1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Workshop 10 Monday, June 10, 2013 11 1:30 p.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 TOM MOSER, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X June 10, 2013 2 PAGE 3 1. Discussion regarding options to return Upper Turtle Creek Cemetery and School to the Turtle 4 Creek Community 3 5 2. Discussion regarding the criteria and qualifications for applicants for Kerr County’s 6 First Responders program 28 7 --- Adjourned 37 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, June 10, 2013, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop of 2 the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Good afternoon, ladies and 7 gentlemen. Thank you for being here for this Commissioners 8 Court workshop scheduled for today, Monday, June 10th, 2013, 9 at 1:30 p.m. It is that time now. We've got a couple of 10 items on the workshop agenda, the first being a discussion 11 regarding options to return Upper Turtle Creek Cemetery and 12 School to the Turtle Creek Community. Why don't we wring 13 that one out, and then we'll go from there. Commissioner 14 Baldwin? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's do that. Thank you, 16 sir. When we first started talking about doing the remodel 17 out at Turtle Creek, we talked about doing exactly what we're 18 doing right now, that the County was going to go in and do 19 some -- do some major things and get that done, and then in 20 time, to turn it back in to the -- to the community out 21 there. And we're just about -- just about to that point. 22 Just -- I thought that we were through, that we'd gotten the 23 floor and the windows and all those trees and all that stuff 24 done and ready to turn back for the everyday maintenance to 25 the community out there. And then just recently, I had 6-10-13 wk 4 1 something turned in to me that I thought was kind of 2 interesting. It's an old stage curtain that goes in that 3 school that I'd heard about before, but I'd never seen it. 4 And a guy brought it to me, and it's -- if you remember, you 5 go into the old school, and to the other end is a little step 6 up, and there's a stage there. Well, there -- this curtain, 7 I'm assuming that it connects with the ceiling and drops 8 down, and it's really -- it's canvas, and I understand that 9 there is some hill country scenery painted on it, and -- and 10 advertising. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Advertising. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- advertising from 13 Schreiner's store and Pampell's and St. Charles Hotel and 14 some of those old kinds of things. So, we had -- it's all 15 wrapped up and sealed up, and I have not unwrapped it, but 16 I'm going to. And I'd like to take that thing out there and 17 just -- and meet -- I see some of the sewing circle ladies in 18 the back, and I'd like to meet with them out there, and a few 19 of us have a discussion about whether that thing can -- will 20 it fit back in? Is there something we can do? That, and I 21 have also got my hands on a couple of the old desks that came 22 out of there that are -- I wouldn't know where to start 23 trying to fix that, 'cause there's not hardly anything left 24 of them, but we want -- I want to talk about that. I want to 25 take them out there, and let's get -- get an expert friend 6-10-13 wk 5 1 that knows how to do things like that, and see what's 2 possible. 3 So, those two new items are -- I'm saying now I'd 4 like to get done before we turn it back over. But that may 5 be one week; it may be a month. I have no idea. So, anyway, 6 I just wanted to throw that out. So, the County Attorney and 7 I have been talking about what is a good procedure, a proper 8 procedure, a legal procedure for us to turn the thing back 9 over to the community, and I don't know if it's to sign a 10 title over or what. I think -- I think the County Attorney's 11 going to make a small presentation here and give us several 12 options of ways to legally get it back into the hands of the 13 community, and I'm pretty excited about hearing about it. So 14 -- but, Rob, if you'd come forth -- I know you already come 15 third, so it's time to come forth now, and talk about some of 16 those options, please. 17 MR. HENNEKE: Thank you. Gentlemen, last week, in 18 anticipation of today's budget workshop, I e-mailed you some 19 of the background information about the schoolhouse and 20 cemetery. Looks like Judge Tinley has it right there. The 21 -- by way of background, the County acquired the property by 22 deed from the Kerrville Independent School District in 1977, 23 wherein K.I.S.D. deeded both the property that the 24 schoolhouse is on and the property that the cemetery is on to 25 the County. Both those deeds contain reversion clauses where 6-10-13 wk 6 1 the property is automatically reverted back to K.I.S.D. if 2 the conditions set forth in the deed are no longer met. And 3 for the school, it's so long as the property is used as a 4 community or public meeting place for residents of Turtle 5 Creek Community area and their guests, or organized groups, 6 and a cemetery, so long as each property is used and 7 maintained as a cemetery for the interment of present, 8 former, or future residents of the Turtle Creek Community 9 area, or the descendants of such residents. So, we -- the 10 County, to some extent, is limited in its options on what 11 it's able to do with that property, because the County 12 itself, I don't think, can divest itself of that property, 13 other than it going back to Kerrville Independent School 14 District. 15 The biggest issue out there is the cemetery. 16 There's state law rules and requirements that govern 17 cemeteries, and in the information that I've provided to 18 y'all from -- from the archives of Judge Emerson, the 19 cemetery out there is a historic cemetery, and right now Kerr 20 County has responsibility for that cemetery, although it's 21 kind of an open question out there really who is overseeing 22 it and what rules are in place. And -- and say someone wants 23 to be buried out there. How do they do that? Where do they 24 go? I mean, I guess right now, by default, it would be to 25 this Commissioners Court. And it's certainly against my -- 6-10-13 wk 7 1 my recommendation for the County to get into the cemetery 2 business. I don't think that that's a responsibility that 3 y'all want to have. But we need to answer that question, 4 because we can't just have things happening out there. And I 5 think to some extent, there's just -- it's been kind of folks 6 just trying to make things work. Decisions are getting made 7 which don't -- aren't coming through this Commissioners 8 Court, and I'm not sure really who those are being tracked by 9 or how those are happening. 10 So, the cemetery issue, in my mind, is the most 11 important issue out there. And because it's a cemetery, a 12 historic cemetery, there are very limited options out there 13 for what Kerr County can do with it. The best option in my 14 mind -- so Kerr County can't just give it to the 15 neighborhood, to Turtle Creek neighborhood, the group down 16 there. The best option out there is that there's provision 17 in the Health and Safety Code whereas a nonprofit historic 18 cemetery association can file a petition through the District 19 Court and seek authority for that nonprofit organization to 20 have the authority to operate and maintain the cemetery. 21 There's been a lot of discussions in the past, work that was 22 being done before I became County Attorney that I kind of 23 inherited, that in some way was moving towards that goal. 24 And I think that that would be a good option for this Court 25 to look at, if there was a group out there organized 6-10-13 wk 8 1 sufficiently and with sufficient funding to be able to pursue 2 those steps. 3 One of the -- the down sides of that process is, 4 because it's a separate stand-alone nonprofit organization 5 that has to exist, and then go to District Court and, even if 6 it's in a friendly nature, still sue Kerr County to acquire 7 control over the cemetery, I can't do that work on their 8 behalf, because it's an adversarial position; I'm 9 representing the County. But I don't see -- from my legal 10 perspective, I wouldn't have much opposition or concern about 11 cooperating with a group in order to hand over the authority 12 for that cemetery in that type of situation. If we don't do 13 that, or if we don't do something like that, then there is a 14 provision to establish a perpetual trust fund for the 15 maintenance of the cemetery, where the Commissioners Court 16 shall appoint the County Judge as the trustee for the 17 cemetery. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, that may be the one 19 right there. (Laughter.) 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Oh. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Very cumbersome. I don't think you 22 want to consider it. 23 MR. HENNEKE: And then if the County Judge vacates 24 the position, then -- then it falls to the District Judge to 25 appoint a successor. But then that's a way to create 6-10-13 wk 9 1 authority for someone to establish the rules for the 2 cemetery. Nothing in the statute says that comes with any 3 funding or -- or ability to raise revenue, and I think that 4 that type of responsibility would take a considerable amount 5 of work to -- to make sure and keep up with the cemetery 6 and -- and rules on how to bury people and -- and, you know, 7 all the regulations that go along with that. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rob, when you talk about the 9 County Judge being the overseer, or a District Judge 10 appointing someone to be an overseer, is that a single 11 person, or could that be a board of directors? 12 MR. HENNEKE: It's a person. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A person. 14 MR. HENNEKE: Yes, sir. Now, I would -- I would 15 guess it would fall within the statute that that person could 16 have, you know, persons to assist him, but the 17 responsibility -- it says the Court appoints the County 18 Judge. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 20 MR. HENNEKE: If the County Judge vacates that 21 position, then the District Judge shall appoint a person to 22 assume that role. 23 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So, to review the bidding 24 right now, the County is not fulfilling its responsibility as 25 far as the cemetery is concerned. 6-10-13 wk 10 1 MR. HENNEKE: Correct. 2 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So -- and there's restrictions 3 according to state law on what we can do to vacate or pass 4 that property onto some -- somebody else. 5 MR. HENNEKE: They're twofold; there's the deed 6 restrictions that are in the deeds where, back in '77, the 7 land was given to the County in the first place. 8 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I see. 9 MR. HENNEKE: And they're also from state law 10 regulations that regulate cemeteries, not just here in Kerr 11 County, but all over the state. 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So, my question, could the 13 County work with K.I.S.D. and say, "This is what we'd like to 14 do"? We ask K.I.S.D. to pass this property onto this other 15 entity? 16 MR. HENNEKE: The -- I think that's an interesting 17 question in terms of the cemetery. As I understand the 18 statute, a suit by a nonprofit historical cemetery 19 organization gives them authority to restore, operate, and 20 maintain the cemetery, but the statute doesn't say that title 21 in the property transfers to that nonprofit. Authority to 22 operate it and maintain it does. So, I don't know for sure 23 that that type of action would trigger the reversion clause 24 in the deed restriction that would bring K.I.S.D. in as a 25 necessary party in the litigation. And, really, because it's 6-10-13 wk 11 1 a cemetery, there is nothing else that can be done with that 2 land. Once you establish a cemetery, it's pretty difficult 3 to ever use that land for any other purpose, and I would say 4 it's just impractical, if not impossible, for our discussion 5 purposes. 6 Now, that's the cemetery. The schoolhouse is a 7 separate tract of land, and that's a little bit different. I 8 see the schoolhouse as akin to, you know, the Union Church 9 facility that we have, where it's a historic building. It's 10 property owned by the County, and I guess currently 11 maintained by the County. And, you know, the -- there is a 12 reversion clause in there. Now, we couldn't put a fire 13 station on there, or we couldn't use the property for, you 14 know, a different purpose without it automatically reverting 15 back to the school district. And I guess if the 16 Commissioners Court declared that we're not -- you know, 17 we're not going to use that property any more for that 18 purpose, then it would automatically revert. So, it's -- 19 we're limited in -- we couldn't -- I don't think that the 20 County could even transfer title or use of that property; 21 certainly not sell it or anything like that, because of this 22 reversion clause. 23 If -- you know, one option that I came up with that 24 I discussed a little bit with you, Commissioner Baldwin, is 25 what if we combine the two properties and made it one -- one 6-10-13 wk 12 1 property, so that if you did have a nonprofit cemetery 2 historical -- or historical cemetery association, and then 3 formed themselves a petition to District Court to take over 4 the cemetery, then they would also have the schoolhouse on 5 the same property, and it would all be, you know, in one 6 facility. But we have a lot more options in terms of the 7 schoolhouse with, you know, it being a county facility that 8 we can set rules for and reserve it, and, you know, Jody can 9 keep a schedule on it or anything like that. And the 10 question, that I guess hasn't really been firmed up until 11 now, is is the County going to assume 100 percent of the 12 responsibility of maintenance and upkeep, kind of like we've 13 been doing with the Union Church facility? Or do we want to 14 talk about some kind of shared relationship, maybe akin to 15 what we've done with the baseball fields in the past, where 16 we've had other groups that have assisted with, you know, the 17 upkeep and operation and so forth. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rob, is the Turtle Creek 19 Schoolhouse the only one that the County owns, or are there 20 others? I mean, I know the two in eastern Kerr County are 21 owned by community -- by the community, Cypress Creek and 22 Lane Valley. 23 MR. HENNEKE: Only schoolhouse? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Those two, I was wondering. 25 MR. HENNEKE: Is Turtle Creek is the only 6-10-13 wk 13 1 schoolhouse the County has? To my knowledge, yes. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, but it seems to me -- 3 and it's worked pretty good in the eastern part of the 4 county; letting the community of Lane Valley run their 5 schoolhouse and the community of Cypress Creek run their 6 schoolhouse. I mean, it's not always -- and they've both 7 been used for community purposes and used for events. And it 8 seems like it works a lot better if the County's not 9 involved. That's just, you know, -- 10 MR. HENNEKE: You know, I -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- my feeling. 12 MR. HENNEKE: You know, for the County to divest 13 itself of the property that it owns, you know, just as if we 14 were going to sell a non-historically significant tract of 15 land, you've got the competitive bidding requirements under 16 the Local Government Code to where, assuming that we could 17 get K.I.S.D. to waive this reversion clause, and they 18 probably would, you know, if you wanted to totally divest the 19 County of it, you could put it up for sale. But then, you 20 know, you can't really control who comes in and is the 21 highest bidder. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My recollection from being on 23 the school board is that the -- the statute that probably got 24 it K.I.S.D. -- that got it to K.I.S.D. is that school 25 districts couldn't divest it directly to communities. So, if 6-10-13 wk 14 1 we gave it back to them and they could give it to the 2 community, then we don't have to worry about it. 3 MR. HENNEKE: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That's where I was going with 5 it. 6 MR. HENNEKE: Yes, we could -- I mean, I think 7 Commissioners Court could declare -- basically declare that 8 it's, you know, -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We want to use it for something 10 we can't. 11 MR. HENNEKE: -- not complying with the restriction 12 in the deed, and it's an automatic reversion clause. Now, 13 that doesn't answer the larger issue in my mind of cemetery. 14 I mean, the two are, I think, culturally associated, and -- 15 but, yeah, there is a reversion clause, and it's automatic, 16 and if the County took an action, then it would go back to 17 K.I.S.D. for them to address. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I wouldn't want to do that 19 without having some communication probably with K.I.S.D. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Absolutely. 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Good idea. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If you want any kind of 23 assurance of anything. 24 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That seems like a very clean 25 way to do it. 6-10-13 wk 15 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't see anything 2 really -- you know, if the County Judge were to be -- let's 3 just throw it out. Not saying this is the way that I would 4 prefer, but one way to look at it, if the County Judge was in 5 charge of it, he could appoint a group of citizens to operate 6 it. He would just be the overseer. Would that work? As 7 long as he was overseeing, didn't matter how the job got 8 done; the County would still be in charge, still have 9 ownership. 10 MR. HENNEKE: It could. There's -- there would 11 still have to be someone to make sure that the state law 12 requirements are being followed. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sure. 14 MR. HENNEKE: I mean, that does require a certain 15 level of expertise. I don't -- I don't have that expertise. 16 I'm not in the business. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What about a lease -- 18 long-term lease? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe like the Little League 20 situation, a long-term license or agreement or something. 21 MR. HENNEKE: The statute doesn't provide for that 22 option, and I don't -- I don't know. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Especially a cemetery. 24 MR. HENNEKE: Since it does delineate, you know, 25 here's the five things you can do with it, you know, I don't 6-10-13 wk 16 1 know if you could add a sixth. So, I'm happy to take any -- 2 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Having a discussion with 3 K.I.S.D., like Commissioner Letz is saying, would be a good 4 first step. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And probably the second step -- 6 Buster, you may know the answer to this. Is there a group 7 that would want to take it all over permanently? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have no idea. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the other issue. 10 There's no point in talking to K.I.S.D. -- 11 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That's true. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- unless there's a group 13 that's willing to go form a, probably, 501(c)(3). Does 14 your -- 15 MS. LANTZ: We're working on it right now. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's going to have -- 17 you're going to have to get a group to put -- they're going 18 to have to have a board. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 AUDIENCE: We already have that. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Have to apply to I.R.S. to 22 get the designation before you could even think about it. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there such an organization in 24 existence? 25 MR. BELEW: Yes. 6-10-13 wk 17 1 MR. MARVIN NEUNHOFFER: That's what I was going to 2 say. It exists already. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Is it chartered under the Texas 4 nonprofit corporation? 5 MR. BELEW: 501(c)(3). 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Have you gotten your I.R.S. 7 clearance letter? 8 MR. BELEW: Yes. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Plus your Comptroller's state 10 clearance letter, I assume? 11 MR. BELEW: Mm-hmm. 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That answered that question. 13 MR. HENNEKE: District Court is upstairs. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it seems cleaner and 17 easier to give it to K.I.S.D. Let them -- I don't know what 18 the laws are at all about what they can and can't do, but I 19 just know that a lot of -- some of the school districts in 20 the state, the old schoolhouses went straight from the school 21 district to communities, and some went from the school 22 district to the county. I don't know. In Gillespie County, 23 I think they all went to the county, but -- 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If I heard correctly, there 25 is a nonprofit now with all the documentation. They can 6-10-13 wk 18 1 operate the thing. 2 MR. HENNEKE: Yeah, they can petition the District 3 Court, file a suit, and -- and through that, have the 4 District Court grant them the operation and maintenance of 5 the cemetery -- the whole thing, really. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then -- and then what 7 about the deed? Whose name is the property in? 8 MR. HENNEKE: For the cemetery? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 10 MR. HENNEKE: It is -- as I see it, the deed -- 11 Kerr County continues to be the owner of the land, but 12 without authority to operate and maintain the cemetery. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's not a bad place to 14 be. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That's something to be done directly 16 without having to go back to the K.I.S.D. You can do that, 17 whereas with the other one you go back to K.I.S.D., or there 18 may be some provision under state law that allows schools to 19 convey, again, directly to a nonprofit neighborhood group, 20 for example, that you could convey the cemetery to, and 21 that's -- we're looking at all the options that are available 22 for historic cemeteries. I don't suppose you've -- you 23 haven't researched the school side of it, have you? 24 MR. HENNEKE: I've treated the school, Judge, as 25 a -- you know, I haven't come across any special designation 6-10-13 wk 19 1 that would make it different than any other county facility 2 that the County owns. And it is a separate piece of property 3 than the cemetery. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: What I was speaking of is whether or 5 not you researched the aspect of whether the school could 6 convey the property, the title plus the responsibility for 7 the operation of a historic cemetery, directly to a -- a 8 neighborhood organization such as a 501(c)(3), for example. 9 MR. HENNEKE: I would -- I could get with K.I.S.D. 10 counsel on the school and the cemetery, because there are 11 specific statutory provisions in the Health and Safety Code. 12 I'm going to say probably not, but I don't know if there's -- 13 I can find out if there's a specific schoolhouse provision. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But if -- if we replatted 16 the two properties and made them one, if you take one, you 17 got them both. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, sir? 19 MR. STROHACKER: My name is Louis Strohacker. My 20 understanding is that those were all one piece of property at 21 one time. And after K.I.S.D. took over the property, I 22 believe in '58, then, you know, some time passed, and they 23 decided that they didn't want to be involved in the operation 24 of the property, and the community organization was formed. 25 And there was a bidding process, and I don't know that I have 6-10-13 wk 20 1 the name exactly correct, but there was a Turtle Creek School 2 and Cemetery Association, and they won the bid, paid the 3 money, and it was deeded to them. And for some reason, they 4 chose to have the County hold the title for them, and that's 5 how Kerr County wound up with the title. But they operated 6 it until relatively recently, the last couple years, when the 7 County, I'm going to say, decided to lock everybody out 8 and -- and so on. So, anyway, that's how we got to where we 9 are now. And I just thought that the history of how we got 10 to where we are might be somewhat relevant. But you did have 11 an organization that was running it. They won -- they're the 12 community -- which it's basically the community that won the 13 bid from the school district when they decided to get rid of 14 it. They paid for it. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you're saying all those 16 parts are still in place? Is that -- 17 MR. STROHACKER: Basically. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah? 19 MR. STROHACKER: Yes. Now, how the -- you know, my 20 understanding was that that was all one piece of property, 21 and it may have got divided when they -- when they condemned 22 the right-of-way for 173 through the middle of it, because 23 when that happened, they actually -- the cemetery wound up 24 with more land than they started with. And the school 25 district lost a fairly good chunk of what they had. In fact, 6-10-13 wk 21 1 the road moved almost completely off of the -- the original 2 -- I say "original" -- the previous right-of-way onto what 3 was basically school property at that time. And so it, you 4 know, moved probably almost the whole width of the 5 right-of-way, you know, towards the schoolhouse. So, any -- 6 anyway, but my understanding is at least that when -- when 7 the school district found out they had a cemetery and a 8 historic schoolhouse, they decided they didn't want to be 9 involved in it. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Maybe they were the smarter one of 11 the group. 12 MR. HENNEKE: Right. 13 MR. STROHACKER: Yeah. Yeah. Now, I can't explain 14 why, unless the people -- the people involved thought that 15 maybe the County might be a more permanent organization to 16 hold the title, you know, should everybody lose interest in 17 it or whatever. I don't -- you know, I can't -- I can't tell 18 you what past thinking was, but I do know that much of the 19 history. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would it be -- Rob, based on 21 this, would it be possible to -- for K.I.S.D. and the County 22 together to jointly assign it, or would that be -- rather 23 than go back to them, just to jointly assign it to the group? 24 'Cause -- I mean, with a reversionary clause if it's not 25 used -- I think most of these agreements around the state 6-10-13 wk 22 1 have reversionary clauses. If they're not used for community 2 purposes, they revert back to the school district. 3 MR. HENNEKE: I mean, I'm not aware of any -- any 4 provision that allows the County to divest itself of title 5 and land, other than through the competitive -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Due process. 7 MR. HENNEKE: -- bidding process under the Local 8 Government Code, whether it's by auction on the courthouse 9 steps or by sealed bid. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Neunhoffer? 11 MR. MARVIN NEUNHOFFER: Would it be possible to 12 approach K.I.S.D. and see if they would renege their claim to 13 the reversionary clause? 14 MR. HENNEKE: They can -- 15 MR. MARVIN NEUNHOFFER: That just kind of floats in 16 my mind. They probably have no interest in dealing with any 17 of this either. If we could get that out of the picture, 18 then Kerr County can do with it as -- as we see fit for the 19 community benefit. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we've got -- initially, we 21 have the difficulty of how we divest Kerr County of title. 22 And seemingly one way to do that would be for there to be a 23 -- either an acknowledgment by Kerr County, or an 24 acquiescence to an allegation by K.I.S.D. that we're not 25 complying with the conditions of the conveyance; therefore it 6-10-13 wk 23 1 reverted. And then have the conveyance go directly -- which, 2 of course, would then -- there would be an acknowledgment 3 that title is reverted to K.I.S.D., and then K.I.S.D. would, 4 as part of the whole process -- excuse me -- convey that over 5 to, for example, the neighborhood group. 6 MR. MARVIN NEUNHOFFER: Unless they get caught in 7 some legal tailspin with the state what they can and can't do 8 with the property. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, they've got to be in a legal 10 position to -- to do all those things also. 11 MR. JULIUS NEUNHOFFER: Well, if these other 12 community schools, Cypress Creek and Lane Valley, have gone 13 this way, it seems that this could happen here too, you know. 14 MR. MARVIN NEUNHOFFER: What was the vehicle that 15 they used to go from a public school entity to a 16 community-held -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that would be something 18 we'd -- that we'd explore legally with the K.I.S.D. people. 19 MR. JULIUS NEUNHOFFER: And they were both in Kerr 20 County, too. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only difference is there's a 22 cemetery involved here, which does add a whole different 23 possible set of problems. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The cemetery's a problem for 25 the whole thing. 6-10-13 wk 24 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, the cemetery, I think you'd 2 have to handle it totally as a separate -- as a separate 3 transaction, separate entity. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, until there's some, 5 probably, communication with -- between K.I.S.D., that's the 6 next step, it seems. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: What else have you got, Mr. Baldwin? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think that we need to kind 9 of land on that somehow. I like the idea of feeling K.I.S.D. 10 out, and just kind of see what -- you know, see if you can 11 carry on a conversation with them about these issues. One 12 would be more of a -- as Marvin said, maybe waive that thing. 13 I mean, I don't know how y'all do that, but it's a good 14 question, I think. Seems to me if you can get that -- get 15 that waived, then you're kind of through the gate and running 16 a little bit, but I don't know. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, on a schoolhouse, 18 Commissioner, if you -- if you want to try and use a vehicle 19 to transfer title out of Kerr County and into a neighborhood 20 group, if it goes back to the school under a reverter, for 21 example, and then the school reconveys to the neighborhood 22 association, they could put the -- the restriction or 23 reverter, whatever they wanted, into the conveyance to the 24 neighborhood association. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 6-10-13 wk 25 1 JUDGE TINLEY: With respect to the cemetery, 2 they've got an existing recognized nonprofit that could 3 petition the District Court for the authority to maintain, 4 operate, and so forth under the historical cemetery 5 designation. That would implead Kerr County. I think as a 6 practical matter, you'd want to implead K.I.S.D. so that, as 7 part and parcel of that judgment, they're a party, so they're 8 bound by the judgment. And if they want to assert that it 9 reverts, fine. Let them do it there. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: But title, in that instance, would 12 remain in Kerr County, but we'd have virtually no authority, 13 because all the authority is vested in this neighborhood 14 group by the District Court order. That gets you totally out 15 of the picture on the school, and out of the picture as much 16 as possible on the cemetery. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, thinking along those 18 lines -- and I wouldn't want y'all to go out and hire a 19 lawyer quite yet, but I think -- I think we're heading in a 20 good direction. In my opinion, we are. I like what's going 21 on. 22 MR. HENNEKE: I will get with Mr. Troxel and his 23 attorneys on the schoolhouse issue. On the cemetery issue, 24 you know, maybe there needs to be some more thinking. But 25 there is, established by statute, a mechanism for that, so 6-10-13 wk 26 1 I -- I could point whoever at the statute, but it's pretty 2 well laid out. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Seems to me that 4 Commissioners Court could just say, "Hey, you guys put 5 something together out there and get busy. We'll see you." 6 That's the way it should be, and I think that's probably the 7 way it always has been. But it sounds like that it's not a 8 good way to do it that way. So, we're going to come back in 9 two weeks? 10 MR. HENNEKE: Sure. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And talk about this again? 12 Are y'all for that? All right, that's what we'll do. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, ma'am, you had a comment? 14 MS. GAUDIER: Yes, I do. The Turtle Creek curtain, 15 the stage curtain that you mentioned, is something that we 16 were hoping we might be able to use in a historic display. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I know that. 18 MS. GAUDIER: And so I know that it's a little tied 19 up in here, so I don't know if we're going to be able to use 20 that, or if we should just look at another theme to start off 21 with, but I thought I'd ask about that. That's a 22 possibility. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm going to take that 24 curtain to the Turtle Creek School this week. 25 MS. GAUDIER: Okay. 6-10-13 wk 27 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And we're going to meet out 2 there with some folks and visit about it and take a look at 3 it. And if there's any way that the thing is going to be 4 able to be installed back in the Turtle Creek School, we're 5 going to keep it there. 6 MS. GAUDIER: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 'Cause that's where it 8 belongs. 9 MS. GAUDIER: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think y'all understand 11 that. 12 MS. GAUDIER: Sure. We just thought if it was 13 going to be rolled up, wasn't able to be used somewhere for a 14 while, that we might be able to use it for that display. But 15 if we can't -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's going out there this 17 week, and I'll be happy to let you know what our decision's 18 going to be. 19 MS. GAUDIER: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 21 MS. GAUDIER: I appreciate it. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: We got that one wrung out pretty 23 good? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, I do. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other comments? Thoughts? Yes, 6-10-13 wk 28 1 ma'am? 2 AUDIENCE: Is there any way the board can get their 3 key back? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: If you'll stand up and -- 5 AUDIENCE: Is there any way the board can get their 6 key back? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have any keys. 8 AUDIENCE: Who has the key? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You do. I've got a new 10 lock. 11 MR. MARVIN NEUNHOFFER: Yeah. 12 AUDIENCE: Can we get a key to the new locks right 13 now? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, ma'am, not yet. 15 AUDIENCE: Why? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we go to the second one, 17 Judge, please? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's talk about First 19 Responders, discussion regarding criteria and qualifications 20 for applicants for Kerr County's First Responders program. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Several months 22 ago, Eric Maloney contacted me and felt like that it was just 23 super important to -- 24 AUDIENCE: Thank you for your time. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- put together an agreement 6-10-13 wk 29 1 of some sort so that when new responders -- new folks have a 2 desire to become first -- in the First Responders 3 organization, Eric suggested that we take three steps. One 4 would be an application. He wanted the County to have an 5 application available for people that wanted to be a First 6 Responder. B, that we would do a background check like 7 something that Rusty might do, and C, do some kind of 8 background on medical issues on a person. Well, we've been 9 kicking that around in here in the courthouse for a couple of 10 months now, and can't seem to get to a bottom line on the 11 thing. And the Judge and I have met with the -- our city 12 counterparts in regards to EMS and fire contracts, as y'all 13 well know. In both of those meetings, the mayor brought this 14 issue up, and he was pretty adamant about it. So, I think 15 the thing is probably birthed from the mayor, and that really 16 makes me want to take a close look at this thing. 17 I don't have a big issue -- personally, I don't 18 have a big issue of someone filling out an application to be 19 a First Responder. I don't see anything wrong with that. 20 And I don't have a big heartburn about doing a background 21 check -- Rusty doing a background, or someone doing a 22 background check for us just to make sure they're not wanted 23 for 12 murders in old Ingram. But the medical thing is where 24 I draw the line. We can't -- I don't want any part of that; 25 don't know how to deal with it. But I don't want us -- my 6-10-13 wk 30 1 name is not going to be on anything around that, and I'd 2 prefer the County's name not be around that, us asking for 3 medical information. I just don't -- I think it's the wrong 4 thing to do. But that's kind of where we are. 5 And Eric sent me an e-mail a couple weeks ago 6 saying, "Hey, I have a group -- I have some folks out there 7 that want to be First Responders, and I'm holding them up 8 because you guys haven't adopted the new program." So, I 9 wrote him back and said, "No, and we may not. Who knows 10 what's going to happen here? So go ahead and sign them up, 11 just like you always have." I mean, I don't -- I don't 12 understand what his issue was. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: What is the, quote, new program, 14 unquote? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Adopting this thing that 16 they're asking us to do, the application. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Et cetera, et cetera, 19 et cetera. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, I haven't gone 21 through all the backup information. I'm not sure you have -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know if there is 23 any. It's all right here. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But my question is on it -- you 25 know, first of all, it seems to be working pretty good right 6-10-13 wk 31 1 now, so I'm not real inclined to make any changes to it, 2 period. The more involved we get or the City gets, the less 3 likely we are to get First Responders, in my opinion, because 4 they're trying to help. They're not trying to be part of a 5 bureaucracy. So, that right there is kind of like... 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Background checks -- I don't 8 mind them putting down -- I think we should, you know, find 9 out who they are. Background checks, okay, does that mean 10 that, you know, some guy who's 55 years old now and had a 11 stellar career, got a DUI when he was 18, that he can't be a 12 First Responder? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I don't know. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As soon as you do that, then 15 you have criteria. And what does that have to do -- a lot of 16 those things, like if someone got convicted of, you know, 17 some criminal offense, even if it's a felony, it may have 18 nothing to do with what he's trying to do and save someone's 19 life. And I don't -- you know, as soon as you do a 20 background check, I think you need to decide what you're 21 going to do with the information you find, and I really don't 22 want to -- I can't see the reason why I want to know that. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If they're going to volunteer 25 their time, my preference would be that they kind of work 6-10-13 wk 32 1 through our volunteer fire departments, as most of them are 2 doing. I don't want us to get more involved. The more 3 involved we get, the more problems I see. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, a lot of them do work 5 through the volunteer fire departments, and a lot of them 6 don't. I mean they're just free people out there, just -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're trying to help. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- regular people that want 9 to help somebody. And -- and a lot of these guys -- a lot of 10 members of the First Responder organization are city of 11 Kerrville firefighters, EMS-type folks. So, you know, you 12 have all that -- I think it's probably -- in my opinion, it's 13 the most beautiful thing in America today, is this volunteer 14 issue. And those people, late at night, throw their jacket 15 on, go to the car wreck and try keep people alive until the 16 ambulance gets there. That's what they do, and they don't 17 get their picture in the paper and don't talk about it, and 18 et cetera, et cetera. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I agree. Volunteers are 20 still volunteers, and if they're willing to do that, if you 21 start putting restrictions and stuff on them, I don't -- I 22 don't get it. Maybe -- maybe there's something we don't 23 know, but -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I -- you know, I can 25 draw some pictures, you know, that get ugly. Like, as an 6-10-13 wk 33 1 example, let's say that we have a First Responder that has 2 some kind of blood disorder or something, and goes to a car 3 wreck and commingles the blood, and the guy dies or whatever. 4 You know, something like that. Are we responsible? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the more involvement we 6 have, the more responsible we get. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's what I -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: What we're trying to do is stay away 10 from having these people classified legally, either on the 11 front end, or worse yet, on the back end, at the end of the 12 lawsuit, as our employees. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: And the more we get involved in how 15 they're selected, trained, and other involvement that we get 16 with them, the more likely that's to occur. Now, if the 17 medical director of the program deems it necessary for First 18 Responders to undergo a series of medical tests to determine 19 that they don't have communicable diseases, for example, 20 that's the medical director's -- that's his -- that's his 21 responsibility, I would think. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Which we pay some salary to. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I don't think 24 we ought to be getting involved in that, because that's a 25 medical issue. 6-10-13 wk 34 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I agree. And the 2 background check, Rusty's going to refuse to do it, so that's 3 a dead issue, in my opinion. Oh, when did you get here? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mm-hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- I mean, I don't 6 understand -- if you do a background check, you got to have 7 criteria, and who's making these criteria? I'm not. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not either. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Hmm-mm. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, therefore, why do a 11 background check? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just passing along to 13 you guys an issue that has come up, that Eric brought to me, 14 and the mayor has mentioned on two different occasions. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I like your response to Eric Maloney 16 that this may never happen, so you just keep on keeping on. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just keep on doing what you 18 have done. Now, the mayor wanted us to put this thing in 19 place and put it in the ambulance agreement, which -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Nothing to do with an ambulance 21 agreement. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- it just doesn't belong 23 there. I can see -- I can almost see a separate county 24 policy kind of thing, something like that. But putting it in 25 an agreement with another entity, I just -- I don't get it. 6-10-13 wk 35 1 I don't know, but I want to bring it to you guys. I want 2 y'all to participate in this decision-making thing, and let's 3 get on down the road. I think that we have a consensus. Do 4 you want to add anything to it? 5 MR. HENNEKE: No, sir. I agree with everything 6 y'all are saying. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, do we have a 8 formal -- have you got an e-mail? Is that how we -- and the 9 mayor mentioned it to you? Do we have a formal letter from 10 the City? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. No. Eric called me on 12 the phone and said these things to me, and then -- I might 13 have something from the mayor; I'm not sure. He's mentioned 14 it verbally for sure. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just wondering -- I mean, 18 if we need to make a formal response to a formal request, to 19 me, it's -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, "no" works real well 21 for me. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, we're not interested. 23 We're -- we're -- the policy's working fine the way it is, or 24 the program's working fine the way it is. We don't see any 25 reason to make any changes. I mean -- 6-10-13 wk 36 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: More involvement we don't 2 need. Need less. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. What if there is a -- 4 I mean, we've seen goofier type things happen. What if they 5 say, "Okay, if you don't do these things, no more ambulance"? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's their choice. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: We can't control what -- how they 8 respond. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I just don't -- I don't 10 understand why the City would want more involvement in the 11 First Responder program, or they'd want us to have more 12 involvement. So, to me, unless -- if they want it, they can 13 come back during Commissioners Court and request it. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. That's all I know. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That's all you got on this? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, that's it. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody else got anything more on 18 it? Anything else to go on this workshop agenda? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank y'all very much. 20 We're going to come back in two weeks and talk about 21 something -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- with the other one. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, the workshop is adjourned. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 6-10-13 wk 37 1 (Commissioners Court workshop adjourned at 2:21 p.m.) 2 - - - - - - - - - - 3 4 5 6 STATE OF TEXAS | 7 COUNTY OF KERR | 8 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 9 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 10 official reporter for the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 11 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 12 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 13th day of June, 2013. 13 14 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 15 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 16 Certified Shorthand Reporter 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6-10-13 wk