1 2 3 4 5 6 7 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 8 Workshop 9 Monday, February 11, 2013 10 1:30 p.m. 11 Commissioners' Courtroom 12 Kerr County Courthouse 13 Kerrville, Texas 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 TOM MOSER, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X February 11, 2013 2 PAGE 3 1. Discussion regarding the Open Meetings Act and Open Records Act 3 4 2. Discussion regarding improvements to and plans 5 for various Kerr County facilities, including the Hill Country Youth Event Center 11 6 --- Adjourned 39 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, February 11, 2013, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop 2 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let me call to order a Kerr 7 County Commissioners Court workshop posted and scheduled for 8 this date and time Monday, February 11th, 2013, at 1:30 p.m. 9 It's a few minutes past that time now. The workshop was 10 agendaed for a discussion regarding Open Meetings Act and 11 Open Records Act, and further, discussion regarding 12 improvements to and plans for various Kerr County facilities, 13 including the Hill Country Youth Event Center. First item 14 regarding Open Meetings Act and Open Records Act, I believe 15 the County Attorney made the arrangements for what's about to 16 occur. Do you want to make any opening remarks? 17 MR. HENNEKE: I'll defer to Commissioner Baldwin. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll make some comments, 19 Judge. Then I'll introduce the County Attorney. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, sure. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But we want to thank you 22 folks for coming and being part of this. This is -- we 23 consider it just a refresher course that we need every once 24 in a while, and we thank -- thank you guys for showing up and 25 being here and part of it. Now, I have to apologize up front 2-11-13 wk 4 1 that we still, from this morning -- we still have an open 2 agenda and have some issues and items to take care of later 3 on, as well as other scheduled meetings immediately after 4 this one, so we're not going to get into a huge question and 5 answer thing. So, the County Attorney has been kind enough 6 to provide a video for us that's made by the Attorney 7 General, which is the head guy regarding this issue, and so I 8 guess, just like all of us, we're just going to have to pay 9 attention to it and -- and, you know, I think you provide 10 them an address for them to -- or a website for them to find 11 these videos? 12 MR. HENNEKE: Yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, do you want to add 14 something to the comments? 15 MR. HENNEKE: Well, briefly, thank y'all for being 16 here. I mean, you look at the Open Meetings Act; it's part 17 of open government and fulfilling our duty to the public. 18 And the Attorney General of Texas has put together some 19 resources that I rely on on a daily basis, including this 20 video talking about Open Meetings Act, and there's also one 21 about the Open Records Act. It's a critical component in how 22 we conduct business, and not only just from the public 23 interest, but also from the fact that it's the law, and that 24 there's also some serious penalties and -- and repercussions 25 that arise out of not following the Open Meetings Act or the 2-11-13 wk 5 1 Open Records Act. But I think it's a great idea to have a 2 refresher, and I'm glad to be part of this. So, glad to tell 3 anybody afterwards where this video came from, as well as 4 some other resources that are out there, and always willing 5 to help any way I can. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 7 (Open Meetings Act video was shown.) 8 - - - - - - - - - - 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It really didn't get into 10 the penalty part of it. 11 MR. HENNEKE: Not too much. I mean, you know, 12 the -- I guess the biggest general risk from violating the 13 Open Meetings Act -- and I see this -- I mean, how we know 14 about this from the Open Meetings Act is because there's, you 15 know, Court of Appeals cases where lawsuits have been filed 16 over violations of the Open Meetings Act, and a year, two 17 years, three years after the fact, the Court of Appeals is 18 finding that there was a violation and voiding the action of 19 the governmental body that was taken years ago. You see that 20 in competitive bidding, you know, procurement contracts and 21 construction things and, you know, contentious issues where 22 somebody does go to court. So, the big risk is, you know, 23 you wipe out all the time that you spent doing something and 24 have to go back and do it again. Now, there is civil 25 litigation that can be initiated for a person enforcing Open 2-11-13 wk 6 1 Meetings Act, and I think something personal to all of us is 2 that there's criminal penalties associated with individual 3 members of the body. 4 As the adviser for the Commissioners Court here, I 5 really come at this from the perspective that this being the 6 public's business, there needs -- I look at it from 7 everything is presumed to be public, unless there's a reason 8 that keeps it private. And in coming at it from that 9 perspective, always try to drive something in the public 10 arena, knowing that it might be a contentious issue, it may 11 be something that's subject to criticism, but that's the 12 whole purpose of these laws that we have to act within. I'll 13 stop talking in a minute, but I think the last part that they 14 said about walking a quorum, that's probably the most common 15 issue that comes up, especially with smaller governmental 16 bodies where you have a five -- you know, five-person body 17 like us five sitting right here. And say I talk to Tracy 18 about an issue, which is fine; the two of us can talk about 19 an issue without having to be in public -- a public meeting. 20 But as soon as Tracy talks to Robbin about that same issue, 21 then you're really starting to present a problem. 22 And -- and I may not know that Tracy intended to 23 talk to Robbin about the same issue, but when you're up in 24 the witness stand in court defending your action and it comes 25 out that, yes, I talked to Tracy about apples and oranges, 2-11-13 wk 7 1 and then Tracy talked to Robbin about apples and oranges, 2 you're put in a position of having to justify that, and 3 subjecting yourself to, you know, some penalties. The City 4 of Austin recently got a black eye over the Open Meetings 5 Act, and I think they got a little bit too casual with it. 6 And two things that came out, not that I think that anyone 7 here local would do, but just in showing a modern example, 8 is, number one, during their City Council meetings, City 9 Council members would text each other about what was going on 10 during the meeting. And it was very embarrassing when the 11 texts were revealed, because the texts ranged from, you know, 12 "This person speaking is an idiot; I wish they'd shut up. 13 I'm so tired of hearing from such-and-such person," to, "How 14 are you going to vote on this agenda item? I'm just curious 15 before we cast our votes." Neither of which was appropriate. 16 And in the same -- the same investigation, it also 17 came out that what the Austin City Council was doing pre-City 18 Council meetings is the City Manager was polling all the 19 Council members. Each of the Council members were 20 individually going, before the meeting, into the City 21 Manager's office, who was figuring out where everybody was on 22 all the votes and getting all the votes counted in advance of 23 the meeting. You know, the City Attorney -- or the County 24 Attorney for Travis County, I think -- I think a stern 25 warning was the result. But, you know, the criminal 2-11-13 wk 8 1 penalties that were associated with that I don't think makes 2 that worth any kind of risk. So, thank y'all for being here. 3 I think this is important, and thank you for -- Commissioner 4 Baldwin, for organizing this. And I'm always available to 5 share my resources or -- or to discuss things. 6 And the last thing I promise I'll say is, I refer 7 most -- most commonly to the Open Meetings Handbook published 8 by the Attorney General's office. It's on their website, a 9 free PDF; they update it regularly. In addition to having 10 statutes, it's annotated with, you know, Open Record and open 11 -- Open Meeting opinions -- letter opinions that have been 12 published, and other resources that answer a lot of the 13 questions that y'all may have. Thank you, Commissioners. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. As we move 15 through the year, occasionally I think that we're going to 16 occasionally have these kind of things, just brief meetings 17 on certain topics and issues. And you'll be notified, just 18 like you always have, through -- I assume everybody's on our 19 mailing list. If not, don't add them, 'cause we want to do 20 everything in secret anyway. (Laughter.) So, thank you very 21 much. God bless you. 22 COMMISSIONER MOSER: One thing, if I may. There 23 was -- some commissioners courts, to be able to shorten the 24 time in physical -- in days for 72-hour notice, they'll post 25 it on a board outside the courthouse. Now, that -- that, I 2-11-13 wk 9 1 guess, then enables you to use weekends and stuff like that, 2 if that's a place to post such notices. That was discussed 3 in Austin the other day. 4 MR. HENNEKE: It may. I mean, I haven't -- we do 5 it correctly with how we do it, so -- 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah. 7 MR. HENNEKE: -- there may be other ways of -- of 8 doing that. I can look into that, Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER MOSER: No, I was just -- don't -- 10 don't bother. I think they said they put it on a, you know, 11 glass-enclosed facility where anybody could have access to it 12 during the weekend. But I'm not suggesting we do that. It 13 just -- it would probably have to be something that you do as 14 a normal course of business. You wouldn't just do it for -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we do that. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right out here. 18 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right out there? So, 19 therefore, if that's the place it's posted, then it doesn't 20 have to be 72 hours, work days. It can be weekends. 21 MS. PIEPER: Commissioner Moser, we do post it 22 outside, as well as on the website. We post it Friday 23 afternoons prior to the meeting on Monday. 24 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. So -- 25 MR. HENNEKE: That's how we use weekends as part of 2-11-13 wk 10 1 the time. 2 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah, okay. Good. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Anything else from the 4 Court? Thank y'all. God bless America. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate you being here for this 6 portion of the workshop. Thank you very much. If any of you 7 came for only that portion, why, feel free to leave. If you 8 want to stay, feel free to do that also. Okay, what's 9 Court's pleasure? We have two options available now, and 10 that is to continue the workshop or to convene a special 11 meeting on a separate posting for 2:45. It's about that time 12 now. We may have some -- I had indicated to some folks that 13 the -- that the facilities issue was to be considered at 14 3 o'clock. And -- 15 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: So why don't we go ahead and recess 17 the -- the workshop, and then we'll come back and take up the 18 other portion of the workshop agenda. 19 (The Commissioners Court workshop was closed at 2:45 p.m., and an open meeting and executive 20 session were held, the transcripts of which are contained in separate documents.) 21 - - - - - - - - - - 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I will bring us back into open or 23 public session. It is 3:47, and now I'm going to reconvene 24 the workshop. The remaining item on the workshop is the 25 discussion regarding improvements to and plans for various 2-11-13 wk 11 1 Kerr County facilities, including the Hill Country Youth 2 Event Center. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He's coming. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Hmm? 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Peter's coming. Is that who 6 you're looking for? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, I was looking to get 8 that off of my table in there, bring that in here, the big 9 one. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Oh. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The subject under discussion is more 12 directly Phase 2, as we sometimes call it, to the Hill 13 Country Youth Event Center out at what we all know as the Ag 14 Barn complex. That is a new event hall, which is to be -- 15 just set it right down there -- be used in connection with 16 the new show barn, and show barn being 48,000 square feet. 17 The proposed footprint that we have -- and as far as I know, 18 everybody in this room has probably seen it, but it's right 19 down here in front of you -- is approximately 28,000 square 20 feet for the event hall, which would consist of approximately 21 26,000 square feet of open meeting/gathering event space, 22 2,000 square feet on the west end for support services, 23 including storage, restrooms, catering kitchen, things of 24 that nature, with on the west side, in the existing 25 concession stand area, another area of restrooms, concession 2-11-13 wk 12 1 stand, catering kitchen and so forth. 2 The footprint that we have now shows a temporary 3 divider that can come right down the middle so that you can 4 have two events going at the same time. The sit-down seating 5 capacity for a -- for an event is approximately 850 on either 6 side, for a total of approximately 1,700 people. That's 7 probably a little cozy, but even at 1,500, that's 8 considerably better than any public -- publicly available 9 facility in the area. The purpose of the workshop here today 10 was to allow interested persons, groups, or stakeholders to 11 voice their support or lack of support, as the case may be, 12 for this proposed Phase 2, and/or any suggestions or thoughts 13 they may have with regard to the proposed footprint or 14 modifications that might be made to it. The stock show 15 people, we've got two of the folks that have been here with 16 us through thick and thin from day one, Steve and Bob, and 17 they've -- they've been involved with it for a pretty good 18 while. Roy Walston, our Ag agent, is here also. Any 19 particular thoughts that any of you guys have with regard 20 to -- 21 MR. REEVES: As far as -- I believe maybe Mr. Letz 22 put it best two weeks ago, was let's fine-tune it. It's a 23 good plan. Let's fine-tune it. The biggest concern we have 24 is not to lose the momentum from what we gathered at the 25 show. Doesn't seem like a month ago, but it has been a 2-11-13 wk 13 1 month. You asked us to raise $500,000. We've been working 2 very hard on it. We have Ivalu from the Hill Country Charity 3 Ball here with us today. As you know, we're the benefactors 4 of that this year. But back to what I was saying on the 5 fundraising part, completion of Phase 1 is the greatest thing 6 towards moving funding for Phase 2. People were reluctant to 7 step out there -- the Charity Ball has -- but to fund a 8 second phase to all this first phase. With the completion of 9 Phase 1, with the -- some generous donations that came in 10 during the show and in pledges, we've submitted our other 11 grants. We're a finalist of the Hill Country Community 12 Foundation Grand Slam grant on March 5th. We just need to 13 keep moving forward so we don't lose interest or thinking 14 that it's not going to happen. 15 Commissioner Baldwin, you'd mentioned the indoor 16 arena needing some work to it, I believe, a couple weeks ago. 17 That's true. I mean, I don't think any of us are in as good 18 a shape as we were 30 years ago. But I think there's some 19 specific items that we can handle in the next phase. I think 20 a lot of it can be done in-house; maintenance, either through 21 the County or in conjunction with us. The original cost 22 estimates that came out a number of years ago, I believe, 23 were in the $800,000 range, and I'll stand corrected if I'm 24 off on my numbers. But we got to remember those numbers were 25 when we were talking about -- what was it, Mr. Oehler, nine 2-11-13 wk 14 1 or ten million instead of a couple million? 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 3 MR. REEVES: So, I mean, we should take that in 4 consideration, that perhaps that cost -- I mean, a brand-new 5 building only cost -- I say "only," but cost 1.7. So, I 6 don't foresee rehabbing everything costing half, because 7 we've already got the building there. We don't have the 8 slabs. But, nonetheless, the show's opinion in order to 9 raise the money is let's keep moving forward with what we've 10 got. Let's fine-tune the plans. I visited with Charlie and 11 Jonas and Mr. Dean, and they're -- they see what we've got, 12 what an asset it can be. So, if we need to do some fine 13 tuning, let's do it, and then let's move forward with it. 14 Steve, do you want to -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Basically, the footprint, though, is 16 sound from the show standpoint? 17 MR. REEVES: Yes, sir. And I think once we have 18 the Phase 2 completed, it can do nothing but help our show 19 with exhibit space. Not for animals, but with -- from 20 vendors. We get calls all the time, "Can we set up at your 21 show?" Do this or sell this or that, just simple rentals 22 from that. We could probably fund two or three more 23 scholarships a year from our association. And those of you 24 who know what we give a way in scholarships, two or three 25 more is even, you know, the cherry on top of the ice cream 2-11-13 wk 15 1 sundae. So, we're wanting to move forward on it. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to move forward, too. 3 I want us to all have the same vision, the same goals, same 4 priorities. I also want to know how much money y'all have 5 raised. Can you -- can you -- I'm not asking you to say it 6 publically. Could you send us a -- something, let us kind of 7 know? I'm sure some of these guys do. I do not. 8 MR. REEVES: I'll be more than happy to bring you 9 up to date on what we have in reserves. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, 'cause we kind of made 11 a little agreement there, you know, commitment and things 12 like that. We need to stand -- stand up to those. 13 MR. REEVES: And we're working on it as we speak. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: You feel you have good momentum in 16 your fundraising efforts? 17 MR. REEVES: The best momentum was completion of 18 Phase 1. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. 20 MR. REEVES: To the extent certain groups have 21 said, "Get your applications in." 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good deal. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Roy Walston, Ag agent? 25 MR. WALSTON: I've been in this all along with this 2-11-13 wk 16 1 and visited with Bruce and Jonathan several times, and I 2 agree with the stock show as far as some of the things, is 3 keeping the momentum going. We don't want to let it 4 stalemate now. I also have visited with some of our 5 livestock 4-H project feeders that feed and show in the -- in 6 the indoor arena. I've got some details that they've asked 7 me to bring forward that hopefully -- it just helps to get 8 some ideas out there and churning, as far as -- I don't think 9 it's something that's real expensive. I jotted these down 10 and just kind of put them together, and these are something 11 that I can start on the indoor arena, just for -- just 'cause 12 that's kind of something that I think we can -- like I say, I 13 think we can do it in-house. It's not something that I think 14 is going to be all that much -- all that expensive. 15 Of course, the speaker system, we all know the 16 shape of the speaker system, and I think everybody agrees 17 that that's something that has to be addressed. While we're 18 doing that, a lot of these topics address the pen area in the 19 back, where a lot of the county steers are stalled, and ever 20 since I've been here, we've had problems with electricity, no 21 -- no electrical plugs back there, no lighting, no sound 22 system and some things like that, that I think we can -- we 23 could do -- we could add that would not be a big expense, and 24 some of that could be done. As far as the addition, also, of 25 course, you know, if we've got leaks in the roof, include to 2-11-13 wk 17 1 try to repair any leaks that we have. And then I included 2 the addition of the possibility of fans. That's just 3 something that -- in that indoor arena, to help circulate 4 some air. That's -- that's something that -- I mean, if it's 5 possible, it's possible. If not, that's just -- just one of 6 those things that -- if we can do it. 7 As far as the exhibit hall goes, which is what I 8 would consider being Phase 2, the important part that we need 9 to get done, I think it's something that would address this 10 County and benefit the county; not only the livestock show, 11 not only the 4-H kids, but multiple events. We've been 12 addressed by several different groups wanting to come in with 13 either antique car shows, breeding livestock shows, 14 association -- breeding associations coming in. So, I think 15 it's something that is something that we really desperately 16 need. Some of the things that I've mentioned to Bruce 17 earlier about that is inclusion of maybe a drop-down ceiling, 18 just to simplify acoustics and heating and cooling. 19 I visited with Glen Alan Phillips, the General 20 Manager of San Antone Stock Show, about the exhibit hall 21 area, and he said probably the most important thing that they 22 had that they didn't do, that they wished they would have, 23 would be plenty of access to electrical outlets in the 24 floors. And he said they end up running extension cords a 25 lot further than they'd like because they didn't plan that 2-11-13 wk 18 1 ahead and get those -- those outlets in. And I put on here 2 20-by-20, not knowing what the exhibit hall spacing, you 3 know, booths would be. But, you know, basically just try to 4 have enough electrical plugs in the -- in the ground. Also, 5 enough electricity in the outside walls for the booth spaces 6 and things like that. Also, enough adequate storage for the 7 tables and chairs for the exhibit hall. It's going to take a 8 bunch. You know, I don't know how many, but it doesn't do 9 much good to have tables and chairs if we can't -- if we 10 don't have somewhere to store them that's easily accessible 11 for the maintenance or whoever's setting it up to be able to 12 get them in and out. 13 The other thing that I included in here -- and I 14 visited on this with Bruce, and I realize the expense in 15 doing this; this is going to be a big building. If there's 16 any possible way you can divide it into four -- four rooms, 17 to where you can have 350, that's still plenty -- that's 18 still a big room when you can put 350 people in it. If you 19 can do that, you can have four breakout sessions. But I also 20 understand the -- I understand the expense, so -- but that's 21 just some of the ideas that I have. Again, I just wanted to 22 bring these to you so that as we go through it, we'll get 23 into -- you know, the details get to be kind of important, 24 that we don't overlook something, so that's all I have. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Charlie McIlvain, 2-11-13 wk 19 1 Convention and Visitors Bureau? 2 MR. McILVAIN: I'm in total agreement with -- with 3 the electricity. I was over a facility similar -- similar, 4 and putting electricity in the floor and along the walls is 5 important, 'cause once you get started, or once you start 6 leasing the facility out, you realize that you don't have 7 enough. And I also agree that it'd be worthwhile to look at 8 dividing that into quarters. I've got one or two other 9 things that -- I hope we're not too late to do this, but -- 10 but my thought is, you're looking at a catering kitchen on 11 each end of the building and a vestibule here in the center. 12 I would consider reversing that. Put your catering kitchen 13 right here in the middle so that you don't have to duplicate 14 it; you could have one larger catering kitchen, and the -- 15 the vestibules are less expensive to build on the outer -- 16 outer ends of that building. Plus when your caterer comes 17 in, they're going to need outside access to that kitchen, and 18 if you've got the building -- if the building's up pretty 19 close to the wall, you're going to have trouble accessing 20 loading in and out. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, your caterers are going 22 to be able to come in from either end. 23 MR. McILVAIN: From either direction. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 'Cause there will still be an 25 alley that goes up to -- 2-11-13 wk 20 1 MR. McILVAIN: Okay. I wasn't sure whether it was 2 built right up against the existing -- 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It will be on this outside 4 wall. 5 MR. McILVAIN: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That we've extended out 20 7 feet. 8 MR. McILVAIN: All right. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: To the west end. So, you've 10 got direct access to them. 11 MR. McILVAIN: Okay. Well, I wasn't sure from 12 looking whether that was or not. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Direct access. 14 MR. McILVAIN: But -- but, again, my thinking was 15 you could still build a little larger kitchen, and just have 16 one -- one bigger kitchen rather than having two kitchens. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On that -- and catering, that's 18 one of my biggest things, 'cause I know nothing about them. 19 You know, we need to make sure that we get input from people 20 like you that tell us what the size exactly needs to be and 21 how they need to be configured. And, I mean, that's -- you 22 know, because, you know, that's going to be an important 23 part. We got to make sure, 'cause I know you have 24 refreshments -- or, you know, events you go to that have 25 different things going on, and how that fits, to me, is 2-11-13 wk 21 1 critical for the -- 2 MR. McILVAIN: One of the key factors is having 3 that facility as flexible as possible. You know, I know you 4 have -- you're at the stage where you can put it on any wall 5 in any location. You know, having those additional airwalls 6 in place will give you a lot more flexibility also. But 7 that's the key. The more flexible the facility is, the more 8 opportunities you'll have to use that building or rent that 9 building out. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is just another -- if I 11 could, if you don't mind me asking you the question, 'cause 12 you're -- I think you probably know more about them. Storage 13 for tables and chairs, should they be in two spots, or is it 14 better to centralize it in one spot? 15 MR. McILVAIN: Well, I'd recommend you probably 16 look at two, for this reason. There are going to be times 17 that you're going to have this building -- both sides of this 18 facility -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Used different. 20 MR. McILVAIN: -- used differently. And you may be 21 -- if you have it only in one location, you've got to carry 22 tables and chairs through the area that's being rented while 23 the other one's breaking down. You're going to -- you'll add 24 to the challenge of noise and -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There are two. 2-11-13 wk 22 1 MR. McILVAIN: Right, but that's what I say; I 2 think it's important to have two storage facilities. And 3 Roy's correct, you almost can't have enough storage when you 4 start putting all those chairs and tables, -- 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're going to have to stack 6 those tables. 7 MR. McILVAIN: -- dance floors and what-have-you. 8 You do need plenty of storage in that facility. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- I mean, I hear you say 10 that, but at the same time, we're not going to be able to 11 have equipment in there when we have events going on, moving 12 tables and chairs around. You got to be able to move them by 13 hand, or have -- I mean, how we sort of -- someone I talked 14 to mentioned that we need to look at round tables, because 15 round tables are what's going to be the preferred thing. And 16 that's totally different from how we stack things, since 17 everything -- everything we have is always based on the 18 rectangular tables we have. 19 MR. McILVAIN: And I even would say you're going to 20 need both round tables and rectangular. If you're leasing 21 the facility for an event where you've got booth space, 22 you're going to need the rectangular tables for those. And 23 if it's a banquet facility, you're going to need the round 24 tables. So, there -- and there again, each -- you know, the 25 tables that aren't being used need to be stored somewhere. 2-11-13 wk 23 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody -- anything else, Charlie? 2 MR. McILVAIN: No, sir. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Harold Dean, Chamber of 4 Commerce? 5 MR. DEAN: Yes, sir. Good project. I came in here 6 on the -- I guess the tail end of everything, but I'd like to 7 see it go forward, 'cause it certainly is an asset to our 8 community. And I've been a part of one of these before over 9 in Houston County, and it worked quite well. The facility 10 was a multi-use, which you've got here. And it will be an 11 asset to, you know, your arena and your other parts. Just 12 think of what we saw the other day when we were out there 13 with the kids. You could have used the space just for 14 something to make more revenue for the community that day, 15 and there's a lot of good suggestions, I know, floating 16 around. So, I'll be glad to help with that if necessary. 17 One little suggestion I might make is on your electrical, 18 instead of putting your -- any electrical in the floor, drop 19 it from the ceiling. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. 21 MR. DEAN: 'Cause people are always spilling stuff, 22 and, you know, you're going to mess up all your electrical on 23 the floor if you do that. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: And you got to -- once you put it in 25 the floor, you're stuck. If it comes from the ceiling, you 2-11-13 wk 24 1 can move it. 2 MR. DEAN: You can move it, yeah. But good 3 project. Very good. 4 MR. McILVAIN: Yes, I agree with that too. Take it 5 through the ceiling. 6 MR. DEAN: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Floor plugs, you just have a 8 constant problem, cleaning being number one, and dirt. 9 MR. DEAN: Yeah. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Jonas Titas, K.E.D.C., economic 11 development? 12 MR. TITAS: Thank you, gentlemen. This past week, 13 we looked at a couple of numbers and ran some assumptions, 14 updating a report that was done a year ago by C.V.B.'s 15 office. And I also looked at the calendar and just kind of 16 attempted to quantify the economic impact that this facility 17 might bring to the area, and we made two assumptions. One 18 scenario was a 10 percent increase in activity. The second 19 scenario is a 20 percent increase. And using the standard 20 C.V.B. multipliers for the weekend bookings, the amount of 21 people per convention and how much they spend, on the second 22 page, the Table 2, we look at how many event days the 23 facility is booked, and if activity were to increase, how 24 many more days we might see the -- the center being booked. 25 And then the -- the Table 3 at the bottom of the second page, 2-11-13 wk 25 1 we looked at the fees generated by the facility over the last 2 several years, and averaged those out, and looked at the same 3 increase. So, any questions you might have -- I think it's a 4 fairly straightforward report, but we'd be happy to answer 5 any questions. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: The important thing is not the fees 7 it generates to the county. 8 MR. TITAS: Sure. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The important thing is what it 10 generates for the community. 11 MR. TITAS: And that's what's we tried to do on the 12 first page, is that is initial economic impact. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's a good report. 14 MR. TITAS: Thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other stakeholder, interested 16 group, individual want to throw their two cents worth in 17 here? 18 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I have some comments I want to 19 make. As I sit here and I've listened, I'm playing like I'm 20 sitting here with all the money in my pocket, and I'm going 21 to invest in this new facility, because I'm sitting here with 22 taxpayer money in my pocket. And I've heard momentum -- keep 23 the momentum going. I've heard, "Build it and they'll come," 24 essentially. I've heard how to design it, but I haven't 25 heard anything about what the market is. So far, this 2-11-13 wk 26 1 facility brings in about $35,000 a year to the county, okay. 2 It is going to be increased costs. What we're doing is we're 3 looking at something right now that says, "We should invest 4 now. We've got to do it now." And I haven't heard anything 5 yet to say why we need to do it now, other than momentum. I 6 think momentum is important, but that's -- you know, the show 7 barn is one thing; exhibition hall is a different thing. 8 An exhibition hall for 1,700 people, where -- who 9 in here can help me understand where we're going to get 1,700 10 people to come to this facility, and what's the probability 11 of that? There's something called an addressable market. 12 You know, there are conventions where 1,700 people come. 13 What is the realistic, addressable market that this community 14 can attract bringing 1,700 people here? When they're 15 competing with San Antonio, and we're competing with other 16 facilities around here, you want to divide it down to 350 17 people? We've got facilities here that can handle 350 18 people. So, that's the part -- if I were investing, those 19 are the kinds of things that I would want to hear people say. 20 We built -- you know, the "build it and they'll come" thing, 21 we built -- we built an outdoor arena, $200,000; been used 22 four times in two years. We've got a 48,000 square foot show 23 barn. Maybe we can do some car shows. Probably can. But 24 that facility's going to sit empty for a long time. 25 Nothing to do with the livestock show. That is a 2-11-13 wk 27 1 great endeavor. I mean, that facility is used 100 percent 2 for that couple of weeks that that's there. Lots of people 3 benefit from it, but then most of the time it's sitting 4 empty. So, all I say is, before we invest a million 5 dollars-plus in a facility, let's understand why we're doing 6 it and what we're doing. I mean, we've looked at the thing; 7 we got a floor plan. "Let's put the catering here." "No, 8 let's put it there." I've heard, you know, that -- I don't 9 know if you need a larger exhibit hall for one day at the 10 livestock show. That's the portion it was used for for the 11 auction. I don't know. Do you need to double it? Do you 12 need a new one? I've heard that what we have out there is no 13 good 'cause the ceiling's too low. And I heard today, "No, 14 you got to drop the ceiling where you build something; be 15 sure and drop the ceiling for air conditioning and 16 acoustics." What does it cost to renovate what we have? It 17 costs a lot less than building a new one. 18 So, that's the problems that I have. There's -- 19 you know, I think that, you know, when I look at the thing I 20 and try to extrapolate, I say I want to look at how it's been 21 used in the past. Well, about 75 percent of it at the time 22 right now is used for 4-H shooting and archery, and I don't 23 know if Roy needs a new facility for 4-H shooting and archery 24 or not. I haven't heard that discussed. And so that leaves 25 about 25 percent of the time to use for other things, gun 2-11-13 wk 28 1 shows and what-have-you. And I'm sure if we had a nicer 2 facility, we would be using it for more things, but I don't 3 -- I haven't heard anybody make a case of why we -- you know, 4 build it and they'll come. I don't -- I don't think that's a 5 good strategy for taxpayers' money right now, build it and 6 they'll come. And I don't see -- I don't see why we need to 7 rush into it now. "We got to do it now, we got to do it now, 8 we got to do it now." You know, Bruce brought up the thing 9 of -- of the indoor arena needed improvements, and I think 10 that's true. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Buster did. 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I mean Buster, excuse me. 13 There are other things. When I look at the County's 14 resources, if I say, "Okay, well, I'm getting ready to go do 15 that, but what else might I need to do that I'm not doing?" 16 School security, library operations, V.S.O. facility -- 17 Veterans Service Officer facility. Our reserve funds are 18 going down this year as opposed to going up. We're still not 19 where we should be in reserve funds. So, are we willing to 20 take this money and not put them in reserve funds where we 21 might need them? That's the only problem. Priority list, 22 we're talking about volunteer fire departments. You know, 23 those guys are -- you know, they have to go out and raise 24 most of the money that they use to operate their facilities, 25 so there's a whole list of things that I think we need to 2-11-13 wk 29 1 look at prioritization before we commit to something that, to 2 me, nobody's made a compelling argument that says we need 3 this new facility. So, that's my observation. I don't want 4 to be the bad guy, but I'm trying to put -- I want to be 5 objective in it, and I'm really glad we had this -- this 6 forum to do this, because I think that's where -- what we're 7 looking for is to have an objective discussion. And you have 8 to think about, is -- is spending taxpayers' money on this, 9 is this really the right thing to do right now? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a comment on that 11 just a little bit, is that I -- I think that the information 12 that Mr. Titas gave us shows you the impact to the community 13 of what we currently have, and I think it's going to grow as 14 you go forward. Why we have to do it now, from the 15 standpoint -- to me, I've been a commissioner 16 years; I've 16 been working on this for 12 years. You know, so this is not 17 like I'm rushing to do something without thinking about it. 18 We've been -- I've been working on this plan and this project 19 and this -- and this building for 12 years. That's a long 20 time for me to be working on a project. Secondly, we told 21 the public when we did the -- the indebtedness on this 22 building -- and we have set it aside; it has to be used 23 really for this building. We told them we're building an ag 24 barn building. You kind of get into all kinds of trouble if 25 you say you're going to build an ag barn and you go -- well, 2-11-13 wk 30 1 one, you might get thrown in jail if you use it for reducing 2 reserves, 'cause that's not a viable option. You have to use 3 it for capital improvements at a minimum. 4 And I think that, you know, we've pretty much said 5 where it's going to be used, so I think that -- I mean, that 6 decision is made, in my mind. We're building the facility. 7 My concern is tweaking it a little bit to make sure that we 8 don't overlook something. I want to make sure we have the 9 storage to meet the kind of events that we're going to use 10 there, and that we've actually calculated this out and we 11 really know how many tables we're going to have, how many 12 chairs we're going to have, things of that nature. Or a drop 13 ceiling, you know. To me, I don't think we need to have a 14 ceiling 40 feet high in this building. That doesn't make a 15 lot of sense to me. But I don't think we need an 8- or 16 10-foot ceiling like you have in the current one either. We 17 need to figure out -- have a drop ceiling that works for this 18 type of a facility, which I don't know if it's 12 feet; I 19 don't know if it's 15 feet. I don't know what it is, but I 20 just want to make sure that we are telling our architect that 21 we want him to figure that out, and we want that -- you know, 22 and he will be held accountable. I think those are critical. 23 I think we need to have people -- and hopefully -- 24 again, I'm putting all of this on the architect, but the 25 architect needs to get with people that do catering, do 2-11-13 wk 31 1 events, like the Convention and Visitors Bureau, are familiar 2 with them as to how we lay out the kitchen. Does it need to 3 be here or here? I don't know if we need to have them. I 4 don't know if we need to have one or two. I'm relying on, 5 again, the expertise to say how we need to align these things 6 a little bit. That's what I really was wanting to get out of 7 this, is to -- you know, we need to be moving forward. We 8 need to move forward now, but we need to make sure that we 9 get -- this is a lot more complicated building, and we need 10 to have more input into the architect and design engineering 11 than we did on the barn. And, you know, one of the questions 12 I have that is still an unknown to me is, what are we doing 13 with the space in between the two buildings right now? Stock 14 show's offered us the upstairs area. If -- 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It stays. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It stays? To me, that all 17 ought to be torn out. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we do that, we don't have 19 that space. You got to put it on there. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, get rid of the space. I 21 don't know -- I don't know why we need the upstairs for Stock 22 Show Association any more. They need an office, but I don't 23 know why we need to have it upstairs. That's framed. We're 24 going to have the two metal buildings with a bunch of 2-by-4 25 walls bridged between them, you know, in between three new 2-11-13 wk 32 1 buildings -- well, two new and semi-new, counting the arena 2 as a semi-new building. I think that -- I don't understand 3 why we don't get rid of that space and utilize it -- or 4 utilize it better, rather than have that old stuff up there. 5 You know, I don't -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We had more -- we can take 7 that out. More of the space downstairs is what it amounts 8 to. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. You know, but we just 10 need to look at that. That's fine. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They need the space to do 12 their stuff. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They got to have space; I agree 14 with that. Or we need to have office space, you know, in 15 that building. Those are the things I want to make sure -- 16 and the reason I'm glad we had this meeting was to -- or this 17 workshop is to kind of get Peter in here, listen to that, and 18 make sure that he's hearing the needs of all the users and 19 coming up with a plan. And then it will be our job to say we 20 can't afford it. (Laughter.) 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Let me go back to one thing 22 you said, Jonathan, that was key. You said we told the 23 public that that's what we're going to do. You didn't ask 24 the public. The public's been asked twice, and they said no. 25 So you told the public, yeah that's where we're going to 2-11-13 wk 33 1 spend the money. And, you know, you don't have to spend the 2 money; you can just not spend it, okay, and that would be one 3 thing. Jonas and I have talked about his estimates, and 4 Sudie created these things. When Sudie did it a couple years 5 ago, she had the facility being utilized 42 weeks out of the 6 year, three days every weekend, 300 people in attendance at 7 each one of these events, each one of them spending $105, and 8 that comes up with really big numbers. Now, Jonas backed off 9 of that a bit. He said, "Let's see what was used this last 10 time." But it still assumes three full days every weekend; 11 that's Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, that people are there -- 12 300 people are there spending $105 a day. Probably Jonas 13 wouldn't argue with me; that's probably -- these numbers are 14 -- you wouldn't take your life savings and invest it, that 15 that's the kind of income you're going to bring in this 16 community, okay? So, that's probably a little bit high, too. 17 So, I'm still back -- gosh, he's going to leave now. I'm 18 kidding. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We all have an opinion, don't 20 we? That's yours. 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah. Well, and I'm just -- 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're one member of this 23 Court that didn't authorize expending those funds for this 24 project. 25 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah. And I'm just trying to 2-11-13 wk 34 1 look at it. You haven't spent them yet, so I'm just trying 2 to be objective and challenge it, okay? Challenge is good. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's fine. I don't mind 4 that at all. Good sparring -- 5 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So, those are my only other 6 two comments there. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, how much can we count on 8 you to donate? 9 COMMISSIONER MOSER: If it's a good deal? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This deal. 11 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I think with the return on my 12 investment, probably -- 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just match what I did. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Would you match what I did? 16 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Depends on return on 17 investment. How much money did you put in? How much money 18 did you get back? 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm not asking for any back, 20 I'm just donating it. 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: You're missing the return on 22 investment. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, as stewards of taxpayer 24 money, I think part of our obligation is to do things that 25 government can do that the private sector cannot or will not 2-11-13 wk 35 1 do that will benefit the community and cause it to grow and 2 prosper, and this is one of those projects. And, you know, 3 if -- if the Kerr County coffers don't increase a dime 4 because of rental fees, that's fine, as long as the benefit 5 to the community is enhanced. We've been hearing for a 6 number of years now -- and Jonathan talked about 12 years. I 7 suppose I've probably been at least four or five years kind 8 of studying and chewing on this thing. We've been kind of 9 stagnant about where we could go in terms of visitors to our 10 community, the types of visitors, the -- the numbers, the 11 size of the group and so forth, and some of the numbers that 12 have been passed around have been a little bit optimistic, 13 and some have been rather conservative. What the correct 14 number is, no one knows. 15 Insofar as saying, "Well, who's going to use it?" 16 You know, honest answer is you don't know for sure. The lead 17 time on groups of this size, generally they're at least two 18 years out, sometimes three or more, on committing to you. 19 And it's not a matter of going to groups of that size and 20 saying, "Okay, let's assume we build the thing and have it in 21 place by 'X' year. When will you commit to use it?" You're 22 not going to get any responses from those folks. But the key 23 is, you've got to build it to benefit the community. 24 Commissioner, I will tell you this. If -- if this Court 25 votes to make an unwise investment of taxpayer dollars that 2-11-13 wk 36 1 ends up not being of benefit to this community because it 2 builds a facility of this nature, I suspect those of us that 3 supported it will probably be voted from office, or elect not 4 to run because of the embarrassment of having voted for same. 5 But -- and that's the risk that we run as -- as stewards of 6 the taxpayers' money. 7 But I think it's an investment in the community. 8 I'm not talking about a county asset. I'm not talking about 9 an ag asset. I'm not talking about a stock show asset. I'm 10 talking about a community asset that can be utilized that we 11 don't have available to us now, we've not had available to us 12 for a number of years, and that we desperately need as an 13 asset to benefit the entire community, and I want to move the 14 thing forward. I don't want to cause any -- you talk about 15 momentum. Momentum is important. These folks are out there, 16 and they're securing pledges from -- from folks in the 17 community, and I want them to be able with confidence to go 18 out and continue doing that, because this Court has a 19 consensus and a desire and a willingness to invest in the 20 community by going forward and doing this project. And if 21 we're wrong, we'll pay the price for it. Simple enough. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Got it all down, Peter? 23 MR. LEWIS: Copious notes. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Good. Any other interested 25 individual? Group? Stakeholder? And you're not going to be 2-11-13 wk 37 1 limited. If you want to chew on this for some -- and jot 2 some notes down, send them to us. Send them to Peter. Send 3 them to anybody that'll review them. But we want to get your 4 thoughts and your ideas about what the community needs for 5 this kind of a facility. So, this isn't your last shot at 6 it, but don't wait till the -- don't wait till the walls 7 start going up before you suddenly decide that it needs to be 8 smaller or larger, please. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, can I ask Peter a 10 question? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, where are we with -- you 13 know, on the last agenda, I believe it was to authorize 14 preparing documents to go out for bid, and this may or may 15 not modify the plan a little bit. What is the timetable from 16 your standpoint to come up with a -- a sketch like this that, 17 you know, takes input from people? I mean, I don't want it 18 to drag on for long. 19 MR. LEWIS: I mean, you know, three or four weeks. 20 Two or three weeks. It just -- we need to sit down again 21 with -- I've got these notes. We can sit down with -- doing 22 a different -- you know, another little planning event, just 23 sitting around a room and sketching, and then modify what 24 we've got here with -- to address the storage needs. I mean, 25 some of the detail down in the weeds -- the electrical won't 2-11-13 wk 38 1 show up on a conceptual plan. We'll just -- we'll keep that 2 in mind. But doing some consulting with some other 3 conventioneers about the catering kitchens, about the size 4 and proximity of those, we can do that over the next three or 5 four weeks, and have something back. We have -- may have 6 been authorized, but we haven't begun to proceed with 7 construction drawings, because I just -- you know, we need to 8 nail this concept down. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Drawings comes from this. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 11 MR. LEWIS: Yeah. And so it's a fairly 12 straightforward deal. We have all the tools here. We have 13 the tool kit to do this. It's just massaging it at this 14 point, I think, and then coming up with a budget for what the 15 final floor plan is, and seeing if those two come together 16 and meet -- meet the needs of the community, as well as the 17 budgetary needs of what Commissioners Court is authorized to 18 expend. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that what you need? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else in connection with the 23 workshop? Okay, I will adjourn the workshop, and those of 24 you that are here for that purpose, why, you can either stay 25 or feel free to go. 2-11-13 wk 39 1 (Commissioners Court Workshop adjourned at 4:30 p.m.) 2 - - - - - - - - - - 3 4 5 STATE OF TEXAS | 6 COUNTY OF KERR | 7 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 8 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 9 official reporter for the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 10 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 11 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 28th day of February, 12 2013. 13 14 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 15 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 16 Certified Shorthand Reporter 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-11-13 wk