1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, February 22, 2010 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X February 22, 2010 2 PAGE --- Visitors' Input 5 3 --- Commissioners' Comments 7 1.1 Presentation concerning Water Saver Landscape 4 Contest for residential Kerr County properties to be held during spring of 2010 9 5 1.2 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 6 offer from Liberty National Life to sponsor county employees to receive a $3,000 accidental 7 death policy at no cost to employee or County 13 8 1.3 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to adopt a Kerr County Mission Statement 23 9 1.4 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action 10 concerning capital improvement funds; make necessary budget amendments or adjustments 26 11 1.5 Presentation from attorney Rolando L. Rios 12 regarding the redistricting of commissioner precincts and the upcoming decennial census 34 13 1.6 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 14 set a public hearing to add stop sign at Roundabout Lane and Sandy Lane, Precinct 2 42 15 1.7 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 16 approve the Bid Proposal Policy 43 17 1.8 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve Maintenance Department to build a 18 10' x 10' enclosed office space for Chief Deputy in the County Clerk's Office 47 19 1.9 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 20 appoint John Carlson as a member of the Kerr County Child Services Board 50 21 1.10 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 22 approve use of Flat Rock Lake Park June 12, 2010, by American Legion, Elks Club, and VFW, for 23 conducting carnival and flag retirement ceremony 51 24 1.12 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve contract with Kendnel Kasper Construction 25 for new Law Enforcement Annex/Adult Probation Building and related improvements 52 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) February 22, 2010 2 PAGE 1.13 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 3 approve contract with Freese-Nichols, Inc., for engineering services related to repairs of Flat 4 Rock and Ingram Dams 53 5 1.14 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on personnel issue regarding Prescription Plan 6 modifications pertaining to Kerr County medical prescription plan 55 7 1.11 Presentation by David Mendez with Bickerstaff 8 Heath Delgado Acosta LLP regarding the 2011 redistricting 89 9 1.15 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 10 personnel issue regarding insurance coverage, privacy officer, and new business agreements 11 signatures required for Kerr County 108,196 12 1.16 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on personnel issue regarding new HIPAA, COBRA, 13 CHIPRA, and other Legislative changes requiring mandated notifications required for Kerr County 14 employees 116 15 1.18 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action regarding chili cook-off scheduled for April 16 2nd and 3rd, 2010 at Flat Rock Lake Park 135 17 4.1 Pay Bills 141 4.2 Budget Amendments 141 18 --- Direct Item Register 145 4.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 149 19 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee 20 Assignments --- 5.2 Reports from Elected Officials/Department Heads 150 21 1.17 Presentation by the City of Kerrville on 22 proposed Certificate of Convenience and Necessity for water application to the Texas 23 Commission on Environmental Quality 151 24 --- Adjourned 208 25 4 1 On Monday, February 22, 2010, at 9:00 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 8 Let me call to order this regularly scheduled meeting of the 9 Kerr County Commissioners Court posted and scheduled for this 10 date and time, Monday, February the 22nd, 2010, at 9 a.m. It 11 is that time now. Commissioner Letz? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. Please stand and join me 13 in a moment of prayer, followed by the pledge. 14 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. At this time, if there's 16 any member of the public or the audience that wishes to be 17 heard on a matter that is not a listed agenda item, this is 18 your opportunity to come forward and tell us what is on your 19 mind. If you wish to be heard on an agenda item, we'd ask 20 that you fill out a participation form -- there should be 21 some located at the rear of the room -- so that we'll know 22 that you want to be heard on that item, and hopefully I won't 23 skip over you when we get to that point. If you wish to be 24 heard on an agenda item and you've not filled out a 25 participation form, that's fine too. Just get my attention 2-22-10 5 1 in some manner when we're handling that item, and I'll give 2 you the opportunity to be heard. But right now, if there's 3 any member of the public or audience that wishes to be heard 4 on any matter that is not a listed agenda item, feel free to 5 come forward and tell us what's on your mind. Yes, ma'am? 6 If you'll tell your name and address, and tell us what's on 7 your mind. 8 MS. McMAHON: Morning. I'm Diane McMahon, 1904 9 Daniel Drive in Kerrville. Good morning, Judge Tinsley (sic) 10 and the Commissioners. I have two brief comments to make on 11 two separate topics. The first one has to do with bicycling. 12 I would just like to remind the Commissioners that as we do 13 county or TexDOT road improvements, to keep in mind that good 14 shoulders make for good bicycling. We get a lot of 15 bicyclists in the county as tourists who like to ride in our 16 area, as well as local residents who do, so I would just 17 encourage you to keep that in mind as you do road 18 improvements. The other comment has to do with the L.C.R.A. 19 power lines. I've driven all across I-10 from the west side 20 to the east side, and there's no more beautiful section than 21 what we have here in the hill country. It really discouraged 22 me to hear that one of the proposed transmission routes is 23 through the hill country along the I-10 right-of-way. I 24 understand the rationale, because there's right-of-way there. 25 But I think there's more involved than just the right-of-way. 2-22-10 6 1 What we have here is unique. You know, Kerr County, we're so 2 lucky; we've got this beautiful river, wonderful people, 3 beautiful scenery, and a lot of people come here for those 4 reasons. 5 If we have 170-foot towers spanning the whole 6 length of I-10, I wonder how appealing that this will be to 7 tourists. I think we make a lot of money in our county from 8 tourism, and I think it could have a negative effect. I also 9 think that a lot of people I've talked to don't seem to get 10 spun up about this like I do, but I moved here because I 11 think it's gorgeous. I love this county. And to me, it'll 12 totally destroy it forever if we've got these power lines 13 going along it. I would propose that whatever influence the 14 Commissioners have, if you agree that we need to protect one 15 of our most precious resources, that we encourage them to put 16 them elsewhere. If they're determined to put them along that 17 right-of-way, then bury them. I was just talking to the 18 reporter here, and she said, well, it saves money buying 19 property if you put it out on the public easement. That's 20 true. But then the money you save, bury the power lines, and 21 you've got a win-win. If that's not feasible, at least 22 consider using poles rather than towers. But I think there's 23 something going on that we really need to think about and 24 consider carefully, because what happens is going to affect 25 this county forever. So, that's pretty much what I have to 2-22-10 7 1 say. Thank you. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. Anyone else 3 wishing to be heard on any matter that is not a listed agenda 4 item? Seeing no one else coming forward, we will move on. 5 Commissioner Letz, have you got anything for us this morning? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A couple comments. I'm going 7 to, if it's all right with everyone, step out round 9:40 to 8 go over to the GMA-9 meeting for an hour or so this morning. 9 Unfortunately, I can't be in two places at once. Another 10 item, I think several weeks ago I mentioned about this other 11 committee that I got put on, the Southern Edwards Plateau 12 Habitat Conservation Plan. And as it turns out, I'm co-chair 13 of that group along with Kirby Brown, who's -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Along with who? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kirby Brown. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who is that? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kirby's the executive director 18 of the Texas Wildlife Association. And, anyway, it's -- 19 Kirby and I are heading that up, and largely, I think we got 20 put in there because of our -- both of our strong stances 21 protecting private property rights. 22 MS. McMAHON: Jonathan, could I add, the P.U.C. is 23 going to make a decision on those transmission lines before 24 they've had time to review the environmental impact 25 statements. Since you mentioned habitat protection, I 2-22-10 8 1 thought I'd add that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. The -- I'm involved with 3 that. There's a meeting of the Hill Country County Coalition 4 this Friday that everyone's invited to in Fredericksburg, 5 trying to go over the next legislative session. I think Paul 6 Sutton will be at that meeting to give kind of a review of 7 what's going on, what committees have been formed. And this 8 Wednesday or Thursday, pending our schedules, I'll be meeting 9 with Councilman Motheral to try to work out ETJ issues. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's going to be here this 11 afternoon. Why don't you talk to him then? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it'll probably be more 13 productive if we meet one-on-one. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's it. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Oehler? 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, nothing this morning. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Baldwin? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir, thank you. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, sir. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I, too, will have to step out a 23 little bit before 11:00. I've got a commitment that I must 24 make, and will be back this afternoon for the CCN 25 presentation. Let's get on with our agenda. The first item 2-22-10 9 1 on the agenda is a presentation concerning Water Saver 2 Landscape Cost contest for residential Kerr County properties 3 to be held during the spring of 2010. Mr. Lipscomb? 4 MR. LIPSCOMB: Thank you, Judge. Good morning to 5 you and Commissioners. First, I might just start off by 6 saying the good news is I'm not here to ask for any money. 7 (Laughter.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That's always good. 9 MR. LIPSCOMB: Yeah. Just wanted to tell you about 10 a new event for Kerr County. Starting this year, spring of 11 '10, open to all residential properties in Kerr County, 12 there'll be a Water Saver Landscape Contest. And the 13 important part of that is the "water saver" part; it's really 14 to make the public aware of our water situation, how critical 15 it is, and how we all need to really think about conserving 16 water. And a lot of people say that you can use -- up to 17 50 percent of the water that comes to a home is used in the 18 landscape. So, the idea was if -- if that much water's 19 really used in landscape in a lot of residential properties, 20 if we could impact that area, we could save a lot of water. 21 So, that's why -- that's the idea behind the contest, to 22 reward individuals who have done something to make their 23 landscapes more water conservative, and to, in general, make 24 the overall public kind of aware of the things that you can 25 do to conserve water and, obviously, save -- save money too. 2-22-10 10 1 There'll be a pamphlet; this is a black and white 2 version. There will be a pamphlet that will be distributed 3 around the local businesses later this -- well, next month 4 and -- and in April. The sponsors, I might just mention, for 5 this contest, people that are putting up the money is 6 Headwaters Groundwater Conservation, U.G.R.A., Public Works, 7 City of Kerrville, and although they're not putting up any 8 funds, the AgriLife Extension Office has been a great help. 9 There'll be eight prizes. There'll be a total of $1,260 in 10 gift certificates awarded to eight winners. There'll be four 11 businesses that'll be participating in -- in providing these 12 gift certificates. Let's see, what else? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Who are the businesses? 14 MR. LIPSCOMB: The businesses are -- I have three 15 confirmed businesses, and that will be the two local 16 nurseries; that's Plant Haus and Alltex, and Hill Country 17 Stone, and I'm currently still working with Lowe's. Lowe's 18 helped out last year, and this year they were a little 19 more -- with the economic situation, a little more 20 conservative, so I had to make a request to their corporate 21 office. And I haven't heard back yet, but I think they'll be 22 on board. And let me just say, since I mentioned last year, 23 last year we did this contest just within Kerrville, people 24 who received -- excuse me, residents who received water from 25 city of Kerrville. We did that for the first time last year, 2-22-10 11 1 and this year we're expanding it out to the whole county. I 2 think that's about it. I'll be glad to answer -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you -- 4 MR. LIPSCOMB: -- any questions. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What kind of criteria -- or 6 what are some of your thoughts? A couple things pop in my 7 mind. Are you -- do you look at rainwater systems? Do you 8 look at plants that are conducive to this region, that kind 9 of thing? 10 MR. LIPSCOMB: Well, yes. Certainly, native plants 11 are great, because they require less water and less 12 maintenance, more drought tolerant. There are seven criteria 13 that the judges will use. Let me rephrase it; there were 14 seven criteria that we used last year. Quite honestly, this 15 Tuesday the judges are going to meet and talk about the 16 criteria. We may adjust them somewhat. But they dealt with 17 things like low water maintenance, color landscapes, how you 18 used your hardscapes, you know, your driveways and sidewalks 19 and maybe rock walls and such, those type of criteria. The 20 front landscapes are the only thing that are judged. And 21 most people, if they have a rainwater harvesting system, 22 don't put it in the front. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. 24 MR. LIPSCOMB: So, it's a factor -- and, in fact, I 25 might just mention, there's an entry form that is required to 2-22-10 12 1 be completed to enter the contest, and one of the questions 2 on that entry form has to do with rainwater harvesting. So, 3 the judges will be aware that there may be a unit sitting in 4 the back yard. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, mm-hmm. 6 MR. LIPSCOMB: Okay. And the reason for the -- for 7 the entry form is there's so many things in your landscape 8 that you couldn't see even if you drove by. And I think a 9 good example is, like, if you have a drip irrigation system 10 under your mulch. You know, you drive down the street; you 11 wouldn't know that just looking. So, the -- the entry form 12 pulls that kind of information out, makes it available for 13 the judges. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fantastic. Good. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more questions for Mr. Lipscomb? 16 Thank you very much for being here. 17 MR. LIPSCOMB: I have some cards that just have the 18 dates, the key dates. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, wonderful. 20 MR. LIPSCOMB: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There you go. 22 MR. LIPSCOMB: And there's some information on the 23 back of the cards, too. Thank you so much for your time. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: You bet. Thank you, Mr. Lipscomb. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 2-22-10 13 1 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll move to Item 2; to consider, 2 discuss, take appropriate action on offer from Liberty 3 National Life to sponsor county employees to receive a $3,000 4 accidental death policy at no cost to the employees or the 5 County; notation here that that matter is already -- the 6 offer has been completed with the City of Kerrville. 7 Ms. Miller? 8 MS. MILLER: That would be me. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 10 MS. MILLER: My name is Robin Miller; I represent 11 Liberty National Life Insurance. We are a 109-year-old 12 financial services company that was originated in Birmingham, 13 Alabama. And in 2008, I guess somebody in Alabama figured 14 out that "sweet home" actually wasn't in Alabama, and they 15 relocated their corporate Headwaters to McKinney, Texas. 16 So -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's pretty cute. 18 MS. MILLER: Thank you. I'm a little nervous this 19 morning; I'm kind of shaking a little bit, 'cause I'm cold, 20 not so much because I'm nervous. But what I would like to 21 talk to you about this morning is one of the ways that our 22 company advertises is with this $3,000 accidental death 23 policy. We don't advertise any on television, on the 24 internet or anything like that, because we don't believe that 25 that is the way that people should make decisions about the 2-22-10 14 1 future of their family if something happens to them due to a 2 death or a catastrophic illness. So, what we're doing here 3 in Texas is, we are visiting every one of the counties. We 4 have already completed enrollments in Llano, in Frio County, 5 Wilbarger, Foard, Hardeman, Cottle, and we're currently 6 enrolling Montague and Knox. Those are kind of up around the 7 Oklahoma border a little bit. And what we do is we come in, 8 we sit down with each one of the employees, and we give them 9 this $3,000 accidental death policy on behalf of the county. 10 So, I too am not here to ask the County for money. I'd 11 actually like to give you guys something. 12 And so, what we do, we come in, we sit down, we 13 visit with each individual. We enroll them with this 14 accidental death policy. We give it to them for the first 15 year at no cost. At the end of that year, if they elect to 16 keep that policy, it's $10 for their whole family for the 17 whole year. It will pay $3,000 on the employee, $3,000 on 18 their spouse, and $1,000 on each one of their children that 19 they still have living at home. So, you get -- actually, you 20 know, you can get $10,000 or $15,000 worth of coverage, 21 depending on how many -- how many people you still have in 22 your home. And the price of the policy will never go up, and 23 the face value of the policy will never decrease. And then a 24 lot of times what people say, "Well, Ms. Miller, why is your 25 company doing this? What's in it for your company?" Well, 2-22-10 15 1 what it does is it gives us the ability to get in front of 2 people and actually talk to them about their insurance needs. 3 One of the things that we have found, a very common 4 factor here in the counties in Texas, is that they -- you 5 guys do offer life insurance policies to the -- to the county 6 employees. But a lot of the counties have purchased what's 7 called a decreasing term. That means that over a period of 8 time, the face value of that policy decreases every year. 9 And then, when people get ready to retire at 65 or 70, they 10 have a life insurance policy that's only worth $2,000 or 11 $3,000. We've even seen one in Cottle County that was only 12 worth $500. So, then you have a 70-year-old person that is 13 getting ready to retire that has $500 worth of life insurance 14 and didn't realize it. So, it gives us an opportunity to 15 talk to people, to maybe help them out with additional needs 16 that they have. One of the products that sets Liberty aside 17 from a lot of the other companies out there is we have a 18 group term to 100 policy. Now, what that means is that's a 19 term life insurance policy that is good until they are 100 20 years old. The face value of that policy will never 21 decrease; the premium will never increase. And the most 22 important thing about it for employees is, because they 23 purchased it through the work site, they are able to take it 24 with them when they retire. It's portable. They don't have 25 to convert it over into any other type of policy. And their 2-22-10 16 1 premium will stay the same. So, do you gentlemen have any 2 questions for me? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do. Let's pretend that we 4 have other accidental death policies. 5 MS. MILLER: Mm-hmm. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And Bill gets run over by a 7 kangaroo on the way home, and it's an accidental death. 8 MS. MILLER: Y'all have kangaroos here? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Big ones. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There are some. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There are some. 13 MS. MILLER: No, I've been here before. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They all live near my 15 house. 16 MS. MILLER: I buy cars here. My uncle owns the 17 car dealership here. I've never seen a kangaroo. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You've just not been to the 19 right area. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can't believe car 21 dealers. (Laughter.) And I'm working on insurance salesmen 22 right here. And Bill dies. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh my god. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it's an accident. 25 MS. MILLER: So sorry, Mr. Williams. 2-22-10 17 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good gosh, it's an accident, 2 Bill. It wasn't anything -- on purpose deal. Can -- is he 3 -- is his family going to be able to collect from -- this is 4 a question that we should have asked from the damn helicopter 5 people. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Will he be able to collect 8 from both? Or -- 9 MS. MILLER: He can collect on as many policies as 10 he has. That's one of the things -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you get that, Kathy? 12 MS. MILLER: Yes, collect on all policies, any life 13 insurance policies that he has. He'll be entitled to the 14 funds from them. If they have an accidental death rider on 15 them, he will be entitled to any funds from that, plus any 16 other policies that he has. We work in conjunction with 17 other policies. We don't single out that you cannot have 18 more than one policy. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. Thank you, 20 Ms. Miller. 21 MS. MILLER: Well, and you -- you can't really bury 22 somebody decently for $3,000; that just adds to something 23 that they -- that they already have. And we're in 24 recessionary times, and a lot of times the very first thing 25 that people drop is, if you've got to pay your mortgage, your 2-22-10 18 1 light bill, and your car payment and your life insurance, 2 you're going to let -- you're going to roll the dice and let 3 the life insurance lapse. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question. You're talking 6 about a $3,000 accidental death policy. 7 MS. MILLER: Uh-huh. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But what you're really 9 talking about -- correct me if I'm wrong -- is that you want 10 to sell term life insurance to our employee group. Would 11 that be correct? 12 MS. MILLER: We use the accidental death policy -- 13 we give them to that -- we give them that policy as a gift on 14 behalf of Liberty National and the county. And that gives us 15 an opportunity to sit and visit with them, and for them to 16 ask us questions about maybe coverage that they already have. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: It's a marketing -- marketing 18 vehicle. 19 MS. MILLER: Yes, because that's how we spend our 20 advertising dollars. We don't have a -- a duck or a gecko or 21 anything like that. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No gecko? Oh, my. 23 MS. MILLER: No gecko. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Have you talked with -- with 25 Ms. Hyde, our H.R. -- 2-22-10 19 1 MS. MILLER: We have. We've spoken -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: -- Manager? 3 MS. MILLER: We have. We've spoken with the County 4 Clerk. We spoke to the Treasurer. We've spoken to the 5 people in H.R., and we have also talked to a gentleman by the 6 name of Gary Looney, who represents Alamo Insurance in San 7 Antonio. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 MS. MILLER: And got very favorable comments back 10 from him. Todd? 11 MR. HAMEL: Absolutely. I spoke with Ms. Hyde. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And your name? 13 MR. HAMEL: Oh, thank you. My name's Todd Hamel. 14 I also work with Liberty National more in the area here, and 15 met with Mr. Looney, who said that both our group term 16 product showed good value, nice, very limited underwriting, 17 and was unique in its offer to the employees. And I've gone 18 back to Ms. Hyde and represented that he gave me a favorable 19 opinion, and we brought it to the Commissioners Court. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me -- let me make a suggestion, 21 if this is appropriate. That whatever -- whatever 22 information that you have that you want to impart to the 23 employees, that you do that through Mrs. Hyde. She works 24 with the employees -- 25 MR. HAMEL: Okay. 2-22-10 20 1 JUDGE TINLEY: -- on a daily basis, and this is her 2 bailiwick. She works regularly with Mr. Looney, and that 3 would seem the appropriate vehicle -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to handle this matter, it occurs 6 to me. 7 MR. HAMEL: Okay. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: But I understand, it's a marketing 9 vehicle that you folks have that gives you the opportunity to 10 get exposure. You may get nothing more, but you're not going 11 to get it if you don't get the opportunity, and I understand 12 that. 13 MR. HAMEL: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The question I have is that, 15 assuming -- say we do this. How many contacts are you going 16 to make to an employee? If you -- say you call me and I say 17 I don't want to talk to you any more. You won't ever call me 18 again? 19 MS. MILLER: No. And the only place we contact 20 them is here at the workplace. Let me explain in general 21 kind of how we do that. We're unique in how we do that. We 22 get a roster with all of the supervisors on the roster. We 23 contact the supervisor and see what time is best for their 24 department for us to visit with those employees. We don't 25 ask them to herd everybody up to the courthouse or 2-22-10 21 1 what-have-you. We will go to those individual departments. 2 We are aware that there are people that work shifts. We 3 also -- you know, we have people available that can help 4 people that work 11:00 to 7:00, whatever we need to do, 5 because we don't want to interrupt the work flow. When they 6 sit down with us, the very first thing we do is we tell them 7 that we have partnered with the county to enhance their 8 benefit package, and that we're giving them this policy on 9 behalf of the county. And then we tell them that we have 10 other products available if they would like to take a look at 11 those products. If they tell us they are not interested, we 12 do not push them in any way, shape, form or fashion. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My initial pulse on this is no. 14 And the reason is that this opens up a -- as to how you say 15 no to the next thing. Obviously, you're giving a product or 16 service away to the employees, but say somebody wants to come 17 in and say, okay, they're going to give the County $500 if -- 18 if they get all the employees, or they're going to give us 19 1,000 if they're going to give the employees -- whatever. 20 It's just -- I don't know how you stop it. And I don't like 21 the part of you meeting employees during our work time. This 22 is a -- to me, you know, if it were -- if the rest of the 23 Court chooses to go down that road, I would be pretty, I 24 think, adamant that the meetings be voluntary after work or 25 before work, something, not during work. 2-22-10 22 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or during open enrollment. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Open enrollment. I don't know 3 that I want our employees to be taken out of their work to go 4 listen to -- basically, to a sales pitch. 5 MS. MILLER: It takes -- it takes about five 6 minutes, and that's when we normally do it is during open 7 enrollment. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyway, I'll let you -- I kind 9 of go along with the Judge; I think you visit with Ms. Hyde, 10 the H.R. department, let her kind of sort it out a little bit 11 and come back with a recommendation. 12 MS. MILLER: Any other questions? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do have one more. You had 15 named a couple of counties out in the panhandle somewhere. 16 MS. MILLER: Mm-hmm. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And do -- do they normally 18 do a payroll deduction and the employee pay for it? Or is it 19 like a gift from the county? 20 MS. MILLER: If -- on the accidental death policy, 21 there is no obligation whatsoever on behalf of the county. 22 At the end of the first year, if they elect to keep the 23 policy, they'll get a little card in the mail telling them 24 that it's time to renew the policy, and they just send in $10 25 with the card. 2-22-10 23 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 2 MS. MILLER: Now, if they do elect to purchase some 3 other type of benefit from us, that is generally a payroll 4 deduction, because you have a Section 125 set up here which 5 saves the employee tax dollars and saves the county tax 6 dollars, and so that would -- those products would be 7 included in that 125. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 9 MS. MILLER: Thanks. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more questions? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir. Thank you. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. 13 MS. MILLER: Thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate it. Let's go to Item 3 15 on the agenda; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 16 adopt a Kerr County mission statement. Ms. Lavender? 17 MS. LAVENDER: Good morning. One of the 18 requirements for the grants that we approved the resolutions 19 for two weeks ago is that the County have a mission 20 statement. And so I contacted Commissioner Williams and 21 sought his help in doing this. And I think you went to the 22 TAC web site and found some mission statements, some other 23 similar county situations. And -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, what we did was -- 25 yeah, we did a little research. Jody did the research. 2-22-10 24 1 Thank you, Jody. And we did go to TAC, but I don't think we 2 ever heard back from TAC. We researched some of the larger 3 counties in the state, only to find out that we could -- we 4 could get ahead of the curve by doing it ourselves. And so 5 what you see in front of you is... (Laughter.) 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: When in doubt, do it 7 yourself? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly. 9 MS. LAVENDER: The cost was right also. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The price was right. So, 11 what you see is the product of mine and the Judge's efforts 12 together, and it's open for discussion and change. There is 13 no pride of authorship. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Looks good. It's simple, to 15 the point. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the way we wanted to 18 keep it. 19 MS. LAVENDER: I think it will fit in that little 20 square. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When you look at the 22 possibility of listing everything we do, we say, my gosh, 23 who's going to read that? You know. So, keep it simple, the 24 old "KISS" -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: KISS theory. 2-22-10 25 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: KISS theory. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move approval of the mission 3 statement as approved. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As submitted. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 7 indicated. Question or discussion on the motion? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just a question. Did TAC 9 never respond back, Jody? At all? 10 MS. GRINSTEAD: No, one gentleman called back, 11 and -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wanted to know who we were 13 or something? 14 MS. GRINSTEAD: No. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If we paid our dues. 16 MS. GRINSTEAD: He said he was going to research 17 it, but I never heard back. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Let's don't hold our 19 breath. Thank you. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or discussion 21 on the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 22 raising your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 2-22-10 26 1 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll go -- 2 MS. LAVENDER: Thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: -- go to Item 4; consider, discuss 4 take appropriate action concerning capital improvement funds 5 and make necessary budget amendments or adjustments. High 6 Sheriff. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would hope all of y'all got 8 the backup to this. I think it's pretty well 9 self-explanatory. From using that in that capital 10 improvement stuff, there was a total of about 800-something 11 thousand -- 818,000 that was earmarked for kind of a lot of 12 the Sheriff's Office, jail, and courthouse security 13 improvements. And since all that time the budgets have been 14 done, there's been a lot of changes done. And I think that 15 if we reallocate or use a lot of that earmarked for other 16 things, about 635,000 of the 818,000 is what the Sheriff's 17 Office/Courthouse Security and jail actually needs. And then 18 I'm asking for the 80,000 that you'll see on the proposal at 19 the top of the second page, so that it would mean that 101 of 20 that -- 101,000 of that money can be reallocated however the 21 Court desires, and that won't need to be earmarked for the 22 Sheriff's Office any more. 23 And in doing that, and in accomplishing those, it's 24 going to use about 88,000 on top of everything out of my 25 seizure fund. And then at the very bottom, you will see what 2-22-10 27 1 all the accomplishments will need to be done using that 2 money, which will replace our patrol fleet, except for the 3 three Tahoes we have now. The rest of them will be replaced. 4 All jail radios will be replaced. We'll have 12 additional 5 cameras and all hard drives associated with the recording 6 equipment in the jail. Camera system will be replaced, video 7 conferencing from the -- two of the main courtrooms at the 8 courthouse, being District Court Number 1, and being County 9 Court at Law being the second one. 10 Now, this video conferencing system actually, in 11 the District Court Number 1, is a pretty expensive system. 12 It will -- the cameras will actually zoom in on whoever is 13 talking, whether it be the defense attorney, the witness, the 14 Judge, the prosecuting attorney, or evidence being shown. An 15 inmate will be able to be in the video conferencing room at 16 the Sheriff's Office or at the jail and be able to watch it 17 all and see it from there if they don't have that inmate 18 here, or plea packets are done from here. The inmate will be 19 able to sign documents via electronic that will be sent back 20 and forth. And if an attorney wants to visit their client 21 totally separate, they will be able to log into the system 22 from their office, if they have the right equipment at their 23 own office, and visit with the client at the jail without 24 having to clog up the system over here of transporting all 25 those inmates back and forth. It's all been reviewed -- I 2-22-10 28 1 think Trolinger's in here -- 2 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- by John. It will fit with 4 the master plan of maybe someday having a foundation set here 5 that will incorporate what Judge Tinley was getting to, where 6 the other counties in this area will be able to do the same 7 thing with our attorneys here and the judges being here. And 8 then it will give the courthouse one Ford Expedition that we 9 currently have got 76,000 miles on it. It's a three-seat 10 Expedition that will be able to be used for any of the 11 trainings or conferences. People at the courthouse have been 12 asked about that. And it will put a low band radio in our 13 dispatch's -- tied into our dispatch console, which is where 14 Len Odom's people will be able to call directly in from their 15 radio system they have and talk to our dispatchers if they 16 need to. I think that will be a big benefit for Len's 17 people. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Trolinger, I saw something from 19 you recently dealing with a possible grant request on the 20 video teleconferencing system, and I know you guys have been 21 collaborating on what the Sheriff has put together here, but 22 if we can use somebody else's money for the video 23 teleconferencing part, I'd prefer to do that rather than use 24 ours. Where are we there? 25 MR. TROLINGER: From my reading of the Indigent 2-22-10 29 1 Defense Grant, it's very strictly limited to those functions 2 of indigent defense. So, we want to focus in the -- that 3 very expensive piece on indigent defense, and see if we can 4 segregate that. Since this is used for multi-function, I 5 don't think it would pass the initial muster of the Indigent 6 Defense Grant. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I know several years ago, 8 more than 50 percent of their discretionary grants under the 9 Indigent Defense program went to video teleconferencing 10 systems. That was, what, three, maybe even four years ago 11 now. In more recent years, there's not a whole lot of that 12 discretionary grant money. Have -- have you checked with 13 Ms. Lavender, tried to incorporate her help on grant requests 14 as it pertains to maybe some video components that we can 15 pull into this thing? 16 MR. TROLINGER: I have not. And the company I'm 17 working with that Ms. Bailey got us started on last year is 18 -- has actually helped me. They have a grant writer, and 19 they've done this for other counties. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 MR. TROLINGER: And the big picture on it is 22 there's something called a video teleconference bridge that 23 we desire to have, and that's what I'm going to use the 24 Indigent Defense Grant to -- to pull all this together with. 25 It's a very expensive piece of equipment. 2-22-10 30 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So, there is an additional 2 component over and above these? 3 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Where you've got your sights set to 5 try and pull in with grant funding? 6 MR. TROLINGER: Affirmative. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. That answered my 8 question, then. Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Two comments -- oh, go ahead, 10 Bill. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff, on -- you're 12 listing the current balance of your seizure fund as 163,000, 13 from which you're going to ask to expend 88,000. My question 14 is, is that 163 just your seizure fund, or is that the 15 infusion of dollars that came from 198th also? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That 163, well, it -- it's our 17 seizure fund, okay? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, 198th had -- you know, 20 because of that joint case, okay, we did receive a share of 21 that, which is the majority of my seizure funds. But that is 22 Kerr County Sheriff's Office seizure fund. Every bit of 23 these funds are -- are Sheriff's Office seizure fund. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just one kind of a comment, to 2-22-10 31 1 make sure I -- for the public more than anything. It's not 2 as much that you're changing the original capital outlay; 3 it's just that you funded some of those purchases with other 4 sources of funds, correct? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. We're not 6 adding new things into it -- into the mix. We're -- we're 7 narrowing down some. We funded some through some other means 8 and that, some through funding, a few more through the -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just want to make sure the 10 record's clear that we spend the money where we said we're 11 going to spend it. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- we're able to do it 14 more efficiently than we thought. One other comment. This 15 is more a long-term concern. We have all new vehicles, which 16 is good. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: All but three. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, all but three. Even so, 19 that's very good -- that's a very good thing. But we're 20 going to need to be -- or you're going to need to be 21 extremely diligent when it comes to replacing these vehicles, 22 because we're not going to be able to afford to buy 20 23 vehicles, whatever you have, 30 at one time in five years. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What my -- no. What my plan 25 is at this point -- and Bruce and I have discussed it -- or, 2-22-10 32 1 you know, my liaison discussed it. And that was, I'm 2 proposing that probably the first group we're going to start 3 replacing is going to be the three that -- three current 4 Tahoes I have, okay? And I'm proposing that hopefully we 5 will be able to replace those in three years. And then after 6 that, I will need to go to the five or six-a-year vehicle 7 replacement every year, to keep us under that $200,000 mark. 8 And that projected out -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought you had a plan. I 10 just wanted to make sure we didn't -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, part of the plan is -- 12 I visited with him the other day about it. He will take -- 13 and the ones that are not terribly high mileage will be 14 passed down to Warrants and things that aren't patrol 15 vehicles so that they can be used longer. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: See, like -- 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And he'll replace with new -- 18 new ones every now and then. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the original plan was 20 that the expenditure of 300 -- $380,000 worth of vehicles was 21 a two-year plan; is that correct? Is that still the plan? 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm planning on this possibly 23 even reaching out to three. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, fine. Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, we need to approve the 2-22-10 33 1 reallocation as -- on the expenditures as presented, correct? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to approve 6 the agenda item and the reallocation presented by the 7 Sheriff. Question or discussion on the motion? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, just a second. Yeah. 9 You just briefly went by about transferring a vehicle over to 10 the county system to use for schools and all that kind of 11 thing. Is that a part of this motion? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, it is. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I hope -- and I'm all 15 for that, of course, but I hope that we are able to bring 16 that as a separate agenda item later on so that we can have 17 guidelines on that. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't want to see us 18 hopping in that car to run to get our groceries and -- and 19 those kinds of things. I want some strict guidelines on it. 20 Much like -- as an example, like, the moneys that we use for 21 out-of-county travel, things that are related to what the 22 state requirements for us to be educated, those kinds of -- 23 you know, that's -- it's just -- I think it's wise to do 24 that. And so we'll do that later, Judge, do you think? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we've got somewhat of a policy 2-22-10 34 1 in place now for the existing vehicle that's utilized; it's 2 drawn for use by various departments to do county business 3 in, and it will be similar to that. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I'll bring it back. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: This is -- the thought here is that 6 you -- you can carry a number of people. Rather than be 7 paying mileage to five people to go to the same conference, 8 you can load them up in one car. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: And -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Much like we do. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Exactly. That's how we're doing it 13 now, yeah. That's the theory behind it. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right, thank you. I'll 15 bring it back. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Other questions or comments? 17 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 18 hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll go to 23 our -- excuse me -- 9:30 timed item, Item 5, a presentation 24 from attorney Rolando Rios regarding redistricting of 25 commissioners precincts and upcoming decennial census. Good 2-22-10 35 1 morning. 2 (Commissioner Letz left the meeting.) 3 MR. KORBEL: Morning, Judge. Judge, my name is 4 George Korbel, and this is José Garza. We are associates of 5 Mr. Rios. Mr. Rios and I partnered 10 years ago to handle 6 redistricting. We represented 50 cities and counties and 7 school districts and special districts, including the Houston 8 Independent School District and the San Antonio Independent 9 School District, the City of San Antonio, Cameron County, 10 Hidalgo County, Gregg County out in east Texas, Red River 11 County in east Texas. We represented a number of those 12 jurisdictions. Mr. -- Mr. Rios and Mr. Garza have been 13 lawyers involved in this sort of litigation for 30 years, and 14 I've been, unfortunately, involved for 40 years. The process 15 that you have to go through is, once a decade, the census 16 publishes the information, and you are required to divide -- 17 redivide the county up into four commissioners precincts that 18 have roughly the equivalent population. Now, we -- the law 19 seems to say that we can go up to a 10 percent deviation, and 20 your current plan, we estimate, has somewhere in excess of a 21 20 percent deviation. But the biggest deviation is between 22 two commissioners' precincts, and so it could be -- it could 23 be modified fairly simply, and without making a whole lot of 24 changes, unless you want to make the changes in the 25 commissioners' precincts to make it easier for you to 2-22-10 36 1 function as commissioners. 2 Now, our process is that we meet with each one of 3 the Commissioners separately and get your ideas, and then, 4 based on your ideas, we will draw a plan or plans and bring 5 it back to the Court. The individuals can look at that plan 6 and they can say, well, we should change this and we should 7 change that, and we will do that for you until we've got a 8 plan that you all are satisfied with. And then -- then you 9 can go ahead and adopt that plan. Your -- you can have one 10 public hearing, or you could have more than one public 11 hearing. The public hearing could be at the time that the 12 plan is actually adopted. We find, in our experience at 13 least, that if we have a plan that the commissioners are 14 satisfied with, and that you adopt a plan that you're 15 satisfied with, the public is pretty well satisfied with it 16 also. We had -- for the Houston Independent School District, 17 I think we had five hearings scheduled, and a total of 12 18 people showed up for five hearings, because everybody was 19 satisfied with the plan, and it accomplished what was -- what 20 we intended. Now, our charges are $15,000 for a county -- 21 for a county this size, for a larger county, and we have 22 $5,000 in expenses. Now, we'll either bill you by the hour, 23 or we'll capitate the charges for the county at $15,000 and 24 no more than $5,000 in expenses. 25 Now, our experience is that it would be cheaper for 2-22-10 37 1 the counties to go by the hour, actually. But every county 2 that we dealt with and every jurisdiction we dealt with 3 didn't believe that, and they wanted the capitated fee 10 4 years ago. And our -- the way we would charge for this is 5 $5,000 at the time a letter of agreement is entered into 6 between the county and us, $5,000 at the time the plan is 7 adopted, and then $5,000 after the Department of Justice 8 preclears the plan. After you adopt the plan, we have to go 9 to the Department of Justice to get their approval; I'm sure 10 you know that. And we can start work on this plan probably 11 sometime in January or February of next year, because that's 12 when the census data will be available. And we would hope to 13 have this plan done and submitted and precleared by the 14 Department of Justice before the -- before the end of May or 15 the beginning of June. It's a very small window you've got, 16 because the plan has to be in effect for the next election 17 year. We have a great deal of experience. None of our plans 18 have ever been objected to by the Department of Justice, or 19 even subject to litigation. So, we're able to come in, set 20 the plans up, get them precleared and you ready to go without 21 any -- without any slow downs. And I'll be glad to answer 22 any questions that y'all have about the -- about the service. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Korbel, the -- I'm speaking from 24 anecdotal reporting, but it's my impression that probably 25 most of the litigation that has been initiated over the years 2-22-10 38 1 in connection with voting rights under redistricting items, 2 at-large, single-member, that sort of thing, has probably 3 been handled by or in conjunction with other lawyers by 4 Mr. Rios; is that not correct? 5 MR. KORBEL: That's correct. And Mr. Rios and 6 Mr. Garza and I have all been involved in litigation, but on 7 both sides of the issue, Judge. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 9 MR. KORBEL: Sometimes we defend jurisdictions, and 10 sometimes we sue jurisdictions. I mean, I think every lawyer 11 is like that. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 13 MR. KORBEL: And, in fact, I was involved back in 14 the middle '70's in the extension of the Voting Rights Act to 15 cover Texas, and the Supreme Court has cited things that I've 16 written on three separate occasions. So, we have a good 17 experience with the -- with the -- with the law. But how 18 does that help you? The way that helps you is that we have 19 an excellent reputation with the Department of Justice, and 20 if -- and if we can draw a plan that you're satisfied with, I 21 think we can probably advocate for you better than anybody 22 can advocate for you. In this particular county, looking at 23 your data, I don't think it's probably going to be possible 24 to -- even if we tried, to draw a plan in which Hispanics 25 and/or African Americans are in a majority in one of the 2-22-10 39 1 commissioners' precincts. Once that is over, that's out -- 2 pretty much out of the case, and so it preclears then very 3 easy at the Department of Justice. But -- but that's a great 4 question, Judge. In fact, many of -- many of our clients are 5 -- were our clients when the litigation was filed. So -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: They became a defendant in 7 litigation at the hands of Mr. Rios and others, and they 8 subsequently signed on board for their plan, right? 9 MR. KORBEL: Yes, Judge. And I think in most of 10 the places where we've been able to draw districts that 11 elected Hispanics and African Americans, I think they're much 12 better for the process, because more ideas get -- get out and 13 discussed, and there's more access to the community, and it's 14 just good all the way around. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more questions for Mr. Korbel? 16 Thank you, sir. We very much appreciate you being here. 17 MR. KORBEL: Yes, sir, Judge. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Obviously, we're going to be making 19 a decision on this issue in the near future, and we look 20 forward to talking with you. 21 MR. KORBEL: Great. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do have one question, 23 Judge. What preliminary work do you need to do to be able to 24 represent Kerr County, and when would you anticipate that 25 needs to begin? 2-22-10 40 1 MR. KORBEL: Well, actually, we've done most of the 2 preliminary work in preparation for this appearance. We've 3 looked at the voter registration from the -- from 2000 4 through today in each one of the voting precincts, just to 5 give us an idea what the population would look like. And 6 then the only other thing that we would need from you is 7 the -- once we get the census data available, that we come 8 over and meet with you and get your ideas, and we'll prepare 9 charts and graphs like the ones that are in that package 10 showing the voter registration over time and the population 11 over time. And based on that, you can start with the 12 redistricting itself. Actually, it goes very smoothly if we 13 go step by step. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is the state 15 demographer's number? 16 MR. KORBEL: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more questions? Thank you, sir. 19 MR. GARZA: I might add one thing, Judge. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, sir. 21 MR. GARZA: And that's that sometimes there -- 22 litigation that is outside the control of the Commissioners 23 Court impacts on the lines that you have to draw. So, for 24 instance, if there's a lawsuit on congressional districts or 25 state house districts, and you have to modify the plan that 2-22-10 41 1 you've already adopted, as we note in the packet that we've 2 prepared for you, we will come back in and make those changes 3 at no extra cost. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In other words, those -- 6 like, a congressional district line may come through a 7 county. 8 MR. GARZA: That's right. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Might take in an entire 10 county. 11 MR. GARZA: Exactly. 12 MR. KORBEL: When the judges draw plans, they don't 13 care about your voting precincts. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's pretty rude, isn't 15 it? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They don't care about 17 anything. 18 MR. KORBEL: But you don't want to tell a judge 19 that it's rude. We had one county, for example, that they 20 drew the line through, and they messed up all four county 21 commissioners' precincts, and all -- literally all the 22 precincts in the county, so we had to really start from 23 scratch. And we also are available for the entire decade, if 24 you are a client, to respond to questions over the phone that 25 your local officials might have concerning the Voting Rights 2-22-10 42 1 Act and concerning your responsibilities and that sort of 2 thing. So, great. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Thank you for being 4 here today. 5 MR. KORBEL: Thank you. May we be excused? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. Thank you. 7 MR. KORBEL: Thank you, Judge. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 6; consider, 9 discuss, take appropriate action to set a public hearing to 10 add a stop sign at Roundabout Lane and Sandy Lane in 11 Precinct 2. 12 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. We have -- the West family 13 lives at 132 Sandy Lane. Unfortunately, this property -- the 14 location of that property is adjacent to Roundabout Lane, 15 where it intersects, and here recently there's been some 16 people not stopping, except through the fences of the West 17 property, and the Wests have requested that the County 18 install a stop sign at Roundabout Lane and Sandy Lane. So, 19 at this time, we ask the Court to set a public hearing to 20 install a stop sign at Roundabout Lane and Sandy Lane for 21 April the 12th, 2010, at 9:30 a.m. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This will be a cheaper 23 solution than what they really wanted, which was a guardrail 24 in front of their fence. 25 MR. ODOM: That's correct. And that situation 2-22-10 43 1 makes the situation probably more dangerous than that fence 2 does, and we're not -- we're not acclimated to do that. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To set a public hearing at 6 9:30 a.m. on April 12, 2010. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 8 indicated. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 9 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 10 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carries. 14 MR. ODOM: Thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. We'll go to Item 7; 16 consider, discuss, take appropriate action to approve Bid 17 Proposal Policy. Ms. Pieper? 18 MS. PIEPER: Gentlemen, I hope you've read over 19 this bid policy. This, I think, is needed to help keep down 20 a lot of confusion. Every different -- or every office in 21 the county has got to where they're bidding different ways 22 and stuff. And I think if -- if you, as a Court, will 23 approve this bid policy, then I think in the future, that may 24 keep down a lawsuit as well. If somebody -- do you have a 25 question, Judge? You're looking at me funny. 2-22-10 44 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I've had the opportunity to review 2 it. There's some things in here that I'd like to look at 3 further, and my note here says, "Talk to Jeannie about this." 4 There are some adjustments and some clean-ups that I'd like 5 to do. I agree with you; we need a single, standard bid 6 policy. But I think there needs to be at least a little work 7 done on this one, and I'd like the opportunity to work with 8 you and others and the Auditor to come up with something 9 that's been pretty thoroughly staffed as we go forward. 10 MS. PIEPER: Okay. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: But I agree, we need a single one. 12 We sure do. 13 MS. PIEPER: Okay. Well, we can table this and we 14 can have a meeting within the next couple of weeks and bring 15 it back, then. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm curious. What -- what 17 triggered this? 18 MS. PIEPER: Bids coming in that the Court has 19 asked department heads -- you know, referred bids to a 20 department head, and then asked the department head to bring 21 them back. However, when something comes in, the clerk's 22 office has to have a copy of everything before it goes out -- 23 I don't know how to explain it. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, if you had a standard 25 set of rules, that would be easy to -- something to compare 2-22-10 45 1 to and easy to get through it? 2 MS. PIEPER: If we had a set of standard rules, and 3 which I have -- have tried figuring out here, when bids come 4 in, they would come in in at least duplicate. One bid would 5 be marked "original." One bid would be marked "duplicate." 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 7 MS. PIEPER: And then that way, we could keep one 8 for the record, and then one could be referred to the 9 department head for referral. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Is there -- is there 11 times that you're not getting copies for the -- for the -- 12 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- long-term record? 14 MS. PIEPER: And we've already been through -- or 15 almost been through a lawsuit once before when there was a 16 bunch of insurance documents that we didn't get back. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I should have said "are" 18 there times. I'm sorry, Bill. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's okay. Don't do it 20 again. (Laughter.) 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right, thanks. And 22 then -- and then -- see how nice we are? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then how -- how does the 25 Auditor fit into something like that? I'm just curious. 2-22-10 46 1 How -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, because the Auditor regularly 3 works with -- with purchasing requirements. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: And this falls under that bailiwick. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The other thing that we've had, a 8 lot of times, when -- if it was a bid that some particular 9 department was interested in, the bids would come to that 10 department. I know we've had difficulty here. We need to 11 provide that they come to one single place all the time, 12 where they can be properly logged in, noted as to date and 13 time, and -- and I know there's -- we've had at least one 14 issue of -- of someone presenting themselves to submit a bid, 15 and there wasn't anybody available on that particular bid 16 process to receive it. Well, we got the bid, but we weren't 17 sure exactly what time it was received. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Fortunately, we did know the date, 20 and we knew it was okay. 21 MS. PIEPER: At times an advertisement says "sealed 22 bids," and people will bring in a stack of documents to our 23 office to be filed. Well, they're not sealed, so we've been 24 handing them big envelopes. Well, I don't think that that's 25 right either. So, I mean, sealed bid means sealed bid. You 2-22-10 47 1 bring it in -- you know, I mean, so I think if we had a set 2 of policies, if somebody brings me in a stack of papers and 3 says, "Here's my bid," I say, "That doesn't meet our statute; 4 it's not sealed," and let them go back and -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You probably have that 6 authority now. But, okay, thank you. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Pieper. 8 MS. PIEPER: You're welcome. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 8; consider, discuss, take 10 appropriate action to approve the Maintenance Department to 11 build a 10-foot by 10-foot enclosed office space for chief 12 deputy in the County Clerk's office. 13 MS. PIEPER: Gentlemen, this is kind of 14 self-explanatory. I want to build just a little office space 15 for my chief deputy. That way, when she is counseling with 16 employees or general public or something, she has a private 17 place to do it at. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where would it be located? 19 MS. PIEPER: Within my office, kind of like right 20 -- I talked with the Maintenance Department about it, and Tim 21 said it wasn't going to be a problem to do it kind of right 22 in front of where my office is, and start from the back wall 23 and -- and come out 10 feet. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It would not be in the 25 position that Ms. Thompson occupies right now? It'll be a 2-22-10 48 1 different location? 2 MS. PIEPER: It'll be right -- 10 feet from where 3 her desk is now, over to the wall. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Some of those file cabinets along 6 the south wall will be relocated. It could go back along the 7 south wall. 8 MS. PIEPER: There's the electrical there, and then 9 we have -- there's actually two things of electrical there, 10 so they're not going to have to be relocated. Phones won't 11 have to be relocated. It's going to be right in a good area 12 to where we don't have to worry about those. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 approval. Question or discussion? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How much money? I mean, has 18 the Maintenance guy -- has he signed off on this? He hasn't 19 said anything to me about it. 20 MS. PIEPER: He quoted somewhere around $1,000. 21 But I'm thinking if we use safety glass -- because I want her 22 office to be glassed like mine is so she can still be able to 23 see the deputies and stuff. I'm thinking no more than 2,000. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And where is that money? 25 MS. PIEPER: Within our budget. We'll take it out 2-22-10 49 1 of 10-403-310. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is that? 3 MS. PIEPER: Office supplies. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you -- you built your 5 budget $2,000 more than -- 6 MS. PIEPER: No. I can -- I can take bits and 7 pieces from here and put it in there and then do it. So -- 8 and then, when Maintenance and I were talking about it, you 9 know, at that point I didn't know how much it would cost, and 10 he said that he had a little bit of money too, in case we 11 needed it. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Another slush fund. All 13 right. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got to write on both sides 15 of the paper. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: You want to go down there and ride 18 herd on that, Buster? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, just thought I'd ask. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Oh, come on, now. Jump in 22 there. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Further question or discussion on 24 the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 25 your right hand. 2-22-10 50 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Okay, Commissioner, 5 here's your opportunity. Item 9; consider, discuss, take 6 appropriate action to appoint John Carlson as a member of the 7 Kerr County Child Services Board. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: John Carlson is a local 9 attorney, and he's applied to be a member of the Child 10 Services Board. He's a graduate of Tivy High School, 11 University of Texas in Austin for both his bachelor's and law 12 degrees. He's currently in private law practice here in 13 Kerrville. He's a member of the Young Men's Business League, 14 Kerrville Under 40, Kerr County Bar Association, Hill Country 15 Estate Planning Council, and the Kerrville Public School 16 Foundation. He brings expertise in financial management, 17 planning, and evaluation to our board. Most importantly, his 18 family has cared for and adopted a child through Caring 19 Family Network and Child Protective Services. He's married 20 to Nicki, and the father of three children. And one thing 21 that's not on here that I think is super, super important is 22 he's a native of Kerrville, Tivy boy, and he has come home to 23 serve his community and pay it back for the things -- for 24 growing up here, and I appreciate that. He's a -- I move 25 that we approve John Carlson's membership. 2-22-10 51 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 3 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 4 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carried. Item 10; 9 consider, discuss, take appropriate action to approve use of 10 Flat Rock Lake Park on June 12th, 2010, American Legion, Elks 11 Club, and VFW, for purposes of conducting carnival and flag 12 retirement ceremony. Commissioner Williams? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, sir. Pretty 14 straightforward. American Legion, the Elks, and VFW are 15 getting together for a carnival of some sort and a flag 16 retirement ceremony, and the date is June 12, 2010. I move 17 approval. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 20 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 21 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Item 12; 2-22-10 52 1 consider, discuss, take appropriate action to approve 2 contract with Kendnel Kasper construction for the new Law 3 Enforcement Annex/Adult Probation building and related 4 improvements. We had a preconstruction meeting last week on 5 this project. Mr. Odom and some of his people were there, 6 and all of the other principals dealing with the contractor, 7 the architect and so forth. At that time, there was a draft 8 form of contract presented, and I submitted that to the 9 County Attorney. The -- the bid specifications required that 10 the contract be on A.I.A. form as to the contract and general 11 conditions. It is on that format. It's very lengthy, pretty 12 detailed. There were a couple of particular issues related 13 to -- to the matter that I made special notes on for 14 Ms. Bailey. And then, of course, any -- any changes to the 15 contract because of our being a local government, she would 16 have to make the appropriate modifications to it. She hasn't 17 had much time to this point, but, Ms. Bailey, where are you 18 in connection with that contract? 19 MS. BAILEY: I did have an opportunity to review 20 both the contract and the addendum. I'm satisfied that they 21 do meet our requirements. There -- the usual issues of not 22 having the County agree to indemnify anybody are satisfied in 23 there, because it says "to the extent allowed by law." Those 24 A.I.A. contracts are pretty well thought out and pretty well 25 vetted by lawyers much more skilled in contract law than 2-22-10 53 1 myself. I don't see any difficulty with it at all. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Subject to your final 3 tweaking of the contract, you think it's appropriate for the 4 Court to approve it, then, today? 5 MS. BAILEY: Yes. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd move approval of the 8 contract with Kendnel Kasper -- is that a correct spelling of 9 Kendnel, the way it's listed on the agenda, K-e-n-d-n-e-l? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That's correct. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kendnel Kasper Construction 12 for the new Law Enforcement Annex/Adult Probation building, 13 and authorize County Judge to sign same. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Question 16 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 17 raising your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let's go to 22 Item 13; consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 23 approve contract with Freese-Nichols, Inc., for engineering 24 services related to the repairs of Flat Rock and Ingram Dams. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is in relation to the 2-22-10 54 1 repairs that are necessary for Flat Rock and Ingram Dams, and 2 this is the engineering that will be necessary prior to going 3 to bid for the work to actually be done. I believe the 4 amount is about $12,000. The County Attorney has reviewed 5 the contract, made one suggested change, which is 6 incorporated in the final draft that the Judge can sign. And 7 I think that's kind of it. I would move approval of that 8 contract. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 11 approval of the agenda item. Further question or discussion 12 on the motion? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, a request. You said 14 "about" 12,000. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think -- yeah, it is 16 12,000. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we say for sure? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not to exceed? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: N.T.E., not to exceed. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. Thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, that's a fee. Any -- any 24 out-of-pocket expenses, of course, would be in addition. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 2-22-10 55 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any other questions or 2 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 3 your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let me 8 inquire, Ms. Hyde, in connection with the next three items, 9 are those items exclusively executive session items, or they 10 can be handled in the clear as policy matters? 11 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let me call Item 14; 13 consider, discuss, take appropriate action on personnel issue 14 regarding prescription plan modifications pertaining to the 15 Kerr County medical prescription plan. 16 (Commissioner Baldwin left the room.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hyde? And I note that Mr. Carey 18 Malek, who represents our third-party administrator, is here 19 also. 20 MS. HYDE: Gentlemen, I gave you a handout at the 21 end of last court. Do y'all need copies of it again? 22 Probably? 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. You didn't expect 25 it to last till this meeting, did you? 2-22-10 56 1 MS. HYDE: We discussed the prescription plan, and 2 we did a modification on the prescription plan regarding 3 seven -- seven scrips that we put into an alternative tier. 4 In December, once we put in the alternative tier, I was happy 5 to note that in January, it showed that our December usage of 6 those drugs had reduced. However, we got January's, and we 7 pretty much are at a net zero right now, and one of the 8 reasons being is this right here. And this is only showing 9 for Nexium, but they are doing coupons throughout 10 prescription plans. That's one of the strategies this year. 11 Which means that an employee can go to a physician or to a 12 pharmacy, and when they get in there, if they see that that 13 is going to be a $55 copay or a $65 copay, they can receive 14 this coupon, which reduces their copay to $5. But it doesn't 15 reduce our plan cost. So, it's another methodology for the 16 large pharmaceutical companies to insure that they're going 17 to make their profit. It's not a good thing; it's not a bad 18 thing for them. It's just business. But just like they have 19 business, we have also business. If we do not find ways to 20 reduce these costs, gentlemen, we will not make our plan. 21 It's that simple. We had 14 new people go on Nexium in the 22 month of January. Several of them got little coupons. The 23 good news is that they're talking to me and my folks about 24 it, so we found out that that's what's happening. And we're 25 bringing it back. What we'd like to do is discuss going to 2-22-10 57 1 modify the plan one more time and look at step therapy. We 2 discussed it during the first -- the first round of plan 3 modifications, and we said, well, let's try this first, just 4 increase the cost and see what happens. Well, now we're 5 seeing what happens, so now we're going to request that we go 6 to a step therapy on these seven drugs. 7 (Commissioner Baldwin returned.) 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why'd y'all stop talking 9 when I came in? 10 MS. HYDE: 'Cause you're important. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Gives us a chance to sit down 13 so you can participate. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I guess my comment on this is 16 the fact that, you know, we're trying to do the best we can 17 for our employees. We're trying to be fair and, you know, 18 trying to pick up as much cost as possible. But, you know, 19 the other -- there's an alternative to all of this. I mean, 20 we could -- we can take away some benefits. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If it comes to that. I mean, 23 I understand that these pharmaceuticals are just basically, 24 you know, giving coupons to where there's no copay almost at 25 all, and that's all fine and good, but at the same time, we 2-22-10 58 1 can't afford for people to all be taking brand-name drugs if 2 they can do otherwise by taking generics that do the same 3 thing. I just think the employees and everybody needs to 4 understand that there's a limit to what -- you know, what the 5 County can pay in benefits from prescription drugs, and they 6 need to try their best to cooperate, or it could be a loss 7 for them -- all of us, not just the few. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, Commissioner, the -- one of 9 the alternatives would be for us to modify our plan to say 10 that those seven are not covered, period. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's what I'm saying. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: That's pretty draconian, but the 13 bottom line, when the -- when the pharmaceutical companies 14 that get the big end of the money in these things, they 15 subsidize the copay, which -- which leaves us to pick up the 16 big end of the tab. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Exactly. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That's where we really get hit. You 19 know, I'm -- one issue that I see from an employee standpoint 20 is, is this an income item to them, where they're -- if 21 they're getting the benefit of a $25 or a $50 coupon to apply 22 against their copay under the plan, do they have to declare 23 that as income? I don't know. I -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's an interesting 25 question. 2-22-10 59 1 MS. HYDE: There is a -- there is a concern you and 2 I had discussed as well regarding I.R.S., and that is that 3 for those people that do deductions, and they have medical 4 deductions, people will need to be careful if they are using 5 this for any of their services, because that is -- that is 6 not the intent of the I.R.S. reg. So, if you use deductions 7 and you make the 7.6 or 6.8 percent on the A.G.I., and you're 8 using your medical and you're using an H.R.A. card and you're 9 using coupons, people need to be very careful when they're 10 filling out their taxes. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I guess -- go ahead. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: What you're suggesting is probably 13 the least onerous alternative that we have available to us. 14 MS. HYDE: To start with. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: By requiring them to go through a 16 process whereby an effort is made to see if they can use a 17 therapeutic equivalent. 18 MS. HYDE: Right. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Or a generic-type drug. 20 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: And only in the event that does not 22 work, there are inappropriate side effects, don't get the 23 appropriate medical results, do we then end up with the brand 24 name. There's a middle ground here. You know, from that 25 versus just taking them off altogether. One would do -- one 2-22-10 60 1 would be to put it on a percentage, 50 percent copay, and 2 I'll guarantee you that will get somebody's attention. You 3 take a $600-a-month prescription. People don't realize what 4 we're paying out of our self-funded portion -- 5 MS. HYDE: Right. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: -- for these prescription drugs. 7 It's a phenomenal amount. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But, Judge, as I said last 9 time, a lot of times this isn't the employee's doing. It's 10 the doctor that is saying they would rather have this than 11 the generic, and I don't think you can fault the employee for 12 that. And I don't think the employee should get penalized 13 for that. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll give you the same response I 15 gave you last time, Sheriff. If we have an employee that's 16 putting an excessive share of the burden on the County's plan 17 because of the requirements of that particular employee, that 18 particular employee should be paying an additional portion of 19 what that extra cost is. I don't think the rest of the 20 employees of this county should be shouldering that burden. 21 I can assure you that if, for example, an employee is told, 22 "We're on a 50 percent copay," and the doctor says, "I want 23 to put you on Nexium," and that employee knows that instead 24 of paying $50, that employee's going to be paying $300, that 25 employee's going to say, "Doc, you know, I'm not sure I can 2-22-10 61 1 handle my end of this. Isn't there something else we can 2 try?" I can assure you, that will happen. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree, but that's also why 4 we're on a group deal. Now, the only issue I have -- that 5 I'm really starting to have more and more personally, is we 6 went out for bids for all this new health care and new, you 7 know, prescription stuff. After the bids are awarded, now 8 we're coming back two or three different times with what I 9 would call major changes to what that bid requirement was and 10 changing our plans. And I'm not sure where that stands, 11 either. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't think that was in the 13 bid requirement. This is a benefit that -- 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why I said we're 15 changing it. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We're changing after those 18 bids were awarded. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sometimes changes have to be 20 made when there's abuse of the -- of what we're trying to do, 21 and benefits. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't agree, Sheriff. I 23 think it's more a policy matter on our part than it is a 24 distinction in the bid process. We can change the policy any 25 time we want to change the policy if we think it's in the 2-22-10 62 1 best interests of the County to do so. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. The only issue I 3 have is it was changed, or is being changed within the first 4 month of that bid being awarded. That's when all this 5 started. And if it's an abuse issue, like Commissioner 6 Oehler says, that abuse issue was discovered way before the 7 bid process was done, and I think a lot of this ought to wait 8 until the bid process of next year, instead of changing what 9 we've done right after bids were awarded. I don't think it 10 looks right. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, let me ask you a question. 12 If you went back to your employees today and said, "Because 13 of this cost overrun on our prescription drug benefit plan, 14 you guys need to get ready to be putting in 75 bucks a pay 15 period into the plan next year," what kind of reaction are 16 you going to get? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I don't think you can 18 even realistically suggest I do that, Judge. I think we've 19 got to go -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I think I can, Sheriff. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think we've got to go 22 through the bid process and do what this County's always 23 done. I see -- I just -- the way this one's been done this 24 year I don't think is fair to the employees. And that's just 25 my two cents and my personal opinion. 2-22-10 63 1 JUDGE TINLEY: It's not going to be, quote, fair, 2 unquote, to those employees that are putting an additional 3 burden on our plan that the other employees are not placing 4 there, thereby putting the other employees in a position 5 where they're going to have to figure out what they're going 6 to have to do to share that cost. And it's not fair to the 7 vast majority of the employees to have to pick up that extra 8 cost. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Those -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: We have the ability to make 11 modifications to our plan, and that's where we're coming from 12 at this point. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Those statistics that you're 14 talking about were well-known last year, prior to this bid 15 process, prior to those companies that bid on it bidding what 16 they bid. And now it's all getting changed in the middle of 17 the deal, after it was all awarded. And all those statistics 18 were known prior to that. I don't -- I don't think we -- 19 what we're doing in a lot of this is, we're -- I just -- I 20 don't agree with the way this is occurring. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: You're entitled to disagree. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hargis? 24 MS. HARGIS: Can she explain what she means by 25 step -- 2-22-10 64 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Therapy. 2 MS. HARGIS: -- step therapy? I'm not familiar 3 with that. 4 MR. MALEK: Sure, I can handle that one. Step 5 therapy is just an alternative to what we're doing now, which 6 is you go to the physician's office, they write you a 7 prescription, and you go get it filled at the -- at the 8 pharmacist. In a step therapy situation, if one of the these 9 seven drugs appears on the prescription, it goes to the 10 pharmacist, then the pharmacist puts a hold on it until the 11 physician then counsels back with the employee to say that 12 there are alternatives in this class of drugs that you can 13 take -- and we'll use Nexium as the example -- that you can 14 take instead of Nexium, and that you will then be asked to 15 take, or to try a different drug if you've already tried that 16 drug. Then there's -- generally, there's three steps on most 17 of these; sometimes it's two. Let's say Nexium. The first 18 step would have been Prevacid, which is an over-the-counter 19 drug. The second step might be Prilosec. So, that -- those 20 are the steps that you would take in order to get to the 21 Nexium. It doesn't mean that you can't get Nexium. It means 22 that you're required to go through Step 1, which is, you 23 know, an alternative drug, or Step 2, and then -- then get to 24 the point to where, if Nexium is the only alternative, then 25 you would be allowed to then -- 2-22-10 65 1 MS. HARGIS: Do you have to take the drugs in this 2 step? The alternative drugs, before you can go back to the 3 original drug? 4 MR. MALEK: It depends on where you are in the 5 process. Now, there will be some people that might already 6 be on a drug, where some of those steps won't be necessary. 7 You might be able to skip Step 1 and go straight to Step 2. 8 It just depends on what your physician and the pharmacy come 9 -- the pharmacy vendor will work out. Generally, they're 10 pretty, you know, generous when it comes to that part of it. 11 MS. HARGIS: Okay. I -- I hate to take a step back 12 on this, having gone through a major deal. What are the 13 seven drugs, besides Nexium? Nexium is being misused. 14 MS. HYDE: Aciphex, Celebrex, Crestor, Kapidex, 15 Lipitor, Nexium, Vytorin. 16 MS. HARGIS: Okay. I hate to use myself, but I'm 17 going to. My husband had a heart attack; everybody's very 18 much aware of that. He was taking the alternatives for 19 Lipitor, and it didn't work. Now he's had a major heart 20 attack. I'm going to be real concerned -- I don't mind 21 paying it, but I don't want him to have to go through these 22 steps and have another heart attack, which would cost you 23 more money than him taking Lipitor. So, what do we do? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's exactly the point. 25 MR. MALEK: In a step situation, that more than 2-22-10 66 1 likely would not be affected, okay? Most of these are going 2 to -- excuse me. Most of these will come into play for new 3 prescriptions, but it's not going to exclude an existing 4 prescription from being part of it. A lot of times it's 5 going to depend on the actual drug that's being taken, okay? 6 If there's an existing situation where there's, you know, 7 medical history, that's what makes step therapy really 8 effective, is that it gives the ability to be flexible in 9 this scenario, versus what we talked about going to, was 10 excluding some of these drugs. This gives us a lot more 11 flexibility. What it gives us is this ability to fight the 12 coupon deal that's going on right now. We're trying to stay 13 one step ahead of the drug card company in this scenario, is 14 really why this step therapy's coming in. It's the least 15 invasive of the options that we're looking at. 16 MS. HARGIS: Well -- well, but my big concern is -- 17 and I just had this, because I just had pneumonia a couple 18 weeks ago. I go to a pharmacy; I couldn't get it filled -- 19 it's a different deal -- and I'm waiting for the drug, and 20 end up waiting three or four hours, and couldn't go home 21 because I couldn't get the drug. So, if somebody goes to the 22 pharmacy and doesn't know, and they get up there with Nexium, 23 then they're told to go back to the doctor, you know, how 24 much time is going to elapse while they're doing -- playing 25 this type of a game? Because that can be very frustrating, 2-22-10 67 1 too. It's not that this employee doesn't necessarily want to 2 do it, and I'm not saying we don't need to do the plan. But 3 in this town, we have few choices about where you go to get 4 your prescription, and if we have to go back and forth to the 5 doctor, that would be my only -- you know. 6 MS. HYDE: But when you went to the pharmacy -- 7 since you opened this up, and you're talking about your 8 prescription -- it wasn't one of the seven. You were waiting 9 on something else for a totally different scenario. 10 MS. HARGIS: I understand that, but I don't -- 11 MS. HYDE: I want to make sure that's in the 12 record. It has nothing to do with these seven. 13 MS. HARGIS: No, it doesn't. What I'm saying is, I 14 don't want people to get very frustrated when they take a 15 prescription and they don't get it filled, and then they're 16 told they have to go back. So, our people are going to have 17 to be made very clear that if you're given one of these 18 prescriptions and you go to the pharmacy, it's very possible 19 that they won't fill it. They need to explain that to their 20 doctors straight up when they go in, so they're all going to 21 have to be made aware of these situations. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why don't y'all answer her 23 question and quit trying to cover your butt so much? Answer 24 her question. 25 MS. HYDE: What's the question? 2-22-10 68 1 MS. HARGIS: When they go to the pharmacy and they 2 take the Nexium, will they be told they have to go back to 3 the doctor? 4 MS. HYDE: If that's the first time that they 5 received the scrip, and they didn't do anything on the front 6 end, yes. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But that should be a 8 one-time situation only. 9 MS. HYDE: That's right. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: First time. Shouldn't be a 11 repeat situation. 12 MS. HYDE: No, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Renewal. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. Along those same lines, 16 if you're already on one of those, okay, such as some of the 17 cholesterol -- the Lipitor, the Crestor, and that's -- your 18 doctor wants you on the name-brand, you're taking that. Now 19 you go to a pharmacy; you can't get those filled very far in 20 advance. They don't allow those to be filled very far in 21 advance. You're about down to your last pill before the 22 pharmacist will refill that on that prescription, okay? So 23 -- and you're not supposed to have a break in days if you're 24 taking that medicine. So now, if you're going to go to a 25 pharmacy, the pharmacy's going to say, "No, we're not going 2-22-10 69 1 to fill it until you go back to your doctor." In this town, 2 it could be a week before you get an appointment back with 3 your doctor. You can't have that week off without that 4 medication. You're required to have it at certain times, or 5 else it does lower whatever it does. I'm not a doctor, but 6 they say you cannot have a break in that medication. And I 7 don't -- I hope this doesn't cause a break in that 8 medication. 9 MR. MALEK: It won't. What generally happens in 10 those scenarios is, you know, it will allow you to fill -- 11 it's pretty flexible. It allows you to fill a couple of days 12 if you're -- if you're missing them, and if that gets worked 13 out. Now, you don't have to go back to the doctor and have 14 another appointment. This is all done over the phone between 15 the drug card company and your physician. You generally 16 don't have to get involved in it as a patient. Generally, 17 they'll agree to something, and then you'll just go pick it 18 up from the pharmacist. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The drug card company or 20 the pharmacist? 21 MR. MALEK: The drug card vendor. 22 MS. HYDE: Like Script Care. 23 MR. MALEK: In this case, Script Care would be the 24 one that would work it out between the doctor, and as this 25 starts to become a policy and the physicians understand, this 2-22-10 70 1 pretty much becomes a nonissue after about a month or so, 2 because they get used to what's supposed to happen, and then 3 the doctors are -- will adjust their practices accordingly. 4 It generally doesn't become a big deal to the physicians, 5 because this is a very common practice amongst all the major 6 -- you know, the Blue Crosses, the Aetnas of the world also 7 use these step therapies in all their fully insured plans, 8 and so this won't be much of an adjustment to them. What's 9 thrown people off is this card. This card has really messed 10 people up, and it's made it -- made these brand-name drugs 11 more available to them at a lower cost to themselves. And 12 so, as a patient, you know, you don't demand that you get a 13 lower-cost drug. 14 MS. HYDE: And a lot of the employees that have 15 talked about the coupons, they thought because they got this 16 coupon that reduced their copay by $50, they felt like that 17 meant the drug was reduced as well. So, it's not that 18 they're trying to supersede or convolute or anything like 19 that. A lot of it has to do with, what do they understand? 20 So, the good news is, depending on what y'all decide, we have 21 mandatory meetings Tuesday and Wednesday which we can hand 22 these out one more time and tell folks, you know, "Here's 23 what we're doing, and here's why we're doing it." So, that 24 way, everyone can get it and we can get sign-offs on it 25 saying that they understand it. 2-22-10 71 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The one thing I'd like to see, 3 or that I'd ask this Court to do, 'cause we're hearing from 4 our third-party provider and our H.R. person, and we're 5 hearing one side, and then you've got, like, Jeannie or 6 myself trying to explain what our doctors -- is there any way 7 this Court would table this and get one of the doctors 8 throughout the community -- I don't care who -- that could 9 actually give the other side of this, so that the Court would 10 get the whole picture on what the best action the Court takes 11 for our employees, as far as health for the employees? I 12 agree with what you're saying; it's a benefit. But this 13 county has always done real well with the employees, and this 14 Court's always listened to both sides of every argument. And 15 I would just ask that we listen to both sides of this 16 argument. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: How do you propose we get a doctor 18 in here? Subpoena him? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I would imagine that there 20 is one that would volunteer to come in here and explain the 21 other side to this deal. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you have one in mind? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If you want me to go try and 24 find one, I'll find one. I don't think you want -- because 25 I'm in one of these seven, okay? Medications. And because 2-22-10 72 1 knowing what the -- having family members that's had a lot of 2 problems with these type of medications, I'm not -- I would 3 not be a neutral party in this, Judge. And I think that the 4 Court should see if we could at least get somebody to let us 5 hear the other side of the story. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, the more I hear about this 7 step therapy and all this other stuff, and -- and the 8 methodology that's been used by the -- the drug companies to 9 try and get their leg up so that the patient doesn't suffer, 10 it occurs to me that maybe the better solution would be to 11 just adjust the copay on these and put them, say, at 12 50 percent copay. And if the drug companies want to step up 13 and say we'll swallow it for half -- 14 MS. HYDE: Did you mean copay? You're talking 15 total cost of prescription? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Total cost. Fifty percent copay 17 would be 50 percent of the total cost. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: "We'll swallow it"? Is 19 that -- that's a pun. (Laughter.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, play on words. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just want to make sure 22 where we are in this thing, you know. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, if the drug companies say 24 we're willing to sell this medication effectively at half 25 price, or near half price. I don't think they're going to do 2-22-10 73 1 that. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Which they're not going to 3 do. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think they're going to do 5 it. They're willing to -- to eat 50 bucks so that they can 6 make 500. 7 MR. MALEK: This is just -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Will they eat 250? I don't think 9 so. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Probably not. 11 MR. MALEK: I think people are getting this 12 confused. It's really not going to affect the patient. The 13 patient's care and patient outcomes are probably going to 14 stay about the same. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'd like to hear that from a 16 doctor. 17 MR. MALEK: What this is going to affect is the 18 drug card company's ability to market it to the physicians 19 and make it so readily available that, you know, they're 20 affecting their bottom line. And, really, the physicians 21 don't generally have a problem with this, 'cause they're used 22 to it. They're used to it with every fully insured program 23 that's out there right now. And so, again, the patients are 24 not going to suffer in this scenario. What we're trying to 25 do is keep the drug card companies from getting into the 2-22-10 74 1 county's pocket. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Then let a doctor tell us 3 that, not a provider. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Tell you what, Sheriff. If you can 5 bring one in here at quarter till 2:00, we'll listen to him. 6 We'll table this matter until then. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think it's a little short 8 notice, Judge, and I think you know that. Trying to get a 9 doctor to give up that two weeks notice, trying to talk to 10 one to get them to come up, and table it till the next agenda 11 I think would be wiser and fairer to the employees. That's 12 what I have to say. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask a question. All 14 seven of these drugs have alternatives or generics? 15 MR. MALEK: Yes, sir. 16 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What -- Ms. Hyde, what 18 steps have we taken to help our employees understand how to 19 effect a change in their prescriptions from whatever -- the 20 Nexium to a generic? What steps have we taken? Because I 21 don't -- there is confusion there. And my point is that 22 whatever we need to do to help them understand how to do 23 this, and when to do this, so that they don't -- don't end up 24 in front of the pharmacist with a whole bunch of confusing 25 things that maybe they don't understand the process, how can 2-22-10 75 1 we simplify that so that they do take the steps necessary to 2 at least try to switch from a name-brand to a generic? 3 MS. HYDE: Well, for the last three years during 4 open enrollment, I've talked about Nexium, number one. I've 5 used that as the pill of choice. And each time I've seen 6 y'all in there, y'all are nodding your head. But I can also 7 tell you that, going back, there are certain times when we go 8 out, we sends out e-mails. Whenever we get the chance, we 9 talk about it with the employees. We talk about it 10 one-on-one. I don't have permission, but I can tell you here 11 in the last month, we've talked with six people about this to 12 make sure that they understood before they did their new 13 year, got their new scrips, and, "What do I need to do 14 if...?" What do I need to do to make sure that the doctors 15 understand? Well, the first one came back with the coupon. 16 I mean, it's trying to stay with the education of the 17 employees as well as making sure that people understand, this 18 is not to hurt anyone. Yes, we can turn around and we can 19 say we're not going to do these seven drugs. That's the 20 simplest thing. That's the simplest thing in the world. We 21 just say, "Nope, we're not going to cover those drugs." That 22 is not unusual. That's not farfetched. But if we can get 23 people to understand, through education, through talking with 24 them, through showing them, through giving them things for 25 them to read which they don't file 13, then, you know, I can 2-22-10 76 1 tell you I feel like we've done a pretty darn good job of 2 trying to talk to people one-on-one when it comes to their 3 scrips, when it comes to things like this. Or working with 4 them, when they see that it's going to cost them out the 5 wazoo. We talked about it when we were doing this. So, 6 although I -- I just respectfully disagree with the Sheriff, 7 we talked about this during -- during budget; we talked about 8 it during the RFP's. We talked about it when we brought them 9 in here. We talked about it during the bid process, that we 10 were going to have to monitor this closely this year. We 11 only have so much money. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, you're preaching to 13 the choir here. We understand that. And all those 14 discussions that you relate are discussions that took place 15 here in the courtroom. My point is, the discussion needs to 16 take place with the employees so they have a clear, more 17 concise understanding of what they have to do, or how to do 18 what we'd like for them to do. 19 MS. HYDE: Ms. Pieper, you told me I could use you. 20 Can you -- can you maybe help answer Commissioner Williams' 21 question? Do you feel like you got enough information to try 22 to make an informed decision and try to work with your 23 physician? 24 MS. PIEPER: Yes, let me -- let me explain -- 25 where's the little paper at? This little thing that she 2-22-10 77 1 keeps waving around, it's got my name on it. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does it really? 3 MS. PIEPER: It does. So, last week, I go to the 4 doctor. The doctor says Nexium. I say huh-uh, we can't do 5 Nexium; we have to do something different because of the 6 insurance. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 8 MS. PIEPER: So then his little P.A. comes out with 9 this little card. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 11 MS. PIEPER: And explains to me that, oh, you can 12 get 50 bucks off. I'm going, "Okay. That'll work, then." 13 So I go to the pharmacy, and it only costs me $5, and I think 14 something's not right, so I come back and tell Eva. And she 15 says, "Uh-huh, that's the new thing that the drug companies 16 are doing now. You only pay $5, but now they're fixing to 17 bill Kerr County for the remainder." I'm like, "Oh." Light 18 bulb just went off. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We understand that. 20 MS. PIEPER: So -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's not the coupon I'm -- 22 I'm driving at, because that's pretty obvious. They're 23 dangling a carrot on a stick in front of -- in front of the 24 employees, saying, "Look at the savings we're going to give 25 you." That's great. That's fine, and most people will take 2-22-10 78 1 it. But the point is, we have to educate them that there is 2 a process they have to go through -- they must go through to 3 -- to make whatever changes their doctor will agree for them 4 to make from brands to generics. How do we do that? That's 5 my question. 6 MS. PIEPER: Well, now that I know about this card 7 and that they're trying to come back with Kerr County on 8 there, I'm back talking with my doctor and the pharmacist. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or maybe a new doctor. 10 MS. PIEPER: Well, this one is a new doctor; that's 11 why we're having to go through this all over this again. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you something, 13 Ms. Hyde. I know the HIPAA laws are touchy. Is there some 14 way that we can require our employees to take some kind of 15 little form along to sit down and go over this with the 16 doctor that -- that Kerr County Commissioners Court, or 17 particularly the Judge -- not us; we're too nice, but the 18 Judge is requiring that -- that they're -- that you're going 19 through this process, and get -- try to get, or maybe ask the 20 doctor to sign off on it, that he has been visited with about 21 it? I mean, can you do something like that? 22 MS. HYDE: We can request that employees do it. I 23 mean, we can make it part of the policy, if that's what you 24 guys want to do. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or would it be better to 2-22-10 79 1 bring all the employees into the same room with us, and let's 2 have the come-to-Jesus thing with them? Or -- I mean, 3 there's got to be a way to do this. This education issue, I 4 think, is where I'm going. 5 MS. HYDE: I think that -- y'all know I'm pretty 6 tactless most of the time. And I'm trying very hard. 7 Unfortunately, because we don't have buy-in from elected and 8 appointed officials to this issue, it's not being sold to the 9 employees. It's not being sold to them in a manner that they 10 can understand. They hear the H.R. rep over here telling 11 them one thing. Commissioners Court is saying, got to save 12 money. And it becomes an issue, not because of education. 13 They're not hearing us because they think we don't give a 14 crap, when that's as far from the truth as possible. So, 15 maybe the come-to-Jesus -- I don't know. My deal is, I don't 16 think they truly understand how much people care about them, 17 because my gut tells me I ought to do what we used to do in 18 the public sector. You take all of the drugs that cost you 19 and you whack them. You just whack them. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whack? 21 MS. HYDE: Whack them. They're not covered. 22 Because then what happens -- when you hit somebody's 23 pocketbook, what happens? They listen. And that's 24 unfortunate, but we're adults. You know, and I'm trying to 25 maintain that adult. These aren't children. Are we doctors? 2-22-10 80 1 No, we're not. Is it medical necessity for some folks to 2 take these prescriptions? Absolutely. But is it for 100 3 percent of your employees? No, sir, it's not. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let met follow up on 5 Commissioner Baldwin's question at this point. And I may be 6 -- I may be treading on some real thin water here in terms of 7 HIPAA and so forth, and if I am, County Attorney, you or 8 somebody else say, "Slow down, big guy." But -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you the big guy in this? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, you are. You're bigger 11 than I am. 12 MS. HYDE: He's the big guy. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would it be possible -- 14 without violating HIPAA or any other type of federal 15 regulations with respect to privacy and medical issues, would 16 it be possible at -- at open enrollment time, for it to be a 17 requirement of the County, as a policy, a requirement that in 18 order to participate in next year's prescription program, you 19 have to have, prior to open enrollment, conferred with your 20 doctor on every single drug you take to determine whether or 21 not there is a generic, or whether they will allow you to 22 take a generic, and you bring that proof to open enrollment 23 for participation in the next one? 24 MR. MALEK: No. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No what? 2-22-10 81 1 MR. MALEK: No, you can't do that. 2 MS. HYDE: We can't do -- 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Violation of federal law? 4 MR. MALEK: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 6 MR. MALEK: Let me add a couple things. I think 7 this maybe answers your question. One of the things that 8 we're going to do -- you mentioned this -- is the drug card 9 company, in this case Script Care, the vendor, has mailers 10 that they're going to -- that we can use, and we have some 11 payroll stuffers. Those are going to be some things that 12 we're going to do to introduce the step therapy, should it 13 get approved. So, the first thing that happens is anybody 14 who's getting one of these drugs is going to get a mailer; 15 it's going to explain how the new process is going to work, 16 'cause they have all the addresses. They know who's all 17 taking all the drugs. That keeps us out of the process of, 18 you know, any HIPAA violations. The second thing is, we do 19 know that the doctors have an organization here, and it's 20 called a P.H.O. It's all related to the hospital. And we 21 did mention this to them when we met with them recently, and 22 we can now have access to them, and we'll try to give them 23 information about our plan that will help them then 24 distribute this down the line to their member doctors. So, 25 we do have some access to be able to basically advertise 2-22-10 82 1 this, that we're making this change. And so those would be 2 the ways that we're going to try to, you know, notify 3 employees and the physician community, which we think would 4 have a big impact. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I would say this would 6 be the last-ditch effort before they get whacked. That's my 7 -- that's my opinion. Now, if -- the Judge is right. You 8 know, if people start having to pay for their own scrips, 9 they're going to be more careful about what they take, and 10 they're going to be more inquisitive about generics. I'd be 11 one of them. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, absolutely. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And -- but, you know, I think 14 that at some point, the employees that -- that don't 15 intentionally abuse the system, the doctors help us with it 16 by their prescriptions. And -- but if the employees are 17 aware, it's like what you're saying, Bill. You know, what's 18 out there? And is there a generic for what you've been 19 prescribed? 20 MS. PIEPER: I think if we had a list of those 21 seven drugs, and then a list of the alternatives, or whatever 22 they're called, that would help. Because, like, when I went 23 to the doctor, and the doctor says Nexium, and I'm going -- 24 you know, up there having a cow, and he says, "Well, so what 25 generic do you want?" I'm going, "Well, I don't know what 2-22-10 83 1 they're called." So then he has to take time to go through 2 his computer to find -- you know, so I think it would just -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just gets crazier by the 4 minute. 5 MS. PIEPER: It does. He gets upset 'cause he has 6 to find a generic. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What he just said, why don't 8 -- because we've only changed it for what, two months now so 9 far, three months that it's been changed, and what he just 10 said about the physicians having their group here and being 11 able to put stuff and get access to them, why doesn't that 12 avenue go first with the physicians, instead of changing our 13 plan again, and see if the physicians get a little bit more 14 education and let them make the choice. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We just keep paying more. We 16 keep paying this exorbitant cost for people that don't know 17 that it's costing the county a huge amount of money. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But you made a -- 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They'll lose it if we keep 20 doing it. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But you made a change two 22 months ago; we haven't had time. She just saw one report and 23 one more is it. Give the -- the chance for the physicians to 24 get educated, and let the physicians talk to their patients 25 and give us the forms we'll carry to them. 2-22-10 84 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Physicians are already 2 educated. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I don't have a problem. 4 If it needs to be done, instead of an insurance telling us 5 what -- let our physicians be part of this. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I can say this; that I 7 have a -- my doctor's appointment tomorrow morning, early. 8 And I'm -- and it's not going to be a pleasant thing anyway, 9 'cause I haven't lost a lot of weight like he wanted me to, 10 so it's going to be my annual knock-down-drag-out with him. 11 But one of the things I'm going to do is I'm going to take 12 this question to him, and I want to know. And if he -- if he 13 -- if his staff offers me one of those silly little cards, 14 which I think is totally, completely wrong -- you know, it's 15 a drug company. I don't know; I just don't like it kind of 16 stuff. And then I'm going to have my visit with my doctor 17 about this issue. Then I'll be ready to come back and vote 18 on it. But I'm not going to vote until I have that talk with 19 him. I want to hear both sides. And, no, I will not ask him 20 to come in here. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Just -- Commissioner, instead of 22 being on defense, as you anticipated being, you can be on the 23 offense when you go in there -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly right. I'm 25 going to come in there and start screaming at him right off 2-22-10 85 1 the bat. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is that the way to counter 3 the non-weight loss deal? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, we're going to try. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Best defense is a good 6 offense? 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't know. I just think 10 that the employees need to be aware. I don't think they're 11 doing this intentionally. It's the drug companies that are 12 being intentional about their action. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: No question about that. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They're causing the big 15 expense to be passed right on to the county. That's pretty 16 much -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think there's some -- 18 some elements of our employee group who just don't care, or 19 don't want to take the trouble to find out or to move it 20 forward, kick the can down the road, if you will. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I don't believe that 22 they realize they're playing with fire. They could be 23 playing with not having those drugs available to them at the 24 County's expense when they really need them. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What they don't know -- all 2-22-10 86 1 they see is the copay. They have no idea what the cost is to 2 the county. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Exactly. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hyde has that information 5 available as to what those drugs really cost. She made it 6 available to us a number of months ago on a -- a low-dosage 7 prescription, a high-dosage prescription. And you look at 8 those numbers, and you -- you understand the problem. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: It's really, really -- it will jump 11 off the page at you. 12 MS. HYDE: The other group that I guess I could get 13 in here would be the retirees, because they understand this 14 right here, probably better than anybody. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Yeah. 16 MS. HYDE: Because one of the things that they 17 are -- they are so great about during their open enrollment 18 is discussing, "How do we save money on our prescriptions?" 19 'Cause not only do they understand that the plan is impacted; 20 their pockets are impacted. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the point the Judge 22 was making. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Any other -- 24 MS. GRINSTEAD: Just as a suggestion, 'cause I know 25 Eva talked at the beginning about we all have to go to these 2-22-10 87 1 mandatory meetings in the next couple days. And, again, I 2 don't know if she can or not, but I do feel -- I don't take 3 any of those, but I would never guess in a million years that 4 one prescription is $600 a month. Is there any way she can 5 share that information? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 7 MS. GRINSTEAD: So the employees know, yeah, it's 8 costing you 55 or 5, but it's costing the county 600. And if 9 we keep going at that pace, eventually they could all be 10 taken off. I mean, it might be an eye-opener for the 11 employee to understand, 'cause like I said, I would have 12 never guessed. That is ridiculous for a prescription. But 13 as an employee, if I were paying a $5 copay, I wouldn't be 14 thinking about it. But if I'm told, "Hey, you know, next 15 year you might be paying for all of it yourself," I mean, it 16 just might -- and since she's going to have all the employees 17 over the next couple days, can she share that information 18 with them? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And you can take that one 20 step further. You can have that illustration of what the 21 copay is and what the name brand is, and here's an 22 illustration of what a similar generic would cost. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You can take it one step 25 further. 2-22-10 88 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 2 MS. HARGIS: I want to add one other thing. What 3 they can do too is -- I know my husband has been looking at 4 this on his own, because, you know, I'm to that point. Give 5 out these flyers where you can buy it yourself if -- you 6 know, if you want to say on that, the supplemental thing 7 where you can order them from Canada or from wherever, so 8 that they know that if they just determine they're going to 9 buy it, that we won't pay it. 10 MS. HYDE: We would never tell them to order from 11 Canada or Mexico. 12 MS. HARGIS: I'm saying -- 13 MS. HYDE: We would never tell our employees to 14 order from Canada or Mexico. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: We need to fold this up pretty 16 quick. Do we have anything -- 17 MS. LAVENDER: Let me just make one quick 18 suggestion. If the -- if it continues to be a problem, raise 19 the copay on those seven, or any other designated 20 prescriptions new on the market. Because the doctors are 21 taught to try the new stuff. And as they develop better 22 pharmaceuticals, the better ones often work better than ones 23 that, you know, have become over-the-counter or whatever. 24 So -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: We did raise the copay. 2-22-10 89 1 MS. LAVENDER: On these particular -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The response was this vendor card, 3 and boom. 4 MS. LAVENDER: Raise them a little bit more. 5 MR. MALEK: The cards will get bigger. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: The next option is to put it on a 7 percentage basis. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Need to educate your employees 9 on the vendor cards, what it does to the county's plan. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And not use it. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have 13 anything further to offer in connection with this? Okay, 14 we'll be in recess for about 15 minutes. 15 (Recess taken from 10:50 a.m. to 11:08 a.m.) 16 - - - - - - - - - - 17 (Judge Tinley left the meeting.) 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me bring the 19 Commissioners Court back to order here, please. We have a 20 timed item, an 11 o'clock timed item, and I apologize; we 21 were running a little bit late. But it's Item 1.11, 22 presentation by David Mendez with Bickerstaff, Heath, 23 Delgado, Acosta, LLP, regarding the 2011 redistricting. 24 David Mendez. 25 MR. MENDEZ: Commissioner, good morning, members of 2-22-10 90 1 the Court. I'll take a few minutes of your time this morning 2 to kind of run through the redistricting issues that you'll 3 be facing next year, answer questions you might have. And, 4 basically, the presentation I'm going to do for you up here 5 on the screen is what I've been using with the County Judges 6 and Commissioners Association. I did it at Far West Texas 7 and Panhandle and West Texas, and so it's kind of designed to 8 answer the questions you might have about redistricting. 9 What I'll try to do is point out your obligation during the 10 redistricting process, give you the critical timeline that 11 applies to making decisions on this process, and then 12 describe some steps that you might undertake to reduce the 13 cost of this project, which occurs in 2011. And it's very 14 dependent on election precincts in terms of savings because 15 of the administrative costs of running those election 16 precincts, hiring staff and machines and all that to have 17 them. So, if you can minimize the number of precincts you 18 have, you can save dollars there. 19 I know that you're evaluating different firms for 20 this, so kind of at the end of this, I'll explain what sets 21 us apart from other people that do this kind of work. And 22 we'd love to help the county go through this. We helped you 23 in the '91, 2001 rounds, and we're ready to go in and process 24 the 2010 data as soon as it comes out. One of the questions 25 I had, and I have it regularly, is, well, is there any cost 2-22-10 91 1 or time that the County's looking at in 2010 to get up to 2 speed? And there's absolutely none from our standpoint, 3 'cause I got your information within the computer systems 4 that we use already. So, basically, I'm waiting for 2011, 5 when the data will be released by the Department of Justice 6 so we can get going. So, there's no kind of getting up to 7 speed costs associated with getting this project going. 8 There are three obligations that you guys can look 9 at, or three -- three elements that you can look at as you go 10 into 2011 redistricting. We have to make sure the four 11 county commissioner districts are balanced. When the 2011 12 data comes out, you had about 43,000 population back in 2001. 13 It looks like the county might have grown by another 6,000 or 14 7,000 people during the decade, so you're looking at a little 15 bit under 50,000 population here for -- for 2010, 2011 16 census. The census actually gets taken on April 1st of this 17 year, gets computed during the rest of the year, and gets 18 released to us in 2011. So, you've got a little bit of 19 growth going here. It might not have occurred equally among 20 the four commissioner precincts, so we got to balance them. 21 The other thing that you need to do is, if you change the 22 elect -- the commissioner precinct lines, you've got to 23 adjust your county election precincts to kind of match. 24 There are some other things you've got to look at 25 on county election precincts in terms of how many voters are 2-22-10 92 1 there? How easy is it for them to get to polling places? 2 Those kinds of things. This is an opportunity to fix those. 3 Finally, you can look at justice precincts if you want to, 4 just from an administrative standpoint. Those things -- 5 those precincts for constables and justices of the peace 6 serve for the convenience of the voters of -- the taxpayers 7 of Kerr County, so the Court has the jurisdiction to make 8 adjustments to those if you need to change territory around 9 to make those easier and better to work for your community. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know that they -- 11 they're the same boundaries as the commissioners. 12 MR. MENDEZ: Sure. And in many instances, if you 13 go -- you can adjust both at the same time, you know, so in 14 Kerr County, we could -- if you decided to modify your county 15 election precincts -- I mean county commissioner precincts, 16 we could modify the justice precincts at the same time. 17 We've just got to make sure we don't draw a justice of the 18 peace or a constable out of their precincts while we're going 19 at it. And that's just a little part of the jigsaw puzzle. 20 There are four legal requirements. This is an intrinsically 21 legal process you're doing. This is not just a 22 number-crunching exercise we've got to get through. Four 23 legal steps, if you will. One person/one vote requirement is 24 really the one about that each commissioner precinct should 25 have roughly the same amount of territory, so that if the 2-22-10 93 1 folks that live in Precinct 1 are -- are roughly equal to the 2 ones that live in 2, 3, and 4, then they have the same voting 3 power in electing one of you guys to sit here at the dais to 4 represent them. If we were substantially out of balance, 5 that's a problem. We've got to stay within 10 percent 6 between the most populous district and the least populous 7 district. 8 Two requirements of the Voting Rights Act apply to 9 Kerr County as we go through this. One of them is Section 5 10 of the Voting Rights Act. It basically is the one that 11 you're familiar with. Every time you change a polling 12 location, every time you change a county election precinct, 13 the County Clerk comes before you to get approval to get it 14 changed, and then she sends it to Washington, D.C., to get 15 approved by the Department of Justice. The redistricting 16 plan is the same. When you modify or rebalance your 17 commissioner precincts and justice precincts, as we'll be 18 doing next year, then we will send that to Washington and get 19 it precleared. Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act really is 20 an important one for Kerr County, and we had experience with 21 that in the 2001 session. You want to protect the -- and 22 make sure you don't harm the ability of minority voters 23 within your community to elect candidates of their choice. 24 Right now, there's a county commissioner precinct that might 25 have 20 or 30 percent Hispanic population under the 2001 2-22-10 94 1 census. The estimates for 2010 suggest that that population 2 has grown a little bit. As we go into the 2011 redistricting 3 cycle, you want to make sure that you don't retrogress or 4 backslide on represent -- on their representation abilities. 5 That kind of cuts into and -- and fits into the 6 fourth bullet -- I mean the last bullet up there, which has 7 to do with the requirements of the 14th amendment. The other 8 side of the coin is that you don't examine those race issues 9 in such -- so much that you adversely affect the Anglo voters 10 in your communities. There are lawsuits going on right in 11 the neighborhood over these kind of issues. Just in Boerne, 12 city of Boerne down the road, they -- the City had adopted a 13 single-member district plan, and trying to address minority 14 voting rights there and create a district from which 15 minorities could be elected. A group of voters came in from 16 the city challenging that, and saying that it adversely 17 impacts the Anglo voters in their community. So, you're kind 18 of having to walk a tightrope, if you will, of looking at all 19 your voters' rights within your community. 20 Normally, what I do is go through a more detailed 21 analysis for -- on each of the four principles I just 22 described. If you don't mind, I'll kind of whip through 23 these, since we've talked about them. There's a 10 percent 24 deviation requirement there. I've described what the Voting 25 Rights Act does for you guys. And I've described that new 2-22-10 95 1 set of cases out there that are occurring for -- related to 2 Anglo voters. So, what I really wanted to kind of jump to 3 here -- and you have a copy of this in your materials 4 there -- is a timeline. I want to put the whole timeline up 5 here real quick so that we can -- you can visualize what 6 we're trying to get you through. We are -- in 2009-'10, 7 right here at the beginning of the process, we're waiting for 8 the census to come out. It should be released around January 9 or February of 2011. Upon its release, we would provide 10 you -- assuming you hired us to help you with this process, 11 we would provide you with a report, what's called an initial 12 assessment to show you if the precincts are out of balance, 13 and how you would -- what issues you might need to deal with 14 from a legal standpoint, remind you of those legal issues. 15 As you go through the summer of next year, about the 16 beginning of the summer, in April or May, we would -- if you 17 have to redistrict, you've got to rebalance them, we'd start 18 a process to get through it with the community. 19 What you need to do is adopt some kind of common 20 guidelines and criteria, some policy, so that everybody's on 21 the same page if they want to draw with you. You're going to 22 have to come up with the plan. Ultimately, you're -- 23 you're -- the buck stops with you guys in picking a plan to 24 be drawn, and so you're going to solicit input from the 25 community about that plan, if they want to criticize it or 2-22-10 96 1 give you input on it. And you want them to be comparing 2 apples to apples, oranges to oranges. So, during the 3 beginning of the summer, we'll present you with some 4 guidelines and criteria that you can give the community as to 5 how we're going to draw. Once you adopt those, I'll sit with 6 each of the members of the Court and find out if your 7 district is over- or under-populated and what areas you might 8 be interested in giving up or taking on, assuming you need to 9 give up population or take on additional territory. County 10 road miles might matter, where your precinct barns are, what 11 kind of facilities are in your area, which voters live there. 12 All of those are legitimate inquiries. 13 Technologically, things have changed a lot from the 14 last decade. When we did this in the past, I'd come out 15 here, or one of my colleagues would come out here, and we'd 16 sit with you in your office and we'd get your information on 17 a map. We'd take it to Austin and we'd draw. Now we can sit 18 with you -- you can sit at your desk, on your laptop, log in 19 by -- into a session with us like we are here, and I can have 20 my staff drawing with your input. And they could hand you 21 the mouse so you can say, "Well, I need to move this here." 22 You can mark the parts of the map you want us to look at in 23 more detail, how many people live here, that kind of stuff. 24 We can do that live over the phone. We could have a work 25 session with the Court once we get to an illustrative map 2-22-10 97 1 where my drawer and I could be doing this from Austin, and 2 you guys can be watching us draw. You can be listening to us 3 over the conference phone. So, it saves on the travel part 4 of that if there's any cost there. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fantastic. In other 6 words, we could sit down and carve out Riverhill Country Club 7 and put it in my precinct, and Bill would never know. 8 MR. MENDEZ: Well, at least not till you get into 9 the meeting. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Trust me, I'd know it. 12 MR. MENDEZ: Eventually, all the chickens would 13 come home to roost. But -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 15 MR. MENDEZ: Again, technologically, it's very 16 exciting, 'cause we can do things in a -- in a much more 17 efficient and cost-effective way, and that just saves 18 taxpayer dollars. So, by the end of the summer, the idea is 19 we would present an illustrative plan that I've built based 20 upon input from the Court. We'd present it in a public 21 session; we'd get the input from the folks, and then you all, 22 based upon that input, can adopt it, modify it, change it, 23 throw it out, get another one. If we finish by the end of 24 the summer, we can submit it to Washington and get it 25 precleared. The idea is to get it done in time so that the 2-22-10 98 1 primaries in 2012 are clean and unaffected. So, by January 1 2 of 2012, we want to make sure everything's precleared so 3 whoever's up in 2012 for the primaries can go about their 4 business of filing for the new precincts and going on. So, 5 that -- that's the basic approach there. 6 The thing that, really, a lot of these blocks are 7 associated with on the top -- and they're hard to read; 8 they're easier to read on your chart there -- is the County 9 Clerk has to take into consideration the county election 10 precincts, and I'm going to get over there right now. Each 11 county election precinct cannot contain territory from more 12 than one county commissioner precinct, justice precinct, 13 congressional district, state representative district, or any 14 city ward, those kinds of things. So, they've got a really 15 tough job to do at the County Clerk's office in bringing 16 forward county election precincts that meet these 17 specifications without adversely affecting you. I don't have 18 it in there right now. I had a -- a little map that shows 19 the overlay of these lines. But it can get very challenging. 20 The problem is that usually the Legislature's the last one to 21 finish drawing the state -- the state rep districts and the 22 congressional districts, and so we're kind of waiting around 23 for them to finish before we draw your election precincts, 24 but that's one of the things we focus on. 25 We figure in most communities, if you can save one 2-22-10 99 1 precinct from being created, one extra county election 2 precinct from being created, it'll pretty much, over the cost 3 of the -- course of the decade, the cost of -- the cost 4 savings from not having that precinct will pretty much pay 5 for your whole redistricting process. It's -- by the time 6 you buy machines, you pay for workers to manage it, you build 7 the ballot stiles for it and all that, over the decade you 8 can really save a bunch of money by minimizing the number of 9 election precincts. So, that's basically how we approach the 10 process for you all. I have four or five sets of material 11 there for you. The boundary, the annexation survey process 12 and all of this is about finished. If you all had been 13 listening -- 'cause I was here a year ago in early 14 January-February of -- of 2009, and we talked briefly about 15 redistricting, and I think you all indicated to me y'all are 16 doing all this boundary and annexation survey stuff with the 17 Census Bureau, so I think you're covered. So, your -- your 18 maps and files should be in order at -- with the -- with the 19 Census Bureau. 20 They're -- they changed mapping styles over at the 21 Census Bureau. In the old days, they were following some 22 federal geography, and then they shifted over to the U.S.G.S. 23 quad maps. Are you familiar with those topographical maps of 24 the county? They've shifted over to those. And it's created 25 some problems that we noticed, like in Travis County. The 2-22-10 100 1 blue lines and the red lines should really be matching up, 2 but because they're using different formats of mapping, we're 3 seeing some noise, some -- some failure of alignment. And 4 one of the things we might see here in Kerr County is these 5 kind of problems, in town usually, where a street may not 6 line up exactly with what's on the ground here. And so we'll 7 deal -- my staff will deal with that. And it's one of those 8 things where you can see -- like, in this closeup in El Paso, 9 sometimes they don't even bear any relation to each other. 10 But our staff kind of will work through that with you and 11 solve those kind of problems. This is what I was describing 12 about doing it long distance from -- from where we are. But 13 that's -- that's my basic spiel that we do for the county 14 judges and commissioners. 15 I gave you a copy of a paper in my packet that I 16 gave the Conference of Urban Counties here; they published it 17 in October when we had our annual -- they had their annual 18 meeting there in San Antonio. It's got all the basic 19 questions you're going to get from voters; you know, what 20 is -- when does the census come out and how does it affect 21 Kerr County, and what are the Commissioners going to do? And 22 so if you need that, if you want to keep it handy, that's a 23 good kind of go-to sheet on material. I guess the only thing 24 I want to conclude with is what sets us apart from other guys 25 that do this kind of stuff. Our firm's 30 years old. We've 2-22-10 101 1 been representing counties all over that period of time. We 2 drew -- we represent every governmental body from the State 3 Legislature to the county level to the local -- the smaller 4 level, like the school districts and cities and -- and folks 5 like that, that have the single-member districts. That job 6 and that kind of work has always been in defending 7 governmental bodies. 8 A lot of my colleagues will come forward and say, 9 "Well, we've been doing this for 30 years," or whatever. 10 Well, with all due respect, all of the experience that a lot 11 of these guys have is in suing governmental bodies. I mean, 12 they have been redistricting, if you will, folks, because 13 they file voting rights lawsuits against counties, cities, 14 and schools. And now that there aren't a lot of those 15 lawsuits being brought, they're sort of shifting sides, and 16 want to do the -- the drawing of the county commissioner and 17 city council. Well, that kind of experience is very 18 different. We approach it from trying to save taxpayer 19 dollars, trying to do something that's going to defend the 20 county. For every action you take on one side of the county 21 here on these -- on these voting rights issues, there is 22 another side of that from a -- an equal protection of all 23 other voters in your community, and you have to have a 24 balanced view of those. And I think that that's what our 25 experience does. 2-22-10 102 1 We have 10 or 12 folks in my firm that are 2 available; they're lawyers who are available to work with you 3 on these projects, and then we'll have about eight drawers 4 who will actually be mapping this stuff. So, a lot of the 5 other firms have one or two people; you know, that's all the 6 lawyers they have in their firm, and they're going to cover 7 the world with that, you know. We staff up for this. We 8 have enough backup guys so you're not waiting around for us 9 to have time for you. We're going to be here when you're 10 going to have a meeting. Are there any questions? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: David, I believe your firm 12 did the redistricting for us in 2001. 13 MR. MENDEZ: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't recall what the 15 cost that we paid for that is. Do you know? 16 MR. MENDEZ: I know it was right in the range of 17 $36,000. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 19 MR. MENDEZ: That -- and I'll tell you, there were 20 several issues -- we were just visiting on that -- several 21 issues that came up. Y'all had a plan filed by a group out 22 of San Antonio, attempting to draw a predominantly Hispanic 23 district, and so we had some exercise that we went through 24 with that group. We also went through three or four election 25 precincts, like, iterations -- 2-22-10 103 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 2 MR. MENDEZ: -- of drawings. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I recall. 4 MR. MENDEZ: So there were some -- some issues that 5 round. Hopefully, there won't be here this round. I can 6 give you a precise budget based upon what I think the number 7 of meetings are going to be and all that. If -- if y'all are 8 getting ready to vote on this at a future meeting, I can 9 present y'all with a budget. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It won't be long, I think. 11 It would be wise to get in some numbers. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think it will be very 13 helpful. 14 MR. MENDEZ: I'll bring you a budget and I'll mail 15 it to the Judge, and that way he can distribute it to the 16 Court. And it will lay out exactly how many meetings I 17 anticipate, just from the experience we had last time. And, 18 like I said, there isn't any start-up cost, 'cause the -- the 19 technical information's in the computer. Unless you changed 20 your precincts during the decade, which -- or polling 21 locations, things like that, I doubt that there's been much 22 change during the decade. So -- 23 MS. PIEPER: There hasn't been. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me refine the question 25 just a little bit. We've had some other proposals; we've had 2-22-10 104 1 some flat -- flat fee proposals. I'm not certain that the 2 flat fee proposal contemplates really serious issues that 3 arise during the process, like you mentioned that we 4 encountered back in 2001. And if that is not the case, then 5 obviously, the County would be obligated for additional 6 funding, correct? 7 MR. MENDEZ: That is so. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How about you? How about 9 your firm? If we do encounter significant issues again, as 10 we did back in 2001, how does that -- how is that handled 11 with respect to fees for service? 12 MR. MENDEZ: All of our proposals are hourly, and 13 so when I build you a budget, I'll tell you what each of 14 those tasks -- you've seen all those blocks of tasks 15 throughout the summer. I lay out for each activity how many 16 hours I anticipate it's going to take. If something happens, 17 I mean, a lot of this is outside of the Court's control and 18 outside of our control. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of course. 20 MR. MENDEZ: If somebody comes before the Court and 21 -- and urges a different approach, and we have to expend -- 22 the Court has to expend energy figuring that out, and asks us 23 to do something, well, obviously, it's going to change the 24 price. So, what I'll do is I will include, and in the 25 appropriate places on that budget, what I think it will take 2-22-10 105 1 for those steps. And then you look at it, and if you think 2 I'm not being realistic about it or whatever, you know, you 3 tell me. But, basically, all I can do is build you a budget 4 just the same way you build a budget to fix the road or to 5 fix -- to fix the roof on the building. Once you get up 6 there, if one of the trusses is broken on the roof, or you've 7 got a -- you know, a different thing, well, you know -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The cost goes up. We 9 understand that. Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Anything else? I have a 11 question, David. When we talk about deviation, -- 12 MR. MENDEZ: Mm-hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- and the law allows us to 14 have a 10 percent deviation, is that -- are we referring to 15 minority issues only? 16 MR. MENDEZ: Total population, Commissioner. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 18 MR. MENDEZ: When we do the 10 percent comparison 19 between the four commissioners' precincts, we're looking at 20 total population. I'm going to see if I have this chart here 21 that explains that in a lot of detail. Usually -- let me go 22 back here -- I usually keep a chart like that in here. No, 23 it's not in this one. But I -- let's say there's 40,000 24 people in the county, just to be simple. And let's say that 25 an ideal population size is going to be 10,000 population in 2-22-10 106 1 each precinct. If yours has 10,500 and yours has 9,300, then 2 yours is 5 percent over and yours is 7 percent under. The -- 3 you take the 7 and the 5, add them together, and you take -- 4 get rid of the pluses and minuses, and that is a 12 percent 5 deviation. You've got to bring it into balance. And so what 6 you might do in a situation like that, you take a couple of 7 the 500 that you're over -- let's say you move two of those 8 hundreds over into the commissioner's precinct that was 9 under, and that'll get you within 10 percent; it will be at 10 9 percent then. And so that's how you do it. But it's the 11 total population. Minorities don't come into that. 12 Citizenship doesn't come into that. The only thing that 13 might come in is if you have a federal or state penitentiary 14 in the county, and I don't think you guys have one of those. 15 But in some counties, if there's federal prisoners out there, 16 they get counted, because they're -- they are residing in 17 that county. And so what we have to do is go back those guys 18 out, because I have some counties where, really, I could draw 19 whole county commissioner precincts out of a prison. And, 20 you know -- 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That would be Buster's. 22 (Laughter.) 23 MR. MENDEZ: So -- but we don't -- that's the only 24 other aspect. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. And then -- so 2-22-10 107 1 we had an earlier firm come in and visit with us that said 2 that we were 20 percent -- 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Out of whack. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- out of whack, deviation. 5 You know, and I wish I'd have thought of this when he said 6 that, but I didn't. How in the world would he know that? 7 MR. MENDEZ: How would you know? I mean, until the 8 numbers get published -- they haven't gone and -- and they 9 haven't issued the questionnaire yet. It doesn't go out till 10 April; it will be done on April 1st. It's very possible that 11 the -- you know, that there's no deviation; that this is 12 still in balance. The 3,000 or 4,000 or 5,000 people that 13 moved in during the period might have moved in in -- in a 14 proportionate manner to the four of y'all. Out of 100 15 clients we had last round, we had two counties that didn't 16 have to -- that were in balance. One was -- had a population 17 of 10,000. The other one was Dallas County, with almost 18 two million people. Two million people, and they were in 19 balance. I mean, they went ahead and redistricted anyway, 20 because they had other things they wanted to do. But you 21 can't tell. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 23 MR. MENDEZ: There is -- there's no way to tell 24 until the numbers -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think I'm out of balance. 2-22-10 108 1 I think I have a few more than Buster does, so I think he'll 2 probably wind up getting Bear Creek Road. (Laughter.) 3 Completely and totally -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think so. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I already know what I'm 6 going to give to Buster, and it's not Riverhill. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. We need to get 8 this lawyer tuned up here. I can see it coming down the 9 pike. 10 MR. MENDEZ: But I appreciate y'all making time for 11 me. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 13 MR. MENDEZ: If there's no other questions besides 14 the budget, I'll just send that on to you. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that it would be 16 great if you did that. 17 MR. MENDEZ: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, David. Thank you 19 very much. 20 MR. MENDEZ: You're welcome. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's go to Item 1.15; 22 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on personnel 23 issues regarding insurance coverage, privacy officers -- 24 officer, and new business agreement signatures required for 25 Kerr County. Do we want to go into executive session on 2-22-10 109 1 this? 2 MS. HYDE: I don't think so. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ms. Hyde? 4 MS. HYDE: Couple of new things have come out. We 5 signed business agreements with all our insurance folks, but 6 legislation came out on 2/4 that has changed the business 7 agreement legislation. And what that means is, they have 8 something called HITECH, H-I-T-E-C-H, and that HITECH now 9 will hold the vendors just as responsible for privacy 10 information as it holds us accountable. So, in the past, 11 let's just say ABC Corporation, we're sending them 12 information and they're sending us information about 13 prescriptions and who has them and what they're taking. And 14 out there in the worldwide web somehow, between them to me, 15 it gets out there on the worldwide web. If it does, we have 16 to follow certain guidelines now. But they are held just as 17 much responsible as we are. Did I do that in an 18 easy-to-understand method? If it gets out, something like 19 that, then we have to do things like put it in the newspaper, 20 put it on television, put on it the radio. I think y'all 21 might remember when Social Security lost a couple of 22 computers and people's information was out, and it was all 23 over the news, and we'd have to do the same type thing. But 24 on the business agreements, they also want your privacy 25 officer to sign those agreements, and that's me. So, before 2-22-10 110 1 I sign something, we talk to the Judge. Because in the past, 2 the Judge has always signed those, but now they want the 3 privacy officer, so that you guys are kind of insulated and 4 I'm in the -- I'm in the middle. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What does that mean? I 6 mean, they want you to take the fall and leave us alone? 7 MS. HYDE: Oh, no. If I fall, baby, you're coming 8 with me. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I suspected that. 10 MR. MALEK: You don't have the authority to be -- 11 you don't have that authority; it all rests on the privacy 12 officer. 13 MS. BAILEY: Because you're not the privacy 14 officer. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who might that be? Is that 16 a paid position? Do we have somebody on staff? Talk to us. 17 MR. MALEK: That's the privacy officer. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're it? 19 MS. HYDE: Yeah, I'm the privacy officer. I'm just 20 wanting to make sure you understand, this kind of changes how 21 we've done things, and I'd like to get it on the record 22 that -- even just that you understand it, and that I will be 23 bringing stuff to you before we sign it so that you can 24 review it and look at it. It will be the same process; it 25 just won't be the Judge's signature. It will be mine. 2-22-10 111 1 MR. MALEK: Because you're a public entity, the 2 Court has to give Eva permission to sign the document. 3 That's really why we're here. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So that's what we're doing 5 today? 6 MR. MALEK: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're going to authorize 8 Ms. Hyde to be the privacy officer? 9 MS. HYDE: You've already done that. 10 MR. MALEK: She's already the -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What are we doing today? 12 MS. HYDE: Just authorizing me to sign these 13 documents for you. 14 MR. MALEK: To sign the new agreements that 15 changed. 16 MS. HYDE: And there's six. It will be with 17 Wallace -- excuse me, Willis H.R.H., Script Care, Alamo 18 Insurance, DPAS, Data Path, and U.M.R -- there's five. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are we authorizing you to 20 sign documents that we have not seen, or know the contents 21 of? 22 MS. HYDE: Oh. Yeah. The Judge had them. 23 MS. BAILEY: Are these -- Eva, are these just going 24 to be the exact same agreements that are already authorized, 25 just with a different signatory? Seems like the Court could 2-22-10 112 1 authorize you to sign those subject to them being the same 2 agreement. In other words, if it's the same agreement, then 3 you can be authorized to sign them. 4 MS. HYDE: Well, it is, but it isn't. I don't know 5 that I could say that, because the HITECH is in there. 6 That's what's forcing this issue. 7 MR. MALEK: HITECH outlines all the penalties and 8 fines and -- and remedies for violation of HIPPA. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. We're not going 10 to vote on something we haven't seen or that she hasn't 11 signed off on. So -- 12 MS. BAILEY: Is the time crunch such that you 13 can't -- 14 MS. HYDE: Yes. 15 MS. BAILEY: -- bring them -- 16 MS. HYDE: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, what? 18 MR. MALEK: It's supposed to have already been done 19 by the 17th. 20 MS. HYDE: They didn't pass the legislation until 21 2/4. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait a minute. Answer her 23 question. 24 MS. HYDE: I did. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. So, yes, the time 2-22-10 113 1 frame is such -- 2 MS. BAILEY: Such that we need to do this. 3 MS. PIEPER: Right now. 4 MS. BAILEY: You can't bring it back to another 5 session and be in compliance? 6 MR. MALEK: We're not in compliance now. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I won't vote for something 8 like that, I'm sorry. These guys might. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We are not in compliance 10 now because? 11 MR. MALEK: The 17th has already passed, and that 12 was the deadline that the feds gave us to have these 13 documents signed. And, of course, they only gave them to us 14 on the 4th or 5th, probably, and so there wasn't a 15 Commissioners Court meeting in between the time that they 16 issued the regulations and the time that we're now bringing 17 it to the Court. 18 MS. BAILEY: What penalties, if any, are there for 19 us failing to be in compliance in a timely manner? 20 MR. MALEK: That's a good question. 21 MS. HYDE: We don't know. 22 MR. MALEK: We don't know. 23 MS. BAILEY: If there are none, I'd suggest we put 24 it on the next agenda, and let me approve the contracts 25 before then. 2-22-10 114 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's got to be done. 3 She's got to sign off on it before we can do anything. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We need to know the 5 content. 6 MS. HYDE: Same content. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm unable to authorize 8 anybody to sign anything, particularly the County Judge or 9 anybody else, that this Court is not apprized of what it's 10 all about. If it needs to be in executive session, that's 11 where it will be, but whatever. So, how do we get around 12 the -- figure out how we get around it to make it happen. 13 MS. HYDE: Did they put that in, the contract? 14 MS. GRINSTEAD: It's probably in his book. 15 MS. HYDE: Possibly in his book. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So we need to talk to the 17 Judge? Is that what you're saying? 18 MS. HYDE: Can it be approved pending approval by 19 the County Attorney that it's okay? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We've done that, but we 21 usually know what it is that we're sending over for her to 22 review. 23 MS. BAILEY: Let me ask -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not sending a blind 25 document over for review and not knowing the contents. 2-22-10 115 1 MS. HYDE: I think it's in the budget packet. 2 MS. BAILEY: Are the agreements in existence that 3 we could look at and bring it back this afternoon, maybe? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That'd be my suggestion, 5 'cause we're going to come back at 1:30. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can do that. We're back 7 in here at 1:30 or so. 8 MS. BAILEY: I'll look at it during lunch. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Back at 1:30 anyway. We can 10 just recall this item, and be happy to do that. 11 MS. HYDE: Okay. He doesn't -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you mind doing it that 13 quick? I'm sorry to put -- 14 MS. BAILEY: I'll do it. 15 MR. MALEK: It's only two pages. 16 MS. HYDE: Only, like -- one is one page, and one 17 is two pages. 18 MS. BAILEY: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y'all don't do this any 21 more. Do you hear me? 22 MS. HYDE: Tell the -- tell the law not to do that. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you tell them. 24 MR. MALEK: Yeah, the feds, they pass all these 25 laws. It's just -- there's been a rash of it over the last 2-22-10 116 1 two months that we're trying to get complied with. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, I'm serious about that; 3 don't do this crap any more. We -- there's time, like last 4 week or whenever it was you got them, we can come in here any 5 time and have meetings. If it's -- if there's a time frame 6 like that, we can come in any time and have meetings to 7 approve things, okay? All right. Item 1. -- so we're going 8 to come back with 1.15 this afternoon at -- after 1:30. 9 MS. BAILEY: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 1.16, consider, 11 discuss, and take appropriate action on personnel issue 12 regarding the new HIPAA, COBRA, and CHIPRA -- whatever the 13 heck that is -- and other legislative changes requiring 14 mandated notifications required for Kerr County employees. 15 Would you like to go into executive session on that? 16 MS. HYDE: No. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Okay, what do we got? 18 MS. HYDE: Unless you're going to fuss at me again. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I might. 20 MS. HYDE: Okay. In a nutshell, here's what 21 they've done. This same stuff that we just talked about, 22 federal law changed on February 4th. Guess when they got 23 this stuff out? Last week. But we're supposed to be in 24 compliance by the 17th of February. Ain't going to happen. 25 However, things have changed. COBRA notification and COBRA 2-22-10 117 1 rights have changed. This has been reviewed with the Judge 2 as well. And what that means is, this will be the fourth 3 time in two years that the president has expanded COBRA. So, 4 back in 2008, they came out and they said, okay, instead of 5 it being nine months, you're going to give everybody 15 6 months. Oh, and by the way, you got to go back, and anyone 7 that's gone, you have to offer it to them again. In February 8 of 2009, they did the same thing, and they said, oh, and by 9 the way, you get to start all over. So, you got to go back 10 and you got to tell those people again. In October of 2009, 11 they did the same thing, and now in February of 2010, they've 12 done the same thing and they've expanded it again. It 13 continues to grow. It continues to get huge. So, anyone 14 that has left service with Kerr County since October 1st of 15 2008 through February 4th of 2010 gets to redo on COBRA, in a 16 nutshell. And they get -- as an added bonus, we get 15 17 months, okay? Now, there's a couple of stipulations in 18 there, kind of, you know, little tiny, where we could say no, 19 but about 99 percent of it is, we got to say yes. So, we're 20 jumping quickly. This is pretty simple. "You will do this." 21 So, no offense; no, I didn't review it with Ilse. We're 22 doing it. We're sending it out. But all employees have to 23 be notified of it. 24 CHIPRA, it now becomes our responsibility -- and I 25 said something to you about this before, Commissioner 2-22-10 118 1 Baldwin. This is your favorite. The federal and state has 2 now passed something that pushes it back down to the county. 3 It is now our responsibility to notify all employees there's 4 such a thing as CHIPS for the state. Oh, and by the way, we 5 got to tell them where to go and how to get it, immediately. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where do you go? 7 MR. MALEK: To their web site. 8 MS. HYDE: To their web site, and U.S. Department 9 of Health and Human Services. I don't have to draw a map 10 yet. I think that's coming. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 MS. HYDE: We also have to go back and do HIPAA one 13 more time. The new legislation regarding HIPAA is -- is even 14 more hard. In addition, there used to be one tier -- what 15 they called one tier of fines and fees. Those fines and 16 fees, max of $100 -- you get your hand smacked, $100, or a 17 maximum of $15,000. Well, not no more. We got four tiers. 18 They've made it -- you can do it where you really didn't know 19 you were doing anything wrong, and it's 100 bucks, up to 20 15,000, all the way up to -- there is no limit, except for 21 1.5 million, which is pretty huge, and that's Tier 4. And we 22 need to get -- 23 MR. MALEK: Per incident. 24 MS. HYDE: Yeah. That's per incident, by the way. 25 So, if we talk about something four times, that's, like, 2-22-10 119 1 six million. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wonderful. 3 MS. HYDE: So, with these legislative changes, the 4 reason why this is on here is because I've gotten blowback -- 5 that's a good S.O. word -- regarding mandatory meetings, and 6 I need y'all's help. We have to have some of these meetings 7 by law. And I sent out an e-mail this morning explaining why 8 we have to have open enrollment meetings, why we have to have 9 insurance meetings, why we have to have retirement and 457 10 meetings. That's not an Eva thing. I really would rather 11 not sometimes. But it's a mandatory federal or state 12 legislation that has come through and said, "You will do 13 this." This right here is one of those. I need to get the 14 word out to every single employee. They need to sign off 15 that they were told about it. They need to know about open 16 enrollment and insurance. We already did that. Now we have 17 to tell them about 457 and the ramifications of it. So, I do 18 kind of need y'all's help in making sure that this word gets 19 out. If we have to have a mandatory meeting, it's not just 20 because we want to, you know, drink coffee -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How do you want us to help 22 you? What can we do? 23 MS. HYDE: Tell me you support me on this. And if 24 you want, I'll bring every single mandatory meeting here and 25 get y'all to gavel it. 2-22-10 120 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, all right. Let me 2 read the agenda item again. 3 MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Consider, discuss, take 5 appropriate action on personnel issues regarding new HIPAA, 6 COBRA, CHIPRA, and other legislative changes. 7 MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How -- 9 MS. HYDE: Requiring mandated notifications. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. What are the other 11 legislative changes? 12 MS. HYDE: I just told you. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what you were -- 14 MS. HYDE: Right now, yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I thought you were talking 16 about HIPAA. 17 MS. HYDE: It's HIPAA, COBRA, CHIPRA, insurance, 18 457, retirement. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. And so you want 20 us to pass a court order here that says, "Bless thee"? 21 MS. HYDE: You're blessing me, and go forth and 22 conquer. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, how -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you comfortable with 25 this, counselor? 2-22-10 121 1 MS. BAILEY: I don't -- it kind of depends on what 2 the motion is. I mean, I think the appropriate action you 3 take is just to authorize her to -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To notify employees as 5 required by law. 6 MS. BAILEY: Yeah, schedule planned meetings and 7 notify employees as required by law. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The question is how. You 9 can do it by telephone. You can do it by internet. You can 10 do it by mail. You can do it by meeting. 11 MS. HYDE: Meeting. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What are you proposing? 13 MS. HYDE: Meeting. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're proposing meetings 15 to be on county time? Or at 5:01 p.m.? 16 MS. HYDE: Meetings. If I can send these out and 17 get signatures on them and get them back, original 18 signatures, then some of this we can do that way. But the 19 457 -- like, tomorrow, that's been planned; that needs to be 20 sitting down in a chair, understanding it. And that's not 21 for me to do. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Question. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. Your Honor. One 25 thing that has come up, even from other departments on the 2-22-10 122 1 mandatory meetings -- and this is a question for clarity. I 2 believe that -- and Eva's right that she does have to 3 schedule mandatory meetings for these things, and I think 4 that the employees all have to be notified of these mandatory 5 meetings. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It doesn't say mandatory -- 7 mandated meetings; it says mandated notifications. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's right. Now, if that 9 employee -- you know, say he's had 457, and he's had them all 10 this time. He has no changes; he doesn't want no changes, 11 not interested. And this came up not necessarily from my 12 point, but from another member that's not even with my 13 department. I don't see how we can force that employee to 14 attend. There's been -- he's been notified of the mandatory 15 -- of the meeting. She's got to have the meeting. The 16 meeting is what is mandatory, her scheduling a meeting, 17 having a meeting. I don't think that each and every 18 employee's attendance at that meeting is necessarily the 19 mandatory, if they choose to not attend it. The meeting was 20 offered. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which one are you talking 22 about, Sheriff? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Any of them. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Huh? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Any of those. 2-22-10 123 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's not what the agenda 2 item's talking about. It talks about mandated notifications. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, then it goes into how 4 that notification is being done. If that notification is 5 requiring that employee to show up when the employee doesn't 6 want to be there, he's been advised of the meeting. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y'all are saying the same 8 thing, I think. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I hope so. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, I'm just wondering, does 11 that employee -- and I'll refer it to the legal one over 12 here. 13 MS. BAILEY: I think you've got legal versus -- 14 versus proof. I think Eva wants to make sure that she's got 15 something in writing so that if someone comes back and says, 16 "I didn't know," she can say, "Here it is. You were here; 17 you signed it." You might get the same effect by having the 18 department head -- like in my department, I've got six people 19 in my department. If four of them don't want to go, if I can 20 have them sign something that says -- 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They were advised. 22 MS. BAILEY: -- they got notified of it, "I don't 23 want to go," sign here. That might satisfy. So, there's 24 legal notification, and then there's what's going to cover 25 H.R.'s -- you know. 2-22-10 124 1 MS. PIEPER: I have another take on that. If she 2 sends me an e-mail that says here's a schedule; this is a 3 mandatory meeting, and one of my deputies says, "I don't want 4 to go because I don't want it," I'm going to tell them, 5 "Tough, you need to go over there and sit long enough to hear 6 just the presentation of it, and then if you decide you don't 7 want it, that's fine. You can sign off on her paper." But 8 they need to at least sit and listen to the presentation of 9 it to make sure they understand if they want it or don't want 10 it. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably true. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think it's up to them, 13 'cause for -- in her case, it's easy if it's 8:00 to 5:00 14 Monday through Friday. In my case, working shift work, I had 15 some of the people that say no, and they don't want the 16 overtime pay. I don't want to give out the overtime pay if 17 they don't want to be there. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You can do these by 19 departments. 20 MS. HYDE: We typically do them -- you asked me 21 earlier in another -- can do I that? Can I use something 22 from earlier today? 23 MS. BAILEY: Sure. 24 MS. HYDE: You asked me how do I educate and how do 25 I get the word out to insure that they get the word. This is 2-22-10 125 1 part of it. This is part of it. If they're not in the seat 2 and they're not listening, or they don't hear the message, 3 that means that we're going to rely upon maybe their 4 misunderstanding the information and not doing something 5 because they don't understand it. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand your point. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, maybe you need to get 8 the -- your friends, the federals, to change it, to mandate 9 that they be in the chair. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think you put out packages 11 of what all the changes are. You show it; you advise the 12 employees, there is a meeting at this date and time for 13 further explanation, in person with Eva over these issues, 14 and let them sign off on that packet. And if they show up to 15 the meeting, fine. If they don't, they got the packet of 16 information. 17 MS. HYDE: You can't do that with insurance, 18 though, gentlemen. And it's very difficult to do on a 457. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Why not? 20 MS. HYDE: Rusty, come on. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Why not? 22 MS. HYDE: How big -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait, wait, wait. 24 MS. HYDE: How big information -- how big is all 25 that packet on insurance? Do we really think that the 2-22-10 126 1 employees would have understood insurance if they didn't go 2 through the insurance meetings? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would love for them to, 4 but I'm not going to vote to mandate that they go to a 5 meeting when they're not -- when it's not a mandate. It 6 mandates that you notify them. 7 MS. HYDE: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why are you laughing? I 9 don't understand. I don't get that. 10 MS. HYDE: Because we want these people to be 11 educated about it. In order for them to be educated, they 12 need to have the opportunity to ask questions. But most 13 times when you send out paper, what do most people do with 14 it? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Throw it in the trash can. 16 I do. 17 MS. HYDE: You sign it and throw it away. And that 18 means you don't understand. So, what happens if we're 19 offering them something, and they don't understand it and 20 they throw it away, and, you know, two or three later -- 21 years later, they need it. They need to understand how it 22 impacts them. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So you're asking the Court, 24 then, to mandate that employees attend these meetings. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, you're asking us to 2-22-10 127 1 mandate them understanding what you're talking about. 2 MS. HYDE: True. True. (Laughter.) 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that's not going to 4 happen. 5 MS. HYDE: No. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not going to happen. 7 MS. BAILEY: I'm not sure you have the authority to 8 tell other elected officials what to do. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have no -- 10 MS. BAILEY: I mean, it would be grat if you could 11 encourage that, but I don't think you can mandate them. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can't. I know that. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, if we were to adopt a 14 court order today that requires Human Resources to take the 15 necessary steps to fulfill our requirement for notification 16 with respect to HIPAA, COBRA, and CHIPRA, -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And other legislative 18 changes. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- and other legislative 20 changes, undefined, will we be doing what you're seeking? 21 MS. HYDE: Not really, but that's okay. We'll take 22 it. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's the agenda item. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tell me why it's not. 25 MS. HYDE: Because I don't know how we're supposed 2-22-10 128 1 to educate people if we can't get them in the seat for them 2 to listen. It's hard enough to get people educated when 3 they're sitting in the seat listening. So -- but if that's 4 all we need to do, is get them to sign off on something, then 5 I can feel good about it. I've done what y'all have asked. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think they sign off, and 7 it's indicated they should attend it, and they sign off on 8 the stuff. Then it's back on that employee. If, two years 9 down the road, he needs it, you can show that you had this; 10 you were given it. You signed off on it. You had the 11 opportunity to go. You chose not to. Then that's on the 12 employee. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let me get at this another 14 way. I sit here and listen to all this argument one way and 15 the other. I think we've lost focus, that the people that 16 are mandated are our employees. And I think that an employer 17 has the right to have mandatory meetings for educational 18 purposes for employees. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, we have the right. No 20 question about that. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I mean, it's not like 22 everybody's an independent soul that doesn't rely on the 23 county for employment. I can assure you that in private 24 business, if there's a mandate, the employer's going to say, 25 "You're going to be in my office at this time, and you're 2-22-10 129 1 going to sit there and listen to me, or maybe you won't be 2 employed any more." That's the way I see it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand your point, 4 and it's a valid point. My hangup is maybe with the styling 5 of the agenda item. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're required 8 notifications. The reality is, Eva's talking about a 9 required meeting to notify and explain. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: As being the notification, 11 having a meeting. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Am I correct, there's a 13 distinction here? 14 MS. HYDE: Right. 15 MS. PIEPER: You can do a motion to that effect. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe it's semantics; I 17 don't know. So, you would be doing departmental meetings; is 18 that correct? You -- 19 MS. HYDE: The same thing that we do with open 20 enrollment with insurance. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You go to the Sheriff's 22 Office and you divvy up the Sheriff's -- the people they can 23 take at one time, and blah, blah, blah, blah. 24 MS. HYDE: Right. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Then you go to the Clerk's 2-22-10 130 1 Office; you do the same thing. 2 MS. HYDE: Right. Or we have it wide open, where 3 people can interact, just like we do for open enrollment. 4 We've got the 457 folks coming in for the annual open 5 enrollment for them. You can't have insurance -- with 6 retirement or any sort of retirement supplemental, you can't 7 have those two together. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can she see this? Can you 9 -- do you have this? 10 MS. BAILEY: What? Yeah, I do. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Under the -- the verbiage in 12 the agenda item, when it says "mandated notifications," if 13 we -- if we vote on this agenda item, can we broaden it to 14 require employees to attend meetings? 15 MS. BAILEY: My concern is that if you were to 16 order an elected official to order that of their employees, 17 when -- and they don't want to do it, that you might get -- 18 might have some difficulty. It would be my recommendation 19 instead that you do something like move to authorize the H.R. 20 Department to take appropriate action to make mandated 21 notifications, and encourage all elected officials to require 22 their employees -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with that. 24 MS. BAILEY: -- to attend such meetings. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with that 2-22-10 131 1 100 percent. But under this agenda item, the verbiage that's 2 before us today, can we require county employees to attend 3 meetings? 4 MS. BAILEY: I don't think so. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you answered it. I 6 think your answer is correct. We can make a recommendation 7 that -- that those department heads or elected officials urge 8 their employees to participate. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or you can bring it back 10 under her verbiage, and we'll do exactly what Bruce said. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I agree with what -- I 12 was going to bring that back to Ilse. So, I don't think we 13 can mandate elected officials to -- you know, they 14 technically work for the elected official. Department heads 15 are a little different issue. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Certainly. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think this is all 18 well-intentioned to do the right thing, trying to help 19 employees, and I don't know why it always becomes such an 20 issue. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it needn't be, 22 really. If we -- if we get into recommending to elected 23 officials, that's cool. And we ask them to urge their 24 employees to participate. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They may urge them not to 2-22-10 132 1 participate. 2 MS. PIEPER: What about -- I have a question about, 3 what about if it's put in the county policy that H.R. 4 Department has -- can have mandatory meetings? 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess you can call a 7 mandatory meeting of your -- your staff any time you want to, 8 to discuss whatever purpose you want to discuss. 9 MS. PIEPER: Right. I'm just trying to think of 10 something to help her. If she tells me, "Jannett, we need a 11 mandatory meeting on this," I'm going to say okay, and then 12 my employees will attend. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's the key right there. 14 MS. PIEPER: But, I mean, here we have the H.R. 15 Director, and we're wanting her to do her job, but yet she 16 needs some tools to help her do her job. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Look, bring that in the form 18 that it's supposed to be. We cannot do that today, though. 19 MS. PIEPER: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I mean, if y'all bring back 21 the right verbiage, I'm sure that we'll do something. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like Ilse's suggestion. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do too. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Reasonable suggestion. It 25 might work. 2-22-10 133 1 MS. BAILEY: I think if you're just trying -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That may be the only course 3 we have. 4 MS. BAILEY: -- urging officials to comply, I think 5 you could do that today. Because what you're ordering is 6 that she be authorized to have the meetings, and you're just 7 recommending that department heads urge their employees to 8 comply. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, if we were to adopt a 10 court order that authorizes Ms. Hyde and her staff to provide 11 the mandated notifications to Kerr County employees for these 12 items, and then, comma, and urge elected officials/department 13 heads to -- can't say instruct, but urge them to participate, 14 that would suffice? 15 MS. BAILEY: I think so. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move that. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll second it. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And so -- so then you could 19 send a copy of the court order, and then that would be our 20 support toward that thing, right? You're not sold out 21 completely on this thing? 22 MS. HYDE: No, sir, I'm not. But that's okay. 23 That's okay. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did we not kick the can 25 down the road a little bit? 2-22-10 134 1 MS. HYDE: It's the point that if we have something 2 that is mandated, and it is a mandated training that they 3 need, how do they get it from a piece of paper? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you missed the 5 sense of the motion. The sense of the motion is for your -- 6 you and your staff to take the necessary steps to fulfill the 7 mandated requirements for notifications, right? For these 8 items. Comma, and urge elected officials/department heads to 9 have their employees participate. 10 MS. HYDE: But I think the point was taken from one 11 or two, again, they can say, "No, you don't really need to 12 go," so we miss out on a large -- sometimes a large group. 13 But that's -- that's county government. That's all I can 14 hope for. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, it's kind of a power 16 that we don't have. 17 MS. HYDE: Right. It's all I can hope for. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ain't going to settle for 19 this deal that we're willing to -- 20 MS. HYDE: It's all I can hope for. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there a motion on the 22 table? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There is, and a second. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And a second. Let's see. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Any further discussion? 2-22-10 135 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you -- do you have the 2 motion? I mean, do you have the -- 3 THE CLERK: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there any other 5 discussion on this? All in favor, please say "aye." 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Motion carries. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Ms. Hyde. The 9 chair voted. 10 MS. HYDE: Big chair. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Big chair. And it's 12 something new. Let's go to -- 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One addendum in there, Buster. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. Whoa, whoa, whoa. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Eighteen. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, hold on. Don't 17 anybody move. Item 1.18, to consider, discuss, and take 18 appropriate action regarding the chili cook-off schedule for 19 April 2nd and 3rd, 2010, at Flat Rock Lake Park. The 20 honorable Sheriff W.R. Hierholzer. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A question came up to us. The 22 people that have that had permission from the Court to have 23 the chili cook-off down there came to our department wanting 24 to hire a couple of guys, off-duty type security for them, 25 which that's fine. The County requires a lot of that. The 2-22-10 136 1 request -- or what I don't think is covered in the agreement 2 the County has with them to use that park, and their requests 3 are, number one, that we don't allow anybody to drive through 4 that park while they are having their cook-off. They're 5 having an issue with -- maybe it's younger ones, younger 6 teenagers, whoever, driving through, you know, too fast. 7 They're concerned about safety of their people that are 8 attending their cook-off. That's one request. The second 9 request is that we allow no alcoholic beverages to be brought 10 into that park during their cook-off. Maybe it messes with 11 their license or whatever they have. My understanding is 12 they just have access to the park, not exclusive use of the 13 park. And that's where I need some guidance from this Court 14 in what to tell them, or what this Court wants done. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rusty and I have talked 16 about this, and I don't think we've ever granted an exclusive 17 use of the park to anybody. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hmm-mm, quite the contrary. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Huh? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Quite the contrary. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. We allow the use of 22 the park, and the park is a public park and it's open to 23 anybody to use at any time. And so I -- I agree with the 24 Sheriff, and we're not creating exclusivity. But are you 25 going to -- I'm going back to the traffic issue, or the 2-22-10 137 1 speeding issue. Are you going to allow them to hire a couple 2 of your deputies for that? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If they want. And normally on 4 county property, they're required to have some security under 5 the County's agreement on functions. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And if a couple of my officers 8 do end up -- number one, they are off-duty; they're not 9 allowed to use county equipment, being the patrol cars or any 10 of that, so working traffic in there is not -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about uniforms? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, they do -- they are 13 allowed to wear a uniform at the time. Most of them have 14 a -- a privately purchased shirt, kind of like this one that 15 I wear. That is for working those kind of things. Not our 16 full department-issued uniform. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What if we had Road and 18 Bridge put temporary posted speed signs out there? Speed 19 limit during this event is 10 miles an hour, or whatever? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I doubt if it's enforceable 21 that quick on a dirt road or whatever that is, you know, 22 going though the county park, okay? I don't know that you 23 can, quote, enforce that sign. I don't know what the laws 24 are on how it has to be posted and all that. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I think you put up a 2-22-10 138 1 courtesy sign. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Recommended, courtesy. We can 3 try and ask people to slow down at the time guys are working 4 some off duty there, but I don't think that there's anything 5 we can enact that will -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I wasn't suggesting 7 that. I'm just saying that Road and Bridge could take some 8 measures to put a courtesy sign up there during this event. 9 Speed, you know, whatever. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Event in progress. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You see that a lot. Those of 12 us that are doing bicycle riding deals, you'll see that a lot 13 along the road where it says, you know, bike event. You 14 know, please slow down. Or -- or event ahead or something 15 like that. That may be able to be -- be used in there, just 16 to give them -- and then we can assist with them, but we 17 can't keep them from driving through the park, nor can we 18 keep alcoholic beverages, I think, from entering that park. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We could have them prepare 20 a sign for use from this point further, "Private event, 21 please drive carefully." 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Something like that. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just put it on a pedestal; 24 it's there. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Get Road and Bridge to make 2-22-10 139 1 it. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think that would be helpful. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What about -- what about -- 4 you put this on here for a purpose. Now, are you supposed to 5 report back to somebody, or are we supposed to? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We had invited the one from 7 there. I know I had the patrol captain get a hold of the one 8 that was requesting it, that's with that event and wanted to 9 get it, and I wanted them here. We actually -- Patrol 10 Captain Prout called them and notified them it was going to 11 be on the agenda today to see if they would want to show up 12 and give a -- you know, their side of the story or something 13 else. We wanted to give them that opportunity. 14 MS. BAILEY: Let me say something, just to head off 15 problems. I don't remember who, but someone asked me two 16 weeks ago if they could block off -- my understanding was a 17 parking area there that generally would allow parking, but -- 18 in other words, I think I was given a different set of facts, 19 and I gave a different answer. So, if you get something 20 saying the County Attorney said we can block off traffic 21 through there, that's not what was said. What I said was 22 that if there's a parking area that's ordinarily parking, but 23 you're going to be having your event there, of course, you 24 can block that off, because it's not a pubic road; it's a 25 parking area, if it's being used for something else. But I'm 2-22-10 140 1 not talking about road area; I'm just talking about if you 2 have an event somewhere, of course, you can have cars there. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But we've kind of had an 4 agreement, sort of, that we don't deny citizens their right 5 to use their property. 6 MS. BAILEY: I just wanted to alert you to that. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just because the dogs got 8 the prettiest, most expensive piece of property in the county 9 doesn't mean -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That could change. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You brave soul, you. 12 Anything else on this 1.18? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's it. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, are you okay -- 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. It's -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- with no action? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We're not going to limit 18 anything from -- anybody from going through there or being in 19 there or having use and pleasure of that park, okay? We will 20 do what we can -- or those guys working off-duty security for 21 them or whatever will do what they can to help with their 22 event, but we're not going to limit the rest of the citizens. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll contact Kelly about a 24 sign. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. 2-22-10 141 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- let's talk about 2 paying the bills. Is anyone interested in paying bills? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Are there any 5 questions for the Auditor? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move we pay the bills. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have a motion. Is there 8 a second? 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And there's a second. And, 11 now, are there any questions to the Auditor with regards to 12 the bills? Hearing none, all in favor, please say "aye." 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All opposed? None. Motion 15 carries. Budget amendments. Budget amendments? 16 MS. HARGIS: You have the budget amendments, and we 17 do have the grants in here that we talked about, the 18 reimbursable grants. They're the first two items on the 19 budget amendments. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So this is really just 22 putting it in so we can spend it, right? 23 MS. HARGIS: Yes, because we can't spend -- even 24 though it's a grant, we can't spend money or take money 25 without approval. 2-22-10 142 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Until we place it in the 2 general budget, okay. 3 MS. HARGIS: The law enforcement grant is -- is a 4 combination of the 198th D.A.'s office and the Sheriff's 5 Office. And the 198th has purchased -- or had to send funds 6 for their share to the software company to be able to get in 7 line, which was $70,000. The grants -- I wouldn't even let 8 them discuss or do anything until the grants were approved by 9 the governor's office and listed on the web site, and those 10 grants are active and have been on the web site. They were 11 put on the web site -- that one was put on on the 21st of 12 January. The other one was put on the 26th of January. 13 Normally, the governor does not approve these grants until 14 they're on that web site, and they are. So, you know, 15 neither of them have -- have spent anything, so I just need 16 you to approve, you know, placing them on our budget, keeping 17 in mind that these are probably going to be 100 percent 18 within a 30-day time frame. The governor's office is pretty 19 fast about reimbursing us. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Any other questions? 21 I have one. Request Number 3, the County Auditor. 22 MS. HARGIS: Yes. I didn't set up an overtime line 23 item, and I -- I had one employee who did use it -- actually, 24 two. I've spoken with them about that. And -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What was that for? 2-22-10 143 1 MS. HARGIS: I think that Tess was asked to stay to 2 work on some stuff one night for some things that needed to 3 be done for the next day. And, generally speaking, we take 4 comp time in my office. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You couldn't give comp time 6 instead of paying overtime? 7 MS. HARGIS: It was already in the system, and H.R. 8 told me I could not. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It can be taken out of the 10 system. 11 MS. HARGIS: So -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I would encourage you not to 13 do that any more. 14 MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir. I already spoke to my staff 15 about that. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Item Number 4, the County 17 Treasurer. Help me understand what I'm seeing here. I see 18 conferences at 4,500 and some few dollars. Books and 19 publications, dues for $100. And then budget to transfer 20 shows 125 on each of those lines. 21 MS. HARGIS: We're reducing her conference line 22 item by $125. We're increasing her books, publications, and 23 dues by 125. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're reducing each one of 25 those lines? 2-22-10 144 1 MS. HARGIS: No, I am reducing the first line, 2 because the first line then becomes 4,396. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. 4 MS. HARGIS: The second line increases by the 125. 5 In other words, she's short in her books and publications. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 7 MS. HARGIS: So she's asked to increase that. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 9 MS. HARGIS: Same with mine. I had no moneys in 10 there, so I had to increase it. The parks is the same way. 11 We're reducing the building repairs by $50, and we're 12 increasing his courthouse insurance, because he didn't -- 13 there wasn't a line item for that. So, the thousand -- the 14 first line will decrease. The second line will increase. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, you know what? In the 16 back of my mind -- I think what's throwing me off here, in 17 the back of my mind, when you have the number and then the 18 little brackets around them, to me that indicates that you're 19 reducing that. Is that not a -- is that not correct? 20 MS. HARGIS: No, in little brackets shows that 21 those -- that that particular line item is in the hole by 22 that amount of money. In other words, they're over budget by 23 that amount of money. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I'll do my best to 25 remember that, but if not, I'll ask you these questions 2-22-10 145 1 again. 2 MS. HARGIS: Okay. We'll work -- actually, my 3 staff and I went over this, because I wanted to put that on 4 the middle section. So they said the software, the way they 5 set it up, works that way. So, we'll go back and -- and -- 6 because I had the same question y'all did. Why isn't the 7 center having the red lines? So, we'll see how we can fix 8 it. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Any other questions 10 on -- 11 THE CLERK: We need a motion. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- budget amendment 13 requests? Do I have a motion for approval? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a motion. Is there a 17 second? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All in favor, please say 20 "aye." 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Motion carries. What do we 23 call this thing, Direct Item Register? 24 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tell us about that. 2-22-10 146 1 MS. HARGIS: Again, those are -- those are the 2 checks that are being requested that would either have a late 3 charge billed to them, or they're a travel reimbursement or a 4 fee that the people need -- or conference fee that they need 5 to be mailed in. Because we don't have credit cards and 6 things of that nature. So, those are all normally utilities. 7 You have some for licenses here. Most of the time, these are 8 travel reimbursements. We've had some people that -- you 9 know, some of the clerks that go out and purchase things 10 because they've been asked to do that, and they don't have 11 the funds available, so you try and pay those back within a 12 week, rather than have them wait two and a half weeks for 13 their money. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: May I ask you a question? 15 MS. HARGIS: Mm-hmm. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There are three folks here 17 that are getting their firearms renewal, and all three of 18 them are 216th Adult Probation. 19 MS. HARGIS: You don't have to approve those. They 20 just come out on the report; we don't have any way to delete 21 them. And we've always run all the 216th checks through 22 court, regardless of whether you approved them or not. 23 Probation, we've always run them through you. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can I ask my question now? 25 MS. HARGIS: Yeah. 2-22-10 147 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is not county 2 taxpayers' money? 3 MS. HARGIS: No, it is not. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is 216th? 5 MS. HARGIS: That's correct. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. And the 7 same for the state inspection on -- oh, that's a vehicle -- 8 wait a minute. Hold on. Now, Mr. Brown here that had his 9 vehicle inspected -- 10 MS. HARGIS: That -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the same thing? The 12 216th pays for that too? 13 MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's not his car, is it? 15 MS. HARGIS: No, sir, it's not. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm kidding. I'm kidding. 17 There's a lot of them here. 18 MS. HARGIS: There are a lot of conferences coming 19 up in the month of March and April. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There were even some in 21 February. 22 MS. HARGIS: Mm-hmm. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's old Bruce Oehler. 24 Where's he going? 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Already been. 2-22-10 148 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, you've already been. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Over there to what Bill Stacy 3 used to call Mecca. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: A & M. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Far cry from Mecca. 7 MS. HARGIS: Just for information purposes, and 8 we're going to get it clarified, I was given this application 9 this morning. This is, again, just for information purposes. 10 When we're building our annex, as you recall, our Road and 11 Bridge Department is going to be doing the site work, and in 12 order to use water from the city of Kerrville, you have to 13 get a temporary permit to put in a fire hydrant. So, we may 14 have to have that run through. It's refundable, but it's a 15 deposit of 2,750. So, just F.Y.I. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. Is there a 17 motion to approve the Direct Item Register? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So moved. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Motion and second. All in 21 favor, please say "aye." 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Motion carries. What is 24 this? This is an audit report. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is this just F.Y.I., or is 2-22-10 149 1 this for a motion? 2 MS. HARGIS: It's just part of your group reports 3 or your -- that you -- your monthly reports. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, is there any late bills? 6 MS. HARGIS: No, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I have no -- here we 8 are. Is this the -- they're listed here. Thank you so much. 9 We have monthly reports from J.P. 1, District Clerk, District 10 Clerk amended, J.P. 4, Constable Number 3, Kerr County 11 Treasurer for January 2010, and Road and Bridge Department. 12 Do I hear a motion to approve -- or accept these monthly 13 reports? 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. All in favor, 17 please say "aye." 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Motion carries. Thank you. 20 Need to sign it? All right. Do we have any reports from 21 Commissioners on their liaison duties? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nothing, Your Honor. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's better. That's a lot 24 better. (Laughter.) 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Nothing, Your Honor-ness. 2-22-10 150 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-oh. Just sign this and 2 hush. You got your handcuffs? We can put an end to this. 3 Reports from elected officials? Other than the Sheriff? 4 MS. PIEPER: None. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You ready? Jail population 6 report. 198th, there's 28 pending trial. 216th has 38. 7 County Court at Law, 23. And we are finally back down to 18 8 females, so we're back in a lot better shape with our 9 females. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What did you do with them? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 136 overall population this 13 morning. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 136 is a good number. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's a good number. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's good. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. Congratulations. 19 Thank y'all for your hard work. Is there any reports from 20 boards, commissions, and/or committees? City/County 21 projects, et cetera? This Court will be in recess till 22 1:30 p.m., when we'll take up the matter with the City of 23 Kerrville. 24 (Recess taken from 12:21 p.m. to 1:35 p.m.) 25 - - - - - - - - - - 2-22-10 151 1 (Judge Tinley and all Commissioners were present.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to order, if 3 we might, from the lunch recess. We have a 1:30 timed item, 4 Item 17. Our colleagues from the City are here to give us a 5 presentation by the City of Kerrville on proposed Certificate 6 of Convenience and Necessity for water application to the 7 Texas Commission on Environmental Quality. We have Mr. Todd 8 Parton, City Manager, and Mr. Charlie Hastings, Director of 9 Public Works here. 10 MR. HASTINGS: Thank you. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you for being here. We 12 appreciate you coming. 13 MR. HASTINGS: This is the Power Point that I have 14 up there on the wall, okay? There you go. And if anyone 15 else would like one -- 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: See, we have to give one to 17 the clerk. 18 MR. HASTINGS: Okay, very good. Here's some more. 19 MS. BAILEY: Charlie, do you have an extra one? 20 MR. HASTINGS: Yes, I do. I'm going to put these 21 right here, if anyone else would like one. Kerrville has 22 proposed a Certificate of Convenience and Necessity for 23 water. And what is a certificate of convenience and 24 Necessity? It's a state water purveyor license. What is the 25 City's interest? The City has three main interests. Number 2-22-10 152 1 one, safety, firefighting capabilities. Number two, 2 sustainability, water availability within the area. And 3 number three, economic growth. So, we all know that economic 4 growth is tied back to water and its availability, and that 5 if you want to be able to sustain a water supply, you're 6 going to need to build a plan for it. You can't plan for it 7 if you don't know what you're planning for. And, of course, 8 safety, firefighting capabilities, specifications as far as 9 water pressure and volume, et cetera, are what's being 10 implied there. And what is the process? From this point 11 forward, we're revising our CCN map, the service area that 12 we've outlined. It's due April the 15th. We got a little 13 bit of an extension. It was originally due on March 5th. We 14 had our meeting the other day to discuss it, and we asked for 15 a little more time from T.C.E.Q., 'cause we want to make sure 16 our map is pretty solid when it goes. If Kerrville is 17 granted this proposed CCN, it won't affect private wells. If 18 you have a private well or if you want to drill a private 19 well, it's not going to affect your ability to do that. You 20 still go through the same governmental authorities, so 21 governmental authorities are not affected. The things that 22 the City of Kerrville does in its authority is going to be 23 separate from this CCN. We'll have the authority to sell 24 water in that area, but it doesn't supersede any other 25 authorities that the County might have, or anyone else that 2-22-10 153 1 -- let's say the -- regulating septic systems. Again, this 2 is a water CCN. It's not about wastewater at all; it's all 3 about water. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Charlie, I have a question on 5 private wells. 6 MR. HASTINGS: Yes, sir? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The people wanting to drill 8 wells in the future, you said that they can do that? 9 MR. HASTINGS: That's right. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They'll be subject to the lot 11 size spacing of Headwaters. 12 MR. HASTINGS: They're -- they're subject to 13 Headwaters' -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Headwaters' rules. 15 MR. HASTINGS: -- rules, yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there -- I have been told, 17 and I've never read the CCN documents, that some CCN's do 18 prohibit private wells. Is there -- is there a way to do it, 19 or -- I mean, 'cause -- is it -- 20 MR. HASTINGS: I don't know. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- in this document? So -- but 22 the document that you get can't be changed. I mean, if it's 23 approved, that's fixed. That's set in stone, that that 24 cannot be changed later. 25 MR. HASTINGS: The CCN? CCN's can change. 2-22-10 154 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The private well issue. 2 MR. HASTINGS: The private well issue? I don't 3 know what you're referring to. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I'm just -- I mean, 5 if -- 6 MR. HASTINGS: But the application we've turned in, 7 that is not our intent. And -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- and if you're granted 9 one, there's no way for it to be changed that you're aware 10 of? 11 MR. HASTINGS: There is -- a CCN can be changed 12 after it's been approved. CCN's change, expand. They get 13 changed. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the private well issue is 15 what I'm talking about, cannot be changed. 16 MR. HASTINGS: I don't know what the private well 17 issue is. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess, let me rephrase it. I 19 have -- one of the concerns I have heard is that if it -- the 20 CCN, if it's approved, the applicants -- any applicants, but 21 in this case City of Kerrville, could prohibit private wells 22 in the future. There's a mechanism to do that through a CCN. 23 And I don't -- I'm just trying to clarify if that is -- if it 24 can be changed or if it cannot be changed in the future, that 25 aspect of the CCN. 2-22-10 155 1 MR. HASTINGS: I don't know. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Charlie, before you go on. 4 MR. HASTINGS: Yes, sir? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your Number 2 bullet there, 6 Governmental authority not affected, I want to draw you out 7 on this a little bit. I'm going to read to you from 8 Mr. Parton's letter to Judge Tinley dated January 11th, and 9 on the first page, in the fourth paragraph, you talk about, 10 "A CCN is a license issued by T.C.E.Q. that gives the CCN 11 holder the exclusive right to provide retail potable water 12 utility service to customers within the area of the CCN." 13 Going on a little further in the paragraph, it says, "Thus, 14 if the city CCN is granted, no investor-owned utility, such 15 as Aqua, Texas, for example, or governmental entity would be 16 permitted by state law to provide potable water to customers 17 for compensation within the CCN of the city." This is a 18 quote from the letter the City Manager wrote to Judge Tinley. 19 Question. How does that affect U.G.R.A. and any of its 20 intentions for future use of water in the ETJ, or outside the 21 ETJ? 22 MR. HASTINGS: The -- it would affect them in that 23 the CCN, whoever it's issued to, is the only entity that can 24 sell water. 25 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Except, Charlie, if 2-22-10 156 1 there's -- let me butt in, if I might. That -- that can be a 2 negotiated issue, and we have said this from day one, that -- 3 and working particularly with the Center Point area, we are 4 -- are dealing with U.G.R.A. If they want a portion of that, 5 we'll work that out with them. This is not to exclude them 6 in what they're doing at Center Point, period. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Then why wouldn't that have 9 been excluded in your original application? 10 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: We don't know yet what their 11 area of service is. They're studying it right now. They've 12 got the engineers working. We don't know. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If I can follow up on that, to 15 whoever, assuming U.G.R.A., for whatever reason, opts out of 16 being the water provider in the Center Point area, but the 17 W.C. & I.D. in Comfort opts in, and they can expand into Kerr 18 County without any problem, and that's part of the -- an 19 integral part of the whole east Kerr County project, is the 20 same thing going to hold true, that that area can then get 21 excluded for whoever the operator of the Center Point project 22 is? Or whoever is the water supplier, that that could 23 then -- you know, it's -- that's a very important part to 24 that whole project, to make sure that there's -- it's based 25 on customers. And if some of the customers are excluded, 2-22-10 157 1 it's going to really hurt the economic viability of the 2 project. 3 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Our intention, Jonathan, is 4 not to be a detriment to Center Point. We want to be a 5 benefit to them. And, so, to -- I don't know that to be a 6 fact. We haven't talked to the people down there, so I don't 7 know. It's really dependent on what U.G.R.A. comes up with. 8 Then we go to the next step. So, I don't know how to answer 9 that at this point. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I guess my question is, what 11 is the emergency to get all this done before you have all the 12 facts from all the -- from U.G.R.A. and -- and the Center 13 Point wastewater and water issue? 14 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: We can -- 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What's the emergency? What's 16 the hurry? 17 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: The -- there's no real 18 emergency, except we have not been able to get T.C.E.Q. to 19 help facilitate the necessity, the safety, and those kinds of 20 things. They ignore it. Today, a private company can go in 21 and set up a CCN through T.C.E.Q., put substandard stuff in. 22 Ultimately, what we're doing will try -- our whole objective, 23 in a single sentence, is to save the taxpayers money, period. 24 If the T.C.E.Q. would step forward and say you're going to 25 put in quality that will -- for firefighting protection, we 2-22-10 158 1 wouldn't -- I wouldn't even be here today, but they won't do 2 it. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I guess that's another 4 argument that one could make, is that normally out in the -- 5 what is now the -- not in the ETJ, which is part of the 6 county, you don't have the density to make a water -- a 7 municipal water system standard cost-effective. 8 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Two issues. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You don't have the density of 10 houses in places. 11 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Two issues in that respect. 12 Under the current development of rules within the ETJ, we 13 still have the 5-acre minimum. It's staying there. And in 14 that case, that's set up so that the individuals can drill 15 their own private wells. There is no requirement in that for 16 a public water system. That's issue number one. So, that's 17 not going away. That's still a part of it. It depends on 18 the developer, what it is they're going to put in. If they 19 want to get more yield out of their property and they want to 20 reduce their tract size below 5 acres, then they're going to 21 have to put in a central water system, and that's when this 22 will take effect. Sorry, Charlie. 23 MR. HASTINGS: That's all right. Okay. Again, the 24 application that Kerrville is making is for water only. It's 25 not for wastewater, and it doesn't have any bearing on septic 2-22-10 159 1 systems. This is what the original application looked like a 2 year ago -- well, less than a year ago, back in about 3 October, when we turned it in to the State of Texas. It was 4 for this area, and this area is a 2-mile buffer around the 5 existing city limits. And there's white spaces in there. 6 Those are existing CCN's. This is what the map looked like. 7 These were all the different property owners who sent in 8 requests to opt out. There was a deadline of November for 9 people to request to opt out, of last year, and this map 10 represents all of those people. It was about 176 letters 11 that we received, and about 176 people, and then each person 12 owned -- some of them owned one tract; some of them owned 13 multiple. And this -- everything that's in green was 14 25 acres or larger, and the State of Texas said if someone 15 has a parcel and they meet the deadline, they can opt out 16 automatically. There's nothing you can do about it. And if 17 -- if the parcel was less than 25, they could request to opt 18 out. And you can see the red ones up there. There's not 19 very many. It doesn't represent a whole lot of area or a 20 whole lot of properties. And so a couple weeks ago, at a 21 Council meeting, we presented this to Council with a 22 recommendation that they -- they grant the request from 23 anyone who met the deadline to opt out, that that request be 24 granted, and they granted that. So, when they did, our 25 application looked like this. We asked T.C.E.Q. for more 2-22-10 160 1 time to go back and potentially revise this map a little bit 2 more. Our deadline is April the 15th, and we anticipate 3 taking this to Council in the next few weeks to have them -- 4 so we can resolve a few more issues. For example, there is a 5 water service area -- a water provider right now who never 6 filed for a CCN, okay? There's a couple of those systems 7 that are out there, and so it didn't show up. T.C.E.Q. 8 didn't catch it. We didn't catch it. But we've since been 9 able to have conversations with them, with all the 10 conversations we've had, all the public meetings, and we're 11 going to get that removed. And T.C.E.Q.'s going to want us 12 to have that removed. And so we'll be going back to Council 13 to get that resolved, and maybe clean up some of these 14 outlying areas where -- where there's some islands out there 15 that were created. Are there any other questions? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a question for 17 Mr. Parton whenever -- whenever the appropriate time is. 18 MR. HASTINGS: Now is the time. That's the end of 19 the Power Point. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to go back to the 21 letter that Commissioner Williams made reference to, 22 Mr. Parton. Paragraph one, two, three, "The City is also 23 trying..." You're not following. The second sentence starts 24 with, "If property owners opt out of the CCN, as they 25 currently have the right to do, the City will not include 2-22-10 161 1 those properties as part of the long-term water supply plan. 2 Thus, there will be no guarantee that the City would approve 3 a request for water services in the future." What I'm 4 hearing -- what I'm hearing there is that you can opt out, 5 and that's a cool thing to do if you so choose to do, but if 6 you do, we may not ever provide you with services any more. 7 Is that what you're saying? 8 MR. PARTON: What we're saying is, this -- one of 9 the reasons behind the CCN is to allow the City to ultimately 10 plan and look to develop an ultimate supply of water. If 11 there's a CCN, we know what our service area looks like. If 12 you opt out, there's no guarantee from the City that we'll be 13 able to bring you in at some point when you opt -- when you 14 decide to try to opt in into the future. So, we're working, 15 if the CCN application is successful, to determine how much 16 water we need to generate to serve that ultimate area, and 17 any additional demands that come in after that will just have 18 to be considered on a case-by-case basis. There will be no 19 guarantee that we can provide services. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- I'm looking at the map. 22 A large portion of what's in the CCN is existing subdivisions 23 with individuals wells, or small tracts. I'm looking at 24 largely between Harper Road and Highway 16. I think that's 25 almost all subdivision up there. And then some of the other 2-22-10 162 1 areas I know further -- Hill Country Ranch Estates is shown 2 there. What's the purpose of including property that's in -- 3 or in existing subdivisions that are small lots that -- I 4 mean, in here? Is it ever going to be subdivisions, or 5 further subdivisions, in large part, 'cause a lot of them 6 have deed restrictions on them. And it's just like, it's -- 7 what's the reason for including all those tracts? 8 MR. PARTON: Well, ultimately, we can't ever say 9 never. We don't know. We can't predict with any certainty 10 exactly what happens into the future, firstly. Properties 11 can be subdivided. Deed restrictions can change. All those 12 things can happen. The other thing is that if you have an 13 existing system, existing private system, it's not impacted 14 by the CCN application. I'd like to go back to, I think, 15 your question earlier, and that was can the private well 16 issue be changed later on? The CCN application is for retail 17 service. It's -- it's to establish the entity that has the 18 right to be able to make retail sales within that CCN area. 19 So, if you're a private system on a private well, or you're a 20 wholesaler, this CCN doesn't affect you. What it does affect 21 is systems that are going to be community systems where 22 retail water's being sold, and those are the types of things 23 that would be impacted. So, the -- the issue of an 24 individual who is within an area that is on a 25-acre tract 25 that has a private well is not going to be impacted by this 2-22-10 163 1 application, and they can continue and they can proceed. If 2 that land's subdivided, they're going to sink more private 3 wells. They've got the ability to do that. They can 4 continue to do that. What it would affect is if those 5 parcels did get subdivided, did have community systems that 6 came on that were intended -- intending to make retail sales, 7 then they would need to fall under the provisions of the CCN. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Say, as an example, one of 9 these lots -- you know, 10-acre lot said -- well, they don't 10 do it 10 acres, but one of these small tracts, 25 acres or 11 less, goes ahead and decides they want to put in a water 12 system, and they're way up there in the far north part of 13 that along Highway 16 somewhere. They'll be a CCN. How are 14 they going to be treated for putting in a smaller than 15 15 connection water system for five homes? Are they going to 16 have to build it to city standards? 17 MR. PARTON: Well, they would have to develop that 18 to whatever subdivision standards are in place today. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The water part -- the water 20 issue, the CCN part of it only, not subdivision. Just the -- 21 MR. PARTON: It would fall under the City's 22 guidelines. So, if they're going to come in, develop a 23 system, the -- the caveat to that is that we have to evaluate 24 what their system's going to be. If they're going to come 25 in, put in a system less than 15 connections, and it's simply 2-22-10 164 1 for the purpose of working together to develop a private 2 water system, they're not selling water to one another, I 3 suppose that that's a situation, again, where the CCN isn't 4 going to prohibit that from happening. But they will have to 5 put it in to meet the appropriate minimum specifications for 6 the water system. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the appropriate minimums 8 under the CCN, or the appropriate minimums of T.C.E.Q.? 9 MR. PARTON: Well, probably both. It's going to be 10 primarily T.C.E.Q. The City would also have those design 11 specifications. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: See, but, I mean, Bruce earlier 13 said -- and I agree with Bruce. You know, the -- if you're 14 going under T.C.E.Q. rules, I wouldn't use the word 15 "substandard," but it's not going to meet the city fire flow 16 requirements. And I guess what I'm getting at is, at what 17 point does triggering -- is it triggered to go to the city 18 fire flow requirements? What number of connections or lot -- 19 or -- 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Lot size. 21 MR. PARTON: We've got a rural standard that -- 22 that applies, that says under a rural standard, if you 23 qualify as a rural subdivision, you can come in; fire flow 24 criteria don't apply. And so if -- if you follow the logic 25 of what you're proposing, it sounds like you're talking a 2-22-10 165 1 large-lot subdivision. I'll guarantee those lots are 2 probably going to be 35 acres or larger, and under those -- 3 under that kind of development scenario, it's more than 4 likely that the fire flow criteria are not going to apply. 5 What happens is, when you have subdivisions that don't 6 qualify, that have community systems that get put into place 7 where fire flow is a requirement, then it has to meet that 8 design criteria. And what happens under the rules right now, 9 without a -- without a CCN, without a municipal CCN over 10 that, the system is designed. The system design includes 11 provisions for fire flow protection, and so the fire flow is 12 there. System's there, the pressure's there, the volume is 13 there. They can then make a decision on their own, 14 unilaterally, then to determine if their system is no longer 15 available for firefighting. And in that case, now you have a 16 subdivision that has multiple lots, that are on a system that 17 was designed and built for fire flow, and now the water 18 operator decided I'm not going to provide fire flow, 'cause I 19 don't want to accept perceived responsibility for liability 20 for the fire flow. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand that part of it. 22 I understand, you know, the reason for it. I'm not, you 23 know, against it. I'm just trying to figure out at what 24 point the economics enter into it, in my mind, as to the 25 trigger point for having to put in municipal-type fire flow. 2-22-10 166 1 If there -- and you're talking -- I'm not talking about 35 2 acres or larger. I'm talking about someone who's got 10 3 acres and wants to put in four lots. 4 MR. PARTON: Again, it would fall under those 5 guidelines, the very same guidelines that we're working on 6 right now jointly between the City and the County. Our 7 anticipation is that those similar guidelines -- and we've 8 talked about when we hit those benchmarks for requiring fire 9 flow. Those are the same things that we looked at. And part 10 of the whole basis of what we've contemplated, if it's a 11 rural subdivision where it's rural in nature, the roadway 12 sections, the drainage sections, and the water systems are 13 treated in a rural situation, we're recognizing the very 14 factors that you're talking about, where you talk about the 15 relative cost to install infrastructure as related to the 16 overall density and the type of projects that you're talking 17 about. So, if it is a rural project, we're putting standards 18 together right now that address a rural subdivision standard 19 that goes into play that covers everything, including the 20 fire flow question. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, what I'm hearing is that 22 this -- the decision is pushed back to the ETJ issue. And to 23 me, they're separate, because the -- you carry the CCN far 24 beyond the current ETJ. And I guess what I'm trying to 25 figure out is, at what point is this going to have an 2-22-10 167 1 economic impact on the public? If there's a three-lot 2 subdivision and someone is going -- you know, say Lee Voelkel 3 wants to put in a water system to serve three lots. Is he 4 going to be able to do that under something similar to the 5 current scenario, which is not a -- you know, meets the 6 standards from a state law standpoint of T.C.E.Q., but does 7 not meet the standards of a municipality for fire flow 8 standpoint. All I'm talking about is fire flow. 9 MR. PARTON: Well -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's my concern. 11 MR. PARTON: Sure. 12 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Let me throw another wrinkle 13 in this. A part of -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't need another one. I 15 don't want another wrinkle; I want a -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Solution. 17 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Part of the problem lies not 18 only in fire, per se, but firefighting, fire prevention. For 19 example, if -- and we're contracted with the County to go out 20 in certain areas and fight fires. If our units go out there 21 and all these hydrants are painted black, they can carry only 22 a certain amount of water. Now, if they're limited to the 23 water they can carry, they've got to make a decision; are we 24 going to save that house, or are we going to let it burn, but 25 keep it from spreading? They don't have enough water to do 2-22-10 168 1 both in most cases. So, then comes the question of where do 2 they get more water? If they hook up to one of these black 3 fire hydrants, and for whatever reason, there's not adequate 4 water in there, then you got all kinds of problems created. 5 You can collapse the lines. You can suck bad stuff into the 6 -- and foul the system. You can suck water out of the hot 7 water heaters and burn them up, and then who's liable? 8 That's the problem with that side of it. 9 The other problem is that the -- when we are -- are 10 looking at -- and I called several insurance companies, 11 because I wanted to know what the premium, if you would, the 12 difference in rate between a building in the city and a 13 building outside of the city, what the difference in the rate 14 was. Well, what I found out on that, it depended on distance 15 from a fire station, depended on the equipment that was 16 available, depended on the roads, depended on all kinds of 17 stuff. And the premium -- the best you could get for 18 close-in, easy access, well-built, was about 35 percent 19 premium. Other areas went as high as 300 percent. So, 20 what's happening is, in reality, the people living out there, 21 even by choice, even though they know that it's more, they're 22 paying for fire protection, but not getting it. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I would challenge that a 24 little bit. 25 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Well -- 2-22-10 169 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because one thing is you only 2 have contracted one truck. That's it. That's all you have 3 contracted with the County to respond. Our volunteers get 4 there a lot of times a lot quicker than you do, and they have 5 a lot more capability and a lot better equipment, because 6 that's what they're used to fighting. 7 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Well, I don't disagree with 8 that, Mr. Oehler, but my -- my point is, they're under the 9 same thing. I don't think they realize at this point the 10 liability that they're taking on. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, they have a lot of 12 other sources that they use for water than what you're aware 13 of. 14 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Well, they may have, and it 15 would take that, tanker trucks and that sort of thing. But 16 the -- 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We have one, and it's 18 available. 19 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Yeah, but one may not be 20 adequate, depending on the fire. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It does. But the thing is, 22 people that live out -- I mean, we're talking out way beyond 23 what you're talking here, and really, it's -- y'all don't 24 provide fire protection in the ETJ you have now, other than 25 one truck. Volunteers take care of it. 2-22-10 170 1 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: That's true. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, I mean, I can see -- 3 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: They're under the same -- 4 they have the same liability problems that the City or 5 anybody else have that go out there. If they hook onto one 6 of the black hydrants and there doesn't happen to be enough 7 water, for whatever reason, all kinds of problems can be 8 created. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I understand. But, I mean, 10 there -- it's -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- I don't like the scare 12 tactic thing. I don't think a lot of people out there do. 13 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: I don't either, but the -- I 14 mean, that's -- that's the facts of the matter. That's -- 15 you don't know. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's all a matter of opinion. 17 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And my opinion just happens 19 to be different than yours. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One of the things -- last time 21 we met on this topic, you brought up that same information on 22 fire insurance or homeowners' insurance, and I went out and 23 checked. I checked with the company that writes 40 percent 24 of the policies for Kerr County. Their rates are identical 25 inside the city limits versus outside the city limits, and 2-22-10 171 1 it's done by zip code, not anything else. They don't -- 2 insurance companies, the one I talked to -- I only talked to 3 one -- do not have the capability or the means to go into 4 every community in the nation and do all this detailed 5 analysis. They average it nationwide, state-wide, in Texas 6 anyway. There's a rate in Comfort, there's a rate for 78013, 7 78 -- whatever Center Point is, a rate for Kerrville, Hunt, 8 Ingram. A Tierra Linda homeowner pays the exact same rate 9 for their home as someone who lives in Riverhills. Same 10 house. Exact same house. 11 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Well, I don't know which 12 insurance company you talked to. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: State Farm. 14 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Okay. I talked to two 15 others. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it doesn't make any 17 difference. I think we need to be careful in making these 18 statements that you're going to save these homeowners 30 to 19 300 percent of the their insurance, when it may happen for 20 some, but it isn't necessarily going to be that way. But 21 that's not -- but y'all skipped over my question. And I 22 understand the fire issue. My question still is, at what 23 point is a property owner going to have to and want to put in 24 a small municipal system? At what point is that property 25 owner going to have to build the system to meet the 2-22-10 172 1 specifications of a city water system versus the T.C.E.Q. 2 specifications they're currently using -- used to? And 3 saying you know, is it going to be two? Is it going to be 4 five lots? Is it going to be 100? 5 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: It's not gauged to lots. 6 It's gauged to subdivisions of that -- of that area. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All of them will be subject to 8 it? 9 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: And -- technically, yes, but 10 we -- by holding that the CCN, we can release an area, just 11 like we were talking about with U.G.R.A.; we can release that 12 area if it is obvious that it's prohibitive for either party 13 to do. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: See, I think the -- I mean, 15 that's -- this is a huge point in my mind, because I think 16 what y'all are doing is very good, and I wish the City of 17 Kerrville would have done it a long time ago, offered to -- 18 start to offer a way to get certain areas off of ground 19 water. Y'all have the only surface water available, but I 20 think it's overly burdensome. That could all be done 21 voluntarily. There's no reason for a CCN for the City of 22 Kerrville to start selling water, being a water wheeler to 23 people in the same service area or larger, you know, if 24 people want to be part of it. My problem comes in when you 25 go -- when it's not clear to the public up front. They go in 2-22-10 173 1 and put in a three-home subdivision, and it's going to have 2 some sort of central water system. Well, what y'all are 3 asking the public to do is saying, "Trust us, we'll take care 4 of you in the future." My view is, exclude them now. Give 5 the criteria for being excluded, so then the public knows 6 what to address; developers know what's going on. And that 7 way, I think I could be very quickly on board and support 8 this whole CCN. 9 The only other point -- then I'll be quiet. The 10 only other point is, I would be much -- "happier" is probably 11 the best word, if the Center Point area would be excluded, 12 and it could be added back in if needed, rather than have the 13 County or Kendall County Water Improvement District or 14 U.G.R.A. have to come back, go to the City and and negotiate 15 to get out of it. This project is ongoing. It is a very 16 high likelihood that it's going to go forward. The State's 17 invested a lot of money. This County's invested a lot of 18 money. And this is going to be an impediment in my mind, 19 because you have talked about U.G.R.A. I'm not certain 20 U.G.R.A. is going to be the person who's administering or 21 working in that system, and I think that it needs to be 22 excluded at this point. And then, if its needs to come back 23 in later, certainly the CCN can be amended to include that 24 area. But I see this as causing a -- getting a huge -- or a 25 pretty significant part of that service area, which is going 2-22-10 174 1 to be needed to justify this whole project. It's just going 2 to be a problem. Just exclude it up front. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm glad Jonathan came back 4 to that, Bruce, because that is extremely important, as you 5 know from the many years we've talked about this and so 6 forth. And the project, as it stands right now, is -- and 7 it's defined as essentially the Center Point region within 8 78010, essentially, and it goes eastward following the 9 corridor to Comfort. Now, there are other subdivisions 10 there. And my whole point is -- and I'm picking up on 11 Jonathan's point, because I think it's extremely valid and 12 important to us. We don't need to be confronted by 13 unforeseen impediments, and this could be an unforeseen 14 impediment. And I'd rather deal with it outright now and 15 have -- and know that we're not going to be confronted by 16 unforeseen impediments; i.e., this, when we're moving 17 forward. Because if U.G.R.A. decides, after their 18 feasibility study is completed, that they wish not to do 19 that, then we're going to find another way to do that, and 20 the County will be the initiator of it, working with probably 21 the W.C. & I.D. out of Comfort. Now, that means that they 22 can come back this way and provide water, and we'll work out 23 those other issues. Obviously, there are issues we have to 24 work out. But we're -- we want to stay within the parameter 25 of who's going to -- or how are we going to accomplish this. 2-22-10 175 1 And I would -- I would much prefer that we do not have this 2 as a potential unintended consequence or impediment to our 3 moving forward on this project. 4 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Your point is well-taken. 5 And I will say to you that our position is not to be an 6 impediment, but a -- a part of the ongoing constructive 7 package. That is our -- our whole point in doing this. For 8 too long, we have not -- we have ignored these problems that 9 exist, and I think it's imperative that we work together and 10 that we improve these areas. We are the only supplier in the 11 county that has the conjunctive use, and we are working very 12 hard to expand that capability, and this is just a step in 13 that process. There is -- the U.G.R.A. was not going to be 14 the operator out there. They were going to wheel water to 15 these other operators, which is fine. We've got no problem 16 wholesaling water. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was going to ask that 18 question, because I thought Todd said -- I didn't mean to 19 interrupt you, but he said wholesalers are not affected. 20 That -- that's the point you were trying to make at this 21 point? 22 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If they determine they 24 wanted to be a wholesaler to other purveyors? 25 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Yeah, that's not a problem. 2-22-10 176 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Then this doesn't -- 2 doesn't foreshadow that? 3 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: No, it is not a problem. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it is a potential 5 impediment to the project if you're bringing in another 6 entity, because that's going to be driven by connections. 7 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Yeah. Well, they -- they 8 have -- "they" being anybody that's going to provide water to 9 the public, is going to have to have a supply and a treatment 10 and a distribution system. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 12 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: And all this does is prepare 13 for that. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, no, all this does is say 15 you have to talk to the City of Kerrville before you can do 16 that system in Center Point. 17 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Well -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because if it's Comfort, they 19 have a system. They have water supplies. They're -- they 20 have to get additional to come into Kerr County, W C. & I.D., 21 but what's going to have to happen if this goes through as-is 22 is that before they can even talk to the -- or put it in 23 their economics, the customer base in Center Point, they're 24 going to have to come to the City of Kerrville and ask to 25 be -- this area be excluded. You're adding another whole 2-22-10 177 1 step into the process, which is already extremely 2 complicated, for no reason, when the area could be added in 3 later. 4 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Why not take it out later? 5 Same difference. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, 'cause one has to -- 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, it's a whole lot different. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd rather see it taken out 10 now. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Take it out now and put it in 12 writing. 13 MR. PARTON: If I can make one point regarding 14 that, that proposed map of the Center Point service area 15 comes right up and maybe incorporates or includes part of the 16 existing Kerrville city limits. Kerrville has water lines 17 that go out to the airport right now, so what you're 18 suggesting is we -- we cut out that whole area. The plan 19 that evaluates -- the Center Point plan, excuse me, has 20 already been delayed now. The original study was supposed to 21 have Phase I completed in April. That Phase I deadline has 22 now been pushed to August. So -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whose Phase I? Yours or 24 ours? 25 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: No. 2-22-10 178 1 MR. PARTON: Center Point plan, the U.G.R.A. study 2 to determine the water service for the Center Point area. 3 That study now, the Phase I has been pushed back. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think they -- I think 5 they received approval on Phase A of the four-part phases, 6 just as we did. Phase A has been completed, and I think 7 we're both working on the second phase right now. 8 MR. PARTON: I'm just going by what I've been told. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Be that as it may. 10 MR. PARTON: But the bottom line is, this system, 11 which may or may not happen, you've got other CCN holders who 12 would have to agree to turn off their wells and take their 13 water through this proposal. You've got a lot of other 14 things that have to happen in order to voluntarily conform, 15 as that has to come forward to make the Center Point plan 16 work. And we're on feasibility to determine whether it's 17 even financially feasible at this point, is my understanding. 18 So, what you're suggesting is that we take an area that's 19 immediately abutting the city limits right now, in -- 20 including the existing ETJ, and take that out of this CCN 21 application that's there, on a system that we don't know, 22 number one, if it's feasible. Number two, realistically, if 23 it's going to be able to happen and come together. And if 24 this proposal falls apart, then if I heard correctly, the 25 plan is then to look at other alternatives to be able to 2-22-10 179 1 continue to provide within this same area. And what we're 2 saying is, there's a lot of unknowns regarding that 3 particular proposal. And the discussions we've had with the 4 U.G.R.A. Board, too, has been the fact that we'd be willing 5 to work -- we're not here to prevent that system from 6 happening. We're not here to prevent that program. But, on 7 the other hand, there's a lot of unknowns out there with 8 regard to that proposal. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What we're saying is U.G.R.A. 10 is not the only player in that package. There's a lot of 11 others that there's been a lot of discussion, and the 12 economics -- one of the things that helps the economics is if 13 you add Comfort in, which is a huge help to Kerr County 14 groundwater if we can get Comfort on the surface water. 15 That's -- and that is a very -- and those discussions have 16 been going on for two years. So, I mean, yes, there's things 17 to happen. I just think that this is another unnecessary 18 bump, for no reason. It can -- the CCN's can be amended. It 19 can be added. 20 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: That's provided that another 21 CCN isn't put in there, and/or the existing CCN's expanded. 22 If that happens, it can't be expanded. And then you get back 23 into the same thing we've got right now. If -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, no. That -- that 25 members of boards and councils and commissioners change, and 2-22-10 180 1 agreements made by one may not be honored by the next. 2 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Same way with Commissioners 3 Court. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. I think it's best that 5 we try to get things in writing up front before things get to 6 the point to where they can't -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all -- if you want to 8 include it, give us -- if it's requested to come out, it 9 comes out, without months and years of negotiations like so 10 many of our negotiations have happened. Because I just don't 11 see -- I don't see the down side to the City's pledging here 12 just to allow that project to go forward if necessary. And 13 that area gets opted out -- Center Point area gets opted out 14 automatically if we ask. 15 MR. PARTON: One of the -- to that point -- I'm 16 sorry, Judge. To that point, the initial conversation we had 17 with U.G.R.A. -- we're going to be on the U.G.R.A. agenda 18 coming up here in March, but the -- that was the preliminary 19 direction that we were talking to U.G.R.A. about, is coming 20 up with a memorandum of understanding about what would happen 21 if their project were to be a successful project. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If the project what? 23 MR. PARTON: If that Center Point project were to 24 be a successful project, that we were working out a 25 memorandum of agreement as to working with them to amend our 2-22-10 181 1 CCN. Or we could even -- we don't even have to amend the 2 CCN. We could also do a mutual service agreement where we 3 say, hey, you know, in this area, that we'll agree that they 4 will be the service provider for that area. So, there's a 5 couple other options you have with regard to some 6 flexibility, provided that the Center Point project does 7 prove out, and the steps are made to get it initiated. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it would be helpful to 9 have it expanded to include the county. 10 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: To what? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Expand that agreement to 12 include the county. 13 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Well, that's fine. We want 14 the -- you all and anyone else who is involved in this to be 15 -- to come together and -- and come up with a solution. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: If these discussions and all these 17 now unanswered questions have no other effect than to call 18 attention to the -- the 1-mile ETJ issue that we have 19 outstanding right now, which has been outstanding for -- five 20 years, probably? Legislature first mandated it -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we had an agreement, sort 22 of, for a while. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, but I think that's job one. 24 We know that exists, and I think getting that resolved would 25 be at least a half step, if not a giant step into resolving 2-22-10 182 1 some of these issues. Because a lot of these issues mesh 2 together. Even though they're -- they're separate 3 considerations, they mesh together. So, I think it just 4 gives further force to the -- to the need to get this ETJ 5 thing resolved promptly, and then let's move to the next 6 step. 7 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: I will assure you, we want 8 that also. And as a -- a side note to this, Mr. Letz and I 9 have a meeting on Wednesday to see what we can do to wrap 10 that part of it up. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Hopefully at our next meeting, we 12 can see a proposed agreement, as can your Council. 13 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Suits me. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm holding my breath. 15 (Laughter.) 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's two proposed competing 17 documents that are being looked at. One's drafted by the 18 City, one being drafted by the County. So, there's -- we're 19 still a long ways apart on that agreement. But we're -- 20 we're making progress slowly. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Not going to happen if you don't 22 work at it. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I still think -- and I see a 24 question there. I still have -- at some point, I really 25 would like to hear an answer to the question I had about what 2-22-10 183 1 -- what triggers the rules to be implemented, of a higher 2 standard. 3 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: The initiation of a 4 subdivision. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But how much -- but it 6 doesn't -- shouldn't that include density? 7 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If you don't have density in 9 a subdivision, a city water -- you know, spec water system is 10 not feasible or affordable. 11 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Well, this is part of our -- 12 the ETJ and the City's current agreement and ordinance. 13 Five acres or more, there is no requirement for a city water 14 system. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's still not high 16 density. You get less than -- you get 4 and a half acres, 17 and you put two houses on it, that's not density. That 18 doesn't justify it, in my mind, a city spec water system for 19 fire flow. 20 MR. PARTON: You have to have a minimum of 5 acres 21 to put your own well and your own on-site septic, so 5 acres 22 is the benchmark that we use. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You still don't have enough 24 density to justify a system like you're proposing. 25 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: If you have less than 2-22-10 184 1 5 acres, you, in all probability, do. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The gentleman here had a question. 3 Your name, sir? 4 MR. ADAMS: My name's Stanley Adams. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, Mr. Adams. 6 MR. ADAMS: And I don't want to interrupt what's 7 going on here, but since it's -- we may be reaching a point 8 where the discussion shuts down, and before it does, I have 9 some questions to ask. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I think now is your opportunity, if 11 it relates to the City's application for a CCN. Is that why 12 you're here, sir? 13 MR. ADAMS: I'm a little hard of hearing. What did 14 you say? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you here because of the City's 16 application -- 17 MR. ADAMS: Absolutely. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, fire away. These gentlemen 19 are here to answer those questions. 20 MR. ADAMS: Well, I'm completely ignorant on where 21 this situation stands, but since I first heard of it through 22 third parties, I've had some concerns. And I guess number 23 one is, I'll state I've spent a fair portion of my life in 24 the development business, and I know that it's not cheap to 25 install water lines in the hills like we have around here. 2-22-10 185 1 And first question is -- is whether the real purpose of this 2 is for fire prevention, or that's the -- the public need that 3 would be necessary to make it fly, or whether it's for 4 establishing more subdivisions out in the hills about us. 5 And -- or third is whether it's to take water out of that 6 area and gravity flow it down to Comanche Trace and places 7 like that. And my -- I would strongly -- I have a strong 8 difference of opinion with some folks over the adequacy of 9 the existing supply of water for the city. I think we proved 10 that at times it can be inadequate, and that aquifers, as San 11 Antonio demonstrates, can be as bad or worse than water out 12 of the river. Yes, you can store water in aquifers. Maybe. 13 Or it may run off somewhere else. 14 But, you know, question number one, is the -- is 15 the real intent for this expansion of the ETJ? As I alluded 16 to earlier, it's going to be -- to do anything with water in 17 terms of a system is going to be expensive, somewhere between 18 expensive and damn expensive and prohibitively expensive, 19 depending on the scale of it. And I see, being the paranoid 20 and negative so-and-so I can be on occasion -- oh, that may 21 be a colloquialism -- what if the City, you know, gets into 22 something that it bites off, and as our times become less 23 affluent, you'll find that they've bitten off more than they 24 can chew. Then, you know, where does that leave everybody? 25 If I were the City, one of the great temptations, I think, 2-22-10 186 1 would be to try to off-load this tar baby onto a private 2 water company, and they may exist around. But their rates, 3 et cetera, are usually slightly short of exorbitant. I have 4 an intimate familiarity of one in Travis County, and I even 5 -- even was on city council in a suburban area of Austin. We 6 had brought before us a question of a developer that had a 7 private water system, and every time he got a divorce, the 8 water rates in the subdivision went up. (Laughter.) 9 And, anyway, then if the water district that was 10 organized by the county and sold out to -- it's been so 11 long -- the South Water Resources or whatever the hell in 12 Houston, which ultimately will be bought out by some New York 13 Stock Exchange outfit that's held ribbons and produces 14 profits, and there's only one place that's going to come 15 from, and that's from water users. And if you don't have 16 enough of those, that gets to be impractical. And so I'll 17 just say I have some severe concerns that I'd like to have a 18 little bit more satisfaction on, and that I have something 19 like just shy of 15 acres that fall in this proposed project, 20 and it, for better or for worse, is served by the city now. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, let's see if these gentlemen 22 can answer your questions, Mr. Adams, okay? 23 MR. ADAMS: Let's what? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's see if these gentlemen can 25 answer your questions, okay? 2-22-10 187 1 MR. ADAMS: Well, the point I'd just like to make 2 is that I think they probably wished they hadn't have taken 3 over the service to the subdivision I have, and that there's 4 been quite a bit of -- there's always something broken. 5 Supposedly, it's been fixed, but we've got -- almost every 6 fireplug on the line is black. And I just -- they raise 7 those -- those areas of concern about additional expansion. 8 And God bless you; I wouldn't have your jobs for all the tea 9 in China. 10 MR. PARTON: Well, if I can try to -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Surely. 12 MR. PARTON: -- make sure we got the questions 13 correct, your first question was what is the real purpose, 14 and how does fire flow fit into that? That was your first 15 question? 16 MR. ADAMS: Well, yeah. 17 MR. PARTON: Then the next question is, where is 18 the city in its existing water supply? The third question 19 was, what happens if the city has bitten off more than they 20 can chew? And the fourth question, I wasn't sure. Something 21 about you had 50 acres within the proposed CCN -- 22 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Fifteen. 23 MR. PARTON: I'm sorry. 24 MR. ADAMS: Just shy of, mas or menos. 25 MR. PARTON: Okay. So, does that -- are those your 2-22-10 188 1 questions? Those are your questions? 2 MR. ADAMS: Concerns, yeah. 3 MR. PARTON: Okay. So, real purpose. Do you want 4 to go into the intent behind -- the original intent behind 5 Council's -- 6 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: All right. Well, as I said 7 before, the whole intent is to save the taxpayers money in 8 the long run. That's it. That's the bottom line. I'll give 9 you an example. We took over Riverhill some several years 10 ago, and that was a pretty good subdivision compared to some 11 out there. And we have spent millions of the taxpayers' 12 dollars fixing that system. And what we don't want to do is 13 to repeat that mistake. That's the whole purpose. 14 MR. PARTON: Just -- and part of -- I think part of 15 your question was on the fire prevention side. What we're -- 16 what our concern is, if you're in the ETJ right now, if you 17 build a system that is a -- a municipal system that serves 18 a certain level of density, then you're required to put in 19 adequate fire flow, fire protection. If you're in another 20 water purveyor's operational CCN or service area, then that 21 provider can then make a decision that that system's no 22 longer available for firefighting. So, what we want to 23 insure is that when systems are required to be designed with 24 fire flow, that that fire flow system is maintained as 25 available for firefighting purposes. The other question you 2-22-10 189 1 had is, is this an attempt by the City to be able to take 2 your water and transfer that to somebody else? No, we're not 3 trying to take over anybody's water rights, and a CCN doesn't 4 grant us that authority to take somebody's water rights. 5 What the CCN is about is establishing a given service area 6 for the sale -- for the retail sale of water in that certain 7 area. With that question answered, I'm going to go to the 8 next one about, is the City biting off more than it can chew? 9 If you have a development of a system that's in the far -- or 10 in a remote area, the City has an option then to be able to 11 negotiate with the developer to exclude that area, or to do a 12 mutual service enfranchisement for that area so that if there 13 was an outlying area and it made financial sense and 14 operational sense to detach that from the CCN, we have that 15 ability to be able to negotiate that out and address that 16 particular type of situation. 17 MR. ADAMS: I would bet that no one other than a 18 public corporation could afford a water system that would 19 meet the city's standards. 20 MR. PARTON: Well, we've got -- they're happening 21 out there. I mean, it's a common thing, but here I don't 22 know. The question of the adequacy of our water supply, one 23 of the purposes behind the CCN is for us to determine what 24 our ultimate service area is going to be so we can make 25 plans -- adequate plans on how to fully serve the area within 2-22-10 190 1 that geographic boundary. Right now, we have the ability to 2 be able to grow our city by another 33 percent. We have 3 about 9,500 to 10,000 accounts right now. We have -- 4 MR. ADAMS: I read that with great fascination. My 5 only comment is, why do we require water taps for builders? 6 That's a horrible mistake. 7 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: That was because -- pardon 8 me. Let me get up where y'all can see. The reason that was 9 done was our conservation plan that was in effect at the 10 time, and still in effect, that was the trigger point that 11 created that situation. It wasn't a lack of water. It 12 wasn't a lack of ability to produce. It wasn't a lack of 13 distribution. It was the -- the percentage of safe operating 14 capacity as determined by the -- partially because of the 15 river master cutoff. 16 MR. ADAMS: Maybe by somebody not here in 17 Kerrville. 18 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Yes, that's correct. 19 MR. ADAMS: So -- 20 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: And we are addressing that, 21 in that we are putting in a new production well, putting in a 22 new ASR well. And, Charlie, correct me if I'm wrong; in our 23 current two ASR wells, we have 460 or 470 million gallons 24 already stored that's there and available. 25 MR. HASTINGS: We're up to about 530 now. 2-22-10 191 1 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: But the point is that we are 2 not out of water. It was the -- the conservation plan that 3 was adopted was triggered. We didn't anticipate some of the 4 things that happened. We are now going back and looking at 5 it, fixing that so that that won't be a problem in the 6 future. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, gentlemen. We appreciate 8 that. 9 MR. ADAMS: -- going way beyond our ETJ, and -- 10 like, by about 50 or 100 miles or more, for water. 11 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: We're not talking about that, 12 anything close to that. 13 MR. ADAMS: I know you're not, but I'm just saying 14 you should. 15 MR. PARTON: Look at other sources. 16 MR. VOELKEL: Question. Can I still ask a 17 question? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: You had a question for these 19 gentlemen? 20 MR. VOELKEL: I think so. I'm still -- I'm still 21 dealing with this fire prevention issue. I'm going to the 22 letter now that the City Manager wrote to you guys. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 24 MR. VOELKEL: On the very first page, I'm just 25 confused. In the second paragraph, we talk about that one of 2-22-10 192 1 the City's key objectives is to insure that firefighting 2 capabilities are maintained and provided within the city 3 limits and its ETJ, and then it stops there. It doesn't say 4 beyond another mile, which is what the CCN wants to do, which 5 kind of bothers me. But then the next sentence really says 6 the City believes that obtaining a CCN is the only way that 7 we can insure firefighting capabilities in the area. And I'm 8 confused there, because I thought the City of Kerrville 9 subdivision ordinance provided firefighting capabilities for 10 the city and for development in the ETJ, without the need of 11 a CCN to do that. I'm curious as to why the CCN brings about 12 the ability for them to enforce firefighting in the city and 13 in the ETJ. 14 MR. PARTON: It goes back -- I'm sorry. It goes 15 back to this point. Yes, you have to meet subdivision, 16 whether it's the County''s or City's. And what we're working 17 towards right now is a blended standard within the ETJ. That 18 will ostensibly, according to what we want to see, have some 19 firefighting provision within it, and so we'll see what 20 happens. But the bottom line is, a developer can come in, 21 design a system, meet those design specifications, 22 specifically include fire protection as a requirement. After 23 that's installed, after that's piped in within the ground, 24 the hydrants are there, then that operator can make their own 25 determination as to whether that system's available for 2-22-10 193 1 firefighting. And they can decide literally within the 2 course of a day or two, who knows what, that they no longer 3 make that system available for firefighting. So, for the 4 purposes of that subdivision, there no longer is a fire 5 suppression system for that subdivision. And so what we're 6 trying to do is insure that the systems that need to are 7 designed with that fire suppression system in place, and that 8 that fire system remains available for firefighting purposes. 9 Which is not the case right now. 10 MR. VOELKEL: In other words, a provider -- I put 11 in a subdivision. I put it in to city standards. It's got 12 fire hydrants; it's ready to go for whatever fire flow is 13 necessary. That provider, at that point, has the option 14 whether or not he's going to provide me that much water or 15 not? Is that up to him to do that? 16 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Under state law, that's 17 right. He can paint those -- he can paint those hydrants 18 black. 19 MR. VOELKEL: ETJ rules has nothing to do -- what 20 you're saying is you provide fire protection. I do it, and 21 yet the purveyor of the water doesn't have to comply? 22 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: That's right. 23 MR. PARTON: Correct. They put the pipe in the 24 ground. The same pipe, the same water is there. It's no 25 longer -- but they decide that system's no longer available 2-22-10 194 1 for firefighting. 2 MR. ADAMS: My current question is, am I going to 3 get taxed for this? 4 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: No. No, we -- the City has 5 no ability to tax anything except what is inside of our city 6 limits, period. We can't tax anything. 7 MR. ADAMS: Doggone. 8 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: I'll make an exception, if 9 you'd like. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more questions from any member 11 of the Court with regard to these issues? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just one, Judge. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Todd, what is your timeline 15 for moving forward? I asked that, because it's important to 16 what we're doing. 17 MR. PARTON: The T.C.E.Q. granted us an additional 18 amount of time, to April 15th, so that it can continue 19 working the map. Mr. Hastings alluded to a couple water 20 providers who are out there who don't have CCN's, so we want 21 to extract them from the map, and so we do so have some of 22 these islands out there we want to evaluate and consider 23 taking out. So, they granted us an additional amount of time 24 to April 15th. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To send a revised map? 2-22-10 195 1 MR. PARTON: Correct, to get that back to them. 2 What we are wanting to do is to -- just like we did with you 3 guys, that we want to go to Headwaters Groundwater, we want 4 to go to U.G.R.A. and have an update to them at their next 5 board meetings. We'd love to be able to come back to you 6 guys closer to the map revision to update you on where we 7 are, but we really want to have an opportunity for everybody 8 to know exactly where we are, what we're doing as we hit that 9 April 15th map submission deadline to T.C.E.Q. From there, 10 Charlie, T.C.E.Q. process -- 11 MR. HASTINGS: It would be -- from that point 12 forward, it would be whatever their process is, which would 13 include the contested case hearings. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Charlie, you know, since this 15 all started, your hair has gotten a lot grayer. 16 MR. HASTINGS: Yeah. It's not the years, it's the 17 mileage. (Laughter.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more questions? Thank you, 19 gentlemen. We appreciate you being here, -- 20 MR. PARTON: Thank you. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: -- giving us the information. 22 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Thank you for letting us 23 come. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm sure we'll be talking more about 25 these and other issues in the future. 2-22-10 196 1 COUNCILMAN MOTHERAL: Good. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I am told that we got through 3 the entire agenda. Were we to come back to some items? I'm 4 looking at Mr. Malek out there. So -- 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that what we're coming back to, 7 is 15? Okay. Let's go back on the agenda, then, to Item 15, 8 to consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on 9 personnel issue regarding insurance coverage, privacy 10 officer, and new business agreements and signatures required 11 for Kerr County. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: She was in here. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Where's Ms. Hyde? 14 MS. BAILEY: She was here just a minute ago. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 MS. BAILEY: She did provide me with a copy of the 17 agreement. I was just reading it here as we were talking 18 about the CCN issue. It's pretty straightforward. 19 Essentially, it's just an agreement with us and Willis of 20 Texas, Incorporated, to require them to keep our HIPAA 21 information private, and if they use it, to utilize it in 22 such a way as to keep it private, as well as to require their 23 third-party agreement subcontractors to also keep that 24 information private. I don't see any reason you shouldn't 25 sign it and agree to it and authorize Eva to sign it as our 2-22-10 197 1 privacy officer. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I think we have an obligation under 3 the law to do all that anyway, don't we? 4 MS. BAILEY: Yes. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, this is a one-time 7 thing? She signs everything from this point on? 8 MS. BAILEY: I think you probably will still want 9 to know what's in the contracts that she's signing, so -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is correct. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That was the whole question 12 this morning. Is she going to be signing documents that the 13 Court doesn't know what -- what are the contents or not? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And really still don't know. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't know the answer. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not sure we want to know 17 about some of those. 18 MS. BAILEY: If you would rather put this on the 19 next agenda, even though we're obligated to be in compliance 20 as of last week, I can't see that we could be faulted for 21 needing to look at what we're signing. If you'd rather have 22 a copy of this provided to you to review, and then approve it 23 next time, we could do that. 24 MR. MALEK: They didn't get a copy of it during the 25 break? 2-22-10 198 1 MS. BAILEY: No. I didn't even get one till just 2 this minute during the discussion. 3 MR. MALEK: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Commissioner Letz wasn't 5 privy to the discussion we had this morning. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Nor was I. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nor the Judge. 8 MS. BAILEY: The issue is, well, twofold. One 9 issue is just that we're mandated to have agreements with 10 people who have access to our privacy information, such that 11 not only are we obligated to keep it private, but they're 12 obligated to keep it private too. Obviously, a good idea; 13 nothing wrong with that contract. The second aspect of it 14 was that, since we have a privacy officer, that the privacy 15 officer needs to sign that agreement instead of the Judge, 16 and so Eva was asking for authority for her to sign the 17 agreement instead of the Judge, because she is the designated 18 privacy officer. She says that the Court has done that 19 previously, and so if she's already the privacy officer, that 20 makes sense. I reviewed the agreement. It does do what it 21 purported to do, which is to obligate our -- our other party 22 to keep our HIPAA information private, so I'm comfortable 23 with it. It doesn't provide for any consequences for failure 24 to do that, though. But -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why would it be necessary for 2-22-10 199 1 Ms. Hyde to sign the agreement, as opposed to the Judge to 2 sign the agreement? 3 MS. BAILEY: You'll have to get her to answer that. 4 She understood it very clearly. I was just looking at the -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: She says federal law says 6 she shall. 7 MR. MALEK: The Judge can't be a privacy officer. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You work it out, Buster. 9 I've got a meeting. 10 (Commissioner Williams left the meeting.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I must not be the privacy officer. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: She's the privacy officer. 13 MS. BAILEY: You have previously designated her as 14 the same. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You really don't want to be 16 the privacy officer. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But this is -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: It has to flow through her, all of 19 this -- her office, all this HIPAA information with her 20 handling those claims and so forth. She's got a need to be 21 privy to that. I have no need to and no desire to. And so 22 she's dealing with these third-party contractors that we're 23 using and so forth. And, now, I understood there was another 24 issue, whether or not this was going to give her carte 25 blanche authority; anything dealing with the authority of the 2-22-10 200 1 privacy officer henceforth, she could continue to sign 2 agreements. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think that's -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a totally different issue. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think that came up, 6 but that is a good question. I would certainly add that to 7 my questions. 8 MS. BAILEY: It would not be my recommendation that 9 you give her that authority. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But I think the big question 12 of the day was, shouldn't -- you know, I have no problem with 13 her being the privacy officer and being the signer of the 14 agreements, but I think this Court -- I want to know what the 15 agreement is. That's -- that's the whole deal right there. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Here comes the privacy officer. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're authorizing her to 18 sign documents and just go on with it without -- without us 19 even knowing what -- what those documents are. I don't think 20 that's the right way to do business. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. You're -- you're just unaware 22 of the content of the document that -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that she's proposing to sign on 25 behalf of Kerr County? 2-22-10 201 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And if she's the privacy 4 officer, she's the privacy officer. I'm not going to argue 5 that point at all. 6 MS. BAILEY: I think Jonathan missed part of the 7 discussion, where the whole reason for this being on this 8 agenda and being crucial to happen is that apparently there 9 was a federal law just passed February the 4th that required 10 us to have this all accomplished by February 17th. Since 11 it's now the 22nd, we're out of compliance. And my argument 12 was if they can't give us any more notice than that, they 13 can't fault us for being a little bit behind. So, if you 14 want to put it off till the next agenda, I'm willing to 15 defend -- defend you for any sanctions imposed. However, I 16 did read it; it seems like a pretty straightforward 17 agreement, and if you want to authorize her to sign this one 18 this time, I'd be comfortable with that. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, you've read the thing 20 and explained to us what the agreement is about. It's -- 21 it's about our -- those other folks not dealing with our 22 HIPAA stuff and us not dealing with their HIPAA stuff, and -- 23 MS. BAILEY: Well, actually, we have always, as the 24 owner or the controller of the information, been obligated to 25 keep it secret from -- from dissemination, and this contract 2-22-10 202 1 merely puts that obligation one step down further and says 2 also, people with whom we contract -- in this case, Willis -- 3 has that same obligation to keep our information private, and 4 to, if they have to pass it on to a subcontractor for some 5 reason, also insure that that subcontractor complies with 6 those same privacy rules. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now that I know what that 8 is, I don't mind. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, that's very simple. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is very simple. 12 MS. BAILEY: My only concern is that it doesn't say 13 that if they mess it up, what are the consequences. But 14 since they have an obligation under the contract, you know, I 15 think the consequences become clear. 16 MS. HYDE: The secretary's the Secretary of the 17 Department of Labor. 18 MS. BAILEY: She has a provision here that talks 19 about the privacy and security changes, and it does talk 20 about statute -- I suppose that these are statutory penalties 21 that are not included in the contract. But it does say 22 failure to comply can result in civil, monetary penalties 23 ranging from $100 all the way up to one and a half million 24 dollars, depending on how culpable you are. So, since those 25 consequences are attached by statute to that contract, then 2-22-10 203 1 that concern goes away. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why don't we just be done with 3 it? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do it. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's it called that we're 6 doing? 7 MS. BAILEY: Business agreement. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're not authorizing 9 anybody to sign anything. She already has that 10 authorization. 11 MS. BAILEY: Well, no, she's the privacy officer. 12 I think you have to authorize her to sign this particular 13 contract, which I would suggest would be a motion to 14 authorize the privacy officer, Eva Hyde, to sign the business 15 associate agreement made between Kerr County and Willis of 16 Texas as of February 1, 2010. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 20 indicated. Further question or discussion? All in favor, 21 signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Now that the 2-22-10 204 1 Sheriff's not present, do we want to recall Item 14? I don't 2 see a great clamoring here; I guess not. Sounded like a good 3 idea to me. (Laughter.) 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's go out to Inn of the 5 Hills and do it. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, okay. 7 MS. HYDE: Can I ask a question, Judge? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: You have a question? 9 MS. HYDE: Please. On these, I've never done that 10 before, never had something where y'all would let me sign 11 something. Which is -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Don't get used to it. 13 MS. HYDE: Right. It's out of my thingy. I mean, 14 that's why I said this morning, I still think that every 15 single one of these ought to come to the Court, and then the 16 Court tells me that it's okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Apparently -- yeah, and that's the 18 way we'll deal in the future. But apparently the federal law 19 suggests that the privacy officer is the one that needs to be 20 the party to these agreements, because the privacy officer's 21 going to be dealing with these third parties with whom this 22 information passes back and forth, and apparently that's the 23 rationale. If that's the way the feds want to do it -- 24 MS. HYDE: We still have four that we don't have 25 signatures on, 'cause we don't have them yet. So, how do we 2-22-10 205 1 deal with those? 2 MS. BAILEY: Are they going to be exactly the same 3 except for the party? 4 MS. HYDE: I don't know. I don't know. I'm not -- 5 I have no idea. So, do we bring it back each court, or do we 6 do as Mr. Baldwin said; we can have a special meeting? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I don't think we can be 8 faulted for not being in compliance if we haven't had the 9 agreements tendered to us and we were unable to approve them. 10 MS. BAILEY: I can defend you on that one, Judge. 11 MR. MALEK: I think the fines don't apply to you 12 guys; it applies to the other party. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: You got anything else to come before 14 the meeting today, gentlemen? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just under our announcement 16 stuff. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Try an announcement. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll try an announcement. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does this have anything to 20 do with water? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. No. No, this is a nice 22 one. I meant to say it earlier this morning, but Len sent 23 some of his crew over to the Little League fields and bladed 24 off the parking lot. That actually is addressed in the 25 agreement that we're reworking right now, but it came to 2-22-10 206 1 light that that is in the agreement. So, if someone makes a 2 comment to any of us as to why a county truck was out over 3 there blading off the Little League, one reason is because we 4 own the property, and also Len did a real good job over 5 there; spent the better part of the afternoon. I just wanted 6 to let everybody know he did that. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you this -- 8 nevermind. I'll talk to you. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, under the -- kind of 10 under the liaison stuff, I'm getting word to Len that some of 11 that dirt that's being taken out of the site where we're 12 going to build the new sheriff and detention -- or not 13 detention. Probation. We need to stockpile some of that 14 over at the Ag Barn, because when we remove that material 15 that's in the old arena now and move it over as we've been 16 requested, -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll have a hole. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- we're going to need 19 something to fill it back with. I thought that would be a 20 good thing, being as we have access to it. And -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's probably good dirt. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I can assure you, I'd like to 23 have that in my yard. But I can't have it. Anyway, 24 that's -- that's something they took care of earlier, I 25 think. 2-22-10 207 1 JUDGE TINLEY: You got anything? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just want to nominate Jody 3 for president. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Leonard again had a drainage issue 5 out by the -- the old horse barn that we've been reworking 6 for Maintenance, 4-H, Ag, and all those folks out there. Tim 7 reports that he's done a wonderful job resolving that issue. 8 I mentioned earlier that we had the preconstruction meeting 9 on the new building. I think there was some concern on the 10 general contractor for the building, the finish out, whether 11 or not we would be able, in a timely manner, to get the site 12 work done. Leonard was needing some points shot, and I think 13 Mr. Voelkel immediately started doing those the following 14 day, or maybe two days following. I went by there Friday 15 afternoon, and Len's already started moving the detention 16 pond. He's got his screening up; he's draining the -- he 17 earlier drained the pond. He's probably way head of that 18 curve. So, if those guys had any thought that he wasn't 19 going to be able to get around to it quick enough, they 20 better get ready to jump in there behind him, because he's 21 going to get it. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You didn't see any axis deer 23 hanging out there in any of those trees, did you? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Haven't looked, but I'll go look. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If there's any out there, let 2-22-10 208 1 me know. I'll go help you with some of them. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They're out there, a bunch 3 of them. 4 MS. HARGIS: Judge, I had one question. We've had 5 some people come and want bids for the arena, and we're not 6 ready for that. I just wanted to be sure that I was online 7 with that. We're collecting their cards and -- and giving 8 them to Jody, so I do want y'all to know we are having people 9 come into my office, and calls on it. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think Jody's keeping a list 11 and keeping phone numbers so they can call back when we get 12 the stuff. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. We'll be happy to give 14 anybody that's interested actual notice when those -- those 15 RFP's are ready. 16 MS. HARGIS: That's what we've been telling them. 17 I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? We'll be adjourned. 19 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 2:51 p.m.) 20 - - - - - - - - - - 21 22 23 24 25 2-22-10 209 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 official reporter for the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 26th day of February, 8 2010. 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-22-10