1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, February 28, 2011 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 GUY R. OVERBY, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X February 28,2011 2 PAGE 3 --- Commissioners' Comments 6 4 1.1 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on proclamation for Partners in Ministry's Community 5 Service Infusion (CSI) Day 9 6 1.2 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve Correctional Healthcare Management's 7 proposed mental health services for Kerr County inmates 10 8 1.4 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 9 revisiting renovation and expansion of Hill Country Exhibit Center "Master Plan Concept" 10 that includes Ag Barn facility and potential development of Kerr County property located at 11 3705 Hwy 27 14 12 1.3 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to modify/change policy regarding type of security 13 (commissioned certified peace officer or commissioned security officer) that must be 14 present for events at Youth Exhibit Center 32 15 1.5 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to present preliminary revision of plat for Tract 16 16-B of Silver Hills Subdivision; set a public hearing for revision of plat, Precinct 2 45 17 1.6 Public Hearing for adoption of new Flood Damage 18 Prevention Order, Precincts 1, 2, 3 and 4 48 19 1.9 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to request that the Human Resources Department give 20 update on total county employment and differentiate between county employees and other personnel that 21 receive HR services 48 22 1.7 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action for final approval of Flood Damage Prevention Order, 23 Precincts 1, 2, 3 and 4 53 24 1.8 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to go out for annual bids for road base, cold mix, 25 aggregate, emulsion oil, & corrugated metal pipe 56 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) February 28, 2011 2 PAGE 1.18 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 3 accomplish preliminary functions preparatory to construction of a fire station on Ranchero Road 4 in Kerrville South, including, but not limited to preliminary site plan, proposed floor plan & other 5 improvements, proposed type of construction and other matters preliminary to authorization of 6 formal plans, specifications & construction 57 7 4.1 Pay bills 61 4.2 Budget Amendments 61 8 4.3 Late Bills 62 4.4 Approve and accept Monthly Reports 66 9 1.10 Presentation by Steve Stoutamire regarding 10 closing of eastern portion of Camp Verde Road and the impact of that on historical significance 11 of area 68 12 1.11 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on presentation from Felipe Jimenez representing 13 Saint Christopher Properties, LLC, on expansion and development of Camp Verde Restaurant and 14 comments on the request to close Camp Verde Road 79 15 1.12 Public hearing regarding action to close, vacate, abandon and/or discontinue all of Camp Verde Rd. 16 from FM 480 to Hwy 173 pursuant to the Texas Transportation Code 133 17 1.13 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 18 close, vacate, abandon, and/or discontinue all of Camp Verde Rd. from FM 480 to Hwy 173 pursuant 19 to Texas Transportation Code 171 20 1.14 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to determine that highway right-of-way real property 21 owned by Kerr County underlying former Camp Verde Road from FM 480 to Hwy 173 is no longer needed 22 for a highway right-of-way purpose --- 23 1.15 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to begin process to sell real property owned by 24 Kerr County underlying former Camp Verde Road from FM 480 to Hwy 173 pursuant to Texas Local 25 Government Code; authorization to expend funds to publish notice & appoint appraiser --- 4 1 I N D E X (Continued) February 28, 2011 2 PAGE 1.16 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action 3 regarding possible litigation regarding Ingram Lake/Bill Vlasek issue (Executive Session) 175 4 3.1 Action as may be required on matters discussed 5 in Executive Session 176 6 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee Assignments 177 7 5.2 Reports from Elected Officials/Department Heads 177 8 1.17 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on possible acquisition of land from Ingram VFD 9 for new Ingram Annex (Executive Session) 194 10 --- Adjourned 194 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 On Monday, February 28, 2011, at 9:00 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 8 Let me call to order this regularly scheduled meeting of the 9 Kerr County Commissioners Court posted and scheduled for this 10 date and time, Monday, February 28th, 2011, at 9 a.m. It is 11 that time now. Commissioner Letz? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would everyone please stand, 13 join me in a moment of prayer, followed by the pledge. 14 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: At this time, if there's any member 16 of the public or the audience that wishes to be heard on a 17 matter which is not a listed agenda item, this is your 18 opportunity to come forward and tell us what's on your mind. 19 If you wish to be heard on an agenda item, we would ask that 20 you fill out a participation form. There should be some 21 located at the rear of the room. That helps me to understand 22 that there is someone that wishes to be heard on that 23 particular item, and hopefully not miss you when we get to 24 that item. However, if we get to an agenda item that you 25 wish to be heard on and you haven't filed a participation 2-28-11 6 1 form, get my attention in some manner. I'll give you the 2 opportunity to be heard. But right now, if there's anybody 3 that wishes to be heard on any matter which is not a listed 4 agenda item, this is your opportunity to come forward and 5 tell us what's on your mind. Seeing no one coming forward, 6 it looks like we'll move on. Commissioner Letz? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the only comments I 8 have today is the -- one of my favorite times of year is 9 right around the corner, baseball, and youth baseball is 10 getting started all over the county. And all four of our 11 Little League complexes are on State Highway 27, so as people 12 go through Ingram, Kerrville, Center Point, and Comfort, be 13 aware; when kids are chasing a foul ball or something, they 14 kind of don't watch where they're going sometimes. All the 15 leagues put some fencing there to protect them, but still, a 16 lot of traffic slows down around those areas. Just be aware 17 as you're going through or around those Little League fields 18 for the next couple months. That's it. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Oehler? 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Had a lot of prescribed burns 21 going on in my area over the last two to three weeks, and 22 gotten a lot of country burned. And so far, knock on wood, 23 they haven't gotten away, to my knowledge. I think we've had 24 a couple of other small fires. But the country's going to be 25 better off for it in a lot of ways. Of course, it does 2-28-11 7 1 create some smoke, and there are people that have called and 2 complained about that a little bit. But, anyway, that -- 3 that being said, that's a good thing. We need some rain, a 4 lot of it. We're not going to have much of a spring; the 5 flowers are going to be pretty short. That's it. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Buster, before you -- going 7 back under the burning, at the last court we authorized some 8 -- the County Judge or County Attorney and myself to finalize 9 some language with NRCS. We are finalizing that today. 10 Visited with NRCS several times, going through some changes. 11 It's going to be a little bit stricter than it has in the 12 past. Guidelines have been a little bit clearer. We visited 13 with Joe Franklin, who's really technically head over this 14 area of prescribed burns, out of San Angelo. All that 15 paperwork will be available by the end of today at the NRCS 16 office and Jody's office, and it'll kind of give you -- those 17 that are going to do prescribed burns a little more 18 information-type packet that explains exactly what's going to 19 be required of them. That's it. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Baldwin? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I don't have 22 anything. Thank you very much. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Overby? 24 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Judge Tinley, again, we have 25 a good group of folks here this morning. Again, a reminder 2-28-11 8 1 that this Thursday is our weatherization program application 2 at the Hill Country Ag Barn, Youth Exhibit -- Exhibition 3 Center. That's, again, at 3705 Highway 27. Again, this is 4 assisted by our Alamo Area Council of Governments program. I 5 will say to the Commissioners and the Judge, we've had a lot 6 of applications already picked up, and the interest is high 7 for this process. Again, the program is designed to help 8 low-income people, particularly the elderly and handicapped, 9 overcome the high cost of energy through the installation of 10 weatherization, of energy conservation measures at no cost, 11 so be sure that you hand out your applications; tell a 12 friend, again, from 2:00 to 7:00 on Thursday, the 13 weatherization program. And nothing would please us more, I 14 know, as a Commissioners Court than to see folks take 15 advantage of this money that's been designated for Kerr 16 County, and to help some folks that need those assistance. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner, renters are also 18 eligible for that; is that correct? 19 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Yes, sir, that is correct. 20 2:00 to 7:00 Thursday. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else? 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's it. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's get on with our agenda. 24 We've got kind of a packed agenda today, judging from the 25 number of folks we have here present. Item Number 1 is to 2-28-11 9 1 consider, discuss, take appropriate action on proclamation 2 for Partners in Ministry's Community Service Infusion Day. 3 This particular activity is one that Partners in Ministry 4 began a number of years ago. I believe this is the fifth 5 year that Partners in Ministry has had this volunteer 6 program. It evolved in some sort of -- kind of a competition 7 with various teams from various groups to be participating in 8 it and helping those folks who are less able to help 9 themselves with clean-ups, fix-ups, things of that nature. 10 And the folks from -- from Partners in Ministry have asked 11 the Court to adopt a proclamation or resolution in support of 12 their activities in that regard, and it's before you. I will 13 read the proclamation or resolution into the record. 14 "Whereas, C.S.I., Kerr County Community Service 15 Infusion, is in its fifth year of helping neighbors in need, 16 and will take place March 26, 2011; and whereas, this 17 county-wide day of community service provides help to those 18 in need in our community with minor home repairs, painting, 19 yard cleanup, housecleaning, window washing and more; and 20 whereas, Partners in Ministry is asking for teams of 21 volunteers to serve our neighbors in the community or to 22 submit a project for review; and whereas, this year the goal 23 is to have 400 volunteers participate in Community Service 24 Infusion; and whereas, the Community Service Infusion Day 25 initiative of Partners in Ministry is working as a community 2-28-11 10 1 for the community; now, therefore, be it resolved that the 2 Commissioners Court of Kerr County, Texas do hereby honor 3 Partners in Ministry and the volunteers for their hours of 4 hard work and dedication to the community through their 5 C.S.I. Kerr County program. Passed and adopted this 28th day 6 of February, 2011." Do I hear a motion for adoption of the 7 resolution/proclamation? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Move -- move so, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 11 adoption. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 12 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Let's move to 17 Item 2; to consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 18 approve Correctional Healthcare Management's proposed mental 19 health services for Kerr County inmates. Sheriff Hierholzer? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, this is kind of coming 21 because of a lot of different things. One, I know y'all have 22 spent some time at the Legislature, as well as I have, and 23 see what this year's budget's going to probably do to us. 24 They're looking at cutting 228 million out of mental health 25 services for the state. They're looking at closing one 2-28-11 11 1 prison unit. They're looking at releasing 30 percent of the 2 mental health patients in our prison units. I currently have 3 16 parole violators in jail, and 35 violation of probation. 4 Just in the last few weeks, our population's gone up over 140 5 again, and I don't see this doing anything but getting a lot 6 more severe. Our mental health patients that we actually 7 have in jail has drastically gone up in the last number of 8 months. Mental health -- state mental health is taking an 9 attitude that even if they are their clients, once they go to 10 jail, they're no longer their clients; they're the counties' 11 responsibility until such time as they're released from jail. 12 So, that goes back to prescription medication needs. So, I 13 got a proposal from C.H.M., which is our health care provider 14 for the inmates that we contracted with a number of years 15 ago. 16 The start of the proposal, what they feel in all 17 the jails that they do would be adequate for now would be 18 three hours per month on site, 24/7 on-call psychiatrist to 19 be able to prescribe the medications and take care of a lot 20 of those needs. Currently, for right now, that cost would be 21 15,500 a year, prorated for the remainder of this year, which 22 would be somewhat less. So, I'm asking that we be able to do 23 this. I think we're going to have to. Now, the one benefit 24 is I don't see it costing the taxpayers of this county any 25 money. In our inmate trust fund, inmate commissary account, 2-28-11 12 1 the proceeds that we make off of it, in reading the law on 2 that, it does say that we can provide services of -- of 3 health to the inmates out of that cost. I do have the funds 4 in that account to be able to pay the -- the additional cost 5 for our contract out of that, which is what I would recommend 6 me being able to do. I see that account being able to 7 probably cover it for each year hereafter, but in case it 8 didn't, we'd have to come back to the Court for it. But I'd 9 primarily try and get that paid for out of the inmate 10 commissary account. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, there are some prescription 12 meds that are included within this amendment covering these 13 mental health services? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. They -- they will do all 15 the -- their psychiatrist will do the prescribing, okay? In 16 changing medical doctors that we have in the last year, our 17 actual prescriptions -- and not in our prior one or anything, 18 but our prescription medication has dropped down from about 19 6,000 a month to about 400 to 500 a month, so that's in using 20 generics and different things. So, that has -- has freed up 21 a lot of available funds in that contract to be able to cover 22 some of these psychotropic drugs. Because, unfortunately, 23 some of these drugs are -- you don't get generics for, and 24 some of them, you know, that we have had to pay for in the 25 past may go up to 1,000 a week. 2-28-11 13 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sheriff, in the past, have we 2 been just using our regular medical staff for this service? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We haven't done anything -- 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We were using -- we had a 6 meeting with them. And when I got to looking at some of that 7 in the contract, even though they've been doing it, it 8 doesn't necessarily cover a lot of the psychiatric stuff that 9 I think we need covered. So, I asked them for a -- and with 10 seeing what's coming down the pike for us, I asked them for a 11 specific one that would give us that coverage, and also still 12 include all that under their liability, not ours. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, this is just expanding the 14 service with our existing contractor? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It is expanding the service 16 for the existing contract. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't think we have a 19 choice, unfortunately. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: The indications are that we are 21 going to see more and more activity from advocacy groups with 22 respect to trying to call more attention and require more 23 treatment for mentally ill people, and I think this -- this 24 is just part of an overall push that -- that we're going to 25 have to be faced with, win, lose, or draw. 2-28-11 14 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, unfortunately. Now, 2 there are some laws on the books that say anybody with mental 3 health issues, or -- or deemed should not be incarcerated in 4 jail, and technically should be out of jail within 72 hours. 5 There's a bill before the Legislature now that says 48 hours. 6 But with them shutting down prison units and cutting mental 7 health, mental retardation -- or M.H.M.R. budgets that 8 drastically, you know, I mean, it's very obvious where these 9 people are going to end up, unfortunately. They're going to 10 end up in our jail, and they should not be there. I'll fight 11 that tooth and nail, but we don't have a choice, and we're 12 going to have to be prepared for it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll move approval of the 14 agenda item, the annual cost of $15,500, with the funds to 15 come from the -- 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- commissary funds. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second for 19 approval as indicated. Question or discussion? All in favor 20 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let's go to 25 Item 4, if we might; consider, discuss, and take appropriate 2-28-11 15 1 action on revisiting the renovation and expansion of the Hill 2 Country Exhibit Center "Master Plan Concept" that includes Ag 3 Barn facility and potential development of Kerr County 4 property located at 3705 Highway 27. Commissioner Overby? 5 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Thank you, Judge and 6 Commissioners. And, again, bringing to you today a project 7 that you have seen before you many times. I know that, 8 Commissioner Oehler and Commissioner Letz, you sit on our Ag 9 Barn committee, and we appreciate your guidance in that area 10 as far as our Ag Barn is concerned. The presentation we have 11 before the Commissioners today, and our citizens today, of 12 course, is looking at the revisiting of the expansion and the 13 renovation of the Hill Country Exhibit Center, also known as 14 the Ag Barn facility located on 3705 Highway 27. Again, the 15 reason why we need to explore the option is we've had several 16 folks look at was there another alternative to look at in our 17 community besides the discussion of having a convention 18 center, which seems to purely have run its course over the 19 last two years. One of the things, of course, about the 20 convention center idea that was discussed in the community 21 was, of course, the cost of it was exorbitant. Estimations 22 on that project were between 34 and 40 million dollars. And 23 so, again, another place looking at the Ag Barn facility as 24 an expansion opportunity, and exploring this as an economic 25 development project is back on the burner again for people to 2-28-11 16 1 explore. 2 My reason for putting this on the Commissioners 3 Court agenda today is to look at -- to have what direction 4 that you would want me to go to explore this project, find 5 out what community interest is out there. I do want to point 6 out that the possibility of this project moving forward to -- 7 to be successful, to have an Ag Barn expansion of this 8 facility out there will require a public/private partnership 9 in order to be successful. Again, and to also identify what 10 potential sources or resources that we could have in the 11 community to see if this project is -- is a possibility. 12 Want to make sure we also re-energize, again, this is not a 13 County-funded project totally. I want to make sure that's 14 clarified. A lot of times we get things that are reported in 15 different times than things are. This is, again, 16 public/private partnership would have to be in order for this 17 presentation to be successful -- this project to be 18 successful. 19 Before you up here on your deal, I just want to 20 kind of do a little review of the -- of the facility, the 21 layout. If you're new to our area, and for our folks that 22 are here, again, looking at the facility here, this is a 23 potential, just kind of a schematic drawing of an 24 architectural view. This was done in 2008, and was done by 25 our Commissioners Court. I think it's interesting to note 2-28-11 17 1 that the scope of this project is very similar since 2002. 2 We've talked about it in different ways. There have been 3 different phases; concepts have been discussed, but it's been 4 very similar as far as discussion is concerned as we were 5 looking at this project. The next phase up there you see, of 6 course, we have -- we show our -- our existing indoor arena. 7 Again, our pig barn area there, which is the original one 8 that we've all seen, that building is in the -- it's 9 definitely in its last years of facility there. And, again, 10 we have the outdoor arena that we're going to talk about here 11 in a second. 12 Let's go ahead and go to the next phase, if we 13 will. This is just a drawing here of a potential show barn. 14 This would basically be the facility if this project was to 15 ever move forward and we could identify sources of funding, 16 and the community's interest is important that they see this 17 as a need. The show barn actually would be a 45,000 square 18 foot facility that would replace the old pig barn area, or 19 the original building that we have out there would go away. 20 This facility here, if designed and built, would be -- we 21 would want to have it something similar like you have at the 22 AT&T Center, where you can have -- it's not built like -- 23 it's not going to have basketball teams in there, but it can 24 be used for multiple uses where you could have animals shown, 25 where you can have presentations and associational meetings 2-28-11 18 1 and those type of things. We need to make sure that we have 2 that ability so it can be interchangeable in those things. 3 Another thing as far as the show barn I want to 4 mention at the same time, the idea and design of that, it 5 would be important that we look at -- as we look at restrooms 6 and storage in that facility, that we also think about the 7 possibility of some showers that might be built towards the 8 back end of that facility in order that we might pursue an 9 option to see if it could be used as an emergency shelter 10 from hurricane evacuations down the road. I will let you 11 know that we would want to look at and explore all of our 12 grant applications. I do want you to know that this 13 Commissioners Court up here has already been looking at some 14 of those applications this year, and unfortunately, because 15 of funding, some of those grant requests, like the Texas 16 Parks and Wildlife program typically in the past would help 17 in some of those renovation grants, are very dried up this 18 year. In fact, in the state of Texas, only $416,000 are 19 available in the program entirely this year, so I doubt very 20 seriously we'll look at any funds coming from there. There 21 are other opportunities that we would want to explore, such 22 as FEMA, that might be able to help in some of those things 23 that we might add as far as shower facilities. And, again, 24 that's just an idea that we've talked about. 25 It would be important in the development of this 2-28-11 19 1 project that -- again, that the bathrooms, storage areas 2 would be shared with the next picture that we would show if 3 someday we do have the development of an exhibit center that 4 would be next door to the show barn facility. Now, the one 5 thing about the exhibit center, as far as being built, the 6 design that you see in front of us is 35,000 square feet. 7 Again, it would be important that the conceptional drawings 8 or the design of this facility is that you could add onto the 9 expansion of this facility as times warrant and events grow, 10 so that you could add 5,000, 10,000 in the future. But the 11 key is to have 35,000 square feet to at least get started. 12 There's been concern about breakout rooms where you could 13 have meetings prior to. I think real early, as we start with 14 35,000 square feet, we do take advantage of the show barn 15 facility and use that as breakout rooms area if we need to, 16 as far as that as time grows into that potential project 17 being developed. So, that's an important exhibit center, and 18 there's many things that can be functioned in there. Note, 19 this facility right here is going to be the facility that 20 really, truly brings the true economic benefit to this 21 project as it is developed and moves on. 22 Go to the next slide. This next picture right 23 here, I want to mention here, we look at the potential parts 24 of the phasing. And, again, I've -- just for this 25 presentation to you today, I want to mention here, first of 2-28-11 20 1 all, that the -- the project here, that we own this facility. 2 The good thing about this project, the County owns the 3 property. We don't have to purchase any land. The land -- 4 and I visited with Mr. Voelkel, who told me we have about 100 5 acres at our site out here on Highway 27. The other thing 6 that's really beneficial to this whole project having merit 7 to look at is the river access that we have behind us. The 8 Flat Rock Dam area is probably one of the most beautiful 9 river connections in our community, and so that is something 10 to keep in mind as we look at these different phases. If we 11 look at the phases right here on this right now, I want to 12 mention right here that Phase 1 right now, the outdoor arena, 13 basically your Kerr County Commissioners Court up here has 14 already really started the first phase. It's already in 15 process through, I know, Commissioner Oehler's efforts and 16 Commissioner Letz and Commissioner Baldwin, their efforts in 17 leading forward. 18 They've torn down the old outdoor arena; it's 19 already gone, and we have the outdoor arena that's already 20 built. In fact, the County has already invested $203,000 in 21 this project, and it's exciting to see that part of the phase 22 going forward. Well, Phase 2, again, we saw the show barn. 23 Phase 3 is the current indoor arena. Again, we're going to 24 talk about the cost of this in just a moment. But, again, 25 you see Phase 3, and basically you could say Phase 1 and 3 2-28-11 21 1 are kind of connected together, as far as our facilities out 2 there right now. Current Phase 4 would be the exhibit center 3 that you would see up here, and then 5 and 6 later, as things 4 would come on board, would be the development of an 5 amphitheater down by the river, and then, of course, a bridge 6 that we have down on the river as well. I do know that we 7 have a bridge down there right now that has significant 8 benefit already to us, and again, I don't know how all that 9 would be there, but again, part of that as we would move 10 forward. 11 Let's go to the economic -- or the hard costs of -- 12 today's 2011 costs of this project right now. Basically, in 13 looking at that -- let's see if we can go to the next one. 14 That's the economic analysis. Let's see if you can find that 15 one that has the cost -- there you go. Let me get mine so I 16 can read this with you here and explain this to you. Phase 1 17 that you see in front of you, these costs, again, I would 18 like to make sure that I mention to you, these are 2011 hard 19 costs. And when we see the total down there, I want to make 20 sure that everyone understands here that this is hard cost. 21 You still are going to have some soft costs that are going to 22 be attributed to this total cost. You're going to have the 23 cost of equipment and those type of things as well. I do 24 know that when they were looking at discuss -- of the 25 convention center discussion in town, when they were talking 2-28-11 22 1 34 to 40 million dollars, I don't know if they necessarily 2 had soft costs or equipment in those hard figures that we 3 were looking at. But I think you have to add those figures 4 to it so that we really understand as a community what is 5 going to be our total cost for this project. 6 Phase 1 that we're looking at right here -- and 7 this would be, again, the outdoor arena and the existing 8 arena that we currently have, our activities there. Phase 1, 9 the cost of completing these Phase 1 and 3, and this is the 10 prorated site work also included, and this would be $1.6 11 million. This would include the renovations of the existing 12 arena, upgrading the bathrooms, seating, electrical, and also 13 the roof on this facility. Also, I know that Commissioner 14 Oehler has been a tremendous leader in our efforts in trying 15 to help on the outdoor arena. We also got some costs in here 16 of looking at a roof over that facility, with lighting, 17 bathrooms, concession stand and stands. And as Commissioner 18 Oehler has said, there are several activities that we could 19 attract with that facility being completed that would be very 20 beneficial to this county. 21 Phase 2, again, the construction costs here would 22 be a show barn that we're talking about prorated site work of 23 3.9 million. The interest that we've had so far already was 24 just, you know, to renovate and try to get the show barn, at 25 least, facility moving forward when the convention center 2-28-11 23 1 idea went away, to look and see what we can do and start 2 trying to move forward, and the County leading those efforts 3 with these -- with the facility and site that we've got right 4 here. But the show barn, again, could be a multiple or a 5 multi-use facility. We could attract boat shows, gun and 6 knife shows, different associational meetings, a lot of 7 ag-related type of facilities or associational meetings to 8 this facility. 9 Phase 3, again, would be prorated site work of -- 10 of that amount. And then, again, the cost of this exhibit 11 center, the exhibit center would be designed on 35,000 square 12 feet. You're looking at 6.6 million. The total of this 13 cost, then, for this project is 12.2. And, again, I would 14 estimate about 10 percent of that would be in soft costs that 15 you would have, and with your -- your equipment and those 16 type of things, so I think if you're really looking at a 17 project like this to be moving forward, I think a total cost, 18 it would be fairly safe to say that we would be under the 19 $14 million area. Now, when you talk about that, again, 20 that's a far cry from what we talked about as far as what we 21 were looking at in the community as the development of a 22 convention center that had a $40 million price tag on it. 23 So, again, another avenue instead of having the Cadillac 24 version, we have a Chevrolet version, which is pretty dang 25 good. 2-28-11 24 1 Let's go ahead and look at the next cost right 2 here. I do want to show you the economic impact. And I 3 would like to thank our C.V.B., Sudie Burditt for providing 4 those numbers, and she has a wealth of experience in our 5 community, and I just want to bring this information before 6 the Commissioners Court and, again, our citizens here today, 7 just to refresh the potential economic benefit to this 8 project, if it did develop. First of all, there are 42 9 weekends that would be available to us to use for the 10 development of this whole project, and whatever phases that 11 we moved on with. There are 52 weekends a year. Three 12 weekends right now are already reserved for the livestock 13 show and other events; Arts and Crafts fair, Kerr County Fair 14 and other conventions that do not book on the holiday time. 15 I asked Sudie to run some numbers of potential days that we 16 could use this facility. Basically, 174 days out of the 17 year, this facility could be made available to us to help 18 generate sales tax and other development in our community. 19 Weekends that would be available, 42 days. And we used the 20 economic multiplier -- I want to be sure that everybody here 21 understands the figures that we're looking at. 22 When you see a -- if you'll scroll down here, the 23 economic develop benefit, scroll down just a little bit more. 24 You'll see, if it shows it up there -- a little bit more. 25 Stop right there. When we look at the benefit of the 2-28-11 25 1 development of the events center on weekends and weekdays, 2 and the show barn development and its rental of that 3 property, the total benefit, a direct benefit annually would 4 be 5.1 million. You know, and that would generate in new 5 sales; that will generate in motel rooms, restaurants and all 6 of those things. Now, I would also let you know that in 7 today's economic data or analysis, a lot of times you see 8 people will use a multiplier to see what the full direct or 9 indirect benefit to your community is. I will tell you that 10 a lot of times, when you look at reports, the multiplier can 11 be anywhere from a half of 1 percent to 2 or 3 percent. It 12 depends on what you're wanting to do. If you're being 13 conservative, and in this number I would recommend being very 14 conservative, if we used just a half of 1 percent as a 15 multiplier, which is what I would recommend in today's 16 economy, we would see that the benefit to this community on 17 an annual basis would be about 7.55 million a year in our 18 community for restaurants, sales tax, different things that 19 we could collect in the community that would help us as our 20 community moves forward. 21 So, again, today I wanted to bring this to the 22 Commissioners Court to give an update on the report as far as 23 the potential part and development of this project. Again, I 24 want to reiterate the -- the interest from the community, and 25 has been over the last couple of months as we've seen with 2-28-11 26 1 the convention center idea going away. The Ag Barn and the 2 Kerr County property that we have out there is substantial. 3 We have river access. We have 100 acres out there, and to a 4 degree already, the expansion -- I mean the renovation is 5 already underway. We've already started that. My -- my 6 direction and request to the Commissioners Court today is to 7 get your input and to ask what direction you would like me to 8 proceed, if there's any, and to see what interest might be 9 from our community or what resources we have as well. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner, I'd -- I'd strongly 11 urge that this be vetted out in the community in various 12 quarters, to -- number one, we've more recently heard a lot 13 more discussion about the need for economic development 14 because of the continued increased ratio of the residential 15 tax base to the commercial/industrial tax base, and the need 16 to redistribute that so that the homeowner's not paying such 17 a high portion of the ad valorem tax. Of course, with 18 industrial/commercial business growth, you also get sales tax 19 generated, which helps to even offset that some more. But in 20 addition, a lot of the -- a lot of the concern and objection 21 that -- that I heard with regard to the recent activity over 22 the last year and a half or so as to attracting events here 23 to the community was the very high cost of such a facility, 24 and secondly, that there was a desire that it be located in 25 such a manner that we could take advantage of what some have 2-28-11 27 1 termed the "crown jewel" of Kerr County, which is our river. 2 And indications were that it really wasn't going to be 3 feasible to put a major facility right on the river. 4 The bottom line is, we've -- we are in a position 5 to look at this thing in a totally different light, 6 cost-wise, because we're looking at, you know, about a third 7 of the cost total, not just for one structure, but for an 8 entire complex. Secondly, it can be incorporated with the 9 river, which I think everybody understands is a -- a major, 10 major asset for this county and this community. So, in 11 addition, I think the vetting needs to occur in order to see 12 what -- what is the degree of interest from -- from various 13 funding sources. You've got various grant sources. You 14 mentioned one or two dealing with only a very small aspect of 15 it; emergency preparedness, for example. We've got a number 16 of -- of ag-type possibilities, though the funding may be 17 somewhat restricted there. Of course, with the aspect of -- 18 of economic development, we've got an Economic Improvement 19 Corporation and a local Kerrville Economic Development 20 Foundation that works in conjunction with that. I think they 21 need to be brought into the discussion. 22 And we've got some foundations, some that are 23 local, some that are -- have shown an interest in this area 24 in the past, and then we've also got a number of local groups 25 or individuals who have shown a propensity in the past and 2-28-11 28 1 have indicated a desire to see an upgrade in that entire 2 complex out there. So, I think this thing needs to be 3 vetted. Where it goes from there, of course, is going to 4 depend upon the degree of community interest and what's 5 available from a funding standpoint. But from my standpoint, 6 I would encourage you to go to those individuals, groups, 7 entities that are potential stakeholders, and say, "Here it 8 is. What do you think?" 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: "How much can you 10 contribute?" 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- Judge, I think 12 the -- my, I guess, guidance to Mr. Overby would be that, 13 first, it's got to be real clear that I'm not going to 14 support a tax increase to do it. 15 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's correct. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it's got to be done. 17 We do have debt rolling off in the next five years, and a 18 possibility of replacing that debt, you know, I may 19 entertain. But with the current economic times, you know, we 20 just can't do a tax increase for something like this. 21 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's correct. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The second part of that is, in 23 looking at your numbers, there's about $711,000 to renovate 24 the existing arena. That is a priority; we have got to do 25 that. I mean, any way we go forward, if nothing else happens 2-28-11 29 1 out there, that facility has got to be upgraded and brought 2 up to at least current code. I'm not even sure if this 3 brings it to full code, but it -- the upgrade has to take 4 place out there. And I think if the opportunity presents 5 itself for us to be able to leverage those dollars to get the 6 rest of it accomplished, fantastic. I mean, I think my 7 personal view is that $711,000, maybe even the rest of that 8 first Phase 1 category, is this Court's responsibility, 9 something we don't have a whole lot of choice on. That 10 building needs to be -- we have to take care of what we have 11 out there. And, like I say, if we can leverage that through 12 other grants, foundations, other sources, great. And, you 13 know, hopefully the whole project could then be accomplished. 14 My priorities are as you had them listed, is to renovate the 15 existing facility, build the new show barn, and then the last 16 part would be the -- the exhibit hall. Those are my order of 17 priority, but I think it makes sense to probably try to do it 18 all at once, because I think you can get a broader consensus 19 in the community, because it provides something for everyone, 20 so to speak. 21 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Yeah, I think that -- that 22 the renovation of the existing arena, outdoor -- indoor 23 arena, the show barn -- you know, the show barn is -- it's 24 pathetic. It's not safe. You know, we know it's not real 25 functional. It's been used for a long time, and it's kind of 2-28-11 30 1 -- it's just kind of outlived its time, and it's time to do 2 something about it. And I hope that we can get some support 3 from foundations and from individuals, and maybe the Stock 4 Show Association is one place to ask for their assistance, 5 and maybe some of their folks that would be willing to 6 contribute toward upgrading and doing these things. I know 7 there's some individuals that support that organization 8 annually, and have in the past done building projects, or 9 funded them. That's how the indoor arena got built. Of 10 course, it was kind of done by -- I think it was the Brangus 11 Association and Cutting Horse, some of that stuff, but I 12 think most of it was Brangus. But, anyway, I think we could 13 encourage them to get on board and try to support us with 14 some funds, and we'll, you know, do what we can to leverage, 15 like what we've already started. 16 And we -- we still need to spend some money just to 17 do the basics, but I think E.I.C. is one, and I think the 18 foundations, just like everybody said, that's -- I think that 19 it's time that they might be willing to get on board with 20 this, being that the convention center thing has gone away, 21 and this is a much less expensive, but a very -- in my 22 opinion, a more functional facility for a lot of events, 23 where the costs and everything to operate it are going to be 24 less than doing something else. It will be used pretty -- 25 this thing is booked just about every weekend of the year. 2-28-11 31 1 Of course, 4-H uses it, you know, all -- all the time for 2 various functions, and other -- other organizations. So, it 3 is an important thing for the community. And, you know, 4 maybe we can get the City to -- and the E.I. -- I'd say the 5 Convention and Visitors Bureau; maybe they should do some 6 annual contribution to this thing for maintenance and 7 operation, because they do benefit directly from it, and 8 hotel/motel tax. And, of course, we all benefit somewhat 9 with sales tax. But it just seems to me like it ought to be 10 a partnership. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll be brief. Because if 12 we get this item out of the way, some of these rednecks will 13 leave the room and -- and let those other folks in. But -- 14 and I may join them. (Laughter.) I just -- I'm one of these 15 guys that -- you know, I think that you need to see what -- 16 see what funding is out there before you can take step two, 17 and I don't think that this Court or anybody around here have 18 the attitude of, "If we build it, they will come" kind of 19 thing. I just think that we need to -- 20 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I agree. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- take baby steps on the 22 thing, and let the community participate in it. That's all. 23 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I did also just want to say 24 for the record, this -- the information -- and I appreciate 25 your comments, Commissioner Baldwin. I agree with you 2-28-11 32 1 totally. I did want to -- just for the record, I just 2 thought it was interesting that on this property, we have 835 3 parking spaces that can be -- that we have. And just for the 4 record also, in front of the outdoor arena the property would 5 -- would remain as grass area there for the horses, and all 6 those areas there, and that's overflow. But, again, I just 7 wanted to note that there is a lot of parking that would be 8 worked in the site plans we did before, and I think I 9 understand the direction that Commissioners Court -- that 10 y'all are asking me to look at, and I understand that. Thank 11 you. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further? 13 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: No, sir. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have 15 anything further on this matter? Let's move to our 9:30 16 timed item, if we might; to consider, discuss, take 17 appropriate action to modify or change policy regarding the 18 type of security, be that commissioned certified peace 19 officer or commissioned security officer, that must be 20 present for events at the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center. 21 Mr. Flores? I saw you a moment ago. Yes, sir. 22 MR. FLORES: Good morning. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Morning. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning. 25 MR. FLORES: Was he saying something? 2-28-11 33 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, go ahead. 2 MR. FLORES: Okay. Well, two weeks ago, I did make 3 a presentation, you know, for Flores Security to cover 4 security there at the agriculture building, and y'all were 5 supposed to give me an answer today, if it was approved or 6 disapproved. I did want to make one point, and that is that 7 Flores Security does pay a lot of sales tax. We have paid as 8 much as $25,000, in sales tax in one year. So -- and some of 9 that money does come back to Kerr County. Also, I'm -- I say 10 "a lot." To me, a little bitty company like mine, 27 11 employees is -- is quite a bit. Right now we don't have 27, 12 you know, because of the economic situation here in Kerrville 13 and Kerr County, but we still have about 15 employees. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: The current contract calls for 15 certified peace officers, I believe, which I assume would be 16 TCLEOSE-certified. Is that not correct, -- 17 MS. GRINSTEAD: Yes. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: -- Ms. Grinstead? 19 MS. GRINSTEAD: Yes. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: And what you're requesting is that 21 the Court consider modifying that requirement to permit also 22 commissioned -- 23 MR. FLORES: Security guards. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- security officers? 25 MR. FLORES: Right. 2-28-11 34 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Which would be security officers 2 that have been through some level of training. I assume 3 there's some sort of certification or licensing that -- that 4 takes place with those individuals? 5 MR. FLORES: Yes, sir. First of all, they have to 6 take a -- a Level 2 test, and then, of course, they're 7 fingerprinted, either in Kerr County Sheriff's Office or the 8 local Police Department here. Their test and their 9 background checks and fingerprints and that all goes to 10 Austin to the security bureau. Then the security bureau will 11 let us know if -- if, you know, they're eligible to be 12 security guards. We do have two types of security guards. 13 We have a commissioned security guard, which that allows them 14 to carry a weapon. Therefore, they have to go to the academy 15 in San Antonio for a week, and then if they pass that test 16 there and go to the firing range, pass that also, then 17 they're -- they will receive a certified -- certificate, you 18 know, enabling them to carry a weapon. Then we have a 19 nonsecurity officer -- a noncommissioned security officer, I 20 mean, and he -- he also has to go through all the steps that 21 I just mentioned, but he will not go -- or does not have to 22 go to the academy there in San Antonio. And -- but he is -- 23 he is allowed to be a noncommissioned security officer. And 24 believe it or not, but most of the accounts that I have want 25 a noncommissioned officer, which means they will not carry a 2-28-11 35 1 weapon. And their reasons is that it's a lot less danger, 2 you know. So, therefore, they're choosing -- you know, but I 3 do have both. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, you got any thoughts about 5 this? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's up to the Court. I think 7 either way, it should be a commissioned -- I mean, a 8 commissioned peace officer. The only difference is, if you 9 had an incident with an arrest being made, it would still 10 have to come as a peace officer. Citizen's arrest, they 11 wouldn't have arrest powers. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But how much -- how much of 13 that kind of thing happens at these functions? I mean, I 14 don't know -- I mean, I really don't know what all kind of 15 functions you have out there, but I just can't picture a 16 whole lot of things going on where you need a -- a 17 TCLEOSE-certified peace officer. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only issue you have is, 19 when it's a function that does involve the serving of 20 alcoholic beverages, then we will have issues out there, at 21 which time it's better that a commissioned peace officer can 22 actually make an arrest at that time. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you're saying that 24 alcohol alters people's thinking? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just a little bit. 2-28-11 36 1 (Laughter.) From time to time, Buster. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've heard about that. I've 3 heard about it. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, the other thing is, you 5 know, whether -- and I don't know what the difference is when 6 you have deputies or city policemen out there in full 7 uniform. True, we don't have that many incidents out there, 8 thank goodness, and a lot of it is a deterrent. The uniform 9 is a deterrent. 10 MR. FLORES: In the 11 years that I've had the 11 business, we've only had one incident that we've had to call 12 the Sheriff's Department. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the -- you know, 14 if alcohol is served, my preference is to have a 15 TCLEOSE-certified person there. Other than that -- other 16 than those events, I really don't have a problem with going 17 to a licensed police officer or a commissioned security 18 officer. I think we just probably reword the language that 19 we have in our agreement. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How is it -- 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One thing you need to make 22 sure of, Jonathan, is "certified" and "commissioned" have two 23 very distinct meanings. A commissioned peace officer is one 24 that his commission is being carried by an agency. Normally 25 he's a full-time officer somewhere, okay? Otherwise, he's 2-28-11 37 1 not hired by any agency. He has the training, you know, a 2 certification, but he is not commissioned. He's not even -- 3 if he's not commissioned, he's not allowed as a peace officer 4 to carry a weapon. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The language right now says 6 "licensed." 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Same thing with the security 8 officer. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It currently says "licensed." 10 What does "licensed" mean to you? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: "Licensed" doesn't really mean 12 that much, okay? Because he's got the training, but he's not 13 -- may not be working for an agency that's carrying his 14 commission. So, in other words, yes, he's got the training 15 to be a peace officer, but he's not technically a peace 16 officer, 'cause he's not commissioned. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jody, how do we determine 18 whether there's going to be alcohol there or not? 19 MS. GRINSTEAD: Well, that's -- it kind of boils 20 down to I tell them if their event goes past 9 p.m. or 21 alcohol is present, they must have a peace officer out there. 22 So, I mean, it kind of answers all the questions. We only 23 require security when alcohol is present. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 25 MS. GRINSTEAD: Or it goes past 9 p.m. So, I mean, 2-28-11 38 1 right there, I guess we've answered our own question. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, except you got the past 9 p.m. 3 and possibly no alcohol, in which case you could have another 4 -- another level. In either event, Sheriff, your 5 recommendation is that they be commissioned in either event? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Commission be carried either by an 8 agency -- a law enforcement agency or with a licensed 9 security company? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, not just certified. I 11 think they need to be commissioned officers. There's a lot 12 of other training. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As I read it, Jody, they have 14 to have one licensed peace officer for each 100 persons. To 15 me, if you have one there, that should meet the requirement, 16 and the others could be one of these other categories. I 17 think if you have one licensed police officer there, that 18 should be enough, as long as there's other security there as 19 well -- or, you know, when you get over. I mean, it says 20 right now it's two -- minimum of two, and then one additional 21 for each 100 people. So, if you have a 200-person event, you 22 have three security officers there. To me -- you know, and 23 if there's alcohol or it's after 9 p.m., one of those should 24 be -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Commissioned. 2-28-11 39 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- commissioned. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only issue you'll have is 3 feasibility. The people that are contracting it, you know, 4 they're going to have to pay a separate deal to a peace 5 officer and a separate deal to a security company. You could 6 end up with two different -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why can't -- I believe 8 Mr. Flores said at our last meeting that he hires -- 9 sometimes hires -- 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Commissioned. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- commissioned. 12 MR. FLORES: Yes, sir, I do. A deputy or a police 13 -- or a policeman, they charge anywhere from 30 to 40 bucks 14 an hour per officer. And this is the reason that a lot of 15 the events, you know, hire us, because we don't charge that 16 much. We charge anywhere from $20 to $25 an hour per 17 officer. If I was to -- if I was to hire a deputy or a 18 policeman, I would have to pay them, you know, 30 to 40 bucks 19 an hour. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 MR. FLORES: And -- 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I just think the difference 23 between 25 and 30 is not much, is what I'm saying. 24 MR. FLORES: No, but it's not -- not just 30. You 25 know, it goes to 40 bucks an hour. 2-28-11 40 1 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Yeah. 2 MR. FLORES: Per officer. 3 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. I would support a 4 commissioned, licensed peace officer being there. I'd feel 5 better at all times being there in that situation. I think 6 it's hard to determine all the time who's going to be there, 7 who's licensed, who's not licensed. I don't want to get in 8 that situation. So, I mean, I would support -- if you're 9 asking for a motion, I would make a motion that -- a 10 recommendation or a motion to Kerr County that for security 11 for public events at the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center be 12 provided -- that we provide -- request that are provided 13 commissioned, licensed peace officers, and that Kerr County 14 policy, the lease agreement that we have there, be amended to 15 reflect this standard. So, that would be my motion. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion. Do I hear a 17 second? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll second it, but I want to 19 clarify it. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we have a motion and a second 21 that events at the -- are you limiting it to alcohol or after 22 9 p.m., or are you talking about generally? 23 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I would say in general. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Be a commissioned, licensed 25 peace officer, security requirements be met. Question or 2-28-11 41 1 discussion? 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I kind of have some 3 questions. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll withdraw my second on that 5 one, that part of it. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that modifying the 7 present regulation in any way? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: The current policy says "licensed 9 peace officer," which is someone that is TCLEOSE-trained and 10 certified, but not necessarily affiliated with any agency. 11 No commission needs to be carried. Can be, but it's not 12 required. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 14 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Let me ask this. Would it 15 be -- as far as -- would you be supportive of having at least 16 one of those two? Is that what you're saying? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, right now it's only -- 18 we only need the security if it's liquor or after 9 p.m. 19 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Or after 9 o'clock. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't want to get -- the fact 21 that we have a roping event going on late means they have to 22 hire a security officer. 23 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If it's just in the afternoon, 25 or if there's a 4 p.m. function. 2-28-11 42 1 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: After 9 o'clock, or alcohol 2 is served, have a commissioned, licensed peace officer; is 3 that correct? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll go along with that one. 5 But the rest of it, there's so many other -- 6 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I'll retract my motion. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There are other events that 8 do not serve alcohol, and that -- 9 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- are -- that really don't 11 need security. Unless -- 12 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: My point is, we'd be passing 14 an expense on that's not necessary. 15 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Well, I'll retract and then 16 restate. I would make a motion that we have a commissioned, 17 licensed peace officer for any event after 9 p.m. or if 18 alcohol is served at the hours after 9 o'clock, and have at 19 least one commissioned, licensed peace officer in attendance. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just include "where alcohol 21 is served." 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Or where alcohol is served. 23 That would be my motion. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay, then I have a question. 25 Are you going to leave the 100 people there, or are you just 2-28-11 43 1 going to leave one officer out there regardless of the number 2 of people? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me second it first; then we 4 can talk about it. 5 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Did you second that? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We have a motion and a 9 second. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- 'cause I didn't hear him 11 talk about 100 people. To me, it does not include 100 12 people, but you have to have -- I think you do need to have 13 one additional person for every hundred persons, either 14 commissioned or noncommissioned security officer. I want -- 15 there is only one commissioned officer. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. And then on all other 17 events, are -- are you going to reword the deal to where a 18 security company or that organization can provide other 19 security if needed? Giving security companies the right to 20 even do security out there. It's on your property. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think that needs -- I 22 think this covers it. They have to have one licensed or one 23 commissioned peace officer out there. The rest of them can 24 be security officers, either commissioned or noncommissioned. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 2-28-11 44 1 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That works for me. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that crystal clear now? 4 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Mm-hmm. I'm fine with that. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Should we get with the County 6 Attorney and have actual language come back to our next 7 meeting? Sorry, Mr. Flores. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that's a wonderful idea. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This is turning into a mess. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We want to make sure -- 12 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Make it simple and clear. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: We're getting -- moving the right 14 direction for you, Mr. Flores. 15 MR. FLORES: Yeah, I hear you. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: You've heard about legislation and 17 making sausage. They -- both of them, you like the result, 18 but you don't want to see it being done. Well, that's what's 19 going on right now. 20 MR. FLORES: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it would be helpful to 22 do it that way, Judge. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we'll bring it back. We'll be 24 in touch with you, okay? 25 MR. FLORES: All right, sounds good. 2-28-11 45 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Make sure you got his -- 2 MR. FLORES: I appreciate your time. Thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What are you going to do with 5 the motion? 6 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: You got a motion and a 7 second. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Withdraw them, or pass them and 9 get with the County Attorney and get the wording right. 10 Doesn't make any difference to me. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just withdraw. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll withdraw my second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. That solves it. 14 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I'll withdraw my motion at 15 this time. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. That brings us to our 17 9:55 timed item. Perfect. Consider, discuss, take 18 appropriate action to present the preliminary revision of 19 plat for Tract 16B of Silver Hills Subdivision as set forth 20 in Volume 7, Page 154, and set a public hearing for the 21 revision of plat for same, being located in Precinct 2. 22 MR. ODOM: Good morning. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Good morning. 24 MR. ODOM: Mr. Muncie owns Lot 16B of Silver Hills 25 Subdivision founded in -- found in the plat records. 2-28-11 46 1 Mr. Muncie would like to subdivide Lot 16B, which consists of 2 11.24 acres. Lot 16B-1 will be 5.24 acres, and Lot 16B-2 3 will be 6 acres, and will be responsible for its own well as 4 noted in the plat drawing notes. Lot 16B-2 has 150-foot road 5 frontage for access to the property. So, at this time, we 6 ask the Court to set a public hearing for the revision of 7 plat for Lot 16B of Silver Hills Subdivision found in Plat 8 Records, Volume 7, Page 154, Precinct 2, for Monday, April 9 11th, 2011, at 9 a.m. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, is there a -- how many 11 -- 150 feet frontage? 12 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And what do the rules 14 require? 15 MR. ODOM: 150. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So -- and this is a flag lot 17 looking thing here, it looks like to me. 18 MR. ODOM: It's not divisible any further, and will 19 have its own well and -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where does it say it has its 21 own well on here? I didn't look at it. 22 MR. ODOM: Hang on just a second. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Required to have its own 24 well. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He doesn't have to drill his 2-28-11 47 1 own well; he can use bottled water if he wants to. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Got enough acreage for a 3 permit. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He made the statement that 5 it's written on here, and I just kind of wanted to see it. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 3 under notes. Each tract -- 7 MR. ODOM: Under notes right here. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 9 MR. ODOM: Tract 16B-2 shall be responsible for its 10 own fresh water source. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good, thank you. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Do I hear a motion that the matter 13 be set for public hearing on April 11, 2011, at 9 a.m.? 14 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Motion is made. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Question 17 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 18 raising your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Okay. At this 23 time, I will recess the Commissioners Court meeting, and I 24 will convene a public hearing for the adoption of the new 25 Flood Damage Prevention Order to be in effect for Precincts 2-28-11 48 1 1, 2, 3, and 4. 2 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:01 a.m., and a public hearing was held in 3 open court, as follows:) 4 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Does any member of the public or 6 audience have -- wish to be heard with respect to the 7 adoption of the new Flood Damage Prevention Order for 8 Precincts 1, 2, 3, and 4? Seeing no one coming forward, I'll 9 close the public hearing for adoption of a new Flood Damage 10 Prevention Order for Precincts 1, 2, 3, and 4. 11 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:01 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court meeting was 12 reopened.) 13 - - - - - - - - - - 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to Item 9; consider, 15 discuss, take appropriate action to request that the Human 16 Resources Department give update on total county employment 17 and differentiate between county employees and other 18 personnel that receive H.R. services. Commissioner Letz? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this on the agenda 20 basically as a -- coming out of our last budget process. 21 During that time, we talked about a -- through attrition, 22 hopefully being able to reduce county workforce by about 10. 23 It was not a hard number, because we really couldn't figure 24 out a way to budget that or put it in the budget without 25 doing layoffs. We didn't want to do that, but we did want to 2-28-11 49 1 try to reduce our overall staff by, I think, 10 people. And 2 we had an agreement from our elected officials to work with 3 us on that, so -- and we also talked about receiving an 4 update in about midyear, six months into the budget year, as 5 to where we were on the budget, where we were on health care. 6 And that's the purpose of this agenda item, just to make sure 7 that the whole Court wants to do this. But my idea would be 8 for us to set a -- either a workshop or at a future meeting, 9 and to ask H.R. to give us a full report on our employment. 10 We had a lot of discussion last year about who's a county 11 employee, who isn't a county employee. I'd like to try to 12 get that resolved from a policy standpoint before we get into 13 the budget. And we also talked last year about some of the 14 services that are really geared for more individuals or 15 certain people, such as the trapper contract. We talked 16 about ways to get those people that use that service to pay 17 for it through a fee structure. 18 There's lots of things along that line. I'd just 19 like to get them all on the table so we don't start having to 20 make quick decisions during the budget, to give the County 21 Judge some guidance when he's preparing the budget as to -- 22 kind of from sort of a policy standpoint as to where we're -- 23 what we think we should be looking at. I think we're going 24 to have a very difficult budget again, from what I heard when 25 I was in Austin at our workshop -- or conference. Every 2-28-11 50 1 place the State can put the screws to the counties, they're 2 doing it. Everything from -- I believe Rusty's going to have 3 to figure out in his budget how he's going to pay for his 4 jail inspections; it's no longer funded by the State. He's 5 going to have to -- we're going to have to pay for it. He's 6 going to find out where to pay for it. And that's the whole 7 purpose of the item. It wasn't anything -- I didn't really 8 want to get into a discussion today about it. It's just more 9 just to put it on the table, see what the rest of the Court 10 thinks, and try to set a date in the future to go over these 11 things in detail. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. I actually think 13 that we should have a -- a small workshop, pre-budget small 14 workshop, and this is one of several items that I can think 15 of that need to be on that agenda to discuss as we kind of 16 head into the budget process. We may eliminate part of the 17 process by doing this. 18 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I agree with that. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: April? I mean, the Judge -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't start calling me 21 names, okay? (Laughter.) Yeah, April will be fine. 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's fine with me. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, when do you start 25 requesting the elected officials to start turning in their -- 2-28-11 51 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Generally sometime in May. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So April will be a good time 3 from that standpoint. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, to try and get some policy 5 direction as to a consensus as to what -- 6 MS. HARGIS: It's April, Judge. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: -- time to go with budget. The -- 8 you know, I concur. To the extent they can, I think the 9 State's going to try and balance their budget off our backs. 10 And this isn't just in Texas; this is all over the country 11 you're seeing this, where these obligations continue to be 12 pushed down the food chain, as it were, and it ends up in the 13 lap of local government, because that's the last place it 14 stops. And a decision has to be made at that point, what 15 services are we going to provide or not going to provide? Or 16 stated another way, what services can we and our taxpayers 17 afford to provide, and what we mandated by law to provide? 18 So, the train's coming down the track, and I think it's -- 19 it's going to come after us. And until the Legislature gets 20 through with whatever damage it's going to hand us, we won't 21 really know to what extent we're going to have to absorb or 22 attempt to absorb or -- or defer on what they -- what they 23 drop in our laps. What you're talking about is initially 24 getting a -- a classification of employees, and then together 25 with that, a workshop in April to try and get some consensus 2-28-11 52 1 going forward based upon the assumption, to the degree that 2 we can make it, of what we're going to have to deal with? 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And also a report on our 4 financial situation and where we are from our Auditor. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Relative to our budget in place now? 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Relative to our budget in 7 place. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: With an emphasis on health 9 insurance. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Judge, I think last year you 11 started putting out everything to us, as far as the 12 departments, in April. 13 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't know if you want to 15 move that back and do something in March to help give us some 16 type of guidance on what you're -- you're looking at. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: I think I made my deadline for 18 initial submission, I guess, in May. Probably -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, how about if -- I'll 20 start working on a format, or the items to have in a 21 workshop, and we'll put it on our next agenda. That way, 22 early April should work out to be a time for the workshop. 23 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's good. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Works for me. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Early April or later in 2-28-11 53 1 March. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Depends how it works. We can 3 bring it back the next time with some ideas of specific 4 topics. All right, thank you. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further needed on that? 6 Let's go to Item 7, which is our 10:05 timed item, to 7 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action for the final 8 approval of Flood Damage Prevention Order for Precincts, 1, 9 2, 3 and 4. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You don't look like John 11 Hewitt. 12 MR. ODOM: I was going to say, I'm better looking 13 than Hewitt anyway. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's debatable. 15 MR. ODOM: That sounds like my wife. (Laughter.) 16 Listen, I -- I'm sorry. John was supposed to be here on 17 this, but as we presented this information, we've discussed 18 before that we've gone over -- we've looked at it. Legal has 19 looked at it and made what revisions we need, and my 20 recommendation to the Court is to accept this. We have a 21 deadline, and I want to meet that deadline without -- we've 22 been way ahead of the game with FEMA on all these changes and 23 all, and made what is appropriate action, and particularly in 24 your precinct, Commissioner Oehler. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I know. 2-28-11 54 1 MR. ODOM: So, I would suggest that we -- the Court 2 accept this court order, and then if there's anything we see 3 we want to do, we can always come back and modify that, and 4 accept what we've got. And we meet requirements by FEMA, and 5 we have a new floodplain map coming to us. 6 MS. HOFFER: Can I add something? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, ma'am. 8 MS. HOFFER: The new FIRM maps are supposed to go 9 in place on March 3rd, and FEMA requires two signed copies in 10 their hands by March 3rd. So, we would like to get these two 11 copies signed and notarized, and then we are going to get 12 them out today. 13 MR. ODOM: We will mail them, so we'll make sure 14 that it's taken care of. And she's better looking than I am, 15 so I'll let her talk. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is the Judge supposed to sign 17 that? 18 MS. HOFFER: Yes. 19 MR. ODOM: Yes. 20 MS. HOFFER: And also, the clerk's office does have 21 a digital copy of all the FIRMs, so the public can also go to 22 the clerk's office and view those. Also, the maps can be 23 viewed on the FEMA site, FIRM maps, and then we also have 24 paper copies at Road and Bridge. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are the FIRM maps included 2-28-11 55 1 under the Flood Prevention Order? Or do we -- is that a -- 2 MS. HOFFER: There is a requirement every time you 3 go to get new FIRM maps that they -- you have to update your 4 ordinance. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 MS. HOFFER: In case there are changes, or it gives 7 you the opportunity to change things that you might want to 8 make a little more -- stronger. 9 MR. ODOM: Restrictive. 10 MS. HOFFER: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So it's part of it. 12 MS. HOFFER: It's part of it, and you have to do 13 it. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 15 MR. ODOM: We're basically at 1 foot above the 16 B.F.E. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion to approve 19 the new Flood Damage Prevention Order; included with that, 20 the new FIRM maps, and authorize County Judge to sign same. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 23 indicated. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 24 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2-28-11 56 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let's go to 4 our 10:10 timed item, Item 8; consider, discuss, take 5 appropriate action to go out for annual bids for road base, 6 cold mix, aggregate, emulsion oil, and corrugated metal pipe. 7 Mr. Odom? 8 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. We're asking the Court to 9 give us authorization to go out for our annual bids on road 10 base, cold mix, aggregate, emulsion oil, and corrugated metal 11 pipe. Once we put out the bids, we'll come back to court to 12 open the bids on March 28, 2011, at 10 a.m. in Commissioners 13 Court, and follow up with awarding the bids on March the 14 28th, 2011, at 10:05. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 18 approval. Question or discussion? Mr. Odom, you might have 19 unintentionally picked a bad time for some of these 20 petroleum-based things. 21 MR. ODOM: You know, well, I -- you know, let's 22 just see how things go. I figured $100 is what I calculated 23 this year, and that would run between 80 to 90, probably. 24 Libya's just a unique situation. I think in the next week or 25 so, before the bids are opened, things will nullify a little 2-28-11 57 1 bit, and it's hard to believe that -- that logical people -- 2 economists would want 100 barrels -- $100 a barrel. It's 3 going to stymie the economy, and it would stymie us. 4 However, we'll have to live with it. That's what -- this 5 meeting's going to be in March or April that you're going to 6 come up, and we'll discuss it. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I wasn't suggesting that you defer. 8 I just thought it was unfortunate that when you bring this to 9 us, why, the -- the Middle East is probably as close to chaos 10 as they've been in a long time. 11 MR. ODOM: In a long time. But that's the people 12 speaking, so that's the way it is. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Appreciate everything you do. 15 MR. ODOM: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: You bet. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Further question or discussion? All 18 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go to 23 Item 18. They're saying, "Where in the world is this guy 24 going now?" Consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 25 accomplish preliminary function preparatory to construction 2-28-11 58 1 of a fire station on Ranchero Road in Kerrville South, 2 including, but not limited to, preliminary site plan, 3 proposed floor plan of building and other improvements, 4 proposed type of construction, and other matters preliminary 5 to authorization of formal plan specifications and 6 construction. Commissioner Baldwin and I placed this on the 7 agenda. As the Court will recall, we were fortunate to 8 obtain from Mr. Don Trisch the donation of a very 9 appropriate-sized and located piece of ground right across 10 from Nimitz School on Ranchero Road for the purpose of 11 hopefully someday in the future constructing a fire station. 12 We are now struggling with having to look at options for fire 13 service and some other things. So, I'm not suggesting that 14 we spend a nickel with this agenda item, but rather to start 15 the process, to spend some time -- Commissioner Baldwin and 16 myself -- to contact various resources, to look at how -- 17 number one, what would be an appropriate facility in terms of 18 size and -- and availability of the types of things that are 19 going to be needed for that kind of a facility, how it might 20 be suited to be placed on that property. Look at 21 construction type, generalized cost ascertainment, things of 22 that nature. But we've got to start looking at options, and 23 we can't start too soon in my way of thinking. And so that's 24 the reason that I've placed this on the agenda, so that 25 Commissioner Baldwin and I can begin this process. Of 2-28-11 59 1 course, we want the input from the other members of the Court 2 and other resources that you have. Obviously, we're going to 3 be calling upon those people that have recently constructed 4 stations. We've got -- Ingram's done a very fine station. 5 Mountain Home's got a wonderful station. Turtle Creek's 6 recently done one. All of those are various sized, and we 7 want to get the benefit of all the information we can. 8 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Again, the property's located 9 right across from Nimitz Elementary School? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's good. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just as an example of floor 13 plan conversation, I'm going to be one to push for possibly 14 having an extra bay for an ambulance, a place for ambulance 15 people to sleep and a place for ambulance people to cook 16 food, that possibility that they would be there around the 17 clock. So, that's the kind of thing that we are going to 18 start talking about and looking at. And he and I may argue 19 about it a little bit, but it's okay. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: If we don't talk about it, we can't 21 argue about it. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are y'all looking for money as 23 well? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not at this point. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not at this point? 2-28-11 60 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's not part of this thing 2 at all. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. This is more planning? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Looking at options. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you can go look for money. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly right. 8 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Explore all options. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Exactly. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I encourage you to move 11 forward -- 12 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- quickly. 14 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I'd agree with that. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, just because it's in 16 your precinct, that doesn't mean you need to get involved. 17 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's right. I'll be -- 18 I'll be involved. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I thought it was in yours. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it is for right now. 21 Until he catches on what we're doing. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Until we redistrict. 23 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's coming down the pike. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's go to Section 4 of the 25 agenda, if we might. We've got a number of items beginning 2-28-11 61 1 at 10:45, and what I'm proposing that we do is we'll wind up 2 as much as we can prior to 10:30. We'll take a short recess, 3 come back, and we'll start on those various items that are 4 scheduled to begin at 10:45. Item 4.1, payment of the bills. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move we pay the bills, Judge. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that we pay 8 the bills. Question or discussion on the motion? All in 9 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 10 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We do have 14 a budget amendment, as I recall. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: For -- looks like special 16 court reporter, huh? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: There's only one item on the budget 18 amendment request, that being to transfer from 216th District 19 Court special court reporter to the 198th District court 20 reporter. Apparently those funds have been expended in the 21 198th budget. Is that correct, Ms. Hargis? 22 MS. HARGIS: Yes, they have. And there will be 23 more, because that's not the Camp Mystic trial; that was 24 another trial that we spent most of that money on. So, I 25 just wanted you to be aware that that's probably going to go 2-28-11 62 1 over by about $5,000, $6,000. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: For those special trials? 3 MS. HARGIS: Two special trials. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 7 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 9 approval of the proposed budget amendment as indicated by 10 Item 1 on the summary. Question or discussion? All in favor 11 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Do we have 16 any late bills? 17 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes, we got one. 19 MS. HARGIS: Yes, we do. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Tell us about it. 21 MS. HARGIS: These are the -- the bills for the 22 facility that we're remodeling or adding on to at the annex. 23 That's the Sheriff's exercise facility. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That's the contract that's been 25 submitted on the building that was approved by the architect 2-28-11 63 1 and the Sheriff and submitted to your office? 2 MS. HARGIS: That's correct. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And how much is that? 4 MS. HARGIS: The total is $12,150.38. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: And that's to Anderson Steadham? 6 MS. HARGIS: That's correct. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Do I hear a motion to approve 8 the late bill in the amount of $12,150 -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: -- and 38 cents to Anderson 11 Steadham? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 14 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 15 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 16 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I've got a couple of 21 questions about the direct payables. May I ask? Can we 22 discuss that? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, I'm glad you woke up 24 before we went on our break. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm just getting ready 2-28-11 64 1 for the break. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But there's a couple things 4 here I'm just not understanding, and I possibly see a problem 5 that we need to address. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you have that list in 8 front of you? 9 MS. HARGIS: I hope I do. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: You can borrow mine, if not. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Direct payables. The second 12 item down there, what is that word? Avis? 13 MS. HARGIS: It's a rental car, I would assume. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Avis is -- that's a rental 15 car? 16 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. And then the next one 18 is reimbursement -- I'm -- I think I'm reading reimbursement 19 for overpayment. And there are several of those throughout 20 here. And I'm wondering, is there a computer problem, or 21 what -- what's that about? Do you see what I'm talking 22 about? 23 MS. HARGIS: Well, reimbursements for some of 24 these, they're for people who rent the facility and then they 25 get reimbursed for their deposit. 2-28-11 65 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: J.P. 3, reimbursement for 2 overpayment. I don't know that that has anything to do with 3 renting a facility, but if it does, tell me that and go on 4 down the road. 5 MS. HARGIS: I don't see that one, I'm sorry. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There are numerous of those. 7 MS. HARGIS: I'll have to check on it, Mr. Baldwin. 8 I don't know. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you just skip -- 10 MS. HARGIS: These are -- I don't see that on the 11 ones I've got. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's the third one down, is 13 one. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: First page. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Page 1. 16 MS. HARGIS: Third one down is Laurinda. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. All right, let's do 18 it this way. I'll go to your page. 1, 2, 3, 4 -- 5th one 19 down. 20 MS. HARGIS: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See -- you see what I'm 22 talking about? That is one there, and there are numerous of 23 those. 24 MS. HARGIS: I see one on the first page for 25 Stephen Koenig for J.P. 3, reimbursement of overpayment. 2-28-11 66 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, ma'am. 2 MS. HARGIS: That would be a reimbursement of 3 overpayment of a fine or a fee. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Let me try my 5 question again. There are numerous of those coming out of 6 the same office. Is that a computer program? Why is there 7 overpayment coming out of one office that many times? 8 MS. HARGIS: I can't answer that. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Well, it's nice 10 chatting with you. Maybe we can visit about it later. 11 MS. HARGIS: That would be appropriate. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I'm just -- I want to 13 make sure that we're not having a computer program problem. 14 Looks like a computer program problem. 15 MS. HARGIS: We also pay those bills for the J.P.'s 16 now, for J.P. 1 and 3, out of my office, where they used to 17 have their own checkbooks. We pay those out of our office 18 now, and so that's why they're probably on the direct payable 19 list. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Thank you very much. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I have been presented with 22 monthly reports from Justice of the Peace, Precinct 4, and 23 Constable, Precinct 3. Do I hear a motion that these reports 24 be approved as presented? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 2-28-11 67 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 2 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 4 approval of the indicated reports be approved as presented. 5 Question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 6 by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. I've been 11 told that there are a number of people out in the hall that 12 wish to be heard with respect to, apparently, the items 13 beginning at 10:45. So, for that reason, I've been advised 14 that Courtroom Number 1 is open upstairs. When we reconvene 15 at 10:45, we'll reconvene upstairs in District Courtroom 16 Number 1. So, right now we'll be in recess until that time, 17 to reconvene in District Courtroom Number 1 upstairs. 18 (Recess taken from 10:24 a.m. to 10:45 a.m.) 19 - - - - - - - - - - 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come back to order, if 21 we might. We were in recess for a couple of reasons. Number 22 one, to give the court reporter a break, and then we all 23 relocated up here. Gee, the family has grown, hasn't it? 24 Good to see all of you here. We appreciate your interest in 25 the business of the Court. We'll go to Item 10, which is a 2-28-11 68 1 10:45 timed item. It is, of course, that time now. That is 2 a presentation by Steve Stoutamire regarding the closing of 3 the eastern portion of Camp Verde Road and the impact of that 4 on historical significance of the area. The information on 5 proposal by Hill Country Archeological Association to 6 National Park Service for National Historic Landmark 7 District. Mr. Stoutamire? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, before we -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Just a moment before you begin your 10 presentation. Mr. Letz? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just want to make a brief 12 statement. I think everyone is aware that the State of Texas 13 has very strict conflict of interest regulations, and they 14 are even stricter for commissioners than anybody else. Most 15 people also are aware that I own a landscape construction 16 company. That company has done work at the Camp Verde Store 17 in the past. That work has been done not for the owners of 18 the store; it's has been done for a general contractor, but 19 -- and because of that, I am not required to -- after 20 consultation with the County Attorney and other legal 21 counsel, not required by state law to remove myself from 22 consideration in this matter. However, I have chosen, just 23 to make sure that it's very clear to the public and that 24 there's no possible impropriety, -- this is a very 25 contentious issue, it looks like -- I have filed an affidavit 2-28-11 69 1 disclosing that relationship, and I am going to go ahead and 2 at this point leave the proceedings, and will not return 3 during these -- these agenda items that will discuss this 4 matter. So, I just wanted to let everybody know. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Commissioner. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can I go with him? 7 (Laughter.) 8 (Commissioner Letz left the meeting.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to be perceived as 10 someone in Wisconsin? You might be -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, I'm not going. Can't 12 run me off. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: I apologize for that delay, 14 Mr. Stoutamire. 15 MR. STOUTAMIRE: Thank you, sir. May I first just 16 do a sound check? Can everyone hear me? No, you can't? Do 17 we have a little more power with the mic? 18 AUDIENCE: There are people sitting in the 19 courtroom across the hall, and someone's gone -- that are 20 here for this, and someone went to tell them to come on over 21 here. 22 MS. PIEPER: Did they tell them? Okay. 23 MR. STOUTAMIRE: In the meantime, I'll talk as loud 24 as I can. Thank you, gentlemen, for allowing me the 25 opportunity to come before you. For the record, my name is 2-28-11 70 1 Steve Stoutamire. I live at 255 Spanish Oak Drive here in 2 Kerrville. And I'm here before you gentlemen in an 3 informational position. I represent the Hill Country 4 Archeology Association, which is a local association of both 5 vocational and professional archeologists that has a mission 6 to record, survey, and to help to preserve, to the extent we 7 can, historic and prehistoric sites in the state of Texas. 8 And we also have a mission to educate the public as to proper 9 archeological and correct archeological methods. Now, I 10 believe y'all have the handout in front of you, which is a 11 four-page handout. What I would hope -- propose to do is to, 12 first of all, tell you from our standpoint what process is in 13 place regarding the Camp Verde area at this time. And I'm 14 going to read this word-for-word for the court record. Those 15 are the bullets points for your summary. 16 The Hill Country Archeology Association has 17 submitted a nomination to the National Park Service for 18 designation of a National Historic Landmark District for the 19 Camp Verde area. The H.C.A.A. is working with the Texas 20 Historical Commission and other relevant organizations to 21 increase our chance that the National Park Service will grant 22 this national district status. Of course, there's lawyers in 23 the room, so I'm going to put no guarantee on this, that this 24 will actually happen, but certainly there is a valid effort 25 underway. And because of the rich history that's in the 2-28-11 71 1 area, a lot of which most of us here probably don't know 2 about, but has been researched and is part of this map I'm 3 going to present in a moment, we think we have at least a 4 reasonable chance. But if successful, the benefits to Kerr 5 County is, first of all, prestige that would come with -- 6 with having a National Historic Landmark District. There are 7 only about 20 of these in the state of Texas at this time. 8 With this would come the placement of national 9 signs, one or more, at exits on I-10 in Kerr County. With 10 that, a collateral effect, then, of this new district, would 11 be that there should be additional tourism dollars that would 12 come into Kerr County. Now, the portion of the Camp Verde 13 East Road that's proposed to be closed, which is on your 14 second page, and which is on this map here in front of me, is 15 here, and the Camp Verde Store area is here. If the road is 16 closed, we feel that it will negatively impact the chances to 17 achieve this National Historic Landmark District status. I 18 can't stand before you and say that it will kill it, but I 19 can honestly say that because of where it is located, and 20 with the fact that there will be at least two new markers 21 along this road, that it would -- would impair the chances. 22 With that impairment, then, would be the potential negative 23 effect that there wouldn't be these new tourism dollars that 24 would come to the county. 25 Now, that's the general statement. What I'd like 2-28-11 72 1 to do now are two things. Number one, I'd like to develop 2 the historic aspect of it so you can understand just what's 3 there. And then, number two, we'll take a look at the 4 economic impact that it might have for Kerr County. That's 5 on your second page map, and that's the map that's here 6 before me here. On this map, first of all, there are red 7 boxes. Those red boxes represent markers that are already 8 there. With the exception of this one here, which is labeled 9 Penateka Comanche, is a marker that has been approved by the 10 Texas Historical Commission, but the marker has not yet been 11 put up. It will be there, but it's just not there. The 12 other markers there we've all seen. The -- the new markers, 13 which we are proposing 10, would cover a variety of things, 14 everything from people and events, covering Native Americans, 15 covering Spanish Colonial period events, covering the Texas 16 Rangers, covering the Confederate States of America Army, and 17 the United States of America Army. 18 The last page in your handout is a detailed 19 description of what would be in each one of those markers. 20 And the markers, we think, can be a combination of both 21 national and Texas, historical in nature. Of course, the 22 position of the road is within the national -- or proposed 23 limits to the district. There would be three entrances to 24 this historic district. The first one would be on the 25 northern side of Camp Verde on the Bandera Highway, basically 2-28-11 73 1 a big sign that says you're entering a National Historic 2 Landmark District. Another one would be on the south side of 3 that Bandera Highway, south of Camp Verde, and then on the 4 east side on the county road, 480. And all the other 5 markers, both present and future, would be within that. When 6 you just look at a few things, there's a lot of new research 7 that's been done to come up with these -- the relevance for 8 these new markers. 9 But just in the matter of the armies that were 10 there, before the civil war, you can look at the people 11 that -- that walked these grounds in some capacity, and it's 12 the who's who of what would later become the civil war 13 commanders; Robert E. Lee, Albert Sidney Johnston, Kirby 14 Smith, John Bell Hood, just to mention a few. Of course, 15 that does not lessen all the other markers, which would be at 16 least two to the Texas Rangers, one to the Spanish Colonial 17 period, a series of events for that, and the Native 18 Americans. And most -- most important with the Native 19 American issue is that the road to be closed, or proposed to 20 be closed, is actually part of the old Comanche Trace. And 21 all of this research has been done with the aid of old Texas 22 maps and various other types of sources, so that would be 23 within this district. New markers would be placed. And the 24 old saying, "If you build it, they will come," we would hope 25 that would be true. 2-28-11 74 1 Now, the third page of your handout is the economic 2 issues. We don't make it a practice to be in business with 3 our archeological association, but since there's a collateral 4 issue with this historic place, then there are positives that 5 will come to Kerr County. And what we have done is 6 researched sources, which include "Texas Destinations 7 2008-2009," Hill Country Region, Office of the Governor, 8 Tourism Division, for one. Another is the 2010 study, 9 "Economic Impact of Travel on Texas." These sources cover 10 the entire state of Texas, but they cover the hill country 11 specifically. They research how many tourists are in each 12 car, how many dollars per day each tourist spends in the hill 13 country. And so what you see there -- and I'm skipping over 14 bullet point number 1; I'll come back to that. But bullet 15 point number 2 there, from this study, shows that the average 16 spending per day for one tourist is $105 in the hill country. 17 Now, these were 2009 numbers. The second number is the 18 average number of tourists per day in the hill country region 19 per car is two. It is actually 1.97, but... 20 What you need, then, is to calculate how much 21 revenue will come into the county, because now you've got 22 these two beautiful national -- or one or two beautiful 23 national signs on the interstate. There's going to be some 24 portion of the traffic that goes through Kerr County daily 25 that's going to see those and want to go into the county, and 2-28-11 75 1 then they're going to spend money. The TexDOT figure -- most 2 recent TexDOT figure for average vehicles per day in Kerr 3 County along I-10 is 12,000. We took 1 percent of that. 4 Granted, that's a guess. Maybe it's a half a percent. Maybe 5 it's one and a half, but you got to start somewhere. Just 6 for round numbers, we used 1 percent. So, when you do the 7 math, what that tells you is that there would be 120 cars, 8 theoretically new tourism that comes into this county because 9 those signs are there. That's $25,000 per day, $8.8 million 10 per year. 11 And then there's another factor that's brought out 12 in these reports, and that is what's called secondary impact. 13 For each one dollar of new tourism that's spent in the 14 county, there is a -- a secondary effect where businesses and 15 other, basically, Kerr County residents would spend money of 16 two dollars. So, that comes to $17.6 million per year. If 17 you add that all up, that's $26.4 million a year. Now, I'll 18 admit when I first saw these numbers, I was quite blown away. 19 But you can't argue with the facts that are in the report. 20 The only thing you can argue is what percentage of that 21 12,000 cars are going to come here. But I think you see the 22 point. I think we'd be happy with a half a percent. So, not 23 only -- and the unique thing about this income, it would be 24 like an annuity; it would be no -- no spending necessary from 25 the county level. It would be national spending and Texas 2-28-11 76 1 spending -- Texas state spending and private spending in 2 order to put the exact 10 markers within the historic 3 district. So, naturally, this is all very good. 4 Again, the last point I'll make is the closing of 5 the road is going to negatively impact the chances to get 6 this designation from National Park Service. We don't know 7 how long this is going to take. We've already made the first 8 application. They've come back to us and said, "The theme is 9 great. Put some more meat on the markers themselves; submit 10 that again," so we're in the process of doing that. If it's 11 ultimately successful, it could be a year or two in coming, 12 but it would be significant. And, again, I stress that it's 13 -- it's a great return with -- with no investment at the 14 county level. Gentlemen, that's all I had. I'd be glad to 15 answer any questions you might have at this time. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Stoutamire, with regard to the 17 application to obtain all these markers, what requirement, if 18 any, is there that the landowners who are affected by the -- 19 by the placement of these markers or that are in the area 20 immediately adjacent to them, what requirement is there about 21 their participation, if -- or not? 22 MR. STOUTAMIRE: I will say right up front, I'm not 23 an expert on this area, but it's my understanding -- of 24 course, all of these are going to be on public property. 25 There's none of the markers that would be placed on private 2-28-11 77 1 property. So, you might have a marker, let's say, along the 2 proposed road closing that indicates a Ranger regiment was 3 200 yards in that direction, on private land. But I don't 4 know if -- if the landowner has to -- that is near a site or 5 has the site that is referred to on public property -- I'm 6 not sure what that process is. If there's -- if there's 7 anyone in my group that might shed light on that, that might 8 be helpful. Doesn't look like there is. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Looking at it specifically as it 10 pertains to this road that's before the Court at this point 11 in time, apparently there are two markers that would -- would 12 be relevant to that roadway, that one being the old Comanche 13 Trace, and the other being the frontier regiment; I assume 14 that's the Texas Rangers. 15 MR. STOUTAMIRE: Yes, sir. That was the 16 approximately 1870's Texas group that was there. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Those markers, if that road 18 were closed, could they not be placed somewhere in the 19 right-of-way of the existing F.M. 480? 20 MR. STOUTAMIRE: Yes, sir, of course they could. 21 Takes way from the effect, however, but the reality is they 22 could be. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. The area where the old 24 Comanche Trace is, I assume that you can't specifically 25 locate that with any degree of certainty. It was just in 2-28-11 78 1 that area, the same with the Ranger regiment? 2 MR. STOUTAMIRE: We can get pretty close from the 3 old maps, I mean, that go all the way back to just basically 4 almost 1800. But that Comanche Trace road was -- if not in 5 the existing right-of-way, it was very close to it. It was 6 on the north side of the creek. As far as the Ranger 7 regiment, it's -- it's on private property. We've not been 8 out there to actually look and see if there's any sign -- any 9 physical signs of it left. But it's -- 10 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: It's somewhere approximately 11 200 yards off the right-of-way in a northerly direction. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I guess my point is that both the 13 Comanche Trace and the -- you've just indicated that the 14 Ranger regiment area is definitely on what is now existing 15 private property, and the Comanche Trace could very well be 16 on what is now private property. 17 MR. STOUTAMIRE: We can't say 100 percent for sure 18 either way on that. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any other questions for 20 Mr. Stoutamire? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: None. 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: None. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Thank you, sir. We 24 appreciate it. 25 MR. STOUTAMIRE: Thank you. 2-28-11 79 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to the next item on the 2 agenda. It's shown as a 10:50 timed item, Item 1.11; 3 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on a 4 presentation from Felipe Jimenez representing Saint 5 Christopher Properties, LLC, on expansion and development of 6 the Camp Verde Restaurant, and comments on the request to 7 close Camp Verde Road. After the presentation from 8 Mr. Jimenez, the -- an economic impact analysis report will 9 be presented on the benefit of the project for Kerr County 10 citizens, that to be given by Commissioner Overby. Mr. 11 Jimenez? 12 MR. JIMENEZ: Thank you very much. We have a 13 presentation on the screen, and Judge and Commissioners, I 14 believe you have a handout that's before. Can everyone hear 15 me okay? The -- I speak today on behalf of three entities. 16 Again, my name is Felipe Jimenez. I serve as manager of the 17 three companies, Saint Christopher Properties, Terra Fortuna 18 Properties, and Camelot Hills Group. The Saint Christopher 19 and Terra Fortuna are the property owners of the adjoining 20 properties, and Camelot Hills is the owner and operator of 21 the Camp Verde General Store. If we could move to the next 22 slide, it basically shows how the property is allocated. 23 Saint Christopher Property owns approximately a little over 24 1,900 acres. That is on either side of the Camp Verde Road 25 bordering 173 and crossing over to 480. Terra Fortuna owns 2-28-11 80 1 9 acres, which is where the Camp Verde General Store sits. 2 And, of course, then you have the general store itself. 3 If I can talk a little bit about the -- the general 4 store itself, Camelot Hills Group purchased the general store 5 back in October of 2003. We recognize the historical aspects 6 of the area. We have always been very diligent in respecting 7 the history of Camp Verde. The -- when we first purchased 8 the store, it had business -- it had sales probably of about 9 $500 a week. We've worked and made a considerable investment 10 in the store to where now, Camelot Hills Group has sales in 11 excess of $1 million a year, and I think that has just been 12 an indicator that we have been well received by the 13 community. We've been good -- good community neighbors. We 14 have worked very, very diligently to -- to honor the history 15 of Camp Verde. We have over the years spent a considerable 16 amount of funds in -- in promoting not just the store itself, 17 but the general area. 18 Since we've purchased the store, we have spent over 19 $300,000 in promotion. And those that are familiar with -- 20 with the -- with our ads that we advertise in newspapers, 21 local newspapers, travel magazines here in Kerr County, in 22 Kendall County, in San Antonio, all the way up to Dallas and 23 surrounding areas. And so we've been -- we've been very, 24 very careful in that, not only promoting our store, but also 25 promoting the -- the area itself. We have -- in our store, 2-28-11 81 1 we -- our sales have been increased significantly over the 2 years. That has allowed us to increase our staffing. When 3 we first purchased the store, we had two employees, two 4 full-time employees. We are now at 15 employees. These are 5 employees that are well paid, that have benefits. We have -- 6 we pay 100 percent of our employees' medical coverage. We 7 pay 50 percent of our employees' dependent coverage. We 8 provide vacation plans. We provide retirement plans, and so 9 I think we are very, very competitive in -- in our salaries 10 and benefit package to our staff. 11 The general store has become a -- a very inviting 12 area for lunches. We have -- we started off, when we first 13 purchased the store, we served five lunches a day. And we 14 just -- we weren't intending to be in the restaurant 15 business, but it was something that we felt we had a need in 16 the area, to where some of the local -- local property owners 17 or ranch hands were looking for a place to have lunch. We 18 started that service. And we're at the point now where we 19 have waiting lists of 45 minutes to over an hour for our 20 lunch, and we serve lunch from 11:00 to 3:00. And so we've 21 been very successful in -- in providing good quality food at 22 a very, very reasonable price to the public. Now, with that 23 in mind, we have -- we're constantly being asked for an 24 extended facility so that we can better accommodate the -- 25 the lunch crowd, and so we are proposing to build a new 2-28-11 82 1 restaurant, and that is an 8,000 square foot restaurant. 2 That would include the expansion of the store grounds. It 3 would upgrade the facilities, and it would, of course, hire 4 additional staff. 5 And, so, if I could provide you with some -- with a 6 rendition of what the restaurant would look like, you see it 7 there on the screen. You have the existing general store to 8 the left of the screen, and you have the proposed 8,000 9 square foot restaurant to the right. This has been a long 10 process that we have worked over two years now trying to work 11 with all the historical people. We got our plans approved by 12 the Texas Historical Commission in April of 2010, and that 13 was a two-year effort. Some of the people here in the 14 audience today were at our first preliminary meeting when we 15 sat down and were -- we met with people from Austin there at 16 the general store, trying to better understand what we needed 17 to do in terms of design of the restaurant, in terms of 18 honoring the historical marker that we have there at the 19 front of the store, which we're very proud of, and it's been 20 -- it's been a process. But we were able to get this thing 21 done. 22 Commissioner Williams was very helpful in the 23 initial stages of -- of this process, and so it's something 24 that we have -- we've worked for quite some time, and we're 25 very proud of the fact that we have the approval of the -- of 2-28-11 83 1 the Historical Commission as far as our plans. What they 2 want to do is make sure that we have a structure that -- that 3 -- that's better identifiable as to what is old and what is 4 new. And if you see the design that we have before you 5 today, it's quite clear as to what's new. You know, and so 6 that was one of the recommendations that they -- that they 7 had. We went through several versions with the -- with the 8 Texas Historical Commission until we got something that was 9 -- that was acceptable and approved by them. The next slide 10 shows the -- the site plan of the -- of the restaurant. The 11 area in gray is the existing store. The area there in -- 12 right next to it is the footprint of the proposed extension 13 of the -- of the restaurant, the building of the restaurant, 14 which is about 8,000 square feet. 15 We just recently completed a structure that is 16 behind here in yellow. That is part of our storage area and 17 public restroom facilities, that we just could not keep up 18 with the -- with the demand there within the store, so we 19 added some additional facilities in the back. The green area 20 to the right is -- is the proposed parking area. Right now, 21 we have quite a bit of traffic going through there, 22 especially at lunchtime in front of the store. They're 23 parking all along the Camp Verde Road. We built some 24 additional parking on the side, but certainly, the plan is 25 when we are done with the construction of the restaurant, 2-28-11 84 1 that we will have some parking off of the road there to the 2 side. Now, we've been very careful as to what kind of 3 parking that would be. We are not planning to pour a bunch 4 of concrete or -- or roll a bunch of asphalt on. This will 5 be something that will be very, very compatible to the area, 6 such as pavers that kind of highlight the grass. And so 7 that's something that we certainly will be working on as we 8 develop the parking area. 9 If I could move onto the specifics on the -- on the 10 project itself, we expect this project to be in the 11 neighborhood of two and a half million dollars, and that is 12 -- that covers construction costs and equipment that we would 13 need to -- equipment, furniture and fixtures that we would 14 need to operate the restaurant. Now, our general contractor 15 for this project would be Andiamo Builders. Andiamo Builders 16 is -- is our exclusive contractor in terms of they've built 17 just about everything that we've done there in the Camp Verde 18 area there, and they're very good contractors. Now, I got a 19 little footnote there that Andiamo Builders and Camelot was 20 recognized in 2009 by the Boerne Historical Landmark 21 Commission for the work that was done at a sister store that 22 we have in Boerne, Texas. We acquired that property, and 23 that is the Adams Building, and we refurbished the building. 24 We landscaped all the exterior; we added new trees. And so 25 we were recognized by the Boerne Historic Commission in terms 2-28-11 85 1 of what we did there, and so we plan certainly to do similar 2 work -- similar quality there in the Camp Verde area as well. 3 Along with the restaurant, we certainly expect 4 there to be additional revenue. Additional revenue -- and we 5 can talk a little bit more specific numbers at our next 6 slide, but we surely expect the demand for our restaurant to 7 grow, and that will bring additional income to the -- to Kerr 8 County, along with -- with, of course, the investment of two 9 and a half million dollars that increases the property tax 10 base, which property taxes that are on real property and 11 personal property would be paid. I would like to note also 12 that the -- the general store is in the Center Point 13 Independent School District, and so Center Point would be the 14 recipient of the school -- school property tax on this new 15 project. 16 If I could move on to the next -- to our next 17 slide, and these are our projections for the restaurant. We 18 expect sales in excess of $1.1 million. Our annual payroll 19 will be in excess of $500,000. Additional employees -- and 20 this is in addition to the 15 we already have at the general 21 store. Additional employees would be about 25, and that's a 22 very conservative number. That is based on -- on other 23 restaurant operations that we have, and so we just didn't 24 pull these numbers out of the air. This is based on -- on 25 some of the our historical numbers with another restaurant 2-28-11 86 1 that we operate in Boerne. Out of these 25, we expect 10 to 2 be full-time, 15 to be part-time wait staff and so forth. 3 These employees would be paid an average hourly rate of $11 4 an hour, and these would all -- these employees would also 5 have a full-time position. Benefits plan would include 6 medical insurance, vacation, and retirement, which is 7 something that -- that we do now for our current staff. And 8 insurance, it's a little unusual to have that in a restaurant 9 operation, but we intend to do that. We do that in our 10 restaurant in Boerne, and we intend to do that here as well. 11 Because of the new restaurant, we expect 12 significant traffic there in the Camp Verde area. We have 13 considerable traffic now. With -- with the construction of a 14 new restaurant and the sales of what we're projecting, that 15 -- that will certainly result in increased traffic. Our 16 operation hours are -- hours of operation right now for our 17 dining is from 11:00 to 3:00. With the construction of the 18 new restaurant, we expect to have dining -- evening dining as 19 well. Initially, we will start that on Thursday, Friday, and 20 Saturday, and as we develop the business, we expect that to 21 be -- to be open for evening dining throughout the rest of 22 the week. Because of that, we do expect increased traffic, 23 and thus our request before the Court today about the -- the 24 closure of the Camp Verde Road. 25 And why do we have a concern there? With the 2-28-11 87 1 bullet points, some -- some factors that play into our 2 concern, the road is -- is not paved on the shoulder, is not 3 very wide. I believe it's 16 -- 16 feet wide. There is no 4 center striping. It -- it crosses a low water -- a low water 5 crossing. There are trees that are close to the road that 6 present hazards to the traffic. There's some curves that 7 also could -- could be potentially dangerous. And we've got 8 -- there's a lack of signage and lighting. We don't have so 9 much -- we've got those concerns now. We'll have them even 10 more with increased traffic, but we'll have them even more 11 during the evening hours because of the -- because of the 12 extended operations for evening dining that -- that we hope 13 to present. And so those are things that we -- that we think 14 are -- certainly are concerns for the safety and security of 15 our customers, of our staff as well. And so we think that 16 those are things that could certainly come into play in -- in 17 the request for the road closure. 18 If I can go on to the next slide, right now, the -- 19 we expect the increased traffic to come with the building of 20 the new restaurant. We think a more appropriate avenue, 21 which I think is used by the vast, vast majority of people 22 coming into the county or the area, and that's -- and that is 23 Highway 480, along with Highway 173. And so you -- it shows 24 a map there that kind of highlights where 480 is in 25 comparison to Camp Verde, and it also shows where the Camp 2-28-11 88 1 Verde -- the old Camp Verde Road exists now. Certainly, 480 2 is much more appropriate for increased traffic than old Camp 3 Verde Road. If you would allow me just to show a few 4 pictures of the general store itself, this is just the front 5 of the store, just to give you an idea of what the store 6 currently looks like. We have the historical marker in the 7 front of the store. 8 If I can move on to the next slide, which kind of 9 shows the Camp Verde Road itself, and you see the traffic 10 there in front of the store. This is a light day at Camp 11 Verde. You see that there is cars parked both in front of 12 the store, across the road, there by the flagpole, and you 13 can see a car that's kind of sticking out there on the 14 right-hand side to where cars park all along the area across 15 from the -- from the store itself. And so we certainly have 16 quite a bit of traffic there now, and so thus our concern as 17 to what -- what the traffic's going to be like with the -- 18 with the construction of the new restaurant. We have 19 included some pictures of the road itself that just kind of 20 goes from -- goes from the general store going toward the 21 intersection on -- on 480. This is an example of -- you see 22 the road itself; it has no center striping. You see the curb 23 there and the trees that are to the side of it. We try our 24 best to keep the area clean. 25 We recently just acquired part of that -- part of 2-28-11 89 1 that property, and so I think people that know our operations 2 can understand and will -- will acknowledge that we do a very 3 good job of maintaining our property. We have our crews 4 mowing the sides of not only our -- not only this road, but 5 Highway 173 and 480. You constantly see our crews out there, 6 at no expense to the county or to the state, just trying to 7 maintain the area, keep it clean. And I think we probably 8 have -- in our 2,000 acres in Saint Christopher Properties, I 9 think a good portion of it is mowed, and it's very, very well 10 -- very well maintained. We have buffaloes in one corner. 11 We have a lot of wildlife that is free to roam the -- roam 12 the property. We do no commercial hunting in our properties. 13 This is for private use only. 14 If I can move on to the next slide, this is a 15 section of the Camp Verde Road; that is where it crosses the 16 creek there, that the -- the trees that you see at the end of 17 the road is the water crossing, and you can see the -- the 18 trees in close vicinity to the road. The next -- the next 19 slide will give a better picture of the water crossing 20 itself. As you can see, on the right-hand side you'll see a 21 white pole there that I believe at one time or another was -- 22 was a low water crossing sign that is not there. Next one is 23 a picture of the -- of the low water crossing and the curb 24 there as it goes through the water crossing. The last 25 picture is the old Camp Verde Road as it intersects 480. And 2-28-11 90 1 you can see there to where it comes up a little bit, but 2 the -- but as the -- the traffic is coming off of 480 at the 3 posted speed limit, turning onto 480 could -- could be 4 dangerous as well if people are not watching their speed as 5 they're coming off of that. 6 The -- the request for -- for the road closure is 7 made on behalf of Saint Christopher Properties and Terra 8 Fortuna that owns all the adjoining land that is along Camp 9 Verde Road as its runs from 480 to 173. Pursuant to Texas -- 10 Texas Local Government Code 263, we request the closure of 11 the road -- closure and the sale of the road. And as the 12 adjoining properties, we will, of course, purchase the 13 county -- the road from the County if it is approved by this 14 Court at an appraised value, and so that would, of course, 15 bring in some additional revenues to the county at the 16 appraised value of the road. This would eliminate the -- 17 provide -- in addition to income to the County, it will 18 provide some savings to the County in terms of it will 19 eliminate county maintenance of the -- of any responsibility 20 of the road. We believe it will eliminate the hazard to the 21 public, especially with the increased traffic, and the 22 closure of the road will not affect the park area, which is 23 right off of 173, the state park area which is right across 24 the street from the -- from the store. 25 And here in a few slides, we'll show you where we 2-28-11 91 1 propose to put some closures on the -- some gates on the road 2 if -- if our request is approved. If I can go on to the next 3 slide, this is a plat that was prepared by the County 4 Surveyors, which shows the -- shows the road and highlights. 5 You've got blue, pink, and green. The blue and the pink is 6 the -- the property underlying the county road was deeded to 7 the county back, I believe, in 1946, and the next area in 8 green was deeded to the county in 1948. The next slide 9 identifies the adjoining property owners. Terra Fortuna, 10 which is -- which primarily owns the property around the 11 general store, is highlighted in yellow, and Saint 12 Christopher Properties is highlighted in orange. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can I ask you a question? 14 MR. JIMENEZ: Sure. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: On that particular slide 16 right there, how does -- how does your ownership affect the 17 roadside park? The state roadside park? 18 MR. JIMENEZ: It doesn't. It just -- that -- I 19 believe the yellow area there right off of 173, I believe 20 that was deeded to the -- half from the center of the road 21 was -- center of the road was deeded to the County. The 22 other -- from the center of the road to the state park 23 remains state property. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we own half -- half of 25 the road there? Is that what you're saying? 2-28-11 92 1 MR. JIMENEZ: I believe so. Is that correct? 2 MR. FISHER: I believe that's correct. And you 3 can -- in the next slide, I think you'll see the location of 4 the state park. 5 MR. JIMENEZ: The next slide shows -- it shows an 6 aerial view of the area. You can see where the general store 7 is, and right directly across from that, Commissioner, you'll 8 see the state park right off of 173. And you see the road 9 extending from 173 to where it intersects Highway 480. We 10 have highlighted two arrows there to where we would propose 11 to put some gates to the road. And we have a west gate and 12 an east gate. As we move on to the next slide, it kind of 13 zooms in a little bit as to where the proposed gate would be, 14 and that is turning beyond the -- beyond the store to where 15 there is -- there is adequate access to the state park, as 16 well as to the store itself. The entire stretch from 480 to 17 173 is one mile. And with the gates that we propose, we will 18 close off seven-tenths of that mile, and the remaining would 19 be left open to the public. And in regard to the last slide, 20 well, that just kind of shows the -- where the east gate 21 would be, which would sit approximately 300 feet from -- from 22 the intersection of 480 to where we would allow traffic to be 23 able to -- to exit off to the road and make a turnaround to 24 come back. But that will certainly be clearly visible from 25 480. 2-28-11 93 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What would be the benefit to 2 that? 3 MR. JIMENEZ: Pardon? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What would the benefit be to 5 having a 300-foot piece of road and having a turnaround? 6 MR. JIMENEZ: It's just so that we could -- so that 7 as people are traveling down 480, and they think that's a 8 public road, that they would have enough turnaround that 9 where they could make a -- a safe stop and make a turnaround. 10 AUDIENCE: More dangerous. 11 MR. JIMENEZ: And that concludes my presentation. 12 I would like to make some -- some additional comments. I 13 know Mr. Stoutamire made a presentation as far as the 14 National Registry. I can say that we support that. We are 15 all in favor of promoting Camp Verde as a historical area, 16 and we will -- we will support that effort. We've been 17 meeting, as I said, about two years now for -- to get 18 approval from the Texas Historical Commission. It was at 19 that time that Dr. Luther approached me and informed me about 20 this effort. That was over two years ago. And so I 21 indicated then, and I indicate now, that we will support 22 that. And I think part of -- of that effort is, what do the 23 adjoining property owners have to say about that application? 24 And we will be in full support of it. I think the closure of 25 the -- of the road will not prejudice that application. I 2-28-11 94 1 think having the support of the adjoining property owners 2 would actually help in that effort. 3 We certainly support the historical markers that 4 they are proposing. We -- we've said it -- I told 5 Dr. Luther -- I spoke to him a little over a week ago. When 6 we were here last in December, I did mention to the Court 7 that would I seek a meeting with the Kerr County historical 8 people, which we did. We met, and I think it was a very good 9 meeting. It wasn't -- the intent wasn't to try and convince 10 them or sway them to our position, just as they were not 11 going to convince us to theirs, but I think we came away from 12 that meeting -- I think it was very positive. It was more -- 13 more just informative in terms of telling them where we were 14 coming from. We also expressed to them at that meeting that 15 we will work with them in promoting the area, and if they 16 needed some help as far as the markers that were being 17 discussed, we could certainly help along that regard. I 18 asked them why hadn't -- hasn't more been done to that -- to 19 that effort, and they said because of lack of funding. Well, 20 we could certainly help with that in terms of providing some 21 funds for -- for markers, both on a National Registry or with 22 the -- with the local. And so that's something that we fully 23 support. I don't think that -- that our request hampers 24 that. 25 In fact, I think that, certainly, with the 2-28-11 95 1 increased traffic that I think our business will bring to the 2 area, which has been proven over the last six-plus years, I 3 think we would certainly increase the traffic flow to Camp 4 Verde, bring additional tax revenues to the County, and would 5 be fully supportive of that. Back in 2006, we -- we 6 celebrated the sesquicentennial of the camel drive, the 7 Indianola to Camp Verde -- a reenactment of the camels 8 landing in Indianola, coming over to Camp Verde. We were a 9 sponsor of that. We had one of our staff people actually 10 ride with the Camel Corps as they came. A year after, in 11 2007, we celebrated the sesquicentennial of the general 12 store. We paid for the camels to come back. Camels aren't 13 free. The operators have expenses, and we paid for that, and 14 I believe that cost was almost $5,000. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where do you rent a camel? 16 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Camels. 17 MR. JIMENEZ: There -- there are some organizations 18 that -- the people that we actually rented the camels from 19 are -- they provide -- they actually provide them. I don't 20 know what they're doing now because of the situation in 21 Egypt, but they were -- they certainly provided caravans in 22 Egypt. I think most of the camels that you see in most -- 23 most of the motion pictures and those type of -- of events 24 are -- are provided by this Camel Corps. And so we're 25 constantly being asked, when are the camels coming back? 2-28-11 96 1 Well, we hope to bring them back, but it's something to where 2 I think we -- as we commemorate special occasions, we will 3 certainly work with them to bring them back. We've had 4 requests of, why don't we have camels on site? Well, it's a 5 little expensive to maintain camels, and camels are -- can be 6 quite difficult creatures, as the -- as the U.S. Army found 7 out back when they were doing the initial camel experiment. 8 They work well; they could carry a lot of cargo, but they 9 smelled horrible and their temperament wasn't very good. And 10 so -- but that's certainly something that just is our way of 11 contributing back to the historical aspect of the area. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sheriff's new vehicle. 13 MR. JIMENEZ: Pardon? 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Maybe the camels could 15 replace some of our Sheriff's cars. He could maintain them. 16 MR. JIMENEZ: It could provide some savings. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right after the Commissioners. 18 MR. JIMENEZ: That concludes my presentation. I 19 will welcome any -- any questions. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Jimenez, if I might -- and I'm 21 looking specifically at Page Number 21 of the presentation. 22 Just trying to get some clarification. 23 MR. JIMENEZ: Yes. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the areas adjacent to the 25 Camp Verde Road, and I'm particularly focused on that long 2-28-11 97 1 rectangular piece there just south of the road, adjacent to 2 the park area. Yes. Is that area presently accessible to 3 the public? 4 MR. JIMENEZ: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. We 5 purchased that -- that property not too long ago, and the 6 previous owner had -- had some signs posted there about 7 keeping off the property. Since we acquired it, we've 8 cleaned up that whole bank along -- along the creek there. 9 We have picnic tables. It's accessible to not only our 10 customers, but certainly people that are visiting the state 11 park, and we keep that very nice and mowed. Of course, we'll 12 never be able to build anything there, because it's in the 13 floodplain, but we keep it well maintained, and it's open to 14 the public. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: And that's something you've done 16 just very recently? 17 MR. JIMENEZ: We did it since we purchased the 18 property. We were not able to do that before. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 20 MR. JIMENEZ: Prior to that, we owned -- we owned 21 some property that was right next to the state park. We kept 22 that mowed. And when we were able to acquire the adjoining 23 property, that it allowed us sufficient -- sufficient 24 property to where we could bring in the picnic tables and so 25 forth, and were able to clean out that -- that whole area. 2-28-11 98 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So that even though it's 2 privately owned, you've -- you've put in these facilities for 3 the public? 4 MR. JIMENEZ: That's correct. And those will 5 remain there. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: And you intend for that to remain 7 available for the public? 8 MR. JIMENEZ: Very much so. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And you would maintain that? 10 MR. JIMENEZ: That's correct. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's continue on to the east, then, 12 from that portion. Other areas adjacent to the road, are 13 those accessible to the public? 14 MR. JIMENEZ: They are currently accessible to the 15 public. We propose to put the gates to where that will be 16 within -- to where those will be fenced off. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 MR. JIMENEZ: Saint Christopher Properties has -- 19 which owns the orange part of that, we've had -- we've had 20 some concerns, sir. And there's -- it's not fenced off now, 21 and we constantly have to have our on-site people monitoring 22 the area. We have very good views from the top of the hill 23 as to what's going on. We see -- we see headlights; 24 sometimes we hear gunshots. Sometimes we find dead animals 25 along the creek from people that are doing poaching at night, 2-28-11 99 1 bow and arrow, and so that's been a concern to us as well. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Should you wish at any time to fence 3 that area that's east of what you've maintained for the 4 public, by virtue of your ownership, you'd have that option, 5 would you not? 6 MR. JIMENEZ: To fence it? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 8 MR. JIMENEZ: Yes. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 10 MR. JIMENEZ: Yes. I -- I doubt that whatever 11 fencing we would -- we will put down along the creek -- which 12 we have no plans to do that at this time. We will just put a 13 gate there in the -- in the road. The -- whatever fencing, 14 of course, has to consider that we have a floodplain there. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. Any other questions for 16 Mr. Jimenez? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir. Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Felipe -- go ahead, Bruce. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, you go ahead. 20 MR. JIMENEZ: If I could just make one more 21 comment, Commissioner? 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Go ahead. 23 MR. JIMENEZ: And that is, I know that there's a 24 lot of historical interest with -- with the area. We will 25 certainly, as they do in other parts -- for example, the old 2-28-11 100 1 fort, that's on private property right now. I think there's 2 limited access to the public there. We would certainly be 3 willing to consider requests on a limited basis for people 4 that have -- that have appropriate historical credentials 5 that may want to visit a site. We could certainly do that, 6 per -- per request. We wouldn't open it to the general 7 public, but people that have a -- a genuine historical 8 consideration or purpose for wanting to see something there, 9 we could certainly work with them on a case-by-case basis. 10 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Felipe, I got a few questions 11 for you. First of all, I'd be real curious, if I polled 12 everybody out here today, I'm real curious what the favorite 13 is, the Ooh-la-la or the Hotsy Totsy, their favorite 14 sandwich? 15 MR. JIMENEZ: I think the King Arthur. You forgot 16 to mention the King Arthur. 17 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: The King Arthur. 18 MR. JIMENEZ: Or the Ooh-la-la. 19 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Ooh-la-la is a good sandwich. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm going -- I'll go with 21 the King Arthur. 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Question for you. How many 23 -- how many -- on a busy day, how many lunches is a busy day? 24 MR. JIMENEZ: Over 250. 25 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 2-28-11 101 1 MR. JIMENEZ: And for those that -- that aren't 2 familiar with the store, we don't have a commercial kitchen. 3 Our -- our kitchen will probably be no -- it's probably 4 smaller than this area right here. 5 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. Like a small pantry. 6 I mean, just a very small -- 7 MR. JIMENEZ: Just about. Just about. 8 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I have a couple of questions. 9 And, again, for folks that are here as well, of course, you 10 know, recently my appointment to this position a little over 11 two months ago, coming into this position -- and, Felipe, you 12 have mentioned, of course, as well that it has been ongoing 13 for the last two years. I know one of the things that, with 14 the appointment of my position to come into, was to -- to 15 look at projects and assess as best as I can what was going 16 on. You mentioned about Commissioner Williams' efforts in 17 order to help assist with the Texas Historical Commission, 18 and I've been briefed by a lot of those minutes and notes 19 from my -- former Commissioner Williams and his information. 20 I have also looked at all the information that we've talked 21 about over the last two years that have been ongoing; there 22 have been a series of e-mails and dialogue back and forth. 23 You mentioned earlier about the meeting that was 24 held, and I do want to make mention for the record today, on 25 January 12th of this year, we did facilitate and -- I did 2-28-11 102 1 facilitate a meeting with the Kerr County Historical 2 Commission. I see many of you are here today, and I'm glad 3 that you're here today, and here for the presentation and for 4 the public hearing part. And you got to hear Felipe's 5 presentation on that day as well. Again, like I said, it's 6 been ongoing for two years. I also want everyone to know, 7 for the record, I did also verify through the Texas 8 Historical Commission all of the archeological -- I mean the 9 drawings that you had. Architectural drawings have been 10 verified and blessed. They have all been approved as far as 11 the drawings are concerned. So, again, those are all things 12 that, again, verifying all that information. You've done 13 exactly everything -- I know Commissioner Williams was 14 involved with those first renditions of those drawings that 15 were discussed, and now that has been approved as far as 16 what's there. 17 Other things, of course, I'm glad to hear you 18 saying again -- again, obviously, your investment there, the 19 company's investment there understands that the Camp Verde 20 area is a historical area, and you're saying that here again 21 today. The area that we're talking about is a historical 22 area, and I appreciate you talking about that and addressing 23 that. You've also -- you've also made the comment, I want 24 to -- again, you mentioned here, and the same comments that 25 were made to the Kerr County Historical Commission on the 2-28-11 103 1 12th as you said again here today, your willingness to work 2 with the Historical Commission on markers, help them defer 3 some of those costs on some of those things. And also, 4 you've expressed your interest to help support the 5 archeological folks who've made an application request for a 6 national historical landmark, that you would be willing to 7 also help in their efforts in that application process as 8 well. Is that correct? 9 MR. JIMENEZ: That's correct. 10 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. I just wanted to ask 11 those questions. And then, Commissioner Oehler, if you have 12 some questions, and then I have a couple of other things to 13 make comments on. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Now, you were talking about 15 the safety concerns, for one thing, and I'm not real sure 16 that that -- if you're going to build a separate parking lot, 17 I'm not real sure that that has a lot of weight, in my mind. 18 If you're not going to use that old roadway or something, or 19 roadway that's there now to park cars on. 20 MR. JIMENEZ: Our concern is the evening dining. 21 And, you know, the majority of our customers, granted, will 22 exit off of 173, either go into Kerrville, Bandera back to 23 San Antonio. They'll use 480, but we -- right now, our store 24 closes at 5 o'clock. And so, certainly, we -- we intend to 25 have evening operations, hopefully have them seven days a 2-28-11 104 1 week. We'll start with three days, but our concern is, what 2 happens in the late evening? 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Have you done any kind of 4 traffic count or anything on the number of vehicles that 5 are -- 6 MR. JIMENEZ: No, we haven't. We have not done a 7 formal count. That is just based on -- on what we have 8 observed, what our staff people tell us, both at the Camp -- 9 Camelot Hills staff, as well as Saint Christopher Properties. 10 They're there 24 hours. We've got people on site. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 'Cause I don't know -- you 12 know, the deal about, you know, narrow -- narrow low water 13 crossing, that thing's been in existence for a long time. 14 That no center striping, that kind of goes with most county 15 roads. 16 MR. JIMENEZ: I understand. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You really don't have any 18 liability on the county easement -- or the county roads; you 19 know, the County has the liability. And we're -- we wouldn't 20 have that much, as long as we follow state law. 21 MR. JIMENEZ: I realize that. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, it's -- I can argue 23 this thing either way. And I don't believe that you're going 24 to see that much increased traffic on that road because of 25 where your customers are coming from -- coming from and 2-28-11 105 1 leaving back to or whatever. I don't think that's a big 2 issue. And as far as signage -- signage and lighting goes, 3 you know, there could be some things done in the immediate 4 vicinity of your -- of your store and your proposed new 5 restaurant. And I applaud you on doing what you're doing, 6 because that is a great area. You've done a fantastic job in 7 promoting that, and the food is good. I eat there 8 periodically, and it's a great thing for Kerr County. I'm 9 just not real sure that -- you know, we've got a whole bunch 10 of folks sitting out here that are -- that don't want us to 11 close that road. 12 MR. JIMENEZ: I understand. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And I hope that that would 14 not run you off in any way. You know, we would work with you 15 somehow to make it better and make it workable if it's not 16 closed. 17 MR. JIMENEZ: Well, it's certainly -- we certainly 18 recognize that there's opposition. I know this has been well 19 publicized in the newspapers. I believe there's about -- 20 about four articles. We have refused to comment on that, 21 'cause I don't think that's the proper forum. I'd rather do 22 it here before -- before the Court. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. 24 MR. JIMENEZ: And that's why we met individually 25 with the Historical Commission. But, certainly, it is -- the 2-28-11 106 1 road closure is a factor for us. It's something that we -- 2 that we -- that weighs heavily on our decision on the 3 restaurant. We have a concern. Granted, we -- as you well 4 said, the liability there is with the County. There should 5 be something there on the road itself. But we, as property 6 owners, will also have some liability in -- in that, to where 7 we just think in terms of overall risk management for our 8 operations, that we would rather that road be closed. We -- 9 we don't think it will negatively impact the -- the area in 10 general, just because we -- the markers will still be there. 11 Most of the other historical sites there are part of our 12 property. I know as far as there on Camp Verde Road, you 13 have the Ranger post. I believe there was a school that was 14 there as well that is -- that's closer there to the 15 intersection with 480. Those markers could still be there. 16 It's just -- you just say 200 yards from here or 300 yards 17 from here, you know, there existed -- existed this site, and 18 that's what those markers will say. So, I don't think that 19 the road closure will have an impact on that. It's just 20 something that we feel that would -- that would allow us 21 to -- to better manage the -- the operations there at the 22 restaurant. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So you don't have -- I 24 haven't been out there in a while and driven that stretch of 25 road. Is it fenced on the creek side of -- 2-28-11 107 1 MR. JIMENEZ: A portion of it. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's not fenced all the way 3 because it gets washed out every time it floods? 4 MR. JIMENEZ: From 480 heading towards the store, 5 both sides of that is fenced, certain sections. As you get 6 across the creek approaching the store, usually you have some 7 -- some fence there, but not -- not as you -- not directly 8 across the -- the store, and probably about two-tenths of a 9 mile is not fenced. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How much of that is in the 11 floodplain? 12 MR. JIMENEZ: On the opposite side of the road? 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, on the south side of 14 the Camp Verde Road. 15 MR. JIMENEZ: I think all of it is. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: All of it's in the 17 floodplain? In the 100-year -- 18 MR. JIMENEZ: Mm-hmm. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'd like to hear some of the 20 -- I mean, that's kind of my questions for now. I'll 21 probably have some more later. 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Let me -- Commissioner 23 Oehler, let me real quick -- I know we're getting towards 24 getting to Item 1.12, I believe, under the public hearing. 25 We definitely want to hear everybody's comments. I did want 2-28-11 108 1 to also -- just for the record, I would like to state the 2 expansion, what the investment would mean to Kerr County, so 3 that that is in our record today. Of course, with the 4 construction of $2.5 million, we do know that there would 5 be -- of the construction materials, 360,000 was mentioned in 6 this report that would be purchased in Kerr County. There 7 would be about $500,000 spent in fixtures, equipment, and -- 8 well, for equipment and fixtures. Mr. Jimenez also made the 9 comment about 25 jobs that would be created. Ten of those 10 jobs are FTE's, or what we call full-time employees. He did 11 mention the benefit of paid medical, retirement, and 12 additional benefits. And the other 15 would be part-time; 13 again, those benefits would be there. 14 So, basically, we averaged out -- the 25 is about 15 half a million; we would have 20,000 a job. And you would 16 ask if those are low wages. Well, again, those 10 jobs that 17 would be FTE's would be more than $20,000 a year that we're 18 talking about; would be probably closer to what a Kerr County 19 median wage would be. The other 15 would be, of course, 20 part-time employees. The -- the construction impact, as far 21 as our employment is concerned, is not high. I mean, it is 22 4.5 because, again, would be -- just Kerr County employees. 23 But it needs to be mentioned, the total construction and the 24 worker benefit to the community with a -- a direct economic 25 output would be equivalent to about $625,000, which would be 2-28-11 109 1 equivalent to that part of the construction. It needs to be 2 mentioned for that. The operational part, of course, the 25 3 jobs would -- and, again, Mr. Jimenez, you correct me if I'm 4 wrong, but that $500,000, you're using a very conservative 5 figure; is that correct? 6 MR. JIMENEZ: That's correct. 7 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: The economic benefit of 25 8 jobs with $500,000 income would -- the benefit would have an 9 economic benefit output of 1.1 million. It would also create 10 an additional indirect job of 4.1 -- and, again, I apologize 11 for this information not being in front of you. We do not 12 have that capacity with the technology up here to make those 13 quick changes, so I'm sorry. It was prepared for you 14 downstairs to see these numbers, so they were prepared. 15 Total employment, then, as a benefit of the expansion would 16 be 29.1 in Kerr County. The output benefit would be on an 17 annual basis directly of about 1.5 million. And, again, 18 output is going to be buying dollars in our county that 19 generate that -- that information. I think the other thing 20 is, as far as Commissioners need to look at, is what is the 21 revenue that's going to be generated from an expansion like 22 this? And then with a budget today that we're all facing 23 challenges with trying to look at how we are going to get 24 dollars to look at how we can increase our budgets and not 25 have tax increases on our folks or our citizens, we have to 2-28-11 110 1 look at economic development opportunities, and we should 2 look at all of them as they all come to us. 3 The expansion dollars here, what we're looking at 4 with $1.1 million in additional revenue that you talked about 5 would generate annually sales tax to Kerr County of $5,500 a 6 year. The construction dollars only in the first year, 7 $1,800 in sales tax would be generated only for the materials 8 purchased. So, for only the first year, the sales tax 9 benefit to Kerr County would be $7,300 in sales tax. The 10 total sales tax benefit to the County over 10 years, just 11 with the 1.1 revenue, would be $56,800 in 10 years. The ad 12 valorem property taxes, with the expansion of this facility 13 and the merchandise number that you used, and with the 14 expansion of 8,000 square feet, would give us a collective ad 15 valorem property tax of new revenue to the County of $11,107. 16 So, with that, on a 10-year basis, the collective benefit to 17 the county would be $111,075 on ad valorem property tax with 18 the numbers Mr. Jimenez has mentioned. So, with that, if we 19 looked at the total new revenue that would be generated due 20 to the expansion of the project, we would be looking at 21 $16,607 from sales tax with the numbers that are mentioned, 22 and the new development of a $2.5 million investment. And 23 then you also mentioned, Mr. Jimenez, the Center Point 24 Independent School District would also have sales tax 25 collected on the same amount; is that correct? 2-28-11 111 1 MR. JIMENEZ: That's correct. 2 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay, thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further with regard to this 4 particular agenda item? 5 MR. WRIGHT: Is this not the time to discuss -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 7 MR. WRIGHT: Is this an opportunity to discuss the 8 presentation? Can we ask questions? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: We're going to have a public 10 hearing, and I would think that if you have any comments 11 or -- but this would not give him the opportunity to respond. 12 So, at this point, why don't -- if you've got specific 13 questions about the presentation that he made, in order that 14 he may have an opportunity to respond, let's go ahead and -- 15 and do that now. You had a question, sir? 16 MR. WRIGHT: Yes, sir, I have several. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: And your name and address, please? 18 MR. WRIGHT: Brian Wright, Center Point. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, sir. 20 MR. WRIGHT: One, I'd like to make a comment first. 21 I'm sorry that Commissioner Letz decided to recuse himself on 22 this issue, since he was the one that actually brought it up 23 in November, and brought it up under a security concern. 24 AUDIENCE: We can't hear. 25 AUDIENCE: We can't hear you. 2-28-11 112 1 MR. WRIGHT: Brian Wright, Center Point. I was 2 making a comment that I was sorry that Commissioner Letz 3 recused himself on this, since he was actually the one that 4 brought it up in November due to security concerns. At that 5 point, I believe that y'all asked for the road closure from 6 -- due to security concerns. Can you tell me -- and in this, 7 kind of rolled into it, one of the other points you made 8 about headlights, poaching, dead animals along the creek and 9 so forth, can you tell me how many issues you've had as far 10 as security concerns along the Camp Verde Road? 11 MR. JIMENEZ: The concerns that -- if I may, the 12 existing concerns is -- is in terms of what we're seeing as 13 far as night activity there. Certainly, the -- the 14 additional concerns is what will be brought on by the 15 increased traffic, but the concerns that we have at this 16 point is -- is the night. 17 MR. WRIGHT: Has any of the -- have any of those 18 concerns been reported to the Texas Game Warden or -- 19 MR. JIMENEZ: No, because by the time -- by the 20 time we report those, poachers are gone. You know, we find 21 -- we find the evidence laying there along the creek. You 22 know, if we report that in an effort to try and apprehend 23 these people, they're not there. 24 MR. WRIGHT: Can you give me some specifics on what 25 kind of animals you found? Sounds like you're having people 2-28-11 113 1 shoot them. 2 MR. JIMENEZ: It's more bow and arrow. There is -- 3 there's a lot of Whitetail there. You have -- there's no 4 exotics that are running outside the fence line, but it's 5 Whitetail. 6 MR. WRIGHT: So, none of those have been reported 7 to -- 8 MR. JIMENEZ: No, they have not. 9 MR. WRIGHT: -- game wardens or the Sheriff's 10 Department? 11 MR. JIMENEZ: No, they have not. 12 MR. WRIGHT: Do you have any ideas about how many 13 different times the Sheriff's Office was called on that road 14 last year? For what reasons? 15 MR. JIMENEZ: No. 16 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. 17 MR. JIMENEZ: I'm not -- 18 MR. WRIGHT: Seems like if there are security 19 concerns -- 20 MR. JIMENEZ: I'm not aware of the -- if we're 21 calling the Sheriff's Department on it. You know, our 22 concern is what would happen once the restaurant is closed. 23 You know, we've got -- when we have special events and things 24 along that line, we have security. There will be hired 25 security that some of the people can -- we always provide 2-28-11 114 1 adequate security personnel for those type of events. 2 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. It occurred -- correct me if 3 I'm wrong, Sheriff. I think there was about 54 calls? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Wright, we're in a question and 5 answer session here. If you have some comments you wish to 6 make outside of the presentation, you can do that during the 7 public hearing. 8 MR. WRIGHT: Okay, my apologies. I'll go back to 9 my questions, then. One of your concerns was traffic on 173, 10 and stating that if you closed the Camp Verde Road, that 11 traffic would no longer be a concern. 12 MR. JIMENEZ: Not -- not on 173. 13 MR. WRIGHT: Seems like there'd be increased 14 traffic on 173. 15 MR. JIMENEZ: I wasn't saying about traffic on 173. 16 It was on Camp Verde Road. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mr. Wright, if you'll step 18 back over there with that mic I'm giving you, that way he'll 19 face that way and the audience can hear it a little bit 20 better. 21 MR. WRIGHT: All right. Can you tell us what the 22 appraised property -- the value of the property is underneath 23 the road, and how much property is involved? 24 MR. JIMENEZ: I don't know what that is. That's 25 going to be determined by the County. 2-28-11 115 1 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. And could parking be moved 2 north of the store on -- on some of your property that you 3 have north of the store? 4 MR. JIMENEZ: Well, the area that I showed there on 5 the presentation, the -- the green area, which we think that 6 would be adequate parking for the restaurant operation. And 7 that's -- I think the -- can we get that on screen? That -- 8 that green -- green parking that we have showing there is on 9 property that is owned by Terra Fortuna, LLC. It does not 10 come into the properties of Saint Christopher -- the property 11 lines of Saint Christopher Properties. 12 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. It just seems like where the 13 yellow building is, that possibly your parking could be moved 14 up there. It could leave the -- 15 MR. JIMENEZ: We have parking in the back. That's 16 taken up by our employees; we have no more room back there. 17 We -- we -- there's a fence line right -- we have -- right 18 behind that yellow building, there is a -- there's a parking 19 area there that is fully occupied by -- by our staff. Beyond 20 -- there's a fence line beyond the parking that belongs to 21 Saint Christopher Properties, sir. They are separate 22 entities. We will not be using any -- any property belonging 23 to Saint Christopher as part of the Camelot retail operation. 24 MR. WRIGHT: So, the green parking that you have on 25 the screen right there would actually be on Camelot property? 2-28-11 116 1 MR. JIMENEZ: That's correct. 2 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. All right, that's it. Does 3 anybody else have any questions? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: This gentleman had back here. Come 5 forward and -- 6 MR. GONZALES: I don't need this. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: -- give us your name and address. 8 MR. GONZALES: Joel Gonzales, Center Point. 361 9 Stoneleigh Road. You want my credentials? I'll give you my 10 credentials. What you're proposing is building a bigger 11 restaurant to accommodate the people that many of us are 12 sending to your restaurant. 13 MR. JIMENEZ: That's correct. 14 MR. GONZALES: Many of us -- I am one of them that 15 sends people to your restaurant. Why do you need that road 16 closed to build a restaurant? Why? 17 MR. JIMENEZ: I just told that in my presentation. 18 MR. GONZALES: We live here in the Texas Hill 19 Country. I'm personally from Tahoka, Texas, a little Indian 20 town south of Lubbock. I'm 100 percent Texan, and I love 21 Center Point. Center Point has done great things for me and 22 my family -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Sir? 24 MR. GONZALES: -- and many other people. I'm 25 getting down to the questions. 2-28-11 117 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's have questions with regard to 2 the presentation. 3 MR. GONZALES: Yes, sir. Now, evidently, there's 4 something going on here that if you don't get the road, you 5 probably won't build the restaurant. Security things, we -- 6 Brian just talked about. We drive in the county all the 7 time. We are used to narrow roads. We are used to those low 8 water crossings. We are used to all of that. Now, the city 9 folks might not be used to driving where one car passes every 10 30, 40 minutes, or every 10, 20 minutes, so all of a sudden 11 they see something like a light comes up, they might jump out 12 there. But we know. We drive county roads; we are very 13 secure. On that road itself, if I'm not mistaken, very 14 little accidents have happened. And I can get the research 15 on that. I don't know if you have the research. But even 16 coming out -- 17 MR. JIMENEZ: I'm not claiming that. There's not 18 accidents that happen there now. 19 MR. GONZALES: There is none, and there won't be 20 probably at all again, when this -- because people are that 21 careful out there. You're driving in the county. 22 MR. JIMENEZ: If I may, could I respond? 23 MR. GONZALES: Yes, sir. 24 MR. JIMENEZ: The -- I know that a lot of the local 25 folks are used to driving those roads. Our customer base 2-28-11 118 1 goes beyond -- beyond Kerr County, in that we expend a 2 considerable effort to attract tourists to Camp Verde. And 3 so there are -- our ads -- our advertisements are throughout 4 the state of Texas, and so we certainly hope to attract -- 5 just like they mentioned in the -- in the presentation before 6 with the -- the National Registry, the aim here is to attract 7 the tourism to Kerrville, to Kerr County, to Camp Verde. And 8 so, sir, we hope for a lot more visitors from those areas. 9 MR. GONZALES: We will have, because I'm the -- I'm 10 the -- I'm working on that also. You said you have your own 11 construction company? 12 MR. JIMENEZ: No. 13 MR. GONZALES: You don't? 14 MR. JIMENEZ: No. 15 MR. GONZALES: How much of your companies here -- 16 you have three companies -- have utilized construction 17 companies out of town? Say you're building in Boerne. 18 MR. JIMENEZ: We -- 19 MR. GONZALES: How many companies did you bring in 20 from Boerne to build whatever you did? 21 MR. JIMENEZ: Our general contractor is Andiamo 22 Builders. Andiamo Builders decides on the subcontractors 23 that he utilizes for his projects. We are -- are particular 24 with Andiamo, because we recognize the work. He knows what 25 we like. He knows the kind of quality that we want in our 2-28-11 119 1 operations, and so we use them, not only here in -- in Kerr 2 County; we use them in Kendall County. We use them in San 3 Antonio. 4 MR. GONZALES: Where's the company based from? 5 Where's his company from? 6 MR. JIMENEZ: He has his offices in Kendall County. 7 MR. GONZALES: Kendall County, okay. And that is 8 it. Thank you, sir. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Okay. 10 MR. JIMENEZ: May I add something else? People 11 might wonder why he's officed in Kendall County. It's 12 because right now we are concentrating a lot of our 13 construction in Kendall County. At one time, he did have a 14 satellite office in Saint Christopher Properties, sir, in -- 15 in our ranch office. But the demands on the Andiamo Builders 16 has been geared toward Kendall County at this time, and so 17 that's why he has his -- he still maintains a satellite 18 office in Kerr County, but he is primarily operating out of 19 Kendall at this point. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 MS. WALLING: My name is Sharon Walling. I live at 22 2062 Summit Crest. Mr. Jimenez? 23 MR. JIMENEZ: Yes. 24 MS. WALLING: I just have a question. You said the 25 Texas Historical Commission had approved your plans? 2-28-11 120 1 MR. JIMENEZ: That's correct. 2 MS. WALLING: Did they know that you were going to 3 close the road when they approved your plans? 4 MR. JIMENEZ: No. Their -- your jurisdiction is on 5 the construction itself, and -- and so it was more in terms 6 of getting their approval on the -- on the con -- on the 7 construction to finish out how it will incorporate to this. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Other questions with regard to the 9 presentation? Yes, sir? Please come forward, and tell us -- 10 MR. COLLINS: My name's Dennis Collins, 4917 11 Bandera Highway. Mr. Jimenez, thank you for your time here 12 today, all the work you've gone through. I have a simple 13 question. As I understand it, are you refusing to go ahead 14 with this expansion if the County does not award this road? 15 MR. JIMENEZ: I'm not saying that. I'm saying -- 16 MR. COLLINS: Well, you said that it was -- 17 MR. JIMENEZ: -- we would have to reconsider based 18 on further assessment on the project based on the decision 19 here as to whether we move forward or not. 20 MR. COLLINS: Knowing that any liability resulting 21 from the road has nothing to do with you or your companies, 22 with the liability? My point was -- is -- 23 MR. JIMENEZ: Let me just answer this. I've been 24 in business for a long time. 25 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir. 2-28-11 121 1 MR. JIMENEZ: As I'm sure most of the people here 2 have as well. 3 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir. 4 MR. JIMENEZ: You know very well that people -- the 5 general public could certainly make any claims or assertions 6 on -- on a liability as to who is responsible for what. 7 MR. COLLINS: That's correct. 8 MR. JIMENEZ: And so, certainly, while it's been 9 mentioned here that the County is responsible for the road, 10 you know, we, as operators of a business, also have a 11 responsibility. You know, when someone falls, be it they 12 fall on our property or they fall in the middle of the road, 13 guess who has to attend to them? They look to our staff. 14 We're the ones that have to call the -- the ambulance 15 service, and we're the ones who have to attend to them. Why? 16 'Cause they look to us; we're the ones who have -- have 17 personnel there. 18 MR. COLLINS: I understand. I've been there 19 myself. 20 MR. JIMENEZ: My point is, you have the same 21 responsibilities off of 173. If your patrons come out going 22 to 173, which is closer than the whole road is coming down, 23 so you have that same responsibility. That's correct. 24 MR. COLLINS: What it just sounded like to me was, 25 what you're doing is kind of holding this road as a carrot in 2-28-11 122 1 front of a donkey in order to go ahead and build the -- the 2 restaurant. 3 MR. JIMENEZ: I'm trying to explain our business 4 reasons as to why we're requesting the road closure, based on 5 our assessment as to our risk management for our business. 6 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir. 7 MR. JIMENEZ: And so our conclusion is to request 8 for a road closure. 9 MR. COLLINS: Okay. I guess the only other 10 question is, we mentioned several different owners or 11 managers for this thing. Are the boards of directors all 12 connected to the same properties? 13 MR. JIMENEZ: I -- 14 MR. COLLINS: Each separate division? 15 MR. JIMENEZ: I am the -- I am the manager. 16 MR. COLLINS: Yes, sir. Those companies are 17 limited liability companies, I understand. 18 MR. JIMENEZ: I'm the manager of all three. 19 MR. COLLINS: Okay. And as far as ownership in the 20 ranches, from 173 from the back of your present restaurant 21 going all the way down to the end of the road we're talking 22 about closing, is that all owned and managed by the same 23 people? 24 MR. JIMENEZ: Yes. 25 MR. COLLINS: Okay, thank you. 2-28-11 123 1 MR. JIMENEZ: Under two -- well, let me just -- let 2 me just clarify that. When you say "managed" -- 3 MR. COLLINS: Owned. 4 MR. JIMENEZ: It's owned -- Saint Christopher 5 Properties owns certain -- certain land, and Terra Fortuna 6 owns the real estate, the property where the store sits. 7 MR. COLLINS: Okay. All right, thank you. 8 MR. NEUNHOFFER: I'm Julius Neunhoffer, 2039 Harper 9 Ranch Road. I do work for some people up at Verde Creek that 10 I have to come in and out of that entrance directly across 11 173 from the store. This is a very bad traffic situation 12 area because of the curve north of the store on 173. Now, if 13 you're going to have an increased number of people with your 14 restaurants, and then you're closing the only other access 15 out, all those people will have to hit 173 and come in and 16 out of there. And is this going to be a congested traffic 17 situation? That's why they moved the road entrance across 18 Verde Creek years ago already, was because of that. And 19 there's a traffic turn lane, there's flashing lights and all 20 that. And in the event that you close the road out the back, 21 then you're limited and you only have that one entrance. And 22 even -- even in a fire condition, that's going to be a 23 situation that's addressed as being a little shaky because of 24 only one entrance in and out of the place, so that would be 25 my concern. And we're increasing a traffic hazard situation 2-28-11 124 1 by you closing the road. 2 MR. JIMENEZ: I think 173 and 480 is certainly 3 butter suited for increased traffic than Camp Verde Road 4 itself. As you mentioned, there is -- there is the flashing 5 light there in the intersection of 480 and 173. I think 6 people seeing that flashing light will be a little more 7 cautious as they're driving through that area, as opposed to 8 the intersection of where Camp Verde Road intersects 480 is a 9 dark area. 10 MR. NEUNHOFFER: Well, just the fact that if you 11 have, like, a big group of people come stop at your store, 12 and then they're all trying to leave at the same time, like I 13 say, I dealt with that traffic intersection for years, with 14 coming in and out of there with equipment, and it's very -- 15 under ideal conditions, it's still kind of iffy. And if we 16 get into late hours in the evening or something like that, 17 and -- and you're all in that one direction, that -- that, to 18 me, doesn't seem a safe, long-term deal. And with the road 19 being closed, then you're compounding the situation, all 20 right? 21 (Applause.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I would remind you, again, we're not 23 taking public comments at this time. Specific questions 24 relative to the presentation. I'm going to open it up here 25 in a little bit for a public hearing with regard to this 2-28-11 125 1 entire matter. If you want to come forward, please, ma'am? 2 MS. WILSON: Does it come here? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: It's just as far from there to here 4 as it is from here to there. 5 MS. WILSON: I probably can make my voice project. 6 I just wanted to -- I think this is a -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Your name, please? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The court reporter needs to 9 get your name and everything. 10 MS. WILSON: I'm going to give it, thank you. My 11 name is Victoria Wilson, and I'm from Center Point and 12 Kerrville. I think this is a beautiful, exciting project, 13 and I think it really will be wonderful if you can make it 14 work. But I'm just wondering if, at the time of acquisition 15 of these properties -- it looks like they were purchased in 16 parcels and by different limited partnerships. Were you not 17 aware of the constraints of the property, that it did have a 18 county road running in the middle of it? 19 MR. JIMENEZ: We certainly were aware of the county 20 road. The -- the purchases that were made came out of 21 specific needs that -- that we -- that we had. Certainly, 22 our -- we would have liked to have purchased the -- as far as 23 Saint Christopher Properties, there was about 10 acres there 24 that -- that was purchased within the last year and a half to 25 where, had we been able to, we would have purchased it back 2-28-11 126 1 in 2003. They just weren't for sale. 2 MS. WILSON: Where were those 10 acres? 3 MR. JIMENEZ: Those 10 acres are the -- right as 4 you -- can you highlight that? Right around there, where 5 that -- where the cursor is. And then as far as the property 6 for Terra Fortuna, as that became available, which is along 7 the creek side by the state park, as I said, we owned part of 8 that already. We were -- we were making an effort over the 9 past few years to try to convince that property owner to sell 10 his property, and were finally able to do so. 11 MS. WILSON: And when did this property acquisition 12 start? I mean, what year? 13 MR. JIMENEZ: We -- we initially purchased the 14 property back in August of 2003, and we took over operations 15 of the store in October of 2003. 16 MS. WILSON: And was your purpose -- why did you -- 17 why were they -- I guess -- I don't know if you can answer 18 this, but I'm just curious. There are three different 19 partnerships, and they all own different pieces of the 20 property. I mean, why wouldn't one company purchase -- 21 MR. JIMENEZ: Saint Christopher Properties owns the 22 ranch property, which is a 19 -- 1,900 acres. 23 MS. WILSON: Is that the bulk of the acreage? 24 MR. JIMENEZ: That's the bulk of the acreage. 25 MS. WILSON: Is that contiguous properties? 2-28-11 127 1 MR. JIMENEZ: It's contiguous, but it crosses over 2 -- we're on one side of 173; we crossed over 480. The Terra 3 Fortuna property was initially owned by Camelot Hills Group. 4 When we first purchased the property, we purchased 4 acres, 5 which is right in the corner there of Camp Verde Road, which 6 is when we started the operations of the store. We made a 7 decision back -- back a few months ago that it would be 8 better suited for -- to where Camelot would sell the real 9 estate to Terra Fortuna, and Camelot will strictly focus on 10 the operations of the restaurant -- of the general store 11 itself. 12 MS. WILSON: I see. That's interesting. Now, the 13 1,900 acres, does the road bisect those 1,900 acres? 14 MR. JIMENEZ: Part of it. Just -- just the -- 15 you're talking about the -- the county road? 16 MS. WILSON: Yes, the county road. 17 MR. JIMENEZ: As you see there -- as you see there 18 on the screen, the orange highlight is -- is the part that 19 belongs to Saint Christopher Properties. 20 MS. WILSON: And then what is the outer limit of 21 the property? If you could just point that out, of the Saint 22 Christopher property -- the 1,900 acres. I see where the 23 road is, but I don't see where the property -- 24 MR. JIMENEZ: It goes beyond -- beyond 480. 25 MS. WILSON: To the north? 2-28-11 128 1 MR. JIMENEZ: To the south. 2 MS. WILSON: Oh, to the south, okay. Crossing the 3 river -- or to the river. Well, I -- okay. Let me just -- 4 that's -- I guess that would be for the other property map 5 which I haven't done, and I apologize for that. What are 6 your plans for the property between the two gates if the road 7 is closed? 8 MR. JIMENEZ: To leave the road as-is. 9 MS. WILSON: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. JIMENEZ: Saint Christopher Properties is not a 11 commercial venture. It is for strictly private use. As I 12 mentioned before, we have quite a bit of acreage. We have 13 quite a bit of wildlife. It is not for commercial hunting. 14 You have to use some wildlife management to maintain your 15 herds, but certainly, it is -- there is no business purpose 16 for that. And so the closure of the road is -- is for the 17 reasons I mentioned earlier, and it's not to where we intend 18 to go in there and tear up the road. We intend to leave it 19 as-is. 20 MS. WILSON: When you say for private purposes, -- 21 MR. JIMENEZ: Mm-hmm. 22 MS. WILSON: -- what does -- 23 MR. JIMENEZ: Exactly that. Private purposes. 24 MS. WILSON: I mean, is that -- is this going to be 25 a ranch, or -- 2-28-11 129 1 MR. JIMENEZ: It is a ranch. 2 MS. WILSON: -- or some other -- does someone live 3 on it? 4 MR. JIMENEZ: That's -- I think that's -- suffice 5 to say that it's -- that it is a private ranch, and I think 6 most of the property owners around the area would like to 7 maintain, just as we do, those matters private. 8 MS. WILSON: All right. Thank you very much. I -- 9 I'm just sort of new to exactly meeting you, and I really 10 hope this project comes off, 'cause I think it's fabulous. 11 MR. JIMENEZ: Thank you very much. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Anyone else have a question with 13 regard to the presentation? 14 MR. GONZALES: Yes, sir, I do. Joel Gonzales 15 again. Sir, is there a one owner to all this -- these 16 companies? A certain owner to all these companies? A 17 certain one person? 18 MR. JIMENEZ: No, sir. 19 MR. GONZALES: Or two persons? 20 MR. JIMENEZ: No, there's multiple owners. But I 21 don't think that's -- certainly, two of the -- sorry, trying 22 to keep my facts straight here. I don't want to missquote 23 myself. No, there's three different owners. 24 MR. GONZALES: And the reason I'm asking this is, 25 again, rumors go around. Are these owners from Mexico, sir? 2-28-11 130 1 MR. JIMENEZ: No. 2 MR. GONZALES: No? 3 MR. JIMENEZ: No. In terms of -- the Camelot Hills 4 Group does have Mexican ownership. Terra Fortuna and Saint 5 Christopher does not. 6 MR. GONZALES: And the reason I'm asking, because 7 it would be kind of hard for us to continue giving property 8 to people that live in a foreign country. Mexico is now a 9 foreign country. I need -- I need a visa -- passport, and 10 that was -- 11 MR. JIMENEZ: I understand that, but I think -- 12 MR. GONZALES: -- the reason I'm asking. 13 MR. JIMENEZ: -- the -- certainly, our country is 14 built on people making investments in the United States, just 15 like we have made an investment into the -- into the Camp 16 Verde area. And it's something that's been very well 17 received. I think we've had an excellent relationship 18 with -- with the neighbors. I know we have a different 19 viewpoint on this one particular issue, but be that as it 20 may -- and I stated this when we met back in January, you 21 know, the decision here is not going to have any bearing on 22 whether we continue working with the -- with the historical 23 people or whether we continue promoting the area. That's not 24 our intent at all. You know, we have a business proposal 25 before the Court that we ask for consideration. And beyond 2-28-11 131 1 that, it's something that we've been here for -- since 2003, 2 and we intend to be here for quite a bit longer, and I think 3 we've been good neighbors. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Swayze, did you have a question? 5 MR. SWAYZE: Yes. Francis Swayze, 521 Mockingbird, 6 Kerrville, Texas. Can you say emphatically that there's no 7 plans for a housing development in the 1,900 acres that you 8 own? 9 MR. JIMENEZ: I can say that emphatically, yes. We 10 are -- there are no plans for a commercial development. You 11 know, we -- we were attracted to this area because it's the 12 hill country. You know, I -- we've -- I think we've done 13 nothing but beautify that whole area. We don't -- you know, 14 we're not about exploiting it commercially. We've got that 15 one little corner that we -- it was an existing business when 16 we bought it. We thought it could be improved. We wanted to 17 protect what went in there, and we bought it. And so it's -- 18 there's no hidden motive here about us wanting to open up 19 subdivisions and so forth. It's -- we have expended 20 considerable funds, and just maintained the ranch as it is, 21 making some improvements that are private use in terms of 22 upgrading the -- the existing structures and things along 23 that line, making sure that all the fields are well mowed. 24 So, there's no commercial intent there. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: We're going to move on to the public 2-28-11 132 1 hearing phase in just a moment. My question to you is, do 2 you wish to break for lunch, come back for that, or blow 3 through? 4 AUDIENCE: Blow through. 5 AUDIENCE: Keep going. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 MR. BAILEY: One more question, please. I'm Jay 8 Bailey, resident of the Kerrville area. Thank you for your 9 presentation. 10 MR. JIMENEZ: You're welcome. 11 MR. BAILEY: Would you consider -- would the 12 corporation consider donating a small tract, just a spot of 13 land, to the Kerr County Historical Commission for a memorial 14 to be put there, and with all of the designations of the many 15 historic things that have happened there? Just like 16 "Remember the Alamo" has been so famous, "Remember Camp 17 Verde" has become famous in this area, and we'd appreciate it 18 if you would consider, as part of tit-for-tat, if the county 19 -- if we, the citizens who own that road, would love to see 20 the beautiful things you're doing developed, but we'd also 21 like a spot that's special to designate that area. Would you 22 consider some donation? 23 MR. JIMENEZ: The -- certainly, we have offered 24 to -- if our request is approved, we've offered to purchase 25 the underlying property. We have, over the years, been very 2-28-11 133 1 cooperative as far as providing facilities that are -- 2 certainly, that are owned by us, but are made available to 3 the public. And so in terms of donating land, I would rather 4 to where we make land available for use and retain ownership 5 ourselves, to where -- but -- but I think past experience has 6 shown that we work with the community in trying to provide 7 facilities for -- for whatever the community needs. 8 MR. BAILEY: I would think the lawyers could speak 9 to whether that would be a tax-free donation, if you should 10 do it. Thank you very much. 11 MR. JIMENEZ: Thank you. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: At this time, I will recess the 13 Commissioners Court meeting, and I will convene a public 14 hearing regarding the action to close, vacate, abandon, 15 and/or discontinue all of Camp Verde Road from F.M. 480 to 16 Highway 173 pursuant to the Texas Transportation Code. 17 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 12:25 p.m., and a public hearing was held in 18 open court, as follows:) 19 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I've got a number of public 21 participation forms. In view of that, I would ask that each 22 person who wishes to be heard on that make an effort to be 23 brief. And what I will try and do is keep you appraised of 24 the next one to come up so that we won't have a -- a detailed 25 or a lengthy delay between the one giving public comments and 2-28-11 134 1 the next one to give public comment. But I would ask that 2 you be brief. If, in fact, your comments relate to issues 3 that maybe have been covered previously by one or more 4 previous speakers, that you take that into consideration in 5 making your comments. The first participation form that I 6 received was from Mr. Charles Bierschwale, the second one 7 being from Sharon Walling. Mr. Bierschwale? 8 MR. BIERSCHWALE: Thank you. I -- I have -- this 9 is some personal comments about my idea about this. My dad 10 grew up in Harper in about -- about 1920. He drove a herd of 11 goats over, stayed at Camp Verde at Richard Nowlin's, and 12 then took them on -- by himself, by the way -- over to 13 Bandera. I kind of look favorably on that little area down 14 there. When I drive through there, driving in front of the 15 Camp Verde Store, drive down the lane there, I see some trees 16 and a creek bed, and I don't see any obstacles. I see a 17 narrow road that puts me in touch with the country and things 18 that I like. It's more of a trail, something that -- that, 19 like I said, brings me closer to home and closer to things 20 that I value. And, basically, I think it would be an 21 injustice to close that road to the public. I think that 22 if -- if there's people going down that road causing problems 23 in front of the store, that just tells me that there's people 24 going down that road, and there's other people that are 25 seeing it. And if there's any people going down the road, 2-28-11 135 1 then there is no problem there. So, basically, I'd like to 2 see the road stay open. Thanks. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 4 (Applause.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Walling? The speaker beyond 6 that is Gerald Witt. 7 MS. WALLING: Your Honor, could we possibly have 8 the map back up, and the pointer? Is that possible to put it 9 back up over here and have the pointer so we could show you 10 kind of -- it's kind of confusing as to what areas we're 11 actually going to be confined to when we lose the road. Is 12 that possible? That map that -- the poster, yeah. The 13 poster there. Is that possible? Will the pointer go that 14 far? 15 AUDIENCE: It's hard to see. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you talking about this one over 17 here on the easel? 18 MS. WALLING: Yes, sir. 19 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 20 MS. WALLING: He just told me be careful with this. 21 I -- I'm new at this, so excuse me. Oh. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think they're talking -- are 23 you talking about the one up there, or this one? 24 MS. WALLING: That one. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Put that behind the Judge, 2-28-11 136 1 not behind me. (Laughter.) 2 MS. WALLING: I'll go ahead and start. My name is 3 Sharon Walling, and I live at 2062 Summit Crest. I'm a 4 resident of Kerr County and a native of Texas, born in Goose 5 Creek, Texas. I am in the Kerr County Historical Commission. 6 We will hear many historical reasons to not -- and 7 archeological reasons to not sell our precious and unique 8 Texas and national heritage in exchange for a 25-employee 9 restaurant, and so I will let the better historians address 10 those concerns. I would like to point out that the marketing 11 of the site as a national historic landmark site will mean 12 that we probably will receive a sign on I-10 and pull 13 motorists in, but that is also a very important historical 14 site even if we don't get the national historic landmark. If 15 we lose the road and the easement to shortsightedness, we'll 16 be forced to place 10 to 20 historic markers in this sliver 17 of area that is left by TexDOT. 18 Okay, I'm going to try to do this here. Okay. If 19 I could stop shaking. Sorry. This area right here near the 20 store is -- was owned by TexBOT -- TexDOT, excuse me, but the 21 owners of the store have a patio partially on that. We have 22 this part right here with a little turnaround, and then we 23 have a little sliver right here. That's what we'll be left 24 with. And we have another speaker coming up that's going to 25 talk about how we have 10 markers there already, and we have 2-28-11 137 1 about 20 in the plans. We will have to put most of the 2 markers right there in this little area, and it will look 3 like a marker cemetery, because they will be lined up next to 4 each other. So, that is kind of a disadvantage, 'cause you 5 usually like to spread them out and put them in front of 6 where you want them. The corporations claim that there is a 7 security reason for -- for closing this. The other thing 8 that we want to -- wanted to emphasize is that if you do 9 close one road and you've got a restaurant in there, and say 10 you had a fire, you'll have all those customers trying to get 11 out one direction, so it's actually a security problem for 12 the customers. Seems to be more of a security problem than 13 something that we should worry about a few dead deer or a 14 curb, or -- like we have said, Texans know how to drive on 15 low water bridges. 16 I was a realtor, and I can say that the property 17 value should be determined, if you're going to go ahead with 18 this, according to creek frontage. River frontage, you know, 19 is always important. Huge cypress trees and a low water 20 bridge and, of course, the historical aspect of the property 21 adds a whole lot. So, what we'd actually like is for the 22 public to be able to have an appraiser that maybe Mr. Jimenez 23 could pay for, since this is something they really want, and 24 let us have two opinions, because one appraiser is -- is not 25 enough to make sure that all this works out right. We don't 2-28-11 138 1 want y'all to low-ball the price just to get a restaurant. 2 And we don't know if that's anything, but we know the County 3 does need money, and we feel like this is sort of blackmail, 4 and we hope that you would go ahead and refuse to close the 5 road and call his bluff. I know Texans are good at calling 6 bluffs, so hopefully you can just -- I think since they 7 planned it for two years and they have beautiful drawings, 8 and they have had such success so far with the tiny little 9 restaurant, that they'll go ahead and go forward with it no 10 matter whether they get the road or not. And then we'll all 11 be happy. (Applause.) 12 The corporations, Grupo from Tampico, Mexico, and 13 the others, Camelot and Saint Christopher, all of these gross 14 over 900 million a year, and so we do think that they could 15 afford to pay top dollar, or they could just go ahead and -- 16 and do some safety features like lighting, or could put a 17 line down the middle of the road, if that seems to be the big 18 problem. I'll come and paint it for you if you want that. 19 So, what we would request, if you decide to go forward with 20 this, is a town hall meeting so that we can have our opinions 21 heard, and also a second appraisal. If you decide to choose 22 an appraiser of your liking, we would like an appraiser of 23 our liking also. And I would like to say that I have the 24 Camp Verde ad here, and it says, "History is just the 25 beginning." Let's hope that history is not the end. Let's 2-28-11 139 1 hope that history is more than just a marketing tool for 2 them, and they really will respect the historical commission 3 and the archeological group here that is so passionate about 4 saving this. We also have Clarabelle Snodgrass here, and 5 she's going to be awarded, of course, I guess as we all know, 6 the governor's award, so that's going to be a lot of 7 publicity for Kerr County when she gets to Austin to accept 8 her award. She's saved 66 markers, and she's 97 years old. 9 (Applause.) All right. So, I think my three minutes are 10 probably up, but thank you very much for listening. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Witt? The 12 next speaker will be Frank Gonzales. 13 MR. WITT: Thank you, gentlemen. My name is Gerald 14 Witt; I live 2 miles east of the Camp Verde store. I travel 15 the Camp Verde Road six days a week to get my mail. I'm here 16 today as a Camp Verde resident, landowner, and taxpayer of 17 Kerr County. Also, I'm here because I want to see our local 18 history preserved. I wrote "The History of Eastern Kerr 19 County" in 1986. I teach a course on Camp Verde history, and 20 we usually have the classes in the Camp Verde Store. My 21 great-grandparents are buried in the Camp Verde cemetery. My 22 mother and father first met in the Camp Verde Store. As you 23 can see, my family tree has very deep roots in Camp Verde, 24 Texas. 25 AUDIENCE: Amen. 2-28-11 140 1 MR. WITT: On January 12, 2011, I attended a 2 meeting at the Camp Verde Store that was talked about here. 3 Commissioner Overby was in attendance, as well as members of 4 the Historical Commission, and Mr. Felipe Jiminez, who 5 represented Camelot Hills and Saint Christopher, both LLC's. 6 Mr. Jimenez presented a very polished presentation about the 7 8,000 square foot restaurant his corporation plans to build. 8 It was kind of a miniature of what we've seen here today. I 9 am -- I am completely in favor of this restaurant. It would 10 be a wonderful addition to our community. The second part of 11 his presentation is about the need to close the Camp Verde 12 Road. His reasons for closing the road were safety and 13 security, as he presented on his graphs here today. He 14 mentioned such things as the road is dark at night, the road 15 is narrow and crooked and there is a low water crossing, and 16 there is poaching going on. 17 As far as I know, there has never been an accident 18 on this road. No one has ever driven into the creek. And I 19 really don't know what to say about poaching. It's been 20 going on since day one, and I don't see any end in sight. I 21 was an airline pilot for 32 years; I know safety and security 22 are important and legitimate concerns. I lived with these 23 concerns on every flight. No one can be against safety and 24 security. However, I know -- also know how safety and 25 security can be used to provide cover when you're not ready 2-28-11 141 1 to go public about a real reason. Mr. Jimenez never 2 mentioned -- never convinced me there was a connection 3 between the closing of the road and the success of the 4 restaurant. And if there is one sentence I want to 5 emphasize, that is it. 6 AUDIENCE: Amen. 7 MR. WITT: During this meeting on January the 12th 8 to ask Mr. Jimenez how much he planned to pay for the -- pay 9 the County for this road, he did not give me an answer. 10 Today we have the answer; they are ready to pay the appraised 11 price. As a taxpayer, I did not -- do not expect you to give 12 anything away that the County owns. Mr. Jimenez said they 13 wanted to close three-quarters of a mile of this road. How 14 much does three-quarters of a mile of road cost? I don't 15 know, but it could easily be -- be easy for you to determine. 16 Find the cost of the road base and paving, calculate the cost 17 of 1.5 miles of right-of-way fence, add the appraised value 18 of the land and the right-of-way, toss in one low water 19 bridge, and you have the total cost. This cost is the amount 20 Kerr County should charge. I assure you that Camelot Hills 21 and Saint Christopher Corporations will use this road as 22 their own private road. It's no longer speculation; 23 Mr. Jimenez just affirmed that here this morning. This road 24 will not be removed, and the right-of-way will not be 25 returned to pastureland. I think the Court has two options. 2-28-11 142 1 Sell the road to the Camp Verde corporation; the price should 2 be the total cost figured in the previous paragraph. This 3 solution would be easy and quick, with a one-time payment to 4 the coffers of Kerr County. I think a far better solution is 5 to support the Hill Country Archeological Society's proposal. 6 Many will benefit, not just the county. Let's preserve 7 ancient history. Let's preserve our military history. Let's 8 preserve Texas history. Let's preserve local history. Let's 9 have those big brown signs on Interstate 10 pointing tourists 10 our way. Let's welcome the National Park Service and the 11 economic impact it will have on the area. Let's help 12 Kerrville and Center Point with this new revenue. Let's 13 increase the bottom line for the Camp Verde Store and 14 restaurant. Let's keep the road open. Thank you. 15 (Applause.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Frank Gonzales. The next speaker 17 will be Catherine Ramsay Roberts. 18 MR. GONZALES: My name is Frank Gonzales. I thank 19 you, the Commissioners, for this time. And, ladies and 20 gentlemen, I am a historian like Mr. Witt. I have read his 21 book, and though I'm not a resident of this area, I am a 22 native Texan. And as a native Texan, my main concern is the 23 preservation of Texas history and its landmarks, as many in 24 this room are. Too many landmarks are going the way of 25 Walmart parking lots and everything else in this country. 2-28-11 143 1 This is not what I want to see happen in this area. However, 2 I will not stand here and say that I am not associated with 3 -- with the companies in question here. I am an employee. 4 But as I've stated before, I am their historian as well, and 5 they have consulted me in matters of -- of this area. And so 6 my main concern is not the political ramifications of a road 7 closure; it's the preservation of the area, of the different 8 places in the area, from the fort to the old Nowlin house to 9 the old Camp Verde school, everything that was in the Ranger 10 station, everything that was in that area. I do not want to 11 see it developed into housing or anything like that, and I 12 think the -- that Mr. Jimenez and the companies have made it 13 quite clear, that is not the intention here. I, for one, 14 would speak greatly against that. But I also see that they 15 wish to preserve this and keep it pristine, and that is, I 16 think, of a main concern. 17 I know there's a lot of people here that have a lot 18 of -- a lot of attachment to that road, both for family 19 reasons, for -- for a lot of reasons in regards to scenery. 20 I've been down that road many times, and I can perfectly 21 agree. It's a perfect -- it's everything that Texas is. 22 But, again, I must say that the preservation of that area is 23 my main concern, and as it is for Camelot Hills and -- and 24 Saint Christopher. And so, therefore, I am simply stating 25 that we keep an open mind in this. The companies have 2-28-11 144 1 been -- have said that they're willing to help in the 2 historic registry. Those who have done any research in 3 regards to getting in the historic landmark registry know 4 that whether they object or do not object, it still can be 5 done. The registry still can make it part of National Park 6 Service. The signs can still be placed up where they need to 7 be. And as the company has stated, they are more than 8 willing to help in this thing. A lot of things have to do 9 with federal funding. If this is -- if this is going on -- 10 on a public venture with the National Park Service, this has 11 a lot to do with federal funding, and y'all know right now 12 that the government is not in tune with anything like that 13 right now. So, if there's an opportunity where the company 14 can help in this, I will reiterate Mr. Jimenez' remark that 15 we are more than willing and open-minded to do that. Like I 16 said, I'm not going to get into the road closure or political 17 ramifications. My main concern here is the preservation of 18 that area, and this is what we also are looking into saving. 19 Thank you very much. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Catherine Ramsay 21 Roberts. The next speaker will be Diane McMahon. 22 MS. COLLINS: She had to leave. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Roberts left? 24 MS. COLLINS: No, Diane had to leave. I'm sorry. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 2-28-11 145 1 MS. ROBERTS: The "Ramsay" is my maiden name, from 2 good old Kerr County, Texas. I was born in 1939 -- you know, 3 when you get my age, you don't worry about your birthdays any 4 more; you wouldn't have told that 10 years ago -- out on 5 Cypress Creek Road. When I got called about this issue, all 6 I could remember is the drives on that old Camp Verde Road in 7 my mom and dad's 1936 Ford, with me up in the turtle. Okay. 8 One of the things I came to do today is I came to talk about 9 the average Texan. You know, I think this may be -- despite 10 the saying that it's not, this may be a David and Goliath 11 issue. When they call me -- now, Mr. Jimenez has talked a 12 little bit about these companies. I don't find that the Camp 13 Verde Store is owned by Fortuna in the Kerr County tax thing. 14 Well, who owns it? You know. But what I was concerned about 15 when I got into this is Camelot, Saint Christopher, there's 16 also a limited company on the Camp Verde Store that 17 Mr. Jimenez, yes, is the -- they call him the officer in the 18 Wiki Corporations, and they list a Mr. Lewis M. Linn out of 19 California -- out of Houston as a very busy accountant. 20 When you really get into all of those issues, what 21 you find is a total now, since Fortuna's added, 'cause I 22 didn't find it, there are about 29 companies that Mr. Jimenez 23 is the representative of, and then Mr. Linn is the 24 accountant. Some of the -- what I really find is that we're 25 just talking luxury, okay? One of the companies is Miamperi 2-28-11 146 1 Real Estate out of San Antonio, and one of the San Antonio 2 newspapers had an article asking for the -- where they listed 3 the luxury properties, and up comes The Dominion, okay? Now, 4 that caught my attention, because Mr. Jimenez is on the board 5 of directors of Grupo, which is a large Coca Cola bottling 6 company, probably the 10th largest in the United States, 7 that's located out of Tampico, Mexico. They have a -- an 8 income of over 900 million in 2002. Okay. Cynthia Grossman 9 is the chairman of that board. 10 We've -- everybody else has danced around it here, 11 and what I'm beginning -- I want to say, 'cause I think he 12 has his lawyer with him, is that the speculation -- I think 13 another gentleman brought this up, okay, is that what the 14 deal is, is they want to put in a Dominion-like development 15 in the Camp Verde area. Okay? I can't prove -- I don't know 16 if that's true. I would think that people in Kerr County 17 would want to know that, from a -- from a whole perspective. 18 One is the pull on the aquifer. I can see the straw -- I can 19 hear the straw coming out of the water out of there, because 20 I think it's interesting that Mr. Letz excused himself, 21 because when you have those huge homes like that, the 22 landscaping water is an issue, and the golfing and everything 23 else. But let's talk about the importance of that road. 24 I -- I did not -- I don't have a list of why I think that 25 road is historical, 'cause I thought that I would be stepping 2-28-11 147 1 over into the historical society. But one of the things I 2 want to talk about is the environment. 3 The hill country is almost spiritual. I mean, 4 you -- you read the descriptions; you see it's the words like 5 serenity, idyllic vistas, sparkling water, blankets of 6 wildflowers. That doesn't happen after development. And 7 that's not -- you're not going to have access to that if you 8 close off that road. I was astounded at that low water 9 crossing being on there, 'cause I imagine some of y'all know 10 the Bode family from Kerrville. Elroy Bode, who grew up and 11 was raised here, writes sometimes, and he wrote one of the 12 most poignant articles in Southern Living one time about 13 living here and going over low water crossings and hearing 14 the frogs and smelling the smells. There's nothing like it, 15 like the hill country. I have -- I should have gotten up and 16 asked this question, too, about the taxes that are going to 17 come off of this. Even if they don't develop it, if they 18 expand that out and they have wildlife management, and they 19 even have one cow on it -- I really wish I could put a cow in 20 Houston on my house -- in my back yard, because they're going 21 to have great tax reductions. And I hope that that's given 22 consideration, because if you're wildlife management or 23 you're raising cattle, you do get a break. And I don't have 24 any problems with that; I just want that to be considered 25 into the deal. 2-28-11 148 1 Also, I really felt like, after listening to this 2 presentation, that I -- I, as a Texan, was being asked to 3 give up a very historical place for a parking lot for a 4 restaurant. I think that it's wonderful that we have 5 entrepreneurs like Mr. Jimenez and we give people jobs and 6 all. My Ph.D.'s in psychology and mental health, and if you 7 want to give people mental health, give them a job. So, I 8 have no problem with development or entrepreneurship or 9 capitalism. I'm for it. What I'm concerned about is, I do 10 have a concern about foreign-based companies. I want to know 11 who owns all these companies. I want to know if these 12 companies are all tied together. If -- if they are, we're 13 being asked to give up our decisions on historical things 14 from a foreign-based company. I wouldn't dream of going into 15 -- into a foreign country and asking them to let me make 16 decisions on their historical places. I wouldn't even dream 17 about that. That place belongs to people in Texas, okay? 18 Because historical places do that. I don't live in Kerrville 19 any more, but I'm a Texan, okay? And I think that area 20 belongs to Texas, okay? And it's really noble to vote to 21 save the environment and to save historical places. I hope 22 y'all give really good consideration when you make that vote, 23 and I hope that it's the right vote for everybody. Thank you 24 very much. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 2-28-11 149 1 (Applause.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Marylee Stewart? Marylee Stewart? 3 The following speaker will be Alison Ramos. 4 MS. STEWART: I am Marylee Jobes Stewart, and those 5 of y'all who knew my brother, don't hold it against me. 6 (Laughter.) I just wanted to bring up -- I was born here. 7 My mother was born here. We go back, so we care about these 8 things. But I wanted to -- something that hasn't come out 9 clearly to me so far today is that this is to be a district, 10 and Mr. Jimenez mentioned that the road wasn't virtually 11 deserving of a marker, and it is. It's underneath the 12 pavement. Maybe not every square inch of it, but a lot of it 13 is the old Comanche Trace, and that needed to be brought out. 14 I have a list of -- of eight existing historic markers, and I 15 think y'all already have that list. One is on the national 16 registry, and that's Old Camp Verde. And then you go on to 17 the site of Camp Verde and the barracks and the general 18 store, and Camp Verde Confederate States of America. Then 19 you get to the Center Point Cemetery, Bandera Pass, and the 20 Penateka Comanche. 21 When you get to the Comanche, I'd like for you to 22 remember, it was the 2nd Cav. that came in with the camels, 23 and the other forces in the area that really stopped the 24 Indians in this part of Texas. So, that's a big deal. Also, 25 the Comanche, the Apache, and the Kickapoos are all mentioned 2-28-11 150 1 on these markers. And the Old Spanish Trail comes up from 2 the Bandera Pass into Kerrville, stops in front of the bank 3 in town, and goes on to Bill Rector's place, and that's part 4 of that same area. You get down to the proposed markers, 5 you've got the Apache Ranchero, you've got the Puerto de la 6 Bandera, if I pronounced it correctly, and that's all the 7 Spanish army. The -- the old Comanche Trace itself, the 8 Prison Canyon, P.O.W. camp, Confederate States of America 9 again. You've got the 2nd Cavalry, which consisted of -- 10 Robert E. Lee was with the army; came in second in command, 11 and this was his last command for the U.S. Army, was with the 12 2nd Cav. 13 I've got a cousin who wrote a paper on Camp Verde a 14 number of years ago, and he mentioned that Lee had a lot of 15 idiosyncrasies. He always traveled with a couple of 16 chickens, because he wanted fresh eggs for breakfast. Plus 17 he had a pet; it was a rattlesnake, and he kept it in a box 18 in his tent. He fed it frogs. When he saw a mouse in his 19 tent, he'd let it out. He'd eat the mouse, and he'd put it 20 back in its box. Now, nobody around here knows that, I'll 21 bet. So, you go on with Lee, John Bell Hood, other good 22 confederates that came out of the 2nd Cav. You've got the 23 frontier regiment, Texas Rangers frontier battalion, Texas 24 Rangers -- and I'm not going to name all of the Ranger names. 25 The 4th Cav. will have a marker, and that's where your 2-28-11 151 1 Kickapoos come in. Camp Davant, and then John Coffee Hays, 2 Texas Ranger, and Battle of Bandera Pass. And those are our 3 markers that we are trying to get in that area. Thank you 4 very much. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. 6 (Applause.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Alison Ramos? Following Ms. Ramos, 8 Tink Nathan. 9 MS. RAMOS: Well, I -- originally, my little brief 10 address was, "Good morning, gentlemen," but it ain't morning 11 any more. So, it's good afternoon, gentlemen. I'm Alison 12 Ramos, and my husband and I live in Ingram. He's a World War 13 II veteran and somewhat disabled, so not able to be here with 14 me. But I have to apologize; sorry about the British accent. 15 I know it can be off-putting at times, but even after living 16 in Texas for nearly 50 years, it just don't go away, so 17 please bear with me. For the record, I'm not a member of 18 either the historical commission or the archeological 19 society, though I have attended a few of the meetings. What 20 I have to say comes directly with passion from my heart. 21 Some weeks ago, when I read about the future of what I'll 22 call "our road," I called Mr. Oehler and Mr. Baldwin to voice 23 my concerns. And it's good to put faces to voices, 24 gentlemen. Thank you. As Mr. Oehler may remember from our 25 talk, I have, as they say, an appetite for history, and that 2-28-11 152 1 is what has triggered my call to you today. 2 I grew up in England. Yeah, sure, all too 3 conscious of its heritage. And that wasn't hard for a child, 4 when the oldest part of her home went back 600 years. And 5 that house is still standing and still lived in. So, I must 6 tell you gentlemen that I am sad right now, when it seems we 7 of Kerr County may lose a chance to show how proud we are of 8 its heritage. J.P. Bryan, the curator of an exhibition, 9 "Texas! Making History Since 1519," has said the state we 10 live in has a fabulous history, and our little road along the 11 Verde Creek is part of that fabulous history. As you have 12 heard, this right-of-way has been traveled for thousands of 13 years. Leave it open to the public now, well mapped, with 14 all necessary historical markers, and you are looking at a 15 drawing card for school expeditions, historians, tourists, 16 you name them, many more than came today. The Camp Verde 17 Store would profit, and deserve to under these circumstances. 18 But for the owners to gain control of this quiet winding lane 19 that is a hill country treasure and then close it down to all 20 public access would be to deny the importance of its history. 21 So, gentlemen, I beg you to show your pride in Texas past. 22 Don't sell our piece of the Comanche Trace. 23 (Applause.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Tink Nathan, followed by Mary J. 25 Matthews. 2-28-11 153 1 MR. NATHAN: Judge Tinley, Commissioners, fellow 2 Texans, I'm Tink Nathan. I live on Witt Road, which was 3 originally part of Camp Verde before the post office went 4 berserk. This is the worst idea I've heard of in years, 5 okay? It is stupid. Advanced civilizations, they build 6 roads; they don't close roads. There is no gain to it. 7 There is nothing to be gained. Tradition will be lost, okay? 8 And it's going to make Kerr County look pretty bad. The -- I 9 heard about the restaurant when I moved here in 2005. I'm a 10 seventh generation Texan. My people have fought in almost 11 every war of the Texans, okay? There is no connection 12 between this restaurant and closing the road. It's for a 13 selfish gain. It's for personal wealth, okay? That is the 14 only thing going. And as far as economic development, it's 15 true, the restaurant's a great idea. I eat there five days a 16 week, okay? I'm their best customer. I know Felipe here, 17 okay? He even knows -- he knows all about my dogs. I'm 18 trying to teach my dogs to cook so I don't have to go up 19 there, but my dogs only give me water and dog food, you know. 20 But I'm not against the store. The people are great. They 21 are great community neighbors. No one has ever said a bad 22 word against -- against them as a community resident and 23 neighbor and friend, and a business, everything like that. 24 But there's no reason on earth to close the road. Thank you. 25 (Applause.) 2-28-11 154 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Mary J. Matthews, followed by Julie 2 Leonard. 3 MS. MATTHEWS: My concerns have been addressed by 4 Gerald Witt and Sharon Walling, thank you. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Julie Leonard, followed by Francelle 6 Collins. 7 MS. LEONARD: Hello, I'm Julie Leonard from Center 8 Point, and I'm the chairperson of the Kerr County Historical 9 Commission. I thank you for letting me address you this 10 morning. Excuse my voice. I'm representing the Historical 11 Commission's opposition to the vacating, abandoning, and 12 discontinuation of a portion of Camp Verde Road East from 13 Highway 173 to Farm Road 480. The mission statement of the 14 Historical Commission is to protect and preserve the state's 15 historic and prehistoric resources for the use, education, 16 enjoyment, and economic benefit of present and future 17 generations. We are acutely aware of our relationship with 18 county government. We take seriously our commitment to Kerr 19 County citizens for preserving our history and heritage. 20 Kerr County historical members spent over 5,000 hours 21 volunteering service to Kerr County last year. It is in the 22 interest of Kerr County citizens that we feel compelled to 23 take a stand against the closing of this special road in the 24 most historic area of the county. 25 The corporations bought this Camp Verde property 2-28-11 155 1 with the full knowledge of the road's status as county 2 property. The road's eloquence and history speaks for itself 3 as a valuable county asset. We are quickly losing these low 4 water crossings that define the hill country. While we are 5 enthusiastic about the interest and investment these 6 corporations have made in the Camp Verde area, we are opposed 7 to the idea that they are entitled to closing this road to 8 the public -- to the public forever. Their argument of 9 safety and security is unconvincing. We congratulate the 10 Kerr County Archeological Association in their pursuit to 11 make the Camp Verde area a National Landmark District. We 12 hope their proposal is convincing to the Commissioners. 13 There are dollars in history and heritage tourism. Selling 14 the road is a short-term solution to Kerr County's budget 15 problems. Heritage tourism is a long-term solution. Please 16 listen to the voices of Kerr County citizens, and not to the 17 promises of big business. Thank you. 18 (Applause.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Francelle Collins, followed by 20 Marsha Burney. 21 MS. COLLINS: Thank you. My name is Francelle 22 Robison Collins, and I live in Camp Verde. I am the vice 23 president of the Kerr County Historical Commission. The 24 ranch that I live on was bought in 1943 by my family, and I 25 have gone down that historic road millions of times. What I 2-28-11 156 1 want to talk about today, I also was in the meeting with 2 Mr. -- Felipe, and one of his concerns that he brought up was 3 security, security of poaching and trash being thrown out. I 4 don't think there's an area in Kerr County or Kerrville where 5 poaching or trash is not thrown out. I don't think there's 6 poaching that doesn't go on in every country in this world. 7 What I do need to talk to you about today is a very serious 8 issue that has rarely been brought up today, and that is 9 about the water issue. There is a very big water shortage in 10 Kerr County, and especially in Camp Verde. 11 If you will go down 173, you will see a very big 12 lake that has been built by this corporation. It is probably 13 20-something acres. When that lake was put in, every 14 adjoining property owner's small ponds went dry, and they are 15 dry today. However, that lake keeps its level constant at 16 all times. If you go behind Camp Verde Store on 173, you 17 will see hundreds of trees that have been planted, and you 18 know how much water those small trees can take. There is 19 also a greenhouse that has been put there with lots of trees 20 in it that are also taking lots of water. If you go down the 21 historic road, you will see two lines that have been put down 22 to Verde Creek. Those lines are coming onto Camelot and 23 Saint Christopher's property. Verde Creek is now going down 24 significantly. If there is more development in this area, 25 which I'm sure is going to happen, you must consider what 2-28-11 157 1 will happen to the water for our livestock and our families. 2 Thank you very much, and do the right thing. 3 (Applause.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Marsha Burney, followed 5 by Deborah Gaudier. 6 MS. BURNEY: I thank you all for the time to speak 7 to you. My name is Marsha Burney. That's spelled 8 B-u-r-n-e-y. I live at 221 Burney Road in Center Point. The 9 Burney people, my husband's family, have been in this area 10 since before Kerr County existed as a county. W.D.C. Burney 11 served as the first sheriff of Kerr County, and his brothers 12 each served as county judge. The Burney family has continued 13 this process of public service. My husband's grandfather, 14 Clinton Burney, was a commissioner for this county at the 15 time when the prime objective of a commissioner was road 16 maintenance, and I find that rather ironic, that I'm speaking 17 to you today about road maintenance. My mother-in-law is 18 Betty Burney; she spent over 16 years as justice of the peace 19 in Precinct 2 of this county. And my husband Sammy 20 volunteers; he doesn't get paid for his service. He's spent 21 over 30 years as a volunteer fireman, and over 18 years -- 17 22 or 18 as a volunteer First Responder in the eastern part of 23 this county. 24 So, who am I? I was fortunate enough to marry into 25 this family about 18 years ago. My most recent claim to fame 2-28-11 158 1 is that I was a business owner and successfully ran a 2 business on Earl Garrett Street for 10 years. During that 3 time, I spent most of those years as a member of the 4 Kerrville Downtown Business Association. I was an officer of 5 that organization. I also served on the Kerrville Main 6 Street Advisory Board for several years. Two of those years, 7 I was the chairman of that board. So, I tend to think as a 8 business person, and that's where I come from. Previous, 9 though -- previous to this marriage, I was married before, 10 and I had the honor and the privilege of living near Camp 11 Verde. Most of you don't know that, but I spent 12 years 12 living six and a half miles from the Camp Verde Store, and we 13 traveled that six and a half miles to get our mail. At that 14 time, from 1975 to 1987, the store was a very quaint, quaint 15 general store and post office. You couldn't get much food 16 there. You could get some food; Cokes, a bag of chips, and 17 if you went at the right time of day, you were lucky enough 18 to get Granny Edwards' homemade fried pies. That was the 19 day. 20 Since that time, I don't live there any longer. I 21 do visit on occasion. The present Camp Verde Store is a 22 wonder to me, because I lived in that area when it was not 23 what it is today. It's a very successful business. I 24 understand business and how it works, and I applaud the 25 corporations that have done what they have done and infused 2-28-11 159 1 the money that they have infused into Camp Verde. But I also 2 understand business, and I understand that this restaurant 3 will probably be built whether the road becomes closed or 4 not. I understand how business must project their future 5 earnings, and the idea of how much money they're putting in 6 and how much money they're going to take out of the area. I 7 also understand how it's a business person's responsibility 8 to take care of their customers, as I did for 10 years, and 9 you must think about where those customers are going to park 10 and their safety in that parking situation. 11 But I also want you to think about one of our 12 premier restaurant situations in Kerrville. When Hagi 13 decided that he needed a bigger restaurant, and to improve on 14 his business of a many-year success in the restaurant 15 business, and he decided to build -- rebuild in his present 16 location, he took into account the fact that he had to 17 provide parking for his customers to come in. So, when his 18 architects and his designers drew up the plans for his new 19 expanded restaurant, they also made a place on the property 20 that he and his partners owned for adequate parking for those 21 customers to park. That was part of his responsibility as a 22 business owner. He didn't ask the City of Kerrville to close 23 Water Street because he needed more parking than what his 24 little land that he owned was going to provide. And I think 25 that's what's happening in this case, that this restaurant 2-28-11 160 1 wants to expand; they want a bigger draw, they want bigger 2 facilities. It's their responsibility to provide adequate 3 and safe parking for the customers. I would recommend that 4 there be signs posted along that road, "No parking allowed" 5 along the shoulders, and that this corporation and its sister 6 corporations provide adequate parking, because they certainly 7 have 1,900 acres on which to build it. Thank you. 8 (Applause.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Before we continue, I 10 apologize. My reporter needs a little rest here. We're 11 going to -- and her -- her bale there is about to get full; 12 she's having a hard time keeping it tamped down. So, we're 13 going to take about 10 minutes. Just mill around, be at 14 ease, whatever. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mill around? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, mill around. 17 (Recess taken from 1:12 p.m. to 1:25 p.m.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. If everybody will 19 be seated, let's come back to order. We were -- 20 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Commissioner Oehler's not 21 here. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: -- in the midst of a public hearing. 23 Anyone know where Commissioner Oehler is? He'll be along in 24 a minute. The next speaker was Deborah Gaudier. I hope I 25 pronounced that correctly. 2-28-11 161 1 MS. GAUDIER: It's okay. It's Deborah Gaudier. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Gaudier, okay. 3 MS. GAUDIER: I'm at 1100 Bushwhack, and I'm in the 4 Upper Turtle Creek community. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. And the speaker 6 following will be Dorothy Grayson Kretzer. 7 MS. GAUDIER: Okay. In the interest of whole full 8 disclosure, I am a brand new member of the historic 9 preservation commission here in the county, but I'm really 10 speaking as an individual. And I threw out what I was going 11 to say. You've been hearing from lifelong residents of the 12 county. I'm a newcomer; I've lived here less than a year. 13 Even a newcomer knows about and appreciates the history of 14 Camp Verde. It may be the most historic area in the county. 15 I like to take visitors; we go down to Camp Verde and we 16 drive that road, which is so pretty. It's just -- just a 17 delight to drive it. But we go on down to Bandera, Medina, 18 come back up Highway 16, so they get the full hill country 19 experience. I really think it's premature to close the road. 20 We don't know what the traffic impact is going to really be 21 if you just leave it open. I'm going to ask you now to 22 please vote no concerning that. Thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 24 (Applause.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Dorothy Kretzer, followed by 2-28-11 162 1 Joel Gonzales. 2 MS. KRETZER: Good afternoon, yes. My name is 3 Dorothy Kretzer. I live at 129 Royal Oaks Road in Kerrville. 4 And my thoughts today, which maybe I have been remiss in some 5 respects, not following this, but could you please tell me, 6 under Texas Transportation Code, Section 251.007, what class 7 is the road in question? 8 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: What? 9 MS. KRETZER: What class -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: What class road is it? 11 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That would be a question for 12 the County Attorney and/or our Road and Bridge Administrator, 13 neither of whom seem to be available right now. That would 14 be their answer. 15 MS. KRETZER: Okay. Then my other concern -- and I 16 guess maybe I missed something when Mr. Letz left, but did he 17 recuse himself from voting on this? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: He recused himself from anything -- 19 any participation. 20 MS. KRETZER: Good. Because -- well, that's good. 21 Okay. So, do you want me to wait, and go ahead and let 22 someone else speak until the attorney gets back? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that would be up to you, 24 ma'am. 25 MS. KRETZER: I will do that. 2-28-11 163 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Mr. Gonzales? 2 MR. GONZALES: Joel Gonzales, 361 Center Point, 3 Texas -- I mean Stoneleigh Road. Again, y'all -- you guys 4 know where I come from, what I've done. I am also the 5 chairman of the Lions Park there in Center Point. I am part 6 of the Center Point area historical society. I sit on the 7 board as a fundraiser guy. I am also on the bridge committee 8 to our Center Point area, and I represent lots of people that 9 aren't dressed up in suits or own a lot of property, but we 10 do go down to Camp Verde a lot. I send lots of people -- as 11 I was talking to -- mentioned to this gentleman, lots of 12 people that go to the park in summertime, I tell them to go 13 take that little drive. I say, "Take that little drive. 14 don't go down past the main highway, because you'll miss a 15 lot." I come from Tahoka, where we don't have trees, we 16 don't have creeks, we don't have nothing. (Laughter.) It's 17 a little Indian town that's probably nothing now. It's as 18 flat as -- if you turn this thing over, it's flat. It is. 19 We came down here after the '78 flood. My parents moved down 20 here, and I've been here ever since. 21 I've joined the military, gone back and forth, but 22 the Texas hill country -- I've traveled all over the United 23 States, gone all across the seas. There's beautiful country. 24 God made his whole world beautiful, but here, the Texas hill 25 country is by far the prettiest. If we was to take our 2-28-11 164 1 winters, our winters probably average, total days and nights, 2 maybe two weeks. People that come here, they come here for 3 enjoyment. When they move here, they move here because of 4 our scenery. These big corporations, whatever, they want to 5 close this road down. They want to hog -- they want to be 6 greedy, point-blank. They are greedy. They keep on 7 mentioning how much they want to preserve historical -- our 8 historical society, or historical area there. But how can 9 they preserve it to themselves? Or to let people -- say, 10 hey, this road, that right here, this was the P.O.W. -- 11 whatever it is. This is what it was, and this is why we're 12 going to maintain it, and help the county, you know, keep it 13 -- keep it open. That's what I hear from them. 14 But on the other hand, I hear, hey, I want it 15 closed for my purpose, so that way I can bring people from 16 over there, wherever, and say, look, we beat these people. 17 We took their road. Plain and simple. We took their road. 18 That's what's money does, you know. And it is a David and 19 Goliath thing, and it just hurts me that if the Commissioners 20 will vote to close this road for a measly 25 people to get 21 jobs, or because we want a big restaurant, that restaurant 22 can go on there and parking lot can be -- can be on there 23 with no problem at all. Not a problem at all. I'm a 24 builder. I'm a construction guy. I can do all that stuff. 25 I can tell you where that parking lot would be a whole lot 2-28-11 165 1 better. And, yes, you are going to create accidents by 2 closing down that road, everybody trying to get out of that 3 one little road, access road. 4 I'm asking the Court right now to please keep our 5 road. I mean, I'm asking the Court, please keep our road. 6 It's a historical place, a place where many people were 7 raised, a place where many people come to, and I send them 8 there. Where am I going to send them when they say, hey, 9 what's another historical place? Where am I going to send 10 them? "Go to Camp Verde Store; you can see 500 feet of that 11 old historic road. You can stand out there and take 12 pictures." Rather than actually drive down there, park on 13 the side of the area, take pictures at the low water 14 crossing, like many people have done. You call preserving 15 taking something away? No, that's not preserving. That's 16 just being selfish. So, please let us have our road. Thank 17 you. 18 (Applause.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Priscilla Wright, 20 followed by Victoria Mosty Wilson. 21 MS. WILSON: I don't need to use my time, thank 22 you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Priscilla Wright? Is she here? 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Dan Simpson? 2-28-11 166 1 MR. SIMPSON: Good afternoon, gentlemen. My name 2 is Dan Simpson. I'm a resident of Kerr County since 1976. 3 I'm a U.S. military veteran, disabled vet. I'm also Native 4 American. We've talked about this road being used for 5 commercial purposes. The thing that no one's talked about, 6 we have military history; we also have Native American 7 history. Most of our Native American trails are no longer 8 accessible because they're on private property. There is one 9 section that we still can travel. Over the years, I've 10 talked the last 30 years about Native American history. One 11 of the things I've learned from my grandfather and my 12 grandmother was do not sell or give away your property, 13 'cause you'll never get it back. If you don't believe that, 14 ask the Cherokee. That's where we are right now. We went 15 from a beautiful land to Oklahoma. I'm not going to say 16 anything bad about Oklahoma, but I'm glad I'm not there. 17 (Laughter.) Mr. Tinley -- or Judge Tinley, you've known me 18 for years, and so have you, Buster. Mr. Overby, so have you. 19 I haven't had the opportunity to meet Bruce yet that I can 20 remember. But the thing is, I very seldom get up in public 21 and speak because I do not like politics. I do not get 22 involved, but this is one time that I have to. I am not a 23 member of any historical society. I am not against them, 24 because they do preserve what we have left. And, gentlemen, 25 we have very little left. I'm asking you very closely -- or 2-28-11 167 1 very -- very personally, vote no on closing this road. Thank 2 you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Simpson. 4 (Applause.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: That is all the public participation 6 forms that I have. 7 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: One more. 8 MR. WRIGHT: Is it still open? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 10 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. Basically, I would like -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Your name again? I'm sorry. 12 MR. WRIGHT: Sorry. Brian Wright, Center Point. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: There you go. 14 MR. WRIGHT: I wanted to go along with Mr. Witt and 15 say that we should certainly consider the cost of building a 16 new road on that property. Not only that, but we should 17 consider the real property value. I don't know if anybody 18 has actually looked at the real property, but if it -- today 19 it was talked about three-quarters of a mile being closed, 20 and it's about 5.45 acres. If you did the whole mile, it's 21 going to be about 7.25 acres. So, I think that this should 22 be considered in -- Ms. Walling talked about looking at it as 23 far as creek property with live water on it. I think that 24 would certainly bring up the value also. So, thank you very 25 much. 2-28-11 168 1 JUDGE TINLEY: We have -- 2 MS. COLLINS: Judge, Mrs. Snodgrass would like to 3 talk, even though she didn't sign in, and there were two 4 people that -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll get to you in just a moment, 6 okay? 7 MS. COLLINS: Thank you. 8 MS. KRETZER: I just wanted -- since the attorney 9 is not here, I would like to make a comment, and maybe see 10 how we can find out what class this is in. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that's going to be determined 12 anyway. 13 MS. KRETZER: Right. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Is your comment relative to closing 15 or not closing of the roadway? 16 MS. KRETZER: Yes. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. You may finish your comments. 18 MS. KRETZER: Thank you. Back to -- Dorothy 19 Grayson Kretzer. And my closing comment is just that I think 20 that Mr. Jimenez will find that leaving the road open may 21 bring in more revenue than closing it. I am a member of the 22 Hill Country Archeological Association, and a number of years 23 ago I was a member of a -- I was an archeologist on a dig in 24 San Antonio in front of the Alamo. And if Mr. Jimenez' 25 corporations or businesses -- companies would allow the 2-28-11 169 1 historical commission and the archeological association to do 2 some work out there, I can tell you, when people find out 3 there's a dig going on, they come. Indiana Jones has not 4 disappeared. (Laughter.) Thank you. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mrs. Kretzer. Yes, go 6 ahead. 7 MS. SNODGRASS: Thank you, Judge. Good evening, 8 gentlemen, and audience too. I'm perhaps the oldest person 9 here. I was born about two blocks from here, right over 10 there by where the Catholic school -- civic center is, and 11 I've lived here all my life except on the -- I lived also on 12 the Divide. And as someone reminded me the other day, the 13 Divide never has shown up on a map, but we knew where the 14 Divide is. And I used to give lectures on Kerr County 15 history; did that for over 20 years, and I've been a member 16 of the historical commission for over 30, 32 years. And I 17 don't have an office now, so I'm more or less kind of 18 speaking not only as a commissioned member, but as a personal 19 thing about this, because this is a beautiful spot out there, 20 and it's well-known for many miles around, and many people 21 know about it. And I think it is up to us -- and when I say 22 "us," that includes you and me and everyone else -- to 23 preserve what is there. I've always thought that money and 24 bulldozers can change anything they want to, and it sure 25 doesn't always mean the best thing to do. I think we should 2-28-11 170 1 keep that as it is and leave it like it is. It'll probably 2 be less hindrances or less security troubles than it would 3 otherwise. And, anyway, they have 1,900 acres; I bet they 4 could find a place somewhere over there on the other highway 5 and face the cafe out that way, and let the parking lot be 6 out there where there's plenty of room, and not make -- as 7 Julius Neunhoffer was talking about the danger of the road 8 across the -- other road across the road there, how much 9 danger it might be with more people being there. So, I would 10 like to say that I hope that the Commissioners will consider 11 the thoughts of the Historical Commission and the 12 archeological society, because we fight for things that we 13 feel like will be for the best of Kerr County. And I've 14 always said, if you don't know who you were, you don't know 15 who you are. Thank you. 16 (Applause.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much. That will -- I 18 will now close the public hearing with respect to action 19 concerning the closing, vacating, abandoning, or 20 discontinuance of all of Camp Verde Road from F.M. 480 to 21 Highway 173 pursuant to the Texas Transportation Code. 22 (The public hearing was concluded at 1:41 p.m., and the regular Commissioners Court meeting was 23 reopened.) 24 - - - - - - - - - - 25 JUDGE TINLEY: And I will reconvene the 2-28-11 171 1 Commissioners Court meeting and go to Item 13, dealing with 2 the consideration, discussion, and action to close, vacate, 3 abandon, or discontinue all of Camp Verde Road from F.M. 480 4 to Highway 173 pursuant to the Texas Transportation Code. 5 It's been indicated to me that Mr. Jimenez would like to make 6 some comments at this time. Mr. Jimenez? 7 MR. JIMENEZ: Thank you. Thank you very much for 8 allowing me to address the Court again. I know history is 9 something very passionate to people. We have always strived 10 to be good neighbors in Camp Verde. We have heard the 11 comments of the citizens here. We respect their views. When 12 we first started this process, we really did not realize the 13 -- the reaction or just how passionate people were going to 14 be about Camp Verde Road. It was something that -- that 15 would help us in our -- in our restaurant, as I mentioned 16 earlier. But after hearing all the citizens here, we -- we 17 understand how they feel. We respect that, and so, in an 18 effort to be better citizens and better neighbors, we hereby 19 withdraw our request to close the road. 20 (Applause.) 21 MS. WALLING: Thank you. 22 MR. GONZALES: Thank you. 23 MR. JIMENEZ: I want to thank everyone here. 24 Everyone had some very, very positive comments. And I 25 understand we have different views on -- on things, but I 2-28-11 172 1 think this is something that -- that needs to be done. We 2 have spent seven years building up goodwill in the community, 3 and we just feel that this is the right thing to do. And so 4 with that, we withdraw the -- our request. It does have some 5 implications to our plans, but I do want to assure the Court, 6 assure the citizens here that we will move forward with our 7 plans to build the restaurant. We will build it. 8 The -- I do want to allay some fears in terms of, 9 what is the long-term plan for Camp Verde? We're private, in 10 terms of we've got a retail business there. We have no 11 intention of doing any kind of residential development. 12 We -- that's never been in our horizon at all, and so hearing 13 people make -- make assumptions and assertions as to what our 14 long-term plans are, those are just -- they're untrue. It's 15 just -- we -- you know, we love the Camp Verde area. We love 16 the hill country, and that's why we're there, and that's why 17 we've invested in the area, and we will continue to do so, 18 but not at the -- not in terms of development for 19 subdivisions or for whatever may have been said here before. 20 We're here to operate the Camp Verde General Store, and we'll 21 continue to do so. And -- and I think our track record 22 speaks for itself. And, again, thank you very much for the 23 citizens. And as I mentioned in our meeting back in January, 24 we part as friends, and to where we have differences of 25 opinion sometimes, but we listen to comments and we're 2-28-11 173 1 responsive to the community. And in that regard, I thank you 2 very much for your comments, and we look forward to seeing 3 everyone at Camp Verde General Store. 4 (Applause.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 6 MS. TOWNSEND: May I just say one thing? You'll 7 never regret the decision. And I want to tell you, a 8 91-year-old woman can be so crazy when it comes to history. 9 My house was the landmark in Center Point, Texas. I've lived 10 there 45 years, and it burned to the ground. All the 11 volunteer fire departments there said, "Do not take the 12 chimney down; the old lady wants to keep it." I did. And 13 why I wanted to keep it, it was 125 years old. And the man 14 that made -- put up three chimneys for Governor John Connelly 15 came by all the time to see the way they put the rock 16 together. And I spent 100,000 -- $125,000 to build a cabin 17 just to protect the chimney. 18 (Applause.) 19 MS. ROBERTS: Can I say just one thing? I'll make 20 it real short. Being -- the Microsoft owner, Gates, he 21 wasn't doing much of charity work or anything, and his 22 mother-in-law told his wife when they got married, said, "Do 23 you know what? Great wealth brings with it responsibility." 24 Sir, you have done the responsible thing, and I'm telling 25 you, I appreciate it from the depths of my heart. 2-28-11 174 1 MR. JIMENEZ: Thank you very much. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I think you might have gained a few 3 more customers there, Mr. Jimenez. (Laughter.) Maybe some 4 cheerleaders when it comes to putting your outfit on the map. 5 MR. JIMENEZ: We're serving lunch for another hour. 6 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Serving lunch for another 7 hour. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Buster had it pegged right. He was 9 talking about maybe the least you can do was order up some of 10 those good sandwiches to come in. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Buddy. Me and you, buddy. 12 AUDIENCE: Hey, it's not too late to go to Camp 13 Verde for lunch. 14 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I think we should. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have 16 anything further in regard to Item 13? 17 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I'd just like to say, 18 appreciate everybody coming. Mr. Jimenez, thank you. And we 19 continue to support your -- hopefully your store will expand, 20 and we're glad to have you in Kerr County. 21 MR. JIMENEZ: Thank you very much. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'm a little bit 24 disappointed, 'cause I had some really cute things to say. 25 I'm going to save them, though. They're coming. 2-28-11 175 1 (Audience exiting the courtroom.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: If I could have your attention, 3 please? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Attention. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: We still have some more business 6 here for the Court to conduct. Y'all can discuss and 7 whatever, but give us the opportunity to wind up our business 8 here, and y'all can discuss and confab all you want to 9 outside, on the lawn, wherever. Happy to have you. 10 MS. ROBERTS: Thanks to the Court, too, for putting 11 up with all of us. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back -- come back 14 to order, if we might. With regard to Items 14 and 15, 15 Commissioner Overby, I assume you want to pass on those 16 items? 17 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: They are withdrawn. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We have -- 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He's here. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mr. Harpold? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 16. Consider, 24 discuss, take appropriate action regarding possible 25 litigation regarding the Ingram Lake/Bill Vlasek issue. That 2-28-11 176 1 one -- well, the next two items will be in executive session, 2 so we will go out of public or open session at this time -- 3 it is 1:53 -- for the purpose of going into executive or 4 closed session. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Executive? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: This guy's on the clock, so we're 7 going to throw you out first. How's that? 8 MR. HENNEKE: Yes, sir. No, glad to. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's right. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: It's all about the money, isn't it? 11 (The open session was closed at 1:53 p.m., and an executive session was held, the transcript of which 12 is contained in a separate document.) 13 - - - - - - - - - - 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. We're back in public or 15 open session, and it's -- we went out of executive at about 16 2:21. It's 2:23; we're in public or open. Anybody have 17 anything to offer in connection with what's been discussed in 18 executive so far? 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, do you think that I 20 need to make a motion to -- to move forward with what we 21 discussed about, and put the deadline on it in open session? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I think it's just an implementation 23 of a prior action taken by the Court. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's what I was going to 25 say. 2-28-11 177 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We don't need to do that, 3 then? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, no. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: We got a couple of more items here. 7 Reports from Commissioners in connection with their committee 8 or liaison assignments. Do you have anything? 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 11 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: No. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: That was quick. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's a first. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Reports from elected officials or 15 department heads? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They don't have any. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, do you want to tell us -- 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Do they want to go first? I 19 didn't know if they want to go first. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Henneke, I didn't realize that 21 we didn't need you for the other executive session item, but 22 that's okay. We're in open right now. 23 MR. HENNEKE: Okay. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Quickly. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Quickly, what I kind of 2-28-11 178 1 mentioned a little bit ago about the jail status and 2 legislative thoughts and what we're seeing coming down the 3 pike, but it's not going to be good. Current date -- current 4 population as of this morning was 142, and 16 of those are 5 parole violators. Most of them also have other charges, but 6 there's -- 35 of those are violation of probations. And, 7 unfortunately, I do see some of our terms and how long they 8 stay in jail going back up. We've got some out of both 9 courts, 198th or 216th, that -- with over 200 days, and a 10 couple with right at 400 days, and it's just -- I think we're 11 just going to see it get worse and worse up to this point. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Does the 45-day rule apply to parole 13 violators? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Only applies to paper-ready. 15 That's whether it's a parole violator -- 'cause a parole 16 violator is just a blue warrant; it's not the white warrant 17 ordering them to be sent back, okay? And once they issue the 18 white warrant, that's when they consider them paper-ready, 19 and that's after they have all their hearings and everything 20 else. And I just end up with all kinds of issues. They're 21 going to find ways around it. Now they're talking about 22 closing one prison unit and releasing a whole bunch of 23 others, and it doesn't look good, from what I've seen, on any 24 of our stuff. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: What, if anything, can you do to get 2-28-11 179 1 some action going on the people you got on parole violations? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Not very much. Unfortunately, 3 they're -- it's even written in the Code of Criminal 4 Procedure, and I think maybe the Local Government Code, that 5 if they are being held on a parole violator, the direct -- or 6 parole violation, the direct wording out of the code is that 7 the Sheriff shall -- not "should" or "must" -- shall keep 8 them until everything's been taken care of, period. I cannot 9 release them on bond. You cannot release them in any other 10 way, shape, or form. We're just stuck. Now, we get along 11 well with the parole officers that handle everything locally, 12 and they do try and move them some, but you just see it 13 getting pushed off more and more. On the other side of the 14 coin, we do have, as you approved this morning, the fitness 15 room itself. The part the Court paid for is completed now, 16 and the fence is under construction. They have most of the 17 10-foot posts up, and should be starting to string wire in 18 the next few days. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Got any minimum-risk prisoners we 20 might put in the fitness area? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, sure don't. I do want to 22 get with the Court, and -- and as I said, we're going to pay 23 the psychiatric part out of the commissary. But I think one 24 thing I can do -- and we'll just have to look at it, and I'm 25 not coming asking for more manpower. I think you know how 2-28-11 180 1 I've been trying to work that and cut down, like I agreed to 2 give two. I've given four positions so far that we're not 3 filling, so I think we're doing pretty good. But one avenue 4 we do have, if we get the fence completed, then especially, 5 like, Rob's commitments or ones that he has in there, if I 6 can get them outside working, whether it be in the garden 7 area or anything else, then I can give more good time to 8 those inmates and speed up those that stay in the county 9 jail. But, of course, moving those people out, getting them 10 outside working like that is going to take manpower on guard 11 duty. That's the only thing we'll have to -- I just think we 12 ought to look at and see. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: One mean junkyard dog might 14 take care of it. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Won't quite work. But -- 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Very well trained. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But I think, you know, that 18 the garden area, which I do intend to do as far as setting it 19 up and running, the plumbing out to it, all that, those funds 20 will come out of the inmate commissary account. I think 21 that's what that can be used for, and we'll see what we do 22 with the vegetables. But a lot of that kind of stuff is 23 putting them in a trustee status, where I can give them more 24 good time. We've already had a couple meetings with the City 25 and with municipal court and gone through some things on how 2-28-11 181 1 we're doing Class C's, and they're getting to the point that, 2 you know, they're not going to be held in the county jail 3 that the City's not going to be paying for. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Has the issue of -- where they're 5 subsequently allowed to give a credit to lay out a fine, has 6 that issue been broached with the City? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The issue has been brought to 8 the City's attention, and that they had been doing it kind of 9 where we would fill out the paperwork, the jail staff would, 10 to let the guy plead guilty, and the municipal court just 11 rubber-stamped them. We told them we weren't doing that any 12 more; the code really doesn't allow that. So, now they can 13 either send a court judge over there to take those pleas, 14 because we can't do it, or those people will be released 15 immediately on P.R. bonds. So, they are being released on 16 $500 P.R. bond on all Class C misdemeanors. Then they wanted 17 to issue orders for incarceration to have them immediately 18 released on P.R. bonds anyhow, and I said no. Just send them 19 a summons, just like our County Court does, or County Court 20 at Law does. Because you have to have the show cause 21 hearing, which they weren't having. So, we told them we 22 would rather they just do summonses, just like we do, and not 23 put them in jail to get them to court. And if they do end up 24 with those that do stay in jail, on their fines, the time 25 they work out their fines after they've had the show cause 2-28-11 182 1 hearing, then the City is being billed for their boarding per 2 day. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: For those they deter, getting 4 credit? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For these days, they're 6 getting credit. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. They're giving them $50 9 a day credit for the time on their fine, and then we're 10 billing them $45 a day -- or $40 a day, I think. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll have to work off volume, then. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There is several of the 13 sheriffs that have gone to getting their County Court at Law 14 Judge to issue a court order that any Class A and B 15 misdemeanor gets an automatic $500 surety bond, to keep these 16 5,000 or issues like that. That's something Rob would have 17 to -- I'm sure would want to weigh in on, but it is keeping 18 the Class A and B misdemeanors also out of their jails 19 primarily, and letting jails be what they -- unfortunately, 20 in today's time, what they should be for is your repeat 21 offenders or your felons. 22 MR. HENNEKE: We brought that -- you know, we 23 brought that population down. The only ones that are really 24 staying with misdemeanors are ones that have felonies also. 25 The felonies are waiting to be adjudicated, and they have 2-28-11 183 1 some -- some misdemeanors. Our docket, as far as those that 2 are waiting for something to happen to their case, that's 3 moving. We've cut that time down to -- to almost nothing. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, right, as far as 5 waiting. Now, that's where the trustee -- outside trustee 6 program can help, because what you are doing and what County 7 Court at Law has been doing is sentencing quite a few of them 8 to jail time on their County Court at Law offense. 9 MR. HENNEKE: Right. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Six months in jail, nine 11 months in jail, a year in county jail. And that is still -- 12 yes, their case is taken care of, but our jail is not taken 13 care of. 14 MR. HENNEKE: That's where the good time and the 15 trustees and your discretion kicks in, which isn't the case 16 if somebody's just sitting there waiting for something to 17 happen on their case. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just -- that's a different 19 issue. I think it's something, seriously, we're going to -- 20 especially in the next few years, or next couple years, that 21 the way things are going, we may want to try and get the 22 prosecutors and the judges together and come up with some 23 potential alternative ways besides the Friday court day. You 24 know, whether it's a standing order for misdemeanors, whether 25 it's -- it's alternative sentencing or community service. 2-28-11 184 1 Now, the other thing that they're looking at, which is going 2 to hurt Rob and them, is the Legislature seriously right 3 now -- both bills have it, is to cut all funding for 4 misdemeanor probation departments. And one of the real 5 concerns with that is, it's not going to leave prosecutors 6 much choice other than putting them in jail, because they 7 won't have any type of supervised misdemeanor probation 8 unless the counties pick up the bill for it. Doesn't look 9 good. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: What's the cap on the probation fees 11 for misdemeanors? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I really don't know. 13 MR. HENNEKE: I don't know what the cap is. They 14 pay 40 a month right now. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: They're paying 40 a month? 16 MR. HENNEKE: Mm-hmm. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But there's -- 18 MR. HENNEKE: In addition to the other -- 19 everything else that's assessed. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that the cap, 40? 21 MR. HENNEKE: I don't know offhand what the cap is, 22 but that is what they're being assessed. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, Sheriff? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's it. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Any other elected 2-28-11 185 1 officials? Department heads? 2 MS. HYDE: Here's -- quick, just for your reading 3 pleasure. At y'all's -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Nothing like a homework assignment. 5 MS. HYDE: Went to the city meeting. It was great; 6 had a great time, and I came back, and there's your reading 7 material, gentlemen. 8 MR. HENNEKE: How was the lunch? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. What did y'all have? 10 MS. HYDE: I'm sorry? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What did you have for lunch? 12 MS. HYDE: I don't know what it was. Just lots of 13 onions. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we smell your breath? 15 MS. HYDE: Oh, no sir. I didn't eat it. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 17 MS. HYDE: AXA is coming on the 15th and 16th of 18 March, and then we plan on having T.C.D.R.S. come in May, but 19 I'm going to bring that to the Court. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 MS. HYDE: That's it. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other department heads? 23 MR. GARCIA: Just wanted to bring you a land 24 situation out at Ingram. With the current city sewer 25 services getting ready to come online, and the different set 2-28-11 186 1 of circumstances or requirements that the City of Kerrville 2 put on that -- for that system, we have a lot of residents 3 and the telephone company out there that are really at the 4 end of their O.S.S.F. system, their septic systems. The 5 city -- the telephone company is having to pump their system 6 every day, and now they're looking at other alternative means 7 of putting in a lift station, just for the -- the interim 8 until the City of Kerrville and the City of Ingram can hammer 9 out the differences. 10 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Is that H.C.T.C.? 11 MR. GARCIA: The telephone -- 12 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Hill Country Telephone Co-op. 13 MR. GARCIA: They put in an $85,000 line, ready to 14 tap in. But now with the -- again, with the circumstances 15 that have come up, it's put them in a bind. And -- 16 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Yeah. 17 MR. GARCIA: -- I spoke to the CEO out there, and 18 we're going to work with them and try to find other solutions 19 rather than them spend another $200,000, $300,000 on a lift 20 station they're just going to have for three to four months, 21 or whenever this thing gets resolved, goes away. We -- I 22 spoke with the liaisons, Commissioner Oehler and Commissioner 23 Letz, about other alternatives or other systems that are out 24 there that are not being used, that maybe they can use, which 25 would require them to come to Commissioners Court and maybe 2-28-11 187 1 get a variance, depending on the situation. But other than 2 them, again, the public out there, we're working with the 3 public and trying to mitigate the -- soften the blow of all 4 these overflows and these discharges that we're having out 5 there, and not putting these people into enforcement, but 6 trying to work with them to try to find other means to help 7 them. Because, basically, they did what they were supposed 8 to do, and some of these people that we're dealing with, a 9 few years ago just put in a brand-new tank or brand-new 10 system, and now they're ready to do what they have to do. 11 But with what is going on between the City of Kerrville and 12 City of Ingram, it's put a hardship on quite a few people out 13 there. But we're doing all we can to -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is going on? What is 15 the issue? 16 MR. GARCIA: I spoke to their attorney -- well, 17 Ingram City Attorney, Ms. Bailey, in terms of that, and 18 there's some requirements that they have for videoing that 19 apparently -- I don't know if they were or were not done. 20 And I don't want to get too much into this, but they were 21 talking about the videoing, taking pictures of the system 22 being installed, for fear of intrusion of their wastewater. 23 Meaning that they didn't want any dirt to get mixed in with 24 their wastewater that was going to the treatment plant over 25 here in Kerrville. I don't know too much about it. 2-28-11 188 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Taking the position that they don't 2 have any infiltration of sediment or silt or anything into 3 their existing wastewater system in the city of Kerrville? 4 MR. GARCIA: That's one of the questions that we 5 had, you know, that -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: What was their response to that? 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sealed system, I'm sure. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. 9 MR. GARCIA: But, anyway, Buster, to answer your 10 question, I don't -- all I know is that, you know, the 11 County's doing everything we can to help these people out, 12 because they are -- they're at the end. And as we all know, 13 Ingram has a severe problem with septic discharge and their 14 lack of any kind of systems in some of these areas and these 15 streets, and it's there now. And we're ready to do this 16 thing, but again, whatever's going on between the City of 17 Kerrville and City of Ingram is actually putting a hardship 18 on not only the telephone company, which is spending a large 19 amount of money doing this, but residents there also. 20 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: H.C.T.C. have expanded 21 already their new facility, already built that, and they 22 spent 85,000 as far as the extended the line to where they 23 were going to -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes, they bore that -- 25 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: All that -- 2-28-11 189 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- all the expense. And we 2 were told they were going to be online at a certain time, and 3 now the City of Kerrville's holding them up. 4 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not letting them flow 6 Phase 1, and which now is -- Hill Country Telephone's tied 7 onto, 'cause they just built a new building. 8 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And they had to basically 10 abandon part of their system to put that building in there, 11 thinking they were going to get to flowing this stuff. 12 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Any timeline when they think 13 they're going to get it resolved? 14 MR. GARCIA: Well, I spoke to Bruce -- 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Good question. 16 MR. GARCIA: That's the million dollar question. 17 We don't know. And, again, tomorrow we have a meeting there 18 at Hill Country Telephone Company with them in regards to an 19 alternate. 20 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: The City's aware of all of 21 the circumstances on what's going on with these folks too? 22 That you know of? 23 MR. GARCIA: Yeah. Well, that's why I met with 24 their attorney, the City of Ingram's attorney, and then to 25 voice my concerns to what people are calling into our 2-28-11 190 1 department and, you know, wanting something done. But at the 2 same time, you know, okay, you know they met their timelines, 3 and then now it's not ready, so what do we do? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just a valve turn on the flow 5 pole, all they got to do to get it flowing. 6 MR. GARCIA: Any more questions? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Ms. Hargis? 8 MS. HARGIS: Let me first answer the D.P.S. 9 questions. I found from the two clerks, Buster, that most of 10 the reimbursements come from that that's being paid by mail, 11 and they read the statement wrong and include too much money 12 in -- in their check, part of which is included in the base 13 fee. And they don't understand that, and they write it -- 14 they write the check, send it in, and they overpay. And for 15 both clerks, that's where most of it comes from, is writing 16 payments. People think they owe more, but they're trying to 17 read the little fee schedule that we hand out to them, and a 18 lot of these fees are already included in the base rate of 19 $100, and they include more than they should, so they have to 20 reimburse it to them. So, that's where those reimbursements 21 are coming from. Elsa and Misty both had the same -- I 22 talked to Elsa and I talked to Misty; got the same answer 23 from both clerks. So, it's mostly people who, you know, get 24 a ticket and then they send their checks in, and they overpay 25 because they don't read the payment right. 2-28-11 191 1 The other thing I wanted to kind of make y'all 2 aware of -- and if I send out an e-mail, then you can look at 3 it. We set up a budget called Projection Analysis, and I was 4 going to try to have it ready by this meeting, but I didn't. 5 But I will put it live so you can go on and look at it. I 6 updated the revenue based on what we're getting today. I'm 7 going to put the 100 percent expenses that we have today. I 8 don't want to project expenses I don't know we don't have. 9 That will give you some kind of idea as to whether we're 10 going to be short or we're going to have -- sales tax is up, 11 which is great. Probably tied to gasoline, but it's up about 12 7 percent, which is great. Unfortunately, some of the other 13 fees are down. We're still not getting our -- you know, our 14 fines and fees are still not coming up. They're -- they're 15 looking even less than what we projected. And then, 16 expense-wise, I mean, our normal stuff, we're staying pretty 17 much in line, but we're really going outside the box on all 18 of our legal and professional fees. It's nothing we can do 19 about it, but I just want y'all to be aware of it. 20 But I'm going to send that out; we'll send you a 21 little notice. We'll tell you how to get online to look at 22 it. And if you look at the summary page, it will give you 23 kind of an idea of where we're at, and at the same time, when 24 you're looking at that one, you can look at -- there's a -- 25 if you look in the Incode, there's a summary statement on the 2-28-11 192 1 financials. If you want a snapshot, you can do that; kind of 2 shows you how to do that. That will give you the total 3 amount, say, in Fund 10, the total amount of expenses, total 4 amount of revenue, total amount left. That's a quick 5 snapshot of that. So, keep in mind, this time of the year, 6 we got a whole lot of revenue, because we got all of our tax 7 money in. This time of year, we look pretty good 8 revenue-wise. It's when we stop getting revenue, which is 9 about May or June, that it starts to, you know, dwindle down 10 because we're having to use that money. 11 Interest revenues are still kind of in the toilet. 12 We do expect the RFP's on the bank by 3 o'clock this 13 afternoon. I only have three banks so far that have 14 responded, have even talked to me; Schreiner Bank, Wells 15 Fargo, and Chase, and those are the only three. We sent out 16 10. We got some letters -- a lot of the banks here locally 17 just sent me a letter and said they weren't interested; they 18 had more money than they needed. So, basically, that's kind 19 of where we're at on that. But -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Can you give us the name of those 21 banks where we can all go apply for a loan? 22 MS. HARGIS: I can't guarantee you can get it. 23 But, anyway, that's just kind of the nuts and bolts of that, 24 so we'll have to approve or pick one at the next court 25 meeting, and then hopefully we can have that bank on board by 2-28-11 193 1 the end of the month, whichever one it is. So, that's it. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're talking like -- 4 you're talking like that we're changing banks. 5 MS. HARGIS: It's totally up to you. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand that, but you 7 said -- 8 MS. HARGIS: Schreiner Bank is making a proposal. 9 And -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Schreiner Bank is? 11 MR. HENNEKE: Security State. 12 MS. HARGIS: Security State Bank. And -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You really scared me there 14 for a minute. 15 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Haven't heard that for a long 16 time. 17 MS. HARGIS: I was thinking -- okay, Security State 18 Bank, Wells Fargo, and Chase. Sorry. 19 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move we leave. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We got one more executive. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else? Any more 23 reports? Okay. We'll go out of public or open session at 24 2:45 for the purpose of going into executive session again. 25 / 2-28-11 194 1 (The open session was closed at 2:45 p.m., and an executive session was held, the transcript of which 2 is contained in a separate document.) 3 - - - - - - - - - - 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's go into public or open 5 session. It is 2:58. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Anything else you can dream 7 up we can do? Golly. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Letz got a break this time, didn't 9 he? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where is he? 11 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Yeah, where is he? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have 13 anything further to offer? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir, I do not. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not a chance. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: We stand adjourned. 18 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 2:59 p.m.) 19 - - - - - - - - - - 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-28-11 195 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 official reporter for the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 8th day of March, 2011. 8 9 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 10 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 11 Certified Shorthand Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-28-11