deal with with 15 respect to subdivision rights and regulations and things of 16 that nature. 17 MS. OSBORN: So, you can go -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The fact that you notify 19 the homeowners association -- I regret that they didn't do 20 that, because it's caused some anxiety among all the rest of 21 you -- 22 MS. OSBORN: Absolutely. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- folks. But that's -- 24 the fact that he didn't do that is not a requirement that we 25 can enforce. 7-27-09 80 1 MS. OSBORN: I see. Thank you. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, I have a quick 4 comment to Rex. This is why I don't understand the 5 difference between revision and vacating, because by revising 6 this -- vacating the plat, we are affecting this lady's 7 property, potentially. And that's the intent of revision of 8 plat, of giving notice to the subdivision, and for us to 9 listen to that and make a decision. And maybe it's just -- 10 state law allows for that, but I don't -- under that 11 interpretation, it seems to me that whenever somebody wants 12 to revise a plat, all they need to do is vacate it, and I 13 don't think that's the intent of state law. I think if they 14 don't like it, they want to do something with their lots, 15 they just vacate it out of the subdivision, and then no one 16 has any control over it, and I think that's a problem with 17 state law. I don't think that's the intent. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good point. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the other issue that we're 20 hearing is that an individual buys property within a 21 subdivision where there are existing restrictions, buys with 22 knowledge of those restrictions, and then, in order to avoid 23 having to be in compliance with those restrictions, takes his 24 property out of the subdivision. Therefore, it's no longer 25 subject to the restrictions. I think he's inviting some 7-27-09 81 1 significant litigation by doing that. But -- but it seems 2 like a roadmap that -- at least trying to get there. But the 3 lady has a very good point, that if -- if there's a very 4 simplistic process, that there can be a very easy and 5 complete end run that goes around the homeowners association, 6 and we have no authority. We have no authority to -- to 7 enforce homeowners association rules, regulations, 8 restrictions, or otherwise. Those are done by private 9 individuals, whoever has a justiciable interest in the 10 proceedings. 11 Also, I don't think homeowners rules, regulations, 12 and so forth can override or control what state law allows 13 this Court to do with respect to subdivisions, but I am very, 14 very mindful of what the potential impact can be if someone 15 can approach it in this manner and make this sort of an end 16 run and, for example, put a noxious commercial activity over 17 on property that's been moved out of a residential 18 subdivision with some -- with restrictions that are 19 protecting some other property owners. So, I -- it's a big 20 concern. And like Commissioner Letz, I'm very concerned 21 that -- that we're not reworking a plat, because then, in 22 effect, we are changing the plat of that particular 23 subdivision if we remove property out of it. And while there 24 may not be an absolute drop-dead requirement that we follow 25 all these procedures, I don't think we're restricted from not 7-27-09 82 1 doing something stronger up here on this Court to protect 2 existing property owners. That's my two bits. Yes, sir? If 3 you would, give us your name and address. 4 MR. HAMMOND: Ben Hammond, 214 Center Point Drive. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 6 MR. HAMMOND: I'm going to amplify a little bit 7 what Carolyn said and what you said, Judge. Do all of y'all 8 have a photocopy of the lots in question? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We have it. 10 MR. HAMMOND: Okay. They lie along the west 11 extremity of Center Point Estates in this particular unit on 12 the west side of Elm Creek. As you can see, there are other 13 landowners that are on the east side of Elm Creek that butt 14 up to it, and Carolyn Osborn and her husband are one of them. 15 I just wanted to make a point that if this were removed from 16 -- from Center Point Estates and the protection that Center 17 Point Estates Homeowners Association provides everyone, that 18 it's going to make these lots less valuable and vulnerable to 19 whatever goes over there, which would be out of anybody's 20 say-so. I would -- I would hope that the Court could find a 21 way to at least delay this to a later date so that we can 22 be -- it can be more fully discussed and researched. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's my suggestion to the 24 Court, that we delay any action on it. 25 MR. HAMMOND: I appreciate it, Commissioner. 7-27-09 83 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The public hearing. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Anyone else wishing to be heard on 4 the public hearing aspect of that issue? Seeing no one else 5 seeking to be heard, I will close the public hearing of 6 vacating lot lines on Lots 216 through 222 in Center Point 7 Estates, Unit II. 8 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:46 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court meeting was 9 reopened.) 10 - - - - - - - - - - 11 JUDGE TINLEY: And let's quickly try and take care 12 of the 10:10 item; open a public hearing abandoning a road 13 easement in Center Point Estates, as shown in Volume 3, Page 14 103 of the Kerr County Plat Records. 15 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:46 a.m., and a public hearing was held in 16 open court, as follows:) 17 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm doing this because the matter's 19 already been advertised, and I assume that we're dealing with 20 the same issues. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Same issue yes. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: But if -- if anyone wishes to be 23 heard with respect to abandoning of the road easement in 24 Center Point Estates as shown in Volume 3, Page 103 of the 25 Kerr County Plat Records, that being the road easement which 7-27-09 84 1 is shown adjacent to Lot 216 through Lot -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 231 -- 221. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: -- 221, please step forward and tell 4 us what's on your mind. I assume those that who spoke 5 against the general vacating of lot lines have the same 6 position on this matter? 7 MS. NICHOLS: Same position. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Is anybody in disagreement with 9 that? Okay. We've got that out of the way. Anyone else 10 wishing to be heard on the vacating of the road easement? If 11 not, I will close that public hearing, and I will reconvene 12 the Commissioners Court meeting. 13 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:47 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court meeting was 14 reopened.) 15 - - - - - - - - - - 16 JUDGE TINLEY: And we've run over a little bit, so 17 we're going to be in recess for about 15 minutes. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Before we do, Judge -- 19 before we do, I'm going to pull Item 1.14 and 1.16 from 20 today's agenda. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I assumed that was going to happen. 22 We'll be in recess for about 15 minutes. Thank you. 23 (Recess taken from 10:47 a.m. to 11:05 a.m.) 24 - - - - - - - - - - 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to order, if 7-27-09 85 1 we might, and see if we can move more quickly through our 2 agenda. We'll go with Item 6; consider, discuss, take 3 appropriate action to authorize participation by Road and 4 Bridge with the City of Kerrville on a sealcoating project 5 for Meadow View Lane. This is a matter that we've been 6 working on a pilot program for a couple of years now, and 7 Mr. Odom asked that it be brought before the Court. 8 Essentially, what this would involve is that the Road and 9 Bridge people, in cooperation with the city folks, Road and 10 Bridge would -- would utilize their equipment and personnel 11 to do the sealcoat overlay after all the remainder work is 12 done by the city of Kerrville personnel on any base repair 13 failures, whatnot, and traffic control, all those other 14 components. This is part of that pilot program that we're 15 getting into to try and get some cooperative efforts going on 16 with the City. All of the hard costs, emulsion oil, trap 17 rock and so forth, would be -- would be paid for and provided 18 by the City. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This boils down to a labor 20 and equipment type -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Essentially, yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 23 MR. ODOM: May I also make a comment that this 24 agenda item shows Meadow View Lane. It is actually -- the 25 road is Olympia, Alamo, and San Jacinto, and that is between 7-27-09 86 1 Tom Daniels and the Singing Winds Park location. It was -- 2 actually, I didn't have the names of the roads when the City 3 told me, so I -- it was supposed to be the Meadow View area, 4 which is essentially in that area. So -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: The way I've got the agenda item, 6 I'm going to have to bring it back, Leonard. I wish you'd 7 have let me know this. 8 MR. ODOM: I didn't know until Friday, till it was 9 already posted. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Would have been too late anyway. 11 We'll bring it back. We'll bring it back. If you'll make 12 sure that Jody has those streets? 13 MR. ODOM: Sure. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: And we'll just bring it back. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's such a worthwhile 16 project, you know. I mean, anything that we can do for the 17 city, I'm all for. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I knew you were. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And I hate to see us 20 wait two weeks on this thing. 21 MR. ODOM: Well, we're not going to -- I'm asking 22 -- I wanted y'all's direction to go ahead and proceed. It 23 will probably be sometime in August. I've got two projects. 24 I got Bichon that I need to finish. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And you're doing good. 7-27-09 87 1 MR. ODOM: And Del and them are doing a real good 2 job. And then I've got another -- something that just came 3 up again, Sheppard Rees. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's another good one. 5 MR. ODOM: And we're going to -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would both be in Precinct 7 1, Mr. Odom? 8 MR. ODOM: Pardon me? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He doesn't appreciate 10 Sheppard Rees, I'm sure. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's almost an emergency out 12 there. 13 MR. ODOM: It is. We've discussed that a year ago, 14 with the emulsions and all out there. But, anyway, we can 15 address that, and then -- then I'm through with the project, 16 except Wilson Road, which is an agenda item here. And once I 17 get through with our projects, I intend to move in, either 18 August or September. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: This will not -- 20 MR. ODOM: All I'm asking -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: -- won't create a problem for you, 22 'cause it's going to be later on in the summer anyway? 23 MR. ODOM: Going to be later on. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Let's move on with Item 25 7; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to amend the 7-27-09 88 1 plat for Lots 9 and 10 of Sleepy Hollow, Section 2, as shown 2 in Volume 4, Page 224, and located in Precinct 4, pursuant to 3 Section 6.07(a)(1)(6) of the Subdivision Rules and 4 Regulations. Mr. Odom? 5 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. Mr. Hannemann owns Lots 9 and 6 10 in Sleepy Hollow, Section 2, and the owner would like to 7 sell Lot 9. There is a structure that is over the line, and 8 also a patio cover. When I went into this this week and I 9 went out to look at that, I took this to be -- I construed it 10 as a revision of plat process. However, I think that that 11 discussion's gone on with Mr. Oehler and the County Attorney, 12 so I'm going to -- they're saying that I don't need this 13 revision of plat, so I will either turn to Bruce and ask him 14 for that opinion -- I wasn't there at the time. 15 MR. EMERSON: The reason it's listed this way, 16 Judge, is because what's happened, to the best of my 17 understanding, is that the two lots were originally laid 18 out -- they're owned by the same owner, so you have the same 19 owner on both sides of the property line. Given the advent 20 of GPS and the accuracy now of surveying, it was determined 21 that the original course line separating the two lots is off 22 by a little bit. They want to correct that course line, so 23 that once that course line is corrected, then the lots can be 24 sold. But right now, the description doesn't match where the 25 actual property line is. 7-27-09 89 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Two questions. Does the 2 property line go to where we've always thought it did? That 3 blue line? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. What we thought it went 5 to is not where it -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The 7 line where we thought it was goes over to -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- the property. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The property. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where the blue line is now. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right, that is the correct 13 line. That gets it away from the house. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It corrects the issue? 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then doesn't the size of 17 the lots change? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It does slightly, but not 19 enough to -- to jeopardize the integrity of the subdivision. 20 MR. HANNEMANN: Actually swaps what they were and 21 are. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 23 MR. HANNEMANN: They're staying about the same, 24 just swapping 10 and 9. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's all I need to know. 7-27-09 90 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I move approval. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 4 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 5 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 10 to Item 8; consider, discuss, take appropriate action for 11 approval on removing cattle guards on Wilson Creek Road 12 located in Precinct 3. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There you go. 15 MR. ODOM: Okay. I came back in February and I 16 passed out a letter there that we discussed this, and at this 17 point, we're -- Wilson will be coming up in our projects. 18 We'd like to complete that in this budget year, and I told 19 the Court that I would come to ask that permission to remove 20 them. I'm asking for that permission now. So, within the 21 next three weeks or so, or less, we should be out there at 22 Wilson Road doing the sealcoating. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The only question I have is, 24 the state law changes September 1st. Rex, do we have to be 25 worried about this? Does the work need to be done before 7-27-09 91 1 that, or does this really have any impact on state law, which 2 changed the notice requirements slightly? 3 MR. EMERSON: Well, number one, I haven't seen the 4 new state law. My legislative update session isn't until 5 next week, so I don't know what the new state law states, 6 whether it went into effect immediately, or you're saying it 7 goes September 1st. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: September 1st, by what the -- 9 MR. ODOM: That is -- that Senate bill did say 1st 10 of September. We discussed that before. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 12 MR. ODOM: And the Court gave me a direction, 13 basically through Rex, that we did not -- we had already 14 given that notice a long time ago, about a year ago in July. 15 And -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Under existing law. 17 MR. ODOM: That's right. Off the -- the existing 18 law. And that this new law goes into effect, and then I was 19 directed to renotify everybody that I'm going to do it again. 20 So, -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 22 MR. ODOM: -- it is up to the Court. Personally, 23 we can wait till 1st of September; I can still get it in if 24 the weather holds, and if not, I feel like we have done 25 everything that we're supposed to do. 7-27-09 92 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We've certainly given notice 2 many times. Clearly, to me, if we do it before 3 September 1st, then we don't have to worry about the new 4 state law which goes in place September 1st. But after that, 5 I just want to make sure that -- I don't want to get hung up 6 on a technicality, that we need to give a different kind of 7 notice or something. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Would it be your intention to 9 accomplish this work before September 1? 10 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 15 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 16 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carried. Let's go to 21 Item 9. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I kind of hate to see the 23 cattle guard discussion go away, though. I've had so much 24 fun. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: You can discuss that at lunch, 7-27-09 93 1 Commissioner. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There'll be -- well, there 3 will be other cattle guards, won't there? 4 MR. ODOM: Yes, there probably will be. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hopefully in Precinct 1. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, there is not. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're not talking about in 8 Precinct 2, either. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm going to ask the reporter which 10 one of those four voices she took down. 11 (The reporter indicated.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: The ones closest. Let's go to 9; 13 consider, discuss, take appropriate action to purchase a used 14 FEMA trailer, Texas Facilities Commission Federal Surplus 15 Property Program. 16 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. We had received some data 17 from Ackerman Road Government Surplus that they had these 18 trailers. If you remember, several years ago we bought a 19 FEMA trailer for Ingram yard and replaced the old building, 20 that little old shed that I had, and which is working very 21 well. This trailer can be bought -- it's brand-new, and you 22 saw the pictures -- for $3,000. There will be another cost 23 of -- additional cost that we estimate probably around $2,000 24 that I have to go all the way to the Sabine River to pick it 25 up from the federal government. They will not bring it to 7-27-09 94 1 San Antonio. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: How inconsiderate. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I agree. 4 MR. ODOM: And -- but I think this is a very good 5 deal, and we would like to do that. I have the money set 6 aside in 15-611-575 to pay for this. And what we're 7 anticipating is that sometime in the future, that we would be 8 able to acquire property for a Comfort/Center Point yard, and 9 we think that this would work very well. We would bring it 10 back to our yard, and then once that's secured, whether 11 that's -- whatever that period of time is, that we would have 12 it to put in place and have an office down there. We think 13 it is a very good buy. I don't know -- I can tell you, we 14 paid more money than that for the last one, and it's as nice, 15 if not nicer, and for $3,000, and our cost of moving it here 16 is well worth the money. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's just a shell type 19 building? 20 MR. ODOM: It isn't -- no. It is a trailer, fully 21 furnished. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We get a dining room table, 24 chairs, stove. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, with appliances, sure. 7-27-09 95 1 MR. ODOM: Just like the other one. The other 2 one's furnished too. It was absolutely nice. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would second the motion. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 5 indicated. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 6 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Item 10; 11 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to accept Mira 12 Vista Lane North in The Ranches of Sunset Ridge Subdivision 13 and release the maintenance bond, that being located in 14 Precinct 3. Mr. Odom? 15 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. In the past, we've had some 16 difficulty with the developer not getting vegetation in there 17 as required, and we have been working with him and we have 18 got that. It has been checked myself, as well as Wayne 19 Wells, and we present to the Court to go ahead and accept it 20 for maintenance. It is a good subdivision. I got some good 21 grass stands in there now, and I think it's a good 22 subdivision. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 7-27-09 96 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 2 approval. Question or discussion? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That includes -- that includes 4 releasing the bond. 5 MR. ODOM: Yes, I'm sorry. And releasing that 6 maintenance bond. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Further discussion? All in favor of 8 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Item 11; consider, 13 discuss, and take appropriate action to determine what areas 14 in the Zone A, the unstudied areas of the floodplain, should 15 be studied in Precincts 1, 2, 3, and 4. Mr. Odom? 16 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. I'll try to -- won't try to 17 make floodplain managers out of you, but in floodplain 18 there's two areas. One is an AE, is a studied area that the 19 federal government does, and another is a Zone A, which is 20 unstudied area; they haven't done any studies in it. John -- 21 I've asked John to take a look, and John has researched 22 finding some possible state funding to do some of these 23 studies in Zone A. And at this time, we ask the Court to 24 consider allowing Mr. Hewitt to pursue state funding on the 25 proposed creeks and data that we ask you to provide in your 7-27-09 97 1 areas that you may think that need to be studied. Once we 2 determine these areas, we will find out how much funding the 3 State will give us to have these studies done, and that any 4 data that you have, any recommendations -- we just gave you a 5 list of things here to mention, but we think that you know 6 your constituents. You know where some of this development 7 is going on, and we would like to consider that as part of 8 the state funding for studies. We ask for your permission to 9 do so. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Leonard, how -- by doing 11 this, how does it -- how does it benefit the taxpayers of 12 Kerr County, and in what way? 13 MR. ODOM: Firstly, it gives us better detail in 14 the unstudied areas, other than -- it's still approximation. 15 All things are approximation, but this is better data that 16 the health and safety and welfare of the people is being able 17 to come to a closer contour line, whether it's a 4-foot or a 18 2-foot or a 20-foot. Basically, these are on 20-foot 19 sections, and you're guessing. We think we can come a little 20 bit closer with this funding to have a better idea where a 21 piece of property -- or where that line falls in those 22 contours. It's safer for the people. We have a little bit 23 better data. It makes it easier for floodplain to bring in 24 the citizens and be able to discuss and show it to them. And 25 if we get the state funding, I don't know if there's a 7-27-09 98 1 matching or anything yet, but if there's state funding, I 2 would imagine it's probably 75/25, and we may be able to do 3 some of this in-house or in like kind, sort of like FEMA. 4 But I'm just not -- I haven't gone that far into it. John 5 says that there is funding available, and we'd like to -- I'd 6 like to pursue it to see if it's there. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It'll be a FEMA grant? Is 8 that what we're talking about? John came to see me about 9 this, and I referred him back to Road and Bridge. 10 MR. ODOM: I'll turn it over to John. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I did prepare a packet 12 of maps so that all of us could see exactly what's going on 13 in the county and have some specific reference to what -- the 14 creeks that are in our particular precincts. So -- 15 MR. HEWITT: Commissioner, it's Texas Water 16 Development Board funding. But the one thing I'd add is, 17 right now, if you develop your property in a Zone A, you're 18 going to have to go hire a surveyor or you're going to have 19 to hire an engineer to determine what the base flood 20 elevation is that you have to be a foot above. So, the 21 taxpayer would have to hire that person to do that study. If 22 you're in an AE zone where that elevation is defined, you 23 can -- you don't have to do that. And the benefit to the 24 citizens would be that we would define more AE zones in the 25 county, and so they wouldn't have to make that payment. 7-27-09 99 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And the citizen would come 2 along, and by your authority -- I mean, you have the same 3 authority as the State? 4 MR. HEWITT: Yeah -- well, we'd have to get that 5 approved by the state. We would define the floodplain, come 6 up with the elevation, and have the state approve that, and 7 then we would go and submit it to FEMA and get their approval 8 as well. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Like anybody else. 10 MR. ODOM: But it would be the best -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That would establish the 12 level, to where you'd know whether you were in or out of the 13 floodplain. 14 MR. ODOM: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In areas where we don't 16 know that now. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We don't know as much as we 18 should. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What is Zone X? 21 MR. ODOM: Zone X is the 500. It's two different 22 ones. It's backed up water, or either it's sloping terrain, 23 and where you could possibly have flooding; you could be out 24 of the flood zone. But it's possible in the future, as the 25 government gets into this, maybe the 500 might come into the 7-27-09 100 1 floodplain. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It appears on the map that the 3 A areas are larger than the AE areas. Is that because 4 there's a -- because they don't know for sure, they 5 overestimate, possibly? 6 MR. HEWITT: Absolutely. They use 20-foot contour 7 intervals to do that, to define those A zones. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: By doing this, we actually get 9 more precise information. This helps the public. That, in 10 turn, saves them -- 11 MR. ODOM: Saves them some money. If we can get -- 12 get the study done, we'll have a better idea. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And your request to us is for 14 each of us to come up with some creeks that we would like to 15 go from A to AE? 16 MR. ODOM: Tributaries to the Guadalupe basically 17 is what we're looking at. That's what happens, and A is 18 backed up water. When the Guadalupe gets up, then it backs 19 up the tributaries to it. That's where they get in trouble, 20 building back in these areas. And that water's backed up, 21 'cause you can't go anywhere. Guadalupe's -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the study will reveal 23 that. 24 MR. ODOM: Sir? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This study will give us a 7-27-09 101 1 better understanding of that. 2 MR. ODOM: That's right. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 4 MR. ODOM: And it depends how much we can go up 5 into a tributary, how much money we got. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are these -- we have the maps 7 on backup. Is that the whole county? I mean, there's -- I 8 don't know -- 9 MR. ODOM: I believe so. We just -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're supposed to have 11 gotten a whole packet. 12 MR. ODOM: I don't think it's the whole county. I 13 think it's areas that we just chose to -- to present to you, 14 that you're familiar with. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: John prepared a whole 16 packet for everybody. 17 MR. HEWITT: But that's not everybody, everywhere 18 in the county. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Several maps. 20 MR. HEWITT: Based on the floodplain development 21 permits we get, we see a lot of activity on the north fork of 22 the Guadalupe and the Turtle Creek areas. Those are Zone A's 23 right there. 24 MR. ODOM: Then you go toward Comfort from Center 25 Point on up, and the tributaries that feed into it, those are 7-27-09 102 1 the areas we think that development would go as the sewer 2 line and water goes in. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Verde Creek is always a 4 problem in terms of if the Guadalupe's over its banks. 5 Always. 6 MR. ODOM: Always. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: On the master map, you've indicated 8 the areas that you propose to study, that you've highlighted 9 in there; then there are individual panels of each particular 10 area? 11 MR. HEWITT: Exactly. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: But those are the areas that you 13 think there's more likelihood of development or possible 14 building in the future that you think are appropriate areas 15 to study that would be most affected? 16 MR. HEWITT: Yes. 17 MR. ODOM: Appropriate for you to review, but you 18 may have different thoughts. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How -- how do you get access to 20 the property? Don't you have to go out and do a survey, I 21 would take it, on -- how do you get -- I mean, do you just 22 call people and see if you can get on the property? We don't 23 go unless they invite us? 24 MR. ODOM: No, we don't. 25 MR. HEWITT: And the one thing, you'll probably 7-27-09 103 1 have to have a local matching contribution there, and that 2 would probably be the surveyor would go out -- county 3 survivor would do that work. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much money are you 5 going to seek from Water Development Board for this project? 6 MR. HEWITT: Depends on which ones of those creeks 7 you'd like to study. I believe they have $500,000 available 8 for the whole state this next year, so -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Can't ask for all 10 that. 11 MR. HEWITT: No, probably not. A ballpark number 12 is $10,000 a mile -- a linear mile to study a creek. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 2,000? 14 MR. HEWITT: 10,000. $10,000. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 10,000. 16 MR. HEWITT: Per linear mile to do the complete 17 study. 18 MR. ODOM: This may be an ongoing project. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Five-gallon bucket. 20 MR. HEWITT: Excuse me? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sounds to me like you need to 22 find out if you can get some of that money, or like Len said, 23 get a little bit done each year. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, going to have to be a 25 little bit each year. 7-27-09 104 1 MR. ODOM: This is going to be an ongoing project 2 for at least five years. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: John, all these that you've 4 identified on the top map, any and all of the precincts, how 5 many miles does that represent? Do you know? 6 MR. HEWITT: I would say that would be 7 to 7 8 miles. That's a guess. 8 MR. ODOM: The quicker we get there, then we may 9 get in line ahead of some other people. And at least if we 10 don't get it this year, then we would probably be picked up. 11 MR. HEWITT: And that's a good point, because when 12 I talked to the Water Development Board, this isn't very 13 common knowledge right now. Not everybody knows that there's 14 money available to do this. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would you prepare the grant 16 application? 17 (Mr. Hewitt nodded.) 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And bring that back for the 19 Court's approval? 20 MR. HEWITT: Mm-hmm, based on the streams that 21 you'd want to study. 22 MR. ODOM: Nothing's in stone. Moses didn't carve 23 this out of stone, okay? So it's flexible. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, we -- give us a deadline 25 when to give you the creeks. 7-27-09 105 1 MR. ODOM: How about tomorrow? No. 2 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 3 MR. ODOM: He said September 21st is when they 4 would like to have something, so how about the -- by the 5 second meeting in August? Is that enough time? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And we communicate back to 7 John or you? 8 MR. ODOM: Then we can go back to -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This shouldn't take that long. 10 We really can't afford to do a whole lot. Maybe identify 11 10 miles, and -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 13 MR. ODOM: Then we'd see what our funding is over 14 five years, see if we can do that. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to just bring the agenda 16 item back next meeting? 17 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: And by that time, they'll each have 19 the preferences. 20 MR. ODOM: Hopefully that gives everybody enough 21 time to -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 MR. ODOM: -- relate their -- their interest in an 24 area. You know, it may not be the whole tributary. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 7-27-09 106 1 MR. ODOM: Maybe half a mile up the tributary, or a 2 mile. And at least a mile up a tributary from the Guadalupe 3 would take care of a lot of people, or a lot of land. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You want us to get it 6 straight back to John, not you? 7 MR. ODOM: That, or -- you could either get with 8 John or give it to Kelly. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to come back on 11 the Court and come up with a list, and we each get about two 12 to two and a half miles, it looks like. 13 MR. ODOM: I would suggest that. Two, two and a 14 half miles. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Might get it over with 16 quicker than that. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know. I could 18 pretty well predict -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mine's done. 20 MR. ODOM: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: His is all studied. 22 MR. ODOM: I think those are on there that we 23 looked at. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 25 MR. ODOM: So, is the Court going to get with us 7-27-09 107 1 and give it so I can put it on the next agenda? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, put it on the next agenda; 3 we'll come back. Let's go to Item 12; consider, discuss, 4 take appropriate action to accept a proposal from John Hewitt 5 for emergency action plan for Ingram Lake Dam located in 6 Precinct 4. 7 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir, if I can open it. The -- I 8 went to the dam safety seminar in Brady, and after coming 9 back, finding out that we have a new state law January the 10 1st of '09, and T.C.E.Q. has defined the steps involved in 11 the emergency action plan. We have three dams, and of those 12 three, the Ingram Dam is listed as high priority. It's high 13 risk, and the other two are low risk. So, what John and I 14 have talked -- he has looked at, there is a procedure, and I 15 think in this packet that you see where T.C.E.Q. had criteria 16 to have an action plan in case a dam broke, and how to 17 identify that. What we need to do is have the impact area 18 determined. That has not been done on our dams. The 19 priority is Ingram Lake, that dam in Ingram. And once we do 20 that, there's a price that John has said that he could take 21 this information, after talking to T.C.E.Q., we could 22 determine that impact area, and from that -- and then we put 23 the plan together. Now, what I didn't put here is that I 24 would -- I suggest that we do this for $4,000, that we 25 identify that, and to meet T.C.E.Q.'s requirements. Also, 7-27-09 108 1 next year. And I have the money, a line item to take care of 2 that in flood -- flood control, or flood damages. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you have four or do you 4 have eight? 5 MR. ODOM: Sir? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you have 4,000 or do you 7 have 8,000? 8 MR. ODOM: I have 6,000. I have 4,000 to cover 9 this Ingram Dam. The only thing we need -- the two that are 10 low, that's Center Point and Flat Rock; I don't have to do 11 anything to, not by state law. Okay? But what I'd like to 12 do with Flat Rock Dam is to come back next budget year and do 13 an impact study on that. And the reason is because I'm 14 concerned that development will occur between where that 15 impact area is and the dam, and if that occurs, then we 16 change our tort liabilities and we change -- we jeopardize 17 the rating, to move the rating from a low to a high. And I 18 don't need all the things that T.C.E.Q. -- T.C.E.Q. has 19 required, because all I need is that impact area. It's low 20 priority. But if we don't look at something to control 21 development between that dam and that impact area, then we're 22 very likely to change the risk level on that dam. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me offer to you, 24 Leonard, that while the current assessments might be that 25 there's not a lot of development beneath Flat Rock Lake Dam 7-27-09 109 1 before -- between that point and the Center Point Dam, there 2 are several homes there, and there is a proposed development 3 on the banks of the Guadalupe. 4 MR. ODOM: That's what we're afraid of. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just west of Brinks 6 Crossing. 7 MR. ODOM: Well, I don't know where the impact 8 area's going to be. I don't think it's going to be that far 9 down; however, what we need to determine is that impact area. 10 Should that dam breach, where -- what is that impact area? 11 John can do that, and we can do it for less money than 12 $4,000, but we need to know that. And I believe then -- Rex 13 is not going to like this, but we'll maybe authorize him to 14 take a look at it. I need to talk to some people to find out 15 what the legal definition of "structures" is. I've been told 16 by a gentleman that -- a lawyer that was retired from FEMA, 17 that you can restrict -- it has to be done properly, but you 18 can restrict development. Is a pavilion or a boat dock 19 construed as a structure? Very vague. I need to find out 20 what they're talking about. I believe that we can restrict 21 development between the dam and that impact area. If we do, 22 then we keep that dam at a low risk. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you're talking 24 about two things here. You're talking about an emergency 25 action plan, and now you're talking about an extension of 7-27-09 110 1 that and getting into restricting development in a certain 2 area. 3 MR. ODOM: That's correct. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, what are we talking 5 about? A or B, or both? 6 MR. ODOM: Emergency plan -- oh. Well, no, listen 7 to me. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm trying. 9 MR. ODOM: Okay. Ingram Dam requires an emergency 10 plan. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 12 MR. ODOM: No ifs, ands, or buts, high priority. 13 The other two do not, sir. What I'm saying is that the one 14 at Flat Rock, I believe that we need to do an impact study 15 just where the impact area is. Not all the things that John 16 has to do for Ingram, but where the impact area is, then we 17 can look at that development. Where is that distance from 18 the dam, and how can we limit that development so a low area 19 does not become high? I believe it only takes seven 20 structures or seven people to be jeopardized; we go to high. 21 Then you're going to have to do things. You're going to have 22 to have inspections. And I would like to think that we could 23 catch it and keep it in a low area and limit that 24 development, whatever that development may be. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: County Attorney is waving his 7-27-09 111 1 arm saying we can't talk about anything except Ingram Dam. 2 The agenda item says Ingram Dam only. 3 MR. ODOM: Okay, I won't do it again. (Laughter.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Better to ask forgiveness than 5 permission, isn't it? 6 MR. ODOM: I will, yes. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, we need an agenda item to 8 discuss Flat Rock for next year's budget, and you want to -- 9 we're going to go ahead and proceed with Ingram now? 10 MR. ODOM: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think this is a good idea. I 12 mean, I'm -- 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- I'm sure the City of 15 Kerrville really likes the idea with Ingram. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Commissioner Williams and I 17 attended a seminar in San Antonio on this very issue several 18 months ago. 19 MR. ODOM: We have the system -- Rusty has that 20 system on the phone system. Once we can identify the impact 21 area, then we can identify those properties and put that 22 phone where they can be called should there be an emergency. 23 So, we just need to do the analysis to determine that impact 24 area, and then we have a system to identify everybody. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Quick question. Mr. Hewitt, 7-27-09 112 1 does the study for Ingram Dam, does it -- or when you do that 2 study, will it include impact on U.G.R.A. -- or whatever that 3 lake's called now, Lochte Lake or whatever? It won't include 4 that? 5 MR. HEWITT: No, it will only be Ingram Lake Dam. 6 It won't extend that far down. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The impact doesn't go -- it's 8 not that big an impact? 9 MR. HEWITT: No. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Water gets -- 11 MR. ODOM: Its surges. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Elongates real fast. 13 MR. ODOM: Going to elongate real fast. 14 MR. HEWITT: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I move we approve the 16 proposal from John Hewitt for the emergency action plan for 17 Ingram Lake Dam. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Question 20 or discussion? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Funds are to come from our 22 flood control? 23 MR. ODOM: Yes, uh-huh. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Flood control. 25 MR. ODOM: From 459. 611-459. 7-27-09 113 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Further discussion? All in favor of 2 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. As earlier 7 indicated, you're going to pass Item 14 and Item 16. We'll 8 go to Item 17; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 9 authorize Kerr County Maintenance Supervisor to go out for 10 bid for electrical, plumbing, HVAC, and pest control 11 services. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 15 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 16 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll go to 21 Item 18; consider, discuss, take appropriate action regarding 22 approving the inmate telephone service agreement with Global 23 Tel*Link Corporation. Sheriff? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This is also the current 25 provider for our inmate phone system at the jail. We've had 7-27-09 114 1 them for five years now, Global Tel*Link. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Kerr County Attorney approve this? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Rex has approved the contract. 4 It's not something we have to go out for bids, 'cause it's 5 not what we're spending money on. We make a little money off 6 of this. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second -- so moved. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 10 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 11 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll go to 16 Item 19; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 17 regarding renewal of the Texas Department of Public Safety 18 Interlocal Cooperation Contract. Sheriff? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: All this does is help us 20 acquire all the equipment to run the breathalyzer, 21 intoxilizer that's run by D.P.S. You have to have 22 mouthpieces. This is just a renewal that we do every year. 23 Rex looked at it a few minutes ago, okay? He did not have it 24 before then, but it's one of the very basic -- two-page deal. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 7-27-09 115 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 4 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor, signify by 5 raising your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carries. We'll go to 20; 10 consider, discuss, take appropriate action to adopt amended 11 bylaws/resolution dealing with membership and duties of the 12 Library Board as adopted by the Library Advisory Board. 13 Commissioner Oehler? 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Library Board has been 15 redoing some of the bylaws. I think it's actually going to 16 be called an ordinance from the City, and I'll just tell you 17 very briefly what the major change is, and it's in Section 3, 18 and it's the board shall be composed of eight members. Three 19 members serving as ex-officio status will be composed of one 20 Commissioners Court, one City Councilman, and one member of 21 the Kerrville Genealogical Society. They will not be voting 22 members any more. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How's that differ from the 24 current? 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The current one, we are 7-27-09 116 1 voting members, except the Genealogical Society doesn't have 2 a representative. And I don't see any problem with it, 3 because we're not doing a 50/50 cost share any more. We're 4 giving "X" amount of dollars by contract every year, and I 5 don't really see any reason why that we should vote, either 6 the Council or myself, 'cause we don't really have any 7 authority anyway; all we do is we're kind of the messengers. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that a motion? 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's a motion to approve 10 the new ordinance of the -- the -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second it. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- the Library Advisory 13 Board. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 15 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 16 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll go to 21 Item 21; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 22 approve and adopt ETJ agreement with the City of Kerrville. 23 Commissioner Letz? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, can we pass on this till 25 after lunch? Mr. Browning needed to go to a meeting at 11:30 7-27-09 117 1 and asked that -- he'd like to be present for this 2 discussion. He had to leave for a prior commitment. I think 3 he'll be here after lunch. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: You think he will? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think so. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll move to Item 22; consider, 7 discuss, and take appropriate action concerning adoption of 8 child safety fees by Kerr County as permitted by Texas 9 Department of Transportation. This is a matter that TexDOT 10 notified me about, and if we want to adopt that, we must do 11 so by a given time. Otherwise, we merely send this in, and 12 we will remain the same with our standard $10 fee. The 13 maximum fee for child safety that only a few counties have 14 adopted is -- you can probably see by the information 15 furnished, is a maximum of $1.50. Anybody inclined to go -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to adopt it? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't want us to become 20 known as a fee -- a county that just raises fees all the 21 time. We do that occasionally, and we have a lot of fees, 22 but if we start just grabbing hold of everything that comes 23 along, you know, we're going to get -- I don't know. I have 24 a -- I have bad thoughts about people that just live -- try 25 to live off of fees. But -- 7-27-09 118 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I was going to say, I hope 2 there's a "but" on there. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- that $1.50 is big-time 4 stuff. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, we're getting $1.50 now, 6 and if we -- is that -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: No, we're getting $10 now per 8 registration. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: This is an additional fee. I think 11 it's -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let's not -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: -- not to exceed a 1.50. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: From 50 cents to $1.50. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We could set it at -- 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There it is. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- 78 cents. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: And I assume your motion is for the 20 $1.50? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we have a motion to adopt the 23 child safety fee of $1.50. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The Tax Collector has -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ms. Bolin has a comment. 7-27-09 119 1 MS. BOLIN: That is a special fund that has to be 2 -- that the County gets nothing from. All we get to do is 3 collect it and send it to the state. And, personally, I 4 don't think it's a good idea. Within the next two years, 5 TexDOT's revamping our registration fees, and it's more than 6 likely that a vehicle that is now $40 will be $100. And when 7 you start adding on even this dollar and a half, I don't 8 think it's a good idea. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The Road and Bridge fee, the 10 $10 Road and Bridge fee, do we either keep all of it or -- 11 MS. BOLIN: The $10 we do; the dollar and a half we 12 get nothing from. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We get nothing out of this 14 dollar and a half? 15 MS. BOLIN: No, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just reading the -- it says 17 it's used to provide school crossing guard services. How do 18 they do it if it doesn't get local -- I mean, the money has 19 to somehow get back to the local community. 20 MS. BOLIN: That part I'm not sure of. I haven't 21 been able to find any more information out about how it's 22 actually divided out. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just builds up over there, 24 and they spend it for something else, maybe. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Could be. 7-27-09 120 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, the $10 Road and Bridge 2 fee we do keep, and we use it for special projects, I think, 3 or used to. 4 MS. BOLIN: Correct. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And this thing, we don't get 6 anything out of it. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that's a point, 8 though. How -- if we don't get anything out of it, how would 9 they propose that it be used locally for -- 10 MS. BOLIN: That part I haven't figured out. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- crossing guards and 12 things of that nature? 13 MS. BOLIN: I don't know. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I guess we could put them 15 out in replacing the cattle guards. (Laughter.) 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a thought. They 17 could stand guard over cattle. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion. Do we have a 19 second? Motion dies for lack of a second. I will submit the 20 same fees as imposed previously. Let's go to Item 23; 21 consider, discuss, take appropriate action on proposed 22 disaster/emergency employee policy which allows reimbursement 23 for employees during disasters as permitted by state and 24 federal regulations. I had drafted this language to -- our 25 regional state emergency management people encouraged us, if 7-27-09 121 1 we wanted to be able to obtain reimbursement from FEMA, 2 primarily, and maybe to a lesser degree any state agency, in 3 cases where our county employees may have taken on additional 4 duties or worked extra hours on state or federally declared 5 disasters, that the only way that we were going to be able to 6 do that is if we had a policy -- a county-wide policy in 7 place which authorized that. So, in that regard, I drafted 8 this section to go with our personnel policy for compensation 9 -- personnel compensation policy. It allows that additional 10 compensation, compensatory time or whatever, as permitted by 11 applicable reimbursement regulations of the state or federal 12 government. So, without that reimbursement, it would not be 13 applicable. That's why I did it. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This -- best you can tell, this 15 is sufficient language? It seems pretty simple. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I bounced it off of the state 17 emergency management people, and they did a total disclaimer, 18 that they don't give legal advice. They don't -- you know, 19 they sit over there and do their bureaucratic thing and 20 collect their bureaucratic paycheck. I asked in advance of 21 preparing this provision for some assistance from them, maybe 22 some samples of other policies that might have been put in 23 place by other -- other local governments, and they declined. 24 They want to stay above the fray. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 7-27-09 122 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 3 approval. Question or discussion? Ms. Hyde? 4 MS. HYDE: Can we change one word? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: What's that? 6 MS. HYDE: You see it on about the third line down, 7 where it says, "such employee shall be entitled." Can we put 8 "may"? And that way it stays with the flow in case they 9 don't, sir. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Good point. 11 MS. HYDE: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Good point. 14 MS. HYDE: Y'all taught me "shall" and "may." 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Works for me. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's good. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: It's still tied to whatever the 20 reimbursement program is anyway. 21 MS. HYDE: Yes. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Other question or discussion? All 23 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7-27-09 123 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 3 Item 24; consider, discuss, and take appropriate to return 4 check to the Hill Country Community M.H.M.R. on the C.S.U. 5 road and parking lot project. As most of you know, we got a 6 check for -- I believe it was for material costs on the 7 C.S.U. road and parking lot that was done in a very, very 8 professional and expert manner by our Road and Bridge people, 9 and I don't think the M.O.U. that we entered into with them 10 provided for that, so I'd like authorization to return the 11 check to them. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, although they should 13 pay for the material, I agree with you; the M.O.U. does not 14 allow you to do that, so I move to return the check to them. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 17 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have -- and the M.O.U. does 19 cover the -- the Sheriff's concerns about being able to take 20 people over to the State Hospital? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Different issue. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought it was all part of 23 the same issue. That's why we did this thing. If we don't 24 get anything to help the Sheriff, why don't we keep the 25 money? 7-27-09 124 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How's that solve the issue? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: There are some issues that are being 3 worked through. No, I'm not -- we're outside the agenda 4 item, and those are being worked through. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, we can always 6 reinforce them. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I think progress is being made. 8 Within the last several weeks or so, I've not been made aware 9 of any difficulties. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Further question or discussion? All 12 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion dose carry. Okay. Let's 17 go to Item 25; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 18 write a letter of support to L.C.R.A. on behalf of the Tierra 19 Linda Volunteer Fire Department for their grant request to 20 help purchase a new 2,000-gallon tanker truck. I put this on 21 the agenda at the request of the Tierra Linda Volunteer Fire 22 Department. They're technically located in Gillespie County 23 immediately north of the county line, but as we know, they 24 have a contractual relationship with Kerr County and serve an 25 area -- primarily Northwest Hills, Aqua Vista, the area just 7-27-09 125 1 north of town. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Everything that end of the 3 county, they do respond. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval, Judge. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 8 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 9 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 10 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 14 Item 26; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 15 approve and adopt personnel policy. 16 MS. HYDE: Y'all may not be happy about this. 17 There's been some more changes. We just added some more. 18 The I.T. policy that you guys reviewed, did y'all have any 19 additional changes? Rex found some grammatical errors he 20 wanted corrected in it. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did you provide it to all 22 of us? 23 MS. HYDE: I'm sorry? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Has everybody seen the new 25 I.T. policy? 7-27-09 126 1 MS. HYDE: I sent the I.T. policy out to everybody 2 last week, and then I think Jody made some copies for some 3 folks and put it in their boxes. Rex had a couple of 4 suggestions on some of the wording, and we've had some 5 changes throughout this. So, I'd like permission -- rather 6 than approve what you have in this book right now, I'd like 7 permission to go one more Commissioners Court before we 8 approve it so that they have one more chance to go through it 9 completely, all the strikeouts, everything is gone, so now it 10 looks like a finished product. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Why don't we just 12 pull it and come back another day? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. Let's move to 14 Item 27; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 15 declare certain personal property as surplus, authorize the 16 County Clerk to trade out the used microfilm equipment, Items 17 1, 2, and 3, for services of scanning of old records, and for 18 disposing of the remaining items, Numbers 4, 5, and 6, that 19 being calculators, typewriter, and ballot joggers. 20 Ms. Pieper? 21 MS. PIEPER: Basically, gentlemen, this is just 22 equipment that is not working or that we do not need. The 23 company that comes in my office and does scanning said that 24 they can use the microfilm equipment for parts, if we -- with 25 permission to trade out for services for the old equipment. 7-27-09 127 1 And then as far as the Items 4, 5, and 6, the calculators, 2 the typewriter, and the ballot joggers, those are -- the 3 calculators and the typewriter are -- they're broke; they 4 don't work. The ballot joggers are not needed, because that 5 was with the old system that we had. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 9 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 10 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 15 MS. PIEPER: Thank you. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 28; consider, 17 discuss, and take appropriate action to afford public access 18 to Kerr County wells at the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center 19 and Little League fields, and associated issues. 20 Commissioner Williams? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not sure what the 22 associated issues are, Judge, but I figured we'd sort that 23 out here. The purpose of putting it on the agenda was for us 24 to discuss whether or not we can or are willing to make water 25 available to those who have need from the wells -- I think we 7-27-09 128 1 have two wells, one at the Ag Barn and one at the Little 2 League field. I know the pump's been pulled on the one at 3 the Ag Barn. I'm not sure whether the casing is in such 4 condition that we can reestablish that or not, but I think 5 somebody on this Court knows that. And I also know that -- 6 at least I believe I know that the Little League field well 7 is tied into irrigation. Is that right, Commissioner Letz? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And what would be necessary 10 there. So, I thought it a good time for us to talk about all 11 the issues and determine whether or not we're willing to do 12 it, what's involved. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I see a question. 14 MS. McMAHON: I just wanted to mention, Gene 15 Williams, our manager at Headwaters, is at a conference in 16 Corpus this week, but I talked to him a little bit about it. 17 The well at the Little League field is permitted for, I 18 think, about 2,700,000 gallons of water, and it could 19 probably be used, but not for potable purposes. And what 20 Gene told me is it's important to keep in mind that T.C.E.Q. 21 would have some stringent requirements in terms of how the 22 water is transported to the area of use, if that's what 23 eventually happens. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How it's transported? 25 MS. McMAHON: The containers and so forth. I think 7-27-09 129 1 Gene said Section 290 publishes requirements for containing 2 the water. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Clearly, I think it's -- I 4 mean, I know it's non-potable water, because it's not a 5 public water system, even though it's perfectly good water. 6 MS. McMAHON: It's fine for flushing toilets, 7 washing clothes, other things that people need to do. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But I think it -- I 9 mean, I've not looked at that Little League well in some 10 years, but it is a relatively simple matter to make a hookup 11 so it could be used. I mean, there's a hose bib out there, 12 and it's a -- I want to say it's a 3-inch line that comes out 13 of that pump house, so you could pretty easily put up some 14 sort of a stand pipe that you could rapidly fill up, you 15 know, some vessels. I mean, I don't think it's really set up 16 for trucks, things of that nature, but I think for, you know, 17 people that need water, it could be -- I'm sure Tim could go 18 out and look, see what it would take. I don't think it's 19 that much to get it ready so people who need that water -- 20 and they can actually probably hook up -- I'm trying to 21 figure out -- tap into that line over on the new -- across 22 Third Creek, the new fields, and make it an easier spot to do 23 it, rather than doing it right at the well, 'cause that line 24 goes all the way to -- by the bridge over to the other side 25 of the park. 7-27-09 130 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Easier to get in and out. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In and out over there. 3 Otherwise, you have to drive back on that grass behind the 4 fields, run over pipes and brick, irrigation lines. Might 5 end up having more problems than -- but, yeah, I think that 6 if there's -- I'm not sure how great the need is. I hate to 7 spend a whole lot of money there, but certainly, that is a 8 very good well. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think one of the questions 10 is whether -- you know, whether we can make that water 11 available legally to them, to the public. You know, whether 12 we -- you know, no matter -- however we'd like to, I'm just 13 not sure that -- and Rex I think can enlighten us. Because 14 we have, you know, good storage and a big well that Mountain 15 Home Fire Department has that's part of the agreement; they 16 provide water to the county. But how do we do it? 17 MR. EMERSON: I think it's a lot more complicated 18 than what you're probably prepared to address today, 'cause 19 as you know, the County can only perform functions as 20 specifically designated by the State. And under Local 21 Government Code 562, which addresses the sale of the surplus 22 county water, it defines county surplus water as water that 23 the County's acquired from an underground source for the 24 county's water supply, and that it's not needed for county 25 purposes. The problem comes up in the next section, where it 7-27-09 131 1 restricts the sale or delivery of water to a public 2 corporation of the state or a political subdivision of the 3 state. It does not allow for distribution to private 4 citizens. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that's interesting. 6 MR. EMERSON: I'm no expert in the area, but my 7 assumption would be that it doesn't allow for it, because if 8 you're just distributing water to private citizens, you fall 9 under the Public Utilities Act. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And I -- and, I mean, 11 there is a -- the city of Kerrville -- I shouldn't say that; 12 I'm not sure if they're under Stage 3, if they can or will 13 provide water. Normal times, they will. You can buy water 14 from them. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somebody told me that they 16 are currently doing that. Didn't you tell me that? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know they were, but when they 18 get -- I'm not sure; did they go to Stage 3 last week? They 19 didn't? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Newspaper headline this morning said 21 they've averted going to Stage 3, is what I recall seeing. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know that they're -- I think 24 that may disappear. Or I'm not sure what their rules are, 25 but, I mean, there is -- they are set up to do that, I know, 7-27-09 132 1 and do do it. But I think that, clearly, while we have good 2 intentions to try to let our wells be available, lots of 3 other legal problems may come with doing that. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, if the County 5 Attorney says the law says we can't do it, we can't do it. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further on this one, 7 gentlemen? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The only other option would be 9 if the Judge declared an emergency, possibly. That changes 10 the rules. 11 MR. BOLLIER: You don't want me to do anything? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're probably not there 13 yet. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not yet. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, we're obviously going 16 to have some things to consider after lunch, so, why don't we 17 recess now for lunch. We'll come back at -- come back at 18 quarter of 2:00. 19 (Recess taken from 12:05 p.m. to 1:50 p.m.) 20 - - - - - - - - - - 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to order, if 22 we might. We were in recess. I was advised that there was a 23 citizen that wanted to participate with respect to the 24 floodplain areas, Zone A's and whatnot that should be 25 studied. And, yes, ma'am? Let's go back and let me recall 7-27-09 133 1 Item 11; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 2 determine what areas in the Zone A floodplain should be 3 studied in Precincts is 1, 2, 3, and 4. Ma'am, if you'd come 4 forward and give us your name and address and tell us what 5 your input is on these items, we'd appreciate it. 6 MS. LOVETT: Well, my name is Frances Lovett, 6749 7 Highway 27. My property is bordered on the south by the 8 river and on the north by Highway 27. And, actually, 9 Mr. Odom and Mr. Hewitt answered most of the questions I 10 have. I thought they were very complete in what they're 11 doing, but the one question still remaining is, at what point 12 will the Commissioners, or anyone in town, I guess -- I 13 understand you guys can only answer for yourself, but will 14 there be public hearings or input with -- with you all having 15 this -- the further study determination coming up, like 16 within the next couple of weeks, will there be any chance for 17 just ordinary citizens to -- who might have a -- who might 18 have an interest in that, to participate? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: My understanding, Ms. Lovett, is 20 that the matter is going to be reset for probably next 21 meeting, which will be the second Monday in August, and at 22 that time, each of the Commissioners will have provided their 23 priority areas to -- to Mr. Odom and the floodplain 24 administrator as to areas that they want in their respective 25 precincts to be studied, and the matter will be discussed 7-27-09 134 1 when that item is back on the agenda. 2 MS. LOVETT: Yeah. So, bottom line is if -- if 3 there is a resident in either one of you -- you gentlemen's 4 county who has a question or -- or wants to have their creek 5 studied or something, they need to contact that individual 6 Commissioner? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 8 MS. LOVETT: Is that right? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: That would be my suggestion, yes, 10 ma'am. Sure would be. 11 MS. LOVETT: All right. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Tell me exactly -- do you 13 live out west of town? 14 MS. LOVETT: No, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: East. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: East, okay. 17 MS. LOVETT: I live way east. I've got a Comfort 18 address. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. There he is. 20 MS. LOVETT: Yeah, I know. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Didn't sound real excited about 22 that, Jon. (Laughter.) 23 MS. LOVETT: Yeah. Well, no, I didn't mean it -- 24 no, it's just that I do understand, 'cause he comes -- I work 25 the polls, and he comes to vote in my precinct. That's the 7-27-09 135 1 way I know Mr. Letz. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Glad to know that Jon's exercising 3 his right to vote. 4 MS. LOVETT: Well, now you guys got me offtrack, 5 see. (Laughter.) My whole thrust is -- is community input. 6 And my experience with people in the county is more -- not 7 old-timers, people moving into the county, is they put a lot 8 of store in the FEMA floodplains. Now, I have had -- I made 9 it a little project of mine to tell people, when they're 10 building a house or, you know, I see surveyors out looking, 11 "Do you realize this was under 28 feet of water back in 12 1978?" And I've had them say over and over, "Well, FEMA's 13 taken care of that. That's not a 100-year floodplain any 14 more," you know. So, I really feel like our public needs 15 some education. They really depend a lot. So, will there be 16 hearings? Do y'all project, even beyond this next couple of 17 weeks, that there will be any hearings before a final plat is 18 submitted? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I'm not sure of the 20 process that we'll be going through on adoption, but there 21 will be opportunity for the public to give us input, either 22 one-on-one, or we'll have -- it will be -- any action taken 23 will be at the Commissioners Court, and we'll be able to -- 24 and maps will certainly be public prior to us voting on them. 25 MS. LOVETT: Oh, I got you, okay. Now, I know some 7-27-09 136 1 of this -- since I was here this morning, some of this needs 2 to go to Mr. Hewitt, because I guess he's the person who 3 submits the final -- whatever. Or maybe y'all do. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He's working for the County. 5 He's working for us. 6 MS. LOVETT: I got you, okay. So, then, I guess my 7 only request would just be -- would just be that nothing be 8 sent in to FEMA without public comment. And I guess that's 9 part of the process, so why am I here, huh? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glad you're here. 11 MS. LOVETT: Thank you so much. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Lovett. Okay. Let's 13 go to item -- let me find it -- back to Item 21, which we 14 passed this morning, to consider, discuss, take appropriate 15 action to approve and adopt the ETJ agreement with the City 16 of Kerrville. Commissioner Letz? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. Let me hand out -- I'll 18 do this part first, what I just handed out. These are some 19 items that I wrote down. We can go through them one by one 20 briefly, but I think they need to be addressed in the 21 interlocal agreement with the City of Kerrville. And some of 22 these, I think, you know, I put down partially, because I 23 just think they need to be talked about a little bit more. 24 And some of them are things that actually need to be done 25 exactly as I wrote them. But the first one, the maps, when 7-27-09 137 1 we get to the map in a minute, as to how we revised it based 2 on the workshop, or I revised it. 3 Second item was under the City of Kerrville, 4 develop or revise rural standards -- subdivision standards. 5 And I talked to the City Manager about this briefly the other 6 day, and I'm still unclear really as to where the City's 7 going with their rural subdivision standards, if they're 8 going to continue to have them or not have them, but I think 9 that they need to have them. I hope they continue to have 10 them. And I just would like it addressed in the agreement 11 that if they are going to have rural standards which we 12 support, that we would like to be consulted as a Court before 13 they adopt them. And not that we would veto or anything like 14 that; I just think it's important. I think there's, you 15 know, rural standards or something that they do have now, and 16 hopefully they'll continue. 17 Next one was all roads constructed in a subdivision 18 in the ETJ shall be built to Kerr County road standards. 19 This has been a sticking point under our last agreement. And 20 our road standards are very, very similar, but in the ETJ, if 21 it's going to be a County-maintained road, we clearly have to 22 -- they have to go through our standards. I mean, they just 23 have to; that's all -- just the only way I look at it. 24 Really, if they're not going to be turned over to the County, 25 they still should be built to our standards. I don't think 7-27-09 138 1 there's a problem with that with the City, but I just wanted 2 to make sure. I think it needs to be real clear that those 3 standards are ours, 'cause our standards are very, very 4 similar at the moment. 5 Next one is something I didn't see addressed in the 6 draft that I saw of the agreement, but sure as anything, 7 we're going to come up with a map that's going to have lines 8 on it, and the first developments we get are going to cross 9 those lines, and I think that we need to have in the 10 agreement who's going to handle those so both jurisdictions 11 don't handle them. And I put in here that if it crosses 12 inside the ETJ, the boundary of our area of jurisdiction 13 versus the City's, the City would have authority on it. And 14 then if it goes between the ETJ into the county, the County 15 would have jurisdiction on it. Right now, we kind of have 16 been splitting that up a little bit, and it's -- I think it's 17 confusing. We need to have some -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, one -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It needs to be addressed. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- one point that I could 21 make with that is that, what if -- if it says it's built to 22 the City of Kerrville standards, what about them approving 23 those substandard lot sizes that are in the ETJ, but require 24 on-site sewage facilities? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, they're -- that's 7-27-09 139 1 addressed a little bit later. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. It just looked like 3 that was -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Jon, before you move on, -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- the one that talks about 7 any proposed subdivision in the ETJ that falls within the 8 boundary of both jurisdictions shall be only subject to 9 standards of the City. Then the next one talks about the 10 same thing, but it says be subject to the standards of the 11 County. Am I reading it wrong? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The second one is crossing the 13 ETJ boundary. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Going outside. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Going outside of the ETJ 16 boundary. The first one's crossing boundaries that -- that 17 we have created within the ETJ. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the second one is going 20 beyond the ETJ. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got you. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not really hung up on how 23 we do that. I just think that it's important that it's 24 addressed, because it seems like they are always crossing 25 boundaries. I think we need to have an agreement on that. I 7-27-09 140 1 just wrote down something that came to mind in the agreement. 2 And I can support what I wrote, but it's just -- you know, 3 some things I'm a lot more stubborn on my belief than others. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which one -- City of Kerrville 6 and Kerr County shall be responsible for floodplain review 7 and necessary permits for subdivisions within their 8 respective areas of jurisdiction. Again, this needs to be 9 addressed. This is the way that Len Odom would like to do 10 it. I'm not sure the City can do that. I'm not sure the 11 City has jurisdiction outside of the city limits of 12 Kerrville. And I see Mr. Browning shaking his head that they 13 don't. But, again, I think we need to make it very clear in 14 here. And we might be able, through interlocal agreement, 15 though, to give them that authority, but I don't know. It's 16 something that needs to be resolved so when we're signing off 17 on plats, we know exactly who has to sign. And then the -- 18 the last one is any plat where lots are served by on-site 19 septic service shall be approved by Kerr County Environmental 20 Health Department on preliminary and final plats. That's -- 21 I think there were some problems in the last round of this, 22 and I don't know how the City wants to handle it, but that's 23 something that's critical. I know that there's a -- it's 24 circulated through, but they just need to be in the approval 25 process. And we don't have any latitude on that; state law 7-27-09 141 1 requires it, you know, so it just needs to be worked into the 2 system. 3 These are some points that I came up with. Rex 4 looked at the draft agreement and had some comments also on 5 it. I guess everyone got a copy of his comments. And I -- 6 and I agree with him. And the way it's worded right now on 7 Section 3B, it says, "In carrying out its authority under 8 this agreement, the County shall not lessen any subdivision 9 regulation or public improvement specification of the City 10 applicable to subdivisions." That, to me, and I think to 11 Rex, is going back to trying to come up with one set of rules 12 for the ETJ, and I thought -- I think we're doing -- I 13 thought we were going in a different direction where we're 14 going to have city rules in the city areas and county rules 15 in the county areas, subject to a few modifications. I don't 16 know if that was a -- I'm not sure. That needs to be 17 clarified, because that doesn't make sense, in my mind, to 18 have that provision in there. That kind of -- well, then, 19 why are we even going through a map and dividing up areas of 20 jurisdiction if we're having the exact same set of rules? If 21 we have to have one set of rules, we need to go back to the 22 drawing board and come up with one set of rules. That's 23 where we couldn't -- we were at an impasse before when we 24 went to going with the map. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. If you were able to 7-27-09 142 1 do that, this conversation would have been over two years 2 ago. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. So, those are the 4 comments I have. The process on this, I know City Council 5 and County are both -- we're anxious to get this process 6 moving and get it resolved as quickly as we can. I think 7 what we need to do, really, is at this point, you know, focus 8 on the areas of jurisdiction, try to get that hammered out, 9 and really, this week at the latest. I think we're almost 10 there, I think, or are there. And then get the documents and 11 our requirements and the City's requirements to the County 12 Attorney and City Attorney and let them work out a draft 13 agreement. I don't believe that the County Attorney has 14 visited with the City Attorney at all on this phase of -- the 15 most recent phase, writing the draft. The City Attorney 16 wrote -- has written two drafts so far, and we haven't given 17 an official response back one way or the other, and that's 18 going to take several weeks, I mean, to get that done. So, I 19 think we need to, you know, still work on the outline as we 20 have been, try to -- and get that guidance to the two 21 attorneys to write the agreement. But all of that's for 22 naught if we can't agree on a map. And based on our 23 workshop -- I'll stand up and look at it. Or do y'all care 24 to look at it? I -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does anybody care? 7-27-09 143 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Making my eyes water. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We care. Go ahead. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We care. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We love you, Jon. We love 5 you. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Went into three areas where I 7 added more -- I guess shifted from the City's jurisdiction to 8 the County jurisdiction. It's the area pretty much from Twin 9 Springs over towards Creekwood, and the idea is to leave it 10 at a 2,000-foot line -- yeah, from the city limits to this 11 new line we're drawing, so it's pretty easy to define it. Do 12 the same thing up in Scenic Hills Subdivision north of I-10, 13 behind Cecil Atkission, up in that area, and then do the same 14 thing over in the Bear Creek area. Other than that, no 15 changes, other than the area across from Whiskey Canyon on 16 Highway 16. To me, that should go to the city jurisdiction. 17 I mentioned to Mr. Browning; I think I mentioned to Todd 18 Parton also that, you know, I really I wouldn't have a 19 problem. It's up to the City, really, but all the way around 20 the city limits, if there was a little 100-foot buffer into 21 the county area, 'cause I think that -- and I think, really, 22 Kerrville South area, I think the county or the city limits 23 line, I guess, is right along Lehmann Drive, somewhere right 24 along there, and some of that, whatever happens there, I 25 think that's really more Kerrville than county, and I think 7-27-09 144 1 they should be involved in that jurisdiction. But trying to 2 draw that on this scale doesn't make any sense, so I think 3 you just put that into writing, and I think it needs to be 4 real clear as to where those boundaries are. Try to use 5 roads, footage, and subdivision boundaries as much as 6 possible. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tell me again what this 8 buffer would do? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it's down there in that 10 Kerrville South area more than any other area. If, say, 11 someone's going to build an apartment building on the north 12 side -- or south side of Lehmann Drive, I really think the 13 kitty -- I mean, the -- not the kitty, the City. The City 14 should be involved in that. I think they would -- maybe 15 that's not a good example. A bunch of patio homes, some high 16 density, the City needs to be involved in that. It's clearly 17 right next to the city services. I don't know whether that's 18 100 foot, 200 foot, 300 foot, but I think there's some 19 distance right along an area -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: From wherever the city 21 limits line is. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Out into the Kerrville South 23 area. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: ETJ. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, out into the ETJ. The 7-27-09 145 1 City has -- you know, and there's a few other spots that kind 2 of are like that, not a whole lot. But I just think that 3 those areas need to -- you know, to me, should be in the 4 City's jurisdiction, not the County's. But if it's in the 5 county, that's fine too. Like I say, that's up to the City. 6 I'm, in 55 minutes, meeting with the City Manager to kind of 7 give him this new map, hopefully, or get to it them shortly 8 thereafter, and I think go over whatever we decide to do 9 today and report on that so he can report the same to City 10 Council tomorrow night. But, like I said, the map, I think 11 we're pretty much -- pretty close. The agreement's going to 12 take a little bit of time for the two attorneys to work out. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: You've been in the loop on that, 14 Mr. Browning? 15 MR. BROWNING: On which part, sir? I am on some, 16 but not all. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: You're going to test my memory now, 18 aren't you? 19 MR. BROWNING: Yeah. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's say the Creekwood area. Are 21 you familiar with that? 22 MR. BROWNING: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: 1,000, 2,000 foot buffer zone? That 24 seem to make sense to folks over there? 25 (Mr. Browning nodded.) 7-27-09 146 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Same over around -- on the west side 2 of 16? 3 MR. BROWNING: Mm-hmm. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That potentially commercial area 5 over there. Those are the only two big areas, aren't they? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And Bear Creek, Area A. And 7 it's, you know -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, along the river. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's the part along the river; 10 the City would maintain all that jurisdiction, and it's just 11 a strip closer to the ETJ the County would -- terrain-wise. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Then it's also fairly close 13 to sewer. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, the City, that lower 15 area, and that boundary, that's probably the -- I won't say 16 it's the least important, but -- from my standpoint, but I 17 can see this argument for who should control that a little 18 bit more vague over there, because there have been some 19 pretty large developments like Saddlewood have gone in over 20 there, even though Saddlewood isn't on city services. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, you're suggesting we 22 finalize the map as quickly as possible? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And let the two -- County 25 Attorney and City Attorney work out the interlocal agreement? 7-27-09 147 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Interlocal agreement, correct. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with that. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like that. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: But incorporating these principles 5 that you've put into this handout. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Certainly incorporating those. 7 They have to be addressed, in my mind, in that agreement. 8 Now, not -- there may be a different way to look at it. I 9 really don't think a lot of those are -- they're not deal 10 breakers, in my mind. Other than the O.S.S.F. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Other than O.S.S.F. That's a 12 deal breaker. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because that's a state law 14 thing. We just don't have an option. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We'd be violating state law. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And roads too. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The road standards are very, 18 very close right now. And -- and we have to look at that a 19 little bit. I mean, I think you may look at some of these, 20 depending on -- if there there's going to be truly a -- say a 21 Comanche Trace type development, and for whatever reason, the 22 City's not going to annex, but it's a high density 23 development, you know, our 60 foot right-of-way may be too 24 much. We may need -- you know, so I think we need to look at 25 some of these case-by-case, or come and get a variance from 7-27-09 148 1 the County. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. If you're going to do 3 curb and gutter, you don't need 60-foot right-of-ways. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. So -- but, anyway, 5 that's kind of where I think we are, and hopefully where 6 we're going. And, ideally, on Wednesday -- which I'm sure 7 this is on our agenda. I haven't really looked at it for our 8 joint meeting with City/County. Again, to me, that hopefully 9 we can finalize the map then, and then make sure that any 10 issues that are -- that need to be in the agreement are 11 brought up so that everyone's aware of that, but we're going 12 to try to iron out an agreement over here on Wednesday. I 13 think that's the time or the place. That's it. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Any particular action you're seeking 15 from the Court today? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We probably should have an 17 action to approve this map from the standpoint of offering it 18 back to the City. I'll make a motion. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a motion and a second for 21 approval of the new map to be submitted to the City. Further 22 question or discussion on the motion? All in favor of the 23 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7-27-09 149 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Anything 3 else you need? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's it. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Y'all be nice to him over there, 6 now, Gordon. 7 MR. BROWNING: Okay. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. That brings us, looks like, 9 to Item 29; consider, discuss, take appropriate action 10 regarding Court Compliance payment plans, who sets the plans, 11 who has authority to set them, when payments are made. I 12 don't suppose you want to be totally limited to that, but 13 generally those ballpark items; is that correct, 14 Commissioner? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll let you run with it. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much. And my 18 comment is very, very simple, but I think there may be others 19 in the room, and I certainly don't want to -- I want to give 20 them the opportunity to talk about these things if they so 21 wish. But my comment is, last week there was -- there was 22 some question over who has the authority over the Compliance 23 office. And I'm -- I'm pretty clear, Commissioners Court has 24 authority over the Compliance office. So, that's it. All I 25 have to say about that. Do you want me to say more? I mean, 7-27-09 150 1 I can talk for 30, 40 minutes. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Only if you feel like it, 3 Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, I -- you know, my 5 concern was who has the authority, and I think, in visits 6 with a couple of people around, that -- and, I mean, my 7 mind's settled about that. So -- but there may be others 8 that -- Linda, do you want to address any of this? Are you 9 happy? Or -- 10 MS. UECKER: I -- well -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 12 MS. UECKER: I don't have any question either, 13 Buster. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 15 MS. UECKER: The only question I had is, you know, 16 the -- the courts' desire, the three courts, of how the 17 payment plans were set up. Not who has authority over the 18 personnel part; I don't care about that. The only question I 19 had is how the -- the payments were applied on a payment 20 plan. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How do you feel about that 22 today? 23 MS. UECKER: Well, I don't know. What's happened? 24 I mean, is there -- is that going to change? Or -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, let me say this to 7-27-09 151 1 you. 2 MS. UECKER: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know what will 4 change and what not will change, but in a segment coming up 5 when we have the liaison reports to the Court, I will talk 6 about where we're heading with this thing of, like, drawing 7 up some policies, some guidelines and those kinds of things. 8 We're -- that's coming very, very soon. And -- 9 MS. UECKER: Okay. Good plan. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- we'll be doing -- yeah. 11 We'll be doing that. And that way, everybody will be clear 12 of how that office works and where the guidelines are, 13 whether -- where the little line is stepping across and 14 getting into trouble and those kinds of things. So, we're 15 going to get that established and we'll run it by everybody 16 before this Court -- 17 MS. UECKER: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- adopts it. 19 MS. UECKER: Well, I was just under the 20 understanding that some agreement had been reached last week, 21 I think, with Judge Williams. I mean, he came to see me 22 Friday and said, you know, everything's okay. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I had a long visit with 24 Judge Williams. 25 MS. UECKER: Okay. 7-27-09 152 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Y'all have anything? 2 Okay, Judge. That's all. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That's all you need? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's it. Thank you. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody else have anything to offer 6 on that? 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think we probably ought to 8 have some other things to offer on this. I'm not -- I'm real 9 -- I think I'm understanding how this thing is supposed to 10 work and how it works by way of the statute, who the fee 11 officers are, and that being Jannett and Linda. They're the 12 only ones that can accept money legally for those fees. Our 13 Compliance office is not supposed to be taking any money. 14 Number one, they're not bonded. If they're handling money, I 15 think they're doing it outside the scope of their duties. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are y'all handling money? 17 MS. LYLE: Not at all. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why are we talking about it? 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, because I don't want 20 that to become -- I don't want that to happen. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Me either. Neither do they. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. I just want to make 23 sure that that doesn't happen, because that's not what the -- 24 what it was set up for. As far as them being under our 25 direction, that's fine with me, except one thing. I think 7-27-09 153 1 that whenever we set down guidelines or make guidelines and 2 policy for that office, we need to include those people that 3 are the fee officers in that policy-making part. They've 4 been collecting fees a lot longer than any of us. They've 5 been doing court compliance until we set -- that office was 6 established, however many years ago it was established, and 7 it just needs to be real clear about how you do that, how you 8 run that office. We don't want to put -- I know that Terry 9 doesn't want to get into a libelous position, get herself in 10 trouble. We don't want her to get into trouble, and we don't 11 want trouble either, so that's why -- and we need to do this 12 thing pretty quickly, before something were to happen. I 13 think there's been a couple of things that have happened 14 recently that brought this to light, and I think it needs to 15 be handled very quickly. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'd like to know what 17 they are so we can get them corrected. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I think that one of 19 them came up in executive session last meeting, which I'm not 20 going to divulge -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- what went on in that, 23 because it would be unethical. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. I appreciate 25 that. 7-27-09 154 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But, you know, it just needs 2 to be etched in stone how that office operates, who they 3 answer to directly, and who makes sure that they're following 4 through with the policy and procedures of that office. 5 You're dealing with some -- indirectly, we're dealing with 6 some pretty good people that have gotten in trouble, who are 7 trying to do the right thing. And indirectly, we are dealing 8 through them -- or dealing directly with them that are not 9 good character people. And there are times when that 10 office -- I feel like it could be -- there could be some 11 danger involved. We need to be careful. Policy can dictate 12 a lot of that, and so the sooner we do this, the better. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner, as I understood your 14 comment, your proposal is to work on a set of policies 15 including input from the various stakeholders involved, fee 16 officers? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Persons involved in the process? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: And then bring that policy back and 21 present to it this Court for implementation? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, absolutely. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Seems like a logical place to go at 24 this point. Okay. Anything else? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Appreciate your input, 7-27-09 155 1 Bruce. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're welcome. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that's all I've got on the 4 list of agenda items, unless I went to sleep somewhere during 5 the meeting. Let's go to Section 4, payment of the bills. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's see. I'd like to make 7 a motion. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Get at it. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move we pay the bills. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to pay the 12 bills. Question or discussion on the motion? Question. Who 13 is Pioneer Research Corporation? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Pioneer Research Corporation, jail 16 repairs, solutions. And it's also over in juvenile 17 detention, isn't it? Shows up twice. 18 MR. BOLLIER: Sir? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 20 MR. BOLLIER: Who are they? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Who are they? 22 MR. BOLLIER: They come out of -- they come out of 23 California. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What do they do? 7-27-09 156 1 MR. BOLLIER: They -- they sell cleaning solutions 2 and all that good stuff. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, it's solutions as in material, 4 not answers to problems. 5 MR. BOLLIER: No, sir. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Answer to a dirty problem. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Unless you have to scrub 9 the problem. (Laughter.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I just noted that that's a pretty 11 nice -- pretty nice -- they must have good stuff. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Nieman Marcus of cleaning 13 supplies. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, 670 bucks worth for the jail. 15 MR. BOLLIER: Mm-hmm. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a long-lasting supply, I 17 hope. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Organic too, probably, Judge. 19 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: California. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: California and organic. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, you answered my question. Any 23 other questions or comments? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I did have one, and I 25 forgot to mark it. On Page 8, this is my department, the 7-27-09 157 1 Historical Commission. About halfway down. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I forgot to look. I've 4 forgotten how much money we actually put in that budget for 5 supplies and travel and those kinds of things, but it's kind 6 of rare to actually see it used. And I see three here all at 7 one time. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: There's been a few in the past, 9 reimbursements. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Here and there, but this one 11 here -- and, actually, what I think it is, I think the 12 Commission itself is getting a lot more active in doing some 13 other things. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe you're right. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But one here is 16 reimbursement for a camera. Do you think that we bought a 17 camera for Historical Commission? 18 MS. HARGIS: They bought a camera, yes. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, good. Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think it was 3,500, 21 Commissioner, if I'm -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: 35 or 45. Asked for 6,000, 7,000. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Asked for 6,000; I think we 24 approved 3,500. 25 MS. HARGIS: Either 2,500 or 3,500. 7-27-09 158 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think it's 35, but I don't 2 know. Somewhere in that neighborhood. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But you're keeping an eye on 4 that, I'm not. Right? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 6 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. That's all, 8 thank you. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And just below there, you'll note 10 that the Youth Exhibit Center was a customer of Pioneer 11 Research Corporation also. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Dang sure was. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm telling you, that's a hot outfit 14 out of California. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Solutions. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Why do you have to go all the 17 way to California to get cleaning -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else? All in favor 19 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. We got budget 24 amendments. Oh, do we have budget amendments. We have 42 25 budget amendments. 7-27-09 159 1 AUDIENCE: Oh my gosh. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: One of which is mine. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You and the grape jelly jar. 4 Did you run out of money? 5 MS. HARGIS: There are -- Juvenile Detention just 6 kind of rearranged his whole schedule so that that takes him 7 till the end of the year, so that's one of the reasons 8 there's so many there. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, looks like 5 through 20. 10 MS. HARGIS: Yeah. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: He just reworked -- 12 MS. HARGIS: He did an analysis of his accounts and 13 moved them where he knew he was going to need the money, so 14 he's done for the year. So, he believes he'll actually not 15 need any additional money, even though his revenue will go 16 over. And you'll actually have 12,000 left, is what he's 17 showing, so he's going to make it through the end of the year 18 without having to actually, you know, use -- allocate 19 additional revenues. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: And he will pass his revenue -- 21 MS. HARGIS: He's past his revenue. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: -- budget forecast this month? 23 MS. HARGIS: With the check that's in the bills to 24 be paid, he lacked $5,000. He'll be over. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 7-27-09 160 1 MS. HARGIS: He'll probably be over about $150,000 2 in revenue. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I was thinking maybe 100. 4 MS. HARGIS: About 150. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I like your figure better. 6 MS. HARGIS: Well -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: On some of these, I see the 8 letters F-I-C-A. Is that FICA? 9 MS. HARGIS: Mm-hmm. That happens a lot, too. 10 When we have employees that we had overtime, and we may not 11 have used the overtime, so we have more FICA in there. So, 12 his are, you know, just kind of moving things around. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Two different departments, I 14 saw. Knothead there did it, too. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Knothead? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sheriff. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. No, not the Sheriff. 18 (Laughter.) 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you, Buster. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's who I thought you were 21 talking about. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mine's square. It's not 23 knothead; it's square. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're square head, he's 25 blockhead. Knothead. Sorry, guys. That is not very nice, 7-27-09 161 1 and you know that I desire to be a nice person. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, right. 3 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: While we're speaking of being nice, 5 Linda, you're -- I'm sure your comment earlier today being 6 with the ATM machine was meant to be humorous, but can you 7 back that up? 8 MS. UECKER: You bet I can. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 10 MS. UECKER: About the lawyers? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I want to see a summary of all your 12 insufficient checks, irrespective of whether or not they 13 were -- 14 MS. UECKER: I think there's -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: -- ever paid or not. 16 MS. UECKER: There's a privacy issue. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Huh? No. If they were county funds 18 coming in, there's no privacy issue there. 19 MS. UECKER: It wasn't one of yours, if that's what 20 you're worried about. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I just want to see if anybody 22 besides -- according to your allegation, I just -- I just 23 want you to establish what you said, or maybe say, "I didn't 24 mean it." (Laughter.) Pay your money, take your choice. 25 MS. UECKER: What do you want, a list of lawyers 7-27-09 162 1 that -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I want a list of all of your 3 insufficient checks. 4 MS. UECKER: Oh. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Your statement was very global. 6 MS. UECKER: I told you that I hardly ever get any. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: You've never taken an insufficient 8 check from a convicted felon. The only -- only hot checks 9 that you'd ever received were from lawyers. 10 MS. UECKER: That's not what I said. I said most 11 of them are from lawyers. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Most of them. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll get the record. Okay, we'll 14 bring it back. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe you have a convicted 16 felon who thinks he's a lawyer. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Could be. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's not a lot of 19 difference in there. What is -- when we talk about travel, 20 now, is that -- is that mileage? Are there some hotel rooms 21 and meals and stuff like that involved in that? 22 MS. HARGIS: Yes. It's not just mileage; it's 23 usually reimbursement for the hotel, the food. Some people 24 have only one line item. They pay their conferences out of 25 one line item, and travel is the only other line item they 7-27-09 163 1 have, and that's what they pay for the accommodations and the 2 food. So, you can't -- it just depends. Some people have 3 more than one line item; some of them only have two. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Should be out-of-county 6 travel. 7 MS. HARGIS: Yes. Oh, we watch that. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- being as this is 9 public information, I'm going to use Ag Extension as an 10 example. They obviously use all of their travel -- 11 MS. HARGIS: They do. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- money, and now want more. 13 Do you think -- do you think that they will continue 14 traveling? Or will they stop for the year and realize that 15 they're going over budget? How does that work? Do you talk 16 to them, or do you counsel with them? Do you pull a gun on 17 them? 18 MS. HARGIS: No, sir, I don't pull a gun on them. 19 But based on our last Commissioners Court meeting -- and I 20 can't remember her name. 21 MS. HYDE: Laurinda. 22 MS. HARGIS: Laurinda said they were going to 23 another out-of-state meet with these kids because they're 24 winning, and so I'm assuming that perhaps because the kids 25 are winning the contests, they're going up, and they didn't 7-27-09 164 1 budget for all of that. They have a lot of travel. That's 2 -- as long as they have some money somewhere else, they have 3 to stop buying something else. When they reach the end, then 4 they're going to have to come here and ask, 'cause I'm not 5 giving them any more money. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly the right 7 answer, thank you. And there's a couple of those. I just 8 picked on the Ag Extension people 'cause they're not here. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: When you get a call from Mobile, 10 Alabama, saying, "We got no money to get home," what are you 11 going to tell them, Buster? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See you Christmas. 13 MS. HARGIS: Use your own credit card and get home. 14 We will probably have -- we're going to try to watch these 15 every two weeks all the way up to the end of the year. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we approve the budget 17 amendments as presented. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second, but I'm looking for 19 a total. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and second to 21 approve the budget amendments as presented. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If you can find a total 23 anywhere, Buster, I -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there a total here? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 7-27-09 165 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's not one. 2 MS. HARGIS: No, because they're different 3 departments. There's a total on each department, if you 4 want. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, on the very first one, 6 Maintenance Department, the total is 1,562? 7 MS. HARGIS: No, that's how much is left in there. 8 We didn't give a total. If you would like a total, we'll 9 give you a total of all the debits and credits. We did not 10 do that. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I was just wondering. 12 I think, you know, anybody in here from the public that's 13 interested in that kind of thing, how we spend their money, 14 should have the right to see it. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or comments on 16 the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 17 your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carried. Do you have any 22 late bills? 23 MS. HARGIS: No, sir. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Monthly reports. I've been 25 presented with monthly reports from District Clerk; Kerr 7-27-09 166 1 County Payroll Expenses, June 2009; Kerr County Treasurer, 2 June 2009; and Constable, Precinct 3. Do I hear a motion to 3 approve these reports as presented? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 7 approval of the named reports as presented. Questions or 8 discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion, 9 signify by raising your right hand. 10 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Reports 14 from Commissioners in their liaison or other designated 15 capacities. Commissioner Oehler? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think I'll just defer my 17 time to Commissioner Baldwin. He seems like he missed out 18 this morning. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll take it. The -- may I? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Surely, yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The Court Compliance office, 22 we are in the process -- I asked them to contact some other 23 court compliance offices around the state, as well as their 24 association, which is called CCAT. 25 MS. LYLE: GCAT. 7-27-09 167 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: GCAT. And they have done 2 that. And we've asked them to send us their policies so we 3 can kind of get an idea of how they do things. Some of 4 the -- some of the things that they are -- says is okay, 5 we're not going to -- we're not going to go there, because 6 there's -- there's -- I know there's got to be liability in 7 that thing somewhere. So, we're going to be very, very 8 careful with what -- but it's going to be a starting point. 9 We're going to get their rules and regulations in there and 10 get started on it, and we're going to sit down, draw it, and 11 the honorable County Attorney and I will sit down and work on 12 this thing and try to come up with something that's good for 13 all, and we'll run it across the County and District Clerk, 14 the County Court at Law Judge, which is really the father of 15 this whole thing, both District Judges, and anybody else that 16 really cares about it, and before we bring it into 17 Commissioners Court for adoption, and we'll make it as tight 18 as we possibly can. I don't know -- do you guys want to add 19 anything to all that? Basically, -- 20 MS. LYLE: No. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- that's what we're doing. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. No, sir. Thank you. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 7-27-09 168 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Couple things, Judge. 2 First, I mentioned during the dog discussion earlier we had 3 some park improvements in the works, some picnic tables. We 4 got a few bucks -- according to the Auditor, we have a few 5 dollars we didn't spend this year. Correct? And, trying to 6 make this a two-phase improvement plan, it would require a 7 few dollars in next year's budget, not a lot. Talking about 8 picnic tables, the precast concrete ones. And I've been 9 working with Mr. Bollier about costs, and we think we can 10 bring those in at about -- $1,000 a unit, Tim? 11 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Acquisition of a table and 13 benches and the pad and so forth. 14 MR. BOLLIER: And concrete slab, yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To work on the pads. We've 16 gone through the lower section of the park and spotted about 17 10 places we think those would be good, all nice shaded 18 places where people can enjoy picnics. The Court may 19 remember -- Bruce, you may not because you weren't on the 20 Court when we did it, but a few years back, there were a 21 whole bunch of benches that were in San Antonio that were the 22 property of VIA, and they were getting rid of those benches, 23 and the Court agreed we'd send a letter up there and pick up 24 a whole lot of those things. We have about 14 to 16 of 25 them -- 7-27-09 169 1 MR. BOLLIER: Eighteen total, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- out on the Road and 3 Bridge lot. A couple of them have deteriorated pretty badly, 4 but we're going to select the better ones. If you need a 5 couple at Ingram, tell us. And Tim's going to refurbish 6 them, paint them, make them in good shape, and spot them 7 around the park as well. And your park, if you -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How heavy are they? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Concrete? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A thousand pounds, maybe? 12 Less than that? There's three pieces, right? 13 MR. BOLLIER: The benches -- just the benches? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The bench and the two 15 pedestals. 16 MR. BOLLIER: I would say they're a good -- 17 probably going to weigh a good 500 pounds. I don't know 18 about 1,000. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: At Ingram, we got a bunch of 20 water that comes through there; there's not any place to put 21 them. We can get flooded. 22 MR. BOLLIER: I don't know how much they weigh. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If you got a problem, you 24 don't need them or want them. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just don't think they'd 7-27-09 170 1 stay there, but they might. I'd try one just to experiment. 2 Maybe that would encourage a flood. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Huh? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Maybe that would encourage a 5 flood. (Laughter.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Whatever works. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If that's what it -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If that works, we'll all 9 carry one out there. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If that's what it takes, 11 you can have all of them. So, we're going to be doing that. 12 I do want to talk a little bit about a couple of sewer 13 projects and bring the Court up to speed. On the Kerrville 14 South project, we're still having problems with easements on 15 the Ranchero Road side. The owner of Oak Grove Mobile Home 16 Park is taking his time. I guess communications from San 17 Clemente, California to Kerrville are kind of difficult these 18 days, and he's taking his time about getting it back to us 19 what he would think the value of three or four laterals 20 coming from the Ranchero properties through his property, 21 what that might be worth. So, we're working on that. 22 We're also working on how to acquire easements on 23 what will be the north side of that fence that separates Oak 24 Grove Mobile Home Park from the properties on Ranchero Road. 25 We've sent out certified letters to all the property owners 7-27-09 171 1 on Ranchero Road seeking some input in terms what their 2 thoughts are on this process. To date, I've had two phone 3 calls. There are eight properties. Judge, you remember we 4 sent them out, 'cause you signed them all. I haven't had a 5 great deal of response. We got an issue we're going to have 6 to try to resolve, and I don't want it to come to eminent 7 domain, but if it has to come to eminent domain, I'll come 8 back to the Court and we'll talk about what that's all about. 9 We need some surveying. That surveying's going to get under 10 way. We'll try to establish what we think is a reasonable 11 value for easements on the north side of Oak Grove Mobile 12 Home Park fence, so keep you posted on that. 13 In terms of Center Point, our Category A planning 14 is back on the T.W.D.B.'s desk for approval. It was sent 15 back to us with one issue that we had to address and get 16 under -- get some answers to it, and that had to do with 17 mobile home type dwellings. And T.W.D.B.'s raising the 18 question of how many of those are permanent and how many of 19 them have wheels and can go someplace else, and they don't 20 want to be spending money on those if they're here today and 21 gone tomorrow. So, we went back and we assessed the way to 22 do that. The acceptable way to do that, according to Water 23 Development people, was to take a look at the -- the 24 electrical meters, and they'll accept a permanent hookup as 25 being one having an electrical meter. Bottom line is, we 7-27-09 172 1 contacted Bandera Electric and KPUB, and the total number of 2 mobile home parcels that they are willing to accept has been 3 reduced down from 209 to 60, bringing the total of 4 EDAP-eligible households to 612, still a sizable number. The 5 total number of sewer-using parcels in the -- in the whole 6 project was 892. So, that information has gone back to Water 7 Development Board. We expect them to sign off. Work has 8 begun on the B section of the plan, and keep you posted. 9 That's about it. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Commissioner Letz? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just working on the ETJ. 14 That's about it. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: You got a meeting here in 20 16 minutes? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. And on Thursday -- not 18 Thursday, Wednesday at 3:30, I'll have a -- be over at 19 U.G.R.A. talking to them about regional water planning. The 20 board has requested a presentation. So, I may have to bow 21 out of the City/County meeting early if it runs long. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That might be a good thing. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: For whom? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Won't say. 7-27-09 173 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Judge, I got one thing that I 2 forgot. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that all you got, Jon? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm done. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Wednesday at 5:30, I'm 6 meeting with the residents on the Hoot Owl Hollow bridge 7 project, and Mike Coward's going to be there. We're going to 8 have a little -- a little meeting down by the bridge with all 9 the affected property owners there that actually have 10 property that punch the bridge. I'm not sure we're going to 11 have to acquire right-of-way, but -- and I do have a current 12 survey from Mr. Voelkel showing the bridge located on the 13 plat, so that we now know where the property lines are. And 14 all that seemed to be up in the air for years, but we finally 15 have that, so that's going on Wednesday. That's it. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. Elected officials? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just the jail status report. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: You got 15 seconds. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay -- 30. As of 1 o'clock 20 this afternoon, jail population was 104. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Wow. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Say it again? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 104. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, ho. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We have 22 that are sentenced 7-27-09 174 1 to serve county jail time out of that 104. We have 12 2 waiting to go to T.D.C. I have 9 with in excess of 100 days, 3 and everybody else is down to less than 100 days. The direct 4 file system is working fabulously, something I hope we all 5 stay committed to keep it going. I think Linda and everybody 6 is. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll give you all the time you want 8 in future meetings for reports like that. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Those reports I'll give you. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Especially when he talks 11 about reduction of staff. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Wrong. That will be a longer 13 meeting there, Bruce. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other elected official -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask him a question 17 real quick. The direct file program, is that -- is that 18 going to cause us to hire somebody later on? I mean, how are 19 we doing with our prosecutors and sitting judges and all 20 that? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I can't tell you with the 22 prosecutors, okay. What y'all did last Commissioners Court, 23 changing one of my part-times to a full-time, took care of my 24 part of it, and I think that person, once we really get them 25 going and trained, will also be able to help the D.A.'s 7-27-09 175 1 offices. Hopefully they can come over and maybe help and 2 learn some of Linda's. But right now, we just have to see, 3 you know, how it goes. I think with it occurring daily, 4 almost, that it won't really be too bad a backlog to have. 5 MS. UECKER: Well, I think y'all actually took care 6 of that with the prosecutors, 'cause wasn't the last 7 Assistant D.A. that you put on mostly for that purpose? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 9 MS. UECKER: And I think we're kind of finally all, 10 you know, on the same level. We're all working together and 11 we got it all going. Rusty and I agreed on some different 12 forms. And, I mean, we're -- it's more work for us, but not 13 enough that I think I can, you know, justify another person. 14 I don't want to do that. But it's -- I think it's working. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's all finally gelling. It 16 took most of this year, as you know, but it's all finally 17 starting to come together, and the jail and everybody's 18 learning each other's parts, and it's moving. 19 MS. UECKER: And we had to convince some folks 20 that, yeah, it's a good idea and, you know, let's just -- 21 let's try it and see. And I think they're -- they can see 22 now what the result is. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: From 180 to 190 to 104. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: At times, Buster, we were over 25 200, and we're at 104. 7-27-09 176 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's incredible. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I've got four other ones on 3 top of that that are still ours. But, like, three are at 4 North Texas State Hospital; one's in another county jail with 5 our charges that we're still waiting now that he's already 6 been sentenced. But, I mean, 104 in-house is -- that's been 7 -- that's fabulous. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Now that we've processed this 9 backlog, the system that is in place, you know, that took 10 care of that, is it going to have to remain as active as it 11 has been these last few months in order to maintain this type 12 of headway? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. I don't see that you 14 can -- you can slow it down. I think you're going to have to 15 continue it. 16 MS. UECKER: That's the key to it, is staying 17 ahead. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 19 MS. UECKER: It's like, you know, we go -- I send 20 two folks out to the jail every Friday morning. Judge 21 Sherrill is out there, and one of the special prosecutors 22 that y'all approved does all the cases, all the felonies, 23 regardless of what court it falls in. He takes care of a lot 24 of the stuff out there with those folks that are in custody, 25 every Friday morning. 7-27-09 177 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And if it got down to -- if 2 it got down to, like, the Judge would just hear one, y'all 3 still want to continue that, even if it's just one person 4 that comes in? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 7 MS. UECKER: I don't think that would ever get to 8 that, because -- depends on how many arrests were made, you 9 know, that week. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, the only other thing, to 11 change the subject just a little bit, Rex got our Attorney 12 General's opinion back on whether I can get rid of the old 13 DWI video room that we used to have to have, and they have 14 agreed that we can do that now. So, with some remodeling, 15 hopefully we can do it in the budget or whatever, one room 16 out there, we can set up a permanent room for your court 17 video teleconferencing where we can give the inmates the 18 privacy with the client-attorney privilege and that. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What I have -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Video teleconferencing. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So, I think that will also 22 speed up even more when we can give them that kind of access 23 to where they can have the privacy and have a designated 24 area. So, I think we're on the right track. I really -- you 25 know, not letting people out of jail that need to be out of 7-27-09 178 1 jail, but actually processing and getting through the court 2 system in a timely manner. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty, are you housing any 4 out-of-county or federal prisoners? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I'm not housing any 6 out-of-county except for some that we get once in a while 7 that are -- you know, just get arrested on the street. Now, 8 there has been some issues come up. I know Bandera's fixing 9 to open theirs if they can get the staffing for it. 10 Gillespie County is trying to contract with housing at least 11 20 or 30 over there, but Gillespie County may be in a dire 12 situation come this jail inspection. It's -- it's a 13 possibility that they could order that jail shut, and if they 14 do, then those officers that arrest people at night over 15 there are going to have to have some place to go. Now, I 16 have a contract; I just haven't been housing, but we may have 17 to try and -- I'd rather help our surrounding counties than I 18 would do anything else. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was just wondering, mainly 20 'cause I was just talking to the Judge Advocates the other 21 day, and is there still a market for that? Or -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I haven't heard much about it. 23 The one time right after I took office, I checked into 24 housing federal inmates, and I -- we were talking about 25 housing Texas federal inmates. I didn't want to house them 7-27-09 179 1 if -- the only problem I had is the U.S. Marshal's office, 2 part of our agreement back then was going to pay us, like, 3 $75 -- $50, $75 a day, but they wanted us to do all the 4 transporting back and forth to the federal courthouse in San 5 Antonio, and I couldn't do that, couldn't agree. I would 6 never -- I didn't have that kind of manpower, so our contract 7 with them never came through. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: They weren't going to reimburse you 9 any additional amount for transporting? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, it was all in that fee. 11 That was years ago. I just dropped it then and never ever 12 looked at it again. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is Bandera County going to be 14 the same cost we have, basically, or are they going to try 15 to -- 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I haven't asked them what 17 they're going to charge in Gillespie County. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't think he's made up 19 his mind. They haven't. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But we could get back into 21 housing out-of-county if this -- if this continues. I don't 22 want to do it immediately, 'cause I'm just not sure -- you 23 know, I'm comfortable that it's been going down. The direct 24 file system's working, but I'd really like to give it a 25 little bit more and really believe it before I take some 7-27-09 180 1 out-of-county inmates and start making us a little bit of 2 money, and then have to say no, get them back out. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very smart. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other elected officials? 5 Department heads? Kibitzers? Sweaters? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nobody cares. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Interlopers? (Laughter.) Guess 8 not. Here's your chance. We'll be adjourned. 9 (Commissioners Court was adjourned at 2:47 p.m.) 10 - - - - - - - - - - 11 12 13 STATE OF TEXAS | 14 COUNTY OF KERR | 15 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 16 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 17 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 18 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 19 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 31st day of July, 2009. 20 21 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 22 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 23 Certified Shorthand Reporter 24 25 7-27-09