1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, November 8, 2010 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X November 8, 2010 2 PAGE --- Visitors' Input 6 3 --- Commissioners' Comments 10 4 1.1 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on request by Hill Country Dispute Resolution 5 Center to renew contract with Kerr County to provide mediation services; request funding 13 6 1.2 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to re- 7 new Kerr County Market Days usage license for 2011 16 8 1.3 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on request from Texas Heritage Music Foundation, a 9 501(c)(3), to use Union Church at no cost for a fundraiser for educational projects 18 10 1.4 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 11 request from the Hill Country District Junior Livestock Association to close Riverside Drive 12 during 2011 stock show 22 13 1.6 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve Maintenance Department building permanent 14 wall with door in old Environmental Health office to create office for County Treasurer 25 15 1.5 Presentation by Peter Lewis regarding possible 16 additions to new outdoor arena at Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center 26 17 1.7 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 18 implementation of the burn ban 31 19 1.9 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to set public hearing to vacate, abandon & discontinue a 20 portion of Verde Creek Rd. from FM 480 to Hwy 173 pursuant to Texas Transportation Code 32 21 1.10 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 22 forfeiture report for Constable, Precinct 2 34 23 1.14 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on FY 2010 Chapter 59 Asset Forfeiture Report for 24 Kerr County Sheriff's Office 34 25 1.15 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to select a date for annual county Christmas party 38 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) November 8, 2010 2 PAGE 1.16 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 3 approve contracts with Hunt VFD, Ingram VFD, Turtle Creek VFD, and Comfort VFD; allow County 4 Judge to sign same 40 5 1.19 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve TxDOT grant for Routine Airport Maintenance 6 Program (RAMP Grant) for Kerr County/Kerrville Airport; authorize County Judge, County Attorney, 7 and County Auditor to execute RAMP Grant document, and designate Joint Airport Board through its 8 Airport Manager as Kerr County's authorized representative 41 9 1.20 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to set 10 time and date for Entrust to make presentation regarding employee health benefits 42 11 1.21 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 12 reappoint Commissioner Williams to AACOG Board of Directors for new term to expire December 31, 13 2012; forward appropriate notification to AACOG 52 14 1.22 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve proposal for fees from architect Peter 15 Lewis for his work on a new Courthouse Annex in Ingram 53 16 1.8 Presentation on SEP-HCP South Edwards Plateau- 17 Habitat Conservation Plan 59 18 1.11 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to award contract for administrative services to 19 GrantWorks for support services, Colonias Construction Fund Contract No. 710065 99 20 1.12 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 21 approve various resolutions, an opportunity plan and a HUD certification of exemption in 22 connection with TxCDBG Contract No. 710065 101 23 1.13 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve resolution to amend Exhibit A of the 24 Performance Statement in conjunction with Kerr County TxCDBG Contract No. 728065 104 25 4 1 I N D E X (Continued) November 8, 2010 2 PAGE 1.17 Presentation on The MoneyLogic Financial Wellness 3 program for the benefit of county employees 106 4 1.23 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on proposal from Texas Correctional Industries 5 (TDCJ) to build security perimeter fence around Kerr County Law Enforcement Center and S.O. Annex 118 6 1.18 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 7 adopt order prohibiting the keeping, ownership, possession, confinement, care for, or custody of 8 dangerous wild animals within Kerr County and repealing the November 26, 2001, Commissioners 9 Court Order No. 37332 125 10 4.1 Pay Bills 177 4.2 Budget Amendments 179 11 4.3 Late Bills 183 4.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 184 12 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee 13 Assignments 184 5.2 Reports from Elected Officials/Department Heads 188 14 --- Adjourned 199 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 On Monday, November 8, 2010, at 9:00 A.M., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 8 Let me call to order this regularly scheduled meeting of the 9 Kerr County Commissioners Court posted and scheduled for this 10 date and time, Monday, November the 8th, 2010, at 9 a.m. It 11 is that time now. If you would, please, if you'll stand, 12 join me in a moment of prayer, followed by the pledge of 13 allegiance to the flag of our country. 14 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Be seated, please. 16 There seems to be some interest with respect to the -- I 17 believe it's the Number 8 item on the agenda. That is a 18 timed item for 10:30. That matter will be heard at 10:30. 19 We will take it up at that time, and so those of you who only 20 have an interest in that item, but don't wish to watch the 21 entertainment that takes place prior to that time, why, 22 you're free to go. You won't miss anything if you're back by 23 10:30; we'll take it up then. But with respect to the 24 non-agenda item items, if there are any of you here that wish 25 to be heard on any matter that is not a listed agenda item, 11-8-10 6 1 now is the opportunity to come forward and be heard. Tell us 2 what's on your mind about that item. When you do so, we'd 3 ask that you give your name and address for the record, 4 please. If you wish to be heard on an agenda item, there are 5 participation forms located at the rear of the room. We'd 6 ask that you fill those out so that we know there is someone 7 who wishes to be heard on those items. That helps me to not 8 miss you when we get to that item. If you've not filled out 9 a participation form and wish to be heard on an item, get my 10 attention in some manner; I will give you the opportunity to 11 be heard, even though you have not filled out one of those 12 forms. But for those of you that wish to be heard on any 13 matter that is not a listed agenda item, now is your 14 opportunity to come forward and be heard. And we have the 15 Sheriff. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. I have a problem, and I 17 need your assistance. We went to the new phone system over a 18 month ago, and ever since we did, we've had nothing but 19 problems, one after another. I wouldn't doubt it if we're 20 not answering but about two-thirds of the calls coming into 21 the Sheriff's Office. The ones that are locking up, you have 22 to unplug them, start all over. You try and answer calls; 23 you can't answer them. We're getting people calling us 24 saying it sounds like the system's hanging up on them 25 constantly. Our old contract hadn't expired yet when we went 11-8-10 7 1 to this one. And I don't know what needs to happen, 2 gentlemen, but I'm not satisfied one bit with this new 3 cheaper phone system that the Sheriff's Office has. It has 4 been nothing but problems. Everybody's complaining about it, 5 and I don't know what to do about it. And we've reported 6 them to the help desk. John and them have worked on them. 7 They're doing -- I'm not saying they're not trying, but I 8 don't know what we do. The system's very unsatisfactory, in 9 my opinion. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is your inferior system 11 different from the inferior system we have in the 12 courtroom -- in the courthouse? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Except ours is running 24 14 hours a day and we've got over 20 lines coming into it, and 15 we're just constantly having them lock up. You can't do 16 anything, where they're dropping calls. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You talk to Rusty 18 Trolinger? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We have sent probably 20 or 30 20 different deals to the help desk. They've been out there 21 every day working on this. It's all computer-generated now 22 or something. I don't know, okay? I don't know the system. 23 Boerne says that -- Kendall County says they've been 24 transferring 911 calls over to us that come into their 911 25 system, and when they get transferred over to us, they ring 11-8-10 8 1 on our regular line. When you try and answer it, it drops 2 the calls. I've got people constantly saying that it sounds 3 like our system hangs up on them every time they do it. Some 4 of it may have been operator error, but most of this -- and 5 this is, you know, 10 or 15 different complaints a day. I 6 don't know what to do. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's unacceptable. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Totally. That's why I'm 9 bringing it to your attention. I don't know what to do. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Is it possibly a service provider 11 issue? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't know. We get 13 different answers. We get some that it's -- "Well, it's 14 their service provider," the person calling in. Or, "Well, 15 it's a computer setting; we'll change it." Or it's -- I 16 don't even know. And I'm not that technology educated, but 17 it is totally unacceptable, in my opinion, for our Sheriff's 18 Office to be that way. We never had problems in the old 19 system. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. We will continue to 21 pursue that, because it needs to be resolved. Anyone else? 22 Yes, sir. If you'll give us your name and address and tell 23 us what's on your mind. 24 MR. SIMMONS: Hi, my name is Randy Simmons. 25 Address is 136 Thunder Road, Kerrville. I'm a part of a 11-8-10 9 1 group called the Oak Initiative, which is a grass-roots 2 movement designed to help, you know, equip and mobilize and 3 help Americans get involved in their communities. One of the 4 things that we're doing, we have a local chapter. One of the 5 things that we're doing on November the 20th is hosting what 6 we're calling the Shoring Up of America's Foundations Summit. 7 And we've invited two speakers, one by the name of General 8 Jerry Boykin. General Boykin was commander of all Special 9 Forces, one of the founding members of the Delta Force. He 10 was Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Donald Rumsfeld, 11 did a tour in the CIA. The other guy we've invited is -- is 12 a former Muslim terrorist by the name of Kamal Saleem, who 13 was kind of a general in his own right on the other side. 14 MS. RACKLEY: He still is. 15 MR. SIMMONS: These guys, we're bringing them in, 16 because one of the issues we feel important about is the 17 Islamization of our nation, and so what we're trying to do is 18 help educate our community about the stealth jihad and things 19 that are happening in communities all across America. So, 20 we're bringing in these two guys as experts to help educate 21 us as a community, and so that's one item that I wanted to 22 make you aware of as Commissioners. But what -- what I'd 23 like to personally invite you to on November the 19th, we're 24 hosting a dinner banquet at Riverhill Country Club for just 25 some of our community leaders, and it's by invitation only, 11-8-10 10 1 and so I want to extend an invitation to the Commissioners. 2 Judge, you've already got yours, so I won't hand you one. 3 But I'd like to invite you to just a small gathering on 4 November the 19th at Riverhill Country Club specifically 5 designed for community leaders. So, if I may give you a copy 6 of this. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Randy, why did he get his 8 first? 9 MR. SIMMONS: Because I came to see him. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Because I was here. 12 MR. SIMMONS: I couldn't catch the rest of y'all. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a poor, poor excuse. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They've got names on them. 15 MR. SIMMONS: Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much. 17 MR. SIMMONS: Oh, may I gave you one of these? 18 Will you pass those around? 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sure. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there anyone else that wishes to 21 be heard on any matter that is not a listed agenda item? 22 Seeing no one else coming forward, we will move on. 23 Commissioner Baldwin, what do you have for us this morning? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sir, we have a long meeting, 25 and I'd like to just move forward with it. 11-8-10 11 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Same. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Nothing this morning. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Oehler? 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm not going to break that 7 deal. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, I am. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: All right. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Our war memorial. We've been doing 11 some things with that, putting some plans together in the 12 past year or so, and after receiving all of the input as to 13 the various means by which we can expand that to include some 14 new names that need to be added to that memorial, we had a 15 design concept that was circulated. It appears to be 16 acceptable to all. There haven't really been any appropriate 17 alternatives proposed. We now have some numbers on what it's 18 going to take to do that. The numbers -- we have two 19 different options. If we -- if we put new panels on either 20 side, it will require that the middle base be -- be expanded, 21 and then new panels installed, and one option would be with 22 black granite on the new panels. The other would be with the 23 gray granite as -- as the existing panels that there are now 24 on the outer sides. The options for the black granite cost 25 options range between 9,550 and 11,950. The gray granite 11-8-10 12 1 options for those gray granite panels run between 5,750 and 2 5,950. 3 The advantages and disadvantages that have been 4 reported to me, the black granite would necessarily have to 5 come from Africa. Obviously, it's higher cost. With the 6 black granite, once the names are chiseled in, they will be 7 harder to see than on the gray granite, as -- as you are able 8 to see there now. Obviously, the gray granite is -- is 9 cheaper, and it is a domestic granite. I believe it comes 10 out of Georgia, if I'm not mistaken, same place we got the 11 original gray granite from. We presently have, if my 12 recollection of the numbers are correct -- and the 13 Treasurer's here, I think; she can correct me if I'm wrong -- 14 approximately $1,500 in the account for donations. I have 15 represented to the citizens of this county that we're going 16 to make this happen. If it becomes necessary to use county 17 funds in order to honor those citizens who have made the 18 supreme sacrifice, who have a strong connection to this 19 county, we will do so. 20 My belief is that the citizens of this county will 21 respond, and they will respond promptly once they know the 22 particulars. That's my reason for putting the particulars 23 out into to clear. I appreciate the media's cooperation in 24 disseminating this information. They've been very 25 cooperative in the past, and as we now approach Veterans Day, 11-8-10 13 1 I think it's appropriate that we put this information out. I 2 thank everybody for their help and -- and their donations 3 to-date, and I look forward to working with you in the future 4 on this project. That's all I have. Let's -- you had a 5 question on that? 6 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. If you want to make a 7 donation, who do you make the donation to? Because the Hyde 8 family would like to donate $500. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Good point. The donations can be 10 made to the Kerr County Treasurer with a memo, "War Memorial 11 Fund." The Treasurer is keeping a separate segregated 12 account for that purpose. As I said, we've got approximately 13 $1,500 in the account now. When we didn't know what we were 14 going to have or how much it was going to cost, we already 15 had some folks step up. We appreciate everybody's help. 16 Thank you. Let's move on with our agenda. The first item on 17 the agenda is to consider, discuss, and take appropriate 18 action on request by the Hill Country Dispute Resolution 19 Center to renew contract with Kerr County to provide 20 mediation services in Kerr County and for funding. Mr. Ed 21 Reaves, Executive Director of the center. Good to have you 22 here with us. 23 MR. REAVES: Your Honor, Commissioners, we've been 24 providing mediation services for the citizens of Kerr County 25 since 2002, and it has grown substantially since that date. 11-8-10 14 1 Last year we did 153 cases, and had a four out of five 2 settlement rate on those cases. And this year we will have 3 -- have exceeded that amount as of tomorrow's cases. And the 4 settlement rate has actually gone up a little bit to 84 5 percent. It varies a lot from month to month. We had a 95 6 percent settlement last month, to give an idea of the impact. 7 The most important thing is that people who participate in 8 reaching their own settlements are much more satisfied in the 9 long run than if a judge, jury, or arbitrator says what the 10 outcome is going to be. That is the most important. But it 11 also saves a lot of time and anguish for the parties, and 12 cluttering the -- of the docket, and money saved for the 13 court system as well. 14 The way it works, for example, in 2009 we had 15 15 Child Protective Service cases, and those take -- both of the 16 family law judges tell me that they take five days to try. 17 And as you know, sometimes it's like -- there are so many 18 participants, it's like having more than a football team 19 in -- in a mediation. And so that's -- for those 15 cases, 20 that would be 75 days -- courtroom days. And since their 21 settlement rate's about the same as our overall, that's a 22 significant contribution to the administration of justice, 23 I'd submit. So, we would respectfully request approval of 24 the contract between our organization and Kerr County for the 25 current fiscal year. 11-8-10 15 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Contract's been reviewed by the 2 County Attorney? Essentially, it's a renewal of the existing 3 contract; is that not correct? 4 MR. HENNEKE: It has been, and it is, Judge. It's 5 the same arrangement as been operated in the past with the 6 Alternative Dispute Resolution Center. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: And these funds come from dedicated 8 funds that are set up by court costs that are paid by 9 litigants? 10 MR. HENNEKE: It's -- you're right, Your Honor. 11 There's a mechanism where we collect costs for A.D.R. 12 services, and that's why we have this contract, to be able to 13 contract with them for the services that we collect money 14 for. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And those funds are 16 available? This amount is available? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, there -- those funds are in 18 that -- in that segregated fund for that purpose. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 22 approval of the agenda item. And the contract, I assume that 23 also has me executing that on behalf of the County? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any question or discussion on the 11-8-10 16 1 motion? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just want to make a point. 3 Ed, one of my -- you have one of any favorite programs in 4 Kerrville. You relieve some of the static and room out of 5 the courtrooms in the courthouse, and I just believe that 6 people, men of integrity, can sit down and work out their own 7 issues without government getting involved, and you provide 8 that vehicle for that. And I appreciate it. 9 MR. REAVES: It's a real privilege to be able to 10 help. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question or comment on the 12 motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your 13 right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll go to 18 Item 2, a 9:10 timed item; to consider, discuss, and take 19 appropriate action to renew the Kerr County Market Days usage 20 license for 2011. Ms. Jackie Kayne, good to have you here 21 with us this morning. 22 MS. KAYNE: Judge Tinley, good morning, 23 Commissioners. I'm here requesting approval for another 24 season for Market Days in 2011, and there are really no 25 changes. There's still 10 dates that we'd like to operate, 11-8-10 17 1 that we pledge to you, as LuAnn said in her letter, the 2 commitment to maintain the standards of the market as 3 homemade and homegrown. We're always seeking to improve the 4 quality of what we do. And we've had a good year this year 5 so far. They've had slight increases over last year as far 6 as the number of participants. About the same number of 7 nonprofits, but new ones also participating. And we would 8 request your approval, and I'd be glad to answer any 9 questions. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Any questions for Ms. Kayne? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Schedule's the same as this 12 year? 13 MS. KAYNE: Yes, sir. Single dates, except Friday 14 and Saturday of Thanksgiving weekend, and Saturday and Sunday 15 on Memorial Day weekend, which still allows activities to 16 occur on Memorial Day itself, Monday. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 20 approval of the agenda item. I assume that includes 21 authorization to sign the agreement by myself on behalf of 22 the County? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, sir. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Question or discussion on the 25 motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your 11-8-10 18 1 right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Thank you, 6 Ms. Kayne. 7 MS. KAYNE: Thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll go to Item 3, which is a 9:15 9 timed item, which is to consider, discuss, and take 10 appropriate action on request from the Texas Heritage Music 11 Foundation, a 501(c)(3), to use the Union Church at no cost 12 for a fundraiser to help continuing funding for our 13 educational products. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Projects. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Projects. Thank you, sir. 16 Ms. Hudson? 17 MS. HUDSON: Hello. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Always good to see you. 19 MS. HUDSON: Kathleen Hudson. Good to see you. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you see her make an 21 entrance? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: She always does. 23 MS. HUDSON: I was told to wait outside. 24 (Laughter.) Yes. I'll make this brief. Although there's a 25 whole lot of things I'd love to tell you, but I will make it 11-8-10 19 1 brief. We are in our 22nd year of producing free educational 2 programs in Kerrville, and our huge event in September 3 already uses the Union Church for an educational panel on 4 folklore. And we would like to use the church on November 5 19th to put out a display of our educational materials, to 6 sell raffle tickets on a guitar that's been donated to us 7 from a Texas music fan in California, and to have a small 8 fundraiser. One of our goals is to include more of the 9 community. You can see on our program that a lot of 10 businesses help make our events free, and we'd just like to 11 have a smaller event where more people can be involved. So, 12 November 19th from about 5:00 to 7:00. Stop by after work 13 and know about what we're doing, and be involved if you'd 14 like to. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Have you -- have we checked 16 with Jody about those dates? 17 MS. HUDSON: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are they open? 19 MS. HUDSON: Yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Cleanup arrangements? 21 MS. HUDSON: Oh, yes. We -- we do that. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Texas Heritage Music Foundation is 23 actually affiliated with Schreiner University, is it not? 24 MS. HUDSON: No. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: There's no official affiliation? 11-8-10 20 1 MS. HUDSON: No. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. I apologize; I thought 3 there that there was. 4 MS. HUDSON: I modeled this after the University of 5 Mississippi and the Center for American Music. And with that 6 model, about five years ago I requested that the university 7 donate a location for the organization. I'm glad you asked 8 that question, because I started this by myself with a 9 wonderful small local board of directors and the help of an 10 accountant here in town in 1987. So, now we do produce free 11 programming, and much of it is on the Schreiner campus; as 12 most of you know, I happen to teach there. But our finances 13 are completely separate, and our leadership is separate. And 14 my commitment is that stories and songs make a difference in 15 the world. And we're not into producing festivals. We're 16 not into seeing how much entertainment we can provide. We 17 really want that educational aspect. So, it's been very 18 wonderful to use the Union Church for the folklore panel. 19 And this will just be a little afternoon meet-and-greet 20 fundraiser. Raffle tickets. Come by from 5:00 to 7:00. And 21 we'll leave it like we found it. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The request is for at no cost. 23 Jody, is that standard for no-profits -- for nonprofits? 24 MS. GRINSTEAD: Typically nonprofits are half 25 price, just $50. That's why we are here for at no cost for 11-8-10 21 1 them. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my feeling -- I think 3 it's a great endeavor, but I think we need to treat all 4 nonprofits the same, so I think the $50. I'm not in favor of 5 waiving the $50 fee. 6 MS. HUDSON: All right. I'm not even going to 7 mention that it's been waived in September. But we'll ask 8 somebody to cover the $50; that'll be fine. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You don't have any problem 10 with 50 bucks? 11 MS. HUDSON: I don't, personally. I have a savings 12 account. (Laughter.) 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't tap it out. 14 MS. HUDSON: Hi, Bill. Yeah, whatever y'all need 15 to do. We would love to use it, so -- okay. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm awaiting a motion. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I move that we approve 18 the part of it that they use the facility on November 19th 19 from 5:00 to 7:00, at -- at the usual nonprofit cost of 50 20 percent off. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 23 indicated. Question or discussion? All in favor of that 24 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11-8-10 22 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carries. Thank you, 4 Ms. Hudson. You got half a lump. 5 MS. HUDSON: Thank you. Hey, we're happy. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to our 9:20 timed item, 7 Item 4, to consider, discuss, take appropriate action on a 8 request from the Hill Country District Junior Livestock 9 Association to close Riverside Drive during the 2011 stock 10 show. Mr. Bauer? Mr. Reeves? 11 MR. BAUER: Morning, Your Honor, Commissioners. A 12 little over a month ago, we came before you and asked to 13 close the park during the stock show so that we could use 14 additional parking and trailer staging area. After having 15 visited with our people that do our traffic and so on, we -- 16 they've come to us and asked if there's a possibility that we 17 could close Riverside Drive from where the Arts and Crafts 18 Fair -- let me hand you these -- Arts and Crafts Fair starts 19 to the end of the property, not impeding any private 20 driveways or anything like that. This would allow us a 21 larger area to stage those trailers, and hopefully -- haven't 22 had any lately, but should it get wet, it would give us a 23 hard surface to keep these trailers and trucks up on. That's 24 what we've come to ask. It will not -- I know last time 25 there was some concern about access to the park for people 11-8-10 23 1 during the day. This would not, because we're set away from 2 that entrance, so they could still have access to walk dogs 3 or whatever, that the park would still remain closed. That 4 is our request. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's your easternmost 6 boundary you want? 7 MR. BAUER: It would be the property line -- 8 MR. REEVES: The southeast property line of the 9 show barn grounds. 10 MR. BAUER: It would be the edge of that polo -- 11 MR. REEVES: We're also concerned about pedestrian 12 traffic if we have to have any overflow parking. 13 MR. BAUER: Right. 14 MR. REEVES: So many of them are there late at 15 night or get there early in the morning. If there's no 16 traffic in that, it's just a safety factor as well, 17 gentlemen. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All right. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What's the exact date on 20 that? 21 MR. REEVES: You had to ask me that today. 22 MR. BAUER: It would be the Thursday -- we close it 23 Thursday evening, be closed Friday and Saturday, and reopen 24 Saturday evening. Is that correct? 25 MR. REEVES: No, we wouldn't need it Saturday. 11-8-10 24 1 MR. BAUER: We wouldn't need it Saturday, excuse 2 me. We'd reopen Friday evening once we're clear. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So you're not talking about 4 Thursday night -- Thursday afternoon? 5 MR. BAUER: All day Thursday. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: All day Thursday and all day 7 Friday? 8 MR. REEVES: 20th and 21st of January. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I move approval. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 12 authorize the closing of Riverside Drive from the western 13 edge of the Arts and Crafts Foundation property to the 14 eastern edge of the exhibit polo fields Thursday and 15 Friday -- those dates? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 20th and 21st. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: 20th and 21st of January, 2011. 18 MR. BAUER: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Question or discussion on 20 that motion? All in favor of that motion, signify by raising 21 your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. 11-8-10 25 1 MR. REEVES: Thank you. 2 MR. BAUER: Thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much. Let's go to 4 Item 6 right now; to consider, discuss, take appropriate 5 action to approve Maintenance Department building permanent 6 wall with door in old Environmental Health offices to create 7 office for the County Treasurer. Ms. Williams? 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. I've spoken with 9 Mr. Bollier and asked him about getting a wall built in there 10 for one office. The two existing offices that are in there 11 are rather small. One is an 8-by-10; the other one is about 12 8-by-8 1/2. He is okay with it, but he told me I had to come 13 and get permission from the Court to authorize it, because it 14 will be a permanent wall. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Permanent interior wall? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: It won't necessarily be load-bearing 18 except for the wall in the doorway. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where's the money to do this 21 project? 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Tim said it was within his budget. 23 'Cause I asked him first. I said, "What do I need to do?" 24 And he said, "Well, you got to get it approved," he said, 25 "but I've got the money." And he's not here this week; he's 11-8-10 26 1 on vacation. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have no problem, as long as 3 there's budgeted funds. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I've gone over it with him to see 5 where he wants to -- what he wants to do and where he wants 6 to do it. There's some security issues that we're trying to 7 get resolved also. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: As part of this whole process. And 10 the -- the amount to be expended was not that great. Tim 11 said he had it in his budget. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion on the 17 motion? 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor of the motion, signify 20 by raising your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let's go to 25 our 9:30 timed item, Item 5. That'll be a presentation by 11-8-10 27 1 Mr. Lewis, except I think Mr. Lewis is not able to be here 2 with us. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He's not able to be here with 4 us this morning. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll go ahead and present the agenda 6 item. Presentation by Peter Lewis regarding possible 7 additions to the new outdoor arena at the Hill Country Youth 8 Exhibit Center. Commissioner Oehler? 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I have given all the copies 10 that he provided me to each one of you to look at. We asked 11 for the charges that he would do, all the bid documents, and 12 do the design work, and -- and for this -- these two 13 projects, one of them being -- well, this is just the outdoor 14 arena. We got the other one later on down the -- anyway, it 15 shows what he's willing to do, his hourly rates and so forth, 16 as you can see in the proposal. The drawing that you have is 17 only a proposed -- kind of a restroom design for that 18 facility, being block wall and metal top, and then something 19 that's durable and not too terribly expensive to build, last 20 a long time. This is a design that they've done before. So, 21 I guess that's about all there is. He just gave the 22 schematic design price, the construction documents and the 23 construction contract administration fee that he would be 24 willing to do it for, and then the -- also the hourly rates. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, I think -- you 11-8-10 28 1 know, we've talked about this project, and I think -- I mean, 2 it's certainly worth pursuing to a point, but I'm wondering 3 if it's not premature to actually approve this and hire Peter 4 until we meet with Stock Show Association, for one group, 5 officially and get their input into it, because this would -- 6 I mean, long-term impact, again, I know is to alleviate some 7 of the space problems that the stock show has, and also, you 8 know, other usage that could be coming. I mean, I think 9 it's -- the price is reasonable, but I think we need to make 10 sure that the entities that use it support it, and probably 11 do a -- maybe a public meeting on it just to get some input. 12 And the other thing is dollars. Where are the dollars coming 13 from? I know the purpose of this is to come up with the 14 dollars, but we also, I think, have a rough idea as to -- you 15 know, within $300,000 $400,000, anyway. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I've got a closer figure than 17 that. But -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think we need to look 19 at -- I know from our discussion that we're looking at some 20 of the capital funds that were unspent from another project, 21 but I think we need to look at that fund and see exactly how 22 much is in there. I'm looking at the Auditor right now. So, 23 this will be on our next agenda, I hope, as to exactly a full 24 accounting of that capital fund and what monies are available 25 that haven't been committed to other projects. And I think 11-8-10 29 1 it's -- I'm certainly in favor of progressing, but I don't 2 know that I'm in favor of a contract to that -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't -- I'm not really 4 either. This is basically more informational than it was 5 intended for action. It's something I was asked to do, and 6 I've done it. And his estimate -- his cost estimate for a 7 turnkey project out there would be about 750,000. That would 8 include covering the entire arena. That would include 9 stands -- concession stand, -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Lighting. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- lighting, everything that 12 goes with -- with that project that'll be done for that 13 amount of money. And I think we need to pursue funding, you 14 know. We also need to have a meeting with the interested 15 parties as well, but at the same time, we need to find -- you 16 know, figure out maybe foundations we want to approach for 17 funding. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Having the -- the initial estimate 19 of the turnkey cost I think is real beneficial, because as we 20 look at whatever sources might be available for funding, that 21 gives you a benchmark to work from, and I think that's very 22 important, that you obtain that figure from him. So, I think 23 from that standpoint, it's good to get that in the clear, and 24 that way we can start getting some input, some feedback from 25 stakeholders, and also get a better idea, you know, how we're 11-8-10 30 1 going to put this thing together. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I totally agree with you. 3 This was just something that I was asked to do, and that is 4 to figure -- he made some phone calls and got some cost 5 estimates on various things. But, you know, the good thing 6 about this -- there's a lot of good things about it, I 7 believe, for the future. But this would be getting something 8 like 68,000 square feet under roof for somewhere under $15 a 9 square foot for a turnkey job. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- and we're in a little 11 bit of chicken-and-egg situation when it comes to going for 12 grants. We've got to have something to show them, but -- and 13 I presume that that first schematic design line item, that 14 would probably be enough to get that done? 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And then, too, we may -- you 16 know, we may want to poke around a little bit and -- and ask 17 if there is any interest by certain foundations in this 18 project. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or others. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, okay. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, anyway, no, I didn't 23 intend for you to vote on this today. I just -- this is 24 information only that I was asked to bring back. There it 25 is. 11-8-10 31 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe the Auditor, at the next 2 meeting, can have an agenda item about the capital account so 3 we can get a good -- give you a feel for what funds we have 4 available to proceed. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on that particular 6 agenda item, Commissioner? 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, sir. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 7, if we may. 9 Consider, discuss, take appropriate action on implementation 10 of the burn ban. I put this on the agenda. It's that time 11 of year again that we reauthorize, as it were. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 15 approval. Question or discussion? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- this is for the -- we 17 have a large audience. This enables the Commissioners Court 18 to put it on as each commissioner sees fit for the next 90 19 days. And I believe the burn barn is on in all precincts 20 right now. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You put yours on too? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Any question or discussion? All in 25 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11-8-10 32 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's move 5 to Item 9; to consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 6 to set a public hearing to vacate, abandon, and discontinue a 7 portion of Verde Creek Road on F.M. 480 to Highway 173 8 pursuant to Texas Transportation Code. Commissioner Letz, 9 you put this item on the agenda? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, sir, I put this on the 11 agenda. And Commissioner -- this is actually technically in 12 Commissioner Williams' precinct, though it's very close to my 13 precinct, but with his current workload and some other 14 projects that affect my precinct, I told him I'd kind of take 15 the lead on this one. The purpose of the agenda item today 16 is to just to put it -- set a public hearing so we can get 17 public input on doing this. The -- I've got some maps I'll 18 pass out for the Court up here, two maps that show -- one -- 19 you got one -- the area we're talking about. And the reason 20 I said a portion is that the -- a couple things have 21 happened. One property owner owns all of that property now 22 on 173 to 480 on that road, and they're the ones that are 23 requesting this, largely for security reasons, I believe. 24 We visited with TexDOT quite a bit about this, and 25 the area around the store is not covered, because that is -- 11-8-10 33 1 actually, the county doesn't own that, together with the 2 portion that the county has from an area, oh, I guess about 3 where the cemetery is, or old cemetery used to be, for the 4 Walters family, to the east to 480. We've done research back 5 in the county records in the 1972-3 time period, when the 6 current location of 480 was done, at that same time the old 7 480, which is this road, was deeded to the county by TexDOT. 8 That's kind of what it is. Just a matter of getting it on 9 the agenda, set a public hearing so we can get public input. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- what date and time do you 11 propose for the public hearing? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thirty days. 13 THE CLERK: We can do December 13th. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: December 13th at 10 o'clock. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What time? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 10 o'clock, December 13th. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make such a motion. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a motion and a second that 20 the -- the agenda matter be set for public hearing on 21 December the 13th, 2010, at 10 a.m. Question or discussion 22 on that motion? All in favor of that motion, signify by 23 raising your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11-8-10 34 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 3 Item 10, if we might; consider, discuss, take appropriate 4 action on forfeiture report for Constable, Precinct 2. I put 5 this matter back on the agenda. The forfeiture report was 6 presented prematurely at an earlier meeting. It has been 7 reviewed by the Auditor, subject to my understanding, and has 8 been determined to be appropriate and accurate, and subject 9 to approval and recommended for approval by the Court. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 13 approval of the forfeiture report. Question or discussion on 14 that motion? All in favor of that motion, signify by raising 15 your right hand. 16 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's move 20 to Item 14; consider, discuss, take appropriate action on 21 Fiscal Year 2010 Chapter 59 Asset Forfeiture Report for Kerr 22 County Sheriff's Office. Sheriff Hierholzer? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I believe you should all have 24 a copy of it. Did everybody get one? 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's not on the backup. 11-8-10 35 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have my original which I'll 2 need the Judge's signature on. You'll see at the bottom of 3 the first page is what we started out with, the 39. The 4 second page shows what our current balance is in that 5 forfeiture account, back of the -- the back of the first 6 page. And then along with the report, with the forfeiture 7 report, we also have to -- and this is in the computer -- 8 give a budget of what we would do -- what categories we would 9 spend the money on if we spent it all this year, which is 10 very unlikely. But it has to be budgeted out into the 11 categories as required. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Most of these are from drug 13 seizures? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. Most all this is either 15 from drug seizures, where we seize vehicles or cash itself, 16 or -- and then sold the vehicles or whatever. That's where 17 all that comes from. It's all under the Chapter 59. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So you have budgeted this 19 stuff, but may not expend it all on what you've budgeted for? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's very correct. We may 21 not spend any of it or whatever, but we're required to do a 22 budget showing the expenditure of it. And then next year, 23 we'll just see where it -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So if you come ask us for 25 money, we can say, "Hey, what happened to the seizure money?" 11-8-10 36 1 (Laughter.) 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There's a -- there's a little 3 portion in that law that says, no, you can't use my budget -- 4 my seizure account as -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If you wanted to use it for 6 something, you could use it. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We just might suggest it. 8 (Laughter.) 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what I was afraid of. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You could almost count on it. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, I'm sure. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, what do you want? Do we 13 just accept it? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, you just accept it. 15 And, like, on the budget part, there's no approval or 16 anything. There's not any approval of any of it; it just has 17 to be accepted. There is a place there the Judge needs to 18 sign on that one, and then we'll send that in to the state. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And you accept it, whether 20 you want to or not. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: The statute actually says that -- I 22 believe that we have audited as required by Article 59.06 of 23 the Code of Criminal Procedure. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I was up late last night 25 auditing that thing. 11-8-10 37 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I saw your light on. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. (Laughter.) 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It has been gone over and 4 worked with through the County Auditor to meet the audit 5 stuff and everything. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: For the public's edification, the 7 beginning balance was just under $40,000. With activity 8 through the year, less expenditures, the ending balance is a 9 little over 95,000. That's after the expenditures that were 10 completed during the year. The expenditures appear to be on 11 equipment. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Expenditures were about 92,000 13 or 96,000. They included some of the patrol vehicles, as you 14 recall, that we actually purchased with it. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Major items were equipment, the vast 16 majority of it. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A lot of it were equipment. 18 We had to also replace all the UPS batteries at all the radio 19 tower sites; that was 8,000. Bought two of those Tahoes with 20 it, things like that. So, it was all spent. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I move we accept the report 22 and authorize you to sign. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 25 indicated. Question or discussion on that motion? All in 11-8-10 38 1 favor of that motion, signify by raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll go to Item 15; consider, 8 discuss, take appropriate action to select a date for the 9 annual Kerr County Christmas party. Very important item. We 10 need a lot of input here. I put this on the agenda so that 11 we can start making the logistical arrangements that we need 12 to make and be ready for that event. The holiday that we 13 have previously approved by the Court, I believe, is Friday, 14 the 24th. Is that correct, Ms. Hyde? 15 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The 24th is a holiday? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. What about the 23rd? 19 Do we -- haven't we done it on Thursday? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: We've done it previously on 21 Thursday, and I think on occasion we've done it the day 22 before. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'd say the 22nd, maybe. 24 Who's going to cook this year? Buster, is it your turn? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, I did it last year. 11-8-10 39 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You did not. (Laughter.) 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, sure I did. Where 3 were you? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Cooking. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. I don't remember 6 getting paid for it, either. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it sure was good. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Oh, thank you. If y'all 9 would like for us to do it again, my wife and I, we'll -- 10 we'll do that. And -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we'll pay. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, all we ask is to 13 cover the food cost out of this deal, and that's generally 14 not a terrible lot of money. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: And the 22nd works good for you? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's a Wednesday, I 17 believe, if I'm correct. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we want the cook happy; that's 19 for sure. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I move for the 22nd of 23 December to be the day for the county Christmas dinner -- or 24 lunch, I'd say. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Luncheon. 11-8-10 40 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 22nd? 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: From 12:00 to 1:30 at the Ag 3 Barn. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Question 6 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 7 raising your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let's go to 12 Item 16, if we might; to consider, discuss, and take 13 appropriate action to approve contract with the Hunt 14 Volunteer Fire Department, Ingram Volunteer Fire Department, 15 Turtle Creek Volunteer Fire Department, and Comfort Volunteer 16 Fire Department, and allow County Judge to sign same. We had 17 some of these contracts presented to us previously. We 18 solicited trying to get the rest of them back in so that we 19 can make sure we get the worker's comp coverage put in place 20 for those that require that. We have received the contracts 21 for the departments as indicated, and they are before us. I 22 assume the County Attorney has reviewed them? Maybe not. 23 Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's our standard form, 25 which you have approved. 11-8-10 41 1 JUDGE TINLEY: It's been modified by Hunt, as I 2 recall, because of the provisions for worker's comp. They do 3 not require worker's comp coverage. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 7 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 8 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 13 Item 19; to consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 14 approve Texas Department of Transportation grant for Routine 15 Airport Maintenance Program, commonly referred to as the RAMP 16 grant, for the Kerr County/City of Kerrville Airport; to 17 authorize County Judge, County Attorney, and County Auditor 18 to execute the RAMP grant documents, and to designate the 19 Joint Airport Board, through its Airport Manager, as Kerr 20 County's authorized representative. Mr. Henneke? 21 MR. HENNEKE: Judge, I'd like to pass that item. 22 After I set it on the agenda, we were contacted by Texas 23 Department of Transportation, and in light of the interlocal 24 agreement that Kerr County has with the City of Kerrville, 25 they've reviewed that agreement, and it was their 11-8-10 42 1 direction -- and they're the ones that administer the grant. 2 It was their direction for the Airport Board, with the 3 delegation of authority from the City of Kerrville and Kerr 4 County, that the Airport Board would be the entity to execute 5 the grant document. And it's my understanding that's set on 6 their next agenda for consideration and action. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: So they came around to our way of 8 thinking? 9 MR. HENNEKE: Yes, sir. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, good. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That was easy. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 20; to consider, 13 discuss, and take appropriate action to set a time and date 14 for Entrust to make a presentation regarding employee health 15 benefits. Commissioner Baldwin? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, sir. The -- 17 y'all remember that was an insurance company that bid on our 18 health insurance last time, but it was kind of outside the 19 mainstream, and we -- our insurance folks took a couple 20 swings at them, and they weren't here to defend themselves, 21 and I just thought it would be appropriate to ask them to 22 come back and give them the opportunity to -- to rebut those 23 issues and to see -- I just keep thinking that there's 24 something out there that we need to hear and need to know 25 about that would help us with our insurance and -- and the 11-8-10 43 1 cost of it. Now, I don't think -- I'm not asking to set up 2 a -- a meeting on an off day or anything. We need to do it 3 while we're all in here and while our staff is in, et cetera. 4 So, my thinking is that we do it the next meeting, the 22nd, 5 at some time during the day, and give them 30 minutes and get 6 on down the road. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would we not be opening up 8 the door for all the others to make a presentation? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You probably can, if you 10 look at it that way. But all those other people -- all those 11 other companies that bid are under Ms. Hyde, and our 12 insurance guru takes a look at them. These folks are outside 13 of that group. They're the only ones that are outside, and 14 they're the only ones that we attempted to beat up. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Henneke, I raised an issue when 16 discussing the Entrust proposal previously as to whether or 17 not, merely because these people were a registered, 18 authorized -- or a recognized vendor from a cooperative, 19 whether they had any preferred status and were entitled to 20 any special or different consideration than those that 21 responded to the request for proposal, and my recollection 22 was that you were going to take a look at that and -- and 23 give us a response on that issue. 24 MR. HENNEKE: I've been looking at it. I haven't 25 researched to the point where I've been able to prepare a 11-8-10 44 1 written response, but it's my evaluation that, you know, as I 2 understand it, Entrust is a member of the TCPN, the 3 cooperative network. And I guess Kerr County is a member of 4 that cooperative network, and it's argued that Kerr County 5 could have gone to the cooperative network to bid for its 6 insurance program for the coming year, but Kerr County did 7 not choose to do that, and instead put out an RFP for the 8 insurance plan -- for the insurance program. While Entrust 9 is a member of TCPN, a preapproved vendor of TCPN, we haven't 10 gone through the TCPN process, and so it's my opinion that 11 Entrust is a -- a bidder for the RFP, just as every other 12 vendor has bid on the RFP, and are part of the RFP process in 13 evaluating the health insurance plans. So, if there's a 14 forum that's given to them to make a presentation, I've 15 looked at it in the Local Government Code, and it is required 16 that that opportunity be -- be provided to everybody that's 17 submitted an approved -- approved bid for consideration 18 through the request for proposal. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rob, I have a question. The -- 20 the Court -- I'm bleeding. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't bleed on me. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The Court took action -- we had 23 on the agenda, and I guess requested Human Resources to 24 contact Entrust through the TCPN process -- or actually 25 contact TCPN; they have two other providers. What beyond 11-8-10 45 1 that would we need to do to follow their process, I guess is 2 my question? 3 MR. HENNEKE: Well, it's -- I guess to make the 4 analogy in a -- in a context that the Court's more familiar 5 with, is that you have the preapproved Buy Board with the 6 State of Texas where they go ahead and they negotiate 7 contracts, and if you wanted to buy a laptop, you can -- it 8 is authorized that, rather than going out for competitive 9 bid, you can go to the Buy Board, and they have an H.P. 10 computer, certain specs, certain, you know, criteria, and 11 there's a price. And that price has been negotiated, and so 12 it is legal for Kerr County to go on and buy -- just click 13 and buy that laptop. But it's not permission for Kerr 14 County -- because H.P. has a laptop that's been preapproved 15 for sale, that doesn't mean that we can just go to 16 Hewlett-Packard directly and start negotiating for contracts 17 because, you know, they have goods for sale that are on the 18 preapproved list. So, from what I understand that the Court 19 did, is that the Court directed Human Resources to contact 20 TCPN to invite their members to apply to submit a bid for 21 proposal, to submit a bid for our health insurance RFP. And 22 Entrust, being one of the members of the TCPN, took us up on 23 that invitation and submitted a bid. 24 But we haven't gone into any kind of cooperative 25 network where there would already be a preapproved, set 11-8-10 46 1 health insurance package that we could just select that and 2 not have to worry about any kind of negotiations or 3 pre-approval or competitive bidding. And I really don't 4 understand if that would be possible, given all the 5 complexities and differences in plans and criterias and 6 everything. But I haven't gone that far into the research, 7 because we didn't go to TCPN and, you know, basically hand 8 our bidding over to their network to come up with a vendor 9 that -- that's already in their preapproved network. We 10 submitted an RFP and we've solicited bids, and we've received 11 bids from a number of individuals, and including Entrust, 12 that responded to the RFP, and are, you know, one of the 13 individuals that Human Resources is evaluating under -- under 14 the competitive bid process. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not sure that totally 16 answers it, because I guess I look at it -- if we use the Buy 17 Board to buy a computer, that doesn't preclude us from going 18 out for bids at the same time and then seeing if we're going 19 to buy it from issuing a bid or go through the Buy Board, 20 which is generally what we're doing when we buy equipment on 21 the Buy Board. We've already gone out, and maybe not done an 22 official bid, but we've gone out and canvassed the 23 marketplace, and we have a real good idea what we can get. 24 Recently we've been able to get better pricing from a local 25 car dealership than the Buy Board; therefore, we've chosen to 11-8-10 47 1 go that route. But we knew what the Buy Board was, kind of 2 like a check. So -- 3 MR. HENNEKE: But we really haven't gone through 4 the Buy Board, to use that term, that Buy Board being TCPN, 5 to get to Entrust. We just contacted them and let them know 6 for all of their vendors to know that we are bidding for 7 insurance, and if any of your vendors want to come submit a 8 bid, we'd love to have the applications, and we encourage 9 them to come participate in the competitive bid process that 10 we're initiating to contract out the health insurance plan. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, this is way too much 12 energy. Way too much energy, and I'm going to withdraw it. 13 But I'm going to make a statement, that I find it very 14 curious that there is so much opposition to inviting an 15 insurance company to come down here and present their plan 16 that possibly could save the taxpayers of this county some 17 money. 18 MR. HENNEKE: And, Commissioner, I don't have any 19 opposition. My point being that under the Local Government 20 Code, if we're going to open to it one, we have to open it to 21 all, to give everyone an opportunity to come pitch their 22 product and present their information to the Court. In all 23 fairness, that's what the code requires, that just everybody 24 have the same opportunity; whether they avail themselves of 25 it or not, to have an opportunity to present information to 11-8-10 48 1 be considered. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll withdraw it. I don't 3 want to do it at this time. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, Commissioner, in response, 5 Entrust availed themselves of the same opportunity to respond 6 to our request for proposals, and to my understanding, their 7 -- what they submitted is being given the same consideration 8 that other proposers have submitted in connection with the 9 evaluation being done by -- by our consultant in this regard. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I disagree, Judge. Only one 11 company was discussed individually at our last meeting, and 12 that was Entrust. There was no critique of the other four or 13 five companies that are being evaluated, or however many 14 there are, 'cause we weren't even told how many there are. 15 MS. RACKLEY: Your Honor, have you tried Extend 16 Health out of Salt Lake City? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Ma'am -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the -- you know, I 19 think it's a little bit odd that only one company was 20 discussed. I mean, there may be other problems with other 21 companies that were -- you know. Or, you know, I just think 22 it was odd the way it was handled, if it's going to be 23 handled under the same process. And Mr. Looney said he 24 didn't want to deal with Entrust. So -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Entrust -- Entrust's statement in 11-8-10 49 1 their proposal is that they would not deal with consultants, 2 and as a consequence, Ms. Hyde presented her review. 3 Mr. Looney will present what he deems to be the relative 4 merits and demerits of the other proposers come -- come our 5 meeting of presumably the 15th that we still have to nail 6 down from a time standpoint. So, those -- those will be 7 evaluated. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess what this, in my mind, 9 brings up is that we need to really look at how we bid 10 insurance, and as soon as we get through this process, we're 11 going to go back, in my mind, and look at this whole process, 12 because it's -- it doesn't seem to be a level playing field, 13 in my opinion. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a really complex 15 matter. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a complex matter, but I 17 think that it's just -- I mean, I think the bid, the way it 18 was presented originally, I think I have a question about the 19 fact that they were told they had to bid on our current plan, 20 which some companies did, and Entrust is one that submitted a 21 bid that didn't do it. But that was a bid requirement. So, 22 we have a company that refused to -- you know, to follow the 23 RFP, which -- for good reason. We don't even want our 24 current plan. And, I mean, I think the analysis that whoever 25 -- you know, that our consultant had a large part of that, of 11-8-10 50 1 designing the RPF process, or RFQ, I've got a problem with 2 that. I think we really need to look at how we're doing our 3 insurance bidding, because our costs are high. And I just -- 4 you know, seems like road blocks have been thrown up. So -- 5 but our process is too late to change right now. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I guess my question is, how 7 do we get around that and -- and do something different this 8 late in the game? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm saying it's too late. We 10 can't change it this time around, but we can look at it for 11 next year, and look at -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I mean, I'm all for trying to 13 figure out a way to save some money on the health insurance 14 plan, but at the same time, we need to -- we need to follow 15 whatever RFP that we decide to go out for. When we decide 16 just to negotiate with somebody without having an RFP, I'm 17 not sure that's legal. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it certainly is -- is 19 not legal if you put the RFP out and people respond to it, 20 and then you treat one other company differently than what 21 you anticipated doing under the RFP. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, we do it every 23 time we buy a truck. Everything we can, we look at. We put 24 bids out, see who gives us the best price, and we can look at 25 the Buy Board as a backup. I don't see this as any 11-8-10 51 1 different. But -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the County Attorney's 3 review, we -- there was not a prenegotiated approved process 4 and price obtained by the cooperative in this particular 5 case, as is done in Buy Board situations. Now, granted, for 6 this type of product or service, it would be difficult to do, 7 because circumstances are different. But the difference is 8 that -- that it's not been through a careful vetting process, 9 reviewing terms of specs, price, and so forth. So -- 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, what -- let me see if I 11 can get a handle on this. What you -- you and Buster are 12 believing, and what you think could be the case, is that we 13 could just automatically go to Entrust, because they're in 14 the Buy Board thing, and negotiate directly with them for 15 whatever we could get, based on how much money we have to 16 spend, or what we wanted for our insurance plan, and pick and 17 choose the parts that we want without -- without putting out 18 an RFP? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's why I asked the County 20 Attorney to look into it. I don't know if we can do it, but 21 I do know that Entrust, it appears to me, is -- was the only 22 company that was discussed individually at the last meeting. 23 That's what's I know. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I think the reason for 25 that was -- from what I got out of it, was there was some -- 11-8-10 52 1 there were some documents that were not signed that were 2 supposed to be signed, but based -- that the RFP was based 3 on; that they had not completed some of the -- they hadn't 4 colored in the boxes, or they hadn't signed some documents 5 that would put them even with everybody else. That's what I 6 got out of it. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's my sense of it. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We beat that one up pretty 9 good? Let's go to Item 21. Consider, discuss, take 10 appropriate action to reappoint Precinct 2 Commissioner 11 Williams to the AACOG Board of Directors for a new term to 12 expire December 31, 2012, and to forward appropriate 13 notification to AACOG. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. You don't 17 have the opportunity to decline, Commissioner. (Laughter.) 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll do it again. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Any question or discussion on the 20 motion? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, it's with great 22 pleasure and an honor to third that motion. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I would note that Commissioner 24 Williams has gotten himself in a position of longstanding and 25 considerable strength down there with the Board of Directors. 11-8-10 53 1 I believe he's currently on the Executive Committee also, and 2 very much in tune with -- with the AACOG processes and 3 procedures. The good news is, they pass out a lot of money 4 down there. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Millions and millions. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: And anything we can do to get a leg 7 up on that, I'm all for it. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Me too. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Other question or discussion? All 10 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's now 15 move to Item 22 on the addendum; to consider, discuss, take 16 appropriate action to approve proposal for fee from architect 17 Peter Lewis for his work on new courthouse annex in Ingram. 18 Commissioner Oehler again. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, this is another one of 20 those things I was asked to do, and I met with Peter to 21 discuss his fees for putting together a proposal for a new 22 building for J.P. 4, and also the Tax Assessor/Collector in 23 Ingram. That office is being used more and more all the 24 time. We've been in a rent space for a long time, and, you 25 know, if there's any way possible, I'd like for us to get out 11-8-10 54 1 of the rent space and move into a reasonable space that would 2 be nothing more than a metal building. And -- and between -- 3 actually, I met with him, and his first scope was much 4 greater than what I thought it should be. His price was a 5 lot -- his price was about the same for doing the entire 6 project at the -- on the outdoor arena, and so I said, you 7 know, that's just a little bit strong for designing a slab 8 and a metal building, but somewhat in the neighborhood of, I 9 think, around 30 by 60. And so he went back and -- and redid 10 it based on a conversation I had with him that if he would do 11 the floor plan, design the slab, and see that the shell got 12 put up, that between myself, working for nothing, and using 13 some recycled materials, along with probably some community 14 service, and our Maintenance Department could finish the 15 inside to keep costs down. 16 And I will -- you know, I'm willing to -- to 17 dedicate my time to do just that. And I think we can make 18 the inside of that building look -- if we can find money to 19 build it, look more of the old Hill Country style and be 20 something that everybody would like and be very useful, and 21 they'd finally have some space that they should have for a 22 courtroom and things that they don't have now, that I think 23 we're kind of supposed to have for the J.P.'s. And that 24 office is used a lot. There are a lot of title transactions; 25 there are lots of -- of taxes paid out there. It's a 11-8-10 55 1 convenience to the people in the west end of the county. It 2 also limits the number of people that have to come all the 3 way in here. And, of course, Ingram Fire Department has 4 agreed they would sell us a very small piece of land to do 5 this on, and we'd also be able to tie on city sewer. But, 6 anyway, this is Peter's proposal for his charges to do just 7 what -- what I've outlined. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you say that they were 9 the same as the outdoor arena? Is that -- 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, that's what they were 11 originally, but the new ones are not, his new charges. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's in this same packet. It's 13 in there, the second -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In here? Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Further back. About 20,000. 16 My comments are the same as for the other one. I think we 17 need to look at our capital fund, see what money we have 18 available, and then, you know, kind of go over that and see 19 where we think the -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What are the charges 21 proposed? 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They're right here on this. 23 I think I gave you a copy. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're in the -- in that other 25 packet from Peter Lewis. 11-8-10 56 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You have two packets from 2 Peter Lewis. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think I gave you copies of 5 all of it. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. I didn't know they 7 were together. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The schematic design is 9 4,500, the construction document 7,500, and the construction 10 contract administration would be 2,500; total of 14,500. 11 That's what he had deemed to be the reasonable cost for his 12 services to do that. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: What's the estimated total cost 14 of -- 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do not have one. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that portion of the project? 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do not have one yet. Without 18 having -- he didn't -- he didn't offer that up, because of -- 19 I guess mainly because I was agreeing that we were going to 20 finish out the inside. And so, without having -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's your estimate on cost 22 for that metal building slab? 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Oh, I think the slabs, you 24 can count on $7 a foot nowadays, just for figuring purposes. 25 Isn't that right, Judge? Somewhere in that neighborhood? 11-8-10 57 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I haven't priced that lately. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, under -- under 14,000. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the metal building? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Metal building's probably 5 going to be $5 a square foot, which would put it at -- what 6 is that, 9,000? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's our land cost going 8 to be? 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We don't know that yet. It 10 will be whatever -- you know, we'll have to have it appraised 11 in order to be fair with the fire department. We don't want 12 to -- I don't think that they can sell it for less than what 13 it's worth, and we shouldn't take it for any less than what 14 it's worth. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Like I said, I think this is a 16 good topic, good discussion point for our next meeting. When 17 we have the capital account kind of spreadsheet as to what's 18 there, we can figure out what's available. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I agree with you. Once 20 again, I just did this because I was asked to do it, and -- 21 and because I was asked to consider -- consider doing this 22 for the west end of the county. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you think it might be possible 24 that you could get these cost estimates refined a little bit 25 better? And, of course, we need to see what the appraisal's 11-8-10 58 1 going to run on the land, of course, to bring that in also. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: One of the things I'd like to 3 do, if we can get that building funded somehow or another, is 4 to go out on what's now Lower Reservation Road and take -- 5 have community service take down the old teachers' quarters 6 that were part of the Reservation School, which has been 7 closed for many years; it was only open till 1929. And -- 8 and recycle the lumber in it to be used in the interior of 9 this new building in Ingram. Of course, I have all the 10 equipment to process that with and make it -- make it nice 11 for the inside of a building. And I just know that what we 12 get on commercial buildings nowadays are not real attractive, 13 and in some cases not real durable. This will be. And 14 especially can't beat the price. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Cannot. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on that item, 18 gentlemen? Rather than wait until 10:30 to take our normal 19 recess, we're going to take it now so that we can come back 20 at 10:30, go to our timed item, and we will crank up on that 21 item when we come back. We'll be in recess till 10:30. 22 (Recess taken from 10:15 a.m. to 10:33 a.m.) 23 - - - - - - - - - - 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Excuse me; let me have your 25 attention, please. I didn't realize we had that many people 11-8-10 59 1 out in the hall. We're going to move upstairs to Courtroom 2 Number 2, District Courtroom Number 2. There should be 3 adequate seating up there. 4 (Commissioners Court moved to District Courtroom 2.) 5 - - - - - - - - - - - - 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We got everybody here now? 7 Okay, let's come back to order from our recess. The 10:30 8 item on our agenda is a presentation on the SEP-HCP South 9 Edwards Plateau Habitat Conservation Plan. I'm going to let 10 Commissioner Letz introduce that. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To start with, I'd like to, you 12 know, thank everybody for showing up, but I think one of the 13 quickest ways to get a large group to show up is to talk 14 about property rights in Kerr County. I'd also like to thank 15 Charly Seale. Charly's one of the ones that sent out one of 16 the first e-mails on this topic, and while I -- I didn't 17 really expect it to -- his e-mail to come out when it did, 18 I'm glad it did. It needed -- this whole issue needs to be 19 discussed, and also it's critical to the property owners in 20 Kerr County that their input be heard. That being said, real 21 quickly as to how I got involved, I think most of you know 22 that I'm probably about as strong a property rights advocate 23 as there is. I got asked -- or nominated to the C.A.C., 24 which is Citizens Advisory Committee, of the Southern Edwards 25 Plateau Habitat Conservation Plan by some private landowners 11-8-10 60 1 in Kerr and Kendall County. I didn't know what H.C.P. was 2 when I first got nominated. Not sure I know a whole lot more 3 about it now -- I shouldn't say that; I know a whole lot more 4 about it now. 5 The -- and I got nominated for the very reason I 6 think everyone's here, is because it's a process under -- 7 with the -- under the Endangered Species Act. As soon as 8 you -- whenever you get into the Endangered Species Act, you 9 start talking about private property rights. And the people 10 that nominated me were very concerned about the process, and 11 they wanted somebody at the table as this plan is being 12 written who would support private property rights. When I 13 first went to the first meeting, there was one person in the 14 room I knew, and that person ended up being my co-chair, one 15 way or another, and his name is Kirby Brown. For those that 16 don't know Kirby, he's with the Texas Wildlife Association. 17 And for those that aren't familiar with that organization, 18 there's basically -- at the legislative or statewide level, 19 there's three groups that really fight for property rights 20 when things are before the Legislature; either the Farm 21 Bureau, Texas Southwest Cattle Raisers Association, and the 22 Texas Wildlife Association. There's a lot of other groups 23 that do it, but those are groups that really focus on it. 24 And if it's detrimental to property rights, those three 25 groups are generally going to be opposed to it one way or 11-8-10 61 1 another. 2 Kirby and I met; we saw each other at the meeting, 3 and we felt that it was probably in the best interest of 4 private property rights for he and I to agree to be chair. 5 The other option was to have someone with a lot more -- I'd 6 say an environmental slant would be chair. So we chose this, 7 and we did co-chairs because of the time commitment involved. 8 And it is a whole lot more -- Kirby said I didn't know what I 9 was getting myself into, and he was right. This has come 10 into two to three meetings a month. This process -- I don't 11 want to get into -- I'm not sure; Kirby's going to give most 12 of the presentation about the H.C.P., because he's really 13 more familiar with it than I am, but the process where we are 14 right now is there's an applicant. The applicant in this 15 case is Bexar County. That plan is approved by Fish and 16 Wildlife Service. Kerr County Commissioners Court really has 17 nothing to do with it more than any other entity or private 18 citizen would have. The only thing that we really have the 19 ability to do is pass a resolution, if this Court chooses, at 20 some point, with a comment about the plan. 21 The plan is being written right now. It has not 22 been written; it's not even -- there's not even a -- there's 23 a first draft. There's a preliminary first draft. The 24 preliminary first draft has not been written yet. So, it's 25 great that we have the public interest, but there's not a 11-8-10 62 1 whole lot really to shoot at yet. We have time for that. 2 And I say "shoot at" a little bit, you know, tongue-in-cheek. 3 Hopefully, the plan will not be overly, I guess, detrimental 4 to property rights. Hopefully it'll be a positive thing, or 5 could be a positive thing. Whether or not I support it, I 6 won't know till I see the final draft. It could be something 7 that is workable, and it could be something that will be 8 terrible. It just depends on where the plan ends up. 9 There's 21 people on the group that write the plan. The plan 10 then goes to Bexar County. They can change it, and then it 11 gets submitted to Fish and Wildlife Service. During that 12 process with the Fish and Wildlife Service, it gets posted on 13 the Federal Register, and they are required to have several 14 meetings. We are -- I think we're going to probably try to 15 have one of those -- I'm pretty sure we're going to try to 16 have one of those in Kerr County. And that will be, you 17 know, a year or so down the road from where we are now. 18 So, that's kind of how I got involved, mainly to 19 protect your interest. I'm -- I understand the Endangered 20 Species Act. This has been a big thorn in the side of my 21 family, and as to many of y'all. Most of y'all know that I'm 22 a rancher, and we have a lot of habitat on our property, and 23 we've had to adjust our operations to comply with the law. 24 And that's the only reason I'm involved, is to protect 25 private property rights. Let me turn it over to Kirby Brown. 11-8-10 63 1 You know, Kirby understands the process probably more than I 2 do, and go from there. 3 MR. BROWN: Who do I hand these to? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Me. 5 MR. BROWN: Oh, good. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is it? 7 MR. BROWN: Piece of paper. Don't worry about it. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do I throw it away? 9 MR. BROWN: You can as far as I'm concerned. It's 10 stuff that's off of a web site there. And let me just start 11 out. My name is Kirby Brown. I'm vice president for public 12 policy at Texas Wildlife Association. Texas Wildlife 13 Association is a member-based organization. Our members are 14 primarily landowners, and they're landowners who own almost 15 40 million acres in Texas, so we're well-landed. We were 16 formed around property rights. Our major growth came during 17 the early '90's, when the endangered species issue, as you 18 recall, was at the heighth of concern to private landowners 19 in Texas, and especially central Texas. And most of our 20 members still are in central Texas. 21 I was tasked by our board to look into this H.C.P. 22 by Bexar County. I was asked then by our board to 23 participate in the H.C.P., knowing full well how much time 24 this was going to take, 'cause most of what I do is overtime 25 beyond my regular day job for the organization, because the 11-8-10 64 1 meetings do occur mostly at night, and other -- other times. 2 I've got lots to do for them, so it's tough. Let me just say 3 that T.W.A. is about rural Texas values and rural 4 communities. We're about private property rights. We're 5 about pragmatic approaches to conservation, because in Texas, 6 95 percent of land is private land, so if you're going to do 7 something, you do it with a private landowner. And so we do 8 not think the current act is friendly in that way, and I was 9 asked to watch over this process. And I was glad 10 Commissioner Letz was there. 11 The Southern Edwards Plateau H.C.P., for 12 background, allows Bexar County and the city of San Antonio 13 to obtain a permit from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to 14 establish a local, controlled, simplified -- or at least more 15 simplified to those who have to do it, and a much more speedy 16 process for landowners, but primarily developers complying 17 with the Endangered Species Act. The Southern Edwards 18 Plateau H.C.P. creates a coordinated regional conservation 19 program to protect endangered species: golden-cheeked 20 warblers, black-capped vireos, endangered karst, little cave 21 bugs, and also other sensitive natural resources in south 22 central Texas. The area includes Bexar, Medina, Bandera, 23 Kerr, Kendall, Blanco, and Comal Counties, so it is a large 24 area. 25 This is the first H.C.P. we, as T.W.A., have 11-8-10 65 1 actually participated in, because the others have been 2 basically one-county areas, and those have been Travis 3 County, Williams County, Hays County, and Comal County that 4 have completed their plans at this point. All of them had 5 the same issue; the golden-checked warbler, primarily, and 6 the karst species. I co-chair the H.C.P. committee with 7 Commissioner Letz. It's the Citizens Advisory Committee. 8 It's led by a group of people who were selected by Bexar 9 County who submitted their name. Under state law -- and this 10 is a law that we helped pass in 1997 under T.W.A. Director, 11 our present Comptroller, Susan Combs. It requires one-third 12 of the members in any H.C.P. to be private landowners. So, 13 in this case, we actually have more private landowner 14 representation at the table, since Commissioner Letz is 15 actually the government, and we have another private 16 landowner that's not in there. 17 Now, how'd you get here? Just a little background. 18 The conflicts between endangered species issues and land 19 development in San Antonio, as you're aware, have intensified 20 over the last few years. It's threatened development in the 21 northwest section. It's also threatened the future of Camp 22 Bullis in northwestern Bexar County. Developers in San 23 Antonio and Bexar County spend time and money in trying to 24 get permitting from Fish and Wildlife Service to build in 25 endangered species habitat, primarily golden-cheeked warbler 11-8-10 66 1 habitat. Permits take 12 to 24 months or even longer to get 2 a permit just to build in that type of habitat, and it 3 requires expensive expertise, both legal and biological, as 4 part of that process. And you've got newly combined medical 5 units at Camp Bullis that are part of a system, and they're 6 having the same problem with the Endangered Species Act that 7 the developers are, so it's -- it's pretty -- pretty onerous 8 in terms of where it is being applied in that northern Bexar 9 County, Comal County, and you'll see it around Bandera and 10 Kendall County. 11 Compliance with the E.S.A. requires authorization 12 from Fish and Wildlife Service to take -- that's the 13 operative word -- a listed species, and it also requires 14 mitigation, by protecting nearby habitat, to offset any 15 adverse impact to the species. So, the typical process for 16 complying can take years, and can be really costly to folks 17 that are trying to do something and just be -- do it right. 18 And until recently, E.S.A. compliance by private land 19 development communities has been fairly low. Actually, local 20 enforcement with the E.S.A. by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife 21 Service, just hasn't been much taking place. But now they're 22 starting to look at this in a larger way, and especially with 23 Camp Bullis. And the threat of losing Camp Bullis and the 24 huge economic impact to the area, the endangered species 25 conservation and south central Texas became a priority to -- 11-8-10 67 1 to Bexar County and the city of San Antonio, and they're 2 looking for better ways to comply with the Endangered Species 3 Act. And, you know, what we found is that investors in 4 particular of these developments, they want to know that 5 they're doing it right; they're not going to get held up, and 6 they're not going to get anything going on that -- that 7 basically hurts their investment. So, they're trying to get 8 out in front on this, and that's what's happening. 9 So, Bexar County initiated the regional planning 10 effort to balance those communities. The participation -- 11 Commissioner Letz already -- already gave you a lot of 12 background, and I won't try and repeat some of that. Let me 13 just say participation in the SEP-HCP will be strictly 14 voluntarily for landowners. I mention that -- I don't see 15 many land owners at all participating in this. You already 16 have guidelines for golden-cheeked warblers out there in the 17 countryside that are being followed. I don't see a landowner 18 doing this. But this was recommended by landowners on the 19 Citizens Advisory Committee, that it be open to landowners 20 who may want to. It's up to them. I see this primarily for 21 development. It's for developers. It's also voluntary. 22 They can go through the current process, or they can 23 participate in this process. It's just an alternate way to 24 do things, and it's going to be much more speedy for them. 25 If they want to avoid the two- to three-year-long process 11-8-10 68 1 that they're in right now, this process is probably going to 2 take about two to three weeks, we're told, so it really 3 reduces it. 4 The cost, I don't know what the costs are going to 5 be for those developers. The participation by the 6 development community won't take place unless the costs are 7 reasonable to them, so we'll just have to see where that goes 8 and what they do. From my standpoint as a guy that's watched 9 these things over the last, basically, 20 years, and 10 particularly the last 15 -- and in Travis County, I watched 11 that one. That was a -- that was as weird as it can get, but 12 that's Travis County. We don't think these things work well 13 without landowners being at the table. You've got to have 14 landowner representation. They've got to be there, they got 15 to participate, they got to protect their interests. And 16 that's one of the reasons I'm there, is to protect the 17 interests of those landowners in those local communities. We 18 think any alternative to the existing process, though -- and 19 the H.C.P. is the only one in regulation of the law. It's 20 the only alternative that the developer has. We think any 21 alternative is preferable to what goes on right now with Fish 22 and Wildlife Service, and it gives them at least a second 23 option, and we'll just see where that goes. 24 We -- we worked in Washington D.C. during the late 25 '90's and early 2000's to change the Endangered Species Act. 11-8-10 69 1 We had visits with then Congressman Pombo. I think we had at 2 least three or four additional alternatives that would have 3 been put on the table had that passed, but that did not come 4 out of Congress, so we're still living with the same act that 5 was passed in the early '70's, and has been applied by 6 federal judges in ways that have been negative to private 7 property rights. So, that's why it's important to watch this 8 process. I appreciate everyone in here that's concerned 9 about this process. They should be. And we're -- at Texas 10 Wildlife Association, we're glad to be at the table and to 11 help represent landowners and property rights, and hopefully 12 make this something that works. We don't know where this is 13 going to go, as Commissioner Letz said. We'll just have to 14 see. And in the end, this may be something you don't do at 15 all, so we'll -- we'll just have to see where it goes. With 16 that, I'd entertain any questions. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I believe some in the 18 audience have asked to speak. Let me make a couple of 19 comments that -- just that Kirby didn't hit, or didn't hit 20 real hard. I want to make sure people understand. The 21 H.C.P. doesn't change the Endangered Species Act at all. It 22 makes a process to get a permit to do a take easier. Doesn't 23 change anything else. It doesn't affect all land. If you 24 don't have habitat for endangered species on your property, 25 it has no impact on you no matter what. Many in the room 11-8-10 70 1 probably do have habitat, and you're very much aware of where 2 that habitat is, and I can assure you the government is very 3 aware of where that habitat is. 4 One of the things that has been a little bit eye 5 opening to me is that has to be based on data, and I would 6 encourage you to look at some of this data. There are models 7 that have been out there since 2000, way before the H.C.P. 8 came into being. The Fish and Wildlife Service pretty much 9 knows exactly where the habitat is in Kerr County, and every 10 other county in the Hill Country, through the modeling that's 11 been done and through satellite imagery and things of that 12 nature. Texas A & M is doing a new study that will be 13 released sometime soon, we've been told, that will be 14 probably the most updated model, and it's going to show 15 exactly where the habitat is. They've been going out 16 ground-proofing to make sure that their model and their 17 imagery lines up to exactly where the -- the primarily 18 golden-cheeked warblers are. So, there's nothing in the plan 19 that now is going to put a bull's eye on your property and 20 say, "There's habitat here." That's already been done. It's 21 all there in the Endangered Species Act to destroy habitat. 22 This just allows a way to get a permit if you choose to. 23 Another thing that can be done is, where I think we 24 need input, agricultural use -- or use of this act can be 25 eliminated. As he said, properties are -- property owners -- 11-8-10 71 1 landowners can use it or not use it. The final application 2 for the permit will designate what types of uses are eligible 3 to be used under it. If the majority of the -- the ranching 4 community doesn't even want to be part of this thing, 5 agricultural uses can be exempted. You still would have to 6 use -- Endangered Species Act still covers your property, and 7 if you do something, then you have the two- to three-year -- 8 if you were to decide to destroy some habitat on your 9 property, you have a two- to three-year process that you have 10 to go through. You cannot use the shortcut process, but your 11 property can be exempted from agricultural. We could exempt 12 government uses, for that matter, or roads if we wanted to. 13 I doubt that will be, you know, something that, you know, we 14 would do. But those are the main thing. 15 One other point I wanted to make. I know in one of 16 the e-mails that I saw, it mentioned about taxes. There is 17 no fee, no tax, nothing on your property out of this plan or 18 out of the Endangered Species Act, period. If you choose 19 to -- if the plan gets implemented and approved, the fee is 20 if you decide to go out to your property, or if -- in 21 reality, it's going to be a developer in San Antonio goes out 22 to destroy habitat, he'll have to pay a fee to be able to 23 destroy his habitat. That's where the fee comes in. There's 24 no fee levied against the area as a whole. There's no taxing 25 authority given to anybody. So, that's kind of -- you know, 11-8-10 72 1 and what that fee will be is to be determined. I think 2 that's it. 3 I just -- my only last thing to comment would be, 4 stay involved. There will be, I'm pretty certain, a Fish and 5 Wildlife Service-hosted meeting in Kerr County. I'm guessing 6 that will be about a year to a year and a half from now. The 7 first draft is due September of 2011, I believe. I'm pretty 8 sure it's 2011, and the preliminary draft is April of 2011. 9 The other thing is, everyone has a computer, I'm sure, in 10 this room. If you go to SEP-HCP.com, it will have every bit 11 of information you want to know about this plan. You'll have 12 all the biological-type data, model information, the 13 Endangered Species Act. Kirby and I and the rest of the 14 C.A.C. have been adamant that this be a very open process; 15 anything that is reviewed is being put on that web site so 16 the public can look at it. And we're probably going -- you 17 know, more information is available on this H.C.P. than 18 possibly any other that's been done, and that's because we've 19 insisted on it. We want this information out there. We 20 don't want this to be done behind closed doors. 21 MR. BROWN: I'll just add that from the standpoint 22 of how this Citizens Advisory Committee handles itself, we 23 encourage participation by the public. All the public are 24 invited at every meeting, and they're allowed to comment at 25 every meeting, so we certainly want to hear from folks. And 11-8-10 73 1 we have about -- probably anywhere between 30 and 50 folks 2 that regularly attend that are not part of the Citizens 3 Advisory Committee giving input, which is very positive. And 4 I would encourage anyone in the room that's interested and 5 wants to sit, wants to be a part of this, to come down and 6 provide input. Any comments they have, they'd be welcome. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have any 8 questions for Mr. Brown? Thank you, sir. We do have some 9 participation forms that have been filed. Mr. Brown, if you 10 would, if you might stay handy here, there might be some 11 questions from the audience that -- that they want to throw 12 in your lap, or that we want to throw in your lap. Probably 13 the ones that they want to throw in your lap are the ones we 14 want to avoid. The first participation form was filed by 15 Ms. Barbara Bible. Is she here? If you'll come forward and 16 give us your name and address and tell us what your comments 17 or questions are. 18 MS. BIBLE: My name is Barbara Bible. My phone 19 number is 257-3225, -- I don't call myself often -- 400 20 Treasurer Hills, Kerrville. I'm not going to follow up with 21 what he said. He said things very succinctly and to the 22 point on that. I have a little bit different take on it. 23 And I've also been asked to -- in the last minute, to speak 24 about a U.N. plan, so bear with me, because it'll be a little 25 bit convoluted. As my husband says, I only speak in 11-8-10 74 1 convolute. What the South Edward Plateau Habitat 2 Conservation Plan is is a not-so-stealth takeover of the 3 private property of landowners to glorify some progressive 4 socialist bureaucrat's pipe dream. We do not need to open 5 any back door to the U.N. coming in and telling us what to do 6 with our land. 7 You mentioned about ranchers and that it shouldn't 8 interfere in some ways. Let me point out something. I was 9 born in California. I left California; I've been in Texas 10 since '79, so I'm very familiar with a lot of the liberal 11 agenda. This will affect us. Maybe not today, but down the 12 line. Cattle owners, ranchers, they have a product. Of 13 course, now, everybody says, you know, "What can cows 14 produce? We need to put a tax on cows. We need to do this, 15 that, and the other." Of course, that's all hypothetical. 16 Let's go to some real strong facts. In California, in 17 Bakersfield, it was the bread basket of California. It had 18 vegetables, fruits and nuts. No joke, real -- (Laughter.) 19 Almonds, a whole bunch. It could feed not only California, 20 but this was a United States business that fed the United 21 States. Now when you go into H.E.B. and other places, they 22 have it listed, "Product of Chile," "Product of Mexico." 23 We've given a lot of water to Mexico. It is now 24 the Rio Grande. Over there, they have a lot of our citrus. 25 A lot of our plants went -- died there in California. They 11-8-10 75 1 stopped. They destroyed Bakersfield and that whole area over 2 a small fish that got trapped for watering. They have 3 destroyed decades and decades of trees, of farmers. So, it 4 can affect us. Maybe not directly on our land, but it 5 certainly hits our pocketbook. And for the United States to 6 have to depend on Chile and other countries for our food when 7 we can grow our own food, over a small damned fish, is just 8 not right. This I see -- let me back up just a little bit. 9 I'm one of those people that see a turtle walking in the 10 street, going across a road; I stop, I get that turtle, take 11 it to somewhere safe. So, I -- I like our animals. I like 12 -- I like to protect our animals. 13 However, saying that, we do not need the U.N. to do 14 a back door into Texas, into the United States. Our 15 government has given away a lot of our national treasures, 16 making it a world treasure, where we couldn't do something to 17 our own national treasure without the U.N. giving us 18 permission to do something on our own land. And I will back 19 that up with the fact that my daughter is a captain in the 20 Marine Corps; my son-in-law is a major in the Marine Corps, 21 and they have done a combined seven -- seven duties overseas, 22 including the war. They own 25 acres behind the V.A. 23 Hospital. So, I'm not only speaking for myself, but my 24 children, my grandchildren, my husband, who's a fifth 25 generation Texan -- see, I had to get "Texan" in there 11-8-10 76 1 somewhere. But we're totally against any negative or future 2 or present government encroachment on our rights, as 3 landowners and as citizens of the United States. 4 I'm going to read this, because I did not have time 5 to prepare it. It is Agenda 21, the U.N. blueprint for 6 global transformation. It sounds good to many well-meaning 7 people. Drafted for the purpose of creating sustainable 8 societies, it has been welcomed by all nations around the 9 world. Political, cultural, and media leaders have embraced 10 its alluring visions of social justice and a healthy planet. 11 They hide the lies behind its doomsday scenarios and 12 fraudulent science. Relatively few consider the contrary 13 facts and colossal cost. You look at climate change and you 14 see Al Gore with his carbon footprint. We don't need to put 15 money in the pockets and make them millionaires and 16 everything else of people that have this grandiose design, 17 but they don't do it; they don't live it themselves. After 18 all, what could be wrong with preserving resources for the 19 next generation? Why not limit consumption and reduce energy 20 use? Why not abolish poverty and establish a global welfare 21 system to train parents, monitor intolerance, and meet all 22 our needs? Why not save the planet by trading cars for 23 bikes, an open market for self-sustaining communities, and 24 single dwellings for dense human settlements where everyone 25 would dialogue, share common ground, and be equal? 11-8-10 77 1 The answer is simple. Marxist economics has never 2 worked. Socialism produces poverty, not prosperity. 3 Collectivism creates oppression, not freedom. Trusting 4 environmental scientists who depend on government funding and 5 must produce politically useful information will lead to 6 economic and social disaster. I will do a caveat in this. I 7 have in my possession a 1998 -- it's the D.S.U.S. -- U.S.A. 8 manifesto. And it states out emphatically how the 9 progressive socialists took over -- plan to take over and did 10 take over the democratic party, and how they are promoting 11 Marxism. And this -- I'll shut up fast -- this to me is a 12 back door. It sounds good. "Oh, we need to protect this, 13 that, and the other," but we need to protect us from the -- 14 the socialists. Thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Bible. We have other 16 speakers. We'd ask that you be as brief as you can with your 17 comments so that others may exercise their privilege with 18 respect to what's in issue here today. The next 19 participation form that I have is Mr. R.E. Warren. 20 MR. WARREN: I appreciate the opportunity to speak 21 to Commissioners Court, and hopefully what I say will make 22 some sense to you people in the audience. I'm solidly 23 against the proposal by the city of San Antonio and Bexar 24 County. Seems to me it's just another attempt to run traps 25 like the golden-cheeked warbler or the snail darter. It 11-8-10 78 1 also -- when I read in this first portion of the "New Tax For 2 Species in Seven Texas Counties," it says, the Southern 3 Edwards Plateau Habitat Conservation Plan, SEP-HCP, 4 establishes fees for landowners who possibly have habitat for 5 endangered species. "Who possibly have." But that doesn't 6 let the fees go. That just makes the ability to have 7 endangered species or not. So, to me, that's -- that's kind 8 of a loophole, and somebody else getting their hand in my 9 pocket. And I got enough hands in my pocket right now, 10 believe me. (Laughter.) I'd ask that the Commissioners -- 11 Commissioners Court soundly put this tax increase and land 12 use confiscation to rest by being solidly against. Thank 13 you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Neill Wilkerson? 15 MR. WILKERSON: Morning, gentlemen. I appreciate 16 the chance to make a few comments. I'm relatively new in 17 Kerr County. I have fought for freedom for a number of 18 years, and I've gotten too acquainted with too many problems 19 of a foot getting in the door, and the door being flung 20 wide-open later on by a different bunch of people. The 21 original people may decide, "Well, we just want to do a 22 little bit. We're going to do something nice, and we're 23 going to have a bill that has a nice name on it." But then 24 the next generation comes along and they change things. Like 25 the gentleman before said, if you possibly have habitat. 11-8-10 79 1 Well, I think a golden-cheeked warbler or a black-capped 2 warbler can stop in one of my trees, so I guess I possibly 3 have one. And also if I decide to dig a hole in the ground 4 and put a pond in, I might be destroying some bug under there 5 that I haven't seen. 6 Many years ago I was in Georgetown, Texas, and they 7 were building a new elementary school, and they discovered a 8 bug when they were preparing the ground that hadn't seen the 9 light of day in generations. So, what happened? It came to 10 a halt. They had to spend thousands more to build a device 11 over this hole they put in the ground, and that became a 12 place for kids to study endangered species. I like bugs. I 13 like certain bugs and spiders in my garden, but then there's 14 some that I'll step on. And some of these protected 15 spiders -- and I just ran off a copy, nine pages of what they 16 say are -- might be covered; some that are covered, some that 17 may be covered in the future, and they're not really sure 18 what all they're going to do. And I'm not sure what they're 19 going to do either. And I'm just very concerned about what 20 they could do down the road. It sounds good from what you 21 explained and what the other gentleman explained. Sounds 22 very reasonable and helpful. But I have possible habitat. 23 Most people do have possible habitat. 24 I note in the minutes of news and events and 25 official web site, they keep talking about mitigation fees 11-8-10 80 1 are ways to fund funding requirements. So, there is going to 2 be something that comes out of our pockets. No matter 3 whether it's paid for by the federal government or the state 4 government or the local government, it comes out of our back 5 pocket, with a big slice being taken off and paying a bunch 6 of other people in the process. So, I really encourage 7 everyone to take a very hard look at this. And I would 8 encourage the Commissioners -- and I'll be back for the next 9 meetings -- to pass a resolution against imposing this on the 10 citizens of Kerr County, and Kendall and Medina and Bandera, 11 and all the other places around here. We don't need San 12 Antonio or Austin deciding issues for us. I thank you for 13 your time. And I -- I've got my first impression of the 14 Commissioners Court, and I think maybe you people are paying 15 attention, which I am very grateful for that. Thank you. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Wilkerson. Shirley 17 Rackley? 18 MS. RACKLEY: I'm going to state up front that I'm 19 opposed to SEC-HCP. The one reason I'm opposed, because it's 20 anti-Christian. God created the earth. He created the 21 plants, he created animals, and then he created man. This 22 does not protect man. Man was at the top of the protection 23 list. With this plan, man is at the bottom of the protection 24 list, and the earth -- and it's been reversed. You people 25 all said the prayer. You all profess to be Christians. I 11-8-10 81 1 want the Christian values installed in Kerr County, and I 2 want this opposed. Thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Charly Seale? 4 MR. SEALE: Kind of strange, addressing y'all 5 without a uniform on, huh? Commissioners, thank y'all very 6 much, Judge. I'm from the Exotic Wildlife Association; I am 7 their executive director, and just a brief background. We 8 were founded in 1967, one of the oldest private property 9 rights organizations in the country. And, Commissioner, I'm 10 going to correct you; there's four organizations that's 11 fighting on the national level. We spend about four trips a 12 year to D.C., and our lobbyist back there, Marita, is at the 13 state level as well, so we -- we're up there fighting for 14 these folks. What I have to say here -- and this all 15 sounds -- and, Commissioner, you and I have had a long 16 conversation about this. What sounds good on the surface is 17 a back-door way -- and you heard several people use that -- 18 it's a back-door way for the United States Fish and Wildlife 19 Service to come into our -- our country here. Because, one, 20 they don't have the statutory authority to come in and take 21 this country that they're wanting -- proposing, and they 22 don't have the resources to do that. It takes the local 23 government to come back and come in and take the land and -- 24 and let the people know what a great thing this is. 25 And, folks, we're very fortunate that we have the 11-8-10 82 1 men that we have sitting up here, because every one of these 2 -- these gentlemen are property owners, and they know what 3 we're facing here. I know that they're going to do the right 4 thing. But there's things here that I've had so many members 5 in this area that got into the -- and the prime example was 6 the Balcones -- or the Los -- the Lost Pines conservation 7 plan that had to deal with the Houston toad. Those folks 8 were bullied by the Fish and Wildlife Service, telling them 9 that they were going to use the Endangered Species Act to 10 file on them, to -- to do the things that they were going to 11 do, unless something else happened. So, they -- they jumped 12 into one of these conservation plans. They sent me numerous 13 e-mails after our alert went out to our membership telling 14 me, "Guys, don't do this." It's the worst thing they ever 15 got into. They would rather take their chances and wait the 16 time, and let Fish and Wildlife do their thing than to get 17 into one of these plans. And the fees that they're talking 18 about, those are taxes. They are taxes. Any way you want to 19 cut it, it's a tax. 20 Right now in Travis County, for you to develop -- 21 and they've got four different levels, $5,700 an acre all the 22 way down to $1,000 an acre, to do anything with your property 23 that you want to do. You pay that to the conservation plan, 24 the committee that goes in there, and where's that money go? 25 It funds a lot of the things that, if you, as a citizen, want 11-8-10 83 1 to come in and create this habitat for these endangered 2 species, you can use that money, or there's another way. You 3 can trade one for three. For every acre you want to develop, 4 you have to mitigate and give them 3 acres back, okay? So, 5 therein is the plan. Now, they said it's voluntary. Sure, 6 it's voluntary, but once the biological advisory team, known 7 as BAT, casts that net and draws that zone around this 8 critical habitat area, you, as a landowner, may not choose to 9 participate in this, but your land just was devalued by half 10 because you're in this critical habitat area now. Who's 11 going to buy your land from you should you choose to sell? I 12 wouldn't go buy a piece of property if I knew that it was in 13 a critical habitat area of the birds, or any animal. 14 So, Commissioners, I urge you to please look at 15 the -- the total ramifications. What sounds good on the 16 surface, Kirby, is not always what it appears to be. And 17 it's a back-door approach. And from the Exotic Wildlife 18 Association, we -- we do urge you to not participate in this 19 plan. Lee County -- during that Lost Pines takeover, Lee 20 County said no to them, "We're not going to choose to 21 participate in this." And so far, those people have still 22 got control of their own land. They're not having to -- they 23 weren't put into that zone, and even though they do have some 24 of the critical habitat, they're dealing with -- with Fish 25 and Wildlife as it comes -- as it comes up. Again, folks, 11-8-10 84 1 they don't have the statutory authority or the resources to 2 do it. So, thank you for your time. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Hey, Charly, let me ask you a 4 question, if you don't mind. How -- how would we refuse this 5 plan? 6 MR. SEALE: Just say that the County is not going 7 to participate in it, and that's all you have to do to them. 8 You just tell them, "We're not going to participate." 9 Because these -- these guys down there have too -- the Fish 10 and Wildlife Service has to depend on the local government 11 officials for this to be successful, and the participation of 12 the landowners for this to be successful. And if the 13 landowners say, "No, we're not going to do it," they're -- 14 and it's right here in the Lost Pines. It says right here in 15 big -- big capitals that the participation -- the success of 16 the county's HLP/HCP is dependent on the participation of 17 private landowners within the county. If you say no, it 18 fails. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So it's kind of like -- you 20 know, it would be another layer to subdivision rules and 21 regulations if we would -- if we chose to do that. It would 22 be part of that plan. 23 MR. SEALE: It -- anything that you do, Bruce, 24 would be part of that plan. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. So, you know, I -- go 11-8-10 85 1 ahead. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a comment. I'm not 3 sure that's right. I'm not sure it's not right. I hope you 4 are right, Charly. I'm not sure. There has to be an 5 applicant, and the applicant in this case is not Kerr County. 6 I think it's a question that I -- I don't think that I have 7 asked yet, if a county can be -- land can be included outside 8 of the jurisdiction of the applicant. That's the question. 9 And I don't know. 10 MR. SEALE: Well, it's going to affect -- it's 11 going to affect you, though, Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just saying -- I'm not 13 arguing with you. I'm just saying I don't know that if Kerr 14 County Commissioners Court passes a resolution that we do not 15 want to be in the plan, I do not know if that automatically 16 eliminates Kerr County out of the plan. I just want the 17 public to be aware that that's something I'm not positive 18 about. 19 MR. SEALE: All I can say, Lee County was a prime 20 example of that. They chose not to -- their Commissioners 21 over there chose not to participate, and they were outside 22 the plan. But once that -- once that line is drawn, you're 23 sucked into it, you know. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think it's a good 25 question, and I will ask it at the next meeting of the Fish 11-8-10 86 1 and Wildlife Service. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think it's a good question. 3 And, you know, I don't see how Bexar County, that -- how 4 we're included in that -- that group of counties, and then 5 we'd be subject to what Bexar County basically says that's 6 going to come out of that. 7 MR. SEALE: Bruce, what they're -- I mean, this 8 is -- several folks have hit on it already. They need -- 9 because of Camp Bullis and northwest development in Bexar 10 County, they need our seven counties up here, because they're 11 looking for 700,000 to 900,000 additional acres to set aside 12 as critical habitat. That's what they want to mitigate to 13 give those folks back. And, hey, I'm all for Camp Bullis. I 14 am. That is a major training ground, but that's a whole 15 issue that -- that we up here should not be involved in. I 16 mean, they need to deal with that themselves. That's -- 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Another thing that's 18 happened, too, over the course of time is when the goats left 19 this country, their habitat has gotten bigger than what it 20 once was, and I don't remember them ever being here. 21 MR. SEALE: I don't think I've ever seen one, 22 Bruce. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: To-date, I haven't seen one 24 in the wild. 25 MR. SEALE: But as Commissioner Letz and I talked 11-8-10 87 1 about the black-capped vireo, his habitat changes on a -- on 2 a regular basis, depending on the grazing and what's going on 3 with the land. He nests in a bush about 36 inches high. 4 That changes every year. So, I mean, this thing is going to 5 just keep changing. And, folks, something else is that it 6 says in here that, yeah, they're after those -- the two birds 7 and a bug. They haven't even touched the stream yet or any 8 other endangered species that they should find somewhere 9 else. So, this could go right into the tributaries for the 10 mussels. They haven't even talked about mussels and things 11 yet. So -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't bring it up. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A comment -- just more of a 14 comment, Charly, and not really a response. There were -- 15 Kirby, I don't know how many -- someone will have a list, 16 several pages of species that could have been included in the 17 plan. It was narrowed down; all those were excluded. The 18 species that are excluded out of the plan cannot be brought 19 back in after the fact without redoing a whole new plan. 20 MR. BROWN: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- and you mentioned 22 mollusks, and that's nothing to do with this plan, but 23 something that, boy, every citizen in this room needs to be 24 really watching. There is a likelihood that they're going to 25 try to list several mollusks in the Guadalupe River as 11-8-10 88 1 threatened. And, you know, it is -- you know, like I say, 2 it's nothing to do with the plan. It's just something that I 3 became aware of because I am involved with this thing. And 4 the Endangered Species Act is not dead. Unfortunately, 5 it's -- it's active. It's actively moving, and with the 6 current administration -- I shouldn't get into politics, but 7 with the current administration, it's gotten new vigor, and 8 the public needs to be very aware of that Endangered Species 9 Act, and watch the Federal Register. Watch some of those 10 elected organizations, like Exotic Wildlife Association, that 11 notify the public, because there is likely going to be an 12 attempt to list additional species in this area. That's just 13 my own personal opinion. 14 MR. SEALE: Thank you, sir. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Sergeant Seale, we thank you. 16 That's all the participation forms that I have. Are there 17 other -- are there other individuals that wish to be heard? 18 If so -- 19 MR. MORRIS: I just had -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Come forward. Give us your name and 21 address, and tell us what's on your mind, sir. 22 MR. MORRIS: My name is Frank Morris, and I live on 23 the South Fork of the Guadalupe River. And I have a ranch 24 south of here, so I'm -- I'm concerned about something like 25 this. And I had two questions of you, really, as you were 11-8-10 89 1 speaking. Number one, how do I know if any of my property 2 now has a habitat in it, around it? And, number two, is 3 there a map of Kerr County with the habitats that we can see? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The answer is, I think, yes -- 5 well, yeah -- well, there's some models out there. Are they 6 on the web site? Kirby, you better take this one. I'm 7 getting into trouble. 8 MR. BROWN: If you're interested in finding out if 9 you have habitat, go to Parks and Wildlife biologist right 10 around here. They'll -- 11 MR. MORRIS: I'm almost afraid to ask them. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. BROWN: Well, let me tell you why I suggest 14 that. Because in 1995, we helped pass a bill that provides 15 confidentiality for those Parks and Wildlife biologists. 16 It's like a lawyer-client relationship; they cannot report 17 anything on your property. Nothing, okay? Unless you report 18 it. You are the only one who reports. So, I want to make 19 you aware of that. That's in state law. So that does not, 20 however, go to federal employees, except in NRCS. Those guys 21 with the Natural Resource Conservation Service, the old 22 S.C.S., those folks also have a confidentiality agreement. 23 But you want to discuss that with the individual. The other 24 thing is, ask them not to bring anyone else along, okay? The 25 second -- 11-8-10 90 1 MR. MORRIS: Let's say I want to buy a ranch or buy 2 a piece of property. How would I check to see if it had a 3 habitat around it or something? And is that an issue? Would 4 that be a liability to somebody -- to somebody buying or 5 selling under the laws today? 6 MR. BROWN: Well, it depends. 7 MR. MORRIS: I never thought of that before. 8 MR. BROWN: But it could be a liability if you plan 9 to build on it, develop it. If it's habitat that exists 10 today, and you don't plan to really go in and do much, other 11 than just normal cattle management, deer management on those 12 places, there are management guidelines that exist that are 13 followed by basically all of those folks that would help you 14 out there to do that. So, those management guidelines allow 15 those agricultural operations to take place. 16 MR. MORRIS: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I might follow -- I know A & M 18 is going to re -- the models that I referred to, they're 19 models. They're not the gospel, any of them. There's, I 20 don't know, three, four, five models out there. A & M's will 21 be public, will it not, Kirby, when it comes out? 22 MR. BROWN: No. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No? 24 MR. BROWN: And let me explain that. Because -- 25 because when A & M -- information is going to be public. 11-8-10 91 1 What they're looking at from an acreage standpoint, that will 2 all be public. But we really don't want any published maps 3 of where these things are, and I don't think you want those 4 published, and that was part of the reason. We prefer that 5 those lands not be targeted. And so -- so from that 6 standpoint, we prefer that that just, you know, stay behind 7 the scenes, and -- 8 MR. MORRIS: If you're just buying some land, that 9 makes you a little nervous, doesn't it? 10 MR. BROWN: Well, I would recommend you get 11 somebody to look at it if you're going to buy it. I know 12 quite a few people that will help you, though. Okay? 13 MR. MORRIS: Thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Morris. Anyone else 15 wish to be heard on this issue? Ms. Tuma? Give your name 16 and -- 17 MS. TUMA: Amy Tuma. I run Hatari Safari Wildlife 18 Incorporated Animal Shelter. Part of my corporate purpose is 19 to tell the public about exotic and endangered animals, and I 20 want to make sure the Commissioners know when we're talking 21 about exotic and endangered animals, we're not talking about 22 just bugs, like Charly said. Scimitar-horned oryx, addax, 23 Dama gazelles, axis deer, and blackbuck were just listed on 24 Species List Number 2. If you want to hunt these animals on 25 your property, U.S. Fish and Wildlife considers you an 11-8-10 92 1 endangered habitat. So, you need to think about that. 2 Sorry, I get a little -- whoo, got so much going up here. If 3 you want to make your land able to hunt axis deer and 4 blackbuck, and next year they decide there's not enough 5 blackbuck and axis in India, the United States can list them 6 as an endangered animal, so any time you have axis deer on 7 your property, you now have endangered habitat on your land. 8 And I think that's a big thing, because we have more of those 9 animals in Kerr County than they do over there, so how many 10 people are going to have endangered habitat when axis deer 11 get listed? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Tuma. Anyone else? 13 Yes, sir? Come forward; give your name and address and tell 14 us what's on your mind. 15 MR. SCHREINER: My name's Charlie Schreiner from 16 Y.O. Ranch. I wasn't going to say anything, but I've got a 17 couple questions about it that I don't think have been 18 answered yet. When this land gets -- a developer somewhere, 19 quote, you know, mitigates, and he provides funds for Fish 20 and Wildlife to go buy some acreage somewhere, does that land 21 then become tax-exempt from ad valorem taxes? You know, 22 Charly Seale's talking about 700,000 acres up here in the 23 Hill Country. I think we'd be probably -- I think we'd 24 probably all go bust if that went -- 25 MR. BROWN: Well, I don't -- 11-8-10 93 1 MR. SCHREINER: -- off the tax rolls. 2 MR. BROWN: I don't -- I didn't see that kind of 3 number coming from anywhere. Looked like about a tenth of 4 that. That may be considered at the high end. 5 MR. SCHREINER: 100,000? 6 MR. BROWN: It would be less than 100,000. 7 MR. SCHREINER: 70,000? 8 MR. BROWN: That's still a lot of -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's over the amount -- the 10 amount that they're looking at trying to get protected is 11 somewhere in that neighborhood, you know, 70,000 to 100,000 12 over the seven counties. 13 MR. SCHREINER: Yeah. But, I mean, could it all -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It could all in be in Kerr 15 County. Probably would not be in Kerr County. 16 MR. SCHREINER: If you had to find one big place, 17 you don't know why it couldn't be in one county? 18 MR. BROWN: Could be. 19 MR. SCHREINER: And is that tax-exempt? 20 MR. BROWN: It would depend on how the Citizens 21 Advisory Committee finally works with the city and the -- and 22 the county on some stuff. You know, my feeling -- and this 23 is just my feeling. The current mood of the advisory 24 committee is that most of that would be done not in fee 25 simple; they'd look at some other means. That's what they're 11-8-10 94 1 looking at right now. 2 MR. SCHREINER: I see. 3 MR. BROWN: And what are those, and how are they 4 going to do that? Same thing on the fee structure. If they 5 do something, your fee structure has to be simple enough and 6 reasonable enough to where a developer would want to do that. 7 MR. SCHREINER: Right. 8 MR. BROWN: Otherwise, they'll just stay in their 9 existing process. So, you know, you've got way too many 10 things at this point. We're still two years out, you know, 11 to understand it all. 12 MR. SCHREINER: Okay. Secondly, what's the 13 definition of, quote, "development"? 14 MR. BROWN: That's -- 15 MR. SCHREINER: 5 acres? 10 acres? 2 acres? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's -- 17 MR. SCHREINER: Half acre? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's destruction of 19 habitat. And that's -- you -- if you're destroying habitat. 20 Development's not really the issue. The issue is destroying 21 habitat. 22 MR. BROWN: It's just so those investors that are 23 behind development in areas that have habitat, they're, like, 24 "Wait a minute, I want to make sure my investment is safe 25 here." So that's where they're coming from. 11-8-10 95 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think generally when people 2 say "development," they're thinking of an individual person 3 coming in and putting in a sub -- residential subdivision or 4 a commercial subdivision of some sort. That's generally -- 5 but I don't think it's really a size limit. It's more -- 6 MR. SCHREINER: We have -- well, ours up here, it's 7 anywhere from 2 acres to 150 acres. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9 MR. BROWN: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 MR. SCHREINER: So we don't know if this one is 12 just destruction of habitat, period. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's -- 14 MR. SCHREINER: Knocking down one tree qualify? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, Endangered Species Act, 16 it's not the plan. It's the -- you know, I think that most 17 ranchers are familiar with -- in this area, anyway, are 18 familiar with the Endangered Species Act. They know -- you 19 know, they're not going to go and intentionally destroy 20 habitat, but they're not going to call every time they put up 21 a new deer blind. So, I mean, I think it's -- there's a -- 22 you know, that's how we look at it from our family standpoint 23 in our operation, and I think that's probably the common way 24 to do it. You know, I think that the -- you know, I would 25 not go in on our property and say, "Okay, there is probably 11-8-10 96 1 pretty good habitat here. Let's go bulldoze it all." You 2 know, I think that would be a -- a risk that our family would 3 not be willing to take. 4 MR. SCHREINER: Some people do that. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They may, but that's the risk 6 they choose to take. I choose not to take that risk. 7 MR. SCHREINER: And that happened over there in, 8 you know, Travis County. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 10 MR. SCHREINER: Okay, thanks. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Schreiner. Anyone 12 else? Your last chance. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Commissioner Letz? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kind of a closing comment. I 16 think -- I think that this will certainly come back before 17 the Commissioners Court at some point. I'll bring it back 18 for a resolution of some sort. But I think it's -- the 19 timing is likely to be, you know, about a year from now, 20 because until there's a plan to do a resolution on, a 21 resolution is somewhat meaningless. It has to be -- wait 22 until there's some something to look at, and at this point, I 23 don't think -- certainly, Kirby and I don't know what that 24 plan is going to look like. It's possible that the -- you 25 know, there may be a plan come out of the C.A.C. that, you 11-8-10 97 1 know, I support and the Court may support, and that could get 2 changed by the applicant and be something we don't support. 3 So, I think it's not something that, you know, you can just 4 rest on your laurels and say, okay, we're against it one 5 time, and then be quiet. You have to watch it through the 6 whole process until it's finally, really, posted in the 7 Federal Register at this point, and even then you really need 8 to keep on commenting to the Fish and Wildlife Service. So, 9 it's kind of a -- this is a little bit earlier informational 10 type meeting than I really envisioned, but it certainly is -- 11 you know, you can never be too early, because it's something 12 everyone needs to be aware of. Bruce? 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The one thing -- the one 14 point I guess I want to make is kind of the old Ingram 15 approach; the old common sense method is what I call it. You 16 know, we've been told for years that cedar sucks up all of 17 our water, and cedar is one of the habitats, I believe, for 18 one of those little -- whatever kind of birds they are, the 19 vireo or the warbler -- I guess it's the warbler. 20 MR. BROWN: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So it seems to me that that's 22 kind of counterproductive, and we're taking water away from 23 humans and having a tree for a bird to live in. That's 24 just -- doesn't make sense. You know, because our water 25 resources are starting to get more critical all the time, and 11-8-10 98 1 as we grow, we're going to need more water. I think that's 2 one of the big incentives to clear cedar. So, here we go; 3 we're going -- we're not going to clear cedar, but we're 4 going to save a little bird. That, to me, makes no sense. 5 And I think that's a really good point to make with -- about 6 the federal government saying, you know, here you have 7 subsidized the clearing of cedar for years, and now you want 8 to tell us we can't, to save a bird. So, I think that's just 9 one -- one basic point that could be made. 10 And I made one a while ago that, you know, since 11 the goats left this country -- this used to be the mohair 12 capital of North America some years ago, and when the goats 13 left, the little cedars came back, and now they've grown into 14 bigger cedars. Now we have a bigger problem and a bigger 15 habitat area than we had 30 years ago, and so we've -- we've 16 basically created our own problem. You know, goats just 17 didn't have much -- they were a real important part of this 18 part of Texas for a long time, and they were an income 19 producer for the ranchers, but mohair didn't seem to be as 20 important any more as it once was, and subsidies died, and so 21 now we have created ourselves a bigger problem. That -- 22 that's just happened, kind of over an evolutionary time. 23 Anyway, that's all I have. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Maybe we need have to every 25 landowner go up and gather up a few goats. 11-8-10 99 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, maybe we ought to have 2 a few more goats of some kind. They don't have to have hair; 3 you don't have to shear them. Just have something. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other member of the Court have 5 anything further? Let's move to our 11 o'clock -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wait. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have something? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have some comments to 10 make? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just one. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sure there's a lot yet 14 to be learned, but I read a document that says Bexar County 15 and the city of San Antonio have been doing regional 16 planning, which includes Kerr County. That's enough for me. 17 (Laughter.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Good point, Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner Letz said 20 something about we may not be able to vote until -- for about 21 another year. I propose that we put this thing on the agenda 22 every month and say no, from now on. (Applause.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's go ahead and finish up 24 our agenda. We have an 11 o'clock timed item; Item 11, to 25 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to award a 11-8-10 100 1 contract for administration services to Grantworks for 2 support services, Colonias Construction Fund Contract Number 3 710065. Commissioner Williams? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, we got a lot of 5 Grantworks folks in the audience here to participate and step 6 us through all these items. And so we're going to start by 7 turning it over to -- Regan? Whomever. 8 MS. LENEHAN: Well, this is the one that you can't 9 turn over to me, 'cause I can't -- I can't ask you to hire 10 us. So, the County has to make a decision about hiring us on 11 the O.S.S.F. grant. And you had a committee, I think, that 12 you appointed to -- you received proposals during an RFP. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We did. 14 MS. LENEHAN: I believe you only received one. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We only received one 16 proposal -- proposal to our RFP; that was Grantworks. And 17 the other five did not respond. And the recommendation of 18 the selection committee was -- would be Grantworks. Our 19 understanding is we don't have to score that. 20 MS. LENEHAN: Right, 'cause you only received the 21 one proposal. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So we're in a position to 23 take -- I make a motion to accept Grantworks as the 24 administrative services provider for Colonias Construction 25 Fund Contract 710065. 11-8-10 101 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a motion and a second as 3 indicated. Is there any further question or discussion on 4 the motion? All in favor of that motion, signify by raising 5 your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll move 10 to our 11:05 timed item, Number 12; to consider, discuss, 11 take appropriate action to approve various resolutions and 12 opportunity plan and H.U.D. certification of exemption in 13 connection with Texas Community Development Block Grant 14 Contract Number 710065. Commissioner Williams? 15 MS. LENEHAN: These I can help you with, now that 16 we're hired. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. You're on. 18 MS. LENEHAN: The -- the resolutions that we have 19 are to appoint the county officers who are able to sign off 20 on grant paperwork, and that's the first one. That's the 21 signatory resolution. And the next resolution is the Section 22 3 resolution, which is a policy that promotes the hiring of 23 businesses that employ low-income persons, and also as the 24 grant -- you know, as part of the grant requirements, the 25 grant services need to -- to assist a certain percentage of 11-8-10 102 1 low-income persons. That's a requirement of the grant 2 framework. So, this is just a resolution that -- that, you 3 know, the County will attempt to provide opportunities. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Resolution says we will do 5 all of that, right? 6 MS. LENEHAN: The resolution says that you will 7 adopt a local opportunity plan as part of the grant. And -- 8 and the local opportunity plan, which refers only to the 9 grant itself, is that during the grant -- time period for the 10 grant, you'll encourage businesses that employ low-income 11 persons, like construction contractors, to apply for -- for 12 bid opportunities on a grant project. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So, what's required 14 of us today? Just -- 15 MS. LENEHAN: To pass those two resolutions. The 16 first would be the signatory resolution appointing the 17 officers for the grant forms, and the second is to pass the 18 resolution for the Section 3 plan. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do we have a document that 20 says that here? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 22 MS. LENEHAN: Yes, you do. I believe it was part 23 of your package. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, he has it. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He has it. 11-8-10 103 1 MS. LENEHAN: I thought it was part of the package. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y'all got to quit giving 3 that stuff to him. 4 MS. LENEHAN: Okay. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I have -- I have the resolutions for 6 the signatories, and also the adopted Section 3 local 7 opportunity plan. 8 MS. LENEHAN: Those -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And, of course, there is a local 10 opportunity plan adopted by the resolution, and as well as 11 the certificate of exemption for the project. 12 MS. LENEHAN: The only two that typically that need 13 to be approved technically are the resolutions, and the plan 14 relates to the resolution, and then the H.U.D. certification 15 basically is a form that's required. It's a -- you know, a 16 grant-required form that allows the administration services 17 on the project to get started before the full environmental 18 assessment is complete on the project. That just allows us 19 to come here and kind of get the ball rolling with the 20 start-up paperwork, setting up the bank accounts and those 21 sorts of things for the framework of the grant. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. I would move the -- 23 that the Court adopt the various resolutions, an opportunity 24 plan and a H.U.D. certification of exemption in connection 25 with Texas C.D.B.G. Contract Number 710065. 11-8-10 104 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 3 indicated. Question or discussion on the motion? All in 4 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let's go to 9 Item 13, which is an 11:10 timed item; to consider, discuss, 10 take appropriate action to approve resolution to amend 11 Exhibit A of the performance statement in conjunction with 12 Kerr County contract, Texas Community Development Block Grant 13 Number 728065. 14 MS. LENEHAN: So, currently the County has two 15 grant projects open. The first one that we were just 16 discussing was a brand-new grant for septic tank 17 installation, and the second grant, which the County has had 18 open since 2008, is for some new sewer lines and some 19 first-time sewer service connections. And on that project, 20 we bid out the project twice. The first time we bid it out, 21 we only received one eligible bid, so the County threw that 22 out. We rebid it in order to try to get some more 23 competition. We got four bids the second time around. We 24 awarded a contract. However, the funds still exceeded our 25 grant plus matching funds commitment, and because of that, 11-8-10 105 1 we're basically having to cut back the project a little bit 2 in order to get it complete. So, the original project had 3 three target areas we were hoping to serve, and we're going 4 to have to remove one of them in order to complete the 5 project. And so we're asking that the Commissioners Court 6 agree to submit an amendment to the State to remove that 7 third target area for the project so we can complete it 8 within the grant budget. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For the benefit of those 10 who may not be familiar, this is Kerrville South project -- 11 sewer project, Phase IV. We did conduct a public hearing for 12 anybody who had any input with respect to what we're 13 proposing in terms of contract amendments, and no one showed 14 up for that. So, I guess we approve the resolution to amend 15 Exhibit A of the performance statement in conjunction with 16 Kerr County Contract T.C.D.B.G. Number 728065. That's 17 Kerrville South, Phase IV, sewer project. 18 MS. LENEHAN: Exactly. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: That was a motion, Commissioner? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second to 24 adopt the resolution. Question or discussion? All in favor 25 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11-8-10 106 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 5 MS. LENEHAN: That's it for me. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. We appreciate it. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's it. I think 8 that's it, unless you have anything else on the agenda for 9 me, but I don't believe so. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 17, which is an 11 11:30 timed item. That'll be a presentation on MoneyLogic 12 Financial Wellness program for the benefit of county 13 employees, being a voluntary program which can increase 14 employee productivity, reduce county expenses on employee 15 benefits. Ms. Margie Jetton. 16 MS. JETTON: Hello. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Morning. 18 MS. JETTON: Yes, good morning, and I'm going to -- 19 we're going to make it as brief as possible. So many county 20 benefits are -- employee benefits in general are always for 21 purposes of future catastrophes like cancer insurance, things 22 like that. I have discovered a property that is for now. It 23 helps people now, with the economy and everything that's 24 going on, and it can save employees a considerable amount of 25 money, and also save the county money. But when I asked -- 11-8-10 107 1 where did he go? Okay, there he is. When I asked some 2 representatives of MoneyLogic to come and explain this to 3 you, I had no idea that, as personal favors, I would get the 4 owners and founders of MoneyLogic to come. So, I'm very 5 honored that they came. John Bonnet, Alan Witten, get up 6 here. Alan Witten hired me in insurance 25 years ago. These 7 are very dear friends of mine. And, anyway, I'm just going 8 to shut up, which y'all know is pretty hard for me, and I'm 9 going to let them present. Go ahead. 10 MR. BONNET: Thank you. I'm John Bonnet. I spent 11 a lot of time in Kerr County as a young boy, by the way. I 12 grew up in Eagle Pass. You know where Eagle Pass is, I know. 13 I used to go to Camp Capers out here every summer, either as 14 camper or counselor, so I spent some great years here in Kerr 15 County. Thank you for the opportunity to present MoneyLogic. 16 Let me tell you how this all came about. Some years ago, you 17 know, we looked around, and we're thinking, what is it people 18 need? Everybody talks about health and wellness and all 19 those kind of things, but what is the one thing that people 20 do need? One thing for sure they need is help with money. 21 You need to think about it. We go through elementary school 22 and junior high school and high school and college, 23 Bachelor's degree, Master's degree and a Ph.D., and they 24 barely teach us how to balance a checkbook. And that's 25 amazing to me that that's the case, when the one thing we all 11-8-10 108 1 deal with is money. I mean, makes sense. 2 So, we start looking at how -- what can we do? So 3 we did a lot of research, and found out that people really 4 were having lots of difficulties. And this was years ago, 5 before the recent economic crises came about. We found out, 6 you know, people are having money -- 70 percent of the people 7 were spending more than they were making, 40 percent of the 8 people couldn't qualify for a mortgage loan, on and on and 9 on. And it's not just the -- what we call the poorer leader. 10 It's everybody. In fact, there's a group up here that has a 11 lot of money; they call those the affluent needy, because 12 they also need help with money. So, we went out and we 13 researched, said, okay, this has now become -- there are a 14 lot of educational things out there. You can go to the 15 libraries, you can go to book stores, you can do all those 16 kind of things and learn all about what to do with money. 17 You know, you shouldn't do this, you should do that, you 18 know, all this kind of stuff. 19 However -- and then there came about the Dave 20 Ramsey -- a lot of you have heard about him. You know, he's 21 a great guy on T.V., has lots of books and radio shows and so 22 forth and so on, and Crown Ministries is in churches and 23 teaching things in churches, which is wonderful. And there's 24 a lot of other ones out there preaching about money. The 25 problem we found out was that as much as they talked about 11-8-10 109 1 it, one thing that was really left undone was the fact that 2 they talked it, they told you what to do, but left it all up 3 to the individual to do by himself without any tools. So, we 4 set about to prepare tools. By the way, I've got some 5 write-ups for y'all I'm going to pass out afterwards so you 6 can kind of review what I'm talking about, but I know Margie 7 said to make this kind of brief, so I'm kind of giving an 8 overview. 9 So, the tools -- for example, Ramsey says that the 10 biggest wishes people have today financially are, one, debt. 11 Too much debt. If you've seen studies about what's going on 12 in the individual debt -- I believe the government's got a 13 lot of debt, but so do individuals got a lot of debt. And 14 the second one is, because of that, the issue of retirement, 15 the ability to be able to retire today, now, in this state, 16 regardless of what we have through our companies or through 17 our employers. Regardless of all the money that's flowed 18 through people's hands, only 4 percent of Americans can 19 actually retire today without being dependent on the 20 government or family or charity. Now, think about that. All 21 the money that's traveled through our hands, 4 percent only 22 can retire. And so the big reason for that is they have too 23 much debt. So, for example, people tell you get out of debt 24 as fast as you can. 25 Well, I'm going tell you about a program we put 11-8-10 110 1 together called Accelerated Debt Elimination, which comes as 2 part of our package. The Accelerated Debt Elimination 3 program actually helps people get out of get faster by just 4 changing the way they're paying. They're not paying any more 5 necessarily, just changing the way that they're doing it. 6 The girl in our office, she's 52 years old. She has a 7 mortgage left of 18 years. She's got a car payment. She has 8 three credit cards that, unfortunately, she had a child that 9 had some issues and ran up a bunch of expenses she'd like to 10 get rid of. Right now, she'll be out of debt in 18 years. 11 She's 70 years old. Between now and then, she has no extra 12 money to set aside, because it's all going to debt. So, 13 using our automatic debt elimination program, which is done 14 automatically through the bank, your bank account, you don't 15 have to do anything; just say, "I want to do it," and that's 16 the end of it. Just make sure you have the money in the bank 17 account. By doing that, she'll be out of debt in six years, 18 so she's 58 years old. Now that $3,000 a month she's been 19 paying on all those debts can go towards her retirement plan, 20 okay? Think about that. Out of debt at 70, or out of debt 21 at 58? She is definitely better off being out of debt at 58, 22 I think you'd all agree. 23 The second thing we found out is that people that 24 budget and track their money -- budget and track money, where 25 the money's going, can save approximately 12 percent of their 11-8-10 111 1 annual income a year. So, somebody making $40,000 a year 2 saves $4,800. That's $400 every month they have now to put 3 into some type of retirement vehicle or other savings 4 vehicle, or to get out of debt quicker. So, we've got a way 5 to do that automatically. Now, I saw one program where they 6 say what you do is you take a big envelope. If your grocery 7 budget's $600 for the month, take six $100 bills, put it in 8 this big envelope, and you keep pulling them out till the end 9 of the month. If the end of the month comes and you have no 10 money there, you can't eat any more, you know. That's not -- 11 not that good. So -- and plus it's kind of dangerous to have 12 a lot of cash sitting around in envelopes around your house. 13 So, what we have is a program through your cell 14 phone. You can go online and you can plug in your budget. 15 The way you do that is -- is you plug the amount of money you 16 make net, after tax, then do a budget for you. It's hard to 17 sit down and budget. You adjust it by your house payment and 18 car payments, things like that. You just make adjustments 19 and work out a budget. Then every day as you spend money, 20 just go in, use a cell phone. You can text in the -- the 21 code and how much you spent. For example, I go to the 22 grocery store; I spend $60. I can, say, type in $60 for 23 groceries. The next morning my e-mail comes in and says, 24 "John, you spent $60 on groceries yesterday. You have $462 25 left on your grocery budget for the month." So, I kind of 11-8-10 112 1 track it. You do that on every item. That being the case, 2 it's amazing how much money people find they have to set 3 aside. 4 Another thing is reducing our expenses; we need to 5 reduce our expenses. Back in this little program we put 6 together, we said there's seven steps to getting yourself 7 financially in good shape. One is to reduce your expenses, 8 watch what you spend, where you spend your money, how you 9 spend the money, make -- get the best buys. They say that 10 the average person loses about 10 percent a year just on 11 overspending and where they could have bought something 12 cheaper. I don't know about you, but I've bought something 13 and thought I got a good deal on it, and somebody says, "Hey 14 I see you got something like I got," same kind of thing. 15 Yeah. I say, "Yeah, I got a really good deal on it." He 16 says, "Really?" He tells me what he paid. I go, "Oh, my 17 goodness, he beat me on shopping more wisely." And we have 18 ways to do that through our -- our MoneyLogic Rewards 19 program. 20 We've created so many other things, like the manage 21 the debt. Now, in the debt area, by the way, there are 22 people at the end of the spectrum and everywhere in between. 23 There's the person that's got plenty of money; they just like 24 to pay off things quicker. On the other end is the person 25 that's almost -- they got so much debt and so much expense, 11-8-10 113 1 they can't make ends meet, and they're about on the verge of 2 bankruptcy or whatever. They need a different kind of debt 3 counseling. So, we have debt counselors and people to help 4 people how to deal with their debt issues. By the way, the 5 effect this has on the employer, all the deal with money, is 6 unbelievable. Did you know -- I don't know if y'all noticed 7 or not, but I've talked to other businesses around and other 8 employers. They always know when their employees are talking 9 about money on the job, because it's when they go by their 10 office and they see them on the phone, huddling around. They 11 say the average person -- employee, I should say, spends 20 12 hours plus per month on the job taking care of personal 13 financial matters. Whether it's sitting there figuring out 14 how they're going to pay their bills, calling creditors on 15 the line, whatever, they're spending lots of money, lots of 16 time -- I mean, employers' money by taking time off and on 17 the job. 18 So, the other thing that's effective for the 19 employer is medical insurance costs. The thing in vogue 20 maybe the last four or five years is having health and 21 wellness programs, and having your employees quit smoking, 22 quit drinking, quit staying up late, exercise every day and 23 lose weight. If they do those things, they're supposed to 24 reduce the medical costs 'cause they're supposed to get in 25 better health. And that does work; there's no question about 11-8-10 114 1 it. However, a study's recently been made that said that the 2 cost of stress and the money worries and all the issues to do 3 with money affect the health of the individuals three-to-one 4 over those other issues. Three-to-one cause of stress. 5 Stress takes incredible energy. It's causing all kind of 6 things, marital problems, everything else. So, that being 7 the case, for you as an employer, there's a lot of ways that 8 you come out better. And this is a voluntary program. So, 9 we say manage your debt, reduce your expenses, know where you 10 stand, protect yourself. 11 Anybody here ever heard of identity theft? You've 12 heard of -- you know what that is, right? You've heard of a 13 program called LifeLock; I'm sure you've heard of that. 14 LifeLock is considered the number one premier identity theft 15 program in the country. We offer LifeLock as part of our 16 program. We also offer free tax services as part of the 17 program, because everybody has to deal with taxes. A free 18 tax return, 1040, every year. We offer legal programs so 19 people can go to lawyers, and a lot less expensive. And 20 LifeLock for the whole family is included. And we tell you 21 all these things together reduce the stress, and by reducing 22 the stress, it helps you as the employer by helping 23 employees. To give you an idea, we got three different 24 patches. And as Margie said already, this is voluntary. The 25 patches are, we have one for 9.95 a month, so that's cheap. 11-8-10 115 1 Everybody gets a lot of benefits. One for 19.95 a month, and 2 another one 29.95 a month. It's all voluntary. Employees 3 decide if they want it or don't want it. 4 The next thing we came up with is that there is an 5 issue with retirement funding vehicles. Y'all have a 457, I 6 would guess; deferred compensation program, I would think. 7 And there are other things like 401(k)'s, and other types of 8 employers have 403(b)'s, which schools have and different 9 kinds of functions where you put the money in pre-tax, and -- 10 but when you take it out, it's 100 percent taxable, okay? 11 That's -- we find those to be good; there's nothing wrong 12 with that, but we created a companion plan to go along with 13 that that's tax-free income, where the money you put in is 14 taxable. If you've heard of Roth IRA -- you know what a Roth 15 is. Roth is where you can put in money non -- you go ahead 16 and pay taxes on the money going in. You don't get the 17 deduction, but money coming out is 100 percent tax-free. 18 This is a -- as we call it, a Roth on steroids. 19 It's a little bit different kind of concept, but it's 20 available for the -- for the employees. It's available for 21 their spouses. It's available for their children. It's a 22 fantastic way to create money. And we can show you in 23 demonstrations -- we can show you how, in actuality, the 24 money -- the return of the money you get at the end is much 25 greater because of the taxes. You've heard of an economist, 11-8-10 116 1 if you've ever see him on T.V., named Ben Stein. I don't 2 know if you've ever seen him on T.V. He says this; that the 3 401(k)'s and all those tax programs, where they're okay if 4 they motivate somebody to save, but the truth is, what you're 5 doing there is you're not paying tax on the seed, but when 6 the harvest comes out, you're paying tax on the entire 7 harvest. For y'all around in this part of the world that has 8 a lot of agriculture and all this kind of stuff, you know 9 what I'm talking about. If you had a choice, would you 10 rather pay tax on the seed or the harvest? I think most 11 people would rather pay tax on the seed. That's the same 12 thing we have with our program. In our program, you go ahead 13 and you pay tax on the seed, but you pay no tax on the entire 14 harvest. And that's called our tax-free retirement program, 15 and it is unbelievable. And its benefits -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Excuse me. 17 MR. BONNET: Yes, sir? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I apologize for interrupting you, 19 but Commissioners Court has a commitment beginning about a 20 minute ago with an outside organization. Is there some 21 material that you could leave with our H.R. Director so as to 22 be available to our employees that will supplement what you 23 have to say here today? 24 MR. BONNET: Sure. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: In order that they can have this 11-8-10 117 1 information available to them? 2 MR. BONNET: Sure. Tell you what we'll do. I've 3 got a package for each one of y'all, as a matter of fact. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 MR. BONNET: And where's the H.R. Director? 6 MS. HYDE: Right here. 7 MR. BONNET: Oh, there you are. Okay, great. I'll 8 give you one first. And I think I got -- no, I may not have 9 enough. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't give the Judge one. 11 He gets everything. (Laughter.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's right. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I hold onto them too, don't I? 15 MR. BONNET: Here you go. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: See here? 17 MR. BONNET: Anyway, thank y'all very much. This 18 is a voluntary program. The response to it by employees has 19 been phenomenal. We can, you know, go through a lot of 20 detail. And I appreciate the chance to be here today. We 21 thought we had a little longer, but that's fine, and thank 22 you so much. And hope to see you again. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I appreciate your cooperation. 25 MR. BONNET: Thank you. 11-8-10 118 1 JUDGE TINLEY: We will be in recess until 1:30. We 2 will meet downstairs at 1:30. 3 (Recess taken from 12:04 p.m. to 1:36 p.m.) 4 - - - - - - - - - - 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come back to order, if 6 we might. We were in recess for lunch. Got a couple more 7 agenda items to deal with. Let's go to Item 23; consider, 8 discuss, take appropriate action on proposal from Texas 9 Correctional Industries to build security perimeter fence 10 around Kerr County Law Enforcement Center and Sheriff's 11 Office Annex. Sheriff Hierholzer? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This is -- is accounted for 13 and the money was put in the capital expenditure. If you'll 14 remember, we started from there and went on. We were going 15 to get bids and everything. Found that T.D.C., as I call it, 16 T.D.C.J., their industries program actually does this type of 17 work. They will come up with a group of inmates; they will 18 install the fence. We'll house their four or five inmates, 19 six maybe, whatever it is, during that time period. So, they 20 did come up, one of their supervisors. We showed them where 21 we want a security fence and how we wanted it in there with 22 the gates and everything and what-have-you. In front of you 23 is the bid. Now, I think we are at the point, with the 24 apartments that have been built across the street, the other 25 apartments going in beside those, and the college behind us, 11-8-10 119 1 that we do need to increase our security perimeter around 2 that facility. And it will give us a lot more flexibility on 3 using some of that. 4 This fence is chain link fence, 10 foot, 9-gauge. 5 1,200 feet of it is being provided by Kerr County that we 6 have extra. They are giving us $12,803.36 credit for that 7 1,200 feet and the extra part that we have with it. And the 8 razor wire is 30-inch razor wire, and would go all around the 9 fence correctly, but it will also take in the roofline of two 10 sides of the new annex building will also be on razor wire, 11 due to the ability to be able to climb up and go over that 12 roof too easily with air-conditioner units and all that right 13 there. So, I think it would greatly enhance the security 14 that I believe we need. The one other company that we have 15 talked with about a price on it had given us a price 16 providing all the fence, but it was 8-foot fence, and it was 17 18-inch razor wire, and that price came to a little over 18 87,000. So, I think this -- and it did not include the razor 19 wire around the -- the new annex. So, what you have is a 20 total price of -- well, I gave one of y'all my -- total price 21 of 66,000 for the fence itself, not counting the razor wire 22 around the annex, but where the other was 87,000 with 8-foot 23 fence, but providing materials. So, I don't think we could 24 come out any better on it. The price is only good for 30 25 days. And I did check with the State, because some of this 11-8-10 120 1 you do not have to bid, and part of this is that -- I even 2 called them; they called me back early this morning. We do 3 not have to bid this getting it from the State -- getting it 4 from T.D.C. It's that any agency or political subdivision 5 purchasing goods under this subchapter who desires to 6 purchase goods or articles from the office, it may do so 7 without complying with any other state law otherwise 8 requiring the agency or political subdivision to request 9 competitive bids for that article, under chapter -- the 10 Section 497.025 of the Texas Government Code, under 11 Procurement Procedures. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't see the credit 13 noted. Where is it? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, the credit is if you -- on 15 that first page, I got them to -- actually, I called them 16 back and said, "How much credit are you giving us?" On that 17 first page where you have the prices, -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- it does mention in the body 20 that we are providing that 1,200 feet, the 24 rows of 21 10-foot, 9-gauge. So, I asked them to let me know what the 22 price would be without that, and this was the e-mail I got 23 back from them showing what the price would have been without 24 us providing that, and it comes out to a $12,800 deduction in 25 price for us to provide that. 11-8-10 121 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's already been deducted 2 out of these numbers? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Already been deducted out of 4 that. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Essentially, a dollar a foot. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Pretty close. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thanks. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: $10 a foot. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you're talking about a 10 total of about 70,000? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: 73,377. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 73,000. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hargis? The lady that keeps 16 track of all the money. Where are we on our capital 17 projects, specifically as it relates to the Law Enforcement 18 Center property, as well as other commitments we may have in 19 place with regard to the excess funds that we were able to 20 hold onto from that project? 21 MS. HARGIS: I can't quote the total excess, but I 22 can give you as of Friday, we had spent a million, 76 on the 23 annex. And we had a million, five in that. And we had 24 21,000 included for the fence in there, and then we expanded 25 the fence, so I had anticipated that we would put the fence 11-8-10 122 1 as -- you know, the increase of the fence in with that 2 project. So, there's enough money left in that project to do 3 the fence. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And one part of this, there's 5 one gate, the one drive-through. There's several gates in 6 there. One's on one side that's just a padlock-type gate in 7 case we had to get larger vehicles, emergency vehicles back 8 behind the facility. On the other side, between the new 9 annex and the current facility, there's a couple walk-through 10 gates that are keypad-operated, and then there's one large 11 drive-through gate that will be electronically operated with 12 cameras on it. The cost of the electronics and the camera 13 will come out of seizure fund. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I was going to ask about that 15 for this. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The cost of the electronics 17 and the camera will come out of the seizure fund. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I reminded you this morning 19 we were going to ask you about it. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: You didn't think he'd remember, did 21 you? 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Oh, I knew he'd remember. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't see the garden in 24 here anywhere. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That is a future project that 11-8-10 123 1 will be in there with this, okay? Len Odom and I have 2 already had the discussions. My intention is that hopefully 3 we will be able to, back behind the jail where it is now, 4 where it's flat, until we get to the point that we have to 5 add onto the jail and use that property, that we will be able 6 to put in a substantially large garden area back there. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You can get some dirt from 8 Schreiner College. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what Len had talked 10 about, was the dirt over there at Schreiner College that they 11 have. We'd scrape some of that down so we have good dirt, 12 and attempt to run regular educational classes, hopefully 13 with, like, the Master Gardeners and that, and teach some 14 inmates some trades while we have them. And I think it will 15 get rid of some disciplinary problems inside from idleness. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I think studies show that programs 17 like this do provide some beneficial rehabilitative effects. 18 Of course, if you teach a little bit of trades at the same 19 time, so much the better. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move that we approve the 22 proposal from the Texas Correctional Industries to build this 23 security perimeter fence around Kerr County Law Enforcement 24 Center and Sheriff's Office Annex. Want the total? You have 25 the total. 11-8-10 124 1 JUDGE TINLEY: 73,377. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly what I 3 thought it was. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second as 6 indicated. Further question or discussion on the motion? 7 All in favor of that motion, indicate by raising your right 8 hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carried. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How long will it take? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They said 90 to 120 days once 15 they start, total. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Goodness. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Or once we contact them. 18 That's what the -- the actual -- I think second page or the 19 third page. Ordered to be complete 90 to 120 days after 20 receipt of the purchase order. Once I send them the purchase 21 order, then them getting their equipment, getting up here, 22 everything else. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think the actual 24 construction time is going to take anywhere close to that. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I wouldn't think so. 11-8-10 125 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But we have to, you know, get 2 with that Texas One deal and make sure where all the 3 underground utilities are, all that stuff out there. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, that'd be a good idea. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Oh, yeah. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I believe the only remaining 7 item we have on the agenda is Item 18, if I'm not mistaken. 8 We'll go to that item now. Consider, discuss, and take 9 appropriate action to adopt order prohibiting the keeping, 10 ownership, possession, confinement, care for, or custody of 11 dangerous wild animals within Kerr County, and repealing the 12 November 26th, 2001 Commissioners Court Order Number 37332. 13 Commissioner Oehler? 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes, sir. I put this on the 15 agenda because of all the things that have led us to where we 16 are today, and in case we did want to take action, we could. 17 Back in 2001, I believe you just stated that there was an 18 order allowing for possession of wild and dangerous animals. 19 I believe back then, the U.S.D.A. was the one that ran the -- 20 ran the -- or ran herd on them or whatever you want to call 21 it, enforced the act. And sometime later, it got dropped on 22 Kerr County to do the enforcement. About a year ago, we had 23 one to get out, as we well know, from -- from Anke; her cat 24 somehow got out in the middle of the night and wound up in 25 Ms. Crenshaw's back yard about 2:30, 3 o'clock in the 11-8-10 126 1 morning, and we've had some issues with that. We wound up -- 2 Animal Control tranquilized the cat, and we held the cat for 3 a while until she could bring her facility into compliance 4 with the state law, which she did. 5 And at that time, I think we went over all of this 6 and we put it on the agenda -- I did, or I guess maybe Animal 7 Control did, to talk about whether we wanted to continue to 8 allow them, or whether we wanted to ban them, which I believe 9 under -- under our authority, we have the right to do one or 10 the other. We can either allow them or we can not allow 11 them; we can ban them. Anyway, we went through that and, you 12 know, we learned a lot during that time. We learned that 13 Animal Control does not have the expertise, nor do they have 14 the training, nor do we have a facility in case we have this 15 kind of an issue, and that has been pointed out to us again 16 since. We've had this other issue come up in -- I believe it 17 was June, when we discovered that the Tumas have more animals 18 than what they had permits for. That has caused a lot of 19 hard feelings amongst neighbors that don't want the animals 20 there. And it has been stated many times that every -- they 21 have a lot of support for having these animals in the 22 neighborhood, and I have yet to find one resident that is in 23 support of them having the wild and dangerous animals. 24 I don't know, maybe, the best way to handle this. 25 That's why I bring it to the Court. There has been a lot of 11-8-10 127 1 misinformation. Animal Control has been involved in this 2 from day one. I believe that back about a year ago, when we 3 had this and we had it on the agenda before, Mrs. Tuma came 4 in and begged us not to ban the animals, because there were 5 those that were in compliance, her being one of them. They 6 had one mountain lion. They had a permit for it. They had a 7 facility for it that was -- that was inspected and seemed to 8 be fine by Animal Control. Then five other -- six other 9 animals were brought in, and they were not registered. They 10 were not permitted. We found out about them in June, and by 11 Mrs. Tuma's admission, they had had some of them since April. 12 I guess my question is, are we going to allow 13 people to come in under our present order that says that, you 14 know, they will be licensed and they will meet requirements 15 in order to be able to possess these animals, but are we 16 going to turn -- are we going to turn a -- you know, we're 17 going to turn a blind eye to this and say, no, it's okay, 18 because now you've declared yourselves a sanctuary? And they 19 did that right after they got caught by Kerr County for 20 having animals that were unpermitted. So, here we go. I 21 don't know, you know, what -- what Kerr County's supposed to 22 do now, because evidently, from what they're telling us, if 23 you have a sanctuary, you're basically unregulated. You 24 don't have to meet any requirements. You don't have to do 25 anything that -- what Kerr County's order says. And, you 11-8-10 128 1 know, I don't understand that. Because I believe that we're 2 here to not only protect the Tumas' right to have and possess 3 animals, or just rights in general; we're here to protect 4 everybody's rights. And I believe the neighbors have a 5 right, you know, to feel like that they are protected under 6 what the law says that the county should do to insure their 7 safety. And -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a couple questions 9 for you. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Number one, what is 12 different from the 2001 order? In this thing that I'm 13 looking at now, what's different? And what -- do you want to 14 answer that one? 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not anything that I'm aware 16 of. 17 MR. HENNEKE: Different from -- I don't understand 18 the question, Commissioner. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, different. Not -- not 20 the same. Attorney. 21 MR. HENNEKE: Between what the law was in 2001 and 22 what the law is now? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. No, what the law was 24 that we adopted an order in 2001. 25 MR. HENNEKE: Yes, sir. 11-8-10 129 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And we're maybe going to 2 adopt another order -- another order here in a few moments. 3 Why are we adopting another one? 4 MR. HENNEKE: The order -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's wrong with the other 6 one? 7 MR. HENNEKE: Well, the other one, that one that 8 the Commissioners Court adopted in 2001, Commissioner 9 Oehler's right. This used to be -- dangerous wild animal 10 possession used to be regulated by the feds, and then in 11 approximately 2000, the federal government handed this over 12 to the states to be in charge of, and as Austin is typically 13 wont to do, they delegated it down to the counties to -- to 14 enforce. And in complying with the state law that was passed 15 in the 2001 legislative session, this Court, in November of 16 2001, adopted its order under the Human -- Health and Safety 17 Code of the Texas statutes. That allowed for the possession 18 of dangerous wild animals within Kerr County as long as you 19 comply with the regulatory scheme set forth in the statute. 20 Because what the statute does, -- and this is discussed in 21 Greg Abbott's Attorney General opinion from 2002 -- counties 22 have two choices. Number one, the counties have an outright 23 right, under the Health and Safety Code, to entirely prohibit 24 the ownership, possession, confinement, or care of a 25 dangerous wild animal. So, on one hand, ban them completely. 11-8-10 130 1 On the other hand, you can permit their possession within the 2 county under that framework. That's what the Court did in 3 2001. And what the proposed order would do that's been 4 circulated for discussion today would be to ban them 5 outright. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. I see. 7 MR. HENNEKE: And just for the Court's reference, 8 we wouldn't be the first county; I don't think we'd be the 9 last county to do it. I just have an example of the Hunt 10 County Commissioners Court order from, I think, 2003, which 11 bans the -- the possession of dangerous wild animals. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Let me ask my second 13 question now. It sounded like -- I mean, I guess -- I guess 14 you're using the Tumas as an example, but it sounded like 15 this whole thing is geared toward them. You used the Tumas 16 throughout your dialogue there, and I'm just wondering, I 17 mean, is this thing geared just toward them? Or are we 18 trying to accomplish something that's healthy for the whole 19 county? 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I think we're trying to 21 accomplish something that's healthy for the whole county. 22 And up until this point, we -- until this happened in June, 23 we didn't know of any unlicensed -- unpermitted wild and 24 dangerous animals. And even -- you know, they even complied 25 with the rules when they came to Kerr County and brought in 11-8-10 131 1 one mountain lion, so they knew what the rules were. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So I'm really talking about 4 the animals that are here without permits. And I would say 5 that is illegal, based on our order. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Based on the 2001 order? 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The 2001 order. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Which is what's in effect at 10 the moment. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, you know, we have not 13 had -- other than Anke's problem when the cat got out and we 14 had some issues with that. The County made mistakes. You 15 know, we -- we did. That's just the way it is. And I'm not 16 sure that those mistakes won't be repeated in the future to 17 some extent, because we don't have people that are trained. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How will this new order fix 19 those -- those issues that you're talking about right now? 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we ban them, we don't have 21 to deal with it any more. Animal Control doesn't deal with 22 wild and dangerous animals. There won't be any unless 23 they're bootlegged in here. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And that's kind of what -- 11-8-10 132 1 you know, where we are. They -- you know, we do have an 2 enforcing agency, and we are the -- the body that governs 3 that. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who is the enforcement 5 agency if we ban them completely and not allow an animal in 6 the county? 7 MR. HENNEKE: Well, it would be the County, by suit 8 to seek an order from a district court enforcing this 9 Commissioners Court order banning them. So, I guess it would 10 be the district court would uphold this Court's order 11 prohibiting the possession within Kerr County. Now, in 12 looking at this, Commissioner Baldwin, you know, we're 13 talking, I think, in my opinion -- and I support what 14 Commissioner Oehler's talking about here today. It's a 15 public safety issue. And under the state law as written, you 16 know, in a lawful way that allows for possession of these 17 dangerous wild animals, and it requires that you get 18 insurance and requires that you build cages. But as we saw 19 with the tiger that got out in October-November of 2008, 20 there's always room for -- for human error. There's room for 21 human error. 22 And as we saw here in city of Kerrville a month ago 23 with that dog -- that dog case, that one that ripped that 24 woman's arm off, you know, there's some -- these are some 25 very dangerous situations. And whether or not you have 11-8-10 133 1 insurance -- which is one of the reasons why Mr. and 2 Mrs. Tuma out in the west Kerr County didn't comply, is 3 because they don't have the insurance. They appealed that 4 fact to Judge Ragsdale, and he agreed. But even if you did, 5 and one of your animals gets out, somebody gets hurt, 6 somebody's kid gets mauled, somebody gets injured, you know, 7 it's going to be a small consolation after the fact that -- 8 that the responsible party had insurance, or had a 9 certificate of registration. 10 Now, I've been involved -- actively involved in 11 this matter, and I see that there's three main issues that 12 we're dealing with on whether or not Kerr County wants to 13 continue to allow these to be legal to be possessed in Kerr 14 County. One of them is just the straight-up public safety 15 issue. These animals are inherently dangerous. There's no 16 way to make them safe. There's always room for human error. 17 There's always the possibility that one of these animals can 18 get out. And if they get out, they can cause very, very 19 serious injury, and there's just no way around that. There's 20 no way to completely say with any manner of certainty that 21 it's impossible that anything could ever happen with any of 22 these animals. So, if we let them -- allow them to continue 23 to be possessed in Kerr County, we're going to be allowing 24 the continuation of a dangerous situation. Now, whether -- 25 when or whether that danger manifests itself, I can't tell 11-8-10 134 1 you, but I think everybody in this room would agree that that 2 danger would still be out there. 3 Second major issue I'd point out for the Court, as 4 Commissioner Oehler mentioned, you know, Kerr County Animal 5 Control is the department that's tasked with handling animal 6 control issues. But handling dogs and cats and the good work 7 that they do with Marc and Janie and their staff is a whole 8 lot different from having to address these dangerous wild 9 animals. And right now, I think that if these are going to 10 be continued to be legally possessed in Kerr County, Kerr 11 County has an obligation to invest considerably in making 12 sure that its employees have the training, expertise, 13 facility, and equipment to be able to handle a situation if 14 and when it arises. And I don't think that they have that 15 now, and I don't think that's fair to the folks that we would 16 expect to respond to, you know, a repeat of a dangerous 17 situation such as the one that happened in 2008. 18 Lastly, the major issue that I would point out to 19 the Court is I do think this is a property rights issue. But 20 I look at this as a property rights issue not from the 21 standpoint of those who want to own them, but I look at this 22 as a property rights issue of the families and the 23 residential areas, the people that live nearby that have 24 lived in that area, that have chosen to live in that area, 25 that haven't chosen to have tigers and cougars and bobcats 11-8-10 135 1 and bears next door to their property. This is affecting the 2 way that those people have the use and enjoyment of their 3 land. It was reported in the Kerrville -- either the Daily 4 Times or San Antonio Express News, that one of the neighbors 5 out in west Kerr feels he's got to have -- he's got to be 6 armed if he's going to go outside of his house, because he's 7 worried about, you know, this being dangerous. It's not a 8 laughing matter. And I've talked with people that live in 9 that area -- it's near Johnson Creek -- who are worried about 10 going down to the creek with their grandkids to play, because 11 they're worried about what could happen. And I know people 12 that don't go for walks at night because they don't feel safe 13 in that. 14 And those people have an absolute right to feel 15 safe in their homes. They have an absolute right on their 16 property to have the right not to have their use and 17 enjoyment -- and they were there first. And there's other 18 people that are going to move into that area that want to 19 live in that area as a family, not necessarily live next to a 20 -- a dangerous wild animal sanctuary. We've got schools 21 nearby. We've got Ingram Elementary School within four or 22 five miles. And, you know, I think that when I look at this 23 as a property rights issue, I look at it from that 24 perspective. And I look at, what's the utility? What is the 25 real benefit to Kerr County of letting three or four 11-8-10 136 1 people -- that's all we're talking about, three or four 2 people in this entire county -- possess something that we're 3 going to have to all agree is inherently dangerous, and how 4 does that balance versus the rights of everybody else to be 5 safe and comfortable in their homes, to be able to use their 6 property as they choose, and -- and not to have to be worried 7 about this kind of situation? 8 I think if you balance the cost benefit, I think 9 it's a pretty straightforward public safety issue. I would 10 be very surprised if most folks in this room want something 11 next to them like this. I don't think it's fair for the 12 neighbors and those who have been patient with Kerr County 13 while we've tried to enforce the state law, while we've tried 14 to make sure that everybody is legal and comes into 15 compliance, but even if they do, it's still going to leave 16 this dangerous situation on the properties of those that own 17 them. And so I commend Commissioner Oehler for bringing this 18 issue up, and I would urge this Court to look at it not from 19 the viewpoint of the three or four people that want to have a 20 pet tiger or want to have a pet bobcat, but from everybody 21 else that lives in that neighborhood that has chosen not to. 22 And I think we have to respect those people's choices and 23 those families' choices, and we have to find a way to make 24 sure that they -- they can feel safe in their own homes and 25 sleep in their beds at night. 11-8-10 137 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Excellent. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Finished, Commissioner? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Actually, no. There's a 4 flip side to that, though. You know, and all the history I 5 have is I have an old friend out at Hunt -- had an old friend 6 out at Hunt that had mountain lions, had cougars; he was a 7 Houston Cougar fan, major contributor. He had -- and big 8 cougars. And they brought a joy to his family, and all of 9 his neighbors and all of us. And, I mean, we played with 10 them like -- you know, that's the side that I've seen. I 11 never considered one of those things getting out and eating 12 the neighbor's kids or anything like that. But it's just -- 13 you know, they actually brought joy. I mean, they were pets 14 like dogs. They really got along well. That's -- you know, 15 that's the only -- that's the other side of the thing. It 16 can happen. We can live in peace. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Two things. As I recall, the 18 law says you either have to ban the state list or not at all. 19 You can't modify the list. 20 MR. HENNEKE: And that's the either/or discussed in 21 the Attorney General's opinion. That was an opinion that 22 asked if you could tweak the Health and Safety Code to ban 23 some, but not ban others, or to make other changes in the 24 law. Attorney General's opinion was clear that, yes, 25 counties have the authority to outright ban the possession, 11-8-10 138 1 or you have to adopt and -- and enforce the state law as-is, 2 no changes. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I guess -- and I said two; 4 I really have three questions. On the second part, is there 5 a mechanism in the law that we currently have adopted to 6 charge a fee for the licensing that is a substantial fee that 7 would pay for the -- I guess, the training of personnel? 8 MR. HENNEKE: No. If -- if you're going to allow 9 them to continue to be possessed, the Health and Safety Code 10 caps the maximum fee for registration at $50 per animal, and 11 that's set forth in the Health and Safety Code. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 13 MR. HENNEKE: And we charge that already. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And I guess my last 15 part -- and this has been -- and this is the part of the law 16 that I guess I had the biggest problem with in the past when 17 I looked at it. It goes through the list of all these 18 animals; I won't read through them, but then it goes, "or any 19 hybrid of an animal listed." And while you say there's three 20 people that have animals in the county, I know of one, and 21 possibly two others, that have a hybrid of some of those 22 animals. And a hybrid -- it doesn't say this is a hybrid, 23 being a first generation. It is quite common to have hybrids 24 of ocelots in house cats. 25 MR. HENNEKE: Mm-hmm. 11-8-10 139 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's where I come into 2 the -- that has been the reason I have never supported 3 banning them, is because of, you know, the unintended 4 consequences of a poorly written state law. And that's where 5 I have the problem. I mean, I -- you know, I do not have a 6 problem with banning pretty much every animal on the list, 7 but when it comes to that other part of it, that's where I 8 start getting hung up, because I don't want to make people 9 that are law-abiding citizens law breakers because the 10 Legislature wrote a poor law. And that's -- and maybe the 11 answer from my standpoint is to go to our legislators and 12 have them tweak the state law that gives a little bit more 13 flexibility to counties. 14 MR. HENNEKE: Well, that's -- I mean, that's a good 15 point. And I think in that situation, it would be -- be a 16 fact issue. I mean, it's not defined as to how many 17 generations of breeding does it take between when a dangerous 18 wild animal becomes an animal. But I think that those 19 circumstances are -- are rare, and for practical realities, 20 when you're talking about this statute, you know, the -- the 21 fifth generation house cat that happened to have some other 22 genes in it, that's not what we're talking about here. We're 23 talking about lions and elephants and bears and coyotes and 24 jackals and that -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Orangutans. 11-8-10 140 1 MR. HENNEKE: Orangutans, yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They're wild, orangutans. 3 MR. HENNEKE: You'd have to get rid of yours, 4 Commissioner. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Actually, my wife 6 owns that thing. I have nothing to do with it. (Laughter.) 7 MR. HENNEKE: All right. But I see your point, 8 Commissioner Letz, and I think your point about the -- you 9 know, the statute is -- you know, it's valid. There's some, 10 you know, issues like, what's a hybrid? There's some issues 11 as far as, you know, the insurance. But the -- you know, the 12 statute's written as-is, and either we keep it as-is and keep 13 the current situation to persist, or not. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I think the thing that 15 aggravates me the most is the fact that whenever there is -- 16 there is a law on the books that allows this to happen, and 17 that law is not -- not followed, and then whenever you get 18 caught, then you go and you get a designation of some other 19 kind that makes you exempt, supposedly. And all this is 20 poorly written. I -- you know, I totally agree with the fact 21 that it needs to be rewritten if it's going to have any teeth 22 in it. Because if we can't enforce it, if we can't -- if we 23 can't have parameters and rules that allow them to be in that 24 area, and where the residents feel like that they're safe, 25 based on the fact that there are some requirements -- some 11-8-10 141 1 cage requirements, pen requirements for those kinds of 2 things -- you know, I have no quarrel with people owning 3 them, whatever the heck they want to own, as long as it 4 doesn't affect their neighbor, and there's some assurance 5 that it doesn't -- that it can't, because of requirements 6 being met under the law. That's where this is all coming 7 from, from my perspective. And I do think it needs to be 8 rewritten, and we need to do -- I'm bringing this up because 9 there is a concern of many people that live right in that 10 general area that don't feel like that what has been done has 11 been right, and they would like to see it righted. And I'm 12 not sure that banning them is the -- is the total right 13 method, but it is an option. 14 MR. HENNEKE: It's an either/or decision, 15 Commissioner Oehler; you're right. I mean, there's some 16 issues with the state law as far as whether, if the Court 17 kept it as-is, that you could tell the -- some of the 18 neighbors that are here in court today, and the other folks 19 in Kerr County that look at it, that the state law is good 20 enough to protect y'all. You know, and y'all should feel 21 safe. And I think that there's concerns with the 22 requirements and the way that they're enforced that -- you 23 know, I wouldn't be able to say that the state law, as 24 written, as allowed for, if you continue them to be 25 possessed, will necessarily accomplish what Commissioner 11-8-10 142 1 Oehler said, in an ideal situation, he would prefer. Which 2 leads us to the reality of what the law is, how it's written, 3 and the two choices that -- that this Court has to balance, 4 and the -- you know, the public interests that go into that. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We wouldn't be here today if 6 the rules had been followed that were in place. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, maybe I've got a little 8 different take on things. This issue being before the Court 9 right now disturbs me, and it disturbs me because we had 10 reference to an incident that happened over a year ago. And 11 subsequent to that, according to my memory, on three 12 occasions that was before this Court for consideration to 13 take the action that's being proposed today. It didn't gain 14 any traction. After the incident that probably should have 15 sparked a lot of outrage, it didn't gain any traction. And 16 in the year or more that's passed since then, we haven't had 17 any more incidents of that type, but rather what is in the 18 forefront right now, and has been for the last few months, 19 has been some litigation, fairly aggressive litigation that's 20 somewhat high profile, not caused by -- by any incident which 21 anyone was placed at risk, where an animal of this type 22 escaped. And I think the comment that -- that if we adopt 23 this order, we can put an end to this litigation, that 24 probably disturbs me more than anything else. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Judge, if I can make a -- 11-8-10 143 1 excuse me just for one second. I did not make that 2 statement. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I -- it was attributed, and 4 it's been advanced as a reason. But be that as it may, I 5 think the perception is among the public that the advancement 6 of the order at this time is to, quote, put an end to that 7 litigation. Now, those persons that may have felt their 8 safety was at risk had an opportunity, like I say, by my 9 count, on three occasions to come before the Court and say, 10 "We feel threatened by the wild animals in this county." 11 Registered, unregistered, doesn't make any difference. But 12 this litigation that has gone on for the last several months, 13 which has resulted in a court here in Kerr County enjoining 14 the keeping or the maintaining of those types of animals on 15 more than one occasion, and on all of those occasions, that 16 actually has been countermanded by an appellate court. And 17 the matter coming before the Court at this time, I think, 18 gives a clear impression that we're the regulators, and we're 19 going to win at all costs, and if we can't win it in the 20 courthouse, we're going to legislate it our way. 21 And this happens after the adversaries in the suit 22 which was brought by Kerr County are asserting their 23 position, and have spent probably tens of thousands of 24 dollars to advance the -- what they hope will be the 25 legitimacy of their position. And as we get close to the 11-8-10 144 1 result, they're being told -- or they're being faced with the 2 option of, "That's all right, that'll all be for naught 3 anyway." I don't think that presents a perception of 4 fairness on behalf of government in the treatment of its 5 citizens. Now, we -- we have the opportunity and the 6 obligation to impose regulation for safety where we're 7 allowed by law, and where our citizens desire it, where they 8 insist upon it. I've not seen a great rush of people coming 9 into this courthouse or anywhere else saying, "I feel 10 threatened," as you've indicated. But I'm -- I'm concerned 11 about the due process, the fairness of how this matter before 12 this Court at this time is being perceived. 13 The order which -- which is on the books now got 14 there as a result of -- of publication of notice, like most 15 all of our regulatory orders. People had an opportunity to 16 be heard at a public hearing, and the proposal before the 17 Court by this agenda item is to -- no, we're not going to 18 have another public hearing to go the other direction; we're 19 just going to -- just going to reverse course. I don't think 20 that conforms with fairness. I'm concerned about fairness to 21 all parties and the perception, the message, the image that 22 is projected by this Court considering this particular matter 23 at this time. I'm not certain. I think the litigation 24 hearing has been set for sometime next month. 25 AUDIENCE: December 7th. 11-8-10 145 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Whether or not it'll be heard then, 2 I don't know. But I think for this Court to do anything 3 right now is a disservice. It's a disservice to ourselves 4 because of the perception that -- that it projects of us, and 5 I would strongly, strongly -- if there's going to be further 6 consideration of this, there has to be a public hearing. 7 There has to be. You know, if you're going to impose it, if 8 you're going to take it off, you got to go -- you got to go 9 the same direction. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I just -- I'm just very, very 12 disturbed by this, by the timing and -- and the perception 13 that is projected by this thing at this time. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't disagree with you. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I do disagree with some things 16 the Judge said, quite a bit. I recall after the -- the 17 incident a year ago that there was quite an uproar in this 18 courtroom about people scared about that tiger being loose in 19 the back yard. I don't believe that there was no one talking 20 about it, and that we didn't receive the other side. I mean, 21 that's -- you know, I remember some -- hearing some comments 22 about that. You know, I also think that, you know, we tend 23 to -- every time we have looked at this has been after some 24 sort of an incident, and we have another incident at this 25 time, why we're looking at it. So, I think the timing of 11-8-10 146 1 looking at this is the same as the other two times previously 2 that we've looked at this. So -- I think it was two times, 3 yeah. Well, 2001 and then a year ago. So, I mean, I think 4 that those things -- I'm not saying I'm in favor of doing it, 5 necessarily, 'cause I still have some concerns. I think it's 6 a bad law. But, you know, I don't think that this is just 7 being done right now. I mean, we always look at it right 8 after there's an incident. That's just -- that's when it 9 comes up. And I think that there have been people that have 10 spoken out and are concerned about their safety, though. So 11 those two points, that's where I disagree with you. I think 12 that the -- you know, this is one of those that, you know, 13 I'd be interested to hear from the public again. I don't 14 have a problem with doing that. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I expect we will, Commissioner. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because I think that the 18 problem is, you know, if we -- we have found in the past 19 couple years that if we don't -- if we leave the law as we -- 20 or as it is right now, we really have to go spend a bunch of 21 money and train some of our staff to be able to deal with 22 these -- 23 MR. TUMA: Not true. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't have the ability, you 25 know, to do that with Animal Control as they're currently 11-8-10 147 1 trained. So, I think that there's a problem there from a 2 budget standpoint and a training standpoint. And I think 3 that it is -- I'm very concerned that someone knowingly, 4 evidently -- you know, I haven't got all the facts; it's not 5 my precinct, but violated a county rule that was in place. 6 So, you know, both sides -- 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I believe it will come back 8 up after the -- you know, whatever happens with the 9 litigation; if it goes forward, if it stops, if it gets 10 thrown out, whatever. I still think it's -- this, in my 11 mind, was more of a way to get input on this deal, more so 12 than it was meant to get a vote today. I mean, I had to put 13 it on that way in case we decided we wanted to do that. And, 14 yeah, Judge, I'll agree, this may be some poor timing, but I 15 still agree -- I still believe that the problem exists, and 16 the problem is not going to go away. So, we're going to have 17 to deal with it somehow or another. We either got to get 18 some new legislation drafted that will clear up some of these 19 issues that we're having right now, or we're going to have to 20 go one way or the other. We don't have a middle ground on 21 this that we can -- we can't just pick and choose what we 22 want out of the law; it's either all or nothing. So, I think 23 that it -- I will -- I imagine I will bring it back up later. 24 I know that Animal Control would sure like it banned, but, 25 you know, they work for -- they work at our pleasure and 11-8-10 148 1 they'll do whatever we ask them to do. But there are a 2 lot -- there's a lot to be considered on both sides. I 3 don't -- you know, one thing I detest more than anything is 4 taking somebody's rights, or somebody taking mine. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think the point the Judge 6 makes about the timing of this, particularly coming when 7 there is litigation pending, that to me does not level the 8 playing field. It unlevels it, and I don't think we want to 9 do that right now. At least I don't want to do that right 10 now. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let the litigation take its 13 course. Whatever happens, happens. If, thereafter, a need 14 arises to do this, we can do it. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sure, we can do it any time. 16 It's just a matter of going through the process and seeing 17 where -- what the problems are. And, you know, I'm not sure 18 that all of y'all knew the whole story behind this. It's my 19 opportunity to kind of catch you up on what -- what I know to 20 be fact. If somebody wants to dispute that, they're more 21 than welcome to do so. 22 MR. TUMA: Judge, may I address the Commissioners 23 now? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Just a moment, please, sir. 25 MR. TUMA: Thank you, sir. 11-8-10 149 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have any 2 more comments at this point? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir, I don't. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I do have some participation 5 forms -- or a form at this point. Ms. Amy Tuma, do you wish 6 to be heard at this time? 7 MS. TUMA: Yeah. I think -- do you want to go 8 first? 9 MR. TUMA: I'd like to speak first, if that was all 10 right, since we're together. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Come on up and give us 12 your name and address, tell us what's on your mind, sir. 13 MR. TUMA: My name's Clint Tuma. I run Headhunters 14 International. My wife owns Hatari Safari Animal Sanctuary/ 15 Shelter. I started this thing for my wife and my daughter, 16 because I catch these animals and I handle these animals from 17 all over this state and all over the United States, all the 18 way into Canada and Alaska. Now, you are telling me that -- 19 that you're coming off with still that -- that it is an issue 20 that I am violating your law. I'm not trying to violate your 21 law, and I never was. I got these animals from a man that 22 had to get rid of them. That baby bear, when I got that baby 23 bear at the Y.O. sale, while one of the Sheriffs was holding 24 onto it, the man was older than any of y'all, and he was -- 25 he was trying to care for this bear, and he was just -- he 11-8-10 150 1 couldn't do it. He handed it off and said, "Here." When he 2 did, he said, "We also have some other animals up in Austin 3 that we'd like to give you." Okay? 4 I had one as a pet. Just like you said, as a pet. 5 Okay? I got all the proper paperwork; I did the insurance. 6 I did everything that was required of my girls so that they 7 could have that animal. Had it for a couple years, 8 absolutely no problem. Now, when you step up and you start 9 saying to yourself, okay, you're going to start taking in 10 more of these animals and making a shelter out of the 11 situation, you look at the law. And you look at your law, 12 the county law, and that law says that as an animal 13 sanctuary, that y'all are not the governing agency in that 14 position any more. And by doing that, it puts the U.S.D.A. 15 in charge. The U.S.D.A. laws are four times more strict than 16 your laws are, and if you don't follow them, they come and 17 they come confiscate your animals, and it's over with. 18 There's no litigation, there's no nothing. If my -- if the 19 situation was not as it should be, with the U.S.D.A. law, 20 they just shut you down. You guys don't have to go through 21 any money, you don't have to go through any training, you do 22 not have to have dog catchers involved in it. Nobody has 23 business in it whatsoever except the U.S.D.A. That's the 24 feds again, bringing the feds in. 25 That's what we were trying to do, not go around 11-8-10 151 1 y'all, and not make a scene, and not cause all this 2 controversy and all these headaches. All I was trying to do 3 was to put them in a position to where that they could get 4 with the U.S.D.A., and that's what we still want to do to 5 this day, get licensed so that they can be exhibitable so 6 that we can let y'all in to see these animals and show you 7 that they are in a pen and that they are safe and that they 8 are not a health or safety issue, and never have been. It 9 wasn't to try and beat you out of anything, or the neighbors. 10 Now, my neighbors and I have never gotten along whatsoever, 11 and that has nothing to do with this issue whatsoever. I see 12 that I have the neighbor to the left of me in here today. 13 She's sitting in here researching this whole situation. They 14 have been after me for three and a half to four years, trying 15 to get rid of me out of that property, just because they 16 don't like me there, when I didn't have this kind of animal. 17 Okay? There were no dangerous animals there then. As a 18 matter of fact, they used your brother and his father both as 19 lawyers, trying to come up with ways to get me out of my 20 property before I purchased the land. 21 I purchased the land to make a wildlife shelter. 22 That's why I did it. I gave to it my wife and to my 23 daughter. I did not do it to cause anybody any problems. I 24 did it to just help the animals, and help the people, as an 25 educational process. And I want to let everybody in to look 11-8-10 152 1 at it. I take pride in my work. And there is nothing 2 getting out of any of those pens; I'll guarantee you that 3 with my life. I built those pens. And this is just -- I 4 mean, it's gone way too far. There's no sense in ever having 5 to go through all this money that this man has caused me, and 6 wasting. I mean, it's not tens of thousands of dollars; it's 7 hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's where we're at 8 right now. And I didn't do it so that he could glorify his 9 job. I did it so that these animals have a safe place to 10 live and could live out their days, and then be where they 11 are. It has nothing to do with your due process. 12 I took -- and as soon as they told me that I had to 13 have the girls register these animals with the county, I went 14 down and did it. It's not a $50 option. I have the best 15 insurance for those girls in the entire state of Texas, by 16 far. Every person that has an animal shelter or sanctuary in 17 this state, the insurance companies have told me that I have 18 a higher insurance policy. Mr. Henneke still claims that I 19 don't. That's wrong. It's completely wrong. It's farce, 20 and a lie on top of it. And he just sits up here and tells 21 you that it is a health and safety issue. He has been saying 22 that since day one. There's no health issue. They brought 23 the EPA in. He's called every agency he possibly could on 24 me. I openly let you in the door. I've told you yourself 25 already, you are all welcome at my facility to come and look 11-8-10 153 1 at it and make sure that I'm not messing up. You understand 2 what I'm saying? 3 I did not do this to cause problems. I did it 4 because the animals need a home. And there are a lot of 5 animals in the state of Texas that need taken care of right 6 now, that the people that are taking care of them are just 7 too old. That's exactly how I got these tigers and the first 8 bear -- or the second bear, rather, which was the big Russian 9 bear. Which already was inconducive to its environment. We 10 went to move it, and it was put down because it was an 11 unhandleable animal, if you will. It was a danger. And when 12 I see a danger, I make sure that I take care of that. That's 13 my job. I work for the states -- I have worked for the state 14 of Texas; I've worked for the state of New Mexico, Utah, 15 Arizona, Montana, Idaho, and Alaska. I know how to handle 16 these animals. I'm better at it than anybody else there is 17 in the world, and I'll guarantee that. And I'll be damned if 18 I'm going to let anything get across my lines. If it -- if 19 anything ever got out of my property -- and that's the whole 20 point of U.S.D.A. 21 If we were to lose an animal and it was to get out, 22 and it was to get over onto the neighbor's property, they 23 shut you down. It would be over. You wouldn't have to 24 discuss it. You wouldn't have to ask the dogcatcher to come 25 do it. Elizabeth Pannell would, from U.S.D.A., would shut me 11-8-10 154 1 down; the feds would load up the animals and haul them away, 2 and it's over with. Plus the feds would probably haul me 3 away to jail. And that's what I want. I want the U.S.D.A.'s 4 approval, and I won't get it until the County Commissioners 5 set him in his place, and tell me okay. Give me 30 days, 6 just 30 days. Get off my back. Drop the lawsuit, and let me 7 let the U.S.D.A. in, and let the feds tell me what to do. 8 'Cause I've got the federal book and read it so many times 9 that I've got it memorized, every bit of it, from how to 10 build a cage to how to feed the animals to what they need in 11 medical care. 12 I've been in this my entire life. And everybody 13 seems to make it an issue that the only reason I did this is 14 to get over on Kerr County. I moved to Kerr County to do 15 this, and I finally got to buy the land and I started to do 16 it, and all this came back. Now, if they were all pets, I 17 agree with you, I should have a permit for each one of those 18 for the county. They're not pets. These animals shouldn't 19 be kept as pets, as far as I'm concerned, and I have never, 20 ever said that they should. These are serious animals. 21 That's like when you see on TV these people that cause me all 22 these problems in the world by sitting a big -- if you watch 23 the Marty Stouffer -- I don't know if you're familiar with 24 him, where he has got his wild animals in action and 25 everything. They've got a grizzly bear sitting on a table, 11-8-10 155 1 and making it sit there with a leash on; they've got a woman 2 sitting next to it, and she's wearing perfume that you can 3 see is inconducive to the animal. That bear watches a while; 4 he turns around and snatches her up there and tears her up. 5 Guy's wearing a karate uniform; he looks like a complete 6 idiot. 7 Whoever thought it was a good idea to put a grizzly 8 bear next to an elderly woman sitting in a room? That's 9 stupid politics. Those are people that are causing us the 10 problems that we're having today. Not when you lock them 11 down in a welded steel cage that there ain't no way they can 12 get out of unless they grow an opposable thumb and learn to 13 work a cutting torch. That's the only way they're getting 14 out of there. Otherwise, they'll be there until they're 15 dead. And that's all I'm asking for. I will take -- go to 16 the U.S.D.A., and they've already told me they'll come 17 inspect my facility and okay me as soon as I get the okay 18 from the county commissioners. Then I can take in any animal 19 that y'all find that is illegal, that people that aren't 20 permitting their pets, and that you've got tigers running 21 around that aren't permitted. But there's no sense in taking 22 that away from the -- the individuals either. As long as 23 they have the permits for the county, that's fine. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: First I've heard of this. 25 MR. TUMA: That's because it's the first time I've 11-8-10 156 1 had to come up here and talk to you. I've tried, and I got 2 stuck with a hundred-some thousand dollar bill in litigation, 3 because the first time I was in this courtroom right here and 4 talking to y'all, that was, "No, it's already in litigation. 5 We're going to let it go." All it did was cost us a whole 6 bunch of money. Cost me more money than I've got. Cost Kerr 7 County more money than you've got. And that's ridiculous. 8 It's completely asinine, is what it is, and it's gone to the 9 point that I'm standing here before you so that I can get to 10 talk to you. And I'm really, really tired of it. And 11 it's -- half of it's because of this man right here, him and 12 his attitude. He knows I don't like him. I went in and sat 13 down in his office, tried to make a deal with him. He told 14 me, "We'll have to agree to disagree," and he turned around 15 and walked out, 'cause he knew he could spend your money. 16 And all of your money, he spent every bit of it. 17 MS. RACKLEY: On experts. I agree with you. 18 MR. TUMA: And it's complete crap. Like I said, 19 when somebody wants to build something, and they're going to 20 do it right, why not let the feds decide? The feds have 21 already told me -- they're all over it. They said, "We'll 22 permit you in a flat second," as soon as I get the permission 23 of the county. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You have names of those 25 people? 11-8-10 157 1 MR. TUMA: Elizabeth Pannell is the head of the 2 U.S.D.A. for the area; she works out of Austin. And I would 3 be happy to have her in my yard as soon as I can. She cannot 4 come down, because she refuses to trump your decision. You 5 are the gentlemen that I need the permission from to let the 6 U.S.D.A. into my yard. Once you've let the U.S.D.A. in my 7 yard, it's all up to them. You understand where I'm coming 8 from. Then you don't have to have dog catchers that need 9 more training and more facility, because the government is 10 picking it up. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It would be nice to have 12 known this a little earlier. 13 MR. TUMA: Well, I tried. Nobody wants to listen. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, you never called me, 15 'cause my phone's listed, and I answer just about every time 16 it rings. 17 MR. TUMA: I went through different channels. I 18 tried to get your friends to get you to talk to me, is what I 19 did. And maybe I made a mistake there. I'm not real good 20 with this open deal, but Jerry Burson came to you and said, 21 "Hey, Mr. Tuma would like to talk to you," didn't he? And 22 you said no. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's not exactly the way it 24 was put. 25 MR. TUMA: It wasn't? 11-8-10 158 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 2 MR. TUMA: Well, I'm sorry about that too. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It was the same way -- 4 MR. TUMA: Yes, sir, but you understand -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I know what -- 6 MR. TUMA: I did try to and come to you -- 7 (Speaking at the same time.) 8 THE REPORTER: One at a time, please. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's let the reporter do her work. 10 MR. TUMA: I apologize. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: It occurs to me there may be some 12 communication at long last. Thank you, Mr. Tuma. 13 MR. TUMA: I appreciate you, sir. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Taking this opportunity, is there 15 anyone else that wishes to be heard? 16 MS. RACKLEY: I signed up. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, ma'am, you did. You have both 18 items on your -- 19 MS. RACKLEY: That's right. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: -- form. Give us your name and 21 address again. 22 MS. RACKLEY: I will. I didn't do it the first 23 time because I really wasn't serious, but this one I'm really 24 serious on. My name is Shirley Rackley. My address is Post 25 Office Box 91909, Kerrville, Texas. 78029 is my zip code. 11-8-10 159 1 My unlisted telephone number is 896 -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't believe I'd be putting that 3 in the record, Ms. Rackley. (Laughter.) 4 MS. RACKLEY: This is where I'm coming from. I'm 5 shocked that our elected officials have spent this kind of 6 money and time on malicious prosecution of a Kerr County 7 resident. That's an exercise of abuse of power, and a waste 8 of the taxpayers' money. And I don't think I need to say 9 much more. But one thing I will say. It took me seven years 10 to get a registered sex offender that burglarized my house 24 11 times convicted, and if you don't think that's a dangerous 12 animal, think again. Also, we have buffaloes in this county. 13 They're dangerous. No one's ever said anything about them. 14 And we have a neighbor that had a bull. He finally got rid 15 of it, but that bull was dangerous. He could lead it with a 16 rope, but the rest of us -- that bull was wild and dangerous. 17 No one ever did anything about that bull, or really not too 18 much about the registered sex offender either. So, you know, 19 what does it take to stop the insanity? This is insane, 20 isn't it? Do you agree, Mr. Baldwin? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ma'am, I agree that it's a 22 little bit out of character here to hear what you're saying. 23 We're not interested in the sex offenders and bulls. 24 MS. RACKLEY: Yeah, but they're dangerous too. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand that. The 11-8-10 160 1 Sheriff is sitting right over there, and I know he'd love to 2 visit with you. 3 MS. RACKLEY: No, he did already. And he told me 4 he didn't like me, but he finally -- I turned it over to the 5 Texas Ranger and got it taken care of. (Laughter.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Rackley. Yes, sir? 7 Give us your name and address. 8 MR. CHAPA: Carlos Chapa. I live on Primrose; been 9 here since 1970. Lived my whole life here. It's kind of 10 crazy. That's why I came down here today, 'cause 11 everybody's -- you know, "I got a conflict with him, and he 12 looks funny," and, you know, I know the whole story. But 13 that's not what I'm here too talk about. Kerr County is the 14 exotic capital of the world. For those of you that don't 15 know that, it is. There's been hippos here. There's been 16 rhinos here. There's giraffes in the county. There's 17 probably more animals than you could look at a book and find 18 that are in this county. Well, you don't see them, because 19 they're on ranches and they're out in the woods. People are 20 taking care of them, but you don't ever hear that, "Oh, a 21 rhino ran through town," you know. 22 But I think the problem with the Tumas is, people 23 can see them there. They want to know what they're doing, 24 'cause, you know, everybody's always wanting to know what 25 you're doing in Kerrville. "Hey, what's that guy doing? 11-8-10 161 1 What's he got over there?" So -- well, I guess somebody 2 bought them a good pair of binoculars and looked down there 3 and saw a mountain lion or something, know what I mean? And 4 got scared. I had a mountain lion, and I still have the 5 permitting for it, back in -- I guess it was '90. Around 6 '90 -- 1990, I had a mountain lion; everybody came to see it. 7 I mean, I didn't have to come before the county. The state 8 of Texas handled it. I had my pens built the way they wanted 9 them built, and everything was fine. They gave me a little 10 blue certificate, said, "Here." Then it was on me. If that 11 mountain lion got out and ate somebody, it was on me. 12 So, what I'm getting at is I think people are -- 13 the new generations coming in, they're scaredy cats, okay? 14 They're scared of this or that. And like she said, the 15 people out there that are going to get you are not on four 16 legs in this -- anywhere. You know what I'm saying? I think 17 that his -- I think that his facilities -- I've seen them. 18 They're adequate. And if they are up to U.S.D.A. 19 standards -- that's what's they did to me -- then let them 20 keep the animals. 'Cause this is what Kerr County's founded 21 on. It's not founded on banks, that we have banks everywhere 22 here; you know what I'm saying? Or the convenience store 23 capital. You know what I'm saying? Or burgers. It's about 24 ranching, okay? And just because people wanted not to raise 25 cattle and goats and sheep, they wanted to raise these 11-8-10 162 1 exotics, well, that's why they brought them here. 2 My neighbor was B.J. Red McCombs. He brought in 3 animals to his ranch 'cause he had money, and he bought them 4 from zoos and turned them loose. They did great. They had 5 thousands of acres to run on, not just, you know, small pens 6 like they do at San Antonio Zoo, or -- you know, not to pick 7 on zoos. They do the right thing too. But that's where 8 these -- you know, all that are running free. The blackbuck 9 are right here on the golf course. You know, I have people 10 say that, "Oh, the blackbuck chased me across the golf 11 course." Well, yeah, maybe you kind of look, you know, sexy 12 to them or something; maybe that's why he went after you. 13 Just messing with them; do you know what I'm saying? I'm not 14 being serious. 15 But we have to -- we have to stop all this nonsense 16 right now, because it is costing the county money, and a lot 17 of money, evidently, on both sides. Just help solve the 18 problem. You guys can do it. Mr. Tinley can do it. We are 19 just the people. We help make a voice and all that. This 20 probably needs to come up again, you know, later on, like you 21 say. But we got to -- they just published an article in the 22 newspaper about how much the hunting industry brings to Kerr 23 County. Well, you know, if we abolish all these animals, 24 wipe them all out, we'll shut Kerr County down. Everybody 25 will head out of town. You know, you won't have any hunting 11-8-10 163 1 at the Y.O. or -- or any of these other places. You know, 2 it'll be dry, cause that's what drives this county. 3 Everybody here loves to hunt, fish, and see wild animals like 4 your friend did; you know what I'm saying? But how many 5 times did he attack a kid and drag it off? Zero. How many 6 times did that cat ever get out? Zero. You know what I'm 7 saying? Like he said, if they get out, they get on the road, 8 they have to call the Sheriff to come shoot it or something, 9 well, then go get them all. I'm sure he would be in favor of 10 that. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, they're good 11 shots, or claim to be. But -- you know. (Laughter.) 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I haven't said a word yet, 13 Your Honor. 14 MR. CHAPA: We have a good Sheriff. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Just a minute, Mr. Chapa. I want to 16 get something under oath from the Sheriff. Did you claim to 17 be a good shot, Sheriff? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They even quit giving me ammo 19 a long time ago. 20 MR. CHAPA: But, anyway, I'll be quiet now. And I, 21 you know, said my piece, and if we have to come again, I'll 22 come and say something. But we got to remember that; you 23 know what I'm saying? We don't want to, like, just pick on 24 this one person, because maybe this guy doesn't like him or 25 this neighbor said he dresses funny or wears short boots. Do 11-8-10 164 1 you know what I'm saying? It's not about that. It's about 2 what we're about here. Everybody says, "Oh, you live in the 3 Hill Country?" I have it on my trailer. "Oh, we love going 4 up there, seeing all the wild animals and stuff." You know? 5 Anything can hurt you, you know? Pit bulls in town. Let's 6 round all them up; I'm for that. You know, I'm with the dog 7 catchers on that. You know what I'm saying? Let's round 8 them all up. But we can't do it. Do you know what I'm 9 saying? Something we cannot do. So we've opened up a can of 10 worms here, evidently, that we just need to seal and go on 11 with it. Do you know what I'm saying? Get some regulation. 12 That's what it's all about, is regulations. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chapa. 14 MR. CHAPA: Yes, sir. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Anyone else? I saw Ms. Tuma coming 16 forward already. I'll get to you in a minute, okay? 17 MR. TUMA: This all goes back to the same thing. 18 If you guys can remember, last year Animal Control knew -- I 19 even have correspondence with Janie saying I want 20 responsibility for this. I want to teach people how to do 21 this right. I didn't form my corporation after the fact. 22 This was started before. I've got pages of corporation 23 documents and things that you have to go through. I can't 24 just make that up. And that process was started before any 25 of this happened. If you remember, last year we talked about 11-8-10 165 1 it, the same thing, banning dangerous animals, what 2 classifies as a dangerous animal. Not but two months after 3 we had that discussion -- and we were talking about Whitetail 4 deer, and how 200 Whitetail deer -- or 200 people were killed 5 by Whitetail deer last year. In 20 years, I think the count 6 is, like, two people have been killed by tigers. Two in 20 7 years, versus 200 people killed by Whitetail. Brandon was 8 killed two months after we had our last Commissioners meeting 9 by a barasingha, which is a deer. 10 Mrs. Valdez has over 40 feral house cats that she 11 just dumps cat food out. Her house cats have killed and done 12 $5,000 worth of property damage to my livestock. There's 13 nothing I can do about that, except for remove the house cats 14 that comes over. But no one is regulating how many house 15 cats or that she dumps out cat food for these cats that come 16 and do property damage to me. Animals have to be held 17 responsible by their owners, and that's what we're asking 18 for, is responsible owners and a place where people can 19 learn, be educated and have a facility that the animals could 20 go to, or a place that people could learn the proper 21 procedures, the proper insurance. If they don't like the 22 insurance -- which I believe Henneke misquoted the Judge; he 23 didn't like the -- some of the exclusions in the insurance 24 policy. Well, I understand that. The insurance gets a 25 little confusing. Sometimes I don't understand my car 11-8-10 166 1 insurance or my home insurance. I have mold in my home; 2 insurance doesn't cover my mold, you know. 3 But if we want specific items written into the 4 insurance policies, all we have to do is say what they are, 5 and we can make those adoptions. And the County can say, "We 6 want you to have an 10-mile escape clause," or, "We want you 7 to have a $500,000 occurrence instead of a $100,000." Those 8 are things I think that the County can put in on their own as 9 far as dangerous wild animal regulations. But I think we can 10 all agree the animal list is pretty silly. Wolves aren't 11 even on that, and we all know what wolves can do, and we all 12 know that there are wolves in this county, and wolves that 13 have escaped that could still possibly be loose are in this 14 county. We have wild cougars. Wild. They aren't anyone's 15 pets. They are cougars that occur naturally in the Hill 16 Country. Nobody regulates those. No one has insurance on 17 those. And those are wild animals that can't be controlled, 18 and are on the list of dangerous wild animals that we're 19 supposed to have permits for. But yet they're a risk and a 20 threat to everybody, because they are wild. 21 So, there's a lot of information here, and I just 22 want to let the County Commissioners know again that if all 23 goes as according to plan, I do want to be the facility to 24 teach everyone how to do this. I do want to provide the 25 facility for animals that maybe need a temporary home, and 11-8-10 167 1 instead of an animal having to be locked up on a trailer, 2 malnourished and starved to death for two weeks, it should 3 have a good, safe home to come to until its permanent home 4 can be met to standards. And I'm not planning on charging 5 the county; I'm nonprofit. The money will come from 6 sponsors. And I didn't bring with me -- if I would have 7 known it was an issue on how many people are supporting, I've 8 got a stack of papers that I've asked for people to sign a 9 petition in support, and I've collected about 350 signatures 10 so far. And I've also put an open invitation to all the 11 neighbors that had any concerns or complaints to come 12 directly to me and ask to see how the facility works. Look 13 at my insurance policy, and if they had any questions, I was 14 more than happy to answer them. But I've yet to have anyone 15 come to me and say, "No, I don't like this." Everyone else 16 is so willing to stand behind somebody else, and say, "Oh, I 17 don't like it," but they're not willing to come up and see 18 the facts. They want to look at little half-truths that have 19 been lied, and false information that's been spread. And I 20 think when the truth comes out, it's going to go my way. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. Ma'am? 22 MS. VALDEZ: Yes. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Come forward. Give us your name and 24 address; tell us what you have to say about this issue. 25 MS. VALDEZ: Yes. My name is Mrs. Mary Alice 11-8-10 168 1 Valdez, and my husband and I have lived next door to the 2 Tumas for the past 43 years in peace and quiet. And I am 3 representing -- I have names and phone numbers of 11 4 neighbors around us that are all against these animals being 5 there. And, first of all, we only have four cats, and they 6 stay on my back deck, 'cause they're scared to death of those 7 tigers. They can hear them at night making all these weird 8 noises, and so they stay on our property; they don't go to 9 their property. And if they go to your property, you're free 10 to kill them. That doesn't matter to me, you know. But they 11 don't go to their property. That's a bunch of crap. And, 12 really, on the -- June 17th, my neighbor called me. My best 13 friend told me -- at Johnson R.V. Park, Lisa Cawthon, called 14 me, and she asked me, "My husband Tom wants to know if you're 15 going to take care of the tigers, bears, and cougars when 16 they go on vacation." 17 I asked her, "What are you talking about?" She 18 goes, "Your neighbors -- didn't you get the papers?" I said 19 no. I said, "We don't get the West Kerr Current." So, my 20 husband and my grandson, they ran to Ingram, and it was 21 pouring down rain. They bought the West Kerr Current, and 22 sure enough, here's a picture of the tigers and bears and 23 whatnot. And I started reading it. And to let you know, I 24 read the section where Mr. Tuma states that he's been in the 25 animal business for over 37 years. Excuse me. According to 11-8-10 169 1 the internet, he's only 37 years old, so that means he's been 2 doing business while he was still in his mama's womb? I 3 don't think so. A week later he tells the Kerrville Daily 4 Times he's been doing business for over 30 years. That means 5 he's been doing business for -- when he was seven years old. 6 These people lie a lot. 7 So you can tell -- see in the paper -- I got all my 8 papers, but all the neighbors around us that have kids, and 9 the ones that don't have kids, their kids do not want to go 10 out and play. And people that have little animals, they have 11 to keep them inside their houses. They're scared, 'cause 12 these animals -- we have been told by the Parks and Wildlife 13 in Austin, if they do escape -- and I don't want to be killed 14 by a tiger or a bear. I know we have to die sooner or later, 15 but the thought of being killed by one of those animals every 16 time we go out the back door -- my husband and I have goats, 17 and every time we go to their pen, I have to carry my rifle 18 or a pistol. And I tell my husband, "It's like living next 19 door to terrorists. You never know when they're going to tag 20 you." Unless you live next door to them, or any of the 21 other -- everybody's -- they're all mad. They're upset, and 22 they don't know, you know, who to go to, except to y'all. 23 This has to be done. 'Cause the only reason 24 Mr. Tuma and Mrs. Tuma are considering themselves a non -- a 25 sanctuary and the other word they called, so they can get all 11-8-10 170 1 these donations from all these rich people. They get all 2 these checks for them to buy food and whatnot, which this 3 money that they're going to be getting, they do not go buy 4 food at the feed store or at the H.E.B. All the locker 5 plants around Kerrville in Kerr County, they're donating all 6 the scraps and the bones, so all this money is going to be 7 going into their pocket. They're not going to turn that into 8 I.R.S. or anything like that. That's going to be free money 9 for them, but they don't care about the other people around 10 there. They just care about making money. That's all it is. 11 So, everybody is upset about this. It's -- something has to 12 be done, 'cause if you let them get away with it, you'll have 13 500 other people doing the same thing. "Oh, yeah, let's get 14 into the same business; we can get free money from all these 15 rich people," 'cause they donate to nonprofit organizations. 16 So, I -- something has to be done. You let them get away 17 with it, everybody else is going to want to do it. 18 And I assure you, sooner or later one of those 19 animals is going to get away, and it's going to kill my 20 husband or one of my grandkids or any of the other neighbor's 21 kids, and I assure you, if somebody gets killed from my 22 family, somebody is going to die. And it's not just going to 23 be one person; it's going to be three people are going to 24 die. I don't care if I have to go to prison or not, but if 25 somebody hurts my family, they're going to get hurt too. And 11-8-10 171 1 you do not want these animals roaming around people living in 2 their -- their houses. You go out the back door, you're 3 going to see a tiger coming behind you? Something has to be 4 done. So, you know, everybody is upset. I've got names of 5 11 people, neighbors that live around there I've got here, 6 and the phone numbers. Y'all can call them and you can talk 7 to them, and they're all upset. They don't want these 8 animals there. 'Cause you let them do it, everybody else is 9 going to want to do it just so they can get free money. 10 And already they come to -- they're going to take 11 care of the animals? They already had a bear that died, and 12 they had a bobcat that died. They're not doing a very good 13 job of taking care of those animals. Already, two died. 14 So -- and then every time an animal dies, you go up to the 15 back of our property, and whenever an animal dies, they throw 16 it back there, and you can smell it like crazy. It stinks, 17 stinks, stinks. And all this food that they're giving to her 18 wild animals, tigers and bears, everything that they eat, it 19 has to come out, and all that waste is going to go back into 20 the Johnson Creek. 'Cause every time we have a flood, the 21 water comes down the creek to their property, and it goes 22 back to Johnson Creek, and all that water is going to get 23 contaminated with all that waste from all those animals. 24 'Cause a tiger, he eats more than 100 pounds of food a day, 25 and all that -- what comes in comes out, and that's going to 11-8-10 172 1 contaminate the river. Once the river gets contaminated, 2 y'all cannot do anything to stop it. And I know I'm risking 3 my life and my husband's life. Probably one of these 4 mornings, we'll probably find out that we're being shot or 5 something while I'm talking to y'all right now. Really, 6 never know. No, really. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Valdez, was it your intention to 8 leave that list of folks with us today? 9 MS. VALDEZ: Yes. These are people you can call 10 that they're all upset, and they'll talk -- they're against 11 it. 12 AUDIENCE: Why aren't they here, then? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That's the list? Thank you, ma'am. 14 Is there anyone else -- I'm sorry, did you have anything more 15 to say? Is there anyone else that wishes to be heard? Yes, 16 ma'am? Come forward. Give us your name and address. 17 MS. LEITNER: Well, I am Anke Leitner. I think we 18 all know who I am. I'm the one whose tiger got out almost 19 two years ago. And there are a few things that I would like 20 to say, especially now, listening to everybody. I think we 21 have a personal feud going on between a few people. That's 22 why we even have all that issue going on here. Because when 23 my tiger got out, we know we had three public hearings, and 24 actually the only person that even ever showed up was 25 Mrs. Crenshaw, and she had to be reminded two times -- or, 11-8-10 173 1 actually, she had to have, I think, a personal phone call 2 from -- if I'm not mistaken, Bruce, you called her and did 3 tell her, "Hey, we have the third meeting this time. Please 4 show up if you have any concerns." 5 I mean, this is how concerned -- even the lady in 6 whose back yard my tiger ended up was -- you know. And, I 7 mean, it's like we all know that there are several records 8 that my tiger never showed any aggressions to anybody or 9 anything like that. There was never a threat to a person 10 besides her present, and I think, like, if we go back in all 11 those records, various law enforcement officers that were on 12 the scene always said, "Oh my god, she was so tame. She 13 did -- she was just lying there." So, I mean, it's like I 14 don't even think her getting out was a threat to the public. 15 Yes, she was there. She was easily guarded. She was 16 removed. She was kept -- the cage was brought up to 17 standards, so the whole issue is over. 18 What I am seeing today is one big problem. We are 19 trying to ban all animals. The way it's trying to be done, 20 that even existing animals that are in possession of people 21 that consider them -- you can call it whatever you want to; 22 pet, animals, whatever you guys want to call it, is being 23 threatened under one sentence that is in that ordinance, 24 which reads, Once a person's current certificate of 25 registration expires or is revoked, said person shall then be 11-8-10 174 1 prohibited from owning, keeping, possessing, confining, and 2 so on, having custody of an animal under the Health and 3 Safety Code, chapter -- and so on. Well, everybody's license 4 will expire within one year. So, basically, am I facing not 5 having my cat next year when my license comes back due? What 6 are the reasons that I would not have the right to possess -- 7 have my animal for another year with this part in the law? 8 In my personal opinion, this is a way out for the 9 county to basically remove all animals from the custody of 10 any person having an animal, and I think that is not correct. 11 Existing animals should be grandfathered for the time of 12 either however long they live, or the person moving out of 13 the county, taking them with you, not being allowed back into 14 the county. But on a yearly base, I don't think that is 15 correct. The next thing is, even if that would happen, what 16 happens to my animal? What sanctuary, which you guys are now 17 trying to disallow, is my animal going to go to? If every 18 county would think the same way, where would abandoned or 19 forced animals out of the custody from people go? If -- 20 let's say Kendall County would come up with the same 21 regulations; their sanctuary would be shut down, so what am I 22 supposed to do with my animal? Where am I supposed to donate 23 it? Where are supposed to old animals go, people that cannot 24 care for them any more, trying to turn them over voluntarily? 25 What about that? 11-8-10 175 1 I -- I think the safety of the cages should 2 definitely be considered. We all know my cat got out because 3 there was no roof on there. Everybody knows that I do have 4 an all-enclosed facility now. If the county wants to adopt 5 any kind of regulations, I think it should be towards safety 6 only, like, for example, asking people to put a roof onto the 7 cage. I perfectly see that. Because there might be a safety 8 issue, as we know as of mine, that she did escape without a 9 roof. But I think that's the only thing what the county 10 maybe should do, if any. Again, not all animals are 11 dangerous and aggressive. As you mentioned earlier, a friend 12 of you had a -- I guess -- no, what did they have? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Cougar. 14 MS. LEITNER: Cougar? You guys played with it. I 15 think every responsible animal owner will not let people near 16 them that are maybe endangered by the animals. For example, 17 in my case, I will not let any children near my cage, because 18 I think children should not be near any big cat. What else 19 was I wanting to say? I think I pretty much covered all what 20 I wanted to say. Like I said, I mean, in my personal 21 opinion, all this here is a personal thing against the Tumas. 22 And, you know, I mean, as actually you said earlier, we're 23 going to solve the problem by, you know, basically just 24 outlawing those big cats. I don't think that that's a 25 solution to the problem, because if everybody would do that, 11-8-10 176 1 I think we would have so many lost in 20 places, I mean, we 2 wouldn't even know what law is going to cover what. And I 3 think being faced with a problem, that's not meaning we're 4 just going to outlaw it, and this way it's taken care of. I 5 don't think this is the way it should be done. A problem 6 should be faced, worked at, and then, you know, we should do 7 appropriate actions to that. Thank you very much. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Leitner. Anyone else 9 wish to be heard on this item? 10 MS. TUMA: I just want a quick response. To let 11 County Commissioners know, all my waste management is all on 12 public record by T.C.E.Q. And as far as animal remains and 13 stuff, that also falls under T.C.E.Q., and it's all public 14 record. Four different agencies have already come out and 15 regulated me, and it's -- like I said, it's all public record 16 that I'm doing that all properly. It's been approved all the 17 way around. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 19 MR. HENNEKE: Judge, Commissioners, before we 20 adjourn, just to be on the record, it's patently untrue that 21 the Kerr County -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can't hear you. 23 MR. HENNEKE: It's patently untrue that a Kerr 24 County ordinance trumps federal law. If the U.S.D.A. or any 25 federal agency was going to regulate this, they would come in 11-8-10 177 1 and oversee and overstep what we're doing. So, let's make 2 sure that that fact doesn't get left out there. 3 MR. TUMA: Commissioners, actually call 4 Dr. Pannell. She'll tell you. 5 MS. TUMA: She'll tell you why she has not been 6 allowed out to our facility. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? Anybody else want to 8 weigh in on this issue? Any member of the Court have 9 anything further on this? Okay, let's close that chapter. 10 Let's pay the bills, gentlemen. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wow. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: We're there, Buster. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can't believe this. 14 AUDIENCE: Are you going to establish a public 15 hearing, Judge? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It wasn't on the agenda today. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We had one. But we had one. 18 AUDIENCE: No, you just had a beginning. It was a 19 good starter kit. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's see. We have a group 21 of bills here, and I think that we should pay them. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that a motion? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That certainly is. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion to pay the bills. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 11-8-10 178 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a motion and second to pay 2 the bills. Question or discussion? Sheriff? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, sir. No, my fence isn't 4 made to house wild and dangerous animals. (Laughter.) 5 MR. HENNEKE: Could be. You're getting 10-foot 6 razor wire. 7 MS. HYDE: Put a roof on it. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: What type of repair to one of the 9 new Tahoes required 835 bucks? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A deer. I think that one was 11 a deer -- yeah. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One of them wild and dangerous 14 Whitetail deer. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We have another one -- we have 17 another one that just occurred that's going to be about 2,200 18 bucks. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Another wild deer? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Another wild and dangerous 21 Whitetail deer. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Must have been during the rut. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It probably was. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe you need to paint 25 those trucks. 11-8-10 179 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Paint some Whitetail deer 2 around there. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or comments? 4 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 5 hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Budget 10 amendment. Looks like we have one to -- 11 MS. HARGIS: Actually, -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Just recognizing an income coming 13 over from the Schreiner Trust? 14 MS. HARGIS: -- we didn't budget the Schreiner 15 trust when we went through the budget process, and we are now 16 using that for one of the roads, Burr Road, so we need to 17 show that -- we have to have a resolution that you pass to 18 give to the banks so that they know we're -- we're using 19 those funds. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: And to bring that out of the trust 21 over into the budget? 22 MS. HARGIS: So -- 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're not using it -- 24 MS. HARGIS: We already have, yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: On which road? 11-8-10 180 1 MS. HARGIS: On Burr Road. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Burr Road. Burr Oak. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Burr Oak Road. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Oh, Burr Oak, okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So this will be on the next 6 agenda? 7 MS. HARGIS: So the 32,000 -- there is actually a 8 bill in the bills that you just paid for that. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question or comments? All 10 if favor -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait, question on that. On 12 that, though, if there's -- we haven't done a resolution, 13 have we? 14 MS. HARGIS: You don't have to do a resolution. 15 You just have to approve that it's part of our budget, and we 16 neglected to do that during the budget. Because I reminded 17 Leonard to bring -- you know, to bring it to the Court, and 18 he neglected to bring it to the Court, this part of road that 19 was to be completed, and there's no more money left to 20 complete it. And so because it's in Precinct 4, we used some 21 of that -- those funds. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have a problem. I'm 23 just concerned that doing a budget amendment's going to 24 change our budget. I mean, doing a -- it's going to 25 really -- it's going to do everything? 11-8-10 181 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, this merely is an 2 order from the Court to let them release that money, right? 3 MS. HARGIS: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But this is -- this is just a 5 budget amendment. There's no order. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, it brings the funds into the 7 budget to cover the expenses. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, it moves the money from 9 the -- it may move the money, but I thought that whenever we 10 use the Schreiner Trust, we had to -- you know, action to use 11 the Schreiner Trust for a certain purpose. I didn't think we 12 just -- 13 MS. HARGIS: We've just used it as a budget -- in 14 the budget process before. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're saying come back next 16 time and approve the actual payment? But we just did that. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, approve the using -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Approve using the money out 19 of the trust. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Before you incur a bill. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought we always authorized 24 before. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Before you incur a bill? 11-8-10 182 1 You can't get the work done unless you've got the money to do 2 it. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You have an estimate on what 4 the work was going to cost, how much you were going to use of 5 it. 'Cause we're going to be using some more of it for 6 another project. 7 MS. HARGIS: Well, we need to come back with a 8 resolution on all of it. I didn't know -- I only know about 9 one, so we need to -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We've always done those. You 11 know, this money's coming -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Research it and see how we've done 13 that, and let's -- 14 MS. HARGIS: We just did it through the budget last 15 year, because we designated two roads to be done, and that's 16 how we did it. But -- and then they just took a copy of our 17 minutes. But I'll check with the bank and make sure that's 18 proper. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, we've got to approve 20 the amendment to bring the income in out of the Schreiner 21 Trust, then, in order to be able to expend it on the bills 22 that have already been approved? 23 MS. HARGIS: We have some money in the bank account 24 currently today. We have about 65,000, so we don't have to 25 actually pull any money down from the Schreiner Road Trust. 11-8-10 183 1 We actually have money in the account that's come over from 2 prior years that we didn't spend, so this is money that's 3 already in our possession. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: And what we can do is reimburse -- 5 go ahead and pay the Burr Oak Road bills that were shown in 6 the roster of bills, and reimburse back to our own budget to 7 cover those? 8 MS. HARGIS: We can do that. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 10 MS. HARGIS: If that's what the Court wants to do. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Any late bills? 12 MS. HARGIS: Yes. And you have in front of you an 13 insurance bill that did not get completely -- when the bills 14 were being done, they didn't include them all, so if you want 15 to pass those around? The -- only the front cover page was 16 picked up when they were doing the insurance. This is our 17 annual property insurance, and we do put this out by 18 department. That's the reason why it's broken out. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: And the total amount of the late 20 bill, as per this detail, is 92,356 to Texas Association of 21 Counties for various insurance on -- on our various 22 facilities? 23 MS. HARGIS: That's correct. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 11-8-10 184 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 4 approval of the late bills as indicated. Question or 5 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 6 your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign? 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. I've been 11 presented with monthly reports from Kerr County Payroll, 12 October 2010; Constable, Precinct 1; County Clerk; Constable, 13 Precinct 4, for September and October 2010; J.P., Precinct 3; 14 and Environmental Health Department. Do I hear a motion that 15 those bills as -- or those reports as enumerated be approved? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 19 approval of the enumerated reports. Question or discussion? 20 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 21 hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Okay, let's 11-8-10 185 1 go to reports from Commissioners in connection with their 2 liaison or other assignments. Commissioner Baldwin? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I have a 4 county-wide ESD meeting tomorrow morning. That's all. 5 That's all you get. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: We can't sneak in on it, because you 7 won't give us the details, right? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely not. This is 9 mine. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. All right. Commissioner 11 Williams? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is for mitigating 13 septics, as they're identified by our Environmental Health 14 Department. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How much is it? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 250,000. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: 250,000. Department of Rural 18 Affairs. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does that include the 20 hookups when you get the new system in? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, it's different. This 22 is a new grant -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- related to -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: The good Commissioner 2 has been 11-8-10 186 1 sniffing out money. Anything else, Commissioner? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, sir. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just briefly, the -- I hate to 5 even bring this up today, but the Hill Country County 6 Coalition group met Friday. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We don't care. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I didn't -- I was not present 9 at the meeting. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're not going to do 11 those two in the same day? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was not present at the 13 meeting, but I sent them an e-mail that I think -- I just 14 want to let the Court know what I told them. I said that it 15 was my feeling that Kerr County was not going to pursue any 16 county authority legislation this session. That was my view. 17 And I -- my feeling was that the Court had that same feeling; 18 that there were other issues that were more pressing to Kerr 19 County at the moment, being power lines, water issues, and 20 just trying to solve budget problems. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: You didn't tell them the legislation 22 regarding lions, tigers, and bears was -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Didn't talk about that. But I 24 said that -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Probably should have brought 11-8-10 187 1 that up, too. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought it was worthwhile for 3 them to have some dialogue, but I didn't see us signing onto 4 anything related to county authority, though I hope that the 5 group as a whole tracks it, because I do know some bills will 6 be filed that may have an impact on us. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's it. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why didn't you make that 10 announcement when the McDowells were leaving the meeting 11 upstairs? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think they know. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: After all, I put the lions 14 and tigers and cats on so we could get chewed on. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner 4? You feel like 17 you've been chewed on by lions, tigers, and bears all at the 18 same time? 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I heard enough about them 20 today, and I see that on the way home every day, and every 21 day when I go to town, I drive right by it. All the 22 electrical stuff has been removed from the old outdoor arena, 23 and it is ready for Kendnel Kasper to tear it down. And the 24 stuff has been -- the stuff 4-H has stored has been 25 transferred to the new storage underneath the new press box. 11-8-10 188 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The lights, correct? 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Primarily the lights. Mainly 3 poles and barrels and stuff, just their stuff. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This goes underneath. And 6 the lights and stuff are all on pallets, and some of these 7 lights are good lights. I think there's 10 of them I counted 8 that look pretty good. But that's also an issue that we'll 9 address at a later time, whether we want to help -- if we're 10 going to get serious about pursuing the -- the covering of 11 the arena is one thing, but if we're not, then we need to 12 talk about lights. We sure don't need to be talking about 13 lights if we're going to pursue covering the arena. We don't 14 want to waste a bunch of money. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Elected officials? Department 18 heads? Were you waving yes, or are you hiding? 19 MS. HYDE: I'm waving. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, come on. Ladies first. 21 You better hurry; you're going to get taken out of turn here. 22 MS. HYDE: Please make sure that Cheryl gets one. 23 You've already got one. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I've already got one? 25 MS. HYDE: No. No, he's already got one. It's 11-8-10 189 1 just that checklist that y'all asked for, and it's very 2 small. I've tried to blow it up and I can't, and it wouldn't 3 go through to y'all's e-mail, so I burned a copy of it. That 4 way y'all would have it. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can't read it. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What -- tell me what this 7 is. 8 MS. HYDE: It's the checklist that you requested 9 regarding the things that we look at for the insurance. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Remember, I requested that she 11 give -- Mr. Looney give us his criteria, his list for his 12 criteria so we know what he was evaluating policies on. 13 MS. HYDE: I'll try to blow it up so it's bigger. 14 It's just not working well, and John's been a little bit busy 15 with the phone system. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. All right. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that it? 18 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hargis? 20 MS. HARGIS: I just -- I know this is probably not 21 necessarily a good thing, but -- or a bad thing, but this 22 morning as I came to work, there was a really bad motorcycle 23 accident in front of the little store there in Ingram. And I 24 was there before the ambulances, and I will say they sent a 25 -- the City of Kerrville sent an ambulance. They sent the 11-8-10 190 1 rescue truck and all the things that the Fire Chief said they 2 would send. They were coming; I had to pull off the road for 3 them, and then two D.P.S. But I don't know how it happened, 4 but the person didn't look like they were in too good of 5 shape when I pulled off. But they did respond very well, and 6 as a resident of that area, it's comforting to me to know 7 that they come that quickly. So, I just thought I'd tell 8 you. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It did turn out to be a 10 fatality. 11 MS. HARGIS: Oh, it did? I was afraid of that. 12 MR. TROLINGER: I understand the Sheriff had a 13 little bit of complaining to do about the phone system this 14 morning, and I wanted to make sure y'all knew that we are 15 addressing each problem as we receive it, and we're fixing 16 them. But there's a little bit of communications -- problems 17 with the communications, so we're working that out this 18 morning. And I.T., we did get the complaints about the 19 problem over the weekend with the phones, and I want to 20 assure you that whether it's 2 a.m. or 2 p.m., we'll take 21 care of the problem. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Is this a provider issue that may 23 not be inherent in our system, but because of whoever is -- 24 is the source for our service? Or do we know? 25 MR. TROLINGER: I think this morning, the problem 11-8-10 191 1 was at 7:26 a.m. during that accident that Ms. Hargis 2 referred to, one of the troopers tried to call on a cell 3 phone. The dispatcher at Dispatch 1 was not able to answer 4 the call because of whatever reason, and the dispatcher at 5 Dispatch 2 was not able to answer the call, so they called 6 back on the caller ID to the trooper, and placed the call, 7 and it went through successfully. That's the most current 8 problem. And I think that was either a combination of cell 9 phone and the phone at dispatch, or -- but whichever, we're 10 going to replace the phone on Dispatch 2, 'cause it's caused 11 us two problems in two weeks like that. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Rusty's shaking his head that it's 13 all your fault. 14 MR. TROLINGER: It is. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My issue is that this hasn't 16 just been this week. 17 MR. TROLINGER: I just wanted to make this 18 statement. I didn't mean to get the Sheriff involved in a 19 conversation about it, I'm sorry. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Good try. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But he did. My issue is, real 22 quick -- if you don't mind, Mr. Garcia -- is that this has 23 been constant since the system was installed. I think we've 24 already replaced phones. Replaced phones. Phones lock up; 25 they have to unplug them and let them reset. This is the -- 11-8-10 192 1 without getting too upset over this, this has been the 2 biggest joke and ridiculous phone system I've ever seen in my 3 life, and I'm afraid it's going to cost somebody a life or 4 anything else that we cannot get a phone call. The trooper 5 just said -- and his response was every time he calls, it 6 seemed like the system was hanging up on him. That was just 7 this weekend. That's early this morning during that 8 fatality. It is constant. Every day there have been 9 problems after problems. I will be more than happy to print 10 out every help desk e-mail that we have sent in about this 11 phone system, okay? And I'm not saying it's John's problem. 12 I don't know what it is, but it doesn't work, and it's a 13 dangerous situation. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My question is, John, is -- 15 has Hill Country Telephone -- do they have every truck and 16 employee they have out there fixing this thing? 17 MR. TROLINGER: Well, when it's their problem. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If they don't, they need to. 19 MR. TROLINGER: When it's a long distance problem 20 or a Hill Country Telephone problem, they work on it. When 21 someone calls in, they have a scratchy cell phone connection 22 or a dropped call, we can't do a whole lot about that, so I 23 don't complain to the cell phone company. But these are all 24 things that happened before. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, they weren't things that 11-8-10 193 1 happened before. We didn't have dropped calls. We didn't 2 have scratchy calls. We didn't have people saying that they 3 couldn't get through, that the system was hanging up on them. 4 We have it now. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is it Hill Country Telephone 6 Company? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't know. I'm told -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who works on your system? 9 Hill Country Telephone? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I.T. Okay? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it -- 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: These are computerized phones 13 like here. It's everywhere. And what I'm -- what I'm being 14 told is they're changing out the phones. Now, to be very 15 plain and simple, when they were going through the install, 16 the phone company that was taking out phones and changing 17 phones and everything said the phones that we are currently 18 putting in were extremely sub par to the phones that we had. 19 And we are having constant problems with these phones, 20 gentlemen. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you putting in the same 22 phones in the Sheriff's Department as have already been put 23 in the courthouse? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 25 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. 11-8-10 194 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They agree. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That explains it. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Excuse me. Mr. Garcia, you have the 4 floor, sir. 5 MR. GARCIA: All right, thank you. I just want to 6 inform -- 7 MR. TROLINGER: Thank you, Sheriff. 8 MR. GARCIA: Gentlemen, we are -- the Environmental 9 Health is commencing a Kerr County nuisance abatement on an 10 address of 527 Mountain Drive. Nuisance abatement program is 11 commenced today. You will get your copies. And also one 12 other note. The Dallas Cowboys have fired Wade Phillips. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that true? Is that true? 14 It's about damn time. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What a bummer. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What about Texas? 17 MS. HYDE: Hey. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Really. Really. 19 MS. HYDE: Whoa. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't want that to happen. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They beat Missouri. 22 MS. HYDE: I don't -- I haven't said anything. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bruce, any team on earth, a 24 guy would throw four interceptions would sit down. I can 25 tell you, he will sit down. Not that kid over there. I 11-8-10 195 1 mean, they just keep throwing him back in there. God, did 2 they really fire him? That's the best news I've had in 3 months. 4 MS. PIEPER: I did want to make a comment about the 5 phone system, Rusty. There's light at the end of the tunnel. 6 We all went through that. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We had over a year left in our 8 -- or about a year left in our current contract. I said I 9 did not want to go to this phone system, and I stood before 10 this Court, if we were going to have these kind of problems. 11 Okay? Ours -- number one, I can't afford dropped calls in 12 dispatch. I can't afford phones freezing up and you have to 13 unplug them. I can't afford to have dispatch not be able to 14 answer a phone when it's sitting there ringing, you know, or 15 people are telling me and calling me personally and saying, 16 "I called your office and it rang at least 20 times, and 17 nobody ever answered it." I don't know what to do. I have 18 no control over it, because it's all with I.T. And all we're 19 getting is, "We're working on it." 20 JUDGE TINLEY: If we were to turn over the 21 technical aspects of that phone system to you, could you do a 22 better job than I.T.? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would go right back to the 24 phone company and redo the negotiation and the contract we 25 had that wasn't expired, that gave us a reliable system. 11-8-10 196 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, Rusty, the problem -- I 2 mean, you said it's -- you got a year left. Well, then your 3 problem would have been just postponed for a year. The 4 problem needs to be solved. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But when we were going to it, 6 I said I didn't want to go to it if we were going to have 7 these problems. Everybody at the courthouse heard it, okay? 8 I had no problem with the contract we had. But they decided 9 -- 'cause their people decided that we needed to go to a 10 computer type phone, okay, and now I've got all kinds of 11 problems with what I've been told by the professional is a 12 sub-perior phone than what we've ever had. Why did we step 13 down to save money on long distance and cause this? That's 14 where I have an issue. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think the answer that we 16 need to find out is that -- I mean, I don't think it was 17 switching to the system. Maybe switching to -- maybe the 18 wrong phone was chosen. I'm suspecting that -- 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You very well may be right. I 20 haven't been told anything that it's Hill Country's problem 21 or Windstream's problem. It's internally. It's -- evidently 22 with these phones, he can log into his computer over there 23 and change anything in the world that he wants to do, okay? 24 We've come in -- and these are things that I'm not 25 complaining about, although they happened, where you come in 11-8-10 197 1 Monday morning and all your phones have a different ring-tone 2 to them, because somebody over the weekend decided to get on 3 his I.T. computer and reset the ring-tones to all our phones. 4 Okay? I -- I'm not in the business that we can afford to 5 have that type of risk. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. We just need to figure 7 out -- does someone need to be in the room with you and John? 8 I ask somewhat seriously, 'cause obviously he's irritated and 9 you're irritated. We need to get it fixed. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I brought it to the 11 Court because I am at my wit's end, okay? And I do need this 12 Court's help to get us a reliable phone system in the 13 Sheriff's Office. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Bruce? You're the 15 liaison. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sounds like it goes back 17 to -- 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It goes back to the -- 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Lions and tigers and the 21 Sheriff. (Laughter.) 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about the Ed Reaves 23 contract that we approved this morning? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That won't help here. I went 25 through his school. 11-8-10 198 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, are we all done? No, we're 2 not done. We need to -- 3 MS. HYDE: No. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: We need to set a meeting for the 5 15th. 6 MS. HYDE: A time. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: It seems that there's a commitment 8 for the morning; we can't have our meeting in the morning. 9 Therefore, it needs to be in the afternoon. What's the 10 Court's pleasure? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got 10 o'clock written 12 down. Why -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, it was set for that time, but 14 -- but there's a problem with the Airport Board. Kathy is at 15 the Airport Board, and they have a master plan meeting at 16 10:30 in the morning. And they have the master plan aviation 17 guru of the planet that's going to be there to graciously 18 give them a few moments of his time; that's the only time he 19 can be there. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And you're telling me 21 that -- you're asking me if I give a crap about that, or 22 what? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm asking you what time in the 24 afternoon do you want to meet? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 1:30? 1:00? 11-8-10 199 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's really epic. 2 MS. PIEPER: 1:30. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: 1:30? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 1:30's fine with me. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: 1:30. We'll nail it down for 1:30. 6 I'll rework my juvies. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is for a vote canvass? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, yeah, we got to do the vote -- 9 did we already post it on a vote canvass? 10 MS. PIEPER: I'm sorry? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Did we already post for the vote 12 canvass? 13 MS. PIEPER: We haven't posted on a vote canvass 14 yet; we'll do that at 1:30 also. You said the 15th? Yes. 15 MS. GRINSTEAD: I told Nadene the time would have 16 to change. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 MS. HYDE: Did you say you're adjourned? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I haven't yet. 20 MS. HYDE: I didn't think so. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: But now we're adjourned. 22 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 3:27 p.m.) 23 - - - - - - - - - - - 24 25 11-8-10 200 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 official reporter for the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 12th day of November, 8 2010. 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11-8-10