1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Thursday, March 14, 2013 11 3:00 p.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge 23 H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 TOM MOSER, Commissioner Pct. 2 24 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 25 ABSENT: JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 2 1 I N D E X March 14, 2013 2 PAGE 3 1.1 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to apply for grant funds for solar project at the 4 Hill Country Youth Event Center and approve a Letter of Intent and Non-Disclosure Agreement 5 with Meridian Solar, Inc., to have an Innovative Energy Demonstration Grant Application prepared 6 and submitted to the State Energy Conservation Office for the funding of a proposed photovoltaic 7 system at the Hill Country Youth Event Center 3 8 1.2 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to change personnel policy to include flex-time 21 9 1.3 Consider/discuss, take appropriate actions to 10 approve the hiring/replacement of a deputy clerk in the County Clerk’s office who is transferring 11 to the District Clerk's office 34 12 --- Adjourned 36 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Thursday, March 14, 2013, at 3:08 p.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll call to order the special 8 Commissioners Court meeting posted and scheduled for this 9 date and time, Thursday, March 14th, 2013, at 3 p.m. It's a 10 bit past that time now. We've got a few items on the agenda. 11 The first item is to consider, discuss, and take appropriate 12 action to apply for grant funds for solar project at the Hill 13 Country Youth Event Center, approve Letter of Intent and 14 Non-Disclosure Agreement with Meridian Solar, Inc., to have 15 an Innovative Energy Demonstration grant application prepared 16 and submitted to the State Energy Conservation Office for 17 funding a proposed photovoltaic system at the Hill Country 18 Youth Event Center. This matter was brought to my attention 19 late last week, and again brought it to the Court's attention 20 on Monday. It's kind of a short-fuse deal, and brought to my 21 attention by Mr. Tracy McCuan, our G.M. out at Kerrville 22 Public Utility Board, and I'll let him kind of springboard us 23 into this thing. 24 MR. McCUAN: Good afternoon, -- excuse me -- Judge, 25 Commissioners. As the Judge mentioned, this is a very short 3-14-13 4 1 time fuse item. KPUB only found out about it a little over 2 two weeks ago, and unfortunately, our chief engineer was gone 3 snow skiing for a week, so we had very little time to work on 4 it. And it's changed dramatically from our original intent, 5 where it was going to be a KPUB-only managed project on 6 county facilities, until such time as KPUB's contribution -- 7 financial contribution would be repaid, which I mentioned on 8 Monday. We anticipate that taking approximately eight years 9 for the payback of the 20 percent of the total cost of the 10 project that KPUB is proposed to fund on -- on the County's 11 behalf. The total project cost is 312,000. KPUB would be 12 putting up 62,000, and SECO, the State Energy Conservation 13 Office, would pay the other 250,000. It would be for a 14 100-kilowatt solar panel system, photovoltaic -- 15 COMMISSIONER MOSER: How much again? 16 MR. McCUAN: 100 kW. 17 COMMISSIONER MOSER: 100, okay. 18 MR. McCUAN: Kilowatts. 19 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 20 MR. McCUAN: That's very -- that would be by far 21 the largest on KPUB's system. If you're familiar with the 22 ones that we have put in at the local schools -- middle 23 schools or at the KPUB office, those are 2 kilowatt, and this 24 is 100, so 50 times that size. The payback arrangement we 25 were anticipating, which would still have to be worked out 3-14-13 5 1 through interlocal agreement between KPUB and the County, 2 would be that we would figure out the savings each month, or 3 estimate it for an annual basis, and divide by 12, of what 4 the savings to the County would be on its electric bill for 5 that facility, and then we would take half that savings that 6 the County would still pay half that savings until such time 7 as the 62,000 has been refunded, and then the County would 8 from there, of course, get 100 percent of the savings. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And under that scenario, a 10 payback scenario of eight years? 11 MR. McCUAN: That's what we're estimating. You 12 have to understand, you have to get the system installed. 13 Depending on the pitch, the actual direction that it's 14 looking toward the sun, you know, it's -- right now, it's 15 only estimates of how much power it will put out. We don't 16 know the exact figures. 17 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So, 100 kilowatts is over how 18 many square feet? 19 MR. McCUAN: It's approximate. It will take up 20 approximately 10,000 square feet. 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: 10,000 square feet. So -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Bottom line is, there would be no 23 cash outlay by Kerr County, and after the system is 24 installed, once an estimate is made of the savings, one-half 25 of that savings, in essence, would be rebated back in the way 3-14-13 6 1 of cash from Kerr County to KPUB to be applied on the debt 2 for the 20 percent match outlay up front until that were 3 liquidated. And -- but still, during that same period of 4 time, we'd be getting the other half of the savings that we 5 wouldn't be paying. 6 MR. McCUAN: Right. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: And then once that's liquidated, 8 why, the entire savings goes to Kerr County. But we got no 9 cash flow requirements except from what we gain through 10 savings. And then -- 11 MR. McCUAN: And the time involved -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And half of that -- 13 MR. McCUAN: -- doing the application and 14 monitoring the project. 15 COMMISSIONER MOSER: A couple of -- may I ask a 16 couple of questions? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, surely. 18 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So, calculating the amount 19 that's saved, walk me through that. Let's just -- for 20 talking purposes, let's say right now the County -- this is 21 going to be a ridiculous load, but say it's going to be 22 1,000 kilowatt hours per month, okay? Say that's what we use 23 out there. So, how do we -- do we use that then as the basis 24 for our savings? How do we calculate savings? 25 MR. McCUAN: Well, the panels will feed your local 3-14-13 7 1 load there, but also feed back into the grid when the panels 2 are producing more than what the load on that facility is. 3 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 4 MR. McCUAN: And, in essence, if it was an old 5 style meter that you're used to watching that disk turn, it 6 will turn backwards, literally. 7 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 8 MR. McCUAN: And turn the dials backwards. 9 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Got you. 10 MR. McCUAN: But that's not how we meter these 11 things. We actually meter what's going in and what's coming 12 back out, so we have much more precise measurements. We have 13 the technological advantage of knowing exactly what your 14 solar panels are putting out, rather than just -- 15 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So, how do we -- 16 MR. McCUAN: -- an average. 17 COMMISSIONER MOSER: How do we know how much we 18 save? That's my question. 19 MR. McCUAN: By that metering. By the kilowatt 20 hours produced by the system. 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. So -- 22 MR. McCUAN: We will know the exact kilowatt hours 23 produced by the system. 24 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So, theoretically, we may be 25 producing more energy than we consume. 3-14-13 8 1 MR. McCUAN: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER MOSER: And if that's the case, then 3 if we produce more energy than we consume, the excess that we 4 produce, we split fifty-fifty? Is that what you're saying? 5 MR. McCUAN: No, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Help me, then. 7 MR. McCUAN: The system will put out something -- 8 estimated something on the order of 1,200 kilowatt hours a 9 month. 10 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 11 MR. McCUAN: Those are worth "X" dollars. 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Oh, got you. 13 MR. McCUAN: And we will know exactly what that 14 system is putting out. 15 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. So, what's our basis 16 for savings? That's my question. We base our historical -- 17 MR. McCUAN: It has nothing to do with your 18 consumption. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: It's what it generates. 20 MR. McCUAN: It's what actually comes out of the 21 solar panels. 22 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. So that's not savings; 23 that's -- that's energy that we're generating? 24 MR. McCUAN: Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. So that's not a 3-14-13 9 1 savings, really. I mean, it is savings, but that's not the 2 way we calculate -- 3 MR. McCUAN: That's how we will calculate, quote, 4 the savings. If -- if this was a typical commercial 5 installation, and we do have one in town, in that case, they 6 only get something reduced on their bill when they do put out 7 more power than they're using. But this is not that kind of 8 situation. We're trying to split the benefit of the system 9 with the County until such time as the 62,000 is -- 10 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I don't want to belabor this, 11 but I've got to have it in my own mind. If we generate more 12 energy than we use, -- 13 MR. McCUAN: You will at times. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay, yeah. I'm saying when 15 we do, then that excess, the value of that energy is split 16 fifty-fifty? Is that what you're saying? 17 MR. McCUAN: Yes. But also, the reduction of the 18 energy of ours that you did not use because you were 19 generating, we will split that with you too. That's why I'm 20 saying it's -- to me, it's a lot easier to think of it just 21 as we will put a dollar value on the kilowatt hours produced 22 by those solar panels. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Some of which we use, some of which 24 go back in the grid. 25 MR. McCUAN: Exactly. 3-14-13 10 1 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 2 MR. McCUAN: Some don't go back out on the grid. 3 But we didn't have to provide them, so that's an energy 4 savings, therefore a cost savings. 5 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. All right. A couple 6 other questions, if I may. 7 MR. McCUAN: Yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER MOSER: What is the total system? I 9 know the solar cells -- the photovoltaic cells are up there, 10 but what else is there? It has to be maintained, and my next 11 question is going to be, who's responsible for the 12 maintenance and operation of all these controllers and -- 13 'cause it's going to -- there's a lot of controllers and -- 14 MR. McCUAN: There are. There are. There is an 15 inverter that converts -- because this is D.C. power coming 16 off the panels. 17 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. 18 MR. McCUAN: It converts it to A.C. There's 19 controls. For one thing, if the power to the building goes 20 out, the panels are automatically disconnected to keep from 21 electrocuting somebody -- 22 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. 23 MR. McCUAN: -- who thinks the power's out, and 24 they're out there working on it. There's disconnect switches 25 involved, and then the metering. 3-14-13 11 1 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. 2 MR. McCUAN: I was told that a gentleman, Dan 3 Powell, would be here. He can probably go into more detail, 4 especially concerning the maintenance. He's from Meridian 5 Solar. 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Let me just say, there's a 7 bunch of stuff. 8 MR. McCUAN: Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. So who's responsible 10 for the maintenance and operations of that stuff? 11 MR. McCUAN: There are warranties. If -- if the 12 system is, in fact, purchased through Meridian, they have 13 warranties. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: But when -- it's going to cost 15 something -- 16 MR. McCUAN: Potentially. 17 COMMISSIONER MOSER: -- to maintain and operate it. 18 Who pays that for that maintenance and operation? 19 MR. McCUAN: Well, under our original plan that we 20 envision, KPUB wouldn't own the equipment until after -- I 21 mean, would only own it until such time as the 62,000 was 22 repaid, so we would be responsible. But, you know, it would 23 be the County, except -- 24 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So we would be responsible for 25 maintenance and operation? 3-14-13 12 1 MR. McCUAN: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. Next question is, how 3 does that cost get factored into this equation where we're 4 going to split fifty-fifty? 5 MR. McCUAN: Well, that's where I think Mr. Powell 6 is better suited to answer. The experience that I have -- 7 and I was with the electric utility in San Antonio a long 8 time before coming here, and solar had been installed and 9 encouraged there for many years. These systems -- these 10 modern systems are relatively maintenance-free. Yes, you can 11 have an inverter go out. You can have other problems from 12 time to time, but other than possibly rinsing off the solar 13 panels because of a dusty environment like this may be, it's 14 relatively maintenance-free. 15 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Well, but I don't buy that. 16 Okay? I mean, it's going to cost something. 17 MR. McCUAN: Potentially, yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I don't care if it's a dollar, 19 or -- 20 MR. McCUAN: But that's what warranties are for. 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: It's going to cost something. 22 So, I'm just trying to get some feel for what the cost -- 23 who's going to be responsible for that cost, and what you're 24 saying is the County's going to be responsible -- 25 MR. McCUAN: Yes, sir. 3-14-13 13 1 COMMISSIONER MOSER: -- for cost, whether it's a 2 dollar or $10 or $1,000. 3 MR. McCUAN: My -- I have not seen the proposed 4 contract from Meridian to actually construct the system. 5 Right now, we're just trying to get an application in to the 6 State to see if we get a grant. 7 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. Well, I'm just trying 8 to get an understanding of -- 9 MR. McCUAN: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER MOSER: -- what our obligation is 11 going to be. 12 MR. McCUAN: My understanding is, Meridian's 13 standard warranty on the solar panels themselves is 20 years. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: On the solar panels 15 themselves? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: He just affirmed that. Let's get -- 17 MR. POWELL: I'm Brad Powell from Meridian. 18 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay, yeah. The -- 19 MR. POWELL: Today's solar systems -- solar 20 electric systems are really virtually maintenance-free. And 21 that's based on hundreds and hundreds of installations that 22 we have done around Texas. There are no moving parts. There 23 are panels that are mounted onto what they call strings, that 24 then go into inverters, and then are directly tied back into 25 the grid. They -- the panels themselves have a 25-year 3-14-13 14 1 production warranty, and at the end of 25 years -- there's a 2 bit of degradation each year, small percentage. 3 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That's my fifth question. 4 MR. POWELL: But at the end of 25 years, the panels 5 should still be operating at about 80 percent of the initial. 6 The warranty on the inverter, which is really the only other 7 thing that could go wrong, is 10 years. And at the 10-year 8 point, it could be extended to another 10 years. What we've 9 found, most folks plan on replacing the inverter at about 15 10 years, just as a -- as a precautionary measure. And they 11 build that into their -- into the project cost. 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: What's an inverter cost? 13 MR. POWELL: $15,000. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: 15,000? 15 MR. POWELL: So, 15 years, that's -- 16 COMMISSIONER MOSER: $1,000 a year. 17 MR. POWELL: Right. Right. And so that would be 18 in your calculations. From a maintenance standpoint, if it's 19 a normal rain year, which we haven't had in a while, there 20 should be no maintenance to the system. If you get a good 21 rain every three weeks, especially in the summertime, and 22 especially in the central Texas climate where we have dust, 23 that rain will wash it off. If we have a couple of summers 24 like we had the past few, you need to wash them off once a 25 month, or -- 3-14-13 15 1 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Wash them? Just take a fire 2 hose -- 3 MR. POWELL: Garden hose. Garden hose, yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER MOSER: You mean you could literally 5 stand -- get someplace with a big spray system that 6 dissipates the thing and just hose them down? 7 MR. POWELL: Yeah. I mean, and literally, just a 8 garden hose, just to rinse them off. And that's -- 9 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 10 MR. POWELL: Yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I've got another question. 12 MR. POWELL: Mm-hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Or two. What's -- these 14 things are up on a roof? 15 MR. POWELL: Mm-hmm. 16 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. What -- what are they 17 capable of standing, wind load? 18 MR. POWELL: The wind load it will do here is 90. 19 We do 120 at the coast for hurricanes. Central Texas is 90. 20 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. So, this -- so you're 21 saying a standard system is 90 miles an hour? 22 MR. POWELL: For central Texas. 23 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Assuming the structure to 24 which it's attached is good for 90 miles an hour? 25 MR. POWELL: Exactly. Exactly. 3-14-13 16 1 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Well, I don't know -- what's 2 our building -- what's that new building, Bruce? Probably 3 designed for 90, most -- most things like that. 4 MR. LEWIS: It's 90. Yeah, that's going to be 5 required by the code. 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah. So, 90 miles an hour, 7 okay. So that's additional -- that's probably a lift load on 8 that roof that it wasn't designed for, 'cause these stand off 9 the roof. 10 MR. POWELL: Tiny bit. Tiny bit. There's a -- 11 there's a latticework system they go onto, and it's a 12 non-penetrating -- 13 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah, but you got air going 14 in, so you got lift on there. So -- but it's probably 15 doable, probably not a showstopper. I think you answered my 16 questions. 17 MR. McCUAN: If I could go back on -- kind of back 18 on the maintenance issue, -- 19 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. McCUAN: -- we are estimating -- KPUB is 21 estimating that the savings from these panels will be $900 to 22 $1,000 a month. 23 COMMISSIONER MOSER: 900 to 1,000? Okay. 24 MR. McCUAN: Okay. So, for the first eight years, 25 the County saves about $500 a month on its electric bill for 3-14-13 17 1 that facility, and then later, after about eight years, 2 you're saving $1,000 a month. So, certainly, with having no 3 cash outlay up front, the thought of replacing an inverter at 4 15 years, -- 5 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Sure, yeah. 6 MR. McCUAN: -- you know, is worthwhile. 7 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That all sounds reasonable to 8 me. 9 MR. McCUAN: Anything else? 10 COMMISSIONER MOSER: But one other thing, just to 11 clarify. So you think that the degradation of these solar 12 cells is about -- is about 20 percent in 25 years? That's 13 been -- 14 MR. POWELL: Yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER MOSER: -- your experience? I know 16 they just keep improving and improving. 17 MR. POWELL: They do. But that's documented on the 18 cells that are out today. 19 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 20 MR. POWELL: That's the degradation. And that's a 21 conservative degradation they put into models. 22 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay, super. 23 MR. POWELL: So -- and there's -- there's some 24 solar panels that were installed in the '70's that are still 25 producing today. 3-14-13 18 1 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That's pretty good. Okay. 2 MR. McCUAN: And we have one in Kerrville down in 3 Louise Hays Park. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: When was that put in, Tracy? Do you 5 know? 6 MR. McCUAN: I don't know, because it was done by 7 L.C.R.A. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Goes back a ways. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I wouldn't think it's more 10 than 8 or 10 years, would you? 11 MR. McCUAN: I don't know. KPUB -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Time flies when you're having 13 fun, I guess. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Been there a while. 15 MR. McCUAN: The City purchased the system from 16 L.C.R.A. in '87, and that system was already there. 17 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 18 MR. McCUAN: Thank you. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Lavender, I think you've been 20 working on the grant proposal. You pretty well have that -- 21 MS. LAVENDER: Right, the grant proposal is done. 22 It's due in Austin tomorrow afternoon at the Comptroller's 23 office at 2 o'clock, and so we believe we can physically 24 carry the grant application over there and turn it in 25 tomorrow. And so what we're asking you today is to approve 3-14-13 19 1 the resolution for the application of the grant, and 2 authorize Judge Tinley to sign the necessary paperwork to 3 submit the grant. I will say that there's only $2 million 4 available statewide in this funding stream, and we're asking 5 for a quarter of a million. So -- but you don't know with 6 these kinds of things. But if you don't apply for grants, 7 guaranteed, you're not going to get it. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And even if it's awarded, you don't 9 have to accept it. 10 MS. LAVENDER: That's exactly right. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: If we find something between now and 12 then, we can say, you know, I believe we'll pass. 13 MS. LAVENDER: And I will say for the record that 14 Meridian has been exceptionally helpful in helping get the 15 grant application put together in a very short time, and 16 needs to be commended for their bringing it to our attention, 17 and -- and KPUB for bringing it to us. And I believe we've 18 done about as good as we can do on the application at this 19 point. It is the same grant application stream that we 20 applied for two years ago with SECO, and so at least I was 21 familiar with the format of it when we got the application 22 day before yesterday at 4 o'clock. 23 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I'll make a motion that we -- 24 MS. LAVENDER: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER MOSER: -- submit a grant application 3-14-13 20 1 for the photovoltaic system as outlined by KPUB, and as 2 delineated in the grant application that you have prepared. 3 MS. LAVENDER: I would make one note. On the -- 4 the agenda, we have "approve a letter of intent and 5 non-disclosure." We are not going to do that; that's not 6 going to be a part of the grant application process. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: No, it's just the grant application. 8 MS. LAVENDER: Right, it's just the grant 9 application that we're submitting. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And authorize the Judge to 11 sign? 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Authorize the Judge to sign. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and second as 15 indicated. Further discussion on the motion? Mr. County 16 Attorney, the grant application, no legal issues with that as 17 it stands now? 18 MR. HENNEKE: Not with submitting the grant 19 application. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any other question or 21 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 22 your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 3-14-13 21 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Thank you, Ms. 2 Lavender. I think you're going to be hitting the road early 3 in the morning, aren't you? 4 MS. LAVENDER: Well, maybe not too early. 5 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's go to Item 2 on our 7 agenda; to consider, discuss, take appropriate action to 8 change personnel policy to include flex time. Commissioner 9 Baldwin? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Moser? I don't know 12 which one of you wants to run with that, but y'all choose up 13 sides and see what you can do. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It appears -- and the County 15 Attorney visited about this a little bit yesterday. It 16 appears that the appropriate language or verbiage, maybe, is 17 not well enough done to actually do what we were trying to 18 do, so -- but I'm glad that it's on the table. I'm glad that 19 we have flex time on the table so we can discuss it, and as 20 well as the actual -- 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Policy. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, the policy. What did 23 you do with my policy? 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not over here. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The actual policy that's 3-14-13 22 1 written. And it's right here in my hand; that's where it is. 2 I just wanted to read this one line out of this policy. It 3 says, "Alternative work schedules are not authorized unless 4 specifically approved by elected officials or Commissioners 5 Court." Now, to me, at least, I understand it a certain way. 6 We could have done what we were trying to do on Monday. We 7 could have just authorized this employee to have an 8 alternative work schedule. I -- there's one thing that I 9 don't -- that I don't agree with this, and I want to say it 10 then get it out of the way, and we'll go on and be happy. 11 The idea of an elected official making these kind of 12 decisions I disagree with, because this body, the 13 Commissioners Court, is the policy-making body of the county. 14 Of -- of all the things that we do as a 15 Commissioners Court, policy-making is the central theme of 16 the whole thing, and I just think that an elected official 17 would be a supervisor-type person, and the -- but the 18 Commissioners Court -- all of these kinds of things need to 19 come before the Commissioners Court for approval or 20 disapproval. That's all I wanted to say about that. I'm 21 probably the only guy this side of the Mississippi that 22 thinks that way, but I do think that way. So, that's all 23 I've got to say. Personally, you know, by looking at this -- 24 and our guru down here kept telling me that -- that the 25 verbiage is already there, and it can -- and we can do it. 3-14-13 23 1 So, what do you think? Yeah, how do you like that? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: About flex time? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No -- yeah, about flex time, 4 mm-hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or alternative work schedule, 6 however you want to put it. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Flex time and alternative work 8 schedules are not one and the same thing. You're talking 9 about apples and oranges, I think. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. So you're going -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Flex time has a different meaning 12 than an alternative work schedule, I -- I think. I'm not 13 sure I know what the definition of alternative work schedule 14 is, but I think there -- there is an accepted line of 15 thinking of what flex time is, and I believe H.R. has that 16 information. 17 MS. LANTZ: I did research that a little bit. 18 MR. HENNEKE: I don't know that we have it defined 19 in our policy either way. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think it's mentioned in the 21 policy one way or the other. 22 MR. HENNEKE: Well, as far as alternative -- what 23 alternative work schedule means. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: No. I don't think flex time is, 25 either. 3-14-13 24 1 MR. HENNEKE: I've always seen them as kind of 2 synonymous. 3 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I'm with the Judge; I can see 4 a little bit of difference in what they would mean. 5 MS. LANTZ: Basically, what most companies -- 6 entities consider flex time is things to integrate within 7 their work to help the employees with their personal lives, 8 taking care of family members, leaving for events, things 9 like that. And I think here within Kerr County, we do that 10 within the departments. If employees need to leave to take 11 care of things, they want to go to their kid's basketball, 12 baseball, whatever, they make arrangements with their 13 department heads or supervisors to do that. That's basically 14 what I was able to find what flex schedule does represent. 15 It doesn't indicate anything as far as rearranging the work 16 hours for other personal gains, so that's -- that's up to the 17 individual company or public sector to define. 18 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So, you're saying that flex 19 time just means if someone wants to take off an hour -- not 20 regularly? 21 MS. LANTZ: It's not consistent. It's not 22 considered you do that all the time, from here on out type, 23 modifying your work schedule. Flex schedule, what I was able 24 to find, is between the employer and the employee as far as 25 making arrangements. They still have their lunch hour; they 3-14-13 25 1 still have their breaks. They either come in at 7:00, work 2 to 4:00, or, you know, 9:00 to 6:00. That's considered flex 3 as well. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Flex time needs to also be suitable 5 for the employer as well as the employee. It's just not a 6 one-way street. 7 MS. LANTZ: Yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What it says in here -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And you mentioned that -- that it's 10 not something that should be utilized in order to provide an 11 additional third-party benefit to the employee. 12 MS. LANTZ: It's really not what it's intended for, 13 no. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: But -- oh, I'm sorry. 15 MS. LANTZ: But that's up to -- there again, that's 16 the employer 's call on that. However, for this particular 17 instance that I did locate this information, there's certain 18 criteria you have to meet in order to get -- because if we 19 allowed everybody take -- to have flex time, they can walk in 20 in each department where they're on shifts or something and 21 say, "I need to do this; I need flex time." For example, the 22 Sheriff's Office, who already rotate their shifts. They 23 accommodate towards flex time. They switch out schedules, 24 which works within their area. However, they're still 25 working their hours, but they're shift work, where other 3-14-13 26 1 offices aren't shift work. We're 8:00 to 5:00. 2 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So -- but -- so the way the 3 policy is now, that it's between the supervisor, whoever the 4 supervisor is, or the responsible party, be it Commissioners 5 Court or an elected official, that that -- if they agree with 6 the employee, that they can work from 6 a.m. to 3 p.m. or 7 something like that, then that's consistent with the policy 8 that exists today? 9 MS. LANTZ: Within the elected officials, as the 10 policy states. 11 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Or within Commissioners Court. 12 MS. LANTZ: Or the Court makes the decision for the 13 other individuals. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So -- 15 MS. LANTZ: Department heads. 16 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That's the way it is. So, 17 back to Commissioner Baldwin's point. We could have -- on 18 Monday, we could have said yes or no, okay. We could have 19 said yes, if we wanted to, to the request that the hours for 20 Terry be from 8:00 to 3:00 -- 8:00 to 4:00, with no lunch. 21 MR. HENNEKE: Well, that's -- that's different. I 22 mean, that's a different policy there, Commissioner Moser. 23 The County policy is that you've got, you know, an unpaid 24 lunch in the middle, and you can't bank those periods. So, 25 you can do a 7:00 to 4:00, but you couldn't do, you know, an 3-14-13 27 1 8:00 to 4:00 and just let somebody take their lunch at -- 2 basically, leave at 4:00. 3 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I don't understand why that 4 says you can't do that. 5 MR. HENNEKE: Well, it says in there you can't bank 6 time, and for the same reason -- 7 COMMISSIONER MOSER: It says you can't bank time? 8 MS. LANTZ: I didn't bring the policy with me. 9 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Does it say that? 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If she didn't take a lunch 11 break and worked straight through from 8:00 to 4:00, that's 12 eight hours. 13 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That's right. 14 MR. HENNEKE: But we give them a lunch break, and 15 for the same example that, you know, you wouldn't allow 16 someone to not take lunch for two weeks and then have a day 17 off. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 19 MR. HENNEKE: Because they don't use their, you 20 know, 10 days worth of lunch breaks. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, what I'm saying, though, 22 is if you work straight through, you don't take a lunch 23 break, and you're not banking anything. 24 COMMISSIONER MOSER: It's eight hours. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's eight hours. 3-14-13 28 1 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Because it -- I just heard 2 that if it's -- whoever the supervisor or the controlling 3 entity is, be it Commissioners Court or elected officials, 4 and they agree to that, they can do it. Doesn't say anything 5 about banking time or anything else. It says eight hours. 6 MS. LANTZ: It does say that in the policy. 7 However, I would just like to say that any other department 8 can come in here and request the same thing. 9 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. 10 MS. LANTZ: So at that point, if do you do that and 11 someone else from a different office comes in, or an elected 12 official's office; for instance, one of Rusty's officers 13 says, "I need to leave -- I'm going to work 8:00 to 4:00 14 today," or, "I need to leave at 3:00," I mean, he's an 15 elected official, so that's just -- we're trying to make it 16 consistent. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Elected officials are already 18 doing it without asking permission. We're just talking about 19 right now departments that we have oversight of, that work 20 under the Commissioners Court. 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. 22 MR. HENNEKE: I can't say that there's not -- I 23 just can't say one way or another yet that there's not an 24 F.L.S.A. -- 25 COMMISSIONER MOSER: What's F.L.S.A.? 3-14-13 29 1 MR. HENNEKE: -- Fair Labor Standards Act, item for 2 providing a break within a certain period of time, to 3 where -- you know, if you want me to look that up, I'd be 4 glad to, but I want to say that there's something that 5 provides that. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Make it mandatory? 7 MR. HENNEKE: Yeah, getting breaks. And just like 8 with that, when our employees take lunch, they're not 9 supposed to be working. You know, they're supposed to be -- 10 that's their own time, if they want to, you know, go eat in 11 the break room or whatnot. You know, we're not supposed to 12 be letting them work during that period of time that they 13 have off. But I just can't tell you for sure if that's a 14 requirement or not. I know that's -- 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think that's something -- 16 if it's going to be done every day and full-time, that's a 17 big difference too. If it's once in a while is one thing. 18 I think when it comes down to the Fair Labor Standards Act, 19 because if it's mandatory that you can't work an employee a 20 straight eight hours without breaks -- which we wouldn't be 21 forcing that, but we'd be allowing it to happen. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think there's one thing 23 about it. I know Fair Labor Standards, in our situation with 24 Sheriff's Office, my employees work 12-hours shifts. They 25 get paid for the 12 hours, okay, 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., which 3-14-13 30 1 includes a lunch. We have to give them the lunch, okay, but 2 they are on call during that lunch, which is allowed by the 3 Fair Labor. So, they're being paid for that lunch period, 4 but they may not get it if there's a call. So -- 5 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Since they're on subject to 6 call, they're on duty. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 8 MR. HENNEKE: But that's law enforcement. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's a law enforcement 10 exception under that Fair Labor, so I don't know what the -- 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's a whole 'nother can of 12 worms. 13 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So, if it's consistent with 14 Fair Labor Standards Act, allowing someone to work through 15 their lunch hour and work eight hours, then that's consistent 16 with the policy, if it's approved. 17 MR. HENNEKE: Now, I guess if -- if you ever -- I 18 guess if there's no legal requirement for a midday break, you 19 could allow someone to work eight straight hours. 20 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. 21 MR. HENNEKE: Without eating or without taking any 22 breaks. I mean, you're not supposed to be -- you're eating 23 at your desk or you're taking a lunch break or you're 24 working. I mean, that -- but if that's the direction of the 25 Court, I can come back with an answer. 3-14-13 31 1 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I'm just saying -- I just said 2 assuming that you're comfortable with that, looking at the 3 F.L.S.A. -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Doesn't make it past the legal 5 requirement, but I still think you've got overall policy 6 consideration. 7 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Sure. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: From a personnel management to look 9 at -- we're trying to talk about policy, but we're talking 10 about a specific case. And we've got another policy that 11 talks about other employment that adversely affects their 12 ability to perform their primary job here with the County. 13 And some of the requirements for having that secondary 14 employment, your flex time or adjusted work schedule -- let's 15 say, for example, okay, well, we'll create a new schedule. 16 Come in at 7:00, and you work till 4:00, and we'll get the 17 lunch hour in between there, so everything's cool there. How 18 is -- how is beginning a work day at 7 a.m. in the Kerr 19 County Courthouse going to benefit Kerr County? I would 20 submit to you, not only does it not benefit Kerr County; it 21 creates additional obligations on Kerr County, because now 22 you got the courthouse open. You got to have security, those 23 sorts of things. 24 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I agree. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: There's got to be a benefit to the 3-14-13 32 1 County. I seriously doubt the citizens of this county want 2 this Court creating all sorts of convoluted work schedules 3 which benefit particular employees' needs, desires, wants, 4 whatever they may be, where there's no appreciable benefit to 5 the County or the taxpayer. 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I would agree with you 100 7 percent. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm really concerned -- I understand 9 elected officials do that with their employees. That's 10 within their purview, and they answer to the -- they answer 11 to the voters if -- if there's some difficulty with that. I 12 don't want to answer to the voters by virtue of creating work 13 schedules that don't benefit the County, that may even create 14 additional demands on the County. I don't -- I don't want to 15 be so rigid that we don't try and reasonably accommodate our 16 people, but there's got to be some benefit to the County. 17 There's -- we've got to be in compliance with the law and 18 reasonable treatment for our employees. But I just don't 19 want to get on a slippery slope of -- I'm always reminded of 20 the old statement, "Bad cases make bad law," and I'm afraid 21 that's what we're about to jump off into. And saying we have 22 a -- adopting a policy which allows for flex schedule, I got 23 no problem with that, but when you're looking at creating a 24 flex schedule for a particular employee, there are right 25 reasons; there are wrong reasons. You got to look at the -- 3-14-13 33 1 the mutual responsibility, the mutual benefits. And if -- I 2 don't want to get into the business of personnel management 3 for the benefit of the employees. Personnel management needs 4 to be to the benefit of the overall mission of the county. 5 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I agree. And I think, you 6 know, from what I, you know, understand, I don't think 7 there's -- from my perspective, I don't see a reason to 8 incorporate the flex -- flex time in the policy. I don't see 9 that that does anything. I think -- I think all the 10 capability is there to do it on a case-by-case basis. If 11 that's what elected officials or Commissioners Court want to 12 do, that's within the -- assuming that it's not in violation 13 of -- and you wouldn't want to do that in violation of Fair 14 Labor -- F.L.S.A., okay. We certainly don't want to do that. 15 So, I don't think -- and I don't know if Commissioner Baldwin 16 -- I don't see a reason -- we're -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you; I don't 18 see any reason to have it. And then this agenda item, the 19 way that we worded it, the issue's over. 20 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we go on to something 22 else? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We can do that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I assume you have nothing 3-14-13 34 1 further on it? 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Beat that horse up enough. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 3 is consider, discuss, take 6 appropriate action to approve the hiring/replacement of a 7 deputy clerk in the County Clerk's office who is transferring 8 to the District Clerk's office. Ms. Pieper? 9 MS. PIEPER: Well, gentlemen, Ms. Burlew is now the 10 District Clerk. There was a position opened in there, and so 11 one of my employees filled out the application and was hired, 12 so is going upstairs to the District Clerk's Office, which 13 leaves an opening in my office. So, I would like permission, 14 because of the hiring freeze, to fill this position. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're a lucky woman that 16 Jon Letz is not here. (Laughter.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: She planned it that way. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good planning on your part. 19 MS. PIEPER: I need to get it filled as soon as 20 possible. That's why I'm here. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you this. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: He's going to play Jonathan. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The conversation that we 24 just went through was -- 25 MS. PIEPER: Has nothing to do with this agenda 3-14-13 35 1 item, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Would you let me finish my 3 sentence, please? 4 MS. PIEPER: Yes, sir, I will. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Was very educational. So, 6 it was some positives; some crazy stuff as well. But are we 7 going to go to jail if we break this policy of the hiring 8 freeze? I mean, this is -- this could be an awful thing that 9 we're doing here today. 10 MS. PIEPER: No, y'all have done it more than once. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. No, I 12 understand that. I don't have a problem with it at all. You 13 need -- you need staff to take care of -- again, 14 Commissioners Court is -- the law says that we have to 15 provide you with an office that runs in an efficient manner 16 or something like that. And so -- 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is the one that's moving 18 upstairs, is that a higher -- higher pay grade than what 19 you're going to advertise? 20 MS. PIEPER: Yes. I believe that step and grade 21 that she's at is a 14.3, and I will hire at a 14.1. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 14.1, okay. 23 MS. PIEPER: So it will be a little bit of savings. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, be no adverse budgetary 25 impact. 3-14-13 36 1 MS. PIEPER: Be a little bit of savings. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I move approval. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 5 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor, signify by 6 raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: You were just voting early, right? 9 I thought you had a question. 10 COMMISSIONER MOSER: No. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We got anything else to come 12 before this particular meeting? Looks like not. We're 13 adjourned. 14 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 3:45 p.m.) 15 - - - - - - - - - - 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3-14-13 37 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 official reporter for the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 18th day of March, 2013. 8 9 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 10 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 11 Certified Shorthand Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3-14-13