1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, June 28, 2010 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X June 28, 2010 2 PAGE 3 --- Visitors' Input 5 4 --- Commissioners' Comments 6 5 1.10 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on calling for a road district in a portion of 6 Castle Lake Subdivision and setting a public hearing for same 7 7 1.11 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 8 approving funding for outside counsel for the CREZ transmission line intervention -- 9 1.1 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 10 authorize County Judge to execute contract with Southwest Fabricators for construction of Hill 11 Country Youth Exhibit Center Rodeo Arena 12 12 1.4 Consider/discuss, approve advertising for bids on two energy-efficient heat pump/AC units, 13 energy-efficient thermostats, and replacement lighting and occupancy sensors for Kerr County 14 Courthouse & 10 energy-efficient heat pump/AC units for Kerr County Law Enforcement Center 13 15 1.5 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 16 reject bid from Lassen Inc d/b/a Mike Larsen Co. for repairs to Flat Rock and Ingram Lake Dams 17 and authorize rebidding projects 14 18 1.2 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on proposed Resolution or Proclamation in support 19 of Kerrville Area League of Women Voters forum for state candidates on July 5, 2010 15 20 1.3 Presentation by TxDOT of revised concept plan 21 for Center Point Crossing Street Bridge and adjacent county park facility 20 22 1.6 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 23 comments and questions from the "Crossing Street Bridge Group" regarding park improvements and 24 the progression of a new bridge at the Center Point dam 33 25 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) June 28, 2010 2 PAGE 1.7 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 3 find and establish Cummings Lane (as identified in the Midway Center unrecorded plat) by 4 prescriptive easement as a county public road and to accept Cummings Lane as herein identified 5 as a county public road 74 6 1.9 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on subdivision of tract and new well authorization 77 7 1.8 Consider/discuss take appropriate action 8 regarding modification of position schedule within Road & Bridge to include certified 9 mechanic position 95 10 4.1 Pay Bills 99 4.2 Budget Amendments 100 11 4.3 Late Bills 103 4.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 106 12 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee 13 Assignments 107 5.2 Reports from Elected Officials/Department Heads 108 14 --- Adjourned 109 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 On Monday, June 28, 2010, at 9:00 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come to order, please. 8 Let me call to order this meeting of the Kerr County 9 Commissioners Court scheduled and posted -- quiet, please -- 10 scheduled and posted for this time and date, Monday, June the 11 28th, 2010, at 9 a.m. It is that time now. Commissioner 12 Baldwin? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, thank you. If 14 you'll rise, and we're going to have a word of prayer and 15 then the pledge of allegiance. 16 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Please be seated. At 18 this time, if there's any member of the audience that wishes 19 to be heard on any matter that is not a listed agenda item, 20 this is your opportunity to tell us what's on your mind. If 21 you wish to be heard on an agenda item, we'd ask that you 22 fill out a participation form. There are some located at the 23 rear of the room. Notwithstanding that, if we get to an 24 agenda item and you wish to be heard, why, get my attention 25 in some manner, even if you have not filled out a 6-28-10 5 1 participation form, and we'll give you that opportunity. But 2 right now, if there's any member of the audience that wishes 3 to be heard on a matter which is not a listed agenda item, 4 come forward and tell us what's on your mind. Yes, ma'am? 5 Give us your name and address, please, and tell us what you 6 have. 7 MISS SNOW: My name is Danielle Snow, and I reside 8 at 760 Johnson Drive in Kerrville. Honorable Judge Tinley 9 and Commissioners, on behalf the of the Texas 4-H Shooting 10 Sports program, and one of your state shooting sports 11 ambassadors and a member of the 2010 Muzzleloading team, I 12 would like to formally invite you gentlemen to the opening 13 ceremony of the 2010 National Invitational Shoot being hosted 14 here in Kerrville. The opening ceremony is at 7 p.m. 15 tomorrow evening at the Tivy High School gym. This year, we 16 are hosting 640 shooters from 30 states. Those states being 17 represented are the flags being displayed on the courthouse 18 lawn this week. We appreciate your support of all the 19 facilities. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 21 (Applause.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have anyone else, any member 23 of the public or the audience that wishes to be heard on any 24 matter that is not a listed agenda item? Seeing no one else 25 coming forward, we will move on with our agenda. 6-28-10 6 1 Commissioner Baldwin, what do you have for us this morning? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I -- that was an 3 invitation, you know. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: It was. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See? And we like it like 6 that. And I'm writing it down. What time? 7 MISS SNOW: 7:00. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: O'clock? 9 MISS SNOW: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm kidding, you know. Is 11 there any dinner or anything involved in this? (Laughter.) 12 MR. SNOW: Not unless you want to go to the pizza 13 party and meet & greet for 700 teenagers. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll pass. All right. 15 Thank you, though. Judge, I don't have anything. Thank you 16 very much. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, thank you. Commissioner 18 Williams? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nothing, Judge. We've got 20 a big agenda, and I see a lot of people that I had the 21 pleasure of working with for lo these many years, and so 22 we'll move on with the agenda. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I attended the GMA-9 hearing 25 one day last week involving the DFC's of Kerr County. Good 6-28-10 7 1 news is, it appears that we're making some progress with that 2 group, and their new modeling and runs they've got from Water 3 Development Board are better than I've ever seen in the past, 4 for the Trinity anyway. Even though they still are talking 5 about going back to the original DFC for the Edwards-Trinity, 6 the verbiage implied that they're not going to do that, which 7 was -- I don't know why they have it still listed that they 8 do. Only frustrating thing a little bit was -- to me, is 9 that they are planning to put this on a fast track and vote 10 on it all -- I believe it's our second meeting in July. 11 It'll be that morning, when I certainly can't attend, and 12 it's just a difficult time. But, anyway, so be it. They're 13 going to vote on it, and if we don't like it, we can appeal 14 again. Hopefully that won't happen. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's it. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Oehler? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Nothing, Judge. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Need more rain. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: With any degree of luck, we'll get 22 some rain coming our way hopefully this week. Let's go to 23 Item 10 on the agenda, if we might, firstly, to consider, 24 discuss, take appropriate action on calling for a road 25 district in a portion of Castle Lake Subdivision and setting 6-28-10 8 1 a public hearing for the same. Commissioner Letz? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I visited with some of 3 the people out there in Castle Lake Subdivision, and it's a 4 small portion of the subdivision, and they do want to 5 proceed. They think that they have -- the majority of the 6 people want the road district. I'll hand out a -- pass it 7 around. The outline in the darker pen is the boundary. The 8 number of lots, there are homes pretty much on every lot. 9 The value is about almost 1.5 million on last year's tax 10 rolls. So, Mr. Odom has gone out there, he's done just a 11 rough look; it's probably around $250,000 or so to do -- put 12 roads up to county standards, and in which case we'll accept 13 them. So, I do want to proceed, and would set a public 14 hearing on this road district. I'll make a motion to do so 15 at our -- what's the meeting schedule? It'll be 30 days. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 12th? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably have to be our first 18 meeting in August. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Going to be the 9th of August, it 21 appears. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: August 9th at 10 o'clock. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are we just talking 24 about -- are they just talking about the Snake Road and 25 Oilwell? 6-28-10 9 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, it'll just be those two 2 roads, and it's actually not all of Oilwell. They want to 3 only do part of it. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'd like to second 5 that emotion, and with a question. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Question 7 or discussion? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner, the public 9 hearing, is that -- what is that going to accomplish? I 10 mean, I know it's required, but what -- do they give us voice 11 that they want to go forward? Or -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think if we hear opposition 13 to it, I would probably be inclined not to go forward with 14 it. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see, okay. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or substantial opposition, not 17 just one person. That doesn't necessarily mean -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So there's some stops along 19 the way. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is to make sure they want 21 to proceed. This is the first step. The next -- you know, 22 if they're not pretty much unanimous in support of this, I 23 will not recommend proceeding, because the cost is -- you 24 know, we have to balance all of that, and pre-justice 25 clearance, a lot of things with our election department 6-28-10 10 1 office. So, this is just to make sure that they're really 2 serious about wanting to proceed. If they are, then we'll 3 get to the point of calculating all of the other work, 4 preclearance with the Justice Department, calculating the 5 actual amount of the bonds, what they would be, things of 6 that nature, getting some more formal quotes on the road 7 work. Just -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then the -- and then the 9 election, the people vote whether they want to do the -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- taxing or not, and 12 then -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The actual -- yeah, the actual 14 election is whether they want to issue bonds, levy a tax on 15 themselves. That will be at the November standard election. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: At standard election, okay. 17 That was my question. 18 MS. BOLIN: Should be the last meeting in July. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can we -- do we need a 30-day 20 period on it? 21 MS. BOLIN: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can't make 30 days by then. 23 MS. BOLIN: But I think in August is too late. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As I understood it is that the 25 -- we needed 90 days for the preclearance, up to 90 days. 6-28-10 11 1 You know, I mean, if we submit it and they don't get it back 2 to us in time, we just can't do it. And that -- we need 30 3 days notice, so it's got to be 30 days. We can't -- it's got 4 to be August 9th. I think August 4th was the -- is the 5 90-day period for when you need to submit for a 6 pre-justice -- for clearance from the Justice Department. 7 And if we don't have that -- if we submit it and they don't 8 get it back to us, then we just can't proceed. 9 MS. BOLIN: Let me check on it. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a motion and a second. Any 12 further question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 13 signify by raising your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carries. Let's go to 18 Item 11; consider, discuss, take appropriate action on 19 approving funding for outside counsel for the CREZ 20 transmission line intervention. Commissioner Letz? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My understanding is that we can 22 pull this at this time until we get further down the road, 23 based on the conversation I had with the Judge and County 24 Attorney. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anyone have any desire to 6-28-10 12 1 pursue anything more with that? Let's go back to Item 1, to 2 consider, discuss, take appropriate action to authorize 3 County Judge to execute contract with Southwest Fabricators 4 for construction of the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center 5 rodeo arena. Commissioner Oehler? 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I'll turn it over to 7 the architect. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We've been through all this, 10 and -- 11 MR. LEWIS: Morning, Judge, Commissioners. I'm 12 here today to present the original and file copy of a 13 contract with Southwest Fabricators and County Court of Kerr 14 County, Texas for the construction of a rodeo arena and 15 announcer's stand on the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center 16 property. This has been reviewed by the County Attorney and 17 with us, and we have made some minor edits, or had the 18 submitter -- the contractor make some minor edits to it, and 19 I believe it has his approval. So, I'm here just to present 20 it to you. It has all the attachments, the original copy, 21 and all the documents that support that, and with our 22 recommendation for approval. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move for approval. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 6-28-10 13 1 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 2 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 7 Item 4; to consider, discuss, and approve advertising for 8 bids on two energy-efficient heat pump/AC units, 9 energy-efficient thermostats, and replacement lighting and 10 occupancy sensors for Kerr County Courthouse, and 10 11 energy-efficient heat pump/AC units for the Kerr County Law 12 Enforcement Center, funding to be provided by the American 13 Reinvestment Recovery Act funds allotted to Kerr County under 14 the SECO Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grant, with 15 bids to be received by 4:30 p.m. on Friday, July the 9th, 16 2010, for bids to be awarded at the Commissioners Court 17 meeting on July the 12th, 2010. Pretty self-explanatory, I 18 think. 19 MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Can't beat that one up any 23 more. Those bids need to be received in the County Clerk's 24 office, would be the only -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that will be on the bid -- on 6-28-10 14 1 the bid form. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We'll make sure. Some 3 people -- we've had that problem in the past, where they turn 4 them in the wrong place. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and second for 10 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion on the 11 motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your 12 right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Thank you, 17 Mr. Bollier. 18 MR. BOLLIER: Thank you, sir. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 5, to consider, discuss, take 20 appropriate action to reject bid from Lassen, Inc., d/b/a 21 Mike Larsen Company, for repairs to Flat Rock and Ingram Lake 22 Dams and authorize rebidding of the projects. Commissioner 23 Williams? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. This is 25 to reject the bid that was submitted to us last Commissioners 6-28-10 15 1 Court meeting for the repairs for Flat Rock Lake Dam and 2 Ingram Dam, based on the fact that the bids exceeded 3 considerably more than we'd allocated for the repairs of 4 those two dams. And I'd like to reject the bid of this 5 particular bidder and authorize rebidding of the project, and 6 see where that takes us. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 9 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion on that 10 motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your 11 right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 16 Item 8, if we might; consider, discuss, take appropriate 17 action regarding a modification of the position schedule 18 within Road and Bridge to include certified mechanic 19 position. Ms. Hyde? 20 MS. HARGIS: She left to go get something. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we'll return to that item. 22 Well, it's right knocking on the door at 9:15, so we'll go 23 with Item 2; consider, discuss, take appropriate action on 24 proposed resolution or proclamation in support of the 25 Kerrville Area League of Women Voters forum for the state 6-28-10 16 1 candidates on July the 5th, 2010. Good morning. 2 MS. ROBINSON: Good morning. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: If you'll give us your name and 4 address, please? 5 MS. ROBINSON: Excuse me. Thank you, Judge Tinley. 6 My name is Donna Snow Robinson, and I am the president of the 7 Kerrville Area League of Women Voters. And I appreciate the 8 opportunity to present the Commission with details of our 9 upcoming candidates forum on July 5th at the Cailloux Theater 10 at 910 Main Street. For your information, our mission 11 statement, the League of Women Voters, reads, "The League of 12 Women Voters, a nonpartisan political organization, 13 encourages the informed and active participation of citizens 14 in government, works to increase understanding of major 15 public policy issues, and influences public policy through 16 education and advocacy." And that is the purpose of our 17 forum on July 5th. We've gotten a lot of comments and 18 good -- good accolades for our recent forums that we have 19 held for local elections, so we thought we would just step 20 forward and see if we could get a forum here in Kerrville for 21 the state candidates for governor, lieutenant governor, and 22 Attorney General. 23 We are presenting this in partnership with KVHC TV 24 and with the generous underwriting support of the Floyd A. 25 and Kathleen C. Cailloux Foundation. The forum will be 6-28-10 17 1 telecast live by KVHC and made available to radio and 2 television stations nationwide -- statewide. And all 3 candidates who are on the ballot as of June 23rd have been 4 invited to participate in this forum. There will not be a 5 debate. This is in keeping with our nonpartisan commitment 6 to voter education. We don't support or accept support from 7 any political party or candidate, so this won't be a debate, 8 but an opportunity for candidates to respond to citizens' 9 input. Each candidate may give an opening statement, and 10 then there will be an opportunity, of course, to respond to 11 questions. All questions will come from the League, the 12 press, and the public. 13 Interested citizens may send questions to 14 "july5forum@kvhc.com." Written questions for the live 15 audience my be submitted in the lobby of the theater until 16 6:55 p.m. Questions must be directed to all candidates for a 17 particular office. The questions will be screened by a panel 18 of League members for readability and appropriateness; that 19 is, no slanted questions or those directed to only one 20 candidate. Timekeepers will monitor responses to insure all 21 candidates have a fair opportunity to answer questions. Each 22 candidate will have time for a response, and if they wish, a 23 brief second response to each question. They will also have 24 an opportunity to make a closing statement at the end of 25 their segment of the forum. Today we're asking for a 6-28-10 18 1 statement of support from our county commission. As our 2 elected representatives, we know that your support would 3 carry considerable influence toward our goal of providing a 4 full slate of candidate participation on July 5th. I thank 5 you for your time today and for your ongoing support of our 6 nonpartisan efforts toward an informed electorate. I'd be 7 glad to answer any questions. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Donna, you indicated that 9 statewide candidates have been invited? 10 MS. ROBINSON: They've been invited. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you have any idea who 12 has confirmed their appearance? 13 MS. ROBINSON: Yes, I do. As of now, we have Mayor 14 Bill White; Katherine Glass, Libertarian, who are running for 15 governor. The Republican candidate for governor, Rick Perry, 16 has said, "Thank you for the request. Unfortunately, Bill 17 White has refused to release his tax returns for his years of 18 public service, and the governor is waiting to debate him and 19 participate in all forums once he comes clean with Texas 20 taxpayers." In the race for lieutenant governor, Linda 21 Chavez-Thompson at first said she'd be delighted to be here, 22 and then found she had to be out of state, and so she has 23 sent her regrets. We have had no responses from the 24 Libertarian candidate, Scott Jameson, or from the Republican 25 candidate, David Dewhurst at this time, so there may be no 6-28-10 19 1 debate in the race for lieutenant governor. And the race for 2 Attorney General, Barbara Ann Radnofsky has said yes, and Jon 3 Roland, the Libertarian, has said yes. We had no response as 4 of yesterday from Greg Abbott, the Republican candidate. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: And you're seeking a resolution of 7 support for your endeavor? 8 MS. ROBINSON: Exactly. And full participation by 9 all candidates. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: And we've been presented with a 11 resolution of support by the Court, which you're asking us to 12 adopt; is that correct? 13 MS. ROBINSON: That's correct. Thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Do I hear a motion by any 15 member of the Court for adoption of the resolution? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Should we read it into the 17 record? Court hasn't seen it, I don't think. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I haven't seen it. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I apologize. Resolution of Kerr 20 County Commissioners Court expressing support of the 21 Kerrville area League of Women Voters' candidates forum on 22 July 5, 2010. "Whereas, it is appropriate to recognize the 23 period immediately after Independence Day as the official 24 opening of the campaign season; and whereas, the Kerrville 25 area League of Women Voters is sponsoring a candidates forum 6-28-10 20 1 on July 5, 2010, in partnership with KVHC TV, who will 2 provide statewide access to the forum via radio or 3 television; and whereas, all state candidates for governor, 4 lieutenant governor, and Attorney General have been invited 5 to participate. Now, therefore, be it resolved that the Kerr 6 County Commissioners Court commends the Kerrville Area League 7 of Women Voters for its efforts to inform the voting public 8 on issues of importance that face the state of Texas by 9 inviting statewide candidates for office to Kerr County to 10 kick off the 2010 campaign season, and express our hopes that 11 all invited candidates for governor, lieutenant governor, and 12 Attorney General to participate." 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 approval of the resolution. Question or discussion? All in 17 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's move 22 to Item 3 on the agenda, a 9:15 timed item also. It is a bit 23 past that time now. That is a presentation by TexDOT of the 24 revised concept plan for the Center Point Crossing Street 25 Bridge and adjacent county park facility. Commissioner 6-28-10 21 1 Williams? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. When 3 last we met as a community in Center Point -- I believe it 4 was March 23 -- Mr. Coward accompanied me, and he presented a 5 plan -- TexDOT plan for the revitalization or replacement of 6 the Crossing Street Bridge. Needless to say, it was not very 7 well received, and I will confess that it was a bit jarring 8 to the senses in terms of its relationship to the scene of 9 the dam and the water and the park and et cetera, et cetera. 10 We heard comments from all the people attending, which looked 11 surprisingly like the group that's right here this morning. 12 (Laughter.) And made copious notes about that, and had the 13 opportunity to study those notes and review them, and take 14 into consideration the comments of the people who were in 15 attendance. Subsequent to that, Judge Tinley and I met with 16 TexDOT officials, the district engineer from San Antonio and 17 Mr. Coward, the area engineer, and we talked about some 18 options, and perhaps a new concept that might not be so 19 jarring to the senses, and other options that may be or could 20 be available to Kerr County, if any. 21 Subsequent to that -- well, at that particular 22 meeting, in reviewing these things, Mr. Coward also offered 23 to bring into the mix a design -- parks design expert, who 24 was a TexDOT person, to assist in taking a look at the park 25 to determine whether or not there was anything that we could 6-28-10 22 1 be doing, or there are things we can do, how we might develop 2 a plan for improving that park over the short and the long 3 term. He also indicated to us that they would take another 4 look at, and see if there was another way to devise a 5 crossing underneath the dam that might be more acceptable in 6 terms of its concept. So, Mr. Coward's here today to present 7 that to you; it'll be on the big screen up there. And then 8 subsequent to that, I'm sure Judge Tinley will call Item 6 9 and we'll hear the comments of the public with respect to 10 this particular iteration of this plan. We're going to be 11 guided by what you want; we're not going to be guided by what 12 I want, 'cause what I want is insignificant, so we want to 13 hear from you and see where we are in terms of this. If 14 we're not doing a bridge, then we'll turn our attention to 15 the park. Mr. Coward? 16 MR. COWARD: Bear with me for just a second while I 17 get all this over here without yanking it out of the wall. 18 I'm probably the only one in here tall enough to reach up and 19 turn this on. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's nice that you're tall, 21 sir. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Everybody else has to have a 23 chair. 24 MR. COWARD: Good morning, Judge, and good morning, 25 Commissioners. And I do recognize most of the faces out here 6-28-10 23 1 also. My name is Mike Coward; I'm area engineer for TexDOT 2 here in this local area, and I'm going to kind of just -- 3 Commissioner Williams has seen part of this presentation, but 4 y'all have not had the benefit. We're going to kind of 5 rehash a little bit of the history on how we got to where we 6 are and then where we might go, and then once again -- I'm 7 like the Commissioner; I'll just sit back and listen. So, 8 we're working on plans to replace the Crossing Street Bridge. 9 Now, we're actually working on several bridges. We're 10 working on a couple in Commissioner Oehler's precinct; we're 11 working on Hoot Owl Hollow and the bridge to Camp Arrowhead. 12 We're working on a couple up in Commissioner Letz', and then 13 these also. Now, we're doing all this via an agreement with 14 Kerr County. I think we bundled up, I think, five bridges, 15 and actually, this will -- ultimately, this agreement will 16 lead to the replacement and upgrade of the bridge at Cade 17 Loop, because the County's going to -- in lieu of giving us 18 the money, we're going to work together to upgrade Cade Loop. 19 The reason we're here is that we inspect bridges 20 every two years. In TexDOT's world, a bridge is anything 21 that's got a span longer than 20 feet. Doesn't matter; you 22 can -- so if you have two 24-inch pipes across the Guadalupe 23 River, that's not a bridge in our world, even though it looks 24 like a bridge to everybody else. But if it's longer than 20 25 feet, it's a bridge, and we go out and inspect those every 6-28-10 24 1 two years, or more often if we see things that start worrying 2 us. And we go out and inspect them. We rate them on lots of 3 things, such as if they have the ability to carry legal 4 loads, how many times they flood, how wide they are. Do they 5 have railings and things that are considered to be 6 safety-type standards? Do they have erosion that could lead 7 to maintenance problems in the long-term? How they're 8 aligned horizontally and vertically, and all those type of 9 factors. We put all those factors into basically a 10 spreadsheet for all the bridges statewide that we do, and we 11 use those rankings to develop a statewide priority-based 12 replacement and rehab program. 13 Crossing Street Bridge was selected mostly because 14 of its narrow width; it's a 19-foot tube. It has a 15 relatively high traffic count, 680 cars a day, which is a 16 relatively high traffic count for a county -- off-system 17 county road bridge. It's offline for transportation 18 frequently. We don't know how big a deal that is with 19 that -- with the 480 bridge just right downstream. It 20 doesn't have any railing or safety slopes. In summary, the 21 bridge is old and narrow and does not meet current design 22 standards. So, based upon this selection, TexDOT and Kerr 23 County entered into an agreement for the replacement of that 24 bridge. So, there's some more facts. The existing bridge, 25 the bridge itself, is 19 foot wide, 61 feet long. It was 6-28-10 25 1 built around 1925. I know there's been some question about 2 that, about that figure. That's what our records show, and 3 it's five spans or better on some little metal beams that go 4 in between there with a deck poured up on top, and 680 cars a 5 day. And there's a picture of it. 6 So, what have we done so far? We went out; we did 7 a survey on the ground. We've done some cores for our 8 foundation designs. We've done some preliminary designs. 9 We're about 20 percent complete, depending on -- I guess, you 10 know, either 20 percent or zero percent complete, depending 11 on which way we go. And then we had a public workshop, and 12 based upon that workshop, we've done some substantial 13 modifications to our design. So, what did we hear at the 14 public workshop? They did not like the initial design, not 15 even a little bit. (Laughter.) Most of the comments were 16 they wanted to preserve or improve access to the park. They 17 want to preserve the view of the dam, especially as you drive 18 over 480 and can look that way or look up there. Again, they 19 wanted to improve the park and lake, and they did not like 20 the initial design. So, back to the computer. We totally 21 redesigned the bridge, then we went back -- as Commissioner 22 Williams stated, we went back and were working with our 23 TexDOT landscape architect on some -- some concept plans on 24 what maybe could be done to the park to enhance it. 25 So, a couple questions come up. Why not just fix 6-28-10 26 1 the old bridge? If it's as bad as you say it is, why don't 2 we just fix the old one? Probably much like trying to, you 3 know, decide whether you want to remodel an old house or 4 build one; I mean, there's no detailed records of what's 5 there. We don't know what kind of steel's there. We don't 6 have any records on the concrete, so there's not much there 7 to save. It doesn't meet current design standards. There's 8 not much left there to save once you start trying to remodel 9 it, for lack of a better word. And as the truck fleet 10 continues to get heavier, it will probably lead to that 11 bridge being a load zone in the future. So, why not do 12 nothing? I mean, you know, the bridge has been identified by 13 TexDOT engineers as being deficient. Bridges have a finite 14 life, like all of us. I mean, you know, this bridge is 85 15 years old, and nothing lasts forever, including bridges. I 16 mean, there's wear and tear, things rust, concrete gets old, 17 things get cracked. All kinds of things happen. 18 Y'all have an opportunity to upgrade this bridge, 19 basically at no cost to Kerr County under this program. And 20 then, you know, in my world anyway, we consider it to be a 21 public safety issue. I mean, it has no rail. So this is a 22 picture of what we propose to build there today. So, the 23 bridge that we originally planned -- and I didn't do any 24 concept plans of that, but the bridge that we had originally 25 planned would have looked much more like Indian Creek Bridge, 6-28-10 27 1 if y'all know what Indian Creek Bridge looks like. So it 2 would have been your plain-jane TexDOT bridge. It would have 3 spanned the river, probably would have changed water surface 4 elevation upstream. It would have the railings on it, which 5 would have compromised the access there to the park, and so 6 this is a total redesign. So, we would be looking at 7 basically replacing what's there today with something very 8 similar, about the same number of boxes that it has today, 9 just with modern boxes that are for loading. There would be 10 some pipe runners on the -- over those pipes so cars could 11 not go in there. We may even modify this a little bit and 12 try to make it wider on one of the shoulders with a curb 13 where we could facilitate maybe a little bit better 14 pedestrian access across the bridge. 15 There's another view of the proposed bridge, kind 16 of looking at it from the downstream side. So, again, this 17 is an artist's -- it's the same guy that's working on y'all's 18 park, did this for us. So, estimated construction cost, 19 about $550,000. And that's pretty rough right now. I mean, 20 we'll do some more work on it, depending on how today's 21 meeting turns out. We're trying to get the plans 22 shovel-ready. That's a big term these days, you know, 23 statewide, federal-wide. I mean, money is not always there, 24 but we know if we don't have plans ready, we'll never get 25 anything done, and if you have plans ready, a lot of good 6-28-10 28 1 things happen sometimes. And then we're working -- 2 continuing to work with the County right now on the master 3 concept for the park, and I suspect that we will do that no 4 matter which way this project turns. 5 There's a picture of the concept plan. I mean, 6 it's kind of being done by a guy that does this or knows a 7 lot about it, and so he's looking at all the various uses, 8 and we'll get more and more detailed as we go on. I think 9 we're -- we're working on some -- again, maybe this is 10 something that the County could look at and decide how they 11 might want to phase something in. So, what happens if the 12 County decides not to proceed? The agreement calls for the 13 County to reimburse TexDOT for all expenses incurred if y'all 14 decide not to proceed. Right now, it's about $85,000. 15 That's that survey, the engineering that's been done, the 16 cores, and -- then the bridge will not be eligible for this 17 program for 10 years if y'all decide not to proceed. That 18 concludes my presentation. I'd be glad to take any comments 19 or questions. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Coward, a few years ago, we had 21 a tragic loss of life at another bridge in that same area 22 because of the ability for debris, the buildup underneath the 23 bridge. The person got caught going underneath there and got 24 trapped. This -- the existing bridge down there, does it 25 have that same possibility for that type of thing to happen? 6-28-10 29 1 MR. COWARD: Yeah. And Leonard could probably tell 2 us more about how much it actually happens, but certainly the 3 possibility is there. It's open boxes that can easily trap 4 debris. That's actually what happened on the Government 5 Crossing Bridge, is that it was a -- a wet time, and there 6 was actually debris and logs stuck under the bridge. There 7 was enough water going over the top that we could not get 8 down and clean them up, and there was a tuber that was 9 actually stuck and drowned in the boxes. And so this is a 10 very similar design to what Government Crossing was before we 11 replaced it. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: The new design that you're 13 proposing, would it have safeguards in place to prevent 14 something like that? 15 MR. COWARD: Yes, sir. We would -- much like we 16 did on Government Crossing, we built a -- a grate system that 17 would actually keep tubers from going in. Something like 18 that does require a little bit more maintenance, but, you 19 know, all these things require more maintenance. You know, 20 much like having antilock brakes on your car, every now and 21 then those things go out, and they're expensive, but they 22 save -- you know, they save many, many lives every year. And 23 so as we upgrade these things, we bring them up to modern 24 standards. To give you a direct answer, I mean, this bridge 25 would be designed where -- much like y'all have on Bear Creek 6-28-10 30 1 and some of the other ones, to keep tubers and canoers and 2 swimmers from being able to be trapped in the boxes. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: You mentioned the possibility that, 4 even though this design has been significantly reworked, 5 there could be further reworking to provide better pedestrian 6 or wider pedestrian -- 7 MR. COWARD: Absolutely. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: -- traffic availability on the 9 bridge? 10 MR. COWARD: Absolutely. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How much higher is this one 13 than the old one? 14 MR. COWARD: This one will be almost exactly the 15 same heighth. It won't even add that much more opening. One 16 of the comments was -- was we wanted to keep the bridge 17 that's there. This is basically a little bit of a dam, and 18 it backs -- backs some water up. We want to try to keep that 19 water surface elevation about the same as it is between the 20 dam and the crossing, so this one, we will not get any 21 benefit for flooding, but again, you have the 480 bridge 22 right downstream, and so we feel like that's a trade we can 23 make. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How wide's the new one? 25 MR. COWARD: The new one would ultimately depend on 6-28-10 31 1 how we decide to handle the sidewalks, but typically the 2 minimum width on these will be 28 feet wide, so that would be 3 11-foot lanes and 4-foot shoulders. We could go back and 4 maybe make one side wider, again, trying to improve it where 5 you could actually have pedestrians and cars could share this 6 bridge. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Bicycles too, maybe. 8 MR. COWARD: Bicycles too, yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't see any railings in 10 that. Are there any railings there? 11 MR. COWARD: There are no railings planned. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Wow. How'd you get away with 13 that? 14 MR. COWARD: Well, by those slopes. You've got to 15 have one or the other. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, one of the options could 18 be is that you shut it down to automobile traffic and use it 19 for foot traffic only? 20 MR. COWARD: Well, I mean, I guess that's an 21 option. I'm not sure we'd want to spend the kind of money 22 we're spending if we weren't going to allow cars to use it. 23 I mean, you could -- certainly, if you shut the bridge down, 24 that can be done there, shut it down today. I mean, you 25 would -- we wouldn't build a new bridge. I guess you could 6-28-10 32 1 just close that to -- make it a pedestrian crossing, much 2 like we did -- we're going to do on the bridge in the 3 roadside park, and -- 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Schumacher. 5 MR. COWARD: Schumacher. We're going to turn that 6 into a pedestrian bridge only. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Our options, then, are to do nothing 9 and write you a check for what you've got in it to this 10 point, -- 11 MR. COWARD: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to go forward with some sort of a 13 plan that we can try and cobble together to make the most 14 folks happy that are involved in the process, on TexDOT's 15 nickel, or in addition to doing nothing and writing you a 16 check, if we need to have that bridge modified or improved 17 down the road within the next 10 years, it's on our nickel 18 completely. 19 MR. COWARD: Yes, sir. That's the rules that are 20 in place. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Beyond the 10 years, it would be 22 eligible, but we don't know whether it would be funded. 23 Again, on your nickel. 24 MR. COWARD: Yes, sir. I mean -- and, you know, 25 and it's hard to know what funding's going to look like next 6-28-10 33 1 year or next month, so, you know, I wouldn't hazard a guess 2 on what funding's going to be like in 10 years. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let me go ahead, if I might, 4 and call Item 6. It is past 9:30. Consider, discuss, take 5 appropriate action on comments and questions from the 6 Crossing Street Bridge Group regarding park improvements and 7 the progression of a new bridge at the Center Point dam. 8 We've got a number of participation forms that have been 9 filed, and I want to give everybody an opportunity to be 10 heard. The admonition I would make is that, to the extent 11 the comments which you were otherwise intending to make, if 12 they've already been made by another speaker, that we not 13 have continual repetitiveness so that this process can move 14 along. Again, as I indicated, if you've got something to add 15 to the discussion, we want that to be part of the record that 16 is being made today. But if the members of the Court don't 17 have any further questions for Mr. Coward at this time -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Only one. Mike, why don't 19 you put up the picture of the new bridge that's proposed, 20 what you have, instead of just looking at the dam and the 21 lake, so that everybody can see what it looks like. Thank 22 you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. The first person to have 24 filed a participation form is Mr. Thomas Collins, showing an 25 address of 261 Red Bird Loop in Center Point. 6-28-10 34 1 MR. COLLINS: Can I move the -- just drop the 2 screen here like that? Oops, I turned it off. 3 MR. COWARD: I'll move it out of your way. 4 MR. COLLINS: Morning, Judge, Commissioners. 5 Mr. Coward stole a lot of my thunder that I was going to talk 6 about, 'cause I had planned to discuss a lot of the items 7 that he had already raised there, so I'll limit mine to some 8 of the points here that are still left on my notes here. We 9 had this long discussion -- meeting that Mr. Coward and 10 Commissioner Williams held, and he said there was around 30 11 of us there present at that meeting. He gave us the 12 statistics again in this meeting here. The citizens 13 basically, as a whole, I believe, were -- were against the 14 building of this bridge, or any bridge there. We know that 15 there's already this state highway bridge 100 yards 16 downstream from us there, and in our opinion, this bridge 17 really goes nowhere. It's our own little bridge to nowhere. 18 And -- but it's a historic bridge. And for most -- for all 19 of us, it's a bridge that is an integral part of the park 20 there, so they kind of go together. And it was our strong 21 feeling that to take the old bridge away took something away 22 from the park itself. 23 As you know, there is no Guadalupe River access in 24 east Kerr County other than this site and the park today. 25 The -- the Brinks Crossing upstream has, of course, been 6-28-10 35 1 fenced off totally, so there's no getting to it other than 2 right in the middle of the creek itself. The -- the 3 Government Crossing down below has basically been lost to us 4 as citizens to access it. Those of us that had an 5 opportunity to go and see it since it's been built -- that 6 bridge has been built, and it now has very high embankment, 7 has large rocks that have been laid all along both sides of 8 the embankment, covered in heavy screen. And trying to 9 access the river there is almost impossible, if not dangerous 10 for anybody on foot. I tried to do it myself the other day, 11 just to see how difficult it was. And in the past, as you 12 know, you could pull off the side of the road, get out, and 13 families were always in the river there. They're no longer 14 there. 15 It was also pointed out in that meeting that the 16 volunteer fire department, that was one of the their access 17 points, the Government Crossing, to get water during fires. 18 Today, you know, our only access point today is the low-water 19 bridge or the Crossing Street Bridge in Center Point to get 20 water for the fire -- fire departments. If you go to that 21 point there, go to our bridge there, that low-water crossing 22 bridge, there's always families on both sides of the river, 23 swimming, and in the -- above in the dam water also. People 24 park on one side or the other. We need to be able to park on 25 both sides, 'cause people like to get out and walk across the 6-28-10 36 1 bridge, and maybe get on one side of the water and then come 2 across the bridge to the other. So, we always constantly 3 have people walking back and forth, and we have traffic going 4 back and forth. 5 I hear that it's a lot of traffic going there. A 6 lot of it, I think, is people just driving to see the water 7 coming over the dam, 'cause it is a historic and it's a very 8 beautiful spot, and it's a shortcut. People, another quarter 9 of a mile, or not even that much, out of the way there, a few 10 hundred yards down and around,, can still access the -- any 11 of the area there without any trouble. I very seldom see any 12 large vehicles using this. If we increase the size of it, 13 make it wider and bigger, we'll encourage large trucks, and 14 as we make the bridge more easily accessible and speed up the 15 traffic of vehicles wanting to go across that -- right now, 16 people kind of alternate going across it in vehicles, so 17 there -- there's a courtesy. That's typical hill country 18 courtesy that is applied. People walking on the bridge are 19 given plenty of room. And so it's, again, important that we 20 think about how this old bridge is an integral part. It's a 21 simple system. As I've written in my notes, it's a place 22 where people kind of are laid-back and want to just enjoy the 23 water and enjoy their time there. 24 Commissioner Williams did tell us at the meeting 25 that they'd go back and review it. I see that they've at 6-28-10 37 1 least done some work there to try to incorporate our ideas. 2 Again, though, we're very concerned about replacing the 3 bridge, and at the same time, what can we do to enhance that 4 park facility? This -- if the original bridge was built as 5 originally planned, it would certainly limit access to the 6 water from the bridge because of these rocks and wire 7 screening, plus vehicles unable to park on either side of it 8 to get to the -- get to it. Now, obviously, they don't park 9 along the river on the park side. They use the park side 10 there and then walk down the road and walk across the bridge; 11 a lot of people do. Other people park on the gravel on 12 the -- on the low water side of the -- and access the river 13 below. There's always going to be access to the dam above, 14 but it's the water below that's important to a lot of folks, 15 'cause if you go down there any time, there's always small 16 children with their families out and just moving water there. 17 And, again, that's our only access point left for moving 18 water in the county. 19 A wider bridge, as I mentioned, could mean more 20 traffic, faster traffic, big trucks start taking -- using 21 that as an opportunity. Pedestrians who park on either side 22 and try to use the bridge will then possibly be endangered. 23 We need to make sure that the volunteer fire department has 24 good access. If we do go along with any of these future 25 plans, we need to make sure that they have good access and 6-28-10 38 1 parking available for them to get in. And if we build a new 2 bridge, we need to consider the fact that this -- the park 3 will lose its hill country appearance, where we've lost it in 4 a lot of other places in the county. So, I guess the 5 questions to you from us is, is this bridge replacement or 6 modification still on? And I hear that you're still debating 7 it. And I guess, and if so, why? We hear it's -- there's 8 some structural -- potential structural issues. I don't know 9 if I've heard any, other than it doesn't meet the state 10 criteria. And the state criteria obviously is not met. But 11 this bridge has been there a fair amount of time, 80 possible 12 years -- or years or plus, and hasn't shown anything, other 13 than the nice thing about it, when there's big floods, 14 because it is so low, there's very little debris gets stuck 15 there, other than bed springs and -- and spare tires, which I 16 help pull out every year when we do the river cleanup. 17 So, I guess our recommendation is stop the building 18 of this bridge, if it's still planned. If there's safety 19 concerns, then block the bridge, make it a pedestrian only. 20 Citizen -- mainly citizens would like to see that regardless. 21 We'd like to leave our bridge as it is. Any funds to be made 22 available ought to be used to help us improve Lions Park. We 23 really need a good park like -- like the one in Louise Hays, 24 where we have more than just a picnic table or two or three, 25 and a beat-up gravel area that you almost have to have a 6-28-10 39 1 four-wheel vehicle to drive through today. The river below 2 the dam needs to be cleaned out some. There's some concrete 3 stuff that has piled up there and gravel, but other than 4 that, the -- kind of the bottom line is, if any bridge 5 replacement or enhancement is not just -- we feel like this 6 is not justified or needed, and it will detract from the park 7 beauty. I thank you, Judge. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Anyone have any questions? 9 MR. COLLINS: I have some pictures also that 10 show -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do have a question. 12 MR. COLLINS: I'll give them to you, if y'all would 13 like to pass these around. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do have a question for 15 you. 16 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You said that we're still 18 deliberating or still debating whether -- what we want to do. 19 Actually, this is the first conversation some of us have even 20 had about this thing. 21 MR. COLLINS: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But -- and you followed that 23 up with, "and I don't know why." I would -- you know, it's 24 pretty simple. If, you know, we build a new bridge there, 25 it's because of safety. Safety factors is the first and 6-28-10 40 1 foremost reason. But my question is, why not? I mean, what 2 is -- I still haven't heard the reason why you don't want to 3 build one there. I mean, it's not like they're talking about 4 a giant bridge that goes up above and all that. I mean, I -- 5 MR. COLLINS: Well, the original bridge -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not getting smart with 7 you. I really don't understand. 8 MR. COLLINS: Well, the original bridge 9 construction we were given also was going to be 2 to 3 foot 10 higher than the current one. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that's off the table, sir. 12 This is what we're looking at now. 13 MR. COLLINS: Right. But that's the first time 14 we've seen this also. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. Okay. 16 MR. COLLINS: So we're -- we're on the same page 17 you are right now. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. All right. 19 MR. COLLINS: But also, from a safety aspect, if 20 there's a historical -- evidence of safety on that bridge, I 21 guess I'd like somebody to tell me about it. Now, obviously, 22 there -- the water flows under it where people possibly could 23 get caught, and as it happened down at -- at the Government 24 Crossing, which I think was a tighter -- a tighter flow area 25 also, not as wide as our bridge there is. And the only 6-28-10 41 1 safety issue, I guess, other than that are vehicles and 2 people on the bridge. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. 4 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kind of a general question. 7 And I -- it's kind of just along what Commissioner Baldwin 8 said. I can understand -- I mean, the first bridge is off 9 the table, and I didn't -- don't recall seeing pictures of 10 it. And I understand; I would probably share everyone's 11 problems with that one. But this bridge looks almost 12 identical to what's there, so we're not changing the park. 13 The only difference -- two differences is, one, it won't be, 14 quote, historic, 'cause it won't be old, and the other 15 difference is it's wider. 16 MR. RICHARD MOSTY: Could I respond to that, 17 Commissioner Letz? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: You'll get an opportunity. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I'm just interested. Is 20 that -- is the historic issue the main issue that we're 21 talking about? 22 MR. COLLINS: I think it's a little bit -- not only 23 the historic, but the way it looks today and the fact that if 24 you do widen it and make it -- make it better, you're going 25 to increase the traffic flow potentially and have more 6-28-10 42 1 vehicles and share that road with people at the same time, 2 and possibly even 18-wheelers now will say, "All right, we 3 can pull our gravel trucks across there too." 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you'd rather -- so you'd 5 rather have it blocked, then? Closed? 6 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Collins? Mr. Collins? 9 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: If -- if we do nothing at this 11 point, and we're required to reimburse TexDOT for -- 12 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the work they've got into it at 14 this point, as you saw, how would you propose that we would 15 replenish those funds in order to be able to do park 16 improvements that you indicated that you're interested in? 17 MR. COLLINS: Well, sir, I don't control the purse 18 strings, and I don't know how all of that is managed there, 19 but I don't have a solution for that, other than that TexDOT 20 and -- and you folks work out an agreement as to how that 21 might be managed. We don't have an agreement. But the 22 $85,000 that was spent was spent before we knew that this 23 project was going on at that -- and so, again, it wasn't 24 necessarily the citizens' problem that was created there. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we still have to spend 85. 6-28-10 43 1 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir, I understand that that 2 doesn't solve this problem. No, I don't... 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Thank you, sir. 4 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: The next person to have filed a 6 participation form was John Mosty. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There is a Mosty in the 8 room. 9 MR. JOHN MOSTY: Yes, sir. There are four or five. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y'all charter buses? 11 MR. JOHN MOSTY: But I'm John Mosty from Center 12 Point, Texas. I would like to just back up a little bit in 13 the concept of what I heard and what I have seen. At the 14 March 23 meeting, there were 65 to 70 people present. I 15 think that there would be a large number even reflected here 16 today were it not working hours. There was no one in that 17 room that was in favor of this bridge. In fact, they said no 18 bridge. If the County is to spend money, put it in the park, 19 not in the bridge. That is what I heard. We all left with 20 the understanding that TexDOT would be asked to put this 21 project on hold, and that a committee would be appointed from 22 the local community to provide input to TexDOT and to the 23 County Commissioners. To my knowledge, that committee was 24 never appointed. We asked that the project be stopped, 25 because we understood finances had already been spent at that 6-28-10 44 1 time, and we wanted no more money spent until we were able to 2 have input on this project. 3 Personally, I would ask you to consider -- if we're 4 talking about safety, I would ask you to consider, has there 5 ever been an accident on this bridge, tubing, through traffic 6 or pedestrians hurt? Let's check public records on that. I 7 would also ask from a sheer theoretical point of view, why 8 would we increase traffic, the speed of that traffic, and 9 increase the size of trucks going through a community park? 10 All of our county parks have road restrictions on them. This 11 bridge should have, if it exists, total restriction about the 12 speed, excess traffic, and trucks that would be mingling with 13 individual people. In this time, when we are all looking at 14 budgets, why are we continuing to spend money on a project 15 the community does not want? Why are we continuing to spend 16 finances on engineering? And we have heard $85,000, and it's 17 only 20 percent planned at this time. What further 18 engineering costs is the county going to incur? Furthermore, 19 it may not be the County's dollar, but it is the state dollar 20 or the federal dollar, and each one of those is taxpayers' 21 dollars. I submit we stop this bridge immediately, get 22 community input, and proceed no further until there is full 23 community input. Thank you. 24 (Applause.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Just a moment. Is there anyone -- 6-28-10 45 1 anyone have any questions? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The next person is Mr. Brian Wright 4 from 190 Daniel Road in Center Point. 5 MR. WRIGHT: I really just had a couple of 6 questions. Has the State actually condemned this bridge? 7 You talked about the criteria, not meeting criteria. Is 8 there a way to retrofit this bridge with grates, as opposed 9 to redoing the whole bridge? And I'm with everybody else; 10 I'd like to see the bridge stay low. But I don't know if you 11 can answer those questions for me or not. It's up to the 12 Commissioners. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're TexDOT. We're 14 commissioners. (Laughter.) 15 MR. COWARD: Right. I'm just looking to make sure 16 that -- I think, I mean, the main issue from TexDOT's point 17 of view is, one, the bridge is narrow, so putting grates on 18 there would not solve the narrow problem. Two is that the 19 bridge is old enough, there's no detailed records, and so it 20 would be much like trying to remodel a house from the 1920's 21 without any existing plans. We don't know -- you know, we 22 don't know what spacing the studs are; we don't know what the 23 quality of the studs are. We don't know what kind of 24 concrete was used in the foundation, so it becomes almost 25 impossible to add onto something that you know nothing about. 6-28-10 46 1 And -- and probably anybody that's done any remodeling, it 2 becomes much more expensive to try to remodel something than 3 it does to build something from scratch, when it's as old as 4 this. 5 MR. WRIGHT: So it would be cheaper just to go 6 ahead -- 7 MR. COWARD: In my mind, yes, sir. 8 MR. WRIGHT: -- and rebuild? 9 MR. COWARD: Just from a financial point of view. 10 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. Well, I guess my question to 11 the Commissioners is, if there is not a load bearing on that 12 bridge, could we put a load-bearing rating on that bridge? 13 And if we do try to figure out some way of stopping access 14 across the bridge, put some gates on either end, that the 15 fire service people could still access the river and be able 16 to get the water that's desperately needed. And that's one 17 of the easiest places to get water in Center Point, I think, 18 as most people know. So, I would not like to see the bridge 19 go away. I can't see any reason for to it get wider. But I 20 sure don't want to waste $85,000 at this point, so if there's 21 some way that it can be retrofitted by TexDOT in any way at a 22 cheaper expense, I think that that would be maybe a good 23 solution. Sounds like safety's the main issue here. The 24 bridge has been here for a long time, and I anticipate it's 25 going to be there for a lot more years. So,, TexDOT really 6-28-10 47 1 hasn't told me why they think a new bridge is needed, other 2 than it doesn't meet the current criteria. They have -- they 3 have said that it doesn't meet that criteria, but they 4 haven't said what the expectation is for that life of that 5 bridge. So, I -- I'll take any questions you guys have. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we -- it could be 7 load-rated. Mr. Coward indicated that that's the case. 8 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If need be. And I'm not 10 sure who makes that decision, based on what criteria, but 11 that could happen. Secondly, if it were to be shut down, and 12 the suggestion has been advanced we put a couple concrete 13 posts in the middle of the road, just shut it down on both 14 sides. I believe it would require a public hearing, because 15 there are people who use it regularly as a means to get from 16 one side of the river to the other. So, if we're going to do 17 something like that, we would have another group just like we 18 have today, and we'd have a public hearing on the pros and 19 cons of that action. 20 MR. WRIGHT: Okay, sounds good. Thank you, 21 gentlemen. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more questions? Thank you, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make kind of a comment to 24 that a little bit about safety. There are two bridges in my 25 precinct that TexDOT has replaced in the last 25 years or so, 6-28-10 48 1 one at Lane Valley and one at Hermann Sons. Both of those -- 2 the Hermann Sons Bridge washed out. And they were all built 3 at the same time, so they're all probably built basically in 4 the same way; they were all in the 20's to early 30's. One 5 of them washed out because it was -- the structure finally 6 just gave way, and it's the same type condition. It was a 7 little bit higher than this, little bit different structure. 8 The Lane Valley bridge, same period. When they went to 9 destroy it or take it out and build the new highway bridge 10 there, they barely touched it and it collapsed. The bridges 11 are -- the older bridges are not very -- you know, they seem 12 to work, but they're -- they're true safety concerns for 13 people driving over them. I mean, I think we leave some of 14 these bridges -- obviously, Commissioner Williams said put 15 some posts in the road. Shutting them down becomes more and 16 more likely because of safety. I mean, they -- you know, we 17 don't want to wait for the first -- for it to break when a 18 car's going over it. We want to it shut down before that. 19 We don't want an injury on it, so that's why we're replacing 20 these. 21 And there's several others in my precinct that are 22 under consideration, and some of them are in a similar 23 situation. We don't -- you know, yes, it's a historical 24 thing, but I have to weigh this in my decision, the safety of 25 it. If the bridges are going to remain open, they've got to 6-28-10 49 1 be fixed, one way or the other. And we have -- I will rely 2 on TexDOT. If they think that the financial way to do it is 3 replacing it, then replace it. The other option is to shut 4 the bridge down. I don't -- it's hard for me to -- from a 5 safety standpoint, to see leaving it open and doing nothing. 6 I think that's almost negligent on my part, and voting -- 7 with the experts telling us this bridge is a safety concern, 8 and the experience that I've seen other bridges built during 9 that same period in eastern Kerr County, they are safety 10 concerns. So, you know, to me that's kind of the option that 11 I'm weighing. That's why -- I just wanted to kind of give 12 the people here as to how I have to decide. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Coward, what -- for bridges 14 built during the middle '20's up through early '30's, say, 15 what does TexDOT consider the reasonable, safe life of a 16 bridge from that period? 17 MR. COWARD: There's probably, you know, any number 18 of answers to that question, Judge, depending on how they 19 were built. I mean, you know, this bridge is not -- I mean, 20 it's not going to fall down tomorrow. It's not unsafe to the 21 extent that it's going to collapse. If it was, you know, 22 then we would recommend to y'all to replace it. May even -- 23 what we're saying is that, you know, it's 85 years old. We 24 see signs of wear underneath there. I believe it's open to, 25 you know, legal loads right now. And, you know, like the 6-28-10 50 1 High Street Bridge in Center Point collapsed when a permitted 2 load -- actually, remember, we replaced that bridge for 3 Kendall County, but, you know, they permitted a load through 4 there, and actually led to the actual -- the ultimate 5 collapse of that bridge. You know, with proper maintenance, 6 I mean, things can last a long time. But, you know, we're 7 replacing many, many bridges that were built in the '20's and 8 '30's. The concrete tended to be -- it was, you know, river 9 gravel. When you get into these things and look at the 10 steel, sometimes it's old truck axles, and it's just whatever 11 they had around. I mean, they were quite frugal and quite 12 innovative in the '20's and '30's. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Steve Galland? Your 14 address is Center Point, sir? 15 MR. GALLAND: Yes, sir, Center Point Estates. I 16 live about two blocks from Government Crossing. And my 17 issue -- I have a couple of issues, actually, 'cause I beg to 18 differ with Commissioner Letz as far as the safety of the 19 bridge. If you take a look at the current bridge, which is 20 brand-new, Government Crossing, I -- I have to say that 21 probably the integrity of that bridge has suffered during the 22 last flood we had, 8 -- 8, 9 June. And the reason for that 23 is because the way it was built, we ended up with an awful 24 lot of debris, et cetera. And I have no idea, but I'm sure 25 it cost TexDOT quite a few dollars -- probably close to 6-28-10 51 1 85,000, by the way -- to clean that up, because it took about 2 three days. And the reason for it was because of the -- the 3 heighth of the bridge. And I'm worried that the one we're 4 discussing right now, the same thing will happen. Fine as 5 far as having a bridge done, but you forget that when the 6 floods come, which I can assure you they will -- I've lived 7 there 20 years, and I hate to tell you the number of times 8 Government Crossing has been covered. But in the past, it 9 all goes over it, but not now. If you take a look at 10 Government Crossing bridge, which is brand-new, there's an 11 awful lot of debris. There's no way you can get down to 12 the -- the river whatsoever. And I'm fearful that the same 13 thing will happen at the one we're discussing now. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There have been questions 15 that have been raised and calls I've had with respect to the 16 debris at Government Crossing, and I have passed that on to 17 Mr. Coward, who's indicated that TexDOT will get around to 18 cleaning that up. 19 MR. GALLAND: Do we have any idea what it cost for 20 this three days that they were there with bulldozers, et 21 cetera, to clean that up? It probably was close to 85,000 22 that you're discussing right now, I'm sure. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, there's one thing about 24 this bridge, though. It has nothing to catch any debris. It 25 has -- it has grating on the upstream side that will force 6-28-10 52 1 the debris to go up and over, so there's nothing to really 2 trap any debris any more in this, being as there are no 3 guardrails. It's no higher than what -- 4 MR. GALLAND: I hope you're right, but whoever 5 designed Government Crossing certainly failed. And, like I 6 say, the safety of that bridge is in jeopardy, I think, 7 because of the debris that was on it. It's a brand new 8 bridge. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We have the same problem up 10 the river with debris with the new bridges there, they have 11 the guardrails on them. Didn't used to have any debris; it 12 went away. But, of course, that's more of the safety design 13 by TexDOT. 14 MR. GALLAND: We hope with the guardrails, it 15 might, but I just wanted to caution you. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This would have a slick 17 finish to where nothing's really going to hang up on it. So, 18 that's just a point, that there's nothing for it to hang on. 19 MR. GALLAND: Yeah, I understand. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. The next person is 21 W.R. "Dub" Lynch, showing an address of 669 F.M. 480, Center 22 Point. 23 MR. LYNCH: I'm Dub Lynch from Center Point, 669 24 F.M. 480, and I only have one point. With all the technology 25 going on today, if we need a new bridge, why can't we build a 6-28-10 53 1 bridge that looks exactly like the one that's there? Doesn't 2 have to be that wide; you know, we can alternate traffic 3 going back and forth, but make it accessible to pedestrians. 4 I don't use it that much to get to the river, but my feelings 5 and what I feel about the bridge probably shouldn't be a 6 barometer for this Court to decide what most of the people in 7 Center Point want. We should be able to make one that looks 8 exactly like the one there, and still make it safe. That's 9 my point. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Lynch, essentially what I heard 11 from Mr. Coward was the levels have been maintained, it's 12 being widened, the safety issue as to the flow has been 13 addressed, with pedestrian and bicycle lanes. It seems like 14 that's exactly what's going on here. Except we know the 15 materials, we know the construction methodology, and, you 16 know, we know everything about what the new bridge is going 17 to be. Is that essentially on point, Mr. Coward? 18 MR. COWARD: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Next person is Joey Lynch, 669 F.M. 20 480 in Center Point. 21 MS. LYNCH: I'm going to defer to what's already 22 been said. Thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Thank you, ma'am. Next 24 person is Nina Kinney. 25 MS. KINNEY: I'm Nina Kinney and I live at 315 Red 6-28-10 54 1 Bird Loop. My idea of the bridge, this is pretty good, but 2 it's not good enough. So, I'd like to see the east side of 3 the bridge close, the park side open, and traffic just like 4 it is. They can park, walk down there. And I think, for 5 safety reasons, you don't need something like this, kids 6 jumping off of that. Rails -- if you put rails, that's 7 something else for kids to play on. And as far as accidents, 8 you'll have less accidents with the way it is. I can see 9 some improvements, but I really can't see this. You know, 10 build -- if you want to do something, build it back like it 11 is. Let the people have the park. Children in Center Point 12 have nothing to do but go to the river. What else do they 13 do? So, you stop them from going down there, and what do 14 they do? Break in houses or something, whatever. You know, 15 they're going to do something. The river should belong to 16 the community and to the children. That's used more for 17 that. Thank you. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. Next person is 19 Jim Cravotta. 20 MR. CRAVOTTA: My name's Jim Cravotta; I'm out on 21 Elm Pass II, Center Point. Most of what I had to say has 22 already been said. The only thing that I -- I want to bring 23 up or to reiterate is that safety seems to be one of the 24 overriding factors on this bridge. If we're talking about 25 widening the bridge so that you can share the bridge with 6-28-10 55 1 automobile and pedestrian, you're -- then you're going -- 2 you're increasing the danger, because people are going to -- 3 the kids are going to play on that bridge. Adults are going 4 to play on that bridge. They use it to access the river. 5 You're going to have more traffic, bigger traffic, and it's 6 going to be a huge safety factor. If they will dredge out 7 between the bridge and the dam, as has been already 8 mentioned, we've already got the grates that were put at 9 Government Crossing, that it's my understanding are just 10 sitting at TexDOT, not being used at all. These bridges were 11 built approximately the same time. They ought to just fit 12 perfectly, so that you have no problem with people getting 13 trapped under the bridge again. So, thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me ask Mr. Coward if he 16 can address that, what you just talked about, Jim, with 17 respect to the safety enhancement that was put at Government 18 Crossing. Can that be retrofit for this bridge, Mr. Coward? 19 MR. COWARD: I'd have to double-check, 20 Commissioner, but I don't see why it could not. I mean we, 21 actually used it. They're are in our yard. We actually used 22 them for a little while as we were replacing the crossing out 23 on Lone Star on the detour, but they're in our yard. And, 24 you know, if the County would like them on this -- or in this 25 crossing, I'm sure we'd be glad to give them to the County. 6-28-10 56 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Next person is 2 Susan Gray. 3 MS. GRAY: I'll pass. Everything I was going to 4 say has already been said. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. David Gray. 6 MS. GRAY: He's not here. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Fritz Ozuna. 8 MR. OZUNA: I may speak later, after I hear more 9 people talk. Is that possible, sir? Or can -- do I just 10 have to pass now? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you can pass for now, and 12 we'll see how this thing runs, okay? 13 MR. OZUNA: Thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Mary Matthews. 15 MS. MATTHEWS: My name's Mary Matthews. I live at 16 5373 Highway 27. And just a few things to say about this 17 process. What we're dealing with is a recreational and 18 scenic area here, and that's really the most important aspect 19 that I think about the park. 480 is just upstream, and isn't 20 it sort of the fact that 480 is our bridge -- is really our 21 transportation bridge, and the fact that this low-water 22 crossing was already there, so no one wants to go in and 23 remove it, right? But we don't really need it as a bridge. 24 We have a bridge. The bridge works fine. So, the way I look 25 at it, the proposal to replace this bridge is being made 6-28-10 57 1 simply because the money is there. You guys -- the County 2 can get the money from TexDOT; it's free money, so let's just 3 replace this and use this money. But we don't need this 4 bridge. The bridge is superfluous. 5 I would -- instead of doing a big study, spending 6 $85,000 on how to improve this -- how to change this plan, I 7 would like to see a proposal made and a plan study on how to 8 improve the park. Obviously, this low-water crossing is an 9 integral part of the recreational and scenic activities in 10 the park, people swimming. This is the first time we've even 11 seen anything, any of the people in the community have seen 12 this proposal at all. We haven't had time to ask Mr. Coward 13 questions. We haven't had time to talk about this proposal 14 among ourselves. Looking at this picture, it looks pretty, 15 but what effect is this going to have on the swimming area 16 that's used constantly every day? What effect is it going to 17 have on the overall scenic quality of the area? And these 18 three little pictures that are thrown up on the wall here 19 don't tell us that. 20 (Commissioner Letz left the meeting.) 21 In closing, I'd just like to say that I grew up in 22 Missouri, and on the Meramec River, and we were lucky to 23 elect an enlightened state government, and there was an old 24 bridge that crossed the river. It was an iron bridge. It 25 was no longer safe, and it was turned into a pedestrian 6-28-10 58 1 walkway, and it's used all the time. Why can't Kerr County 2 start looking at some of these options and some of these 3 solutions that enhance our tourism potential and enhance the 4 lives of people who live here, like everybody else does. 5 Okay? And that was done in the '60's, a long time ago. So, 6 I'd like to see more -- I would really like to see more of an 7 effort to look into what we could do that would affect the 8 park. If the County needs some help in repaying TexDOT the 9 85,000, I volunteer to have a bake sale. (Laughter.) 10 (Applause.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Next person is Frances 12 Lovett. 13 MS. LOVETT: I would defer and second what 14 Mr. Mosty said. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. Sherry Wardlaw. 16 MS. WARDLAW: I'm Sherry Wardlaw; I live at 103 17 Skyline in Center Point, Texas, and my comments will be 18 brief. I think this is an issue of money. I think it is 19 wasteful spending. There's too much wasteful spending going 20 on in our world today. I implore you gentlemen, please don't 21 be a part of it. Be a solution to it. It's ridiculous to 22 spend $500,000 on a bridge when there's another one right 23 there. Hello, don't y'all see it? (Laughter.) It's just 24 not necessary. Don't spend the money. Just cut your losses 25 and get out. Block it off, make it safe to tubers, and don't 6-28-10 59 1 spend the money. It's just wasteful. Thank you. 2 (Applause.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you ma'am. Verdie Williams -- 4 excuse me, Verdie Wellborn. I apologize. 5 MS. WELLBORN: I pass at this time. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Edward Wellborn? 7 MR. WELLBORN: I pass at this time. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, sir. Ken Wardlaw. 9 MR. WARDLAW: Thank you, Judge Tinley. I'm Ken 10 Wardlaw; I live at 103 Skyline in Center Point. I would like 11 to say first, I appreciate you listening to what we said at 12 that meeting and changing the concept of this bridge. What 13 happens with it, I don't know, but I appreciate you listening 14 to what we said at that -- at that meeting. I would ask that 15 when the park is being addressed, I would like to have 16 someone discuss the possibility of dredging the lake at 17 Center Point. The other lakes at Flat Rock and at Ingram 18 have been dredged and repaired. Our lake used to be deep 19 across the bridge -- at the dam. You can walk across right 20 behind the dam now and not get the change in your pockets 21 wet, 'cause it's only about 3 feet deep because of all the 22 silt that has washed down from mining in the floodplains or 23 whatever. But, anyway, I'd like to have that addressed when 24 we address the park issues. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're talking about on the 6-28-10 60 1 west side of the dam? 2 MR. WARDLAW: On the up-river side where the -- the 3 lake itself, Center Point Lake. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 5 MR. WARDLAW: Thank you. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Julie Leonard. 7 MS. LEONARD: I'm Julie Leonard from Center Point, 8 245 Raymond Mosty Lane East. I'm going to keep my comments 9 short also. I would like to address the historical aspect of 10 this area. I'm chairwoman of the Kerr County Historical 11 Commission, and I have special interest in the preservation 12 of our heritage. The bridge park crossing area in Center 13 Point has historical significance. This crossing is very 14 old. It appears to be probably part of the Old Spanish 15 Trail, which can be dated on maps back to the early 1700's. 16 They were mapped by Nicholas de Lafora. The O.S.T. is also 17 shown on maps dated in 1850. It also was the site of a 18 sawmill and a flour mill in 1868. This crossing was also the 19 only way out of Center Point to Kerrville and points west, 20 and it -- it existed only until a higher bridge was 21 constructed where the 30-foot bridge is now. 22 I feel like no area in Kerr County has -- has 23 suffered the effects of the destruction of landscape and 24 tranquility of life as has the community of Center Point. We 25 are helpless as we watch our beautiful river and landscapes 6-28-10 61 1 polluted by noise, dust, and gaping holes created by gravel 2 pits next door, perhaps the replacement of yet another 3 beautiful low water crossing, in a park no less, and it's 4 supposed to protect us and bring us development, as another 5 assault on our small town. We are destroying why people are 6 drawn to this area. Picturesque low-water crossings define 7 the hill country, and they are rapidly disappearing in the 8 name of progress and federal money. 9 I really think it would be beneficial to have more 10 communication. We're a small community; we get our 11 information from the newspaper. And if we want to find if a 12 project's available, we have to go through papers tacked on 13 the courtroom bulletin boards. Not very many of us have time 14 to do that. I naively thought this crossing bridge project 15 was finished after our March 23rd meeting. I had an e-mail 16 from Commissioner Williams saying that they had ceased 17 planning and that they were pursuing other safety 18 enhancements, and the money could be used elsewhere in 19 Precinct 2. We also were to have a task force to discuss 20 park improvement. That never happened. I feel sure we can 21 find alternatives for replacing the bridge that is an 22 integral part of a very special place in our community. 23 Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One comment, Julie. My 25 e-mail was intended to tell the community that I had asked 6-28-10 62 1 Mr. Coward to stop the design that was presented on March 23, 2 because it was pretty obvious that the responses were very 3 negative about it, and that we would go back -- and I recall 4 at that meeting saying I would ask them to take a second look 5 at it. I would like to have a group of people, 6 representatives of the community, talk about the park. We're 7 very much prepared to do that, and we'd like to make some 8 investment. I'd like to develop a plan for the park that 9 could be implemented in perhaps a three-year period of time, 10 'cause there's several things that could be done to improve 11 that park. So, when we did communicate with Mr. Coward, we 12 said stop this particular design. At a subsequent meeting 13 that we had with Judge Tinley and I and the TexDOT officials, 14 we asked them to think it again, and they have thought it 15 again. If the rethink is not good, then, you know, we'll be 16 guided accordingly. 17 MS. LEONARD: I'm looking at your e-mail. You 18 said, "I have asked TexDOT to cease design work on a 19 replacement bridge, and Mike Coward indicated they would look 20 at other possible safety enhancements and get back to me. 21 I've also suggested the money allotted to Center Point could 22 be put to use elsewhere in Kerr County's Precinct 2." 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We asked that as well, 24 Judge Tinley and I did, with TexDOT officials. And because 25 there are other projects that could be undertaken in Kerr 6-28-10 63 1 County, particularly in Precinct 2 especially -- 2 MS. LEONARD: So, we wouldn't lose this 85 -- you 3 wouldn't lose this 85,000? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know about that. 5 But -- but we were told, I believe -- am I correct, Judge? 6 We were told that they did not believe it was possible for us 7 to reallocate the funds that were committed to this project 8 to some other projects. 9 MS. LEONARD: So, do we know that? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know why, but 11 that's what they told us. 12 MS. LEONARD: Okay. So that is a fact, that they 13 can't -- you can't reallocate -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll let Mr. Coward 15 reiterate that; you can hear from it him. 16 MR. COWARD: That -- yeah. It boils down to the 17 selection of the projects were based on a statewide priority, 18 so if we choose not to do this project, we do not get to 19 reallocate it on a priority in Kerr County. It will go to 20 the next project on the list, which may be in Llano; it may 21 be in Houston. It may be somewhere else, I don't know where. 22 MS. LEONARD: So, can you use the 85,000 to, say, 23 improve, like, putting grates up or doing a pedestrian 24 bridge? Or can you use it like that? 25 MR. COWARD: I'm not -- there is -- there is no 6-28-10 64 1 $85,000. I mean, there's 85,000 that have been spent; 2 there's not $85,000 available. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: 85,000 would be what -- if the 4 project doesn't go forward, my understanding, 85,000 will be 5 what Kerr County would be required to reimburse TexDOT for 6 the projects. 7 MS. LEONARD: So, do y'all owe TexDOT more money 8 with this new design that has just -- that we've just seen? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We haven't been advised of 10 that. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 12 MS. LEONARD: So it will be free? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The -- no. The 85,000, if 14 I understand it correctly, has to do with whatever design and 15 engineering work that they did up to the point of the meeting 16 before, which he -- Mr. Coward indicates was about 20 percent 17 of the entire engineering required. So, there's still 80 18 percent engineering required no matter what. If we go to a 19 new design, I guess it's 100 percent. 20 MR. COWARD: You know, a lot of the money is spent 21 on just the survey and such, which we'll use no matter if we 22 do this bridge or no bridge. I mean, so a lot of it's in the 23 survey and some of the things you have to do to set it up. A 24 lot of money is front-loaded, so it's not going to -- I mean, 25 it's not going to cost -- 85,000 got us to 20 percent; it 6-28-10 65 1 will not take five times that to get us to 100 percent. 2 MS. LEONARD: I have another comment. I have five 3 years of -- of the Road and Bridge repairs to that bridge. I 4 see nothing in there about overtopping. They may have come 5 in and put in cement or something, but there -- everybody in 6 Center Point knows that that bridge has been sorely 7 neglected. And part of the reason is, like Ken Wardlaw said, 8 that there's gravel piled up behind the dam, and it forces 9 the water around on the road. So, anyway, I -- I think like 10 everyone else, it's a waste of our money and we don't need 11 it. There's another bridge a minute away. Make it a 12 pedestrian bridge. Close it off. We don't want trucks going 13 through there 40 miles an hour, and we don't need it. Thank 14 you. 15 AUDIENCE: Stop all trucks. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Martha Hix. 17 MS. HIX: I'm going to pass. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Is there anybody else 19 that wishes to be heard with respect to this particular 20 matter? We'll wind to the back here. 21 MS. PIEPER: Jannett Pieper, 308 Avenue B, Center 22 Point. For the people behind me that don't know me, I 23 graduated from Center Point High School. Both my boys 24 graduated there, and I've got a grandchild. And I hate to go 25 against you. I think this is perfect. It's just what we 6-28-10 66 1 need. John Mosty, I can tell you two people that's gone 2 underneath that bridge, my son and my niece. Luckily, we 3 were just able to pull my son out and he went about his way. 4 He still plays down there all the time. My niece had to go 5 to the emergency room and get stitches. So, there's two 6 people. Usually people are just pulled out and they go on 7 their way, so there's usually not documented stuff. But with 8 those grates on there, I think that would be a great safety 9 feature. And normally, if you try driving across it, you've 10 got somebody else coming and they take their half out of the 11 middle, so it's really hard to get two cars going on each 12 side, so I think it would be great to be widened as well. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Give us your name and address, 14 please. 15 MR. SWAYZE: Francis Swayze. I'm 87. Years ago, I 16 moved -- we came moved up the river from Center Point to 17 Kerrville. I was 40 years old. My only interest in the -- 18 well, I own my own place there at Center Point now, but my 19 main interest is the aesthetic value of the closed box on the 20 south side of this bridge. It's been that way for the past 21 six years that I know of, and it needs to be opened, Bruce. 22 You mentioned that they were all open. That one hasn't been. 23 But Memorial Day weekend, I drove across the bridge, and it 24 was no parking place in sight. That's how much that place is 25 used. Not that many every day, but there's always somebody 6-28-10 67 1 playing in the water. Let's leave it as is. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Moving on to the 3 back of the room. Yes, sir? 4 MR. GONZALES: Joel Gonzales, 361 Stoneleigh Road. 5 I'm a river rat. Mr. Williams, I'm the gentleman that called 6 you. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 8 MR. GONZALES: I haven't been involved in too much 9 public opinion or anything like that. I'm a Tejano, and 10 thanks to our great governor a while back, President Bush, he 11 allowed us people that go to prison and do their time, after 12 we do our time and be good boys, to vote, so I'm a registered 13 voter. And not too long ago, you know, I got involved with 14 Center Point, because he gave me that rule -- you know, he 15 gave me that right to start swimming and speaking up. And 16 I'm with most of y'all. I'm a river rat. A while back, just 17 to give you a little history, we voted down a $10 million 18 project for a new school in Center Point, reason being money, 19 again. We have property that we can build a new school, and 20 the guys that we talked to there at the feed store said, "Why 21 don't we build a new school? We have the property." Well, 22 you know, people that ignore what the people are saying, like 23 this project that I'm just hearing now that it was supposed 24 to stop, and it's cost us $85,000. Because now I'm legal -- 25 a legal guy; I pay taxes also. (Laughter.) I pay taxes also 6-28-10 68 1 now. So, my son right now just got back from Afghanistan, 2 you know, Joey Gonzales. 3 But the thing is, you know, I go there every day. 4 Every day. My nephews come here. I talk to people that come 5 and visit our park every day. You see that GMC yellow truck, 6 Mr. Williams, there just about every day. You know, and I 7 talk to people, and we love that place. I don't remember 8 ever pulling any kids out from underneath the bridge, and if 9 that happened, ma'am, I'm so very sorry. What usually 10 happens to kids is the adult supervision is not there. And 11 I'm always watching. Over here at Bear Paw, where these 12 grates were -- Bear Paw, Bear Creek, whatever it is, over 13 here in -- but they were put in there. I pulled out four 14 little kids that have actually slipped into -- between those 15 pipes and have stuck there. Me, myself, I have pulled out 16 those kids. 17 My work history, I do -- I do construction. I was 18 second man in charge right here, and shooting every point in 19 the new hospital. I know structure. I didn't go to school, 20 but that's all I've done. I know engineering; I know all of 21 that. To put these grates in, you guys, y'all don't have to 22 pay me. I've got hammer, drills, I got every angle -- 23 anchors that will go in these things to anchor them on there. 24 I got chainsaws. As you -- this picture right here, as 25 you're driving through there, and I can see the traffic where 6-28-10 69 1 accidents have happened on the curve, and it's because the 2 County goes over there and just cuts the grass, but it 3 doesn't trim the trees to where you can see the traffic 4 coming to you. As God is my witness, if you go there right 5 now, you can see where somebody cut a week and a half ago, 6 but what about the trees? I have chainsaws. Mr. Williams, 7 if you permit me, I will trim those trees nice and pretty to 8 where the traffic can come in that's coming and, you know, 9 they can see both ways. Right now you cannot see. You make 10 the curve; you can see coming down from the dam this way, but 11 if you're going and wanting to go towards Mini Mart, you 12 can't see anything, because nobody trims the trees. I will 13 trim those trees if permitted. I will. That's a safety 14 issue. 15 And, you know, on cars, traffic, we have people 16 going back and forth, and it's -- it's already a thing, you 17 know, you got to wait, and you say hi and you go on. It's a 18 courtesy thing. It's a courtesy thing, and we have it. The 19 people that I've talked to -- because, you know, I'll have a 20 beer there. I can't tell you that -- you know, we'll sit 21 down, have a beer. But the people that -- that aren't from 22 here, they come and they sit down, or they sit on their cars 23 and they say, "Ain't that nice?" That courtesy thing that we 24 have in Center Point, "Ain't that nice?" And you don't hear 25 -- you don't see nobody flipping anybody off because they're 6-28-10 70 1 waiting. Even the -- the deputy sheriffs, they park on one 2 side and they just wait. And -- and it's a thing -- when 3 people are crossing, 'cause we have -- I have crossed that 4 bridge many times. I have not yet to see -- even high school 5 kids, they go down bearing down there real fast, because 6 there's usually Mr. G, which is me, or somebody to say, "Hey, 7 slow it down," and they do. 8 It's funny; $85,000, before I used to not look at, 9 but now I do. I used to not look at $550,000, but now I do, 10 because I'm paying taxes. I'm a registered voter. Before I 11 used to not care. Now I do. Mr. Tinley, now I do. 12 Mr. Williams, now I do. I do, because that place, it is a 13 historical place. People do go every day to go and cool off 14 there every day. We look at the cypress trees. I see this 15 construction. I see the bridge. I know construction. I 16 guarantee you, those cypress trees that are next to that 17 bridge will not be there after you guys are done. Because 18 why? You have to get the front-end loaders, all kind of 19 stuff to get that little project going, just that little 20 project. I know construction. I do construction. I know 21 the destruction that is going to happen to that thing. I 22 know it for a fact. You know, I -- for a fact, I know how 23 much projects I've done that destroy that -- all that stuff 24 right there. 25 That picture was just placed in there. What 6-28-10 71 1 happens to all the machinery? Where is that at? What 2 happens to those beautiful cypresses that grow to be -- you 3 know, many people don't look at cypress trees. I do. Years 4 and years. That little cypress tree that's right next to the 5 bridge right there, I guarantee you, it's took over 100 years 6 old just to get this -- like this. How many cypress trees 7 are you going to tear down? I can go and buy -- I can build 8 benches cheaper than $5,000. I can -- I can throw you lots 9 of benches out there, solid concrete benches. You know, I am 10 good at that. And, again, my name is Joel J. Gonzales, 361 11 Stoneleigh Road. If you need my phone number, I'll give you 12 my phone number, my cell number, and call me and I will trim 13 trees. I will do that. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Spell your last name for 15 us. 16 MR. GONZALES: Gonzales, G-o-n-z-a-l-e-s. You 17 know, I will do that. I would love to be a better part and 18 to serve my community. I served it for a while bad. I want 19 to serve it for the rest of my life good. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 21 MR. GONZALES: And if I can help out there, 22 anything, please call me. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 24 (Applause.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Mosty? 6-28-10 72 1 MR. RICHARD MOSTY: Richard Mosty. I live at 330 2 China Street, and I'm sorry Mr. Letz is not here, 'cause I 3 want to talk about safety. And if I can show -- provide 4 these copies to the Court, this is a Google map of the area. 5 And I've heard -- there's one for Commissioner Letz too. 6 I've heard some safety issues, and first off, if -- if there 7 is a danger of canoers or tubers or anybody going under the 8 bridge, the Court should address it right now, not later, and 9 not however many years down the road the funding is. The 10 Court ought to address it right now, just like they did on -- 11 at Government Crossing. So, that -- that can take care of 12 that issue. The safety issues that we hear are the safety of 13 the bridge itself, which apparently it's safe enough now and 14 it's not in danger of collapse, the safety of people on the 15 river, and that can be done by the grates. We haven't heard 16 much about the safety of pedestrians and bicyclers and 17 picnickers and people that are in the park. 18 And to create -- today, that road has its own set 19 of speed bumps on it. (Laughter.) I dare say that the 20 average speed across that bridge is probably about 5 miles an 21 hour, maybe 10 if somebody's really in a hurry. And if we 22 increase the -- you know, if we increase the availability of 23 the road, we increase the ramps leading into it, we're going 24 to increase the speed. We're going to increase the size of 25 the traffic, and we're talking about increasing the 6-28-10 73 1 pedestrian flow down there, and that's a dangerous mix. 2 That's a safety concern that I think is the worst one, 3 because I can see women, I can see little children getting 4 hit on that bridge as they're down there. And I don't know 5 whether the -- beyond the bridge is the park or not, but in 6 fact, it is. It is part of the park, and an integral part of 7 going across, so that's -- that's a safety issue that I don't 8 think we're focusing on. 9 This is another one. If you'll look at this Google 10 map, you see they call this Park Avenue. It's called 11 Crossing Street. And then you see the street that goes next 12 to it, goes up to -- well, it was the old Centessi Grocery 13 many, many years ago, and is about 50 yards from the traffic 14 light. So, this -- what we're doing here is we're saying 15 let's increase the traffic flow 50 yards from the light. And 16 I'll guarantee you that TexDOT is always saying, as much as 17 they can, "Let's direct traffic to controlled intersections 18 and not have an increase in traffic." Just 50 -- maybe 50 19 yards, probably not that much. It is right there, and so why 20 in the world would you increase traffic, the speed of traffic 21 and the volume of traffic and the size of traffic through a 22 park to put it out on a state highway at an uncontrolled 23 intersection? That doesn't make sense. 24 Now, I submit that if -- if this Court is overly 25 concerned about safety of this bridge, then -- then either 6-28-10 74 1 bring it up, get rid of it altogether, or turn it into a 2 bicycler's bridge, and that'll take care of the safety issue. 3 And as to the $85,000, that is an astonishing number to me. 4 Absolutely astonishing. But if the Center Point -- people of 5 Center Point have to eat that and be penalized for that, then 6 I think we're willing to take it. Thank you. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 8 (Applause.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Anyone else wish to be heard on this 10 item? Let's take about a 15-minute recess. 11 (Recess taken from 10:38 a.m. to 10:55 a.m.) 12 - - - - - - - - - - 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to order, if 14 we might, from our recess. We'll go to Item 7, to consider, 15 discuss, take appropriate action to find and establish 16 Cummings Lane, as identified in the Midway Center unrecorded 17 plat, by prescriptive easement as a county public road, and 18 accept Cummings Lane as herein identified as a county public 19 road. Commissioner Oehler? 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This has been going on for 21 quite a while, and as you know, we had a public hearing last 22 meeting. This plat was -- was done in 1985. Cummings Lane 23 became -- part of it became County-maintained. I don't know 24 exactly what year it was, that part of it that goes over to 25 where the old -- the issue is now, with whatever the name of 6-28-10 75 1 that so-called private road is. But in 1998, we passed an 2 order to maintain the whole thing from Blue Ridge over to 3 Midway Center, and for some reason, in 2003 a portion of that 4 was supposedly taken in to be private. There is no court 5 order on that. And so, in the meantime, we -- you know, we 6 were told by one of the property owners last meeting that -- 7 that he owned property -- all the property on both sides of 8 the park that he claimed to be private. That's not true. 9 There's a lady named Ms. Butler that owns a piece of property 10 on here, and her address with 911 still carries the address 11 of Cummings Lane. She was never notified when this was made 12 private. 13 And so the reason this is on the agenda is to try 14 to put it back into county maintenance. It's about 400 feet, 15 is all it is, and it was County-maintained by prescriptive 16 easement; it was never deeded to the County. County 17 maintains Cummings Lane and Gasoline Alley, and there's 18 another section that needs to be dealt with at a later time, 19 but for the time being, I would like for us to put it back 20 like it was in 1998, that this Court authorized that to be 21 County-maintained, which would entail about another 400 feet, 22 and it would also protect the right of the person that owns 23 property on that, that basically has to go across private 24 property now, the way it is, to get to her -- to her tract of 25 land. Which should have never happened, but it did, and we 6-28-10 76 1 don't know how, and there is no court order. So, I believe 2 that the agenda item states to basically reaffirm and 3 reestablish county maintenance on that portion that has been, 4 basically, not private by any court order for the last seven 5 years. So, I would move that we -- that we reaffirm that all 6 of Cummings Lane from Blue Ridge to Midway Center be 7 determined to be County-maintained road. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Like it was. 10 MR. HENNEKE: And, Judge, excuse me. I think the 11 agenda item, the language of Commissioner Oehler's motion and 12 the order probably more specifically track with as it's 13 noticed. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. Do you want me to read 15 that into the record? Okay. That the Court finds and 16 establishes Cummings Lane, as identified in the Midway Center 17 unrecorded plat, by prescriptive easement as a county public 18 road, and to accept Cummings Lane as herein identified as a 19 county public road. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second, as 22 placed into the record. Any question or discussion on that 23 motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your 24 right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6-28-10 77 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that a done deal? 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think it's a done deal now, 6 finally. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 9. First, my 8 apologies to Mr. Marino. I actually should have taken that 9 item up prior to this last one. Item 9; consider, discuss 10 take appropriate action on subdivision of tract and new well 11 authorization. This item was placed on the agenda at the 12 request of Mr. Louis Marino. Mr. Marino, if you'd come 13 forward and tell us what this is all about, please, sir. 14 MR. MARINO: Yes. My name's Louie Marino, real 15 estate broker here in Kerrville, representing Joseph Marino 16 and Dee Marino on some property that's in Kerr County going 17 out to Highway 27 West. And, originally, there was -- it was 18 a 38-acre tract or a 41-acre tract in the county. The 19 property was given to the county, and they put a county road 20 in there, which is named Dowling Road at this point, which 21 cut off 2 acres from the original tract, and it was frontage 22 on Johnson Creek. And thre's a little -- small little bed 23 and breakfast type cottage that's set up there, and want to 24 petition the Court so we could subdivide the property from 25 the original or the main tract, independent of itself, so it 6-28-10 78 1 can be sold independently, and also authorization to drill a 2 well on this particular property at some future date. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm looking at the -- the copy 4 that's furnished with the material which we received, and I 5 have to confess, I'm not sure how well I understand that. 6 Insofar as trying to determine where Highway 27 -- I do note 7 where Johnson Creek is -- is identified, and there's a 8 mention of center line of existing road, but I'm -- I'm 9 otherwise somewhat in the dark. 10 MR. MARINO: Okay. Well, that plat is -- like I 11 say, it's an older plat right there, taken off this -- this 12 large one. Want me to bring it up there so you can see it? 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll help you whenever you 14 need some help. 15 MR. MARINO: Well, you've got the idea here, Bruce. 16 In other words, this is where the -- this is Highway 27 West. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Highway 27. This is Dowling 18 Road that comes down, and parallel there is the creek running 19 down through here. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This parallels the creek, and 22 then there's a little bridge across, a low water crossing 23 here that comes across, and then the county road continues on 24 back to here. Actually, it goes on beyond down here, but it 25 goes back down here farther, I believe. Doesn't it? 6-28-10 79 1 MR. MARINO: Yes, about a mile. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. Anyway, what happened 3 was, this -- this has been a county road for a long time. 4 Used to be Dowdy Road until it was changed to Dowling, and 5 there is no deed to the County of this -- where the county 6 road runs; it's just prescriptive easement. And so, 7 therefore, the tract that is 41 acres includes this 2 acres 8 that was cut off by the county road. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay? And so that's kind of 11 where we are. And what they would like to do is to figure 12 out a way to be able to sell this 2 acres. But the problem 13 is, right now they have a shared well, because they own all 14 the property. From the house -- the main house, that goes 15 down to another cabin along in here, and then they had -- it 16 goes across the road to the 2-acre lot. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And so the deal is, they do 19 not have 5 acres to be able to drill a well, to get a well 20 permit, so Headwaters sent them over here to us. And I don't 21 -- I think that's kind of reverse of the way it should be. I 22 have -- I have -- I have talked to both Louis and Joe about 23 this. And after talking to Jonathan about it this morning, 24 he says that the only way that it could even be 3 acres -- 25 and Leonard Odom, too -- it would have to be at least 3 acres 6-28-10 80 1 if they had a shared well. If Headwaters would allow them to 2 share the well that they're using water out of now, which is 3 not on the 2 acres. That is the only way, or put -- make it 4 5 acres plus, and then they would be able to get -- which 5 this would entail taking land off the opposite side of the 6 road. In order to be able to get -- you have to get 3 acres, 7 basically, off the east side of the road in order to be able 8 to get a well permit. Or, you know, the only other option is 9 that somebody pump out of the creek. 10 MR. MARINO: That was another question also. How 11 much water is allowed to be pumped out of Johnson Creek on a 12 daily basis? Is there a limit? 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, it's for domestic use 14 only. 15 MR. MARINO: Yeah, for residential purposes. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Household/domestic. I don't know 17 that there is any limitation under the -- 18 MR. MARINO: Okay. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: -- state Water Code. 20 MR. ODOM: There's a line size, like a 2-inch line. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's a lot of water, a 2- 22 inch line. 23 MR. MARINO: Yeah. Just an alternative right 24 there, but -- 25 MR. ODOM: Just domestic use, livestock. 6-28-10 81 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Household and domestic is the 2 classification, Commissioner Oehler. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But I don't think there's an 4 exemption from the acreage. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not for the well. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And I don't even know about 7 pumping out of the creek, so that's a question I don't have 8 the answer to. And that's what I told him. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have the authority to grant 10 well permits without purview falling exclusively within 11 Headwaters? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's totally within 14 Headwaters. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what's I was thinking. I 16 couldn't figure out why they sent it over here. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, they wanted us to say 18 it. But I guess it was okay to sell the lot before they 19 decide whether they'd issue a permit or not, which seems to 20 me to be reverse. And I -- I asked them to go talk to 21 Headwaters, and they did, and Headwaters sent them over here. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's solely within their 23 purview, not ours. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I know. We don't have any 25 authority on wells. So, they're looking for guidance, is 6-28-10 82 1 what they're wanting to know from us, to what they should do, 2 what they can do to be able to sell this 2 acres. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mr. Odom, have you had an 4 opportunity to look at this? 5 MR. ODOM: This morning was only time that I... 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. What did you think 7 this morning? (Laughter.) 8 MR. ODOM: I -- if it's a well, the rules say for 9 water availability, it's 5 acres. However, there is 10 something in water availability that says if there's a shared 11 well, then the minimum was 3 acres. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 13 MR. ODOM: Now, the question was -- is what this -- 14 there's 41 acres this gentleman has altogether, or the data 15 that I saw, so there's enough land there to get 3 acres, but 16 I'm not quite sure what the other -- that one side was. 17 People say 2 acres, or whatever it is. I really don't know. 18 MR. MARINO: County road separated it, that plus or 19 minus 2 acres, from the larger tract, 38 acres or 39 acres. 20 See, that's the reason. In other words, to get more than the 21 2 acres, plus or minus, you're going to have to sell property 22 on the other side of the county road. 23 MR. ODOM: On the other side to make it work. 24 MR. MARINO: Yes, uh-huh. 25 MR. ODOM: To me, the rules specifically say 3 6-28-10 83 1 acres minimum. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And that's if Headwaters 3 would allow you to use the well that's furnishing water now 4 as a shared well. 5 MR. MARINO: That's a minimum of 3 acres. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's right. 7 MR. ODOM: That's right. 8 MR. MARINO: Okay. 9 MR. ODOM: Then you need to consider, if you ever 10 sell the other, whoever buys that property that the well's on 11 may have a -- you may have difficulty with a shared well. 12 That's the reason 5 acres -- 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It encumbers that piece of 14 property. We talked about that. 15 MR. MARINO: Yeah, it does that. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 17 MR. MARINO: Okay. But it would be all right to 18 petition the Court, in other words, to subdivide this 2 acres 19 and have it surveyed aside and separate from the original 20 tract so it can be sold? 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not without water 22 availability. 23 MR. MARINO: And not -- and using the creek as a 24 pumping station to pump up to a holding tank, just like you 25 do on a ranch or something like that? I have a ranch in 6-28-10 84 1 Junction that does the same thing. Not out of the river or a 2 creek, but -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't know what -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is it going to be -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That comes under U.G.R.A. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is it going to be developed 7 beyond just subdividing at this time, the 2 acres? 8 MR. MARINO: No, sir, be just sold as one tract. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There is a well on it. And 10 they did everything else right. I mean, they got a -- they 11 got a floodplain permit when they built the house. But 12 there's -- this 2 acres is cut off, basically, from the other 13 because the county road goes through it, but it was never 14 deeded, so it all still shows to be one tract on the plat. 15 This is property that's been in the family for years and 16 years and years, and now they want to sell -- 17 MR. MARINO: It's a historical tract, actually part 18 of the Dowdy Ranch, which was -- you know, a lot of heirs to 19 that property up in there. Actually, there was even an 20 Indian uprising right back in there where people were killed. 21 It's a historical place also. So -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: If -- I'm just thinking out loud, 23 now. If -- if you file a plat which proposes to carve out 24 that 2 acres, the first question that comes to mind is 25 whether, with no other information, we're obligated to bring 6-28-10 85 1 the Headwaters rules over here into our consideration and 2 say, well, you've got no water there, so therefore we're 3 going to deny your right to replat. Or, on the other hand, 4 if the water's not even brought in as an issue, and you're 5 willing to obtain your water under existing state rules out 6 of a waterway that it abuts. And the honest answer to my 7 question to myself is I don't know if we're required to 8 incorporate that 3-acre rule. I know that our subdivision 9 rules are such that we're generally -- we're generally 10 required to focus on water availability when we consider 11 subdivisions or subdivision plats, so my first thinking would 12 be we probably are, but I don't know. I really don't, Mr. 13 Marino. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge? Does this not come 15 in conflict with our agreement with Water Development Board 16 for the model subdivision rules that we enacted? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Those have county-wide application. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably would. I don't know 20 without laying it side-by-side. That would be something I'd 21 want the County Attorney to -- 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Rob, do you have any input on 23 this? 24 MR. HENNEKE: Well, gentlemen, I mean, it's tough 25 to give a specific answer at this point, because there's not 6-28-10 86 1 been an application that's been submitted for you to 2 officially consider. As I understand it, it's kind of a -- 3 what we're here discussing is almost a preclearance; "If we 4 do this, would y'all give us permission?" step, but until you 5 actually have the application -- and we have the model 6 subdivision rules adopted. We have the platting rules. 7 Everything is -- the rules are there. Everybody knows what 8 the rules are and what they imply. And if Mr. Moreno submits 9 an application that -- that complies with all of the rules, 10 then it complies with all the rules. If it doesn't, then it 11 doesn't. I mean, you know, and I don't think that we 12 would -- I think granting a variance would -- would run afoul 13 or cause a problem with T.W.D.B., and I'd be very cautious 14 to, you know, advise the Court to consider anything other 15 than what complied with the rules that are in place. And if 16 it does, great. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I'm very -- I'm very 18 cautious and fearful of the point, because our agreement with 19 Water Development Board for the continuation of the planning 20 and so forth for the Center Point project requires that we 21 follow the model subdivision rules explicitly. And so I -- I 22 would want to be very certain that we're not in conflict or 23 bridging them in any way. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Here's a question. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 6-28-10 87 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Would it be a violation if 2 the water was being taken from the creek rather than from a 3 well? Would that be a -- within the proper lot size, being 4 less than 3 acres? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a really good 6 question. I don't know. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, because of the 8 circumstances of what this is, and if you didn't put it on 9 water availability and you did not have to worry about a 10 shared well, what's the size? Could you say? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we need to ask the 12 County Attorney to put that question to the attorney for 13 Texas Water Development Board, see what answer comes back. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't know that you can do 15 it any other way. Without having a shared well, 3 acres, 5 16 acres plus if you want to put a well, I don't think there's 17 any -- any legal way. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't either. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Only way it may be possible 20 would be under -- if you -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Water from the creek. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Water from the creek, where 23 you didn't have to worry about water availability for a well 24 or a shared well. What's the lot size minimum that would 25 still be within the requirements? Or would you -- you know, 6-28-10 88 1 subdivision -- model subdivision rules? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Give him some work. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I know he needs -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Marino, it doesn't appear like 5 we're -- I think we've raised more questions, -- 6 MR. MARINO: I think so. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: -- but no answers. 8 MR. MARINO: I think so. But even at the time, you 9 know, way back when -- I don't know how long it's been; 25, 10 30 years when the -- when this property was deeded to the 11 County for them to put this access road, this county road 12 across Johnson Creek, you know, and split the main tract, was 13 there any consideration at that time on the city or anybody's 14 part? What are we going to do with this piece of property 15 that was cut off from the original tract? How can you put a 16 man in a situation like that? 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, the thing is, Louie, 18 it's not deeded. 19 MR. MARINO: No, it's not deeded. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's not deeded. It's 21 prescriptive use, and that's the difference. If it had been 22 deeded, I think it would be different, but it never was 23 deeded. 24 MR. MARINO: When the land was given to the city -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It wasn't given. It's 6-28-10 89 1 still -- the land that the road runs on still belongs within 2 that 41-acre tract. 3 MR. MARINO: Yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Legally. It's a prescriptive 5 easement that the County maintained the road. 6 MR. MARINO: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And everybody back then was 8 wanting the County to maintain the road so they had a way in 9 and out, and so people just let the County go across it. But 10 that never was deeded. There's a big difference between 11 deeded and prescriptive. 12 MR. MARINO: I'm sure there is. So -- 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I mean, I hate to tell you 14 that, but that's just the way -- I mean, that's the truth. 15 MR. MARINO: So, what would the ruling be at this 16 time, Your Honor? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, obviously, there is -- there 18 is none. We're looking at needing more answers to more 19 questions at this point in time. 20 MR. ODOM: What is the easement -- may I -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 22 MR. ODOM: I'm sorry I butted in. What is the 23 easement for the road? How long is the road and what that 24 easement is? If that's the case, you've got 2 plus some-odd 25 acres, plus that. We've gone through recently with allowing 6-28-10 90 1 that to be done to meet that standard. That's a question -- 2 you need to find out how much land is involved in the road 3 easement, and see if it doesn't come close to that 3 acres. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And add that to the 5 property. 6 MR. ODOM: That's right. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Add it back. 8 MR. ODOM: To see where that's at. 9 MR. MARINO: See, 'cause plus or minus 2 acres has 10 not been determined because of the survey. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You need to get it surveyed 12 and need to know how much right-of-way -- 13 MR. MARINO: 60-foot easement or whatever it is out 14 there. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, it's usually 30 on 16 those -- very rarely more than 30 in those old roads. 17 MR. MARINO: On a county road? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But, anyway, include that in 19 the -- into the size of the tract, the roadway all the way 20 around. 21 MR. MARINO: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Where it goes out of the 23 property, and see what that surveys out, and it may be close 24 to three. 25 MR. MARINO: Okay. 6-28-10 91 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because that's quite a ways. 2 That's 30 foot wide, say, and it's -- 3 MR. MARINO: Yeah, that is a long way around. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's probably, what, 600 5 feet, maybe? 6 MR. ODOM: 18,000 square feet, half a -- half an 7 acre, third of an acre maybe. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Could get close to the three. 9 Then you could do the shared well thing maybe, if you go -- 10 if Headwaters would approve it as a shared well. It's 11 already in existence. We need to find out whether you can 12 pump out of the creek, and we can -- 13 MR. MARINO: See, that's the thing. The shared 14 well might not be an issue. But, again, the -- as the county 15 road comes through there, you had brought up earlier that a 16 shared well might deter from possible sale of the original 17 tract with the 2 acres across the road. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. MARINO: Two separate tracts, and vice-versa. 20 It could work in the reverse on the 2 acres with the 38 21 acres. Do you see what I'm saying there? So, the main thing 22 we would want to agree on is if we could subdivide that part 23 out, and let us check on that to see how much that road is in 24 there. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If you'll get it surveyed 6-28-10 92 1 today and find out how much that is total with the road 2 right-of-way and everything, because all that road 3 right-of-way is on your property. Right, Dee? 4 MS. MARINO: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's even wider, because it 6 goes up into that area where that cattle guard is. 7 MS. MARINO: Mm-hmm. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And you're talking about a 9 pretty good chunk in there. That might make it over 3 acres. 10 MS. MARINO: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Close, anyway. 12 MR. MARINO: Yeah, be very close. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's a wide area, going 14 after -- after you cross the creek and start toward your 15 gate. 16 MS. MARINO: It is a lot. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's a lot of area. 18 MR. MARINO: That would be the -- the arrangement 19 for determining whether it was 3 acres or not for a shared 20 well? 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 3 acres for a shared well. 22 MR. MARINO: A shared well, and being able to 23 subdivide that from the other tract. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's correct. 25 MR. MARINO: Okay. 6-28-10 93 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But the shared well issue 2 would have to be taken up with Headwaters. But if we can 3 work -- Rob's going to check and see what the minimum size is 4 if you pump out of the creek. Then you don't ever have to 5 worry about well or shared well. 6 MR. MARINO: Right. Right. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's the only other avenue 8 that I can think of that has any bearing, or could maybe at 9 all, besides going with the 3 or the 5. 10 MR. MARINO: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And that's just the law. 12 That's -- if we start granting exceptions, we're going to be 13 in trouble. 14 MR. MARINO: What's that? 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we grant some exceptions, 16 that we can't do that. 17 MR. MARINO: No, I can understand that. I can 18 understand that. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We'll have everybody in here 20 wanting to do the same thing, and our rules are worthless. 21 MR. MARINO: So we're just wanting guidance to see 22 which way the property owners should go. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 24 MR. MARINO: Thank you. Appreciate the Court's 25 time. 6-28-10 94 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Before we go to the remainder of our 2 agenda, the -- before the break, we were on Items 3 and 6, 3 and we -- all the public participants, we heard them, and I 4 think Mr. Williams -- Commissioner Williams had some final 5 comments he wanted to make about that, so I'll pass that to 6 him at this time. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just want to -- thank 8 you, Judge. I just want to say that there won't be any 9 disposition today, but there will be a subsequent 10 Commissioners Court meeting at which I will place an agenda 11 item for the Court's consideration. Because everybody has to 12 realize that we're working with a contract with TexDOT, so 13 any change in that contract status in terms of direction for 14 a bridge or not a bridge or whatever would require 15 Commissioners Court action and subsequent notice to TexDOT. 16 So, that won't happen today, but I will style an agenda item 17 for the Court to discuss at its next meeting. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Any member of the Court 19 have anything further on any of the listed agenda items that 20 we haven't already covered? Let's go to Section -- 21 MR. BOLLIER: Commissioners, Judge, you -- you 22 passed 8 -- 1.8. 23 MS. HYDE: Passed 8. 24 MR. BOLLIER: Remember, you called it and she 25 wasn't here. 6-28-10 95 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pass 8, collect $200. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We sure did. 3 MS. HYDE: Sorry. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go back to -- that's why I 5 asked that question -- Item 8; consider, discuss, take 6 appropriate action regarding modification of position 7 schedule within Road and Bridge to include certified mechanic 8 position. Ms. Hyde? 9 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. Gentlemen, when we began 10 doing a lot of safety training and training out at Road and 11 Bridge this year, we found that we need to modify the 12 position schedule. We currently have a mechanic's position 13 that was in there as a 17, and we need to modify that. We're 14 not going to add any position; that's not what we're 15 requesting, but we are asking if we can modify it to include 16 up to and not -- not excluding a 23.1 so that we can hire a 17 certified mechanic at Road and Bridge. That difference is -- 18 if we go from $36,000 to $40,000, the difference in the 19 budget would be $8,688 up to $10,698, depending on their 20 experience, and we have that money in the budget. 21 MS. HARGIS: Left over from the positions. Keep in 22 mind, though, you're increasing that for next year, so -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What did she say? 24 MS. HARGIS: I said -- 25 MS. HYDE: She said we have money this year 'cause 6-28-10 96 1 we haven't used it; we have not filled those positions, but 2 that we would be increasing the budget next year by $8,800 or 3 $10,000. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: And we need to upgrade that position 5 in order to satisfy regulatory requirements? 6 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 11 approval of the agenda item in accordance with the 12 discussion. Question or discussion on the motion? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tell me again where the 14 money is? 15 MS. HARGIS: There was some positions that -- that 16 weren't filled all year, you know, and so there's money left 17 in the salary line item. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just across-the-board 19 positions that weren't filled? Like -- 20 MS. HARGIS: There was a couple of positions -- 21 MS. HYDE: We've had some people that were -- that 22 left the organization. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we're not talking about 24 mechanics? 25 MS. HARGIS: No. 6-28-10 97 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And specifics? Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, if you don't fill those 3 positions, we won't have to increase the budget next year. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That usually works. 5 MS. HYDE: No, sir, we need those positions. 6 MR. ODOM: I need those positions. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just thought I'd throw that 8 out there. 9 MS. HYDE: We need those positions, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So -- and there's an 11 increase of 8,600 -- 12 MS. HYDE: Between 8,600 and 10,000, Commissioner. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Further question or discussion on 14 the motion? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hey, I'm not through yet. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why don't you know whether 18 it's 8,600 or 10,000? 19 MS. HYDE: Because it depends on the person's 20 experience and what Mr. Odom and Kelly want to fill that 21 position. We're looking at a mid-range of 3,600 -- 36,000 to 22 about 40,000 to get an A.S.E. certified mechanic. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you don't -- we don't 24 plug in a specific number and say, "This is what we're 25 offering for this position"? 6-28-10 98 1 MS. HYDE: There wasn't a position. That 2 somehow -- in the position schedule, probably seven to eight 3 years ago, they lost where they put in that it needed to be a 4 certified mechanic. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Further question or discussion on 7 the motion? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, but I think that's a 9 good point. We -- it is affecting next year's budget. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure it is. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Unless they don't fill 13 positions next year, and -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- there's money left over, 16 you know. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To balance out -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's remember that. This 19 would be a good argument. We'll get in a good one on this 20 one. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor of the motion, signify 22 by raising your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As a matter of fact, I'm all 25 for it now. 6-28-10 99 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Okay. Now, do we 4 have anything else on our regular agenda that needs 5 attention? Let's move on to Section 4 of the agenda, payment 6 of the bills. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move we pay the bills. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to pay the 10 bills. We have any question or discussion? Ms. Hargis, on 11 Page 3, under J.P. 2, we got a capital outlay item there. I 12 was thinking we had all capital outlay items off over on the 13 side. 14 MS. HARGIS: I'll have to check that one. They 15 didn't bring that one to my attention. I -- let me look at 16 it before -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. And where is that 18 furniture? 19 MR. BOLLIER: Oh. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question or discussion on 21 the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 22 your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 6-28-10 100 1 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll go to 2 budget amendments. We've got a Budget Amendment Request 3 Summary, items -- request numbers 1 through 14. 4 MS. HARGIS: I think we want to pull 14. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: 10 through 14? 6 MS. HARGIS: Well, it's 1 through 13, and -- let's 7 see, 1 through 9 -- 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 revolve around the 8 same issue, and Mr. Walston has asked that we pull that 9 amendment until he has time to discuss that with the Court 10 and put on it the -- on as an agenda item. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: So, 10 through 14 come off? 12 MS. HARGIS: Mm-hmm. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So we're left with 1 14 through 9. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: While we're here, though, 16 can we discuss that? I mean, what -- what would be the 17 reason that he wants to make an agenda item? Or -- has he 18 bought the truck without authority? 19 MS. HARGIS: No, he has not. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And so if he bought the 21 truck, then it should be on here, right? 22 MS. HARGIS: Yes, that is correct. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we -- 24 MS. HARGIS: If you want to approve it, you can. I 25 mean, there's nothing that says you can't. He did not fill 6-28-10 101 1 the position, so he has funds available to buy the truck, 2 which will not affect his overall budget for the year, as you 3 can see. Which will provide them with another vehicle. He 4 first came in asking me for a used vehicle, but it was a 5 single cab and wouldn't provide extra room, you know, in case 6 they needed to carry kids. So, he -- so we went to a crew 7 cab. And, again, we got the price down. We know 8 approximately what the price is, 'cause we were -- you know, 9 we got an estimate on it. But, I mean, to buy capital in 10 this particular line item using these funds for that, to me, 11 is a good use of -- it gets all of our vehicles up to where 12 we need to be. I have some more suggestions later when we go 13 through the budget workshops, but he needs a vehicle. I 14 think if you've seen his own personal truck, it's -- it's 15 getting pretty old. He's putting a lot of miles on it. You 16 know, but they do have times where they take a lot of kids. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, there's some other 18 considerations I'd like to put into the mix also, so I think 19 it's good if we do defer on it. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No question. I just -- I'm 21 just trying -- my memory's not as good as it used to be, and 22 I don't remember having the conversation. I remember the 23 van. I remember the van. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Me too. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But I don't remember -- I 6-28-10 102 1 don't remember -- 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There hasn't been one. 3 MS. HARGIS: There hasn't been one. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There has not been a 5 conversation in this room on the truck? 6 MS. HARGIS: No. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, that's what's crap 8 about this, is that it needs to be talked about in here. 9 MS. HARGIS: That's my fault, not his. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not saying it's 11 anybody's fault. I'm just saying that, you know, we're -- 12 we're skirting things here that should not be going on. 13 Thank you. Otherwise -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that point was made to 15 Mr. Walston. That's one of the reasons he asked that it be 16 pulled. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: 'Cause there's not been a 19 conversation in here. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're voting on 1 through 9? 21 Is that the -- 22 MS. HARGIS: That's correct. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Do I hear a motion that Budget 24 Amendment Requests Numbers 1 through 9, as shown on the 25 summary presented, be approved? 6-28-10 103 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for Budget 4 Amendment Requests Numbers 1 through 9 be approved. Any 5 question or discussion on the motion? All in favor of the 6 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Late bills. 11 MS. HARGIS: Yes, we do have -- we had the 12 Windstream bill, but we -- we're having it again, the same 13 problems we've had in the past, with trying to find out where 14 the charges went. So, we didn't get it together, and so it's 15 a late bill. We also have an opportunity here. We have 16 different trunks coming in with numbers off of them. Hill 17 Country has actually offered us credit if we'll give them 18 some of these bills, and we're working on that as well, since 19 we have two phone companies coming in at the same time. But 20 we have to designate which one of these that we're going to 21 do. But there is a possibility of getting a refund for these 22 -- these fees. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Is this also part of the 24 switch-over, or are we not there yet? 25 MS. HARGIS: We are not there yet. We are not 6-28-10 104 1 there yet. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We're going to have to call somebody 3 from North Carolina and Arkansas down here? 4 MS. HARGIS: Apparently. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll be glad to make the call and 6 invite them. 7 MS. HARGIS: I know. I understand. That's what I 8 said. But Hill Country's -- I received a call from them 9 about a week ago. They're working very hard on this. Part 10 of the problem is there's not numbers associated with what 11 they need to remove, and when we send -- for instance, if we 12 say it's on Country Lane, and we spell it "L-a-n-e," if it's 13 not "Country Ln," they won't remove it. So, it's like they 14 send one, they send it back, and then they send them another 15 one. It's -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They're just playing games 17 with you. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They're doing one at a time? 19 MS. HARGIS: Yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 21 MS. HARGIS: So it's a problem. But there are a 22 lot of people working on it, so they're not -- Hill Country 23 said they're not ready for us to jump in yet, but that's the 24 reason why they're offering us the credit on -- on these 25 Windstream bills. But there is one line we're going to keep 6-28-10 105 1 from Windstream; it's an emergency line, and so that one we 2 will not be able to. But, again, it hasn't been thoroughly 3 identified because of all the combination, so it's kind of -- 4 it's like you have one line, but yet there's 20 lines on it. 5 Does that make a lot of sense? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I still think that 7 you're on the right track of either a phone call from this 8 Court or a letter from the Court at some point. I know that 9 they're not ready -- these folks are not ready for that yet, 10 but I think that we need to be poised to write an ugly letter 11 and tell them to get on the ball. We've got -- we've got 12 some things to do here, and there's some -- there's some 13 serious -- there could be serious issues before it's over. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Already is. 15 MS. HARGIS: I just want to remind you, speaking of 16 the budget amendments, the current budget is -- the A.R. 17 budget is open for all the Commissioners to access. And if 18 you have trouble, or if you've forgotten how, just let us 19 know; we will help you with that. You wouldn't be any 20 different from all the department heads who had to have a 21 refresher course on getting onto it. So, if you need help 22 getting into the system so you can review it, please let us 23 know. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 25 THE CLERK: I need a motion. 6-28-10 106 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Do I hear a motion that the late 2 bill be approved? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to approve 6 a late bill. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 7 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. I've been 12 presented with monthly reports from Constable, Precinct 4; 13 Constable, Precinct 3; Kerr County Treasurer for May 2010; 14 Kerr County Treasurer, Amended Affidavit for February, March, 15 and April 2010. Do I hear a motion that they be approved as 16 presented? 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So moved. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that the 20 indicated items be approved as presented. Question or 21 discussion on the motion? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, did you -- I went 23 into one of my comas there for a second. Was Indigent Health 24 care included in that list? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: No, it's not on this particular one, 6-28-10 107 1 but we do get monthly reports from those folks. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I got it here, and -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: And what they're doing is, they're 4 giving us a snapshot of the same period last year. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Which is very informative. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is very informative, and 8 just outstanding what's going on down there. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is super. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Unbelievable. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or discussion 13 on the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 14 raising your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Amazing, when you take the 20 fox out of the henhouse, you know, how much better it is. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, unbelievable. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have any reports from 23 Commissioners in connection with their liaison or committee 24 assignments? Commissioner Baldwin? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 6-28-10 108 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We'll have the bathometric 3 survey on the agenda for the 26th of July. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Oehler? 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I'm hoping the Sheriff 6 will get back to town where we can have some budget 7 discussions. I think maybe he's back in town, but he's not 8 here today. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else? 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Nope. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have any reports from elected 12 officials or department heads? And, here again, we're 13 missing the Sheriff. County Attorney? 14 MR. HENNEKE: Judge, Commissioners, just a brief 15 announcement to congratulate Barbara Holmes, who, after 21 16 years of service to the County, has announced her retirement 17 at the end of August. She's eligible. She's served the 18 County very, very well for a long, long time, and has decided 19 to go spend more time with her grandkids. So, she's not 20 here, but I hope y'all will congratulate her, and she 21 certainly will be missed. And I thank her for all that she's 22 done for Kerr County and the County Attorney's office. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I was going to inquire, had you not 24 said it, if she decided she wanted to spend a bunch more time 25 with her grandkids, and I can understand that. Any other 6-28-10 109 1 elected officials or department heads? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we have an executive 3 order that she attend our Christmas party so we can recognize 4 her. 5 MS. PIEPER: Oh, yes. 6 MR. HENNEKE: I agree. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: When is she going to retire? 8 MR. HENNEKE: End of August. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Wow. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other reports to come before the 11 Court? We're adjourned. 12 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 11:40 a.m.) 13 - - - - - - - - - - 14 15 STATE OF TEXAS | 16 COUNTY OF KERR | 17 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 18 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 19 official reporter for the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 20 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 21 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 1st day of July, 2010. 22 23 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 24 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 25 Certified Shorthand Reporter 6-28-10