1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Workshop 10 Tuesday, January 17, 2012 11 1:30 p.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 GUY R. OVERBY, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X January 17, 2012 2 PAGE 3 Review/discuss Kerr County Jail Facility expansion 1 & Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center renovations 70 4 --- Adjourned 92 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Tuesday, January 17, 2012, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let me call to order this 8 Kerr County Commissioners Court workshop that's posted and 9 scheduled for today, Tuesday, January 17, 2012, at 1:30 p.m. 10 it's a bit past that time now. The agenda item for the 11 workshop is to review and discuss Kerr County jail facility 12 expansion and Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center renovations. 13 I guess we'll start with the jail facility since it's first 14 listed. Sheriff -- and I thought I saw Mr. Gondeck here. 15 Why don't you tell us what you guys have got in mind. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, we haven't really -- I 17 did want to pass this out. You can look at that. It's a 18 graph. It starts -- I kind of went from top to bottom. We 19 went back to '08 in doing -- trying to see what our 20 classifications were. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you want your notes? 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's my other note; I did 23 need that one. Since '08 -- the way this reads is January 24 '08 -- at the January 12 -- 1-12-08, and then 6-12-08 down 25 below it. To do the classification, I had to take a one-day 1-17-12 wk 4 1 population and just break that out and see what it was on 2 that day. So we did '08, the first column. '09, '010, '11 3 and '12. Okay? And you can see that's where we stood with 4 number of minimums, mediums, and max. Now, in classifying 5 inmates, you can put minimums and mediums together, or you 6 can put mediums and maxes together. You cannot put minimums 7 and max. That's the way it works. And that's just 8 classification, but that's a very small part of that whole 9 picture. You still have to be able to put people that can 10 get along. People that can't, gang members, you know, 11 whatever -- you know, sex abusers normally cause issues, 12 because -- especially injuries to a child or things like 13 that; you're going to have issues with where you house them. 14 There's a whole lot more than just the way they classify out, 15 so it really makes it difficult. Last week alone, we had 16 four different fights in that jail, all in one week. And 17 some with injuries and that, just 'cause of that. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Generally, from your -- just 19 your knowledge of this, is it easier to put minimums and max 20 -- minimums and mediums together, or mediums and maximums? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Again, it's really difficult, 22 okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 'Cause you can't mix and match; 24 you got to do one or the other? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You can either do minimums and 1-17-12 wk 5 1 max as a group. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You say -- let me go back. 3 When you say a group, you mean, like, putting them in a 4 dormitory-type? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Or in the same cell blocks. 6 We have 8-person cellblocks, 16-person cellblocks, 18-person 7 cellblocks. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, you can house some of the 10 minimums and some of the mediums in the same cellblock, okay, 11 or you can house mediums and maximums in the same cellblock, 12 but you cannot house minimums and maximums in the same 13 cellblock. Okay, those have to be separate. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I went back. We started 16 this -- if you'll remember, being overcrowded, originally, 17 the first facility needs analysis we did through the Jail 18 Commission was done in June of 2005. You remember that year, 19 and prior to that year, we were hitting 200 -- as high as 208 20 in that jail, and we were having a very serious female 21 housing problem at that time. Some of the stuff -- and I 22 don't know if any of y'all still have it, because it is 23 old -- was when we were looking at the juvenile -- the old 24 juvenile facility, turning it in -- a study on that, and gave 25 you what the Jail Commission recommended. And in 2005, their 1-17-12 wk 6 1 recommendation for our jail was for the year 2005, they 2 recommended a capacity of 240. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How many? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 240. And to go all the way up 5 through 2025, they recommended in 2025 that we have a 6 capacity of 288. 7 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: And capacity right now is 8 what, Sheriff? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Current capacity? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: 192. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, the bed space is 192. 12 If you try and classify it just by the classification and 13 stay with 80 percent, you're talking about 153. 14 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: And what was the 2025 15 capacity that they recommended? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 288. This was a facility 17 needs analysis done in the year 2005. 18 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay? Now, the one they did 20 this year, y'all each got a copy of. Some of it recommends 21 up to, I believe, the 240, and others were -- in this one, 22 they recommended -- 2010, they thought 192 was fine, where we 23 currently are. And in 2030, they thought 240 would be fine. 24 They went down on their recommendation. Maybe Wayne can 25 explain a little bit more. And Jail Commission couldn't 1-17-12 wk 7 1 explain to me why they did that. They don't think population 2 growth's going to be as much as what they either anticipated 3 back then or whatever. I don't know, okay? Incarceration 4 rate is still real close to the -- well, it's actually -- 5 they're saying incarceration -- incarceration rate back in 6 '05 was 2.97. They're saying 2.84 now, so they're saying 7 it's -- we're not incarcerating quite as many. But the 8 reality problem that we face is not just on where we are 9 along with the rest of the state on -- on housing and, you 10 know, the number of beds they're using. I think we are very 11 unique because of our current court situation. And that 12 other little note that I had that Jonathan gave back to me 13 will play a very major role in what we're looking at. 14 Currently, as of a month ago, the 216th District Court has 15 478 criminal cases pending in their docket. That's just Kerr 16 County. 17 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Four what? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 478. 19 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The 198th District Court has 21 345 pending on their docket. We get one week a month; we get 22 12 trial days a year out of each of those courts. County 23 Court at Law has 1,081 cases pending on their court docket. 24 So, I didn't add those three together, but it's a lot. 25 That's current. 1-17-12 wk 8 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 1,000 even? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 1,081. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I'm sorry. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That is just current criminal 5 cases that have been filed and are pending. These people may 6 be on bond. There may still be arrest warrants for them, or 7 they may be sitting in jail and just haven't come to the 8 conclusion yet. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you going to get -- to 10 talk about how long they've been sitting there? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, I will. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. Probation. In Kerr 14 County alone, misdemeanor, there's 341 people on direct 15 probation, and there's another 265 on indirect probation. 16 The indirect is ones that are controlled and on probation out 17 of this office, but they may be living elsewhere, or also 18 reporting, but it would still come back to Kerr County. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: What was the indirect number again? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Direct is 341 misdemeanor. 21 Indirect is 265 misdemeanor. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: 265, okay. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Felonies, there are 496 on 24 direct probation for felonies, and 386 on indirect probation 25 for felonies. 1-17-12 wk 9 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How many? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 386. That's all Kerr County. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a stupid question, 4 probably. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why do I care how many are on 7 probation? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because -- I'll tell you in 9 just a minute. The potential impact in that jail. Parole 10 tells me that there's about approximately 150 people on 11 parole in Kerr County alone, okay? Now, where a lot of that 12 probation comes in, Jonathan, we had the Probation office 13 contact us last week. Probationers have to do monthly 14 meetings, meeting with a probation officer, all that. 15 They're starting to have a -- evidently, a problem with them 16 not showing up for meetings. And they called and got ahold 17 of the Jail Administrator, and they and wanted to know if 18 they started sending them to the County Jail for seven days 19 when they miss a meeting, to get their attention and make 20 them adhere to these meetings, could we do it? And I said no 21 way. I don't have the space; I cannot do it. Probation, 22 unfortunately, with that big a case load just for Kerr 23 County -- and we have people that are on probation after 24 probation after probation. They aren't paying their fines. 25 The administrative, I think, is costing the County. I think 1-17-12 wk 10 1 it's doing everything. 2 One thing when we first built the jail that we 3 have -- and we had the room to do it; Judge Prohl and Judge 4 Ables both used it very well, is that instead of revoking 5 somebody's probation and sending them to the penitentiary on 6 felonies, which is hard to do, 'cause the State doesn't want 7 you to, 'cause they don't have the room, and they're shutting 8 down prisons. They'd rather the counties do it. What they 9 would do is, when they were administrative violations, not 10 paying fines, costs, all that kind of stuff, the judge could 11 sentence them to the county jail for 30, 60, 90, 180 days as 12 a condition of their probation when they violated. They'd 13 come out of the jail; they're still on probation, but it gets 14 their attention and makes probation mean something, which 15 increases the number -- the amount of money they're starting 16 to pay finally for their fines, probation fees, all that. 17 Because they can go to jail at any time. Right now, they 18 don't have that threat. We've put ourselves in a situation, 19 with not going ahead in 2005, that it's really costing us in 20 a lot more ways than one. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Most of your probationers 22 are -- are people that would fit into a minimum or medium 23 security type setting? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Probably not. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They're not those kind of 1-17-12 wk 11 1 people? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Probably not. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're talking about maximum 4 for those people? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Medium/maximum is probably 6 most of them. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I was afraid you were going 8 to say that. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If you want -- and I'll let 10 Mr. Gondeck get up, but I can show you our daily -- average 11 daily population for the last -- since 2006. I've printed 12 that, if you want to hear those figures. I don't have -- 13 have an average daily count. Those counts don't include 14 holding tanks, because the thing is, what I'm giving you has 15 nothing to do at all with our J.P. courts or our municipal 16 courts, because those people ain't staying. I can't take 17 them. So, when they get -- you know, pay a fine or don't pay 18 a fine in J.P. court, they get out tomorrow morning on a $500 19 P.R. bond, and we start all over again. If they don't pay 20 it, we go back -- all we're doing is creating more and more, 21 until they start doing some actual commitments, and then we 22 give them quite a bit of good time on that. I've changed our 23 good time policy. We're trying to use more trustees in 24 everything we can. I run about 18 trustees inside the jail. 25 B.J. runs about anywhere from three to five outside the jail. 1-17-12 wk 12 1 We have the garden trustees that we get out and try and work, 2 trying to give as much good time as I can give. But yet 3 these people need to pay the price for what they've done. 4 These aren't -- I don't know what to tell you. 5 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Sheriff, I've got a question 6 for you. You stated in 2005 that the female population 7 started having a sharp increase. In the facility that was 8 built in '92, what number of units in that 192 were 9 designated for women's population or female population? And 10 my other question is, with that sharp increase from '05, how 11 are these numbers parallel with the probation and the 12 felonies? Are those increasing within as well as these are 13 going up, and how are those numbers going up? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Everything with females is 15 going up, okay. 16 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Can you say to what it is 17 attributed to? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. Economy. I mean, just -- 19 drugs. We're just ending up with more and more females in 20 jail. The jail currently -- the 192-bed jail is built to 21 house 32 females. There's been several times in the last 22 several months we've been up over 40, okay? We had to try 23 and change some of the 16 -- 'cause it comes in groups, 24 'cause it's cellblocks, or eight. Then you have to keep them 25 out of sight and sound. I took up 16 male beds when I got 1-17-12 wk 13 1 overcrowded to -- either I had to change 16 male beds into 2 female beds, or we had to start housing females out of 3 county. On changing 16 male beds, it cut me down so I only 4 had two maximum beds left for males during that time, and we 5 were right at the point that it was getting to where we 6 couldn't do anything, okay? Today's female population was 7 24. I'll tell you that -- I'm trying to look at -- trying to 8 tell you what pass-down was this morning, okay? Today's -- 9 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Are these mainly minimum? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 141 -- no, females are 11 both. 12 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay? We have quite a few of 14 both. The -- the issue that we have in trying to separate 15 out -- and Wayne's gone over it; he's seen our schematics of 16 the jail, and he can probably talk. But it's just, how do we 17 get us more females without taking up male beds? Okay? And 18 with the design of that jail, and with what -- I went back, 19 and doing all the research that we had from back then to the 20 long-range plan that was done in 2002 set it; in 2005 we set 21 it. And with the population and classification that we're 22 going right now, you're not going to want to hear it, but I 23 recommend -- and my recommendation to take care of that jail 24 for the next 20 years, so we don't end up with issues, is 25 going to be add 96 beds to the actual jail itself. 1-17-12 wk 14 1 If you add 96 beds, number one, it's going to save 2 on my -- on the long reoccurring costs of staff, because I 3 can run that with about one more per shift around, because 4 it's inside the same building; we're not separating out the 5 second building. Jail Commission is not that much for, from 6 what I understand, the second building. It will -- will meet 7 all the requirements currently to go up to that population 8 that we're required to meet. Now, they recommend an 9 infirmary, which we don't have; I've got a medical room. But 10 on 96 beds, we could actually end up with some beds for an 11 infirmary on what is currently the female side, just 12 depending on how you redesign it. But laundry -- you know, 13 we're running laundry every day of the week. But there's -- 14 since we contracted out with commissary and that, there's 15 actually -- we could expand the laundry room. We have to add 16 another washer and dryer in there and accommodate that. I 17 think with some modification, the current courtroom holding 18 could be turned into a regular holding. Your long-term 19 solution, I honestly believe, is going to be look at adding 20 -- and I've looked at it every way I can, and I'm telling 21 y'all honestly, the last thing a sheriff wants is more 22 inmates. But I think if we're going to make probation mean 23 something, if we're going to address our court issues the 24 best we can, we're looking at 96 beds to add onto that. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're saying you can do that 1-17-12 wk 15 1 with one more employee, which means five? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Five. One more on each shift. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You can do that? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think I can. We would have 5 it staffed -- because the other thing you have to look at is, 6 if we -- for the first, you know, several years, okay, if we 7 only fill 30 of those beds, 40, I only have to be staffed for 8 what we have in it. And we can work our shifts around that 9 and cover that staffing. If you see -- once we got, you 10 know, way up there to the -- to filling all 96, I still think 11 with one more employee, as long as I'm fully staffed at that, 12 we can do that. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, you're fully staffed 14 right now? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I'm going to have two 16 openings by probably the end of the month. But I do have 17 apps and will have those filled; that's not an issue. I 18 moved two out on patrol after the C.I.D. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought there were some other 20 requirements that -- when we increase the jail size, I think 21 infirmary and some of these other kinds of ancillary things. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only other required -- the 23 only required thing you have to have once you go over the 24 192 -- Wayne, correct me if I'm wrong -- is going to be the 25 negative pressure cell. We already have it. We have a 1-17-12 wk 16 1 negative TB pressure cell, so that's the only thing that is 2 required after 192. Everything else is recommended. You 3 know, Wayne looked at it and he saw the original drawings, 4 and he was concerned about the intake area not being big 5 enough. Well, several years ago it wasn't big enough, so 6 right off the sallyport area when they come in, we changed 7 what was the original file room into the intake area for -- 8 for incoming inmates. We can book four or five at one time. 9 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Sheriff, what was the 10 original cost in 1992 of the original jail? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If I'm correct, about 6.7, 6.8 12 million. We would have it in there. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, it was 4.8. It wasn't -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was thinking five. 15 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Five million? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, where -- it was not five 17 million. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not five even, but -- 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, it was just under five. 20 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: And we'll have that paid off 21 in February of this year, right? 22 MS. HARGIS: Mm-hmm. 23 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. Now, if you want the 25 bad news -- 1-17-12 wk 17 1 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's what I was going to 2 ask you. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: From the best I can tell you, 4 in 2005, if we'd have added 96 beds, it would have been 4.3 5 million at the costs of 2005. The cost right now to add 96 6 beds to that jail is going to be bumping $8 million. I think 7 Wayne will probably state that same thing. 8 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: 4.3 in '05 was the current -- 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Was the estimated cost, about 10 50,000 a bed then. It's close to 80,000 a bed now. 11 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Does that get those stainless 12 showers in there? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I hope. I've mentioned that 14 to him. But I think at this point, it's time for me to 15 disappear. I know this isn't the best news you want to hear, 16 but if we're going to be serious and try and take care of it 17 for the term of a bond or whatever it takes, and for the -- 18 for the next 20 years, I think 96 is the minimum, gentlemen. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you know, if you -- 20 to -- to take the next step, I mean, we can tell you you're 21 crazy, and get hell out of here and leave us alone; don't 22 come back and bother us any more. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Which is kind of what I 24 expected. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's what we -- 1-17-12 wk 18 1 we've done up to this point. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Fortunate that we can't take a vote 3 right now, isn't it? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'll be more than happy to 7 show it, and show why I came up with that. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hey, hey, hey, I'm talking. 9 And the -- you know, and I don't have a problem with making 10 the decision of what I think should be done. I mean, it all 11 boils down to me of do you want bad people running around in 12 the streets, or do you want them locked up? I mean, to me, 13 that -- it's that simple. But I -- you know, I really -- you 14 know, something this large, I think it would be kind of neat 15 to hear from -- if we could get some kind of poll or some 16 kind of something coming from the -- the public. Are we -- 17 you know, we can all give -- give the public Mr. Moser's home 18 number and let them call his house, and he doesn't like to be 19 called before 10 o'clock at night. To kind of -- would you 20 go for that, Tom? 21 MR. MOSER: You got it. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right, buddy. Thank 23 you. You know, to hear what the -- hear what the public 24 thinks about those things. I don't know about that goofy 25 little thing they do in the Daily Times, you know, if you 1-17-12 wk 19 1 want to -- I don't know; that thing that they do over there. 2 And that might be a way to do it, but I -- I would really be 3 interested in knowing what the general public thinks about 4 this kind of thing. I mean, do we want to leave it like it 5 is and leave bad people running around on the streets? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think you're right. I think 7 the public definitely should be involved. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, if we do a bond thing, 9 it'll probably eventually get to them. But I'm -- I'm kind 10 of wanting to know a little information now. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But right now, the thing is, 12 most of the public, I don't honestly believe, until I've said 13 it -- and hopefully the media will cover it, what our current 14 situation is with outstanding criminal cases in this county. 15 With the jail, you know -- I mean, this is today's jail 16 census. I'll pass it around; you can look at it. It's only 17 one copy. But what it is -- and you can start looking, and 18 I'll point this out to you. Here off to the side, right here 19 in parentheses, that's the number of days this person's been 20 in jail so far waiting to go to court, okay? These are the 21 charges against them. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can't give it to the 23 rest of us? Or -- 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I only have one copy, so 25 he can pass that around. 1-17-12 wk 20 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How many days was it, Bruce? 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, the first one's been in 3 257 days. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To me, that's unacceptable. 5 I mean, I don't know how you deal with that. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What do you do when you have 7 one week a month and you have 12 trial days a year, and 8 you've got, you know, 800 pending in felony court right now? 9 How many are we going to get to in a year? 10 MR. HENNEKE: I'd like to add -- I don't want to 11 interrupt Rusty, but I looked at it this morning. And, 12 Bruce, if you counted that as you put it around there, you'd 13 see that there right now are 41 individuals that have been in 14 the jail for at or over 100 days. You know, and that's -- 15 that's a significant number right there. So, you know, if we 16 look at building a bigger box without addressing judicial 17 resources and other issues that are going on, I think the 18 key's going to be, you know, how fast before we fill that up. 19 We'll just need to build, you know, a bigger one after that. 20 Rusty's right. You know, there's only one jury trial date 21 for each court per month, but a lot of months right now, 22 there's not a trial that's being had. And, you know, if 23 there is a trial that's being had, it's not necessarily a 24 case of somebody that's been sitting in jail for 100, 200, or 25 300 days that's the one that's being tried. So -- 1-17-12 wk 21 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A lot of times it may be -- 2 they try and do the ones in jail first, but a lot of times 3 the trials, and several this year, have been the ones that 4 have been out on bond for a year, and they got to do 5 something, so they finally try them. 6 MR. HENNEKE: We've got three murder cases sitting 7 in there, all of which have been in there for, you know, 8 several hundred days. And then you've got another 37, 38 9 people that have been there for 100 days or greater. So, I 10 see this as a big issue, and something that needs to be part 11 of the discussion, because, you know, the -- as far as the 12 County Court at Law court goes, we run a higher volume. We 13 file a whole lot more cases every year. But of the 1,000 14 cases that Rusty cited that are outstanding, right now half 15 of those have outstanding warrants, meaning there's warrants 16 out for these people's arrest. So, till they're arrested, we 17 can't address those cases. That leaves, you know, going back 18 to 2006, approximately 500 cases that are still being 19 resolved in County Court at Law. Which, given that we file 20 about 1,500 cases a year, really only represents about a 21 four-month to six-month inventory, so I'm pretty satisfied 22 with the way that we're -- you know, we're cycling or we're 23 processing through the cases in County Court at Law. 24 And if you look at the number of misdemeanor-only 25 cases that are in jail waiting for something to happen with 1-17-12 wk 22 1 their case, since I've come in as County Attorney, I've 2 knocked that number down from about 24, 25 at any given time 3 to single digits. And we have our jail docket every single 4 week, and I'd say it's uncommon that we have as many as seven 5 or eight people sitting in jail waiting for something to 6 happen to their misdemeanor case; that if we resolved it, 7 they could either be sentenced or they could be released. 8 So, when we had that meeting here a month ago or so, I'd 9 looked at the numbers, and at the time, there was about 30 10 individuals who were -- had 100 or more days that were 11 waiting to be -- that hadn't been tried yet. I'm sure that 12 number fluctuates up and down. Like I said, as of today's 13 date, it's -- it's 41. 14 Now, the other thing that I'll add, and I think 15 it's something that needs to be part of the dialogue, is the 16 female population. I went back and I did a separate count of 17 -- of the 41 individuals sitting in jail who've been there, 18 you know, 100 days on up, how many of those are females, and 19 the answer is two. So, with Rusty having a jail space for 20 females of 32, and, you know, really 80 percent of the 21 capacity is what -- you know, what's recommended, you know, 22 one -- one week where four or five females might get arrested 23 in one week is a really big spike in the female population as 24 far as capacity. I'll defer to him and -- and Mr. Gondeck as 25 to, you know, the overall recommendations. 1-17-12 wk 23 1 I'd just say we need to keep, you know, the time 2 and -- the time before the case is tried, if somebody's going 3 to be held in jail, in consideration. But I wonder if we did 4 still talked about one of those minimum-medium pods, you 5 know, like a 48-pod solution, if that wouldn't free up more 6 female beds to at least, you know, alleviate the crowding 7 issue that the Sheriff has on -- on females. 'Cause I agree 8 that we need to look at doing something, but until we 9 address, you know, the whole court system and the total 10 package, I don't know that just building, you know, more 11 beds -- 96 beds will carry us 20 years. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I think -- you know, I 13 really think we're kind of -- we've kind of tried to deal 14 with -- I've had so many meetings and everything with the 15 judges and the D.A.'s that most of them won't speak to me any 16 more over trying to push cases, move cases. I think most of 17 y'all know that. And there gets to be a point where people 18 need to be where they are. A lot of these people need to be 19 in that jail. They don't need to be out there running around 20 the county. Now, where I'm probably in some ways negligent 21 on even doing mine, which is putting me behind the 8-ball, is 22 we've got currently probably about 2,000 outstanding criminal 23 arrest warrants in my office. 24 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: In Kerr County? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In just my office. This ain't 1-17-12 wk 24 1 the city's municipal warrants; this is just ours, okay? Used 2 to, we would do -- about every six months, I think y'all 3 remember, we would do warrant round-ups. I haven't done one 4 in three or four years. Because if I do one, you know what's 5 going to happen. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Jail's going to be full. Rusty, 7 this may be a better question for Wayne, but you had 8 mentioned that the -- the cost is -- where it used to be 9 50,000, 60,000 per bed, it's now up to somewhere bumping 80. 10 That's -- that's for the heavy concrete, steel in the 11 maximum-type facilities, I suspect. One of the options that 12 we have been considering is the -- is a less than full 13 concrete and steel maximum type, some sort of unit of 48 14 beds. At one time, we even talked about two. You had 15 indicated that the Jail Commission people might -- might 16 bless one, but probably not two. If you -- if you go to 96 17 beds, what would be your proposal of the type of 18 construction? Would they all be the 80 grand a bed type? Or 19 would -- 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, unless Wayne can tell 21 you something different, I think it all has to be built right 22 in with the current jail. It comes off the jail; it's all 23 built the same type deal. I think the design of the cells 24 can be some, but if you're going to make it multi-use, 25 multi-functional to be able to take care of -- you can see 1-17-12 wk 25 1 what we've had. 2 MR. GONDECK: That may be a broader question, -- 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm going to let you -- 4 MR. GONDECK: -- to discuss that. I think y'all 5 have touched on about 10 different topics here. I appreciate 6 the invitation to be here this afternoon. I know that as an 7 architect coming and standing before y'all and talking about 8 the size of the jail, I have very little credibility, and -- 9 because, you know, the architects do benefit by the size of 10 the jail. But I'd like to talk a little bit about some of 11 the other issues that y'all have brought up. I'll take the 12 last one first. As far as the type of construction, whether 13 or not you need all maximum security construction -- and the 14 Jail Commission breaks that down into maximum security, 15 medium security, minimum security. There may be a 16 combination of that within the jail. Right now -- excuse me 17 just a second. You know, architects never can leave home 18 without some level of propaganda with them. This is just a 19 floor plan of the jail. 20 But if you'll notice, these pie-shaped cells here 21 in the middle, those are 16-bed dorms that you already have 22 within your -- your jail. And, realistically, you can place 23 medium security inmates in there if you have -- if you can 24 pick and choose the individuals that can get along in that -- 25 that area. You can place minimum security inmates. But you 1-17-12 wk 26 1 have 64 beds there that you have to deal with that are really 2 built -- or really designed to house more of the minimum 3 security inmates already right in the middle of your jail. 4 So, that's one thing that you need to look at as you're 5 deciding on the actual configuration of, you know, how many 6 eight-man or six-man, or different configurations of cells 7 that you're going to provide in any type of expansion. The 8 second thing is looking at, are you going to focus on other 9 programs, such as work release, such as outside trustees? 10 And if you're really going to push that, then you can start 11 moving more and more of those low-risk inmates into that type 12 of program or into that type of housing. Obviously, that, 13 you know, does have a benefit. The inmates get, you know, 14 more good time for participating in that, so you can bring in 15 some people that would otherwise be doing straight jail time. 16 There's work release; you keep people productive in 17 the community, all those good things. You know, they keep 18 their job, they keep on with their child support, all those 19 other things that go along with that. Those are things that 20 really need to be answered, not only in the -- the jail 21 design. That starts trickling over into how the justice 22 system -- the court system is dealing with these inmates, 23 both from their sentencing, how the probation is dealing with 24 things, and -- and how the Sheriff is having to manage them 25 in their jail. So, you really do need to look at it from a 1-17-12 wk 27 1 comprehensive perspective as far as how you're going to 2 manage your jail population, not only from building, you 3 know, bricks and sticks on a jail, or a physical plant, but 4 also in looking at how you're managing your criminal justice 5 system. Because, obviously, the -- the easiest thing to do 6 is go out there and build all maximum security beds, from a 7 management standpoint, because that way you have whatever you 8 need. You know that you can house any type of inmate in that 9 facility, and as you move down the road, if you have to come 10 up with some other type of program, then you can, you know, 11 come up with some alternative housing or some other type of 12 facility. 13 One of the things that has also affected you is 14 something that's affected most jails, that -- you know, 15 fortunately, there was some forethought here, but in a lot of 16 jails that were built over the last, you know, 10 to 20 17 years, that the female population most of the time was based 18 on somewhere between 6 and 8 percent. The most that people 19 were designing at that time was 8 to 10 percent, the female 20 capacity of a jail. We have seen, over the last 10 years, 21 that grow to where it is, somewhere around 12 to 15 percent 22 of the total population of the jail. And we are planning 23 these days more along the lines of 20 percent of the capacity 24 of the jail is for female population. You ask, why is that? 25 The -- you know, why are there more women in facilities 1-17-12 wk 28 1 today? A lot of it is with the criminal activity. Instead 2 of, you know, petty-type crimes, they are becoming more 3 serious type crimes, more assaultive type crimes. But also, 4 the sentencing has gotten more evened out on how females are 5 being sentenced and processed through the court system, so 6 we're seeing that too. And also hardening of the criminal 7 aspect of females. The one thing that -- that we really need 8 to look at, though, when you look at some of these other 9 programs -- and it's a word that I really despise, but by 10 coming in to the Jail Commission and trying to deal with some 11 of the jargon, was "net widening." 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What? 13 MR. GONDECK: Net widening. In other words, 14 developing programs that are going to increase the number of 15 people you're having to manage within a facility. Rather 16 than dealing with them -- if they're already on probation, 17 you know, bringing them back in. If they're already being 18 dealt with on probation, then you develop a work program. 19 And, you know, they're being sentenced to a work program, or 20 being sentenced to the jail so they can work in the gardens 21 and other things. That doesn't benefit your -- your overall 22 jail population. You're bringing back more people. So, 23 that's where it really comes in, that cooperative effort with 24 the justice system, with the judges and -- and the sentencing 25 process, is to make sure that there is a consensus of how 1-17-12 wk 29 1 that's dealt with as far as use of those facilities. Because 2 you can go build either contiguous or separate -- another 3 type of building to house a work program or some other type 4 of program, and you could fill it up overnight, almost, by 5 bringing in other people that are not in your jail right now. 6 That's probably not what you want to do, because that doesn't 7 alleviate your problem. So, there are many aspects to look 8 at in the actual planning of what the physical structure is. 9 As far as cost of structures, 2007, 2009, we're on 10 a skyrocket as far as the construction costs going up and up, 11 even drifting into 2010. Fortunately, that did level off, 12 even came down quite a bit through 2010-2011. We -- we saw, 13 you know, prices going up. Probably prior to their decline, 14 we're probably -- for a jail facility, we're probably sitting 15 in that $260 to $280 a square foot cost. Over this past 16 year, we have seen those go back to almost down to the $180 17 to $200 a square foot. So, the one beneficial thing is that 18 with a poor economy, you get the benefit of the construction 19 costs. Looking at it historically, and compared to what 20 y'all paid, probably almost $100 less per square foot than 21 what the prices are now. It's astronomical. So, when you 22 look at 4.8 for a 192-bed facility -- and I went through this 23 on a 48-bed facility not too long ago. 24 Talking about $3 million a few years back, and now 25 to having to talk to somebody about $6 million for a 48-bed 1-17-12 wk 30 1 jail, I was the one that everybody wanted to run out of town. 2 But it comes down to the -- the actual costs. And we had 3 looked at, you know, from the construction industry 4 standpoint, that we're kind of oddball, 'cause we think that 5 those prices can still be held at a reasonable level. But 6 when you're looking at, you know, in general, you know, 7 80,000, somewhere around that for jail construction, that 8 usually takes in account some mix of -- you're going to have 9 to have separation cells, at least 10 percent of your, you 10 know, single-occupant cells that you always want to stay with 11 that 10 percent. You're going to have some mix of multiple 12 occupancy cells that go from two to eight, and then you're -- 13 you cannot exceed over 40 percent dormitories by the Jail 14 Commission. 15 Now, that's supposed to all work out to meet that 16 classification needs for the -- the Sheriff, so that you can 17 have your minimum and mediums together, if you can find the 18 -- that's another thing, is that we talk about groups of 19 people, but everybody that is coming into your jail -- the 20 Sheriff, as you know, doesn't get to pick who he wants to 21 bring into the jail. Those people are coming in and out of 22 the jail on a daily basis. That population, the -- the 23 personality of that population changes on a daily basis. The 24 people that are assigned to cells change on a daily basis. 25 So, whether you have minimum/mediums that can go together, 1-17-12 wk 31 1 that's one thing, but you have to look at each individual 2 within that cell, and they have to be classified individually 3 as to whether or not they can particularly go in that group 4 of individuals. And it may be that it's because of some gang 5 affiliation, some in-laws or some relation that they have 6 with somebody else in that cell, those people may not be able 7 to get along, or you may not want them to get along because 8 of some court case that they may be coming up on that they 9 need to keep separated, but you can house them with somebody 10 else. 11 So, there's many things that go into classification 12 besides just that general issue of who they are as far as 13 their security risk. The minimum/medium/maximum does deal 14 strictly with their security risk. We -- we did generally 15 look at the building itself as far as the other needs, as far 16 as the support services area. Probably the laundry is 17 probably the most iffy area there, as to whether or not it 18 needs to be expanded. However, it's probably one of the 19 easiest areas that could be expanded. Of greatest concern, 20 like we have been talking -- discussing here, is on the 21 female area. There are the 32 beds there in 8-capacity 22 multiple occupancy cells, that really were intended to take 23 care of an expansion on the population. So, this -- you 24 know, so that you wouldn't be adding on female beds, adding 25 on male beds. However, with the female population growing, 1-17-12 wk 32 1 that has really consumed the entire female section of the 2 jail as it is now. There are some other areas, with some 3 minor modifications, that could probably be brought into 4 that, but that's really cutting into some of your higher 5 classifications of some of your male areas. So, those are 6 things that, you know, could be looked at, but could be 7 fairly easily, you know, satisfied. 8 Going back to bringing the public into it and how 9 the public can provide their input, Mitchell County, which 10 they did -- just passed a bond election this year in 11 November, took some very positive steps in that. And whether 12 they would have done a bond election or -- or issued C.O.'s, 13 I would have been supportive of their steps that they took 14 either way. They did have multiple public meetings where 15 they invited the general public to come in and to have 16 discussions with the Court there, and the Sheriff to present, 17 you know, the facts, the findings of what the needs were, to 18 have some presentations on what the conditions were in the 19 jail, what the financial conditions of the project were, what 20 it was going to cost. So that everybody would know, one, why 21 are you doing it? Why are you doing it now? And what is the 22 result going to be? What is the cost going to be to the -- 23 you know, the average homeowner or landowner? And get that 24 information out there. 25 But also to get some feedback from them as to -- 1-17-12 wk 33 1 you know, allow them to ask the questions of, why do we have 2 to do this, or why can't you do this? And -- and to be able 3 to stand up and answer those questions of why -- you know, 4 there's some things that y'all's hands are tied, you know, 5 and our hands are tied; the Sheriff's hands are tied, you 6 know, statutorily or otherwise as far as not being able to 7 either act or do some designs a certain way. There's also 8 some practicality issues that come into play that could be 9 possible, but may not be the most cost beneficial in the long 10 run, and those things need to be explained, you know, to the 11 public as to, you know, what -- these were our options, and 12 this is what we thought was best. There may be some other 13 good ideas out there, and it doesn't ever hurt to ask for 14 that or their input. I do usually ask that if we have a 15 meeting and I'm invited, that I borrow one of the Sheriff's 16 vests, so that -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Vest? 18 MR. GONDECK: So that when they start shooting at 19 the architect, that I'm a little bit more protected. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Would you advise us on what 21 kind of -- what gauge of chicken wire to put across here? 22 MR. GONDECK: Bull netting. (Laughter.) 23 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Bull netting. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One last thing I want to add, 25 is we all -- and I have too for the last number of years, 1-17-12 wk 34 1 have tried to say this is the county's criminal justice 2 system's fault 'cause we got so far backlogged, we got -- 3 everything else. Let's take care of the system, and we'll 4 take care of the problem. And I had that thought for a long 5 time, until I visited with some of the people with the Jail 6 Commission. And one of the counties, they had the same 7 issue, and they finally got really involved, got the 8 Legislature up there to finally create their own district 9 court so they wouldn't have the backlog of sharing with all 10 these other counties. And they -- the Judge, the Sheriff, 11 everybody thought this is great; this is going to take care 12 of our jail. The jail population went through the roof, 13 because now the backlog was being taken care of, and now the 14 warrants were being served, the cases were being heard, the 15 defendants were being sentenced. And their jail population 16 went right through the roof, and it put them in a worse bind 17 with their jail than it did before. You just have to look at 18 every aspect of that. I don't -- I don't want a bigger jail, 19 okay? I'll be honest; that's a nightmare. I'd get tired of 20 the lawsuits, the fights, everything else. And -- but I'm 21 telling -- I'm seriously telling you, we're going to look at 22 solving our problem, I think, whether it's going out to the 23 public for a bond issue, an election or whatever. I don't 24 know if that's y'all's issue, but my minimum recommendation 25 would be the 96. 1-17-12 wk 35 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty -- go ahead. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Gondeck, you know, whatever we 3 do here, we're going to have a number of options, and one 4 thing I need to interject, I think, is that we ought not be 5 penny-wise and pound-foolish. You can build a facility on 6 the cheap that creates a lot more operational expense, or you 7 can spend more on the facility, and in doing that, spend a 8 little bit more to create efficiencies where your ongoing 9 operational expense is kept to a minimum. One thing that I'm 10 going to be insistent upon, whatever we do, is that we do it 11 in a manner that we look at the long haul, the operational 12 expense, and to -- if it costs more for the facility in order 13 to achieve efficiencies so that our operational expense, our 14 manpower, our salaries and all that other that goes with that 15 operational expense can be minimized, that's certainly going 16 to be my choice. And I -- I think that's just good planning, 17 and I would hope that you would subscribe to that also. 18 MR. GONDECK: Judge, I would say that we definitely 19 do subscribe to that, and we are very cognizant about, you 20 know, the long-term costs and the ongoing costs that -- you 21 know, when you look at the cost of the -- any jail facility, 22 or generically a jail facility, that the actual physical 23 plant costs and that initial outlay of money is somewhere 24 between 10 to 20 percent of the overall expenditure on that 25 building for the lifetime of that building. So, when you 1-17-12 wk 36 1 look at the operational cost, and even after you've taken out 2 staffing, which is very important, which is another major 3 component there, the majority of the operational costs -- 4 which your layout needs to have that flow and function to 5 where it's an efficient, effective facility, that you really 6 can do some things that -- that are cost-effective as far as 7 the maintenance, upkeep, interview, things of that nature. 8 Now, Erath County just right, you know, up in 9 Stephenville, it's a 20-year-old facility that we're adding 10 onto right now, and looked back as far as the existing light 11 fixtures in the facility, and did a cost/benefit analysis on 12 that, that a lot of the light fixtures, which are expensive 13 detention fixtures, needed to be repaired. Well, look at a 14 20-year-old fixture with a magnetic ballast, T12 lamps, and 15 look at the fixtures today, to where they're T8's or T5's, 16 and, you know, you can get a lot longer bulb life. You can 17 get a lot less energy consumption off of them. The ballasts 18 don't go out all the time. To come in and actually just 19 replace the fixtures was much more cost beneficial -- 20 beneficial than going in and repairing the percentage of 21 fixtures that we're looking at. So, they were able to do 22 that. 23 We looked at many other, you know, items within the 24 existing facility, 'cause what they do is basically double 25 their size of facility. But in that process, you know, you 1-17-12 wk 37 1 don't want to go and put a -- a new element on your facility 2 and disregard the wear and tear on that, you know, 3 20-year-old facility. That does need to be looked at as to, 4 you know, the systems and everything. You know, is there 5 anything, you know, that really does need to be addressed at 6 the time? I would like to at least address the jail 7 standards analysis and needs and some of the population 8 projections, because we're seeing that, you know, in the last 9 five or six -- here in the last several months that the Jail 10 Commission has completed, that between the Texas State Data 11 Center on their population projections and the Jail 12 Commission on their facility needs assessments, that we 13 really have seen a flattening of their projection trends. I 14 know that statewide, you know, we have an overabundance of 15 jail beds, when you look at the total jail population around 16 the state and the total number of jail beds. And there are 17 some particular, you know, reasons for that. 18 A lot of the private facilities that have built for 19 profit have empty beds right now, in the thousands of beds. 20 The -- there are some other jail facilities, county 21 facilities that did build with that projection of serving 22 multiple counties, and built way beyond really what their 23 needs were, even for the life of the financing, with the 24 intent to serve some of the surrounding counties that were 25 not moving. One of the -- the phenomena that we have seen 1-17-12 wk 38 1 which is really an absolute anomaly to the cyclical nature of 2 jail population is having an economic downturn, and for the 3 jail population to go down statewide. We have not seen that 4 over the last 30 years. Typically, every time the economy 5 gets worse, the jail population goes up. You've probably 6 asked how the gurus of jail population -- and I've asked as 7 many that I can get ahold of, and they just shake their head 8 and say, "We don't know. We'll know sometime in the future 9 why that really happened and what that was." But, you know, 10 a lot of that does have to do with some of the state's 11 policies on release, but some of it does -- does have to do 12 with sentencing patterns, criminal activity, enforcement 13 rates. 14 But there are a multitude of things happening right 15 now that other all populations in the state are down for 16 jails. With that, there is a lot of pressure on the Jail 17 Commission to not be in the position to be pushing for more 18 jail space. So, unless there is an overriding or 19 demonstrable need for a jail facility -- in other words, if 20 your jail is in no way serving your needs, then it's very 21 unlikely that you're going to get much more than a needs 22 assessment that says that your current facility will suffice, 23 and possibly some nominal increase over time, which is true. 24 Right now, your facility is probably, off and on, meeting 25 your needs today. Your facility could be -- you know, if 1-17-12 wk 39 1 everybody sat down on a regular basis and had a jail docket, 2 and all the -- the District Judges and everybody sat down and 3 coordinated all their activities, which is really not a 4 feasible way of doing it, especially with visiting or 5 circuit-type situation, that you may be able to manage that 6 population better. 7 But in looking at it for the long term, it is going 8 to grow. Your population in the community is going to grow. 9 I don't think anybody thinks that Kerrville or Kerr County is 10 a destitute county where the population is going to diminish. 11 I think everybody is going to continue to grow here. I think 12 your homebuilding and house-building and other things are 13 going to continue to grow here. Commercial-wise, it appears 14 that things are still holding their own through the economic 15 times. So, to -- to wrap that up, there is going to continue 16 to be growth. You are in an optimum time for building for 17 your needs, both now and the foreseeable future, with reason 18 -- very reasonable construction costs and very reasonable 19 interest rates. We will be the least promotional for 20 building any type of speculative type facilities, of going 21 out and trying to say that you need to build something to 22 take care of somebody else's needs. But if you can take care 23 of your needs for the projected future, especially through 24 the life of any type of financing, that is a prudent thing to 25 do. Again, right now, as far as we've been selected as the 1-17-12 wk 40 1 architect for a project -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Be nice if you knew what it was, 3 wouldn't it? 4 MR. GONDECK: I think, you know, we tried to put it 5 together as far as the expansion there. You know, one of the 6 things that we did offer in the draft agreement was to expand 7 that first phase to look more deeply into taking a lot of 8 what has been said today and boiling that down into a more 9 definitive statement and documents to show, what are those 10 options? What are those harder dollar amounts to that? To 11 try to, you know, have something, you know, put into one 12 package so that you could see, you know, if you went forward 13 on 96 beds, this is what that really means. And what does it 14 mean cost-wise? What does it mean to solve, you know, jail 15 population, you know, trends, and what can it do possibly for 16 your justice system? If you do something less than that, how 17 does that apply? What are the other issues that need to be 18 addressed in the jail? And what is -- what would be the 19 financing packages, you know, of that? Because when you look 20 at it, you know you have construction costs; you have other 21 costs. The architect, you know, sometimes wants to get paid. 22 You got engineers, surveys, all those other things that go 23 along with that. 24 So, you want to make sure that you don't go out 25 there and say, oh, it's going to be 6 million, 8 million, 1-17-12 wk 41 1 whatever that dollar amount is, and then you start adding up 2 everything else it's going to take to finance that project, 3 and, well, you got to go back again, and now it's already 4 been in the newspaper once of this dollar amount, and now 5 it's something different. But that was the way that we 6 really looked at approaching this, is to look at, there is a 7 need for additional space at the jail, but it has not been 8 fully defined. And that is one of the things that the -- the 9 County is really looking for -- that y'all were looking for, 10 is some guidance and direction on that. I mean, it's not as 11 much to tell you what to do as it is to provide the tools to 12 make those decisions. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I have a couple questions 14 for -- a couple that's probably more for Rusty first, maybe 15 you as well, and maybe one for Jeannie. One of the problems 16 I see is, when I look at the numbers -- I know there's a need 17 for looking at the big picture, but when I look at the 18 numbers, the population of the jail, I don't see a bond issue 19 passing. I just don't see it. I mean, I don't -- I don't 20 know how we can sell one when our average population over 21 five years is 142, and has ranged from 120 to 158 -- I think 22 164. That's kind of the average these days. These are 23 just -- 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's just a one-day -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a one-day thing. But, you 1-17-12 wk 42 1 know, it's kind of -- if you look at that, you know, you're 2 coming out with an average population that is real hard to 3 justify spending $8 million when we're talking about peaks. 4 Now, the problem that I hear that's more of a problem, 5 really, is the probation issue, and some of those other type 6 issues that are a problem. So, my question after all that 7 is, intuitively, the probation-type people and the -- all of 8 that are -- tend to be more minimum-type people? Or is that 9 true? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: More of your medium/max. 11 They're your felons -- most of your felony ones, okay? It's 12 more -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're the worst? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The max, yeah. They're on 15 probation, a lot of those. And then what do you do with them 16 when they violate? You know, there's several things we have 17 to look at. This is -- if you want to know the average daily 18 population, this is 2011. It gives you total number of 19 bookings. This does not count holding cells, okay? So, the 20 inmates that are Class C's, all those arrests that come in, 21 that's not part of this. It's over 3,000 booked into the 22 jail in 2011. 158 was the average daily, okay. That doesn't 23 count any of those Class C's. I think -- and there's two 24 things we need to look at. Number one, as Judge Tinley just 25 stated, my jail budget is 2.3, somewhere around there, 1-17-12 wk 43 1 million a year, okay? We operate the jail off 900,000. All 2 the rest of it's salaries and salary-related. So, how it 3 works with being efficient and the least number of staff is 4 going to be key, 'cause that is going to be the biggest cost, 5 okay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's not the question. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, the other issue is, on 8 probation, on the Court making defendants adhere to their 9 probation and pay their fees and fines -- and you may have to 10 get somebody in Collections to look at this. We have no way 11 currently of enforcing it locally. The only option is revoke 12 them and send them to the penitentiary, okay? Or Rob revoke 13 them and send them to county jail. You're not collecting the 14 fees. They aren't sending them to jail because we don't have 15 the space, so these people are getting chance after chance 16 after chance after chance. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay? The county is losing 19 out. If we have -- if the courts have the ability to 20 incarcerate somebody for not paying their fees and fines, 21 especially on these felons for not adhering to the conditions 22 of their probation, okay, and you're not supposed to be 23 driving or whatever it is, and there's a -- there's a 24 consequence for not doing that, the adherence to probation is 25 going to improve drastically. And when the adherence 1-17-12 wk 44 1 improves drastically, the amount of fine moneys and court 2 cost moneys and all that coming in are going to start picking 3 up drastically, because they're going to start paying. It's 4 kind of like right now; if you -- if all they're going to do 5 is slap you on the wrist and leave you alone, half of them 6 won't pay it. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What are you going to do? 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Wouldn't it work -- I've 10 brought this up, and I know that Wayne brought it up a while 11 ago, and it's something that I don't think that has ever been 12 tried in Kerr County. That's a work release program. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. The reason we 14 haven't -- and I've had a lot of judges ask me, "Why don't we 15 do a work release program?" Work release inmates have to be 16 held separately from all other inmates. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't have the space, and 19 that's why we don't. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, and those -- 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If we had the space, maybe we 22 can. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But in those kind of cases, 24 though, couldn't -- in a work release program, you're 25 probably talking a minimum/medium type facility. You're not 1-17-12 wk 45 1 talking about a maximum security -- 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: True. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- facility for that. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But it's not going to take 5 care of my problem, as Wayne stated. If you do a work 6 release program, you know, without taking care of your -- 7 your major or big probation, females and everything, I can 8 promise you, Spencer or several of them, within, you know, 9 the first month, the work release is going to be full of new 10 ones. It's not going to take care of one bit of what we have 11 in jail currently. It's going to be full of the new people, 12 and we're still going to have the other new ones coming in. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, isn't that what's going 14 to happen if you build a brand-new facility? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. And -- and it could, 16 okay? I'm not saying I'm the authority on it. But what I 17 think that you can do is, I can set a cell up in a new 18 facility for a weekend for a work release type deal, all 19 right? Which you could do. But what you also give is the 20 judges the ability and the courts the ability to make 21 probation something other than community service; make 22 something other than a straight-out, you know, six months in 23 the county jail. When they put them on probation, make it 24 mean something, all right? What we're also seeing that -- 25 that Wayne didn't mention is, when I started in this 1-17-12 wk 46 1 business, a third-degree felony theft, to send somebody to 2 the penitentiary, was anything -- any theft over $250. A 3 third-degree felony theft today is anything over $20,000. 4 The State is going to keep -- you know, burglary of a motor 5 vehicle was a third-degree felony theft. It's a Class A 6 misdemeanor now. What we're having -- and this is going to 7 continue, is the State's going to change things, and it's 8 going to keep going. Where it's going -- just what it's 9 doing is putting more and more back onto the counties to take 10 care of, and they're not going to. And every time the 11 Legislature meets, we see more changes going that way. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty, what is the -- you 13 mentioned that you could staff a 96-bed addition with one 14 slot, five employees. What would it cost to staff a 48-unit 15 minimum security? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Separate unit apart from that 17 jail, I think you need two people in it, okay? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it would be two 19 additional -- 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That would be 10. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ten people, two positions. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Around the clock, because it's 23 separate from that jail. I need security; I need somebody 24 that can oversee it and somebody dealing with the inmates 25 one-on-one. 1-17-12 wk 47 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And you would average -- either 2 you or the Auditor; five people equates to 250,000 a year? 3 MS. HARGIS: In the jail, they make at least 30. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They're making 32 before 5 benefits. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, 50-plus. So, five people, 7 so 250,000. And probably the Auditor -- do you have an idea 8 what's the -- to do an $8 million bond issue over 20 years, 9 what are we talking on tax rate? 10 MS. HARGIS: Well, the current one was four point 11 something million, and we're currently paying 542,000. That 12 equates to two pennies. You're going to double that, because 13 you got -- instead of a $4 million issue over 20 years, 14 you've got an $8 million issue, so you're looking at at least 15 750,000. 16 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: 800,000. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 800,000. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Of course, interest on that 19 amount would be a whole lot -- 20 MS. HARGIS: Three and a half to four cents. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Three and a half cents. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's how we're doing it with 23 four-plus. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 10 percent increase on taxes. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Plus it would be -- 1-17-12 wk 48 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Plus the maintenance and 2 operation. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Plus it would be a tax increase 4 to do it, which it puts you in a rollback situation. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, let's talk about 6 something else. (Laughter.) 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, let's talk about 8 something that sounds a lot less. 9 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: What kind of -- do we house 10 Gillespie -- 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. Used to. 12 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: We don't at all any more? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have one out-of-county 14 inmate, and that is the female charged with murder out of 15 Menard, just 'cause that was the change of venue. 16 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: So we're all Kerr County, 17 correct? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. We have been for months; 19 I haven't been able to house -- 20 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- anybody. 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, what -- Rusty, what do 24 you -- what's your next step? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I think -- 1-17-12 wk 49 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't like any of your 2 answers so far today, so -- 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You won't like this one 4 either. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Why do you always have to act 6 like this? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So, I think we need to decide 8 real soon, you know, preferably today, what are we going to 9 do? I've got more documentation. I didn't want to take up 10 the whole thing. I think with the system the way it is, with 11 where we are, I don't think we're going to change the justice 12 system. I think if it does change right away, it's going to 13 hurt us more than help us, because of jail population only is 14 what I'm talking about. I think it will be great, 'cause the 15 system's broken in this county. We need to do something. I 16 think probation needs to have teeth in it to solve our 17 problem long-term, where we don't keep seeing so many 18 V.O.P.'s coming into the jail that nothing happens; they end 19 up on three, four, five probations at one time, okay. 20 Crime's got -- you know, punishment's got to mean something. 21 And so my recommendation truly to this Court is -- 22 we don't have to buy land. To staff it the most economical 23 way that we can with the lowest number of increase in 24 personnel, which is the long-range cost, okay, and where 25 we're going, I think this Court needs to decide, and I really 1-17-12 wk 50 1 think that we need to -- to build a 96-bed addition onto the 2 current jail. And we need to give our architect that 3 possibility, that -- you know, instructions. And, you know, 4 start putting together what that will cost this county in 5 either a bond election, bond issues, however the financing 6 goes. I don't do that. And let's get back those figures so 7 we can know where we're going, what all it's going to take to 8 do that, and some of the other little improvements like the 9 shower replacement or the lights. You know, we've got all 10 those old things. What can we do to help? My current 11 electric bill out there is 10,000 a month. Maybe there's 12 something in some of this upgrades we can do to help that, 13 you know, and get some hard numbers, facts and figures, and 14 then start going to the public, having public meetings if it 15 needs to go on the ballot, or whatever y'all decide. But we 16 need to move forward. 17 This has been an issue going on -- starting in 2002 18 to 2005 to now, and I feel now we're behind the 8-ball, and 19 we're not doing justice to our constituents and our citizens, 20 okay, by giving an adequate place for us to -- like Buster 21 said, these people need to be locked up, and it's up to us to 22 provide a place to do that. Don't count on the State to do 23 it, 'cause they ain't going to. First time since they 24 created state jails, all right, we got told no -- and I 25 already mentioned this once -- a couple months ago on 1-17-12 wk 51 1 bringing state jail inmates to them, because they were full. 2 It's not going to get any better, and if we keep just passing 3 the buck and thinking, you know, it's going to go away, it's 4 not going away. So, my recommendation to this Court is 5 deciding to go forward on a 96-bed deal, and that our 6 architect get his contract done on that, and let's start 7 putting some real figures and real dollars together and start 8 educating the public on that. 9 MR. HENNEKE: If I could ask -- I'll say one thing 10 and ask something. First of all, I'd remind the Court that, 11 you know, we discussed the liaison to work with me in 12 finalizing the agreement with Mr. Gondeck as far as 13 representing the Court, negotiating the terms of -- whoever 14 that is, I'll get with you, if you will let me know who I 15 should work with. But Wayne had also said that part of his 16 proposal in the contract -- what I've been working with him 17 on was for him to formulate a package of recommendations, and 18 I don't -- I've heard Rusty's recommendation and everything 19 that's been said here today, but, Wayne, maybe you could 20 explain a little bit more what you'd be doing, looking at, 21 and how you would do that. 'Cause how can there be any other 22 recommendation other than 96 beds? Or what did you -- or 23 double that, or what are you looking at? What would you come 24 back to us with if you had -- 25 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Other options. 1-17-12 wk 52 1 MR. HENNEKE: -- time to look at it? 2 MR. GONDECK: Well, at this point, obviously, the 3 Sheriff has collected quite a bit of information that goes 4 beyond what the Jail Commission looks at, because they look 5 at the incarceration rate and they look at the population. 6 They do their little calculation, and that's what they -- 7 they come back with. They don't look at the continuing 8 fluctuation of the arrests and the actual type of population 9 within the jail on an ongoing basis. Rusty has done quite a 10 bit of what we typically do in that -- that process. He has 11 gleaned quite a bit of that data gathering that we put 12 together, but then we put it in a packet with diagrams and 13 show what it would take for the 48 addition or a 96 addition. 14 We put numbers with that. And then we look at -- the other 15 thing, you know, that we've discussed here is, you know, the 16 other options of, you know, looking at the longer -- as far 17 as, you know, the upgrades to that, looking at other elements 18 within the facility that jail standards has problems with, 19 such as the showers, you know, that are rusting out, as to 20 what the costs are with that, and put that in a presentable 21 package to present to Commissioners Court. So, that's step 22 one. You know, and it's a little bit more developed than a 23 standard schematic design that you'd have a new facility that 24 -- where you have things a little more clear cut, because it 25 does give you a little bit more options to look at. But 1-17-12 wk 53 1 basically, it's documenting some of the information that's 2 readily available, and packaging that together so that it's 3 presentable. And, secondly, that becomes a public document 4 that, you know, the public can have, that, you know, can be 5 available for the newspapers and everything, so that the 6 information gets disseminated, you know, to the public. And 7 then, typically, what we do from there is put that together 8 in a Power Point presentation or whatever, then take that to 9 meetings, however y'all set that up, to present that 10 information. Hopefully I don't talk too long, and it goes 11 through a pretty quick slide show where people don't nod off 12 too quick. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Question, Mr. Gondeck. Based on the 14 work that you've done with Rusty, County Attorney, other data 15 that you've gathered, your experience, the information that 16 Rusty has insofar as the -- the statistics, the numbers of -- 17 of the various types, do you think you're in a position to 18 put together a package of options to present to this Court 19 that realistically gives us all of the viable options that -- 20 that we have to carry this thing forward? 21 MR. GONDECK: I could be a real smart aleck, Judge, 22 and say sure, if I had a contract. (Laughter.) Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Maybe that's what the language of 24 the contract needs to be, it seems. 25 MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir. The information is there, 1-17-12 wk 54 1 and Rusty and his staff have that basically at their 2 fingertips for us to be able to get our hands on that, put 3 that together. We've got the documents, as y'all saw. We've 4 already transferred that, you know, to our CAD, at least on 5 the schematic level. So, you know, we have been working this 6 already, so we're -- we're very close to being able to 7 package this together to make it in a presentable form to be 8 able to show, you know, where that is at. But, obviously, 9 we'd prefer to have that, you know, in an agreed state 10 that -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I guess my question that just comes 12 to my mind, Wayne, are we in a position to maybe present that 13 to the Court on Monday? 14 MR. HENNEKE: The contract? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 16 MR. HENNEKE: We could be, if I -- if I know who 17 I'm working with on the Court to -- that I can visit with in 18 making the recommendations. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Have you ever heard such a 20 whiner in your life? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's him, isn't it? Aren't you 22 the person? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I'm the liaison with 24 the Sheriff, but what the heck does that mean? I think you 25 ought to work with the County Judge, get two lawyers 1-17-12 wk 55 1 together. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That ought to be fun. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And get this thing done. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want something you can 5 understand? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I better think about 7 that. (Laughter.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, if we're going to -- if 9 we're going to actually do something meaningful to be able to 10 really, seriously consider what our options are, we got to 11 move this thing forward. And like Mr. Gondeck says, the 12 information's there. If we want him to do it, we need to 13 engage him to do it. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think we have to go at 16 least that far. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And we're pretty clear on 19 going there, what "going there" means? Are we talking about 20 the 92 beds, or are we talking about a low-medium security 21 thing like you and I looked at at George -- not Georgetown, 22 but -- 23 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Bastrop. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bastrop. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: We're looking at a whole lot more 1-17-12 wk 56 1 options, Buster. 2 MR. GONDECK: Not to really interrupt you, but I 3 think we do need to address those, because they have been 4 brought up; they've been discussed in court, and I think they 5 need to be addressed within that document. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, you're answering my 7 question. It does need to be. 8 MR. GONDECK: It needs to be addressed. And 9 whether it's a go or no-go, it needs to be addressed why, why 10 we're recommending it to be either go or no-go in that 11 document. Unfortunately, I already presented the draft, and 12 limited both the progress of our work to just that first 13 phase until y'all decide what you're going to do next. We 14 limited the amount of fee structure to that first phase until 15 y'all decide what to do next. So, it is -- the ball would be 16 in y'all's court, you know, that once you get that 17 information, if y'all decided not to go forward, or if the 18 funding didn't, you know, come through or whatever, however 19 y'all decide to fund it, whether it be C.O.'s or bond -- type 20 of bond issue type of financing, that the County would not be 21 obligated, you know, beyond those initial -- that initial 22 phase of work. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, if the -- if it's the 24 consensus of the Court that I work with the County Attorney 25 and the Sheriff, that's fine. 1-17-12 wk 57 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: On behalf -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I know it's your liaison assignment 3 generically, but -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: On behalf of the 5 Commissioners, we bless thee. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Your name is "Consensus" today, huh? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: It was Confucius yesterday; it's 9 Consensus today. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just telling you. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Passing the duties off. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, you know, I don't have 13 a problem with doing this next step, but I do have a problem 14 with making the decision without addressing the courts issue. 15 I mean, I don't -- I don't think -- I personally don't think 16 this is the biggest part of the problem, you know. Until we 17 can get the court -- I can't -- from what I know right now, 18 I'll vote no for the jail, just because the problem is the 19 courts, and I can't see that this fixes that problem. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good point. Excellent 21 point. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just thought -- that's just 23 where I am. I'm looking at the numbers. The jail numbers 24 are -- yeah, we're running right at the -- right at the -- 25 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Peak. 1-17-12 wk 58 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the peak, as high as we can, 2 you know. And if we were running, like, 180 or 175, and over 3 the maximum every time, yes, I'd -- yeah, we'd need a jail. 4 But we're -- you're keeping it right there. The way you're 5 doing it may not be good, you know, but the problem -- when I 6 hear that number of -- what is it, 1,081 criminal cases 7 pending? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, that's just County Court 9 at Law. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Well, even that, I mean, 11 that's the problem. And for a 5-cent tax increase, I think, 12 you know, we could fix that problem for less than that. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But what -- no, I don't -- 14 it's a -- you got two problems. One is we waited this long 15 to do -- to address the jail issue. Now we do have a jail 16 problem. Two is, we waited this long to try and address and 17 get the Legislature to address our court system in Kerr 18 County, as far as the district court. So, no matter what we 19 do now, if you just build onto that jail and don't address 20 the legislative issues and court problems, we won't survive 21 20 years with the 96-bed addition, because it's going to hit 22 in five years; we're going to be overcrowded. You're going 23 to have to -- best I can do, and look at this and everything, 24 Jon, we're going to have to do the jail issue, and we're 25 going to have to do the court issue. It's not just a 1-17-12 wk 59 1 one-phase issue. But addressing just one, if you address 2 just the court, the jail's sunk. We can't handle it. We 3 won't be able to handle it. We won't be able to handle it 4 tomorrow or long-term, okay? You've got to address the jail 5 issue and the court system issue both. That's the only way 6 to solve the problem in our county. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I might go along with that 8 part, but you can't just do the jail. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. 10 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's another issue there. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But you can't -- I mean, you 12 can't go forward without both of them being addressed. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I don't know what -- 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, your D.A.'s, talking 15 about the court issue, they think -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I wasn't saying a word, was 17 I? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. Go ahead. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just feel like that we've 20 tried to address this thing. We've had prosecutors and 21 judges in this room, visiting with them about it. We've 22 created a new court out at the -- at the jail to try to 23 reduce the numbers there. I mean, what -- what is it that 24 this Commissioners Court can do? And I don't -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. I don't -- we have 1-17-12 wk 60 1 tried. But it seems to me that the problem is the geographic 2 boundaries of the two district courts. That's a big part of 3 the problem, and we can't control that, I know. But I -- you 4 know, we have one -- well, we have judges that are traveling 5 all the time. How can they ever hear cases when they're on 6 the road? That's the reality. And until the Legislature 7 fixes that problem, we're wasting our time. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, there's a couple issues. 9 Number one, the redistricting should take place, and this 10 county should get directly involved, whether Kerr County gets 11 its own district court -- which will be opposed, 'cause some 12 D.A.'s or judges would have to move -- or whether they'd 13 split the district a different way. That is one way that we 14 have to -- and that's a legislative way. The only other way 15 that you can also help with that problem is do what -- I hate 16 to say it; hate to agree with him very much, but I've agreed 17 with him twice -- what Judge Tinley has proposed for the last 18 several years, is sink in the money, the funds to do a true 19 video conferencing system for the entire district. That 20 takes care of where a judge can be in -- in, you know, one 21 location and hear all these pretrial motions and try and move 22 cases forward, okay? By being able to have a lot more -- but 23 it's got to be -- technology's got to be a little bit more 24 where the defense attorneys can use it from their office and 25 all that. 1-17-12 wk 61 1 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: What -- again, I know you 2 guys have been here, but what's been the biggest hang-up? 3 Just -- 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Kerr County -- to be honest, 5 Kerr County pays half of the budget for both of those 6 districts. 7 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I understand that. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They're already getting a heck 9 of a deal. Kerr County gets one week a month out of each 10 district, and we pay for half of out of each district. Why 11 should they change anything, okay? The 216th, all the other 12 counties combined don't have as many criminal cases pending 13 as Kerr County does. And the 198th is the same way. Why 14 should those counties want to spend money? And I don't think 15 our citizens want us spending money for those counties. 16 That's blunt. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But if you went to the same 18 voters and -- and, you know -- 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But the tax money is Kerr 20 County tax money that needs to stay here, and it's our jail 21 and our issues. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's our tax money going 23 for building a new jail, too. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's a big -- that's a 1-17-12 wk 62 1 big -- 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Big deal. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It is a big hit. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, if video conferencing 5 would work, that's a whole lot cheaper for us to buy it for 6 every county in the two districts than to go out and -- 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What I'm telling you, that 8 will take care of one phase of this problem. It won't take 9 care -- you're still -- we're still behind the 8-ball. We're 10 still going to spend the money on the jail, and you have to 11 do that to keep -- to make sure that 96 beds lasts us 20 12 years. 13 MR. GONDECK: I think we're missing a little bit 14 here when you're talking about 700 or 800 hundred pending 15 cases, and you have 80 or 90 pretrial felonies in the jail. 16 Most of those people awaiting those cases are not in your 17 jail, so as far as affecting your jail population, it's 18 not -- improving the flow through the judicial process is not 19 going to have that positive of a benefit on the jail 20 population. But even if you removed all your backlog of 21 warrants, the -- what we are seeing right now is more of the 22 downward trend, statewide, of what has been historically a 23 cyclical type of process of the jail population going down, 24 and it will go back up. It's been this way for what we have 25 seen -- I've seen, for the last 30 years. It goes down and 1-17-12 wk 63 1 goes back up. It has not hit with some of the same things 2 that we've seen before. But the people that are -- are 3 projecting this are definitely being very conservative in 4 their -- their projections. The Texas State Data Center is 5 not projecting the same rate of growth that you have been 6 growing over the last 10 years. 7 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's right. 8 MR. GONDECK: And so, when you start reducing that 9 down, and half or less than half of what you're project -- 10 what your growth has been historically, then the potential 11 for -- for growth is going to be even greater. Your -- your 12 criminal activity has not been as much. Now, the Sheriff may 13 want to take the credit for that, and I'm not going to 14 dispute that. But, you know, again, we have -- even in 15 Houston, we've seen a decline in -- in Houston, Harris 16 County, in the number of inmates, the number of crimes, the 17 number of assaultive and serious crimes in Houston. And that 18 has not happened since -- you know, I don't -- almost a 19 decade ago, as far as any type of decrease. But it's back to 20 where the numbers were 10 years ago. So, those are things 21 that are really an anomaly right now that y'all are having to 22 face, and having to make some decisions with really some very 23 poor data. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Wonder what it'd cost us to 25 buy a bus to ship them to Arizona. (Laughter.) 1-17-12 wk 64 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A lot cheaper than that jail. 2 MR. GONDECK: You know, and that's another thing. 3 Once we get some hard figures to be able to look at, you 4 know, with the interest rates they really are looking at now, 5 you know, what we're seeing, you know, at less than four, 6 some places are projected, you know, even to come down less 7 than that on -- the interest rates on some of the C.O.'s and 8 bond issuance that -- and depending on what the dollar amount 9 is and the term. I'm not a financial adviser, but it's 10 just -- it's really great to see that, that possibility. 11 Unfortunately, if you go with a bond, we know that that can't 12 be till November. Then again, we know -- I guess it could 13 be, if they push the primaries back till June. But, anyway, 14 that's -- that's something that, you know, we need to also 15 take into account. When -- when would you be looking at 16 construction? Because there is a possibility that 17 construction costs may start on that trend back upward. So, 18 if you're not looking at it in the shorter term, you're 19 probably looking at a higher cost for construction. Within 20 nine months to a year, it's going to start back up. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think for my part of this, 22 if you could come up with a jail expansion of 96 population 23 for about half of that money, you might have better luck. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I guess the other thing 25 is -- 1-17-12 wk 65 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Some plan that would -- 2 MR. GONDECK: If I could do that right now and meet 3 all the standards and make it economical to operate, I'd 4 probably be selling a whole bunch of those right now. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. This would be your 6 first one. (Laughter.) 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the -- why did we jump over 8 48? Why did we skip a 48-bed increase? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff's the one that did that. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I did that. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Wayne didn't necessarily do that. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just asked a general 13 question. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because we looked at -- we 15 looked at 48 first on the minimum, and then when I started 16 looking at all the case logs, the cases pending, what this 17 county's been, where we were in 2005, where we're going -- we 18 looked at two 48's, okay, outside, minimum-medium. And Wayne 19 told me Jail Commission is going to frown on that, two 20 different buildings the way they are and everything. So, I'm 21 trying to make it work to where we can classify, we can 22 utilize maybe a weekender-type program, we can make probation 23 mean something, so these people aren't just constantly coming 24 back into the jail. You know, make them, one, pay their 25 fines and do that. The best I could come up with for a 1-17-12 wk 66 1 20-year term is what I was also looking at. The life of the 2 bond issue would be 96 beds, you know. And Wayne -- again, 3 with Wayne, if he gets all of this plugged in, if y'all get 4 the contract issue squared away today or whatever, then maybe 5 we can recommend different. But from what I see, that's 6 where I'm at. 7 MR. GONDECK: And one of those things that has been 8 discussed here, and previously, is -- I'm going to back up 9 from that. One of the issues that was brought up is that on 10 the -- going with a 48 minimum, which was the impetus that 11 really got this ball rolling this time around, was that 12 potentially, or probably the lower-risk inmates were not 13 going to be there to keep that facility full, and it was not 14 going to really empty out the necessary beds within the 15 facility that you could backfill to -- to efficiently or 16 effectively use your current facility. In other words, it 17 wasn't going to deal with the real population issues within 18 your jail. So, we started looking at a medium security 19 facility. Medium security does require security perimeter 20 around it, and should be contiguous with the jail, because 21 you've got to maintain that security between the jail and 22 that -- that medium-security facility if it's adjacent to it. 23 So, that means a secure corridor going from one to the other. 24 Not just fenced in, or not just an open breezeway or 25 something going from the jail to a low-risk facility. It 1-17-12 wk 67 1 becomes, you know, hard construction type of facility by 2 looking at the medium security. It was a totally different 3 ballgame as far as dollars and cents and construction-wise. 4 But looking at -- at what the Sheriff was proposing here on 5 the 96, I have not gone back and gone through the numbers 6 with him as far as the 96, 48, on that end of -- of low risk 7 and medium risk, in that vein. We've looked at it generally, 8 but I think that's part of this process, is to look at those 9 options to see if the numbers are there to substantiate a low 10 risk or work release program. Now, does that affect the 11 construction cost, or can that affect the construction cost 12 to build out a portion of that into lesser construction, or 13 to build 48 maximum security or maximum-medium security, and 14 48 low-risk? Maybe it's all within the same building 15 envelope, but different type of interior construction. That 16 cost may -- 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's what I'm trying to 18 say. 19 MR. GONDECK: I'm not sure we're going to get all 20 the way through that in an afternoon. I'm not going to throw 21 out a bunch of numbers today, because -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand. 23 MR. GONDECK: -- I know that they would all get 24 printed in the paper or something, "But the architect said 25 it's only going to cost four and a half million." No. And 1-17-12 wk 68 1 that's where a lot of this goes. And I've got to come back 2 and tell you what the real numbers are. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That's when we give you the vest. 4 MR. GONDECK: That's right. Because the architect 5 is the one that makes it cost that much. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The Sheriff will give us all 7 the ones that are expired. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You got that right. 9 MR. GONDECK: Give you the ones with the holes in 10 them. 11 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Past three years old. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not certified any more. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I got some that are about 14 eight years old. We'll make sure y'all could have those. 15 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: All right. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: What's the pleasure of the Court on 17 moving this thing forward? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to go to the 19 next step. I agree with Bruce on that. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Do you want me to do it? Do 21 you want Buster to do it? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Makes no difference. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We want you to do it. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Why don't y'all do it 25 together? 1-17-12 wk 69 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We could all do it together. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Y'all can hold hands and do 3 it together. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Go to Buzzie's. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, have some tea. 7 MR. HENNEKE: Judge, I would propose -- I'll send 8 you a copy of the contract today. I'll visit with you on it 9 tomorrow. And then to save Mr. Gondeck a trip, maybe we 10 could set up a phone -- a phone conference Thursday or 11 Friday, and I'm sure we could have it on Monday's agenda. 12 It's -- it's a standard contract; I just need to visit with 13 somebody on the Court on it before we put it on the agenda. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 15 MR. GONDECK: All right. I'll just offer that I am 16 not available Monday, if you need me, because I have to be in 17 Mitchell County Commissioners Court, and the distance between 18 the two makes it a little bit difficult, being as they're 19 about four hours apart. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Mitchell County. Is that Colorado 21 City? 22 MR. GONDECK: Colorado City. It's a little bit too 23 far apart. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We'll take care of it. 25 MR. GONDECK: Theirs is at 9 o'clock in the 1-17-12 wk 70 1 morning. I don't want to say that I can make it back by the 2 afternoon. 3 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: You wouldn't. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Seems like a phone conference 5 could be hooked up. 6 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Telephone conference. You 7 could do it. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If they would have listened 9 to us, we'd have that thing in place by now. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you, Wayne. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Appreciate it. 12 MR. GONDECK: Thank you. I appreciate you. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess thank you to the 14 Sheriff. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, I'm not going to ask you if 16 you have anything more, because we've got another issue to 17 talk about here, the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center. 18 That's you two guys. Who's going to run with the ball here? 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I guess I'll -- I'm running. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You are. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm running with the ball on 22 this one. In looking at all aspects of it, the cost of the 23 building -- the estimated cost of the concrete, and then 24 finish out and all that, I really think that we need to look 25 at a million dollars. 1-17-12 wk 71 1 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: One million? 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: One million dollars. 3 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: This is show barn, right? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: For show barn. 5 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the building, the finish 7 out, and the concrete. That's the whole -- everything, whole 8 ball of wax. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Does not include the portion in the 10 front for the -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Does not include the exhibit 12 hall; that's a separate phase. 13 MS. HARGIS: What about architecture -- 14 architectural, all of that? 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I believe so. We've -- Jon 16 has some expertise on that that I don't have. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there's -- you know, 18 and I haven't looked at the state laws on this, but there -- 19 can't we still hire a building -- what is it? A -- what do 20 you call it? 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Design-to-build. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Design-to-build. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is the type of thing that 25 lends itself to that. The buildings are pre-engineered. 1-17-12 wk 72 1 Generally, most of the companies that we go with, you know, 2 whether -- have in-house engineers. That can go along with 3 it, and I don't know -- and I think the -- I think the 4 architectural part of it is mostly done. It's layout and 5 it's barn. And I think we know kind of where bathrooms and 6 things like that would go. I just don't think we need to 7 hire an architect for 6 percent, 7 percent. I think doing a 8 design-to-build makes a lot more sense. 9 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: And it's -- Bruce, that's on 10 the whole 72, or is that -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, just on the 50 -- just on 12 the show barn. 13 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 14 MS. HARGIS: You can do that. I just haven't done 15 it in a long time. I did do one; it's been a while back. 16 But we'll need some Commissioners to be real dedicated to it, 17 that's the only thing. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 19 MS. HARGIS: When you do that, make sure you're 20 right on top of it. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it may be worthwhile with 22 the County on some other projects to hire a -- just a third 23 party, an inspector-type project manager to go in and do a 24 lot of that. But it's -- you know, I just -- and maybe it's 25 cheaper to hire an architect, but I'm -- you know. 1-17-12 wk 73 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't think so. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This isn't -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're talking about -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A barn. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. What we really have to 6 get engineered is the slab, and you have to have soil tests 7 and stuff like that to know what -- how much you got to pull 8 out, how much we prepare for -- you know, how much we add 9 back for the -- the -- 10 MS. HARGIS: I think they also have to sign off. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I've already got with 12 Leonard, got an estimate from him, because that's what I 13 foresee us doing, is letting Road and Bridge do all the site 14 preparation. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: He did a fantastic job out there on 16 the annex. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And his -- his estimates 18 for -- I told him I figured we were going to have to cut out 19 at least 6 inches, probably a foot, to go back in with a foot 20 of compacted base, just to estimate the cost of that. It 21 could be more or less, but I felt like that was a pretty good 22 way to look at it. Because we kind of know what's under 23 there. He's saying $5,000 for material. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: You know how much he excavated and 25 put back in and compacted, stabilized base at the annex? 1-17-12 wk 74 1 Minimum 6 feet. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, I know. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Soil test every time. And -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, the building -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We don't have near the 6 problem at the Ag Barn we had -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You really only have to worry 8 about where the footings are going, where the piers are 9 going. The inside -- the whole inside piece is huge; big 10 expanse of concrete. So, anyway, my question is partially -- 11 I can see one of our stock show representatives in the 12 audience. At what point -- I mean, I'm committed to go with 13 the project, but I'm not sure I'm committed for a million 14 dollars. Is there -- how much can the stock show -- do they 15 think they can realistically raise? Have you even looked 16 into it, talked about it as a board? Or -- I mean, I know 17 you've kind of been waiting for us to come up with a plan, 18 'cause it's hard to go out and talk to people until you know 19 what you're trying to raise money for. 20 MR. REEVES: If you ask me today for a dollar 21 amount or percentage of the cost, I'm only one vote, and I 22 can't tell you. I can tell you if you'll give us till 23 Sunday, then we'll start 100 percent on fundraising for every 24 penny that we can raise. We do know, in addition to the 25 costs to put up the buildings, pens, panels, additional 1-17-12 wk 75 1 space, equipment like that, we do have some money put back 2 that has been given to us over the years specifically for 3 equipment purchases. We've tried to purchase what equipment 4 we need on a pay-as-you-go system, so we've never had to dip 5 into that. Is it a large amount? No. But we -- we have 6 been talking while we've been working, getting ready for the 7 show, that as soon as we can look at a drawing similar to 8 what we have where we can sit down with some of the companies 9 and say, "Okay, tell us how much we need in pen space, how 10 much we need in other areas," then we can come up with, you 11 know, how much we're going to need there. To answer your 12 question, Commissioner, I can't tell you, just for myself, 13 how much we can commit to this, but we are willing to do 14 whatever it takes to have a new facility by this time next 15 year. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bruce, what's the construction 17 time on the building? Do you have an idea? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It takes 10 weeks to get a 19 building, from what I was told, once you order it. 20 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Ten weeks. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Construction part's not a big 22 deal; you're looking at 45 days, two months tops. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, six months of construction 24 of the building, and then you have the -- anyway, what I'm 25 thinking is, I mean, if we could -- I guess what would -- 1-17-12 wk 76 1 just to kind of brainstorm a little bit, how do you feel 2 about if we went ahead pulled the trigger on a building, 3 but -- and did the concrete later? Or -- or concrete part of 4 it and, you know, basically not have a completely finished 5 building, but have a building that would be usable? And, you 6 know -- I mean, and what I'm speaking to really is that we 7 need your help financially, but I don't know that we can 8 wait -- 9 MR. REEVES: Till we get -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- till you have all your money 11 on-hand. But we might be able to do it in six months. That 12 might be enough time, if y'all had six months to do 13 fundraising. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Here's my thought on it. I 15 think that, you know, we've been talking about this for 16 years. And until we take the first step -- and I believe 17 that we take the first step and we do our very best to fund 18 the show barn, and give them time to raise the money for the 19 exhibit hall, because it's going to cost real close to the 20 same amount of money as what we're talking about. It's going 21 to be less square footage, but going to be more amenities in 22 it. 23 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And so -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I agree with that approach. 'Cause 1-17-12 wk 77 1 there's going to be a Phase 2. 2 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Of the show barn. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: And when we step up to make our 4 commitment, I think that's going to trigger a resolve in the 5 other folks. And in fairness to the stock show people, 6 really the first time they really had anything to look at was 7 at that appreciation dinner, which was what, a week ago 8 Saturday? 9 MR. REEVES: Couple weeks ago, yes, sir. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: And that's really the first time 11 that there was anything there that was tangible for you guys, 12 and the other supporters that you had there. 13 MR. REEVES: Well, outside -- outside the group 14 that has been working with the Court on this, as far as our 15 general board and the supporters from the show, I will say, 16 very favorable comments. 17 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Right. 18 MR. REEVES: I noticed Commissioner Oehler talked 19 to several people, and I believe you did too, Commissioner. 20 And then I had several comments. This past week, you know, 21 I've had to answer maybe as many questions about what we're 22 going to have as what we're going to do this week. So -- 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 24 MR. REEVES: So, I think the support is very 25 positive. But, as you said, it takes a little while to get 1-17-12 wk 78 1 our wheels rolling, and -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A little bit of a priority this 3 week. 4 MR. REEVES: To be honest, I kind of appreciate the 5 Sheriff taking so long; I haven't been inundated with 6 questions or calls. So, if we need to stay a little while 7 longer -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You took a nap while that was 9 going on? 10 MR. REEVES: So -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, I think that would be the 12 way I -- because people, I think, are waiting to see -- 13 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's right. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- if the County's actually 15 going to do this. And we have -- you know, I think we've 16 done a pretty good job with managing the facility and keeping 17 it up and all that sort of thing. But until we make a 18 commitment to do this, I don't think it's ever going to 19 happen. If they -- if we just piecemeal it, say, "Oh, we're 20 not going to do this part or that part; we'll wait," you 21 know, these kind of things tend to never get done. And -- 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I tell you what, 23 Commissioner, I agree with you totally in what you're doing 24 and what's going on here as far as a recommendation. I think 25 another thing that's really positive here -- and I appreciate 1-17-12 wk 79 1 all the hard work you've been doing on getting an estimate on 2 that -- on that first phase, and the potential part of that 3 Phase 2. You got to remember our '010 and '08 figures, and 4 then we had our revised figures. I mean, we were talking 5 three and a half million dollars. So, to come back and to 6 look at a million on this one phase, and to potentially look 7 at the same cost, like you talked about the amenities being 8 that other -- I mean, we're showing, you know, again, half 9 the cost of what we were tentatively looking at, and building 10 a facility for the next 20 or 30 years. And I agree with 11 you; I think the community wants to see folks stepping 12 forward, and I think this is a figure that's very, very good. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think it's, you know -- 14 Jeannie? 15 MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You came up with -- the other 17 day we talked about the money left over in the capital funds. 18 MS. HARGIS: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You came up with somewhere 20 around $920,000. 21 MS. HARGIS: Well, we committed in the budget 729 22 to other projects, and some of those have already been 23 bought. You do have 188,561. Part that is -- 110 is left 24 for the Ag Barn. But you can use -- I mean, some of that 25 could go to software a little bit, maybe 20,000 to software 1-17-12 wk 80 1 programs, and the rest of it would be 168 towards the Ag 2 Barn. 3 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's off the 2008 loan, 4 correct? 5 MS. HARGIS: That's off the 2008, yes. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What about the 2010? 7 MS. HARGIS: The 2010, we only had the tables and 8 chairs and trucks. We really didn't have any extra amount, 9 'cause remember, we hadn't spent anything even in the '08 10 issue, so it wasn't until after we sold the 2010 that we 11 started actually working using that other money. So, you -- 12 you were -- it was my impression you were still looking for 13 grant money to match that money before I started forward. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I think that that -- 15 you know, that will happen in time. But -- so -- so how much 16 do we have that's absolutely not designated to be spent in 17 what you have in the '08 and the '10? 18 MS. HARGIS: 110 -- well, in the '08 -- I mean in 19 the 2010, the 729 -- there's still 358,000 left there, and 20 the construction of the annex. And I didn't print out -- 21 unfortunately, I didn't print out the other printout that -- 22 where we reallocated this money. We have 114,000 that was 23 airport capital. I know that amount of money is -- is open 24 for y'all to do what you want to do with. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Could you give me a total? 1-17-12 wk 81 1 MS. HARGIS: Well, I -- 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't go around the horn. I 3 want the total. 4 MS. HARGIS: Unfortunately, I didn't bring that 5 other sheet where we reallocated it during budget, but we had 6 729. I've got to look back to see if Road and Bridge has 7 already bought their trucks. And Rusty already spent some of 8 the money that went to the jail; that was 64,000. And 9 then -- 10 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Reallocated 747,000. 11 MS. HARGIS: Right. Do you have that? 12 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I do have it. 13 MS. HARGIS: I had phone calls up until the minute. 14 Okay. This was 747. We gave I.T. 153, 181. That went -- 15 that's pretty much for the next two years for him. You have 16 40,000 that you could take out of there for the Kerrville 17 fire station. That's up to y'all. The next 64, which was 18 the capital items, that -- I believe Rusty already allocated 19 most of that. Plus 150 you can't -- and then 184, so the 20 really only unallocated amount in this issue is the 40,000, 21 and so you're at about 43,000 out of the 2010 issue. Unless 22 you go back and pick up the 114 for -- 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll throw up my hands, 24 Buster. Do you want to ask her? 25 MS. HARGIS: I didn't -- you know, about 175 out of 1-17-12 wk 82 1 the 2010. 175 out of the 2010, and 188 -- it depends on what 2 you want to do with the other one. That's 188 left. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We want to leave that 4 $40,000 for the fire station there. 5 MS. HARGIS: Well, that's why it's hard for me. I 6 can't tell y'all what to do with -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I -- 8 MS. HARGIS: -- these items. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have a problem. I 10 mean, the airport's going to have some expenditures -- 11 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's right. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- coming up, and where this 13 money is shifted to that -- we're getting ready to do a bond 14 issue or a C.O., it looks like, anyway, so I don't know that 15 it makes a whole lot of difference. I think it makes more 16 sense to me to put all the money that's left over in the Ag 17 Barn, and then start anew on -- 18 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: On the other. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- on the other ones. So, kind 20 of extend the timeline on those a little bit that are not as 21 fixed. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I agree with that. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That was my hope. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, everything that's not 1-17-12 wk 83 1 committed, sweep up, designate it for this, you know, 2 including the airport, including your 40,000 for the fire 3 station, and then immediately put that back on the new C.O. 4 so we're able to -- otherwise, we have to start with the 5 arbitrage issue of having run it up against a timeline that 6 you got to spend it on the project that you said you're going 7 to spend it on. And, you know -- 8 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: We've set the time. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have set the time, five 10 years. 11 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: So, we have the 188 and the 12 175, so we could actually do $372,000. 13 MS. HARGIS: Well, if you reallocate like he's 14 saying, then you would actually -- 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's What I'm asking. 16 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: That's the total. 17 MS. HARGIS: Well, but keep in mind, I'm not -- I 18 don't want to say which items you reallocate. You have to 19 tell me. 20 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Right. 21 MS. HARGIS: And I'll be -- if you just take these 22 sheets and circle which ones that I can reallocate and 23 cannot, or do I just reallocate all of it? We spend this 24 money and then go with a new issue for -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Reallocate everything that's not 1-17-12 wk 84 1 already firmly committed. 2 MS. HARGIS: Okay. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That means anything that Rusty 4 hasn't spent. Or -- 5 MS. HARGIS: Road and Bridge has already spent 184. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: So if it hasn't been spent; i.e., 7 the fire station, even though it was committed for that, 8 include that. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Then we'll reallocate. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll give the 40 back out of the 11 next drill. Trust us. 12 MS. HARGIS: I know. The cars -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You were okay till you said 14 that. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was just fine until you 16 said, "Trust us." (Laughter.) 17 MS. HARGIS: If y'all give me an opportunity, let 18 me reallocate this sheet according to what I'm hearing from 19 y'all today. I'll bring it to court on Monday. You can 20 decide whether that's what you like or you don't like, and we 21 can move it around one more time. How's that? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That sounds good. 23 MS. HARGIS: I do need to include some items in 24 this next issue that we need to hurry the next issue up for, 25 and that is the dam project has to be paid by the 1st of 1-17-12 wk 85 1 June. We got a letter from them saying that 60 days prior to 2 the letting from TexDOT -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I knew that was coming. 4 That's -- that's why we're having to do that in the next 5 issue. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 7 MS. HARGIS: I'm -- but I'm just saying we need to 8 hurry a little bit. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I understand that. I'm not 10 dragging my feet. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you have -- have you heard 12 from everybody except the Court -- or everybody but me? 13 MS. HARGIS: I -- I've heard from everybody that 14 basically wants vehicles and things of that nature, 15 replacement. I've heard from those departments that really 16 don't have that kind of stuff. I haven't really heard very 17 much at all. The courts have asked for a few capital items 18 that really don't amount to very much. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, let's put that on Monday's 20 agenda so we can add things -- fire station back in, talk 21 about the airport a little bit, you know, you guys -- 22 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Cade Loop. 23 MS. HARGIS: I haven't heard from any of y'all. I 24 do need to -- between now and then, if you'll just e-mail me 25 any additional items that we could -- that you think might 1-17-12 wk 86 1 come in, like are there any more dam repairs that we might be 2 thinking about? 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We don't have any more dams 4 to repair. 5 MS. HARGIS: Well, I was just using that for an 6 example. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, dam. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, we've already done 9 that, so whatever's left there we put in the pot. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why don't you do me a favor 11 and define "capital improvements" from your point of view -- 12 from an auditor's point of view. 13 MS. HARGIS: A capital improvement is something 14 that is depreciable for at least three years or better, 15 preferably, and has a -- a life of at least three years or 16 better. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is it a fixed asset? 18 MS. HARGIS: It should be a fixed asset. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But a computer's a capital 21 item. I wouldn't -- in my mind, that's not a fixed asset. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it is -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or the cars for the Sheriff. 25 MS. HARGIS: And cars for the Sheriff are fixed 1-17-12 wk 87 1 assets. The computers, the way we purchase them in bulk, 2 becomes fixed assets. If we purchased them on an individual 3 basis, they would not be, but because we purchase them in 4 bulk. And our annual -- I believe it's around 75,000 or 5 80,000 a year that we need because of the programs that we 6 have. And we're -- we're -- you know, he's very carefully 7 turning them over every three years, but we have a lot of 8 computers out there, and we have to change software. 9 Remember, we also gave him that money; we have to upgrade to 10 the new operating system. We finally have to get with that 11 program. That's a little bit more costly. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sheriff -- where are we on all 13 the radio upgrades for the Sheriff? 14 MS. HARGIS: That's another -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Towers and all that stuff? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's an issue that I think 17 we're going to end up having to address within -- probably in 18 the next five years. 'Cause at one of the meetings today in 19 San Antonio, they're looking at going to 700 to 800. The 20 digital deadline -- if they go with the digital type 21 deadline, we're looking at probably the 1.5 to $2 million 22 expenditure of upgrading the radio system. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No wonder we can't build 24 anything; the Sheriff keeps using it all. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're talking about a 1-17-12 wk 88 1 moving target, though. This radio system is the biggest 2 moving target known to mankind. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Always has been. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If they went statewide with 5 the -- if they went statewide with the 700, which there is 6 some consensus; L.C.R.A. is big involved in that. And what 7 you would do is, they put up the sites to do a regional deal, 8 okay? And then we just pay for equipment, and they pay for 9 sites. That would be a lot less expensive. But what they've 10 found now that we've heard in the last few weeks is all the 11 federal grant funds and everything else that were coming are 12 gone; they aren't happening, okay? So it doesn't look like 13 that project is going to be able to really go forward or get 14 any teeth in it, so you're looking at more of the 15 conventional VHF, but under a digital system, which we would 16 have to replace everything we got on those towers. 17 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I got a question here. We've 18 talked about ag; we've talked about Cade Loop, the dams, 19 Center Point infrastructure project. Also, is the $25,000 20 grant for Kerrville South Wastewater, Phase 5, is that 21 additional money that we can roll into this as well? For a 22 matching grant as well. That was one thing I was thinking 23 about. And then Center Point; we know that we're going to 24 look at the Clean Water State Revolving Fund and the EDAP. 25 Most of that's going to be taken care of -- most of it we 1-17-12 wk 89 1 think might be done through the grants we're hoping for. But 2 are we still talking about -- if the Clean Water deal is 3 doing the application and that's where we're going through, I 4 mean, do we still need to -- what's our budget amount we -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: We need 450,000. 6 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: I was going to say half a 7 million. 8 MS. HARGIS: We need 450. If we do get the 9 Kerrville South, probably should set aside 25,000 for that. 10 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: 25,000. This is a half a 11 million at least, okay. 12 MS. HARGIS: So -- because we're already rolling on 13 those grants as we speak. 14 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Right. 15 MS. HARGIS: The remaining of the grants, I mean, I 16 think that the grants in general are going to -- because of 17 the justice system and the state of Texas, both the adult and 18 the juvenile are taking some big changes. The juvenile, I 19 think, is going a little bit -- is a bigger change than we 20 actually anticipated. The person that was anticipating -- 21 that was in charge of the juvenile probation program is no 22 longer there. The person who is in charge of the jail system 23 is now in charge of the juvenile probation. So, we may not 24 get the grants there that we have in the past. I think we -- 25 we're going to have to -- it's a lot of things to look at 1-17-12 wk 90 1 down the line. But right now, I think we -- we line out what 2 we know. And keep in mind that when we're looking at what we 3 have left to pay, this year we have to pay three issues. We 4 have to pay off the 1994 -- 1992 issue, which is 500-some 5 thousand; 541, 542. Then we have to pay our annual payment 6 on the '08 and the 2010. Next, we're -- we pay off the '08 7 issue, but then what happens is the 2010 issue escalates. 8 So, the 2010 escalation in 2013 -- 2013 we actually drop down 9 to a million, 111. But then the next year we go back up to a 10 million, one-something, almost a million, 189. And then we 11 take a bigger jump; we go to one million, 236, and then one 12 million, 289. So, we're actually going down and then back 13 up. So, we already committed out to 2016 to a million, two, 14 so we have to smooth this -- these things in with what we 15 have. 16 So, when we're looking at these priorities, we may 17 have to move them around just a little bit. And I would 18 suggest that once you decide what we're going to do, we ask 19 Bob Henderson to come back in here. There is a possibility 20 of -- of refunding some of this new -- in the 2010 and making 21 that work a little bit better for us. Then we may end up 22 having to refund a little bit of that issue and smooth that 23 out a little bit. 'Cause I think what we are -- our goal is 24 to keep things fairly level here. Now, if we throw in the 25 additional 8 million over a seven-year period, I think that 1-17-12 wk 91 1 would be pretty tough. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Oh. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: It's going to have to be a separate 4 issue. 5 MS. HARGIS: So, I'm going to just roll with our 6 normal stuff and get back to you. 7 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'd just like to see us spend 9 some on the good folks for a change, instead of on the 10 criminals. 11 COMMISSIONER OVERBY: Amen. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Have we about wrung it out? 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Tim doesn't -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Tim's got on his hat; he's ready to 15 go home. 16 MR. BOLLIER: I got to go to the barn; I got 17 business. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Strike him out. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: You and Bob got work to do out 20 there. 21 MR. BOLLIER: Me and Bob got work. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Bob does. 23 MR. REEVES: Yes. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Be quiet, Sheriff. Anybody on the 25 Court have anything else on this workshop that they want to 1-17-12 wk 92 1 bring out? We'll be adjourned. 2 (Commissioners Court workshop adjourned at 3:40 p.m.) 3 - - - - - - - - - - 4 5 6 STATE OF TEXAS | 7 COUNTY OF KERR | 8 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 9 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 10 official reporter for the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 11 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 12 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 31st day of January, 13 2012. 14 15 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 16 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 17 Certified Shorthand Reporter 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1-17-12 wk