1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Budget Workshop 10 Monday, August 31, 2009 11 10:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X August 31, 2009 2 PAGE 3 Review and discuss FY 2009-10 Budgets and fiscal, capital expenditure and personnel matters related 4 thereto for various County Departments 3 5 --- Adjourned 80 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, August 31, 2009, at 10:00 a.m., a budget 2 workshop meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was 3 held in the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 8 Let me call to order this Kerr County Commissioners Court 9 workshop scheduled and posted for this date and time, Monday, 10 August 31, 2009 at 10 a.m. It is that time now. The agenda 11 item calls for a review and discussion of fiscal year 2009-10 12 budgets and fiscal capital expenditure and personnel matters 13 related thereto for various county departments. Stated 14 another way, that gives us the option to discuss literally 15 anything that relates to budgetary issues. As I recall, 16 Commissioner Baldwin, you wanted to revisit the 198th 17 District Attorney budget? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do. As a matter of fact, 19 I have several things I'd like to visit. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Why don't we start with the 21 198th D.A., if that's okay? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm pretty shy about 23 it now. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here it is. Took me a 8-31-09 bwk 4 1 while to get it. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I apologize, I don't 3 have numbers in front of me, but let me try -- let me work 4 off memory here. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We had -- he had -- he had 7 requested a budget, and then he comes in here and takes some 8 of it out, and I can't remember the number. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's in there. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's in this thing here? 11 Takes some of it out, and then it appears to me -- then -- so 12 we all left here thinking that we're dealing with a number, 13 and then we get this letter here, and it appears to me that 14 he now is requesting that we put that -- put the money back 15 in, the -- the amount that he had taken out before. And I'm 16 kind of -- well, I'm not confused about it, but I'm -- I 17 wonder about it, just wonder about exactly what number are we 18 working off of and what are we dealing with? Do you know, 19 Judge? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, let me give you my best 21 understanding, Commissioner. We -- of course, we had the 22 sticker shock number. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: And then shortly before he appeared 25 here, we got a revised budget overview. 8-31-09 bwk 5 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: He did not classify it as a revised 3 budget request. And that had us paying 245,500, plus. And 4 while he was here with us, he said there were a couple of 5 items that he could modify, one of which was contract fees 6 dealing with appeals, which was a total of 10,000. He had 7 some others, total reductions of 26,700. And, based upon our 8 pro rata part of the budget, those reductions would bring our 9 portion to 230,511, which is exactly what is plugged into the 10 Administration Recommended -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: -- now. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He wants to go back to 245. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And in his letter, then, on 16 -- and, see, I agree with you, I think that's probably where 17 we're supposed to be. And his letter says, "I respectfully 18 submit that the proper thing for this Court to do is to fund 19 the 198th D.A.'s office adequately. $245,526.91 is a 20 reasonable and prudent expenditure that will yield returns to 21 the community and county perhaps greater than any other 22 investment you men could make." So, that sounds like to me 23 that we want -- he wants to go back to the 245. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure sounds to me like that. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Back on there. 8-31-09 bwk 6 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I was just -- I was 3 concerned about that. Now, do we -- what do we do? Do we go 4 back to the 245? Or -- I mean, it's his request. It's a 5 requested budget. Of course, you have the authority to whack 6 on it. And -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Well -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And so do we. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not sure I've even seen that 10 letter. What's the date of that? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I've not -- I don't recall having 13 seen this letter before. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's have Jody make 15 copies. He brought that letter in a few days after our court 16 meeting, and he came in to see me, essentially because he 17 wanted to correct my statistics, and he brought that letter. 18 I thought he delivered a copy to every member of the Court. 19 If not, we can certainly make copies of it. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He gave me one as well. Of 21 course, everybody's always trying to correct me. So, I guess 22 the same thing, that he -- Bill and I were probably more 23 vocal than anybody, so he was -- wanted to correct us. Do 24 you want to -- want us to get copies of it? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: She's be going to be making some 8-31-09 bwk 7 1 copies here. Bruce, why don't you let Jody make some copies 2 right quick so we've got those that we can look at? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I apologize. I thought 4 everybody had gotten that and knew what I was talking about. 5 So -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I thought we were at the 230 as a 7 result of some of the modifications that he made when he was 8 at the podium that day in here. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what the budget 10 shows. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: And you're exactly right. 12 Apparently, he's asking to revisit and go back to that 13 so-called revised overview, which would be 245,500, plus. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, my proposal today is 15 the same as it was the other day, and that's going exactly 16 the opposite direction that he's going. And the only way I 17 could see how to -- to do his particular budget is to take a 18 look at the history of it, and what I mean by that is, like, 19 I have taken the last five years of the budget and looked at 20 how -- the increases of it, and averaged that out. Took five 21 years of the budget, the increases of it, and averaged them 22 out, and I come out with a little over 8 percent increase. 23 So, in my mind, that's a safe place; that's a -- a nice offer 24 from this Commissioners Court, to -- to offer him, as opposed 25 to a 30 or 40 percent -- I don't remember what it was now, 8-31-09 bwk 8 1 but it was a large amount, what he's asking for. I just 2 don't get it, why we would want to spend all of our money in 3 that one department. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, Commissioner, what are 5 the numbers again? Can you give me just -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Which ones? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The average -- five-year 8 average, or a year's -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, the average is an 10 annual increase of 8.37 percent. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Over five -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Over five years. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 8.3. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 8.3. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And last year, it was? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Last year, it was 17 significant. It was double digits last year. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 30. 30 percent. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But what was the total amount? 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What was budgeted last year? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: 193,662. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 193,662? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. The current year's budget. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Went from 112 to 193. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That would bring it to 209,150, 8-31-09 bwk 9 1 roughly, an increase of 8 percent. Was it 8 percent even, or 2 was it 8 percent -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, 8 and a few nickels. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, your recommendation is to 6 go 8 percent over 193? The 193 -- 193,000 last year, an 7 8 percent increase to keep it in line? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, just stay -- stay in 9 line with what's been happening for five years. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What would that be, Judge? 11 You got your calculator? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, if it was 8 percent plus a 13 little bit, it's 209,150. Just round that to 210. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. And I just think 15 that that's a fair way to do it, and give him that amount of 16 money and don't get into the new D.A. here and the new 17 Chevrolet Suburban there and yellow pencils over there. Just 18 give him his money, let him run his department like everybody 19 else does. That's my proposal. And I don't know of any more 20 fair way to do it. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 210. That would be down 22 from 230; that's another 20. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- I guess a related 24 question. I mean, I think we -- we all know it; I guess most 25 of the public knows, that the reason for his -- in the past, 8-31-09 bwk 10 1 he's used his seizure fund to fund a good part -- or that 2 office, not just this particular D.A. -- the seizure fund to 3 do various things above and beyond, that were outside the 4 county budget. Did the 216th use the seizure fund for 5 anything similar to this at all? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not that I'm aware of. 7 MS. HARGIS: No. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Did they just not have a 10 seizure fund? Or -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Pretty small. They do have one, but 12 it's fairly small. 13 MS. HARGIS: Fairly small. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Maybe 60,000, tops. 15 MS. HARGIS: Oh, I think at one point it was, like, 16 150, and he paid some retirement out of there once, but in 17 the -- Tommy said the whole time he was here, he never used 18 it. It went dormant, in fact; we had to call the bank. So, 19 he's never used any of it. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bruce's fund went dormant. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I basically agree with 22 Commissioner -- your proposal. I think that the -- the 23 reason this inequity developed was because he started -- his 24 seizure fund ran out, or is running out, and now he wants the 25 county taxpayers or his overall district to pick up the 8-31-09 bwk 11 1 difference between what he was doing with the seizure fund 2 and what we're funding with the tax dollars. And I think 3 it's -- he ought to be able to run his office like any other 4 department. And I think the -- I do appreciate the fact that 5 he's trying to get rid of these swings, but he's getting rid 6 of the swings on the lower side rather than the higher side. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's really at 8 the base of it. I don't have a problem with the 9 Commissioner's formula. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I certainly don't. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else on that, 12 Commissioner Baldwin? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir, that was all I had 14 on that one. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you want me to just keep 17 going? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: If you got another issue, throw it 19 out there. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then I can just -- I'll 21 get through with mine and go back to sleep, and y'all can 22 do... I want to talk about the jail attorney that we -- that 23 we have that works for, basically, us. I understand that his 24 salary went from 25,000 to 50,000, and I'm a little bit 25 unclear whether -- is that his salary doubling, or is that -- 8-31-09 bwk 12 1 that extra 25 for another attorney? I hear out on the street 2 that the 216th D.A. had asked for another attorney, and that 3 may be part of that. I'm not real, real clear about that. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not aware that he's asked for 5 another attorney. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, this must be salary. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I think when we funded it, we funded 8 for just half a year. 9 MS. HARGIS: Well, we started in February, and so 10 we didn't fund for the whole year. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The 25,000? Is that what 13 we're referring to? And then -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Eight months. Eight 15 months? 16 MS. HARGIS: About. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know, you'd have to -- 18 I've been going out there on Fridays and watching the jail 19 docket and the judge, you know, run them through and how 20 they're doing all that, and it's kind of interesting. It's 21 kind of fun. I'm wondering -- I had visited with a couple 22 attorneys about this, and both have said, "Well, if you 23 give -- if you raise his salary to 50 grand, and he basically 24 works that couple of hours on Friday, I want some of it too." 25 We'll -- I want your jail attorney job, 'cause that's a 8-31-09 bwk 13 1 pretty good salary for three or four hours. I don't know how 2 long. I'm sure he does some front-end work, you know, 3 preparing for the Friday morning. But out -- while he's at 4 the jail, he's not out there but a couple hours. Oh, the 5 Sheriff's never here when we need him. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I'm here. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There you are. How long is 8 the attorney out there actually? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, first off, I thought 10 that that total budget for his salary and the defense 11 attorneys that are doing it and the judge and the court 12 reporter was the 50,000; that wasn't just his salary. Second 13 is, he does get -- spend a lot more than just those two 14 hours. He goes behind the scenes, getting reports so he can 15 make his offer to do whatever, and there's a lot of time 16 spent before that two or three hours in the courtroom. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. Thank you, Rusty. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: The way I read it, Commissioner, 19 it's 50,000 for the prosecutor. And the time that's spent 20 there on Friday that you've observed, I'm -- I feel 21 comfortable that that's not the only time he spends. 22 Obviously, -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, me too. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- there's discussions during the 25 week with -- with the -- with the defense lawyers that are 8-31-09 bwk 14 1 handling those cases, be they the ones that are designated on 2 a rotation basis or the ones that are -- are maybe retained, 3 possibly, I don't know, or even individually appointed, 4 because they're handling other cases -- they're appointed on 5 other cases for that same defendant. My -- my impression of 6 the 25,000 earlier was that that was just a portion of the 7 year. The -- the monthly is broken out at -- does that 8 include -- will that include roll-ups? 9 MS. HARGIS: He's not an employee. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: He's contract? 11 MS. HARGIS: He's contract. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Contract. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that under 216th, what 14 we're talking about? 15 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is right now. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's moving into that 18 separate -- into Commissioners Court, some separate fund. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a little over 4,100 -- 41 -- 20 a little over 4,150 a month. That's pretty decent income, 21 you're right. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know the number of hours 24 that he's actually -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And I know he spends 8-31-09 bwk 15 1 more than just what I see; I'm sure I understand that. I 2 think he deals with some pleas; he visits with those guys out 3 there and works through some issues. But it appears that -- 4 that we're doubling the salary, and I don't -- really don't 5 think you can say that he's doubled his work. Maybe some. I 6 don't know. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, based on a pro rata 8 appropriation, basically, if he got 25 for 8 months, you can 9 -- you may say 36 for 12 months. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And that's -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I mean, is that -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's kind of the 13 ballpark that my mind goes to. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But that -- but as Rusty 15 pointed out, you've got the expense of the Judge, and the -- 16 you've got the expense of the court reporter as well. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, they're both -- they're 18 separate. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Those are separate. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Those are separate line 21 items. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Those are separate. You got 23 8,000 for special judge and five for court reporter. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So that's just salary for 8-31-09 bwk 16 1 that -- that attorney. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The way it's presented on my 4 budget. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you know, I don't 6 necessarily have a specific number to put in, but it just 7 seems kind of -- seems -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, it's an experimental 9 type deal to see how -- we kind of did that in the middle of 10 the year, hoping it'd do what it's done. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: What is the monthly contract fee 12 we're paying? 13 MS. HARGIS: I think we're paying him 2,500 a month 14 right now. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 2,500? Is that what she 17 said? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That would be $30,000 a year. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do we have a contract with 20 him? 21 MS. HARGIS: We do have a contract with him. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Has he requested an increase? 23 MS. HARGIS: He requested an increase. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The footnote shows 50,000 25 request. 8-31-09 bwk 17 1 MS. HARGIS: Yeah, that's what he requested. So, 2 that's what -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there any justification? 4 MS. HARGIS: You know, I'm -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Other than he wants 50,000? 6 MS. HARGIS: I think you need to talk to Bruce 7 about that. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Give me 50. Why Bruce? 9 MS. HARGIS: Because he reports to Bruce, because 10 the contract's with Bruce's office. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, seems like it ought to 13 be 30. I mean, I don't know -- unless there's something 14 that's changed from when we started the program, I don't know 15 why you'd change it substantially. I mean, you know -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you change it because 17 there's more months, but I don't think the actual workload is 18 increased any. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I mean, the monthly -- 20 monthly rate -- 21 MS. HARGIS: I think workload's greater than he 22 anticipated when he took the job on. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I could say that about 24 this, too. (Laughter.) 25 MS. HARGIS: Well, but it's -- it is a new program. 8-31-09 bwk 18 1 I mean, I -- I don't have the justification, so I can't -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I mean, does -- I'm -- 3 I would tend to leave it where it is, or go with, you know, 4 30,000, something like that, rather than the 50. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the 25 -- the 6 original was 25,000 appropriation, right? 7 MS. HARGIS: Right, last year. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Last year for eight months. 9 And from that 25 came the attorney's salary, came the 10 district -- the judge and the court reporter? 11 MS. HARGIS: No. Just -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much were the add-ons 13 then? 14 MS. HARGIS: There weren't any add-ons. The 25,000 15 was just for the prosecutor. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Then where is the expense 17 noted for the judge and the court reporter? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Those are in the other budgets. 19 MS. HARGIS: We absorbed them in our regular line 20 items last year. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, 25 just for the 23 prosecutor attorney. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And he's requesting 50. So, 8-31-09 bwk 19 1 what would be -- if you added on -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thirty-seven and a half, 3 right? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- four months -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thirty-seven and a half for 6 a full year? 37,5? 7 MS. HARGIS: 2,500 is 30,000. I mean, I -- it's up 8 to the Court. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: If we were to increase him from 10 $2,500 a month, if the workload's increased, increase him to 11 3,000, that would run us up to 36,000. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: 3,000 a month, roughly. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I guess it's fair. I mean, 15 I -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: If the workload is -- is more than 17 he anticipated -- I don't know what he was anticipating, 18 though. I mean, it would be nice if we had Mr. Curry here, 19 who apparently submitted the request. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Well, I can -- I can 21 -- yeah, you're exactly right. Because I think 99 percent of 22 the work that he does there is for 216th. He does very, very 23 little for 198th. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that's correct. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, I just -- I can't see 8-31-09 bwk 20 1 how this workload thing has increased. I just don't see it. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think Rex is going to call. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Judge, can I just run 4 through these other things real quick? I mean, you can say 5 yes or no to these, and I'm -- and then -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, why does he get to say 7 yes or no? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Huh? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go ahead. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The fence at the Sheriff's 11 Office, did we -- did we put that thing in or out? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think it was going to go in 13 the capital stuff. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: First Responders. Did we 18 kick that up some? We had talked about doing it. 19 MS. HARGIS: Yes, we did. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We did? 21 MS. HARGIS: Yes. Eric brought in the numbers that 22 he wanted. Those are the numbers I got from Eric. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. And then the 24 age-old argument of a situation -- like, I remember a couple 25 years ago we had these big fires, and this bulldozer came 8-31-09 bwk 21 1 from Uvalde, and then asked us to help with some of their 2 expenses. And we offered somebody -- I can't remember how 3 all that worked, but we offered several people some help in 4 that. And I just -- I think that we need to address it and 5 to make it a budgeted item if we're going to do that. The 6 bulldozer came up from Uvalde to help us fight fire, and we 7 should at least pay for the fuel or something. You know, 8 there's always tires -- 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, we had some local 10 contractors that got involved, and we -- and the Sheriff had 11 requested them to come help, and that's whenever they 12 submitted some bills, and we paid them for the -- some of 13 their expenses. And I do agree, that can happen at any time. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can happen at any time, and 15 it needs to be a budgeted item. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, it needs to be -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As opposed to -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- someplace to pull from in 19 case it does happen. We hope it doesn't, but -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't recall where that got 21 charged. Did it come out of contingency, nondepartmental? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have any idea. 23 MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't know. We took it out 25 of some -- 8-31-09 bwk 22 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 2 MS. HARGIS: Yes, it is. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That's where it came from? 4 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you remember the amount, 7 Jeannie? 8 MS. HARGIS: No. No, I sure don't, because I think 9 there were three contractors involved. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Close to $11,000, if I 11 remember right. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I remember -- was it 13 Reichenau's in court? 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It was Reichenau and Hawkins, 15 and -- I think there were three contractors. 16 MS. HARGIS: There were three. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Can't remember the third one, 18 but it -- 19 MS. HARGIS: There was three. I remember that. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- it came from 21 nondepartmental. Why don't we put something in 22 nondepartmental for it? 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I know there were three. My 24 best recollection is around $11,000, is what we paid them. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: If we increase contingency, 8-31-09 bwk 23 1 nondepartmental $10,000 to $15,000, do you think that would 2 resolve that issue, Commissioner? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, I do. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But how do you earmark that 6 10,000, 15,000? 7 MS. HARGIS: We can put a note in there that the 8 15,000 goes to -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, yeah, that makes me 10 happy. I just think it needs to be done. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you're right, we need to -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we don't use it, okay. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Hopefully, we won't -- we won't have 14 the kind of fires that necessitate that. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's it. Thank you. 16 Thank you for your time. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: You run out of rope there? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I did. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, good. Anybody else want to 20 jump in at this point? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, one -- 'cause I know 22 someone's in the audience; I see the Airport Board president 23 back there. Steve, do we have a closer -- a better idea on 24 the capital items at the airport? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't want you to have to stay 8-31-09 bwk 24 1 here all day. 2 MR. KING: No, I appreciate that. I have other 3 things to do. Jonathan, we -- you know, you came to our 4 meeting two weeks ago or two and a half weeks ago and 5 requested we kind of come up with a big capital -- a C.I.P. 6 number that we could give you guys. The water line, I think 7 we pretty much know the number on that. I believe it's -- I 8 didn't bring it with me -- seven -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 700-something. 10 MR. KING: 700-something. I think that's a pretty 11 firm number, and I think that's -- obviously, that's a 12 project that's number one on our priorities. It's going to 13 have to be funded. I think that's actually moved up in our 14 C.I.P. now, isn't it? I believe it is, and it's -- that's a 15 project that we anticipate moving on as soon as there is 16 funding. The other -- the other projects we looked at, 17 obviously, it's hard for us to look at it as a group when 18 we're not in a meeting, since we -- since we're in violation 19 of laws, but Bruce has looked at it and then contacted us 20 individually and visited with us individually about it. The 21 T-hangar project seems to be the only project that we can 22 really come up with at this time. And -- because the other 23 projects are going to require an engineer and TexDOT's 24 approval, and we just run into a ton of issues on -- on who's 25 going to pay for that, if they're going to pay for any of it, 8-31-09 bwk 25 1 if it's even -- if some of those are even proper, whether we 2 can even -- some of them violate some rules as far as 3 grading, going up hills and stuff, and we're not even sure 4 how we're going to get around that. 5 So, we -- we pretty much -- to try to come up with 6 something, we focused on the T-hangar project, because I had 7 Bruce look at the T-hangar project and confirm with all the 8 people on the waiting list if they were really, really on the 9 waiting list still. All 18 -- we had 18 people that 10 confirmed that they would rent tomorrow a T-hangar. There 11 was approximately three or four others that indicated they 12 don't want to get on the T-hangar list because they don't 13 think anything's ever going to happen, but they would like 14 to. They would be interested in getting a hangar, but 15 they're really not interested in putting their name on 16 something that's not -- that other people have been on there 17 for four or five years. And so we went forward, and I told 18 Bruce -- I rode around with Bruce at the airport for about 45 19 minutes one day and we looked at the whole airport, and we 20 decided that the property on the other side of Mooney, on the 21 other side of the runway, there's an area over there that we 22 -- during the first phase of the drainage project, we filled 23 in a bunch of land there, and we -- we graded some land, some 24 -- filled some fill and did some flattening some of that 25 land. 8-31-09 bwk 26 1 We looked at the rest of that land, and we decided 2 that's probably an excellent place to build these T-hangars, 3 because there is access through the Peterson Farm Road that 4 goes around by Mooney, a great access there. We determined 5 that those people are not really involved -- if you -- when 6 build those T-hangars, it doesn't require terminal access. 7 We've talked about they never come over to the terminal, the 8 ones -- the 16 we already have. So, we've kind of decided -- 9 or we proposed, or let's say we planned. I hate to say 10 proposed, 'cause when I say "proposed," I get in trouble. We 11 planned to possibly use that land for T-hangars. And Bruce 12 and I looked at the possibility of building 24, 27 hangars 13 over there. 14 We -- in the meantime, I had another board member 15 go over there and look at it. He -- his -- and this is why 16 I'm really not able to give you guys a number right now, 17 because we still have some -- there's a lot of stuff still 18 floating around here. One of our other members has 19 proposed -- or planned to talk to the Phase II contractor, 20 whoever gets the bid, about moving this fill dirt that 21 they're going to move out of the -- moving the dirt out of 22 the Phase II project, move some of that fill dirt over to 23 that side of the airport, and using that fill dirt to level a 24 huge area over there that is sloped off in the back, and 25 basically building a pad site for a lot -- a lot of 8-31-09 bwk 27 1 T-hangars. A lot of hangars -- or T-hangars, up to 96 or 2 100, possibly. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you talking about the 4 east side of the north-south runway, or the west side? 5 MR. KING: West side. The part adjacent to Mooney, 6 right adjacent to Mooney. We have -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Paint shop. 8 MR. KING: We have water there, we have electricity 9 there, we have -- after the fire project is finished, we'll 10 have everything we need over there, and we have great access 11 there. The road is really nice. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kind of going north from 13 Mooney, up to the north. 14 MR. KING: Exactly. We have all this land to the 15 end of the runway there. And so, in the meantime, we talked 16 to B.W.R., our engineer/contractor for the Phase II project; 17 we put in a call to them after we talked to TexDOT. We 18 cleared it with TexDOT; we talked to TexDOT about it. They 19 are actually out at the airport. They looked at it, and they 20 said that looks fine. You could have some environmental 21 issues as far as drainage into Silver Creek or something. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Silver Creek? 23 MR. KING: Silver Creek. Into Silver Creek, so be 24 very careful about how far you go back and -- and fill in 25 there. So, we called B.W.R. -- B.W.R. engineering firm. 8-31-09 bwk 28 1 They sent a representative out of San Antonio up here last 2 week, and they looked at the thing and then wrote us a letter 3 back on it stating that this was a viable area and a -- and 4 would be a good use of the land. And there were some 5 environmental issues that they thought that we should look at 6 as far as filling that in. And then Fred Vogt, one of our 7 members, he wrote a letter saying that we had some -- we 8 should get a permit or something. We should possibly look at 9 that. So, we're going to move forward, I think, at our next 10 meeting with that. 11 Still, in answer to your question, if we build 24 12 T-hangars, I think we're looking at about 650 to $700,000. 13 Somewhere 650 to 700; it's an eight-year payout if you do a 14 rough R.O.I., 93 percent return on -- 93 percent occupancy, 15 which we -- we've maintained 100 percent occupancy in those 16 T-hangars for several years. So, I think it's -- I think -- 17 I talked to the T-hangar people this morning out of Alabama 18 who just built 93 -- 92 of them over in Sugarland. Sugarland 19 just built 92 at one time. And I think what we're going to 20 do is fly over there, take a look at their project, and see 21 -- talk to their Airport Manager and find out what it costs, 22 get some costs off them. And they went a little -- theirs is 23 a little more upscale than ours would be, probably. But get 24 some exact -- some costs from them, 'cause they were all 25 built in the last 30 days, and this is the same T-hangar guy 8-31-09 bwk 29 1 we're talking to. So, hopefully, in answer to your question, 2 the water project will be about 700-something thousand. This 3 project here would be probably at a base of about 650,000 to 4 700,000, depending on -- my preference would be to build 24 5 or 27 T-hangars, and then have the property leveled and the 6 site work done so that if you had the need, you could 7 continue to build, and we wouldn't have to go through the 8 dirt work -- as much dirt work to get it done. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then the other item is 10 150,000 for the update of the -- 11 MR. KING: The master plan. Yeah, master plan. 12 We're -- I'm going to a meeting tomorrow over in Austin. 13 Bruce and Fred and I are going to go to Austin and meet with 14 TexDOT on that master plan, and they're going to go over a 15 bunch of that stuff. That's exactly what we need, what we're 16 really looking for. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Steve, do you actually see 18 the T-hangar being a viable project in this upcoming budget 19 year with everything you got on your plate out there? 20 MR. KING: You know, Bill, I don't -- or, 21 Commissioner, I don't know that -- I mean, the water -- the 22 water -- the water issue is holding us back, obviously. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 24 MR. KING: Until we get the water issue solved. 25 And, I mean, obviously, if we can fund that this year and get 8-31-09 bwk 30 1 that started, we have -- you know, we have drawings -- 2 drawings on that project, preliminary drawings. Now, we've 3 paid for the engineering, 75,000 in engineering on that 4 project. And so, you know, they're going to continue to -- I 5 think we made some changes last -- at the last meeting. I 6 think the last meeting, we went -- we told them what -- A, B, 7 or C, which way we wanted to go on the project, and I think 8 they're going to come back with some other stuff at our next 9 meeting. So, I don't know. I don't know if it would get 10 done. If it did, it would be at the end of the -- at the end 11 of the budget. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, I think the -- 13 from our standpoint, we're looking at a two-year funding 14 mechanism. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're looking at two-year 16 funding. Then I'm -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. We're doing -- I mean, 18 if we don't do it -- fund it this year, it isn't happening 19 next year. 20 MR. KING: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, that's okay. We're in 22 a two-year plan. That's okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, capital -- the capital 24 proposal. 25 MR. KING: I think what it comes down to, they're 8-31-09 bwk 31 1 just going to get a little more time to get some exact 2 numbers on this thing. Unless you want to just throw -- I 3 mean, I was really reluctant to throw out a -- to throw out a 4 number. I mean, I've already done that today, thrown out a 5 seven -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Looks like we had plugged in 7 850,000. 8 MR. KING: For the -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For the airport. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Capital projects, our 11 share. 12 MR. KING: Your share. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's our share. And it's -- 14 it appears to me that it's not real far off. It's probably 15 down to 800,000. 16 MR. KING: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 700,000 for T-hangars, 75,000 18 for the -- or 150,000 for the master plan, and then 750,000 19 for the water line. 20 MR. KING: Probably not far off, I would say. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Cut those in half, and you come 22 up with 800,000. And we plugged in 850, so we can either 23 leave it 850 to give a little cushion room, or -- 24 MR. KING: Right. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We just don't know how some of 8-31-09 bwk 32 1 those projects are going to pan out. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Why would it be -- why 3 wouldn't it be a better deal to go ahead and get the 4 T-hangars if you knew you were going to get funding? Get 5 your planning done, and is there any rule that says you can't 6 be building on them while you're upgrading -- 7 MR. KING: No, we can. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- at the same time? 9 MR. KING: No. Commissioner, I don't -- 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, it just seems to me 11 like this -- this whole thing out here is just -- it's taking 12 too much time -- 13 MR. KING: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- to get it done. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, a lot's going to 16 depend on moving that dirt from the project over there. 17 MR. KING: Right. And what they're doing now is -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There ought to be a credit. 19 MR. KING: What the recommendation is, is to let 20 the bidding on the second -- in fact, the other -- we're 21 getting ready to let -- we had a bid meeting, already had the 22 bid meeting, and those bids will be let in the very near 23 future. And as soon as the contractor is picked, then what 24 TexDOT and B.W.R. wants to do is they want to get with that 25 contractor and let them know what is going to be happening 8-31-09 bwk 33 1 with that -- some of that fill dirt. It's going to have to 2 be moved across there; then they're going to make, I believe, 3 it a line item. They're going to do a line item increase in 4 his bid to pay for moving that dirt over to the project. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'd negotiate that down to 6 where that would be a wash, because they're going to have to 7 get rid of it somewhere. 8 MR. KING: Exactly. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And this is right there. 10 They'll be able to -- 11 MR. KING: So I -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- dispose of it at no cost 13 to them. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But their main -- they were 15 going to pile it up; it was going to be disposed of on-site 16 either way, but in a big pile, as opposed to -- 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Really no time to haul it. 18 MR. KING: They've been really helpful on this 19 project in getting -- we're getting ready to concrete that 20 area on the taxiway there. That's a hundred -- $100,000, 21 just getting ready to be concreted. That's coming out of the 22 original project. Now, that's all -- nobody's coming up with 23 that money except TexDOT, so they've been very helpful with 24 this in finding ways to make -- they've rolled it into -- 25 they always want to roll it into it. And I think what it is, 8-31-09 bwk 34 1 they have excess at the end. There's excess money at the 2 end, and they just tack it on. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I agree with 4 Commissioner Oehler that, you know, assuming the City can 5 come up with their half of this these projects, do them all 6 at once. I mean, I don't see any reason, if it's -- once 7 it's funded from our standpoint and their standpoint. 8 MR. KING: Sure. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would do them both 10 simultaneously, 'cause that'll just accelerate the revenue. 11 MR. KING: And that is our plan, is to move -- 12 we're going to continue to move forward with the T-hangar 13 project, and -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 15 MR. KING: -- try to get this fill dirt. We're 16 trying to cut the cost down on it so it's economical. That's 17 the main thing. It's not economical -- it's a -- boy, it's 18 just a stretch to get to it be, you know, within a good 19 return on investment for the City and the County to do. You 20 can imagine what it's like for an individual to do with 21 paying taxes and stuff. And so it's -- we're trying to get 22 the costs down as low as we can and get the most bang for our 23 buck and still serve the tenants. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. King, would it be a requirement 25 that the fire flow lines are in place and operational before 8-31-09 bwk 35 1 the T-hangars could be occupied? 2 MR. KING: I believe it is. I mean, I'm not -- I 3 don't know. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a little bit different. 5 That side, there's a 12-inch line over to Mooney. 6 MR. KING: We do have a 12-inch line. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So there will be a minor 8 extension of that line, well below the -- the total cost of 9 it. 10 MR. KING: Right. That's good, 'cause we do have a 11 12-inch line over there. And -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is another reason to do 13 it where it is; we already got water there. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 15 MR. KING: I'm hopeful -- I agree with Commissioner 16 Oehler. You know, if we can -- if we can get the City to 17 come up with their share of the funding on these projects, 18 and -- and I had discussions with several of the 19 Commissioners about there's some other agreements that have 20 to be made in this water -- in this water issue. And, 21 obviously, I think there's some issues have got to be -- 22 some -- some things that have to be hammered out in the 23 T-hangars. Who's getting the revenue for these T-hangars? 24 Where are they going? Where's money going for -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Airport. 8-31-09 bwk 36 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Airport Board. 2 MR. KING: That's what I would hope. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Supposed to be in your 4 budget. 5 MR. KING: Well, that's half of it right there. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. King, we appreciate your service 7 and your leadership. 8 MR. KING: Appreciate it. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And we recognize how much time and 10 effort you're putting in on this. And, of course, you're 11 receiving these -- that wonderful compensation that we 12 provide for. We appreciate your efforts. 13 MR. KING: I was going to put in for that 50,000. 14 (Laughter.) 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Steve. 16 MR. KING: Thanks. See y'all later. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: You got anything else, Commissioner? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the other thing, I mean, 21 is the salary issue. You want to talk about that now? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Got to talk about it sometime, don't 23 we? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. We got a handout on it, 25 whatever you want to call it. I think that it is -- or if at 8-31-09 bwk 37 1 all possible, we should do a 2 percent increase. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- I know we gave some 4 large increases last year. That also got us caught up with 5 some other things we're trying to do. I hate to see us get 6 further behind. That's, I mean, one issue. And the other 7 issue is, I think it is -- even though the funds come from 8 different sources from our standpoint, it's kind of difficult 9 to be talking about some major capital projects and doing 10 some things that -- that are good for the county that we need 11 to do long-term, and at the same time, not looking after our 12 employees some. I think it's kind of a -- difficult for me 13 to justify that in my head. So, I mean, I would be in favor 14 of that, a 2 percent increase, you know, if we can do it with 15 no increase in tax or anything like that. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I asked the Auditor 17 to prepare this handout for the Court, and as you can see, 18 the 2 percent with the various rollups comes to a quarter of 19 a million, 251,872. And that's based on the payroll with the 20 additional employees, I believe, that are scheduled to go 21 into the mix in the next budget year. Is that correct, 22 Ms. Hargis? 23 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 25 MS. HARGIS: Probably a little bit on the high 8-31-09 bwk 38 1 side, because we only pay a percentage of those other 2 offices. But -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the other thing that I 4 think that's not going into place this year, but I think that 5 -- possibly go in place in future years, I'd like to look at 6 the longevity, extending the longevity to possibly a 7 four-year cycle, as opposed to a three-year cycle. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But that's not for this 9 year? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not for this year. I don't 11 think it's right to change it at this point. But I think 12 that, going forward, we're looking at some very lean years 13 coming up, and I think that it's -- that, you know, the 14 longevity increases that we've built in, I think, have helped 15 a lot. Helped with our retention, which is certainly saving 16 us money, but at the same time, it's also increasing our 17 payroll a pretty large amount. But that's really not a 18 budget issue this year, but something I want to put on the 19 table for the 2010-2011. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hargis, do we have a number that 21 is occasioned by just the longevity increases for this coming 22 budget year? Just -- just that one factor alone? 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 MS. HARGIS: No. They're rolled up. 25 MS. HYDE: They're all rolled up. They're rolled 8-31-09 bwk 39 1 up into that sheet I gave y'all. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 3 MS. HYDE: And education. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Which was around 450,000 total, as I 5 recall. 6 MS. HYDE: 479. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you could anticipate 9 that that's going to be pretty uniform every year. I mean, 10 we've had it long enough -- no? It doesn't? 11 MS. HYDE: The way that the longevity impacts us 12 is, because it is on a three-year cycle, we started in the 13 year 2000, so 2001 was a heavy hitter. The S.O. did half of 14 theirs in one year and half in another. So, we get it on two 15 years, and then the third year, like last year, it's almost 16 next to nothing. It's the last two years, and in the 17 three-year cycle, so 2003-2004, and then you had three every 18 time. Does that make sense? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Makes sense. But -- 20 MS. HYDE: Last year and this year. Last year and 21 this year -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are big years? 23 MS. HYDE: -- are big years. Next budget year, 24 2010-2011, will be significantly less. It worked out very 25 different. 8-31-09 bwk 40 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Because of the three-year cycle that 2 it's on. 3 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But for our purposes, the 6 rollups, which include what you're talking about, are in 7 these numbers that Ms. Hargis gave? 8 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's real hard for me to go 10 along with that. I'm sure that's a surprise to everybody in 11 this room. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm shocked. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But, you know, I'm looking 14 across the state of Texas, and I'm hearing -- I'm hearing the 15 pretty bad horror stories about other counties being in bad 16 financial shape. And we just got hit again with another -- 17 another thing that's going to take away from our revenue. 18 And whether you love it or hate it, it's a fact, and that is 19 the veterans' benefit that's going to hit us a little harder, 20 I think, than we're expecting. And it may be to just about 21 the tune of what this 2 percent raise would be. We have not 22 planned for that. By doing this, we will not have planned 23 for that decrease in revenue. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought we had some 25 estimates of cost on that. 8-31-09 bwk 41 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It was just -- in a few days, 2 it hit us for 45,000, and we're not near done with that yet. 3 There's some thought that it might be as much as 300,000 this 4 year. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Bolin, do we have an updated 6 number, or is the 45 that you've got -- 7 MS. BOLIN: The 45 -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the most current number we have? 9 MS. BOLIN: -- 45 is the most current that I have, 10 but they are expecting a substantial increase. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They are expecting a 12 substantial -- 13 MS. BOLIN: They are expecting more veterans to 14 come in, probably when tax statements go out. They'll -- 15 that's when exemptions usually click with people. And 16 they'll -- they're expecting an influx during October and 17 November. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I would rather see us put a 19 little bit of money in reserve for a change. And there have 20 been some substantial raises given over the last two years, 21 and the cost-of-living index is -- is down. So, actually, 22 we're -- we're ahead in pay compared to what we were last 23 year, if you used the -- that figure, which is not -- it's a 24 minus number rather than a plus number. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's negative right now. 8-31-09 bwk 42 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: For now. It may go back up, 2 and it probably will. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But, you know, I've -- 5 there's a lot of people that I talk to that say, you know, 6 it's just -- I just can't imagine anybody proposing a tax 7 increase or a -- a raise increase, even if you don't have to 8 increase taxes for anybody. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We would not be proposing a 10 tax increase. It's within our existing -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Providing your revenues come 12 in as projected. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly. That's always the 14 case. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And we were real fortunate 16 this past year to have some things that -- that made it able 17 for a tax increase not to happen, be steady, the same rates 18 we had last year. But I just see a lot of people hurting. I 19 think the real estate market is going to get worse, and when 20 that happens, our values level or decline. Hopefully that 21 won't happen, but if it does, I know of one particular county 22 that is $2 million short, and they're going to have to start 23 cutting employees. It's one of the regular old counties. 24 And Gillespie County, I believe, had to increase their rate 25 to the rollback or better this year. 8-31-09 bwk 43 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Increased. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And so, you know, we're very 3 fortunate, but I don't think we ought to -- we ought to 4 approve raises this year. We didn't have not one person that 5 came in here and asked for a raise. Not one department head 6 or anybody requested that, and so I'm going to go with -- 7 with that. I can't go for any kind of a raise this year. 8 I'm hoping we'll be able to keep employees and not have to 9 let some go in the future if our revenues decline. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, this fits within what 11 we know to be the budget right now. The question is, is this 12 a number that we would -- or a majority of the Court is 13 comfortable with, or is it something less, or what? You can 14 do the math; you can see what it equates to. 125 is 1 15 percent. 250 is 2 percent. So, if you were at 1 and a half, 16 for example, you'd be at about 180, 190, something like that. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I agree with Bruce on 18 some of it. You know, I see that if -- you know, this -- 19 some of these other issues that affect our budget, if it puts 20 us to a point where we're even thinking about having to 21 increase the taxes to do these things, I'm -- I can't do 22 that. I'm with Bruce on that issue. But I also -- you know, 23 we gave a nice raise last year, and those employees that -- 24 you know, I'll just say it -- dealing with the food stamp 25 issue are not -- are not having to do that any longer, and we 8-31-09 bwk 44 1 want to stay that way. But if -- you know, if the thing 2 hurts us to the point to where we're getting -- getting in 3 trouble, getting out there and getting in financial trouble, 4 I don't want to do it. We're just all going to have to learn 5 how to tighten our belt. And -- and I saw where the City of 6 Ingram, they dealt with their problem; they laid off some 7 folks. You know, so -- and, of course, that's how you do it, 8 but I don't know that we have that problem yet. You know, I 9 want to see the numbers fine-tuned and run again, and -- 10 and -- but, you know, if -- if it's what I'm seeing it is, 11 I'm certainly in favor of a 2 percent increase. If it's what 12 I -- 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Would that include everybody, 14 department heads and elected officials too? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know if we can talk 16 about that. 17 MS. HARGIS: It includes everyone. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What, Ms. Hargis? 19 MS. HARGIS: The total that I have includes 20 everyone. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If it's a COLA, a 22 cost-of-living adjustment, it -- it costs the elected 23 officials to go to H.E.B. just like it does a secretary. So, 24 a COLA's a COLA, and everybody should get it. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's always been my 8-31-09 bwk 45 1 position, whatever we do. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Seems like we had this 3 argument last year. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Same thing, just a different 5 year. But I'm telling you, we're facing a whole different 6 set of -- set of problems going into the -- the next year, I 7 believe, than what we faced the past year. And I would 8 sure -- and I fully anticipate next year having to raise 9 taxes enough to cover the loss of revenue from some of the 10 stuff that the state Legislature passed on to us, as well as 11 some other things that are coming down from the federal 12 government. But I don't have any -- any doubt that there'll 13 have to be some rate increases next year, especially if we 14 don't get our tax base numbers up like they have been going 15 in the appraisals, up the way they've done for the last good 16 many years. If that levels off, guys, we're in trouble. 17 I've seen it before, and I hope it doesn't happen, 'cause 18 it's hard on everybody. Really hard on employees. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In your discussions with 20 the Appraisal District, Ms. Bolin, -- 21 MS. BOLIN: Mm-hmm? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- do they have any -- any 23 feel for -- they should have a feel for the number that 24 applies thus far, but do they have a feel for what that 25 represents in terms of the whole body of eligibles? 8-31-09 bwk 46 1 MS. BOLIN: They have not given me that. I've 2 asked for additional information, but I had not gotten it as 3 of this morning. I've asked them what they think their -- 4 their projection is. And when I spoke to Fourth about it -- 5 Fourth Coates, the Chief Appraiser -- he said that he 6 believes that we're just looking at the -- the outer scope of 7 the issue, because the Legislature also changed the 8 definition of the disabilities to where -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: From what to what? 10 MS. BOLIN: -- to where more people are going to 11 qualify for the higher disability. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's V.A. disability. 13 MS. BOLIN: Yes. It's not Social Security; it's 14 strictly V.A. And those -- those qualifications have all 15 changed. And you're looking also at the veterans as they go 16 through life, and I have one in my office that didn't have a 17 V.A. disability, and now he's up to almost 70 percent because 18 of post-traumatic stress disorder and the things dealing with 19 the areas that he was in and issues like that, so you're 20 looking at people that are coming into the 100 percent 21 category. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But the law -- the law as 23 we know it is -- enables or makes you eligible if you're 100 24 percent disabled. 25 MS. BOLIN: Right. 8-31-09 bwk 47 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or partially? 2 MS. BOLIN: 100 percent disabled or 100 percent 3 unable to work. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, like, I didn't realize -- 6 I wasn't -- how you classify, 'cause I know the V.A., you can 7 be a relatively -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Healthy. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- appear functioning person, 10 and I'm thinking about General Bacon, who comes to -- I think 11 he's 100 percent disabled, even though he -- I mean, you 12 would not think he was disabled at all. But he had hearing 13 loss and -- 14 MS. BOLIN: We had a gentleman come into the office 15 who qualified for the 100 percent disabled, and looking at 16 that man and talking to him, you would never know there was a 17 thing wrong. But he has a post-traumatic stress disorder, so 18 they deemed him 100 percent unable to work, which qualifies 19 him for this exemption. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That sounds like you and I, 21 Bill. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, it does. What'd you 23 say? (Laughter.) 24 MS. BOLIN: And that's going to be the problem that 25 we have, is because it's not going to be the ones you see in 8-31-09 bwk 48 1 the wheelchair, necessarily. It's going to be however the 2 V.A. determines it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the loss of revenue 4 that has taken place thus far, Ms. Hargis, has been -- 5 MS. HARGIS: She has the number. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- accounted for -- or, 7 Diane, it's been accounted for in our current revenue stream? 8 MS. BOLIN: I've let Ms. Hargis know, so I'm 9 assuming that it has. 10 MS. HARGIS: I didn't take the 100 percent. I 11 already had 77,000 that I had not accounted for, so right 12 now, we're okay. If we go up any higher, I'm going to have 13 to -- I'm going to have to change the numbers. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it sounds like it's a 15 pretty safe assumption we're going to go higher. Is that 16 right, Diane? 17 MS. BOLIN: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, to me, we have the 19 numbers now. I don't know that we have to make a decision on 20 that today. I would leave it out at the present time and 21 just look and see -- but if we can just keep a -- I don't 22 know, us aware as to what our bottom line is and how much, 23 you know, based on our projections and our tax rate that 24 we've set, how that balances out, and we can look at it -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 8-31-09 bwk 49 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- down the road. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Look at the revenue side, 3 what you're talking about? Or the expense side? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bottom line, both. 'Cause we 5 changed the -- continue to upgrade the revenue side, continue 6 to upgrade -- update the expenditure side, and see where we 7 are in a couple weeks. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, in a couple weeks. 9 Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. And if we're 11 on the edge, we can't do it. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we're on the edge, it's 13 something I'd like to be able to do, but I recognize -- I 14 agree with Bruce. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I do too, but I just don't 16 see, in today's economy, that we should. 17 MS. BOLIN: Can I make a statement, please? If 18 y'all change your proposed budget -- or, I'm sorry, your 19 proposed tax rate and it goes up to the effective amount that 20 was calculated, then we have to go through the two hearings. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not changing the tax 22 rate. 23 MS. BOLIN: Okay. Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not changing the tax 25 rate. 8-31-09 bwk 50 1 MS. BOLIN: Okay, thank you. I don't want to start 2 over. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This whole discussion is to 4 avoid that. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Straw poll, but I think Commissioner 6 Letz gave you some accurate information. 7 MS. BOLIN: Good. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other particular department 9 budgets that we need to address -- 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just have one -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: -- at this point? 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just have one short 13 question. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And it's for the Auditor. I 16 want to know if she's happy with her proposed budget as it's 17 been approved or recommended. 18 MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir. Why? 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Are you not happy with what 20 you've been given for this year's budget? 21 MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir, I have no complaints. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're not intending on going 23 upstairs and getting any approval for any other employees or 24 salary increase or anything? 25 MS. HARGIS: No, sir. 8-31-09 bwk 51 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're not going to do that? 2 Thank you. That happened last year. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other departments that we need 4 to look at specifically? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're getting ready to go to 6 the capital. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that's where we're going to 8 end up. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Capital. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we are to capital. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Before you get there, I see -- 12 I saw the 198th D.A. in the back. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: He was here, but I thought I saw him 14 leave. He snuck back in on us, okay. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I don't know -- I don't 16 think he was here and heard the recommendation that we went 17 with. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Probably ought to tell him. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably be a good idea. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ask him if he knows. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somebody's told him in the 22 hall. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe he's clairvoyant. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Barton, are you aware of some 25 earlier discussions we had this morning relative to your 8-31-09 bwk 52 1 budget? 2 MR. BARTON: My understanding from looking at the 3 web site is that there was a tentative recommendation for 4 230. I understand this morning that we've deviated from 5 that. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: The suggestion that was made is that 7 the number being worked on now is 210. 8 MR. BARTON: I understand. I understand what 9 Commissioner Oehler has hit on real well, that we're facing 10 some tough economic times. This -- this new number may 11 require additional cuts in my office that we hadn't 12 anticipated. We're really down to a bare-bones operation. 13 I -- my commitment is that we're going to continue to provide 14 the same level of services, but I just want to encourage you 15 guys not to gut-shoot the D.A.'s office. We're -- we're -- I 16 tendered a memo to two of our commissioners reflecting the 17 benefits that have gone to the county since my taking office 18 in January, and I think one of the things I would ask this 19 respective Court to consider is the term that we've heard 20 some other people talk about, your return on your investment. 21 Sometimes we've got to put our money where it gets us the 22 most benefit. And I appreciate the efforts that the Court 23 has made to fund the budget as we've requested. We certainly 24 have made some major cuts in our office. Some additional 25 cuts may be necessary. 8-31-09 bwk 53 1 We have worked in conjunction with some other 2 elected officials, and I understand from reading the paper 3 that you may see revenue increase next year because of 4 programs that the other District Attorney and the Sheriff's 5 Office have put into place to reduce the jail population. 6 That's another benefit directly to the county that comes from 7 policies and programs that we've implemented. You've seen 8 dramatic increases in fees assessed and fines assessed, and 9 restitution assessed on behalf of citizens of your community. 10 You've seen monumental decreases in Court-appointed attorneys 11 costs due to the new programs that your elected officials 12 have put into place. Because of that, I'd ask that you just 13 consider that return on your investment. All business of 14 getting bad guys aside, consider that return on your 15 investment. What -- what are your department heads doing for 16 the money that you've giving them? And I would respectfully 17 submit that the 198th D.A.'s office and all of its employees 18 have been pretty good stewards with the funds you've given 19 us. And, given the opportunity, if you fund our budget -- 20 regardless of what you do, we're going to -- we're going to 21 keep making a hand for you. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only thing I'd like to say on 23 that -- well, first of all, I think that the increase that -- 24 you know, from last year to this year in your budget is 25 probably one of the largest, if not the largest, of any 8-31-09 bwk 54 1 department in the county. So we are funding -- you know, 2 trying to come up to, you know, giving you additional 3 resources. But I think you need to understand also that we 4 can't determine a budget based on return on investment. I 5 look at Rusty over there the jail. I don't think the jail is 6 ever going to make a return to us, other than maybe... 7 Obviously, we can't gut the jail budget, 'cause that's -- you 8 know. So, I mean, you just can't look at it solely from 9 that -- or, you know, that really as a major criteria. 10 MR. BARTON: I agree. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Our responsibility to the 12 taxpayers and to employees and department heads, elected 13 officials, is to provide you with the resources to accomplish 14 your constitutional duties, and I think we're doing that. I 15 know it's less than you had asked for, but we all understand 16 how we got to where we are. And I appreciate you trying to 17 level the playing field and come up with a real budget that 18 doesn't account for other sources. 19 MR. BARTON: It seems like -- like, at this point, 20 we're about -- last time we met, we had come down from 245 to 21 230. And I used the term "nickel-and-dime." You know, we're 22 down to now $20,000 difference between what the Court 23 discussed this morning and what we had talked about last 24 time. And -- and I'm not privy to the insight that you men 25 have to know if there's -- there's $20,000 out there that we 8-31-09 bwk 55 1 can pitch into funding the D.A.'s office. I don't know that. 2 I leave that in your hands. I know you're going to make a 3 good decision for the community. I'm going to make a hand 4 with whatever you give me. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate that. I know you've had 6 some hard decisions to make. Obviously, we didn't like the 7 sticker shock, but we needed to have it, because we needed to 8 know the true cost of running that office. And -- 9 MR. BARTON: We're all big boys, and -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: We've gotten spoiled in the past 11 years, and -- but that can't continue forever. We have an 12 obligation to fund that office, to perform the function that 13 it needs to perform. And -- 14 MR. BARTON: I appreciate y'all's efforts. Thank 15 you. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Thank you. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Are we now to capital? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We are. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I have -- with regard to the 21 proposed facility that we started out on a rather modest 22 scale with for the 216th Juvenile (sic) Probation office, 23 that thing has morphed into something significantly larger. 24 I got, late last Friday, the most recent site plan and draft 25 of the floor plan for those -- for that particular facility 8-31-09 bwk 56 1 to house both the 216th Adult Probation, and also the -- the 2 administrative services -- or some of the administrative 3 services for the Sheriff's Office, together with some common 4 areas. And I've distributed that to you folks this morning. 5 I don't know that this affects in any way the -- the bottom 6 line cost that we've got plugged into the -- to the capital 7 outlay request schedule. My thinking is still that we can 8 come in -- and has always been that we can come in 9 significantly below that, by the construction methods and 10 materials and by utilizing some of our in-house resources or 11 other available resources to accomplish a lot of these 12 particular finish-out aspects of that building. It's a -- 13 it's a pretty good size project now. Mr. Buckalew, did you 14 get your copy that I delivered to your -- 15 MR. BUCKALEW: No, sir, I just returned from 16 Bandera, so I have not been back to the office. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let me let you borrow one of 18 these. She's got one that I gave her to take to the office, 19 and give you a little bit better handle on what's going on 20 here. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, is this floor plan 22 here, is that basically the same thing as -- that Clay drew 23 up? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Captain Buckalew and the Sheriff's 25 Office combined. And there's some modifications to what they 8-31-09 bwk 57 1 drew up, but it accomplishes, with probably one major 2 exception, everything that they have plugged into theirs. 3 That training area is considerably smaller. The training 4 area that was in the huge one, in the first one, why, it was 5 probably -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Twice as big. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: -- more than twice that big. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, almost all the way 9 across the building. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I do have -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Much, much larger. So, that -- 13 that's the major change. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And where did that -- the 15 room that was cut, the square footage that was cut out of 16 there, where did it go? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, number one, it reduced the 18 overall size of the -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: -- of the structure. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Our original plan, if you'll recall, 23 was to look at building a building for the Adult Probation, 24 and then make it approximately twice that size, leave the 25 remainder of it unfinished for expansion purposes. Sheriff's 8-31-09 bwk 58 1 Office then got involved, and next thing we know, we had 2 12,000 square feet covered. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see the name of it, the 4 Hierholzer Annex. (Laughter.) 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't believe you see that 6 on there anywhere. Judge, I did have Clay measure our 7 current training room. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And this one, at the size that 10 you had programmed in there now, is still almost double the 11 size of the current one, so it would be plenty big. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And what I said this morning 14 is different. This would be fine. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty, how much of the office 17 space would you fill up immediately? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just about every bit of it. 19 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm assuming at some point, 21 we're probably going to have to do some sort of a jail 22 expansion; hopefully, we're talking about 2016, 2020, 23 somewhere in there. Along -- this space will help that kind 24 of be deferred, anyway, from the standpoint that it takes 25 care of your office space needs for quite a while, and that 8-31-09 bwk 59 1 any jail expansion would more than likely just be a pure 2 detention -- detention facility expansion, and not 3 a Sheriff's -- 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's exactly what this would 5 do. This -- you know, the jail docket, the way that's 6 working has saved us, you know, on that for years in the 7 future, I think. But the administrative part, the Judge and 8 Bruce, I think, have taken a tour, and the evidence stuff 9 that we're way over now, so we really do need to do 10 something. So, this would take care of that and allow us to 11 truly put off the jail expansion for later. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Accomplishes three goals. Number 13 one, it gives you new space for your C.I.D., narcotics, and 14 the administrative functions that go with that, bring that 15 from your current facility over to here. Plus, number two, 16 it gives you some expansion area for those two major 17 functions; it'll free up some jail administrative space by -- 18 by letting the jail administration move into the areas 19 that -- 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I won't say that. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: -- folks are vacating. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I won't say it will allow the 23 jail administration to move into that area, because what's 24 going to happen with that area is most of that area's going 25 to be taken up by your evidence storage expansion, okay? And 8-31-09 bwk 60 1 then we have all the other offices the way we have three or 2 four people in those now, that will expand into that. So, 3 your jail administration's probably still going to stay in 4 your jail, but we're okay with that until, you know, years 5 down the road. I don't see the admin. part of the jail 6 growing any more than what it is. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The plan as originally conceived 8 would -- and I realize none of us have a crystal ball. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: But the charge when you and the 11 Adult Probation director -- chief were putting this together, 12 it was to try and project for your needs 10 years down the 13 road. Do you think this will solve that insofar as it 14 concerns your department as to what's going in there? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I do. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: And you, likewise, -- 19 MR. BUCKALEW: Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: -- Captain? 21 MR. BUCKALEW: Yes, sir. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, is the Court 24 familiar with this extra 30 feet here on the right? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm going to explain that. 8-31-09 bwk 61 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We had talked about some unfinished 3 space originally to be used for storage. When we reworked 4 this plan with Mr. Lewis, we ended up with 20 feet out there 5 on the end. Insofar as trying to utilize 20 feet for 6 expansion, it would be difficult to utilize that, whereas 7 with 30 feet, you could come in a separate entrance off that 8 right end, come in, make a T, make a hallway left and right 9 for office space on either side, and you got a workable -- 10 workable space for multiple offices on either side. You can 11 put two smaller departments in there on a future expansion 12 basis, one larger department. You're going to end up with 13 2,400 square feet, and in the interim you could use it for 14 storage. What would have to be done is, at the time the slab 15 were poured, we have to locate at least two restrooms there, 16 and we'd have to rough in the plumbing there so as to have 17 that in place, where we didn't have to call in the 18 jackhammers down the road, which is not a good idea. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: But that's easily enough done. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I thought maybe the front 22 porch. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Could be. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: For early morning coffee 8-31-09 bwk 62 1 and, you know, ciphering and -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rocking chair. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rocking chairs. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, what's the current 5 amount we're paying for the Ziegler building? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: It's right at 40,000. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 40,000 a year? And that's 8 going to escalate, as I recall. Part of the reason that got 9 this moving. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I believe we could save some 13 money over what's projected. Quite a bit of money, actually. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I hope you're right, but kind 15 of like the other stuff, we can't bank on it. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, but it's in the city 17 limits; it might be a little more difficult. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I brought that up at 19 one point at an earlier meeting. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, what do we do to get 21 this thing -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Moving down the road? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- hearing hammers and nails 24 and stuff going on? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, number one, the floor plan 8-31-09 bwk 63 1 we've got on the fast track. As you can see, we've got the 2 draft back. Any additional input from anybody on the Court, 3 Adult Probation, Sheriff -- I can see one modification that 4 needs to be made on Adult Probation, on the access to that 5 one restroom. That should have been changed, but it wasn't. 6 But other than that, I need more input from them, and get 7 this plan finalized, and then figure out how we're going to 8 bid this thing. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. Rusty, on two or 10 more occasions, the discussion has come up of a joint 11 dispatch, and, actually, it was -- a building like this was 12 kind of the thought we had last time it was discussed. Would 13 joint dispatch fit in that vacant spot? Is that enough space 14 for it? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: 2,500 -- 2,400 square feet. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 2,400. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think it -- I think, yes, 18 it's plenty of space for it. You got a lot of hurdles that 19 you'd have to overcome. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand that, but that's 21 one of the -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: As far as space-wise, I think 23 it is. You may have to upgrade some things as far as the 24 security end of your dispatch from outside; that type of 25 stuff is what you'd have to be careful with. But as far as 8-31-09 bwk 64 1 space, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't work. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's just as a -- I just want 3 to make sure; I'd hate to have it too small, you know, by 4 10 feet, and it would be a possibility. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're just adding on a roof 6 and slab. It's not much now. Be a whole lot later. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My current dispatch office is 8 nowhere near 30 feet wide. It's probably more like 10, 12. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much space is allocated 10 elsewhere in K.P.D.? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: How much what? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much space is allocated 13 at K.P.D.? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They've got an area that's 15 about the size of this room; maybe a little bigger, but not 16 much. It's pretty -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I like the idea. Need to make 18 darn sure that we're not skimping 10 feet. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thirty feet's usable; 20 feet 21 isn't. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Forty would even make it 25 better. 8-31-09 bwk 65 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Forty gives you a lot more 2 flexibility. I don't think it's going to drive the cost up. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, it's negligible. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Negligible if it's unfinished 5 space. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like that notion of 7 contemplating that use. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At least there's a -- next time 9 we get to the discussion point, at least there's a spot for 10 it, which takes that whole issue off the table, and also 11 meets a lot of your things that you thought was a good idea 12 to put it all -- 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I do -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- out by the jail and by the 15 Sheriff's Department to keep the interaction going. Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That issue, for your 17 information, Sheriff, is still alive down the street. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I know it is. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't mean that direction 20 down the street; I mean that direction. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because we hear a lot of 22 rumblings -- I won't get into that. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyway, I think we need to take 24 that into consideration. If that needs expanding, I would be 25 in favor of that at this point. 8-31-09 bwk 66 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Makes sense. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I think what we need to keep in 3 mind, if there's an inclination to, say, add another 10 feet, 4 what it's going to affect is the original placement on the 5 site. And Mr. Lewis has already had some discussions with 6 our floodplain engineer about the detention pond that is out 7 there. That's probably going to require some reworking. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And, Judge, in regards to 9 that, we got your floodplain engineer and those people 10 together out there. Schreiner College has done some major 11 work right on the opposite side of the fence and put in 12 actual large culverts. That's going to change a lot of that 13 water flow already. And -- and that ditch that runs down the 14 edge of our -- I've seen where they laid out the property 15 line. If that were expanded to fit with even the apartments 16 across the street, you know, I think, just looking at it, it 17 would solve a whole lot of the water problems. And I don't 18 think moving that building back another 10 feet, if that's 19 what Jonathan is talking about, would affect that at all, 20 because our part of the drainage has to be redone. Our 21 drainage is -- is terrible right there, and that detention 22 pond, in its current form, is useless. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I don't -- I think it's a 24 decision that we can make a little bit later, because -- and 25 it can be an add alternate on any kind of a plan as well. 8-31-09 bwk 67 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's just going to be -- just 2 going to be adding basically unfinished space. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's not going to change 4 the -- the plug-in budget number that I see. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: No. No. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My question in that regard 7 would be, does the million and a half that's in the capital 8 program contemplate any extensive site work, above routine 9 site work? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: It includes the -- the fencing. It 11 includes the new parking area, which will be immediately 12 adjacent to the street. You'll see it on your site plan 13 where it says "Proposed Parking." 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: It includes the additional parking 16 area that -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Narcotics. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the narcotics, right. And I 19 think some minor reworking of that detention area. My 20 thinking was that, in large measure, that could be 21 accomplished by our Road and Bridge people, and they've got 22 adequate expertise -- and Leonard's looking at me now, -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Turning red. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- thinking, "What part of my budget 25 are you going to rob for that?" We should have -- we should 8-31-09 bwk 68 1 have some money in here that can be utilized for that 2 purpose. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you. 4 MR. ODOM: Site work and parking is what we're 5 talking about? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Your guys can practice out 8 there a little bit. 9 MR. ODOM: Sure. Practice is good. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Call it training. 11 MR. ODOM: Training. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Training on working within 13 the city. (Laughter.) 14 MR. ODOM: Be fun. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: May get your Ph.D. on that 16 one. 17 MR. ODOM: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Might. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the -- I'm looking through 20 the capital list. It seems to me that there was one thing 21 that has been taken out, which I'm glad, was the rape -- jail 22 rape cameras. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's gone, right? 25 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 8-31-09 bwk 69 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 2 MS. HARGIS: There is a new item in Road and Bridge 3 that we added for front-end loaders, so I'll just make you 4 aware of that. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's for the second year 6 or first year? 7 MS. HARGIS: It's in the -- in the other fund 8 totals at the bottom here. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But it's contemplated for 10 the second budget year, not the first budget year? Or does 11 it make any difference? 12 MS. HARGIS: Doesn't make any difference, because 13 once we get the money, it's spent however you designate it. 14 There is no budget limitations other than your arbitrage, as 15 I explained earlier. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 MS. HARGIS: This is a different type of a budget. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have a pressing need for both 19 of those? 20 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: At this point? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How firm is this figure for 23 the safety committee? 24 MS. HARGIS: I'm sure it's not that firm. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I tell you what, it seems to 8-31-09 bwk 70 1 me like we're going to have to cut out something here. We 2 can't have all this stuff. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. What do you 4 suggest? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where do you start? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Radios? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Airport? 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That'd be nice. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can sell the courthouse. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We can sell the airport; we 11 won't have to worry about all this. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's probably an 13 option. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can't tell you. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's beginning to make a lot 16 of sense. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not a very good option, but 18 it is an option. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Might be a better option than 20 you think. It would be -- it would be on the tax rolls, 21 then. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we get it off in our private 23 sector, I'd be willing to entertain it. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. Absolutely. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Maybe you can put it on Ebay. 8-31-09 bwk 71 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Better be a bunch of zeros 2 out there on the end of it, though. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, unfortunately, I don't 5 see a whole lot that can be cut. I mean, they're all kind of 6 equal priority, I think, almost. The things that either have 7 to be done because of unfunded mandates, like the radio 8 things, I don't like them, but if I say take them out, then 9 we got to pay for them, and we're not going to have any money 10 in the next couple years to pay for them. All the vehicles 11 that we're paying off, we're just rolling it out of our 12 normal budget and putting them in here, so that doesn't make 13 sense to get rid of. The two big -- 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That will help us on our -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It will help our budget -- 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Help your budget next year, 17 yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot of these help our budget 19 next year. I mean, and the few little things -- I mean, I 20 really don't -- 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: One thing is, I believe we 22 were told by our financial adviser that we didn't have a 23 whole lot more to play with than what he had -- 24 MS. HARGIS: Well, we do, because he had the jail 25 coming in at 2013. If we push the jail out -- 8-31-09 bwk 72 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To 2016. 2 MS. HARGIS: -- to 2016, then we're fine. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 2020. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That gives you that extra. 6 MS. HARGIS: The key is putting that extra -- 7 putting the jail out. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, that makes a big 9 difference. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Of the radio equipment for the 11 Sheriff's Department of 140,000, there's only 50 of that 12 that's likely to be reimbursed. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, 50 of that is what we're 14 going to have to spend. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The rest of it, 90 is likely 17 to be reimbursed through the grant, if we get it, that's 18 applied for. 19 MS. HARGIS: I got that down below, Judge, in the 20 yellow. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. 22 MS. HARGIS: That's why I highlighted -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the level of confidence 24 of that grant? 25 DEPUTY BARTON: We haven't presented it yet. 8-31-09 bwk 73 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It gets presented the end of 2 this month. We did get half of it last year; this is the 3 other half of the two-phase we're trying to do in two years, 4 so I think that helps the likelihood some. But -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does it help if we don't fund 6 it? (Laughter.) 7 DEPUTY BARTON: Hasn't been presented. We don't do 8 the oral presentation till the 21st. 9 MS. HARGIS: That's not really -- to me, that's 10 almost like a contingency holding, because that money's not 11 going to even come up to a -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Might not make any difference 13 at this level. 14 MS. HARGIS: No. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because all of those are in 16 the same grant, the constable radios, the Animal Control 17 radios, and that 141 is all in the same one. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd like to see -- you know, 19 have Mr. Henderson look at it with this number and see what 20 it looks like, see if it's doable. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Me too. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I totally agree with that. 23 You aren't going to get an argument out of me on that one. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to get us down the 25 road. I want to start taking some steps, and let's get -- 8-31-09 bwk 74 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, you know, as long as 2 this is -- he's signed off on this, I can probably sign off 3 on it, I think, 'cause I think these are all good projects. 4 They're needed. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I think we have our charge, don't 6 we, Ms. Hargis? 7 MS. HARGIS: I will e-mail this to him today and 8 ask him to send out proposals to y'all so y'all have them in 9 your hands, so that we can be looking at them. Keep in mind, 10 it -- you know, the market is changing kind of on a daily 11 basis, so the sooner we sell, -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The better. 13 MS. HARGIS: -- the better. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, how many -- how many 15 vehicles are you purchasing? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In this grant, okay -- or in 17 this capital outlay, it's 11, is what you have there. You've 18 got a jail van we've got to replace, and then you've got this 19 year's five cars and next year's five cars. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If you remember, this covers 22 two years, and next budget we won't be able to add cars. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I love it. What do you do 24 with your old ones? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, a lot -- I've got 26 8-31-09 bwk 75 1 with well over 100,000 miles on them right now, Buster. I 2 have two that went down last week, permanently, one that had 3 a hundred and -- 140,000 miles, and it had a transmission go 4 out on it. I'm not paying another 3,000 for -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, what are you going to 6 do with your old cars? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The ones that we can possibly 8 get over to the courthouse or still use -- I know the Auditor 9 and I talked about three of them for courthouse purposes, 10 which we will be more than happy to do. If we cannot do 11 that, they're going to be sold. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're bringing your junkers 13 over to the courthouse? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's right. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait a minute. I've got 16 some really ugly pictures in my mind right now about that. 17 Why are we doing that? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If they are still -- when I 19 first took office, I made an agreement with this Court that 20 every car we get goes on patrol, so what will happen is, they 21 may go -- the ones that we're getting rid of may go to 22 replacing some of my C.I.D. cars, 'cause this Court's never 23 bought us investigative vehicles; it's either been through 24 seizure or hand-me-down patrol cars. Or if they're in good 25 enough shape, I was told they still may need more than the 8-31-09 bwk 76 1 one jeep you have over here; that they would come over here. 2 If they won't go with that, then they would be auctioned off. 3 But none of these cars that we would get rid of would have 4 less than a hundred -- 110,000 miles on them. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Well, just first 6 glance at this thing, I can't -- I don't know that we want 7 your junkers sitting around the courthouse. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm more than happy to get rid 9 of them. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you're getting rid of 11 them, why would we want them? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, it's kind of -- you 13 know, and I think -- and some people disagree with it. It's 14 kind of like when we got that jeep, we thought we did real 15 well, Buster. Because that's what it was compared to, most 16 of the cars we're getting ready to get rid of. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. We like our jeep. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We like our one. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like it; I think it's 20 cute. Of course, it doesn't run. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can sell all his junk and 22 get, like, a Yugo. (Laughter.) 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Maybe. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Too bad the Cash for 8-31-09 bwk 77 1 Clunkers program's over. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't even think ours would 3 qualify for that. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: We utilized the Cash for Clunkers 5 program, in case you gentlemen are not aware. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For whom? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: For Tim's truck. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wonderful. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did we really? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: We sure did. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Buster, do you realize when we 12 auction those off, that those proceeds automatically go in 13 general fund? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's not like I get to keep 16 it. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, now -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We need all we can get to 19 help fund what you do want. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else on the capital 21 list? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know what you're 23 going to cut. I don't see it. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, there's one of those 25 vehicles -- there's two vehicles for Tim there, and I think 8-31-09 bwk 78 1 one of them can go away, can't it? 2 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir, one of those can go away. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Cut that by 21,5. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. As long as you're 5 here, Mr. Bollier, let me ask you a question with respect to 6 the jail maintenance. We got 50,000 for air-conditioners 7 there. Is this the tail end of that program, or are we going 8 to continue to buy -- 9 MR. BOLLIER: That should be the tail end, sir. 10 There's only 10. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Replacement program? 12 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. There's only 10 left up 13 there. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's good news. We're going 16 forward. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Well, and, of course, the 18 newer air-conditioners are more efficient, and so that 19 reduces our utility costs, too. That helps. Okay. What 20 else we got, gentlemen? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did we take a vehicle out 22 just now? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We can, yeah. Take -- cut that 43 24 in half to 21,5. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. I agree. 8-31-09 bwk 79 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's fine. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Give us a little help. Because 3 we're also going to have to consider -- and Mr. Henderson's 4 going to have to incorporate the cost of issuance in there, 5 which he's made allowance in the other analysis that he's 6 provided for us. Any other -- the elected officials or 7 department heads have anything they want to throw out on the 8 table? Ms. Hyde? 9 MS. HYDE: There's been some question about what 10 holidays we're proposing for next year. They're the same as 11 this year: Labor Day, Veteran's Day, Thanksgiving and the day 12 after, Christmas Eve and the day -- Christmas, New Year's 13 Eve, New Year's Day, President's Day, Texas Independence Day, 14 Good Friday, Memorial Day, and Fourth of July. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Sounds pretty normal. How many is 16 that, 13? 17 MS. HYDE: Thirteen. I tried for 14 last year, and 18 y'all -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Were we at 13 the year before 20 that? 21 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. There's been 13 as far back 22 as I can find history. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Didn't we do something last 24 year, or maybe two years ago, that we did the two -- two days 25 at New Year's because of where the -- the way the calendar 8-31-09 bwk 80 1 fell, and we got rid of something? 2 MS. HYDE: The -- yes, sir, we got rid of Columbus 3 Day. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Got rid of Columbus Day. 5 MS. HYDE: And this year, Christmas and New Year is 6 on Thursday and Friday. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Thursday-Friday this 8 year, okay. 9 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, next year, we may -- 11 MS. HYDE: We might modify it again. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- look at giving Columbus Day 13 or some other holiday. 14 MS. HYDE: Yes. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Seems like a good place to start. 16 Anything else? We're adjourned. 17 (Budget workshop was adjourned at 11:36 a.m.) 18 - - - - - - - - - - 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8-31-09 bwk 81 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 11th day of September, 8 2009. 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8-31-09 bwk