1 2 3 4 5 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 6 Workshop 7 Friday, February 21, 2014 8 1:30 p.m. 9 District Court Jury Room #1 10 Kerr County Courthouse 11 Kerrville, Texas 12 13 14 PUBLIC DEFENDER PROGRAM 15 16 17 18 PRESENT: H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 TOM MOSER, Commissioner Pct. 2 19 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 20 21 ALSO PRESENT: JUDGE KEITH WILLIAMS PATRICK O'FIEL 22 JUDGE REX EMERSON LUCY PEARSON JUDGE SPENCER BROWN STEVE PICKELL 23 ROSA LAVENDER NORMAN WHITLOW ROB HENNEKE CLAY STEADMAN 24 JEANNIE HARGIS ROB KELLY CLAY BARTON 25 JODY GRINSTEAD 2 1 I N D E X February 21, 2014 2 PAGE 3 Discussion to create a Public Defender program for Kerr County and possibility of applying for grant 4 funds from the Texas Indigent Defense Commission 3 5 Adjourned 52 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Friday, February 21, 2014, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop 2 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 District Court Jury Room #1, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is a Commissioners 7 Court workshop. It is 1:30 Friday, February the 21st. We're 8 in the District Courtroom Jury Room, and welcome, everyone, 9 and thank you for being here. Sorry about the time change 10 this morning. I let that slip by me, and I'll take the blame 11 for it. I may need an attorney before the day's over, so -- 12 but this session is open. And there's a couple of things. I 13 just wanted to open up by talking about -- Bruce and I had 14 talked a couple of times. We both have had an interest just 15 to see how one of these things work. It's just something 16 that interests both of us, so we thought we'd fire a shot at 17 it and see how it worked out. 18 Now, you understand, as the Commissioners Court, 19 our interest is the dollars and cents in the thing, and we 20 can -- we're prepared to -- where is she? There you are. 21 We're prepared to make presentations till the cows come home, 22 but we're going to try to -- this is my idea of what we're 23 going to do, is that we have -- I've had a friend of mine 24 prepare a budget type for a public defender's office, what it 25 would look like, with the chief attorney and two assistant 2-21-14 workshop 4 1 attorneys and et cetera and so forth, and the cost of those 2 things. And then we took -- the County Auditor ran the 3 numbers for me of how much we spend right now county-wide. 4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Do you have extra copies of that? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, this is confidential 6 information. (Laughter.) I know how you lawyers are. And 7 it appears -- you know, and I don't know how -- you know, 8 these -- of course, the numbers that we're -- we spend today 9 are very accurate, but as far as the footprint of what an 10 office would look like, you know, it's going to fluctuate 11 with -- you know, you talk about do we want to provide a car, 12 or -- to the chief lawyer? Or do we want to -- you know, I'm 13 not sure about the -- about the mark-ups, like insurance and 14 retirement and all those kinds of things. I don't know if 15 these numbers are all built in there. But it's just a -- 16 it's just an estimate. It's something to look at, and it's a 17 place to start. 18 COMMISSIONER MOSER: How do we know what numbers 19 you're talking about? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you'd turn on your 21 computer, you'd get them just like the rest of us. 22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: What was the question? What did 23 you -- 24 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I said how do we know what 25 numbers he's talking about. 2-21-14 workshop 5 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm answering the question. 2 Do we have a copy machine up here? Can you guys afford a 3 copy machine? 4 MS. PEARSON: Buster. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 6 MS. GRINSTEAD: I'll do it. 7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Can you get Mary Francis to do 8 that, Lucy? 9 MS. PEARSON: Sure. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Actually, I don't need mine 11 because, you know, we're basically through with that part. 12 But what I'm saying is, this part is -- is what the 13 Commissioners Court is -- is interested in, and -- and how -- 14 thank you so much. Is this yours? 15 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That's yours. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're making some copies. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And hopefully -- and 18 hopefully that the reason that we kind of wanted you judges 19 and you attorneys here today is to kind of tell us how -- how 20 this machine works and how it runs, and -- and to see -- my 21 hope is that we're going to be able to see at the end of the 22 day if there's interest in moving forward. If there's 23 interest in moving forward, we'll go to the next step and 24 start -- put on the dog-and-pony shows and have the folks 25 from the state agencies to come down and do presentations, 2-21-14 workshop 6 1 et cetera. There is -- there is money out there to be had. 2 Rosa has done a tremendous amount of research in that, and 3 it -- the grant money for it -- the grant itself is due on 4 March the 14th, which is right around the corner. So, it is 5 an agenda item for Commissioners Court on Monday, and we'll 6 probably approve it and ask her to move forward and obtain 7 the grant, and then if you guys give us a thumbs down on it, 8 you're not interested in this program, then we'll just put 9 that thing to bed and go on with life. But hopefully you 10 guys will be able to tell us, or let's just have a 11 conversation on how this thing works. What does it do? What 12 would it do? Yes, Mr. Brown? 13 JUDGE BROWN: Yes. Of course, you're talking about 14 misdemeanor court and the two District Courts? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE BROWN: And this is -- a guy with two 17 assistants is going to defend all those -- all those indigent 18 people? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have no idea. I'm asking 20 you that question. 21 JUDGE BROWN: Well, I'm telling you it's going to 22 be pretty tough. 23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: One thing we need to look at, when 24 you said y'all are concerned with the dollars and everything, 25 if you'll look on the second page, we have $239,000 on the 2-21-14 workshop 7 1 bottom three; C.P.S. court-appointed, mental court-appointed, 2 and juvenile probation. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I don't believe any of those would 5 be included in the responsibilities of the indigent defense 6 -- in the indigent defense plan, because I would presume it 7 would be under your -- what you're thinking is the 216th and 8 198th, possibly the County Court at Law. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I'm not thinking -- Rosa, I don't 11 know if they've done it -- if they've included those sort of 12 administrative jobs where we had Court-appointed fees or not. 13 Because, for example, C.P.S., that's civil. 14 MS. LAVENDER: I didn't do this. 15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I'm just saying. So -- 16 MS. LAVENDER: Yeah. 17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That's 175,000, civil. 18 MS. LAVENDER: I think what the public defender's 19 office covers, basically, if you're looking at it, is the 20 juvenile, the misdemeanors, and the felonies. Not anything 21 else. 22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So, what we'd really be talking 23 about for the cost, if that's what it is, you'd have that 24 $654,000 on the second page less the 239,000, which, if I'm 25 right, would be $415,000 that we -- if we're comparing apples 2-21-14 workshop 8 1 and apples. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, you're probably 3 correct. 4 MR. O'FIEL: Maybe the juvenile. Could it be 5 juvenile? They're quasi-criminal/civil. I don't know. 6 MS. LAVENDER: Can you do juvenile cases with the 7 public defender? 8 MR. STEADMAN: You can, but normally a lot of 9 public defenders hire a specialized juvenile -- 10 MS. LAVENDER: Correct. 11 MR. STEADMAN: -- person, because it's -- like you 12 said, it's half Family Code and half -- 13 MS. LAVENDER: And we spend so very little in 14 juvenile court-appointed attorneys. Last year we only spent 15 20,000, so that's such a small amount compared to what we're 16 spending on these other -- 17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Did you get this from Jeannie? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I did. 19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Jeannie, do the entries -- do 20 these entries on the second page include expert fees, 21 psychological exams, -- 22 MS. HARGIS: No. 23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- investigators' fees, things 24 like that? 25 MS. HARGIS: No. 2-21-14 workshop 9 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a separate line. 2 MS. HARGIS: That's a separate line. 3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That's going to be significant 4 too. So -- so, we'll need to see the cost projections on 5 whether or not that would include -- 6 MS. LAVENDER: Okay. 7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: -- those fees as well. 8 MS. LAVENDER: Can I say what I have? 9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am. 10 MS. LAVENDER: This is from the Texas Indigent 11 Defense Commission, and I'll read it slow enough so that 12 y'all can catch it. But let me go back just three years. 13 Our total Kerr County for juvenile misdemeanor and felony -- 14 that includes investigators and experts and stuff -- in 2011, 15 was 382,913. In 2012, it was 470,823. And in 2013, it was 16 498,204. So, we're seeing an increase up. But if you look 17 back in 2010, it was 498,567, so we saw a couple of years in 18 there that it went down, but then this year it's -- or last 19 year, it came back up. 20 JUDGE EMERSON: Rosa, do these stats show you how 21 many actually felony appointments and misdemeanor 22 appointments? 23 MS. LAVENDER: Yes, sir. 24 MS. HARGIS: Yes, it does on mine. 25 MS. LAVENDER: In 2010, you appointed attorneys in 2-21-14 workshop 10 1 1,832 cases. 2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Is that all cases? Misdemeanor, 3 felony, everything? 4 MS. LAVENDER: Right. 5 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 6 MS. LAVENDER: In 2011, which is after we started 7 screening, it went down to 1,082 cases, so about 800 dollars 8 -- 800 cases. 9 JUDGE EMERSON: Right. But how many actual -- 10 MS. LAVENDER: In 2012, it was 867 cases, and then 11 last year we were back up to 1,069. Those are totals. 12 JUDGE EMERSON: How many actual defendants? 13 MS. LAVENDER: I don't have -- 14 JUDGE EMERSON: 'Cause a lot of defendants have 15 three, four, five cases. 16 MS. LAVENDER: Right, and I don't have that. I -- 17 MS. HARGIS: They don't require that on my report. 18 MS. LAVENDER: I can tell you -- I can tell you how 19 many applications we did in 2013 and 2014, and what we've 20 done so far this year if that's helpful statistically. I 21 mean, how many totals. We had 388 felonies and 225-plus 22 misdemeanor cases that we screened, but some of them had 23 multiple cases on the -- on the applications. And then this 24 year, so far, between October 1st and February 14th, we've 25 done 257 felonies and 167-plus misdemeanors. And the reason 2-21-14 workshop 11 1 it's a plus is because Spencer has some of them that they 2 screen during court days that we -- we don't -- we're not 3 doing in our office, so I don't have a firm number on that. 4 But you can see our numbers are higher this year in four and 5 a half months than normal. 6 MR. HENNEKE: May I ask a question real quick? If 7 you had a public defender's office, would you still charge by 8 the hour and assess the defendant court-appointed attorney's 9 fees that they pay back if they're put on probation? And if 10 you do, what number would that be that would offset the -- 11 MR. STEADMAN: I don't believe you could do that, 12 because you're getting grant funding. It's not -- I've never 13 seen a mechanism in a P.D. office to -- 14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Well, then, do we have -- Jeannie, 15 for each of these years, as you know, we almost always, if -- 16 if we can, require restitution to the County for 17 court-appointed defense attorney's fees. And I'm wondering, 18 for each of these years, what the net cost to the county is 19 after restitution has been paid by those who pay it. 20 MS. HARGIS: You know, I don't know that we have a 21 mechanism to find that, 'cause it goes through the 22 Collections department. I don't really see that. All I see 23 is the end result in the revenue line item at the end of the 24 day. 25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Be interesting to know, though, 2-21-14 workshop 12 1 because Tracy covers -- isn't it Tracy that -- 2 JUDGE EMERSON: Terry. 3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Sorry, Terry that does that. I 4 bet she could give us those -- the exact numbers. Be 5 interesting to know, 'cause I know a lot of they them don't, 6 but a lot of them, during probation, that's part of their 7 probation agreement is that they'll pay restitution over the 8 course of probation for those fees. 9 COMMISSIONER MOSER: The net's the real cost. 10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: After -- if you calculate that in, 11 that is the real cost. 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. 13 MR. WHITLOW: Read that last little paragraph. 14 That's out of the paper that says what they received in 2013. 15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: It says 2013 reimbursements from 16 indigent defense, 124,133. 17 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Wow. 18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So that's a number we need to 19 consider also, is -- you know, to calculate the real net loss 20 or cost to the county. 21 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah. 22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That's the number I was looking 23 for. 24 MR. WHITLOW: That's out of the paper. I don't 25 know where they got that number from. 2-21-14 workshop 13 1 MR. STEADMAN: I don't know the answer to that. 2 You can confirm it; you can check and see if there is a 3 mechanism, but, you know, that doesn't mean you can't do it 4 through P.D.'s office. It just -- logically, it doesn't make 5 sense that you could. 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Well, they collect them. I 7 mean, they got a record of what they collect. 8 MR. STEADMAN: P.D.'s office? 9 MS. LAVENDER: We don't have a public defender. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Both the District Clerk and 11 County Clerk. 12 MR. STEADMAN: No, no, what I'm saying is -- 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 'Cause, you know, if they 14 collect these fees whenever, they still -- y'all asked if a 15 public defender's office could get their fees paid back, the 16 attorney's fees reimbursed. I don't -- 17 JUDGE EMERSON: Why couldn't you? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's not what I'm talking 19 about. 20 JUDGE EMERSON: The Code of Criminal Procedure 21 allows recovery, and they qualify. 22 MR. STEADMAN: Because it's a public defender's 23 office that you're receiving grant funding for. 24 MS. HARGIS: If we don't get the grant, though, 25 let's say we just pay for it ourselves. 2-21-14 workshop 14 1 MR. STEADMAN: I don't know the answer to that. 2 MS. LAVENDER: I think you can charge, but it goes 3 toward the match that the County has to make, whatever you 4 can collect, rather than the grant funds themselves. If I 5 remember -- I have the deal here. Let me look it up. But I 6 know there's some ability to recoup from the defendants. I'm 7 not sure exactly how it factors into the deal. 8 COMMISSIONER MOSER: But Buster started off -- the 9 issue was the money the County has to spend, so we need to 10 know that to find out how much net we're spending. 11 MS. HARGIS: Let me ask one question. Why can't we 12 use the C.P.S. state money? Can't we make them use the 13 public defender? 'Cause we pay for those attorneys anyway. 14 MR. O'FIEL: Too many parties; you'd have a 15 conflict. You've got two parents. If P.D.'s office was 16 appointed to the one parent, you'd have a conflict; you can't 17 represent the child and the parents both. 18 JUDGE EMERSON: Need an amicus for the child. 19 MS. HARGIS: So we just -- we're stuck with that. 20 MR. O'FIEL: I don't see how that would be 21 possible, one office representing all parties. 22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Commissioner, are you talking 23 about C.P.S. -- 24 MS. HARGIS: 'Cause that's really our largest cost. 25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think we're -- I think we're 2-21-14 workshop 15 1 primarily dealing with criminal. Maybe you want to cover 2 everything; I don't know. 3 MS. HARGIS: We'd like to cover everything if we 4 did it. 5 MR. O'FIEL: I don't think that would be possible. 6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Be really hard. 7 MS. HARGIS: So, just the -- 8 JUDGE EMERSON: It's not uncommon in a C.P.S. case 9 to have two, three, four attorneys. 10 MR. O'FIEL: That's why it's so expensive. Every 11 case you have, you know, attorney fees for the child, 12 attorney fees for each parent. I mean, it's just -- that's 13 why it gets so out of hand. 14 MS. HARGIS: That's just one of my largest costs, 15 is that one. That's actually larger than the -- than the 16 district courts. 17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Because of the multiple attorneys. 18 I guess that's a question you could ask. I'm sure that this 19 -- this -- we don't have to reinvent the wheel. I'm sure 20 that some county somewhere has been through this. You could 21 ask the people with the indigent defense plans, that 22 administer those. I'm sure they've been asked before, can't 23 we do a one-size-fits-all where they -- 24 MS. LAVENDER: Well, in the review and the study 25 that I've done on this, I don't think any -- I don't think 2-21-14 workshop 16 1 there's any counties that that's the majority of what they 2 do. They may do some, but I think the money is going to be 3 more toward the felony and misdemeanor cases, rather than 4 C.P.S. cases. 5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: One of the big problems, though, 6 is let's say they weren't -- just hypothetically, if they 7 could be included, you look at the volume in the County Court 8 at Law, in the 198th and 216th, and you add on top of that, 9 just for example, C.P.S. There's no way three attorneys -- 10 for one thing, we'd inevitably have a lot of conflicts, have 11 to appoint outside counsel. But there's no way three lawyers 12 can handle that volume. 13 JUDGE BROWN: Be pretty tough in my court. 14 JUDGE EMERSON: Steve, what did you find when you 15 talked to Burnet County? 16 MR. PICKELL: They have a staff of three lawyers, 17 but their -- their numbers are quite a bit lower than Kerr 18 County's. 19 MR. O'FIEL: What numbers? Number of cases? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Number of cases. 21 MR. PICKELL: Number of cases. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: By a large margin, too. 23 When I -- when I asked Steve to do this, I just started out 24 with we need the head guy and two lawyers. You know, I'm the 25 one that put that together just as a starting point. Now, I 2-21-14 workshop 17 1 don't know what's -- what it's going to take to fit Kerr 2 County at all. I have no idea. Hopefully we can talk about 3 that today. 4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That's a good starting point. You 5 got to start somewhere. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 7 JUDGE BROWN: I think you'll start off with a 8 lawyer and two assistants, and I think later you're going to 9 have a bureaucracy. You're going to have to build a wing 10 onto the courthouse here. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but 11 it's going to -- not going to stay one lawyer and two 12 assistants. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Never does. What are you 14 going to do in retirement? (Laughter.) Not do this? 15 JUDGE BROWN: Not this. 16 MR. WHITLOW: I've talked to Clay about this, and I 17 think Clay has some knowledge about what's required on these 18 from the A.B.A. standards and a lot of other places. 19 MR. STEADMAN: I was in trial all week and I didn't 20 get a chance to look up the A.B.A. standards, but there are 21 some standards set out by the Indigent -- I think I had 22 talked to Rosa about it too. There are A.B.A. guidelines on 23 what your case load can be, and I think Steve has some of 24 those numbers. Once you get to a certain case load, you're 25 required -- you should at that point inform Commissioners 2-21-14 workshop 18 1 Court or the other governing bodies that you're responding to 2 that, "We can't take any more cases." I think Steve had 3 mentioned to me that in Burnet County, there were -- were 4 they 10 months into the fiscal year, Steve? 5 MR. PICKELL: Well, I kind of misstated that. I 6 was corrected and told that every month, they stop taking 7 cases, like, with two or three days left in the month, so 8 that they control it on a monthly basis, not an annual basis. 9 MR. STEADMAN: Well, and that is probably correct, 10 'cause there's going to be a case load volume based upon the 11 number of attorneys in the office. And once you hit that 12 case load, in order to be effective, you're going to notify 13 your judge or whoever that you've stopped taking cases. 14 MS. PEARSON: What happens to the defendants that 15 need attorneys? 16 MR. STEADMAN: They have court-appointed attorneys. 17 You still have to utilize court-appointed attorneys. 18 MR. O'FIEL: If you do kind of the mirror image of 19 what the State's doing, and we assume each D.A.'s office has 20 one attorney for each court, then the County Attorney has two 21 or three attorneys, right? 22 MR. HENNEKE: Yeah, covering the County Court at 23 Law, juveniles, State Hospital, and J.P. courts. 24 MR. O'FIEL: So that's five attorneys that kind of 25 cover criminal cases on, you know, the prosecution side. I 2-21-14 workshop 19 1 mean, even if you try to make them equal, which would -- you 2 know, you're still looking at four. 3 JUDGE EMERSON: Well, you're not equal, 'cause, 4 like, the County Attorney's office may have 2,500 new cases, 5 but there may be only 500 of them that ask for indigent 6 attorneys. 7 MR. O'FIEL: That's true. 8 MR. PICKELL: Those figures, with that staff that 9 they're based on, 35 percent of misdemeanor cases are going 10 to the public defender, 67 percent of the felony cases. 11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Do they come from Burnet? 12 MR. PICKELL: This came from the Indigent Defense 13 Commission. 14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I'd be interested to know, of the 15 counties that have transitioned to this program, be 16 interesting to talk to the county judges or the district -- 17 whoever the judges are administering being a part of them, 18 and see if they're satisfied if there's been a significant 19 cost savings and greater efficiency or anything like that. 20 It'd really be interesting to see people who've actually done 21 it, what their take is on it. Would they do it again? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's probably the best 23 true picture. 24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: How many counties are doing it? 25 MS. LAVENDER: There's not a lot of them. There's 2-21-14 workshop 20 1 some regional deals, like up in northeast Texas. 2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That's for capital murder. 3 MS. LAVENDER: Right, Lubbock. There's one -- or 4 was one in Val Verde County. I don't know whether it's still 5 in existence or not, because when I talked to the Val Verde 6 County Judge, they were fixing to get rid of it because it 7 had become very political. But there's one up in northeast 8 Texas; it's a three-county public defender program. But 9 other than Burnet County, I'm not aware of any single county 10 public defender offices in rural counties. There's some in, 11 obviously, the larger metropolitan counties, but I've not had 12 any luck at finding any. And Dominic was going to come 13 today, and then we -- he didn't get here, the guy that's from 14 the Texas Indigent Defense. Because we weren't ready at this 15 point to talk with them. So, on some of the these questions, 16 I'm kind of shooting from the hip based on conversations I've 17 had with him. 18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Well, the Lubbock project, I hear 19 -- I've talked to people that have participated in it, but 20 that's the Capital Defense Fund. 21 MS. LAVENDER: Only capital defense. 22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: One reason I think that's worked 23 is they have put together a lot of counties to go in, so 24 there's -- there's cost sharing, and then those people travel 25 a lot. We've used it here for a couple of capital murder 2-21-14 workshop 21 1 cases, and they're -- they did a good job. And I understand 2 from talking to a couple people out in west Texas that 3 they've been content with that, but that's pretty limited, 4 'cause it only applies to capital -- capital defenses. 5 MR. WHITLOW: And, Keith, that makes sense, 6 because, as you know, that's such a highly technical area 7 really that they need, if they can consolidate it, I'm sure 8 they save money. 9 MS. LAVENDER: But -- 10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Because of the longevity of the 11 relationship and the appeals, and they cover -- they cover 12 all that, and it does -- you really want people on top of 13 their game doing that. 14 MR. WHITLOW: And then having contacts with the 15 experts they need and the investigators and whatever. 16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So, Rosa, there's not -- other 17 than Burnet -- 18 MS. LAVENDER: No. No, I am not aware of any. No, 19 I have no idea. Clay might know more. 20 MR. STEADMAN: I just went on the website, Rosa. 21 Here, Judge, if you want to look at it. These are the 22 counties that they list. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably 12 or 15 there. 24 MS. LAVENDER: 12 or 15? Look at the counties. 25 The other thing is, if you -- if you create your program, you 2-21-14 workshop 22 1 can define what cases the office handles. You don't have -- 2 some of them handle only felonies. Some of them only handle, 3 like, first, second, and third-degree felonies, some of them, 4 and don't do state jails. Or -- 5 MR. STEADMAN: For the longest time, Travis County 6 just had a juvenile public defender's office. 7 MS. LAVENDER: Or you can do mental health programs 8 or whatever. I mean, you're not tied to making it all -- an 9 "everything" kind of program. You can determine when you set 10 it up which levels of defendants you're going to deal with 11 through the public defender program. 12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: With the exception of a couple, 13 these are mainly larger cities or counties. Bexar, Dallas, 14 Harris, Fort Bend, El Paso, Travis, Webb, Wichita, Lubbock, 15 Montgomery. There is Burnet. And what's the county seat 16 of -- Willis is Harlingen, isn't it? And Cameron. So, we 17 don't have a lot of resources there, but there's a few we 18 could call. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But these are all -- every 20 county you named, except Burnet, is over 100,000 in 21 population. 22 MS. HARGIS: Montgomery County is over 500. 23 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Out of 254, not many have 24 exercised that option. 25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: You know, I guess one thing 2-21-14 workshop 23 1 that -- just to think off the top of my head, most of these, 2 you know, they join with other counties to make the dollars 3 and cents work, you know. Of course, it would take involving 4 other commissioners, other counties, see, and get the same 5 type of calculation figures as you put together here, Buster. 6 But -- but, see, collectively the surrounding counties, what 7 their costs have been, and see if there are -- could be 8 justification for a joinder with a number of counties to go 9 into the project together. But you'd still have to have -- 10 well, you know, and a lot of our defense attorneys go to all 11 the hill country counties to do defense work. And we need 12 them. I mean, because -- especially out of Kerrville, we 13 have a lot of Kerrville -- not a lot. We have a number of 14 Kerrville attorneys that put on a lot of miles to support 15 their -- the defense appointments in these counties. 16 MS. LAVENDER: What's the case load that the local 17 defense attorneys -- just kind of an average case load that 18 you have of court-appointed clients? 19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Most of them have civil too. You 20 have to consider family law, whatever, business litigation, 21 business cases. 22 MS. LAVENDER: Is it 50 percent of their practice? 23 Is it 60 percent of their practice? Is it -- I mean, 24 where -- 25 MR. STEADMAN: Are you asking criminal or 2-21-14 workshop 24 1 court-appointed? 2 MS. LAVENDER: Criminal court-appointed. 3 MR. STEADMAN: Very few for me. 4 MS. LAVENDER: Well, in your case, because you quit 5 taking appointments. But let's look at Norman and -- 6 MR. WHITLOW: I have a pretty high percentage, but 7 I'm not sure what it is. I haven't looked at it from that 8 standpoint. 9 MS. PEARSON: I've got at least 50 percent. 10 MR. WHITLOW: I know from the percentage of 11 headaches and anxiety -- (Laughter.) 12 MS. LAVENDER: 100 percent. 13 MR. O'FIEL: There's a number of attorneys that 14 really just do criminal appointments, I would think. 15 MR. STEADMAN: I don't know. 16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: There -- I think you're right. 17 MS. LAVENDER: There's a number of them. 18 COMMISSIONER MOSER: If we knew that, what would we 19 do with it? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Talking about your 21 regional idea, I think that was -- that was kind of pitched a 22 few years ago here. 23 MS. LAVENDER: Three. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Three years ago. And, you 25 know, we're -- if you're going to go to Junction and ask the 2-21-14 workshop 25 1 Commissioners Court there if they'd like to participate in 2 something like this, you may want to send Norman up there. 3 I'm not going. 4 MR. WHITLOW: To Junction? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Anywhere. 6 MR. WHITLOW: No. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Any of those counties that 8 surround us. I'm too old to get my butt whipped every day 9 like that. But -- 10 MR. STEADMAN: You couldn't do that, 'cause you'd 11 have to to stay within the district. Otherwise, you're going 12 to stretch your P.D.'s office too thin. 13 MR. WHITLOW: Yeah. It would have to be within a 14 district, I'm sure. 15 MS. LAVENDER: That's what we tried three years 16 ago. 17 MR. WHITLOW: 216th and 198th would be the 18 boundaries. 19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: These guys are just not interested 20 in that kind of stuff. Even if we did it, they wouldn't. 21 MR. WHITLOW: I'll throw one back at you, Buster. 22 How have joint county operations worked out for you? Pretty 23 good, or no? 24 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Joint county -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: With other counties? 2-21-14 workshop 26 1 MR. WHITLOW: Yeah. I don't know -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't have any problem on 3 the D.A. side. The 198th and 216th is really the only two. 4 MR. WHITLOW: I realize that, 'cause you have a 5 central D.A. I'm talking about where you joined another 6 county on a project. Have you done that? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We haven't done it. 8 COMMISSIONER MOSER: EMS a little bit, but not -- 9 MR. WHITLOW: I would imagine that creating 10 problems. 11 MR. O'FIEL: I think one other cost you're going to 12 have to put into this is on all the conflicts, too, 13 codefendants and things like that you're going to have to 14 look at. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You won't get rid of the 16 indigent defense attorneys. 17 MR. O'FIEL: If there's no court-appointed 18 attorneys -- 19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Inevitably, you're going to -- it 20 doesn't matter how well you plan it, conflicts will arise. 21 There will be some -- there will be some court-appointed 22 costs. 23 MR. STEADMAN: Hypothetically, over the years, 24 we've run into a number of what we call organized criminal 25 conspiracy cases, and we've had cases that range anywhere 2-21-14 workshop 27 1 from, what, six or seven defendants to Operation Clean Sweep 2 was like what, 30? 3 MR. BARTON: Yeah. 4 MR. STEADMAN: A lawyer can only take one of those 5 cases, so a P.D.'s office could take one of those cases, and 6 you'd have however many conflicts there were with however 7 many defendants. 8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: We've had a couple where we've run 9 out of attorneys to appoint, attorneys we felt could handle 10 the type of case. That's not very common, but it happens. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we change gears for a 12 second? Rusty indicated to me yesterday that he's probably 13 going to start sending some prisoners out of county because 14 he's full, got a full house. And I keep -- I keep thinking 15 back in my mind that this kind of a program could possibly 16 help the population in the jail. Now, I don't -- I don't 17 know; that's what I'm kind of looking for up here today, is 18 how -- if that is so, how does that work, and what causes 19 the -- the population deletion from that? Because -- because 20 of the -- I mean, you're going to have -- because they -- 21 like, a group like this would be county employees, so there's 22 a -- there's a certain amount of accountability, maybe. I'm 23 asking questions; I'm not throwing rocks at anybody. And 24 they would take care of those folks, their clients that are 25 in the jail, maybe in a better way. I don't know; I'm 2-21-14 workshop 28 1 asking. Would that -- is that a possibility? 2 JUDGE EMERSON: I'll take a stab at it. It's a 3 complicated answer, because with the -- with the new 39.14 4 Code of Criminal Procedure statute that went into effect 5 January 1, we can't fast-track new cases any more. There's 6 mandatory discovery documents that have to be passed back and 7 forth, and both the State and the defense has to sign off if 8 they've received them and they've investigated them before we 9 can process a case. Now, there's a small train of thought 10 out there that says you can waive that, but at this point, 11 that's not defined. So what we're limited to right now is 12 motions to revoke, motions to proceed. That's really the 13 only cases that we can accelerate at any kind of speed 14 through the system. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: When we did that fast track, if 17 you recall, we started that -- Bruce got involved in that, 18 several other people. It helped a ton, just almost 19 overnight, to really be able to churn them out, get them 20 done. But the big issue hopefully that Rex mentioned that 21 would be resolved, hopefully sooner rather than later, is 22 that a waiveable -- something the defense attorney and his 23 client can waive? Or is it going to be mandated throughout 24 the course of the pendency of that case? It does require a 25 lot of full disclosure, and our D.A.'s have fully 2-21-14 workshop 29 1 disclosed -- by history, they have open-file policies, and 2 they've been very good about disclosing what they have in 3 their files. But there -- there's a whole new set of forms 4 that we're going to have to go through cases from January 1 5 forward, adding to the plea package and the plea 6 presentations with the Michael Morton Act, and making sure 7 that basically all stones have been turned. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I've always kind of 9 viewed the thing that she was doing out at the jail, I always 10 looked at that as kind of a little public defender operation 11 out there. That's the way I saw it. 12 MS. PEARSON: And I am trying to move the probation 13 violations and motions to revoke through as quickly as I can. 14 Now, sometimes they'll come in, and in sweeps of five or ten 15 a week, and then maybe the next week there's not any. And I 16 still am trying to move those through as quickly as I can. 17 But I feel like we still have to be very careful with -- with 18 those with the new -- the new Michael Morton. I really do. 19 MR. WHITLOW: The judges in here -- the three 20 judges that are in here, in my opinion, are doing all they 21 can do to expedite these cases. All of them are very, very 22 diligent at that. And by that, I mean they lean on the State 23 and the defense to move these cases. And that's all good; 24 cases need to be moved. We need to be very careful in that 25 regard that the case is done properly, and they are. But 2-21-14 workshop 30 1 I've always said the jail population might be looked at from 2 the other end of the spectrum. There's a lot of people that 3 are sitting in jail on a pretty high bond that are not flight 4 risks. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That are not what? 6 MR. WHITLOW: Flight risks. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, flight risk. Bonds are 8 too high? 9 MR. WHITLOW: I think they need to be centered on, 10 "Will this guy appear in court?" I don't want to say that 11 these bonds are used to punish them in advance, but they're 12 awfully strict and awfully strenuous and awfully high. And I 13 think maybe if it was looked at from the other end of the 14 spectrum, it might alleviate the jail population. And on 15 visiting prisoners in jail, I don't know of any defense 16 lawyers that are -- that are neglectful in that regard on a 17 personal basis. If I have something to tell a defendant, I'm 18 going to go to jail and talk with him. I'm not going to 19 accept his $6-a-call telephone collect call. I'm not doing 20 that, but I will go see him when I have business to talk with 21 him. Now, if he needs someone to hold his hand, a 22 Court-appointed lawyer, at $70 an hour, doesn't need to be a 23 hand-holder. He needs to use his time diligently and go out 24 and discuss business with his client at the jail. So, the 25 jail people, the people in jail are clamoring to see their 2-21-14 workshop 31 1 lawyer every day, but it's useless and expensive, and serves 2 no purpose, unless he has something to deal with them about. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 4 MR. WHITLOW: It would pacify him. It would make 5 the staff -- jail staff a lot happier, but that's not the -- 6 not in the cards. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, thank you for 8 explaining that, 'cause I've never heard it put quite like 9 that, but thank you for that. 10 MR. PICKELL: That's what usually happens when 11 Norman says something; you never heard it put that way 12 before. (Laughter.) 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just met him here a while 14 back. 15 MR. WHITLOW: Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. What do y'all want to 17 do? 18 MR. PICKELL: To answer an earlier question, it 19 looks like most public defender clients, at least in Burnet 20 County, are set up on a payment plan and at least agree to 21 pay the attorney's fees. 22 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Agree to what? 23 MR. PICKELL: At least agree to pay back attorney's 24 fees. 25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Under the indigent defense plan? 2-21-14 workshop 32 1 MR. PICKELL: The Burnet County Public Defender's 2 office. 3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Hmm. 4 MR. O'FIEL: Do you know how they determine what 5 number of hours or representation, or -- 6 MR. PICKELL: I can't text that fast. 7 MR. O'FIEL: Oh. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And they -- and they use 9 grant money? 10 MR. PICKELL: They do. 11 MR. STEADMAN: They do. 12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That'd be interesting. That's 13 interesting. 14 MS. LAVENDER: The grant allows for whether it's -- 15 they pay a flat fee. 16 MR. STEADMAN: Steve, does that money go directly 17 to the P.D.'s office so they can use it within their 18 budgetary process, or does it go back to the county? 19 MS. LAVENDER: It's a reimbursement. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What percent of the funding can 21 be grant funding? 22 MS. LAVENDER: It's a four-year; 80, 60, 40, 20. 23 80 percent the first year, and in the first-year grant, you 24 can buy computers and software and, you know, office 25 furniture, whatever. You know, those kinds of things only -- 2-21-14 workshop 33 1 can only be done the first year. You can't do it out of any 2 other years of it. 3 JUDGE BROWN: They won't give us money to pay our 4 Court-appointed lawyers? 5 MS. LAVENDER: The current -- you cannot use -- 6 it's called supplanting, okay? You cannot use grant funds to 7 supplant -- 8 JUDGE BROWN: To plant? 9 MS. LAVENDER: Supplant, s-u-p-p -- 10 JUDGE BROWN: Supplement? 11 MS. LAVENDER: To supplant, s-u-p-p-l-a-n-t. It 12 means you can't replace what you're doing now with grant 13 money. And I talked to Dominic this morning and asked him 14 about that. If you -- if you use it -- I mean, like, if we 15 had a terrible computer system, was the analogy he used. You 16 had a terrible computer system, and that was the reason that 17 your people were not getting quality indigent defense 18 attorneys, then they would pay for the computer system. But 19 if you've already got a computer system, you can't use that 20 money to upgrade the computer system. Does that make sense? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 22 JUDGE BROWN: And you can't pay -- 23 MS. LAVENDER: You can't. 24 JUDGE BROWN: Can't use the money to pay the 25 lawyers? 2-21-14 workshop 34 1 MS. LAVENDER: Right. You can't replace what you 2 already have with grant money, is my understanding. You've 3 got to make things better than they are today. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can you pay the lawyers? 5 MS. LAVENDER: Yes, you can pay attorney's fees. 6 You can pay experts, forensic experts, mental health experts, 7 all of those kind of people. 8 JUDGE BROWN: I'm getting two messages here. It's 9 my fault, 'cause I'm not -- why do we want to appoint these 10 public defenders if we can just get the money and spend it on 11 lawyers? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't -- don't hand that 13 to me. 14 JUDGE EMERSON: I don't know that you'd get the 15 grant. 16 JUDGE BROWN: So without the public defender's 17 office, there's no grant? Is that what -- 18 MS. LAVENDER: That's correct. That's correct. 19 MS. PEARSON: That's right. 20 JUDGE BROWN: I'm just trying to grasp it here. 21 MS. LAVENDER: That's correct. Going down the 22 cliff. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: One thing, you know, talking 24 about saving money, it was proposed to me that maybe we 25 should make it a case -- just so much is allowed to be 2-21-14 workshop 35 1 charged for certain cases, and set the fee at a flat fee for 2 certain types of cases, and that's all you're going to get -- 3 all attorneys will get for that particular case, whether 4 they're doing it by the hour -- 5 MS. PEARSON: Then you're not going to get the 6 attorneys. 7 MR. O'FIEL: You're going to create a plea deal; 8 you're not going to get fair representation for defendants. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That was just proposed. 10 That's what we were talking about. 11 JUDGE BROWN: Nobody's going to want to be on the 12 list. 13 JUDGE EMERSON: We use that on motions to revoke, 14 because there's generally an average amount of time that 15 you're going to spend on motion to revoke. But as far as the 16 other -- you know, until the defense attorney receives a 17 case, you don't know if you need an expert. You don't know 18 if you need to send the blood work off to a lab for sampling. 19 There's too many variables. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. I just thought I'd 21 throw it out there. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Clay, we went through the 23 jail. Sorry, you're too late. Can't have a new jail, they 24 said. 25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So, what's the deadline for 2-21-14 workshop 36 1 applying? 2 MS. LAVENDER: We have to send in what's called an 3 Intent to Submit by March the 14th, and then they look it 4 over -- the Texas Indigent Defense Commission looks over our 5 proposal, and if they think that we have something that's 6 quality enough to submit a grant, then they let us know. And 7 the grant's due in May, so we have some -- a window of time. 8 What we did three years ago was we went ahead and submitted 9 the Intent to Submit, and then that was for the Regional 10 Public Defender Program that we came up with. And we got the 11 invitation to submit the application, but we could not get 12 the judges in these outlying counties that we wanted to 13 participate to buy into the program, and so we never 14 completed the process three years ago. So, if we send the 15 Intent to Submit, it doesn't commit us to anything, other 16 than it opens the window for us if we want to climb in. 17 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So there's no down side -- 18 MS. LAVENDER: No. 19 COMMISSIONER MOSER: -- to creating that? 20 MS. LAVENDER: Correct. It just takes a little 21 time to do it. It's done. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's on our agenda Monday? 23 MS. LAVENDER: It's on the agenda for Monday. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we wish. 25 MR. STEADMAN: Rosa, but in the 80, 60, 40, 20 2-21-14 workshop 37 1 scenario, reimbursement costs, okay, so in the fourth year, 2 the County's on their own, after you've used up the grant 3 money. Correct? 4 MS. LAVENDER: Actually, fifth year. 5 MR. STEADMAN: Okay, fifth year. 6 MS. LAVENDER: Yes, then you're on your own after 7 that. 8 MR. STEADMAN: This third year, you're actually 9 getting less than 50 percent of the money back. 10 MS. LAVENDER: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. STEADMAN: Okay. So who -- who has the running 12 numbers you will have to take into consideration? 13 MS. LAVENDER: And the other thing is, if you take 14 the grant, then you have to have a sustainability plan to 15 keep it going after that last year. 16 MR. STEADMAN: You can't flip the off switch in the 17 fifth year. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rosa, it seems like even if you 19 establish the public defender's office, you're still going to 20 have to have a lot of outside counsel for all the reasons 21 that were stated. Would it make sense to just have a -- you 22 know, maybe try and get -- take care of half the cases 23 through the public defender's office knowing that, and just 24 keep the -- reduce the budget in the other one? Does that 25 make any sense to do it as a part-way plan? As opposed to 2-21-14 workshop 38 1 something -- I mean, is there any merit to doing it that way? 2 JUDGE BROWN: I can't answer that; I don't know. 3 MS. LAVENDER: Are you going to -- 4 JUDGE BROWN: I just think we're going to create 5 another bureaucracy. I mean, you know, just another -- 6 another -- what do you want to call it? -- agency or 7 whatever. You know, another unit that's going to just grow 8 and grow and grow. You may save a few bucks up front, but 9 like he said, after five years, you're going to have to keep 10 it going, and it's going to keep growing. 11 COMMISSIONER MOSER: You have to keep it going the 12 way you obligated to keep it going. 13 JUDGE BROWN: Yeah. 14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: The way what? 15 COMMISSIONER MOSER: The way you obligate it, you 16 know, as part of the grant. 17 JUDGE BROWN: It always starts off just one person, 18 and then two and a secretary, and it gets -- mushrooms out. 19 MS. LAVENDER: And right now, we have a system 20 where we're screening them. We don't know that when -- if we 21 put the public defender system in, that we would still have 22 the ability to screen the applicants. And if I walk in and 23 say to Judge Emerson, "I want a public defender," if the 24 public defender program says you have to take everybody, then 25 it's going to -- it's going to change the way we're doing 2-21-14 workshop 39 1 things now. There's also -- and I just want to throw out 2 this deal. Buster and I talked about it briefly. There's 3 also a deal called a managed counselor, or managed -- what 4 was it, program? Which is kind of a -- more of these two. 5 You don't get the public defender funds, but you have someone 6 who's appointed -- Clay, take it from there; you know what 7 I'm talking about. 8 MR. STEADMAN: Some counties, what they do is they 9 outsource their indigent defense. Like, you might get three 10 lawyers that agree on contract -- or four lawyers in a 11 certain area, and they agree that they'll take "X" number -- 12 it's still a lot for the -- for the theory that there could 13 be conflicts and everything, but they agree to take on these 14 certain cases or certain case load. I was at a seminar and I 15 was talking to someone from Lubbock -- Lubbock County, and I 16 guess Rosa could maybe check with them, but they have kind of 17 a managed counsel where I think the County has actually 18 turned over the indigent defense funds to their organization. 19 MS. LAVENDER: On a contract basis. 20 MR. STEADMAN: And they run the screening process 21 to get it out to qualified counsel. The lawyers, I think, 22 sign agreements on what they'll take it for, and expert fees 23 and everything. I'm not real -- I have some friends in 24 Lubbock, and Harold and I know some board members up there 25 from Lubbock with T.C.D.L.A. I could ask around about it. 2-21-14 workshop 40 1 But Rosa's right; there are hybrid programs. But I would say 2 this about a P.D.'s office. I know a lot of public 3 defenders. They're very good lawyers. What they do bring, 4 even if it's not to the budgetary process, they bring 5 continuity to the system, okay? They give that judge, those 6 judges, someone in the courtroom who maybe is ready to go to 7 trial every month. So, if it's just dollars and cents and a 8 budget item, maybe it doesn't work out for you in year five. 9 But if you're looking for continuity in the system, a growing 10 demographic, public defender's offices can provide a very 11 good base. I think Steve probably could speak more to that 12 than I can. But it's not -- it can be a really good idea if 13 it's run the right way. 14 MS. LAVENDER: And the grant -- this grant also has 15 a component for that specifically. The thing about that, you 16 know, it's A, B, C, D, and I think if you look, Spencer's got 17 that. The public defender, where you just have someone 18 appointed as a public defender, the attorney -- the judges 19 have to agree to turn over the appointments to that person. 20 MR. STEADMAN: Right. 21 MS. LAVENDER: It takes the appointment out of the 22 judge's realm and puts it in the hands of the public 23 defender. And, you know, we have a terrific defense bar 24 here, and some of these people have specialty areas that they 25 do better than other people do. And that's one good thing 2-21-14 workshop 41 1 about the judges continuing to do the appointments, because 2 they know. The other concern that I have is that a lot of 3 our defense bar -- how do you diplomatically say that? 4 Because I'm old -- an old person. We don't have any young 5 attorneys coming into Kerr County joining our defense bar, 6 and I think that is a major -- I mean, we -- we do. I mean, 7 Patrick came in here; it was wonderful, thanks to a 8 hurricane. But we don't have a lot of young attorneys who 9 are coming in here and joining the defense bar. And I think 10 5 years or 10 years or 20 years from now, that's going to 11 become an issue here. And I'd like to know how y'all feel 12 about that statement. Don't kill me. 13 MR. STEADMAN: We're doing our best. We have a 14 pretty strong local defense bar. 15 MS. LAVENDER: You do. 16 MR. STEADMAN: We have a Hill Country Criminal 17 Defense Lawyers Association. We're fairly organized. We -- 18 a lot of the local lawyers who do criminal defense work are 19 members, and we provide training. We are an affiliate of 20 Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association. It's hard to 21 answer that question, because, you know, the training's 22 available, and it's going to be the lawyers' choice how they 23 proceed with that. I don't -- I guess are you talking about 24 recruiting lawyers? I mean, 'cause I don't -- first of all, 25 the lawyer's got to want to come and set up a practice in 2-21-14 workshop 42 1 Kerrville. I don't know. I don't have an answer for that. 2 I don't know. 3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I second what Clay said, though, 4 in that we have such diversity amongst the -- you know, of 5 course, we have the retained counsel, too. You never know 6 what's coming from San Antonio or whatever on retained -- a 7 retained basis. But even here in the Hill Country, you have 8 a lot of diversity, a lot of competent lawyers, and the -- 9 the approach that each different lawyer takes, and that 10 consistency that he mentioned, you know, you can see -- like 11 in the D.A.'s offices, you know how the D.A.'s going to 12 present their case. You know how they work, and there's some 13 consistency there you can see, and probably the same thing 14 would be achieved, like Clay mentioned. I know Rex and I 15 have talked about this, and I bet Spencer would agree, 16 that -- that it would allow us to do a lot -- have a lot more 17 time to do other things if we did not have to go through 18 every day appointing -- reviewing and appointing on cases, 19 reviewing bills as part of a plea package to go through not 20 only the District Clerk's bill of costs, but also the fees, 21 and assess that as costs if we can. And it would save a lot 22 of administrative time if we did not have to worry about the 23 appointment system and going through all that goes along with 24 that. Consistency would be -- you know, would be a good 25 thing. 2-21-14 workshop 43 1 MR. O'FIEL: Is there a measuring -- how do we 2 measure who can have the public defender? I think I kind of 3 missed that. Is it a certain amount of income above poverty 4 level? Or a public defender would just do it -- would just 5 make the decision? 6 MS. LAVENDER: Well, no. Right now what we do is 7 we screen them based on their ability to -- to hire an 8 attorney, financially. And there's guidelines set in our 9 defense plan that are based on state guidelines about 10 indigency. 11 MR. O'FIEL: But, I mean, is there a guideline with 12 the P.D.? 13 MR. STEADMAN: How would you screen the cases with 14 the P.D. as far as income level goes? 15 MS. LAVENDER: I can't answer that; I don't know. 16 JUDGE EMERSON: The one we have now is 110 percent 17 of the poverty -- 18 MS. LAVENDER: I think it's based on federal 19 poverty level. I think it would stay the same. But the 20 other thing about having the public defender office, I mean, 21 if you just had someone in there that addressed -- that 22 appoints attorneys and screens and stuff, that doesn't 23 necessarily have to be an attorney. That can be an 24 administrator of sorts to do that. 25 MR. PICKELL: I think in Burnet, a legal assistant 2-21-14 workshop 44 1 does the screening and -- 2 MS. LAVENDER: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. PICKELL: -- says whether they're going to 4 accept -- 5 MS. LAVENDER: The reason we started doing it in 6 our office is it was kind of an experiment in the beginning 7 to see if we could make a difference in what we were doing. 8 And when we figured out it was really -- and if the judges 9 like it, and I guess they do. And they've not told to us 10 quit doing it, and we've been doing it now almost four years. 11 It will be, in September, four years that we started doing 12 the felonies. 13 MR. WHITLOW: And I'll bet you the collection rate 14 has gone up from indigent defendants paying back 15 court-appointed attorney's fees. I'm guessing that. And I 16 bet it's even gone up since we've gone over these cost bills 17 very carefully with them. 'Cause I noticed the judges now 18 are saying you're telling the Court that you have the ability 19 to pay these costs back. I bet they've gone up over the 20 years, but I don't have the figures. 21 MS. LAVENDER: I don't either. You know, they pay 22 $10 a month, and so it's kind of hard to go back. 23 JUDGE BROWN: All I got to say is beware of the 24 Trojan horse. They give you some money up front. The next 25 thing you know, they take it away, but then they've got -- 2-21-14 workshop 45 1 but you still are under their thumb because you're -- you 2 know, you committed yourself to listen to what they tell you 3 to do. 4 MS. LAVENDER: And this is a renewable -- annual 5 renewable grant. You can get it the first year, and then if 6 they don't like what you're doing, then the second year comes 7 along, they may say, "Oh, sorry, we're not going to fund you 8 this year." And it's all a reimbursable thing, so we have to 9 put the money up up front and then they reimburse. But if 10 you -- if you set it up, and 12 years later, you lose the 11 funding, then we've got to be prepared in our budget to pick 12 up that full amount. 13 JUDGE BROWN: That's my point. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Sounds like what Spencer's 15 saying is, you know, if you organize, you create a 16 bureaucracy and other things, as opposed to piecemealing it 17 like we do now, then you've got the flexibility to do what 18 you need to do; turn it on, turn it off. The other's got a 19 lot of -- 20 JUDGE BROWN: Strings attached. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, it would be interesting 22 to know how much is being collected and paid back toward the 23 attorney's fees. This, you know, doesn't give you a true 24 picture of what -- 25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Well, that -- that was 124,133 in 2-21-14 workshop 46 1 2013. So, you know, it would be nice to know what it was for 2 the other years, but that's a meaningful figure. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm. 4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: There's very -- I mean, I lots of 5 people complain about this very bona fide issue you raised. 6 You're creating another one of these things that grow out of 7 control; you got the benefits to go along with it and all the 8 associated costs. 9 COMMISSIONER MOSER: And what Rosa said; you've got 10 the obligation to do it for years to follow. 11 MS. LAVENDER: Obligation. 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yeah, the obligation. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How long is the obligation if 14 you decide to do it? Do it three years? 15 MS. LAVENDER: Well, it just says on there that 16 you -- you have to "prove sustainability," is the terminology 17 they use with all of these grants, and that doesn't say how 18 many years. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sure as heck wouldn't want to 20 have to pay funds back. 21 MR. WHITLOW: There must be some reason why only 22 the major cities in Texas and the surrounding counties have 23 these programs set up, with the exception of -- I think they 24 said Wichita County. There's got to be some reason for that, 25 'cause we're not sitting in here trying to reinvent the 2-21-14 workshop 47 1 wheel. Other people have looked at this, and it hasn't, I 2 guess, been cost-effective. But if you -- and if it's a 3 suburban county area through a metropolitan area, I guess 4 it's cost-effective. I don't know. 5 MR. O'FIEL: What happened in Del Rio? 6 MS. LAVENDER: Well, I talked to -- I think it was 7 the county -- I'm trying to go back; it's three years ago. 8 And I talked to the County Attorney, I believe, in Del Rio 9 and asked him what the problem was down there, and he said it 10 became "too political," was the terminology he used. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They all went to prison. 12 MS. LAVENDER: Whoever -- whoever the chief public 13 defender was got involved in county politics, and they 14 couldn't keep attorneys in the office working for that 15 person. But that's all I know. I didn't ask him the details 16 other than that. 17 MR. O'FIEL: But that was through Rio Grande Legal 18 Aid. Weren't they joint with that? 19 MS. LAVENDER: They were contracted with Rio Grande 20 Legal Aid, that's correct. 21 MR. STEADMAN: I think they were handling -- like, 22 they may have been handling -- weren't they handling 23 immigration issues as well? 24 MS. LAVENDER: I believe that's correct too. 25 MR. STEADMAN: So, the -- so that's why it was 2-21-14 workshop 48 1 going through Rio Grande. 2 MR. O'FIEL: They had Rocksprings, Del Rio. 3 MR. STEADMAN: Yeah, I believe so. That's been 4 disbanded, right? 5 MS. LAVENDER: Right. 6 MR. STEADMAN: No longer exists. 7 MS. LAVENDER: Correct. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sounds like we don't have the 9 population to support this, bottom line. 10 JUDGE EMERSON: Could be. I don't think you have 11 enough numbers to determine that. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We've been here an hour, 13 so -- 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Recess? 15 MS. LAVENDER: Recess. We have brownies, and I 16 have water. I'm telling you, I cooked the brownies for you. 17 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Oh. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have those little green 19 things in there? 20 MS. LAVENDER: No, I haven't been to Colorado. 21 (Laughter.) 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Those things are hard to get 23 lit, you know. (Laughter.) 24 MS. LAVENDER: And I was really -- don't put this 25 in the paper. I was going to bring wine coolers, but Jeannie 2-21-14 workshop 49 1 wouldn't let me. 2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Bruce, you got to deal with this 3 every week, don't you? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's why we're on opposite 5 ends of the table. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I haven't heard a 7 great deal that's real positive about this thing, so I'm -- 8 I'm through with it. Unless y'all -- somebody shouts 9 "hallelujah" or something happens. If we did, you know, we'd 10 want to set up another meeting coming up soon in a month or 11 so and bring in some big dogs, do a dog-and-pony show. 12 Otherwise, it's -- if y'all don't want to do that, that's 13 fine with me. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Only thing I can see is maybe 15 find out, you know, why other counties are not doing it, or 16 why the ones that are doing it, why it pays off for them. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's a great 18 question. 19 JUDGE EMERSON: Let me propose this, Buster. 20 Instead of completely killing it, why don't you set a target 21 goal of next year for the grant application? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 23 JUDGE EMERSON: It gives you time to assimilate the 24 numbers, talk to the other counties. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. 2-21-14 workshop 50 1 JUDGE EMERSON: Make a couple of field visits and 2 see what's really out there. 3 MR. STEADMAN: Before you rule it out, why don't 4 you get somebody from the Texas Indigent Defense Commission 5 to come and speak to you? 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Well, the question is, do you 7 do it by the 14th? 8 MR. STEADMAN: No, I don't know, but I'm just 9 telling you they have a lot of numbers. They have a lot of 10 information. 11 MS. LAVENDER: We had them scheduled today, and I 12 canceled them because we weren't to the point we feel like we 13 needed to have them. 14 MR. STEADMAN: Those individuals are -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If y'all would like -- 16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: A lot of questions we had were 17 answered. I bet you they've got the data on that, because 18 they've got to try to sell it. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If y'all would like to do 20 that, I'd be happy -- she invited them today, and I -- I 21 asked her not to because I thought we would just have a 22 little chat and see -- see what the vibes were like in here. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think in talking with them, 24 if you do it, Rosa or Buster, whoever, just say that it 25 doesn't seem like it's going to work for us. Are we missing 2-21-14 workshop 51 1 something you need to tell us? Or are we -- or just is it 2 not going to work for us? No reason to set up a meeting if 3 they -- if they're going to come down and say, "You're too 4 small," -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- we don't need another 7 meeting. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Would y'all like to do it 9 the way we did it today? And we'll schedule it at 9:00, and 10 then nobody shows up, and -- and then 11 o'clock, and then 11 we'll change it to 1:30 without telling anybody. 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I guess the real question is 13 whether, on the -- before the 14th, we proceed with -- what 14 did you call it? The intent? 15 MS. LAVENDER: Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER MOSER: The intent. Maybe just hold 17 off on that for a year. That sounds like a good idea to me. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, we can't take a vote in 19 a workshop. 20 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. I'm saying that's the 21 issue on the table. 22 JUDGE BROWN: Wait a minute, you don't vote? I 23 thought I was playing County Judge today; I was going to 24 vote. (Laughter.) 25 MS. LAVENDER: So, we're going to table it and 2-21-14 workshop 52 1 study it further? Is that what we're going to do? I think 2 that's -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, this workshop is over. 4 (The workshop was adjourned at 2:38 p.m.) 5 - - - - - - - - - - 6 7 8 STATE OF TEXAS | 9 COUNTY OF KERR | 10 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 11 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 12 official reporter for the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 13 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 14 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 4th day of March, 2014. 15 16 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 17 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 18 Certified Shorthand Reporter 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-21-14 workshop