1 1 2 3 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS' COURT 4 Special Session 5 Monday, August 31, 2020 6 9:00 a.m. 7 Commissioners' Courtroom 8 Kerr County Courthouse 9 Kerrville, Texas 78028 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: ROB KELLY, Kerr County Judge HARLEY BELEW, Commissioner Precinct 1 24 TOM MOSER, Commissioner Precinct 2(via phone) JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Precinct 3 25 DON HARRIS, Commissioner Precinct 4 2 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 NO. PAGE 3 *** Commissioners' Comments. 4 4 1.1 Reconsider, discuss and take appropriate 7 action to rescind or clarify the Court 5 Order regarding hazard pay for Kerr County Sheriff's Office and Jailers, and commence 6 a thorough review and study regarding a comprehensive countywide policy regarding 7 hazard pay to include specific required criteria in consultation with Witt-O'Brien 8 Consultants and applicability of the CARES Act grant reimbursability. 9 1.11 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 109 10 action to pass a Hazardous Duty Pay Order for the Kerr County Jail staff and the 11 Kerr County Sheriff's Office employees for $5.00 per hour. 12 1.10 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 110 13 action on request for logistical needs for the National/Global Day of Prayer and 14 Repentance event scheduled for September 26, 2020, on the courthouse grounds. 15 1.2 Consider, discuss and accept "Certification 112 16 of Unopposed Candidates", and issue an Order the unopposed candidates elected. 17 1.3 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 114 18 action for updates to the Public Sector's Compensation Study procedural adjustments 19 due to COVID-19. 20 1.4 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 125 action to update the Kerr County Policy 21 regarding employee's payroll policy and procedure. 22 1.5 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 127 23 action to implement the Kerr County employee payroll verification form to 24 be signed annually at the beginning of each new fiscal year. 25 3 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 NO. PAGE 3 1.6 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 134 action to discuss the President's 4 Memorandum on deferring payroll tax obligations in light of the ongoing 5 COVID-19 disaster. 6 1.7 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 138 action to approve $140.00 donation from 7 a citizen for the Sheriff's Equipment Fund. 8 1.8 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 139 action to appoint Callie Gargano as a 9 replacement for Patsy Lackey Fleming, an alternate, as the Kerr County 10 representative to the Alamo Area Council of Governments(AACOG), Criminal Justice 11 Advisory Committee(CJAC). 12 1.9 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 139 action to approve contract with the Kerr 13 County Soil and Water Conservation District(KCSWCD),and allow County Judge 14 to sign same. 15 2.1 Pay bills. 140 16 2.2 Budget Amendments. 140 17 2.6 Court Orders. 141 18 3.3 Status reports from Liaison Commissioners. 149 19 *** Adjournment. 151 20 *** Reporter's Certificate. 152 21 * * * * * * 22 23 24 25 4 1 JUDGE KELLY: Good morning. It is Monday, 2 August the 31st, 2020, it's 9 o'clock in the morning, 3 and the Kerr County Commissioners' Court is now in 4 session. I want to remind everybody to -- you don't 5 have to turn your phones off, but do turn them to silent 6 or vibrate. And remind that anyone that would like to 7 call in for input to the Court that would -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner Moser, you 9 need to mute your phone because there's a -- we hear the 10 YouTube about 30 seconds late. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Commissioner, can you hear us? 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I'm muting it right 13 now. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Good. For those of you 15 who may wonder what we're doing, Commissioner Moser is 16 attending by teleconference on the phone here at the 17 bench. And what I'm asking you to do, anybody that 18 would like to call in and participate in this meeting, 19 you can call (830) 792-6161. And I have it here and it 20 can vibrate and we'll patch you in. 21 At this point, this is the opportunity where 22 we welcome the public's input. If there's anyone that 23 would like to address the Court on a topic that is not 24 on the agenda, this is your opportunity to do so. If 25 the topic is on the agenda, we ask that you wait until 5 1 that agenda item is called. Is there anyone in the 2 public that would like to address the Court? 3 Okay. There not being any, then this will 4 be the opportunity for Commissioners' Comments. And 5 let's start in reverse order today and give Harley a 6 break and start with Precinct 4, Commissioner Harris. 7 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: All right. It's hot 8 and dry. Very hot and dry. We need some rain and I 9 haven't seen any. I know you all got a few sprinkles 10 here and there but we haven't and that's what we need. 11 And so far, it looks like the first two 12 weeks of Ingram ISD school has gone smooth. The 13 volleyball girls are still rolling. I'm pretty sure 14 they're still undefeated and just going to town. That's 15 all I have. 16 JUDGE KELLY: Very good. Three. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I knew we were dry 18 and then I looked at the Keech-Byram Index and we are 19 the maximum dry, which is not good news. And much of 20 the State is actually, especially the Hill Country. So 21 we definitely need some rain. 22 And what I can tell everything's going fine 23 at KISD as well, their schools. Seems to be going 24 pretty much, you know, without a hitch. And you know, a 25 few students are -- I don't know what percent it is, but 6 1 a number of them are not -- you know, 20, 30 percent, 2 are doing it virtually but most of them are on campus 3 and seems to be going fine. 4 JUDGE KELLY: Good. Commissioner Moser, do 5 you have anything to comment on? 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I want to pass right 7 now, Judge. Thank you. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Thank you. 9 Precinct 1. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I've ran into a young 11 guy I've known for many years that has been over to 12 East Texas. They're clearing things out for posted 13 events to Hurricane Laura. And I asked how it went and 14 who all went and I knew most of them. And he said 15 there's a crew that went from Austin. 16 And I'm going to tell this because I heard 17 this a couple of times about different -- different 18 kinds of work groups that come from Kerr County. He 19 said this crew from Austin after it was all over with 20 said, man, you guys did about 30 percent more than we 21 did. These guys started in Texas and ended up in 22 Louisiana and didn't know the difference, they just kept 23 on working. And that's our Kerr County boys right 24 there. 25 My son, when he was working in the oil 7 1 patch, told me the same thing. He overheard some guys 2 talking one day and he said those three kids over there 3 that work circles around everybody else, they're from 4 Kerr County. So we raise folks that know how to work 5 and know how to help and I just wanted to say to Jake 6 Holland and all of the other kids that went out, Dustin 7 Taylor and some of the others, that we appreciate what 8 you're doing and how you represent Kerr County. God 9 bless you. There's still a lot of people without power 10 and they're still working over there pretty hard. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah. Good story. Good 12 story. The only thing I would report is that as of 13 Friday we had no new cases of COVID. We had no one in 14 the hospital. We are down to 12 active cases and things 15 are looking up. We'll wait and see how things go with 16 the schools and, you know, keep saying your prayers. 17 But this is a far cry from where we were back in June 18 and July. So thanks to all the good work at keeping 19 safe. 20 So with that, let's go on to the 21 Consideration Agenda, item 1.1 that I put on the docket 22 is to reconsider and discuss and take appropriate action 23 to rescind or clarify the Court Order regarding hazard 24 pay for Kerr County Sheriff's Office and Jailers, and 25 commence a thorough review and study regarding a 8 1 comprehensive countywide policy regarding hazard pay to 2 include specific required criteria in consultation with 3 Witt-O'Brien Consultants and applicability of the CARES 4 Act grant reimbursability. 5 That's a long way of saying that I learned a 6 lot after our Commissioners' Court meeting last Monday. 7 That this -- you may recall that we discussed whether to 8 have a policy before we had an order. And I do have a 9 draft Order that the Clerk has prepared. 10 And Order Number -- proposed Order No. 11 38265A is a vote to adopt a policy. But we don't have a 12 policy. We voted to adopt one, we just don't have one. 13 And that's proved problematic as I came back -- came out 14 of Commissioners' Court and started dealing with the 15 various other people here at the courthouse and their 16 eligibility for hazard pay. And I found that it was 17 problematic to not have that policy. And I don't know 18 what the law is on that, I'll defer to the County 19 Attorney. But I do remember that we had a discussion 20 last week about needing to have a policy. And we voted 21 to have one, we just don't have any. 22 And then we -- 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well also, Judge, we 24 voted to do this as it came up department by department, 25 if you'll recall. 9 1 JUDGE KELLY: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So that the Sheriff's 3 Department could go ahead and get started with it and we 4 would be able to -- so basically, that is a de facto 5 policy that you deal with as you go. With the other 6 departments. So that -- that was the getting started to 7 get it going. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Well, yeah, I understand. And 9 that was our intent. And then we got down to voting on 10 the actual order and Commissioner Moser abstained on 11 that one and pointed out that we really did need to have 12 a policy, not just a floating policy. 13 MRS. STEBBINS: Judge, I thought y'all 14 adopted a policy that limited it to five dollars and -- 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We did. 16 MRS. STEBBINS: -- and it -- it would comply 17 with whatever guidelines were in the Act for those who 18 are eligible for it. And then you adopted the -- or you 19 passed the Order that permitted it to go to the 20 Sheriff's Department and the jail for five dollars. So 21 I -- I thought that you did adopt a policy. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And no other department 23 to exceed five dollars per hour. 24 MRS. STEBBINS: That's correct. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So that was -- 10 1 JUDGE KELLY: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- that's policy enough 3 as far as I'm concerned. 4 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: That was the ground 5 work. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We just -- 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And this is special 8 extenuating circumstances, too. I don't think that if 9 we're going to set policy like that that we need to 10 necessarily be done with this. You have grant 11 guidelines. You have -- and basically what we did last 12 time, what we voted on, is easily a policy. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have a policy but we 14 don't have a very clear policy. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. And we're not talking 16 about grant guidelines. That's what I want. First 17 thing I learned is what this -- this five dollars a 18 person in the Sheriff's Department is going to cost, 19 which is $475,940.00. And if we're not right in doing 20 this then that's not reimbursable. And so there is risk 21 to the taxpayers that we can be responsible for that and 22 not be a pass through under the CARES Act. And so I 23 want to make sure that we comply with those grant 24 requirements. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So what's the 11 1 consultant going to cost us? 2 JUDGE KELLY: The consultant is paid for by 3 the grant. That's -- 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's part of what we 5 already -- 6 JUDGE KELLY: -- the one reason we have the 7 grant. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. 9 JUDGE KELLY: And let me point out -- 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And that comes out of 11 the grant, right? 12 JUDGE KELLY: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. So there's -- 14 there's money right there if we pursue that consultant, 15 it -- it comes out of the grant? 16 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, we already have 17 the -- 18 JUDGE KELLY: We already have them on board. 19 I worked with them last week. I worked with them on 20 Friday. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Uh-huh. All right. 22 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: And I don't -- I don't 23 recall what they're getting out of the grant though. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What percentage. 25 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah, what percentage. 12 1 JUDGE KELLY: Well, they don't get -- it's 2 -- there's a limit of five percent is what the 3 limitation of the grant is. But they don't necessarily 4 get that. This is a per diem. Yeah. They charge a 5 per diem. And I think that's -- that's maybe up to 6 $70,000. 7 MRS. SHELTON: Our contract said up to 8 50,000. 9 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Because if we're 11 talking about saving money then that needs to be 12 considered also, what you're going to pay a consultant 13 to tell you what you can pay somebody else. That's what 14 we're talking about. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Yes. And those funds are 18 reimbursable from the CARES Act -- from the -- from the 19 Coronavirus Relief Fund, the CRF. 20 But in visiting with them, I found out that 21 we are not complying with the requirements in the grant. 22 Number one, we're doing it across the Board by 23 department. And we're really required to evaluate 24 everybody individually, depending on what their 25 positions are. And that -- in fact, the specific 13 1 frequently asked questions say that across the board 2 we're not supposed to do it. The answer was no to do 3 that. And we had that discussion. 4 The other thing that I found out was that 5 you can't put in an order, which we did, the order that 6 we passed, that it is to be terminated when the funds -- 7 when their funding is no longer available. And that can 8 clearly contemplate the CARES Act fund. And that is a 9 red flag in the grant work that and the government does 10 not like to see that. 11 The Federal Government wants to give us the 12 money to provide for local needs and not just have us 13 spend the money because they're giving us the money and 14 made it available to us. 15 We're in -- we're in uncharted waters 16 because this is the first time that I can remember in 17 talking with our grant people that they've had to deal 18 with when the government has given us the money before 19 we've had to spend it. This is a disaster relief. And 20 usually what we're doing is having -- getting together 21 receipts -- our receipts together, get them to the 22 government to get them approved for reimbursement. In 23 other words we pay and then we seek to be reimbursed. 24 This is one where, because of this pandemic, 25 the government got the money to us before we've been 14 1 able to spend it. And so that's one of the issues. And 2 because we specifically reference in that order, that it 3 terminates when we run out of those funds, that's 4 something that the Witt-O'Brien Consultants recommend 5 that we not do. 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, it -- it 7 automatically terminates if you're out of money. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Well, we all know that but 9 it's better not to say it. Because if you say it, it's 10 a red flag to the Federal Auditors when they're -- 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So you're saying to use 12 it up? 13 JUDGE KELLY: Pardon? 14 COMMISSIONER BELEW: The Federal Government 15 likes you to use stuff up so they can get more. 16 JUDGE KELLY: But they want it to be on the 17 basis of necessity and not just the availability of 18 funds. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I understand the 20 concept but it doesn't sound like the Federal Government 21 I know. 22 JUDGE KELLY: And the policy that -- I'm not 23 sure I really appreciated that the policy to be 24 department by department. But that's not the way 25 Witt-O'Brien explained it to us of how -- how it should 15 1 be. 2 The bottom line is that hazard pay is 3 available for eligible employees. And there are three 4 categories and then an additional one. And that is 5 public safety, public health, human services, and 6 similar employees whose services are substantially 7 dedicated to mitigating or responding to COVID-19. And 8 they must perform hazardous duties or work involving 9 physical hardship. And it has to be something 10 additional than their regular pay. There's an analysis 11 between regular pay and hazard pay. And so this has to 12 be something in addition to regular pay. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So if we're going to do 14 these by individual review, shouldn't that go through 15 department heads and elected officials? 16 JUDGE KELLY: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. 18 JUDGE KELLY: And that's -- that's the 19 policy that I envisioned that I would recommend that we 20 do, is that people that believe that they're entitled to 21 hazard pay, and this is true whether it's in one of the 22 three specified categories, public safety, public 23 health, and human services, or if they're just one of 24 the similar employees, that they're substantially 25 dedicated to mitigating or responding to the COVID 16 1 crisis, submit an application to their department head 2 or official of the office. 3 And then that, in turn, goes to HR, and we 4 have the review committee that works with the Auditor, 5 who is pretty much our go-to person on grants, and to 6 the Grant Administrator, which is me, and I would 7 recommend that we include the Liaison Commissioner 8 because he knows more about what's going on in HR than 9 anybody else. But we have to have some kind of review 10 process. We've got to have a paper trail. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, that being the 12 case, then you -- I can't -- I don't anticipate any 13 department head saying to one of their employees, no. 14 JUDGE KELLY: I don't either. 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So that means 16 everybody. You might as well just say everybody. The 17 Sheriff made the case for having everybody in his entire 18 department to receive hazard pay. I don't anticipate 19 that being different upstairs, downstairs, wherever you 20 go in any department. 21 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, I thought it was 22 awful easy just to do the Sheriff's Department because 23 all of us at the time it seemed like, you know, it's cut 24 and dry. You know. It's sort of like everybody wants 25 to be cowboys until it comes time to do cowboy work. 17 1 And that's what looks like here. And that, to me, was 2 just very easy to say Sheriff's Department. Then we'll 3 get to these others and based on job performance or in 4 and around the COVID or whatever. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Well, let me cut to the chase. 6 What Witt-O'Brien told us, the example they made, we all 7 agree that First Responders should be receiving hazard 8 pay. But there are some limitations. And the example 9 that they used was the difference between the hazards 10 and the physical hardship that a patrol deputy 11 encounters versus what a dispatcher. That was the 12 specific example. And the risk evaluations are 13 different for each. 14 And -- and, therefore, in making the paper 15 trail on this thing, we gotta have a paper trail to 16 these auditors to see why. The first responders is 17 pretty easy. They can sit down and just write down what 18 they do everyday. And then -- and that's going to pass 19 muster on some of these and -- and for the maximum 20 amount, the five dollars an hour, okay, which is our 21 policy. 22 But the other evaluations we don't have to. 23 We just said blanket across the board and they're 24 telling us we're not supposed to do it across the board. 25 We're supposed to evaluate each category, each job type 18 1 and what they do. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well that -- 3 JUDGE KELLY: The jailers and patrol are the 4 ones that are at most risk. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But it allows for that 6 department by department, the way I understand it and 7 the way the County Attorney described it a minute ago 8 from her memory of it. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. We -- I mean, I 10 don't think it's a question that -- what we didn't do is 11 define the criteria. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: True. But I thought 13 the grant did that. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the grant doesn't 15 do it, but the stacks of Federal guidelines do. But 16 you've gotta go through that and figure out exactly what 17 you're doing. I mean, I've -- I have read through -- 18 the Sheriff's handed me documents and I read them and he 19 and I can look at them and interpret them probably 20 differently as to how you grammatically divide up a 21 paragraph. And that becomes the issue and we need to 22 have guidance, I think, from our consultants as to how 23 we do it; otherwise -- I mean that's why we hired the 24 consultant, because we're not experts on this. 25 And I think that the -- and we need to have, 19 1 you know, criteria so that we're not arbitrarily saying 2 okay, the County Clerk gets it, the District Clerk 3 doesn't. We gotta have guidelines that say well you -- 4 this one gets it -- this employee or this position gets 5 it because it meets A, B, C, and D. If you meet A, B, 6 C, sorry. And we need assistance from a consultant to 7 make that determination in my opinion. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, this is going to 9 get complicated and bogged down because you're going to 10 go from saying that they deserve an extra five dollars 11 an hour to saying they deserve an extra 35 cents an 12 hour, or whatever it is, and be mitigated and go back 13 from what Commissioner Harris was saying which was, one, 14 it's a no-brainer and these other one's you're going to 15 have to scratch your head and think about it a while and 16 get out your slide rule. 17 JUDGE KELLY: But what our consultant was 18 telling us is that by doing it across the board for the 19 entire department, we had not conducted individual 20 evalu -- risk evaluations that we're supposed to. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But that Department 22 Heads will have to do that? 23 JUDGE KELLY: Pardon? 24 COMMISSIONER BELEW: The Department Heads 25 will be responsible for that; we can't do it. 20 1 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Judge, let me say 2 something, if I may. 3 JUDGE KELLY: Go ahead. 4 COMMISSIONER MOSER: If you can hear me. 5 Okay. Can you hear me okay? 6 JUDGE KELLY: Oh yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I think, Judge, I'm 8 really glad you've brought this back up, okay, so we can 9 discuss it. The fact that we don't have a policy, and 10 that was my problem last Monday when I abstained on 11 this. I think it's very important. And I've thought a 12 lot about that since then. 13 And as we look into various departments 14 around the County and we look at -- at risk in their 15 jobs, there's no question that the Sheriff's Department 16 has higher risk. Forget COVID-19 for a moment. They -- 17 they are a higher risk. 18 The Road & Bridge is -- is at risk. Animal 19 Control is at risk. So how much do we increase the risk 20 in their job because of COVID? If you look at -- and 21 look at that in perspective, and I think that's what we 22 need to consider in the policy, you know, there's like 23 everybody tested in the County right now is six percent 24 of the people are positive. That's the people that -- 25 that look -- that have symptoms that are tested 21 1 primarily. That's a low percentage. So if you just 2 encounter people in the County, you're probably down to 3 one or two percent of the people at most have COVID. So 4 how much -- how much risk have our employees really 5 encountered because of COVID? 6 If you say, well, there's something, but yet 7 to compensate for that increased risk, which I think is 8 not really high, okay, then we gotta pot of money. It's 9 saying -- some things that the consultant will help us 10 guide through, that's what we need to use that money 11 for, for protection, Plexiglass, etc., etc., etc. All 12 kinds of expenses. 13 But it -- then again, it's not free money. 14 All of us are paying taxes for that money that the 15 Federal Government's giving us. Kerr County is not 16 giving it specifically. So I think we need to clearly 17 look at seriously how much risk our various departments 18 are looking at. So I think that that's what needs to be 19 incorporated in the policy. So those are my comments. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, I -- I 21 agree with that. But the one thing I want to add is -- 22 what separates it is, can you mitigate the risk? And I 23 think that's why patrol deputies, they have -- they 24 don't have an option to be able to mitigate the risk. 25 They have to go and deal with the public one-on-one. 22 1 Very close situations, one-on-one. They don't have a 2 choice there. 3 Whereas you take the -- you know, any of our 4 office staff in the courthouse, we put up Plexiglass, 5 they socially distance both to the public and internally 6 in the office. So they've mitigated their risk. And I 7 think you have to look at the mitigation issue as to who 8 qualifies. 9 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I better not say 10 anything. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, go ahead, Don. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: We're getting bogged 13 down. Good grief. It just doesn't make sense. To me, 14 again, it looks like it's pretty easy to just say 15 Sheriff's Department, Jailers, all those. I mean, it 16 goes without saying they're at risk. I mean, they have 17 to react spontaneous to whatever. Aggression or 18 whatever they encounter. 19 Same way out here in the hallways. Our 20 deputies out here. I mean, the other day I walked out 21 there and there was like four people stacked up, waiting 22 to get in the tax office or the clerk's office or one of 23 those. And they're around people all -- as much or more 24 than the people inside almost. So there's varying 25 degrees of this and it -- it's going to get bogged down 23 1 in trying to figure something out. 2 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I can tell you there 3 were four of us on the conference call Friday morning. 4 And we had our HR Director, we had our Auditor, and we 5 had an assistant -- one of the Deputy Auditors. And 6 when we hung up from that phone call, we were all 7 alarmed. And I called an immediate meeting back here at 8 the courthouse. And we brought Jonathan into it to sit 9 down and talk about this and try to work through how do 10 we fix the problem. Because there is no reason for us 11 to put ourselves at risk. 12 People need to understand that we're going 13 to be audited. There is a call-back provision in these 14 grants. And if we don't do it right, we're not going to 15 get reimbursed. And if we do get reimbursed and they go 16 back and audit it -- and these audits can go on for five 17 to seven years -- their disaster control audits go on 18 for almost forever. And if they look back and say we 19 did not adequately document and evaluate the risk for 20 each person that we give this to, not just a department. 21 It's easy to say a department. And what they -- what 22 Witt-O'Brien was telling us, you really need to evaluate 23 the individuals and exactly what they do. 24 Just a minute, Sheriff, please. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm not saying 24 1 anything. 2 JUDGE KELLY: Well, then go ahead and take 3 the floor, Sheriff. What have you got? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm just waiting on 5 you. Go ahead and finish. I wasn't going to interrupt 6 you. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Well, you and I had some 8 conversation that our consultants tell us that we're in 9 trouble with what we've done and we need to fix it. And 10 we came up with -- 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Did they offer a fix? 12 JUDGE KELLY: They do -- eligibility memos. 13 And then we can present departments, classes, categories 14 of employees to them, and they'll give us a paper review 15 that we can put in the file that say we have relied in 16 good faith on what they told us works and what doesn't. 17 And then what they're telling us is we oughta do one, 18 too. And so that's what I'm trying to do. 19 I don't want the taxpayers of this County to 20 end up having to pay $475,940 out of their pocket -- 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Sure. 22 JUDGE KELLY: -- because we were too hasty 23 and too enthusiastic to do this by department when we're 24 being cautioned not to do it by department. When we did 25 it by making it dependent upon the availability of the 25 1 CARES Act fund, which we're not supposed to do when we 2 haven't enumerated what these criteria are. 3 The simple fact is that we came up with on 4 Friday, and it took us what, an hour, hour and a half to 5 do this. And we've got those -- we've got those 6 sections. Public safety, public health, human services. 7 And then we have to have the similar that's 8 substantially dedicated to -- let me just get the word 9 right -- to mitigating and responding to the COVID-19. 10 And then we said that the duties -- because you have to 11 compare what's regular pay versus hazard pay, which it 12 needs to be above and beyond your regular duties due to 13 COVID to tie it directly to COVID and to be above and 14 beyond your regular duties. 15 We recommended that there must be a risk of 16 additional hazard duty or physical hardship, because 17 it's gotta be something new. Not just something that 18 you -- that you've done before. And that the exposure 19 cannot be mitigated. That's huge. That the exposure 20 cannot be mitigated. If you're behind Plexiglass or 21 you're using PPE or if you're working remotely, then 22 that's mitigation. And then finally we said that we 23 want to follow the CDC guidelines and with these 24 jailers, if you just think about these jailers and 25 patrol deputies, that if you are less than six feet 26 1 social distancing, if you've got to arrest somebody, 2 you're on. If you've got to take somebody -- putting 3 somebody back in the jail cell, you don't have a choice. 4 That's less than six feet. And it has to be for longer 5 than 15 minutes. Those are the CDC guidelines. 6 And so those are the criteria that we're 7 trying to establish to have a policy so that we can 8 review it and put the paperwork in the file and so when 9 the Federal Auditor's come along, we can pull out our 10 file and say Witt-O'Brien said A-OK. These are the 11 enumerated risks that these people face. And this is 12 the evaluation that we -- what we think they would 13 qualify for hazard pay. And we don't have a paper 14 trail. We're just doing it across the board. And 15 that's what they told us we shouldn't be doing. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, you -- you 17 mentioned that they have to be at risk above and beyond 18 the normal call of duty. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's only one of the 21 factors that -- it -- it could be something else. It's 22 not necessarily that that one has to be applied. You 23 could apply another one. You don't have to have them 24 all in there. So the way this thing reads is that the 25 position must serve in one of the following capacities. 27 1 Now, does that then supposed to tell us that all four of 2 these criteria here, duties performed must be above and 3 beyond the regular, there must be a risk of additional 4 hazard in performing their duty with the public, that 5 exposure cannot be mitigated, and use of PPE is 6 considered mitigation. Are you saying all of those have 7 to be in place or one of them has to be in place? 8 JUDGE KELLY: What Witt-O'Brien is telling 9 us, is to have those criteria and evaluate them. And if 10 somebody meets one then you can support them a little 11 lower than somebody who meets all of them. Our first 12 responders meet all of them clearly. And these were -- 13 these were actually promulgated or -- we formulated them 14 saying we know that's what they experience, and so we 15 want them to be qualified to get this hazard pay, and so 16 we kicked this off. 17 And if we got applicants that -- for this, 18 we can say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And if you get five 19 yeses, let's say you get a score of five. If you get 20 four yeses, you get a score of four. There's a 21 difference in the risk of that, that's what they want us 22 to use, a difference in evaluating the risk of each 23 person who gets this hazard pay. And not just everybody 24 gets the same thing. The cookie cutter approach is 25 going to get us into trouble. 28 1 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah. Well, that's 2 one of my main concerns when we first started talking 3 about this is not just putting it out there, all these 4 different departments, and then Kerr County residents, 5 the taxpayers, are on the hook for it later on because 6 it doesn't qualify. 7 The Auditor and I spoke last week about it 8 and it was our -- both of our main concerns that who's 9 going to qualify and if we do this that we're not on the 10 hook for it down the road. It doesn't apply to the 11 grant. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah, this -- this 13 isn't like the grant, for example, that put in the sewer 14 system needs for Kerr County. That's not something 15 anybody is in a hurry with, what you mentioned before, 16 Judge. These funds came to us before there were any 17 real State guidelines, before anybody knew what to do 18 with them. Everything about this year has been 19 different. It's been topsy-turvy. It's been sideways 20 with one wheel wobbling. And so for us to have done 21 what we did last week, I don't -- I don't think that 22 there was anything unusual or weird or lack of thought 23 behind it. 24 JUDGE KELLY: But we need to fix it. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We may need to fix it 29 1 now, so -- but we've got some good guidelines and then 2 we -- but this is going to slow down the whole process 3 and that's what we were trying to avert a little bit. 4 JUDGE KELLY: Sure. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Don't want to run ahead 6 and get in trouble, but I understand what you're talking 7 about with them clawing back these funds. I don't -- 8 can't run that risk because the taxpayers are on the 9 hook for it. But we still want to help our County 10 employees as well. 11 JUDGE KELLY: I agree 110 percent. But the 12 problem is, we cannot give them hazard pay for hazards 13 in the past that they've -- that they've been exposed to 14 in the past. It's gotta be present and future. And the 15 truth of the matter is that we flattened the curve on 16 this thing. We knocked it down. The worst is behind 17 us, I hope. But I still want to do hazard pay for the 18 people that still have -- are exposed to this. The 19 truth of the matter is, we could have been doing this 20 back in June. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. We didn't know. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Right. Should have. Yeah. 23 And so, what -- all I'm advocating is, give us time to 24 put together a policy and a process that is defensible. 25 And I think we went giant steps on Friday. We may be 30 1 one meeting away from being able to complete this whole 2 thing. But it needs to be done before we start making 3 across the board, blanket, cookie cutter decisions. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Was the idea that we 5 take -- 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I agree -- 7 JUDGE KELLY: Pardon? 8 COMMISSIONER MOSER: -- hundred percent. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Go ahead, Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I agree with you a 11 hundred percent. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Is the idea that we 13 take these, I don't know, these points -- I don't know 14 what else to call them -- and make some kind of a 15 checklist out of them and say complete the checklist and 16 they get five dollars an hour, if they get four then 17 they get four, or how's that going to work? Because 18 that's a whole other session. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Well, and that's why -- what 20 my suggestion would be, is to have applications and -- 21 whether they're individual applications or by supervisor 22 applications that they're recommending, I don't know, 23 but we need to have some kind of initial paperwork 24 initiating this process. And there needs to be 25 different levels of review. There needs to be a 31 1 departmental and office level review. And 2 recommendations. 3 COMMISSIONER MOSER: And there needs -- 4 there needs to be different levels of compensation. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. Yes. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Yes. That was -- that was 7 recommended, that -- that we evidence our good faith by 8 not doing everything cookie cutter. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the sheet that 10 we worked on that everyone's looked at, to me that 11 goes -- if that's what we adopt, goes to department 12 heads, elected officials. They look at it and then come 13 back to us based on their position schedule. Not 14 individual employee names, we want to go by the position 15 schedule and what their job duties are, and see who 16 qualifies and who doesn't in their opinion. And then, 17 to use the Judge's scenario, a small committee will look 18 at it and make a recommendation to the Court. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So does that mean that 20 this is going to -- we'll vote on this as policy? 21 JUDGE KELLY: We could. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We could move forward 23 with that. 24 JUDGE KELLY: I don't -- I don't know where 25 we are. The HR drafted this so I don't know. 32 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Are you happy with 2 this? 3 JUDGE KELLY: Pretty much. The one thing 4 that it doesn't have -- I can tell you right now, I've 5 read it a few times since we did it Friday at lunch. We 6 haven't provided for the similar employees, which we 7 need to include. If they've substantially dedicated to 8 the -- to fighting the COVID-19. 9 MRS. DOSS: Again, it's -- that word 10 concerns me because that was not part of the grant 11 criteria. It appears that we still -- Tanya is the 12 grant person so if -- if that similar word is in the 13 grant -- 14 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I was going to ask you 15 the number 38 in the frequently asked questions. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's kind of a vague 17 term. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot of them are vague 19 unfortunately. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. I think it's 21 intentionally vague probably right now because nobody 22 knows how this is going to fall out. 23 MRS. SHELTON: Yes, it is -- just one 24 second. 25 JUDGE KELLY: And one of the overarching 33 1 concerns that I have is we have to remember that this is 2 not free money. These are Federal tax dollars. And we 3 are accountable. And they're expecting us to honor our 4 fiduciary duty to our taxpayers and that we're doing 5 this because it's really necessary and not just because 6 it's for the money available. That's -- that's very 7 important for us to remember. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, it might not even 9 need to be said. But, you know, you have a Sheriff's 10 Deputy going down the road, they've gotta stop and help 11 somebody, they don't have time to get a mask on, they 12 don't have time to do any of the stuff that people do 13 when they're behind the Plexiglass screen, and the 14 guilty next in line is a much different -- much 15 different thing. So that's why we moved forward last 16 week with trying to help the Sheriff's department. 17 JUDGE KELLY: But we -- 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Cowboys doing cowboy's 19 work. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And this is not for 21 past; this is what will happen today, tomorrow -- 22 JUDGE KELLY: I know. But it -- but we 23 didn't -- we didn't differentiate between the risk of a 24 first responder, an actual first responder, and support 25 staff back in the office. And that's -- that's what 34 1 Witt-O'Brien is telling us. We haven't evaluated that. 2 We haven't made any provision for that. 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, we asked 4 questions about it and the Sheriff said that everybody's 5 at risk. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah. I know. And when I 7 talked to Carolina Van Horn, who was the Witt-O'Brien 8 policy lead for the Midwest -- Midwestern America, that 9 was the -- I didn't even bring it up. She brought up 10 the example. She said you have to evaluate dispatchers 11 and patrol first responders differently. They're not 12 the same. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: That was my point last 15 week with the Sheriff. I couldn't see the 16 administrative staff being the same as the first 17 responder. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Now, people in the jail? Man, 19 my -- my hat comes off to them. That's a rough place. 20 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah. They're a notch 21 above the deputies, I think, in my opinion as far as 22 their on-the-job risk. 23 JUDGE KELLY: And I want to do this. Don't 24 get me wrong, folks. I want to do this. I just want to 25 do it right. I don't want to put the taxpayers at risk 35 1 because we got in too big a hurry. 2 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, we've all 3 mentioned that, that's our concern. We don't want to 4 spend money and then, you know, drop the football for 5 not doing it right, so -- 6 MS. SHELTON: According to the guidelines 7 for the coronavirus relief fund guidance from state, 8 territorial, local and tribal government, updated June 9 30th, 2020, that non-exclusive examples of eligible 10 expenditures, number three, is payroll expenses for 11 public safety, public health, healthcare, human services 12 and similar employees whose services are substantially 13 dedicated to mitigating or responding to the COVID-19 14 public health emergency. 15 Number six on that list states, any other 16 COVID-19 related expenses reasonably necessary to the 17 function of government that satisfy the funds 18 eligibility criteria. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We got similar and 20 reasonably. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And now, if I can say I 22 have some issues, and I think the Judge knows this, with 23 different rulings of different opinions from your 24 consultants. 25 Number one, the court order y'all passed 36 1 last week had been viewed and approved by the 2 consultant, okay. They even recommended changes to it. 3 And I gave y'all that, it's in -- in red on the order. 4 They wanted added, "and is affecting the ability of 5 employees to safely conduct their regular duties." And 6 then down farther in the order they wanted added the 7 words, "these unprecedented times." 8 And then they wanted added, right after the 9 five dollars per hour, they wanted, "five dollars hazard 10 pay per hour." They approved this before I ever brought 11 it to y'all. And the County Attorney looked at it, 12 okay. Everybody looked at it, and it got approved. 13 Because it was under the First Responder, like most 14 other counties are using the definition under the 15 Families First Coronavirus Response Act as to who are 16 First Responders. 17 And in the guidelines, it specifically even 18 states that -- question 124, would hazard pay for 19 essential employees, First Responders who have been 20 working during the COVID-19 response be reimbursable 21 under the CRA. If so, for what time period. 22 The answer to that question was yes, as long 23 as hazard pay is not a budgeted item, CRA funds can't 24 cover items that are covered in an applicant's budget, 25 most recent budget, straight salaries and straight time. 37 1 I agree with that. This allowable time frame is from 2 March 1st, '20 to December 30, '20. I agree with that. 3 Now, if you look at the Families First 4 Coronavirus Response Act Questions and Answers under the 5 Department of Labor under who is Emergency First 6 Responders, in amongst other things this says, law 7 enforcement officers, correctional institution 8 personnel, emergency management personnel, 9-1-1 9 operators, as well as individuals who work for such 10 facilities employing these individuals whose work is 11 necessary to maintain the operation of the facility. 12 Now, that includes all my clerks and everybody else. 13 Dispatchers are automatic, 9-1-1 operators. 14 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, that includes 15 maintenance too. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If they're in my 17 facility. And during the first -- that's a good point. 18 Even later, the HR Director in her first e-mail back to 19 the County Judge enlisting who could be eligible for it 20 said directly, Maintenance workers would only be 21 eligible for hazard pay when working in the SO or Jail. 22 So everybody was in agreement. 23 Then I get a call from the Judge saying that 24 the courthouse is blowing up. It's on fire because 25 everybody's trying to figure a way because of the 38 1 guidelines to get it and they want to redo it. Why do 2 my people get thrown under the bus to get it redone? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well -- 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The argument -- 5 JUDGE KELLY: No one is throwing -- 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Wait a minute. No. 7 JUDGE KELLY: -- the Sheriff's Department 8 under any bus. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, you already have. 10 JUDGE KELLY: No, we are not. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, the argument you 12 make about it can't be a blanket, I agree with. 13 Question 38 in the Code -- in the guidelines says, may 14 payments from the fund be used to cover across the board 15 hazard pay for employees during -- working during the 16 State of Emergency? And that answer is no. I totally 17 agree. 18 That goes on, though, after the word no, the 19 guideline says, funding may be used to meet payroll 20 expenses for public safety, public health care -- public 21 health, healthcare, human services, and similar 22 employees who are substantially dedicated to mitigating 23 or responding to COVID-19 public health emergency. 24 Hazard pay is a form of payroll expense and subject to 25 this limitation. So fund payments can only be used to 39 1 cover hazard pay for these individuals. It doesn't say 2 I have to give you what each of those individuals' job 3 duties are. They're the First Responders. 4 Now, in the first part of that, under Number 5 2 question, the guidance says that funding -- 6 JUDGE KELLY: Sheriff, before we -- wait, 7 wait. Number 38 that you just read -- 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I didn't interrupt you, 9 Judge. Please don't interrupt me. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we're not going to 11 get anywhere if you're just up here talking and we can't 12 respond, Rusty. I'm just telling you. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'll be more than happy 14 to respond but -- or let you respond but let me finish 15 what I'm presenting. 16 JUDGE KELLY: We're trying to keep on task 17 here. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I ain't -- 19 JUDGE KELLY: Nobody is disputing first 20 responders qualify. No one. But the question was, 21 may payments from the fund to use to cover across the 22 board hazard pay for employees working during the State 23 of Emergency, and the answer was clearly no. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For employees. It 25 broke out the employees it is eligible for. So -- 40 1 JUDGE KELLY: But not across the Board. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: He's using the term in 3 department sense, you're using it in term of countywide. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You're using it to my 5 individual employees. I'm saying it's not across -- it 6 says public safety. Boom. That's us. That's Sheriff 7 Office. And under the definition of first responders 8 that is the Sheriff's Office. 9 JUDGE KELLY: Correct. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it doesn't say it's 12 all the same. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What I'm saying is -- 14 no, it doesn't. And nothing in here says that it has to 15 say they're all the same. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: All right. Now, the 18 difference is courthouse employees, that's a whole 19 different department. Okay. That has to be evaluated. 20 The clerk has to give you what their duties are and why 21 they need it, the County Clerk. The, you know, Tax 22 Assessor. They have to break that out. That's your 23 differences. All right. 24 JUDGE KELLY: And we do not disagree -- 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now -- 41 1 JUDGE KELLY: -- that your employees are 2 eligible. But the question is we haven't done the risk 3 evaluation. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, there's nothing in 5 there that says that, Judge. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But nothing says they 7 all get the same amount either. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It says -- 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But -- but our Order 10 said not to exceed five dollars. As a department head, 11 he can determine what he wants them to get. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, I don't think he 13 can. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, the other deal -- 15 the other deal the Judge was saying about -- let me go 16 on, please -- mitigating, that it has to be 17 substantially, and let me read the question, Number 2. 18 I'll read it directly so it's coming straight from TDEM. 19 The guidance says that funding can be used to meet 20 payroll expenses for public safety, public health, 21 healthcare, human services and similar employees whose 22 services are substantially dedicated to mitigating or 23 responding to the COVID-19 health emergency. How does a 24 government determine whether payroll expenses for a 25 given employee satisfies the substantially dedicated? 42 1 And he's wanting us to say what our job duties are. 2 Okay. 3 The fund -- the answer is, the fund is 4 designed to provide ready funding to address unforeseen 5 financial needs and risk created by the COVID-19 health 6 emergency. For this reason, as a matter of 7 administrative convenience in light of the emergency 8 nature of this program, a state, territorial, local or 9 tribal government may presume that payroll costs for 10 public health and public safety employees are payments 11 for services substantially dedicated or mitigating or 12 responding to the COVID-19 public health emergency, 13 unless the chief executive or equivalent or the relevant 14 government determines that specific circumstances 15 otherwise -- or indicate otherwise. So all their 16 duties, you can presume it. It's what it says. This is 17 black and white. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We do. We do. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, you're wanting me 20 to spell out in an application what their duties are. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty, are you going to 22 tell me that your dispatchers are the same exact risk as 23 a patrol deputy? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The dispatcher -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, no. That's a yes or 43 1 no. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. I told y'all that 3 the other day. Because every patrol deputy's box and -- 4 they're having to go in constantly into our dispatch. I 5 had a dispatcher take FMLA and was -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can go to HEB -- 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Wait a minute. Was 8 approved by the doctor because of her having a special 9 needs child and being at risk of COVID-19 being one of 10 my dispatchers, and the doctors and the Federal 11 Government approved that for FMLA leave. Okay. They 12 are having that risk. All my people. The jailers are 13 in there. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's not the same 15 risk is what I'm saying. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, it is. 17 JUDGE KELLY: What do you think a Federal 18 Auditor's going to do on this? You think they're going 19 to -- 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well -- 21 JUDGE KELLY: -- believe everything you're 22 just saying right here, that the dispatcher has the 23 exact same risk and exposure as the patrol deputy? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or a jailer? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. The other thing 44 1 is -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- the County Judge has 4 said, and he said it this morning and he said it to me, 5 okay, in an e-mail he'd sent to me, is that the grant is 6 clear that hazard pay cannot apply retroactively, yet 7 your reasoning seems to be based more on what they were 8 exposed to previously than the present situation. 9 Let me read you question number 46 in the 10 grant guidelines. Is retroactive payment of hazard pay 11 of public safety, public works, and parks employees back 12 to March to date an eligible cost? Your consultant says 13 no. You can't go retroactive. Our County Judge is 14 saying no. You can't go retroactive. 15 The State is saying answer, yes. As long as 16 hazard pay is not a budgeted item, CRF funds can't cover 17 items that are covered in a jurisdiction's most recent 18 budget. Regular salaries are straight time. 19 Additionally, because our hazard pay is a form of 20 payroll expense, CRF funds may only be used for the 21 hazard pay of public safety, public health, healthcare, 22 human services, and similar employees whose services are 23 substantially dedicated, which you can assume, to the 24 mitigating or responding to the COVID-19. I don't know 25 how much clearer you get than what's written in black 45 1 and white in TDEM's guideline. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're not listening, 3 Rusty. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. But what y'all 5 are trying to do is throw out my people, say we're going 6 to back up and we're going to start all over. And what 7 I saw in the Judge's -- in his actual agenda item is 8 backup and take a study. A thorough study and look at 9 it. I've seen this County do thorough studies. This 10 may came back up next year when it's over. 11 JUDGE KELLY: I want to have something next 12 week. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I don't -- 14 JUDGE KELLY: Next week. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I don't appreciate 16 what's happened. It went through and -- 17 JUDGE KELLY: Why -- why can't we just tap 18 the brakes and fix this problem, Sheriff, and come back 19 next week and adopt a policy and get this benefit to 20 your employees as quickly as we can and protect the 21 taxpayers from any liability of -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because your -- your 23 proposed policy doesn't even track what this says. The 24 definition -- the Office of Personnel Management of the 25 U.S. Government defines -- these are the ones that are 46 1 going to enforce all these guidelines and all this 2 stuff, they define hazardous duty. What is considered 3 hazardous duty or duty involving physical hardship? 4 Hazardous duty is duty performed under circumstances in 5 which an accident could result in serious bodily jury or 6 death. Duty involving physical hardship is duty that 7 may not in itself be hazardous, but causes extreme 8 discomfort, physical discomfort or distress and is not 9 adequately alleviated by protective or mechanical 10 devices. 11 JUDGE KELLY: We don't -- we don't dispute 12 that. What's the issue? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what I'm 14 wondering. Why are we backing up on all this? 15 JUDGE KELLY: Because we need -- 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There was a policy that 17 was adopted last week to do it just like Harley said. 18 By department. I presented it to you for my department. 19 And I presented the understanding why. And it was 20 looked at and it was approved by your consultant. Okay. 21 And it was looked at and approved by the County 22 Attorney. And now, because -- just because everybody 23 else at the courthouse blew up over it, we're going to 24 rescind it. 25 JUDGE KELLY: That's not the case. 47 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It is. Because that's 2 exactly what it was. It went on the agenda without me 3 even being notified. I had to call about it. And when 4 I called -- if you want me to play you the phone call 5 that said it was because of the courthouse blew up, I'll 6 play it right now. Because that's what it was. 7 JUDGE KELLY: No one is -- 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The phone call says 9 nobody in my employ -- nobody was questioning any of my 10 employees. All right. And what they wanted to do was 11 back up because of it. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we should have 13 followed Commissioner Moser's advice then and waited for 14 a policy. If we did, we wouldn't be here today. 15 JUDGE KELLY: We really should have. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The policy was adopted 17 with the guidelines. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's not an adequate 19 policy. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You adopted it. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's right. And we're 22 going to rescind it. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 24 JUDGE KELLY: We've got to -- 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And that's all the 48 1 other item that I put on the agenda because that's what 2 I asked the County Attorney to adopt the order passing 3 for my employees. Are you going to rescind the policy 4 and you're going to rescind my order today? And I had 5 another -- it's an amendment to it to pass an order. 6 Because the thing is, gentlemen, and what I 7 have an issue with is, and I responded to Judge Kelly 8 because he kept trying to say he's going to protect the 9 taxpayers and I agree with that a thousand percent. I 10 think we should. Okay. You know, I don't have any 11 problem with that. But there was a -- the agenda item, 12 when it was even done to hire the -- the consultants or 13 even before that, you know, the guidelines of this came 14 out on May the 20th, okay? Y'all passed a deal, and at 15 first if you read the minutes, it says to -- to bring 16 back and interview consultants. But when it got passed, 17 all right, the motion that was made in that same agenda 18 item that passed it, was Jonathan making the motion 19 saying we authorize the County Judge to secure the grant 20 advisor; not even to interview or bring back to the 21 Court. 22 I've never seen that happen in all my years 23 with this County that you just gave blanket to hire 24 whichever one you want. And the firm was hired to 25 advise -- the firm was hired to advise of eligibility 49 1 expenses. Why was it until I brought up hazard pay at a 2 budget workshop two and a half weeks ago or three weeks 3 ago now, did our consultants never say anything about 4 hazard pay is one of your eligible things that you could 5 do. This could have been hashed out a long -- 6 JUDGE KELLY: It is eligible -- 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- a long time ago, 8 okay? But they never said -- they were supposed to 9 advise you of what's eligible, so why is the first time 10 we ever talked about hazard pay is when I brought it up? 11 Did they tell y'all it was eligible and it was ignored? 12 What happened? My entire office -- and I'm going to 13 read this because he said why are we in such a hurry. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah. Why are we? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My entire office has 16 had to watch as most of the other county offices either 17 closed, cut back to three-day work weeks and were still 18 paid in full, some of those being departments under your 19 control and the Court's control; not elected officials. 20 My office has watched as this County spent 21 thousands of dollars in shields and the office still 22 remained closed or only partly opened. They have 23 watched when the office closed, forced our citizens to 24 stand out in the hallways and our Courthouse Security 25 officers -- my deputies, okay, Courthouse Security are 50 1 Sheriff's Office employees. 2 I had that question brought up. Why should 3 they, they're -- you know, why should they be under the 4 Sheriff's Office? How can you not consider them? 5 They're Deputy Sheriffs. I assign them to the 6 courthouse. For us having to deal with them directly in 7 the offices because the offices will not let those 8 citizens in, all the time knowing that the Sheriff's 9 Office employees were dealing with them themselves 10 directly. 11 I have watched as our so-called experts, in 12 your words, say I don't know. And that's the exact 13 words you used with me on the phone the other day, 14 Judge, is that the experts -- the consultant said, I 15 don't know, and have approved one order and now 16 disapprove it. 17 These experts this entire time either never 18 advised that my employees were eligible for hazard pay 19 or it was ignored. The entire time from at least May 20 the funds were given and when -- or when the experts 21 were hired, my employees have been, day in and day out, 22 exposed to hazardous duty, without ever complaining. 23 They are still being exposed every minute without any 24 type of compensation. 25 If you read the definition of hazardous duty 51 1 pay above or hazard duty it states, Hazard duty or work 2 involving physical hardship. Although everyone agrees 3 that they are eligible, nobody now wants to stand up to 4 them and put them first. You want to, again, group them 5 in with the rest of the County employees and, quote, do 6 a thorough review and study, in your own words on the 7 agenda item. All this time my employees will still be 8 exposed. 9 You even allude in your e-mail that this may 10 be over before my employees, all of them, get any type 11 of compensation for what they're going through during 12 this entire pandemic. It has already been at least over 13 two months since the experts were hired. I don't think 14 I'm rushing anything. 15 Lastly, I'm not sure I agree with the 16 additions that Jennifer has added to your guidelines, as 17 above in the definition of hazardous duty. It does not 18 state additional hazardous duty; it states hazardous 19 duty. It just states hazardous duty. 20 Also, I can't find anywhere in the 21 guidelines that it says it has to be for duty beyond 22 their regular duties. They're doing their regular 23 duties and are exposed to it doing those regular duties. 24 I would also remind you that we have 25 constantly witnessed CDC guidelines constantly changing. 52 1 All right. There is nothing in these guidelines 2 anywhere that talks about CDC guidelines on what should 3 be part of your criteria. It's not in anything from 4 TDEM, it's not in anything from the Department of Labor, 5 or in anything from the Department of -- or the Treasury 6 Department that put this out. This is something y'all 7 are -- some are wanting to put into this. 8 And my deal is, I would truly appreciate -- 9 and I appreciate the deal that I think you do need to 10 look at the other employees, and they have -- the other 11 counties and the county departments and they have to 12 justify that because they're not under public safety. 13 They're not under the First Responders. So they should 14 have to dictate out what you're talking about. 15 But my department is already covered. It's 16 in black and white in these guidelines. It's covered. 17 The consultants had no problem with it at first and now 18 they do. They're saying it can't be retroactive. The 19 guidelines say directly it can be. 20 Gentlemen, I just ask you to continue the 21 order or reissue that same order that I said. You know, 22 you talked about the funding. It's a big no no. Okay. 23 I don't know of any contract this County gets into. I 24 haven't seen many that don't start out by saying 25 available. If available funding is available. Okay. 53 1 If funding is available. 2 But, you know, if you want -- because it's 3 on the agenda as an amended item and you want to readopt 4 that order, and I think you plainly can, and you want to 5 leave out those words even though they have already been 6 approved once by the consultants, then fine, but 7 don't -- 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Which words? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The funding. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Funding. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In the -- in the order. 12 It had about the funding. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Now, you talk about 14 retroactive funding. Is that -- 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I haven't asked for it. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. But typically 17 that's pay reimbursement, right? I mean if you go 18 retroactive because you had to spend the money and you 19 get reimbursed on something -- 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think retroactive 21 means all my people are eligible for it from the time it 22 was -- first came out and they approved it March 30th or 23 whatever it says in here to present. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's -- but I haven't 25 asked for that. 54 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But I'm talking about 2 the money that -- you haven't asked for that. You're 3 from here forward talking about. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I asked for it in that 5 order, August the 30th on. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question that I've been 7 trying to ask you and you don't -- either don't hear me 8 or don't want to answer it. You say -- or you were 9 telling me that every one of your employees should get 10 the same maximum amount that they're all equally at 11 risk? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what I've asked 13 for. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you're saying -- 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- that your clerks are 17 as at risk as your corrections officers? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I disagree. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: How do you know? Have 21 you been out there and seen what my clerks do, Jonathan? 22 Do you know what their day -- do you know that my clerks 23 are the ones that go out and check the temperature and 24 ask the questions directly without any shields or 25 protection? 55 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, that's their 2 choice not to wear a shield or protection. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's not their choice. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, it is. Rusty, 5 anyone can put a shield or a mask on. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm talking these 7 Plexiglass shields y'all got everywhere. We don't have 8 that choice. Okay. None of them. The clerks in the 9 jail don't have that choice. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not talking about 11 the jail; I'm not -- 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I've got medical -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- talking about the 14 jail. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- clerks in the jail. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not talking about -- 17 I'm talking about your office clerks. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. They are. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I have a question 20 about -- 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And this Court agreed 22 with that in that last order. And now because everybody 23 else wants to complain -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. That has nothing to 25 do with regular people complaining. It's a matter of 56 1 following the guidelines set out. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It follows the 3 guidelines. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I'd like to hear from 6 the County Attorney. What's your perception of 7 everything? Or -- 8 MRS. STEBBINS: Is there a specific question 9 you have? 10 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: What's that? 11 MRS. STEBBINS: Is there a specific 12 question? 13 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: No, but -- one -- 14 well, I guess there is. How do you feel about what we 15 passed last week? 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Let -- let me put a 17 finer point on it. What's wrong with saying that we 18 authorize hazard pay not to exceed five bucks subject to 19 the rules of the grant? How is that a problem? 20 MRS. STEBBINS: I don't think that it's 21 wrong necessarily, which is why I gave advice that you 22 could do that last week. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 24 MRS. STEBBINS: So I also -- 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So I don't see what the 57 1 problem is with what we had. And Commissioner Letz, you 2 said you thought it was insufficient. And the Judge has 3 said he thought it was insufficient. Where is it 4 insufficient? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's on the 6 implementation of it. I think that we need to have 7 criteria, as to what -- to justify. Rusty's office is 8 pretty simple. They all qualify. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Which is why we already 10 had -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And they all 12 qualify. Do they all qualify for the same amount? The 13 Sheriff says yes. To me, it's questionable. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I feel -- 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But he's the Department 16 Head. He's going to make the decision anyway. We can't 17 review all his people. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I chose that five 19 dollars. I could have said 20 dollars an hour. There 20 is no limit in this grant. I could have said two 21 dollars an hour. I looked at it and felt five dollars 22 an hour for my employees was sufficient. I didn't want 23 to blow this thing way up and get things that are 24 ridiculous. Okay. A lot of counties are using $6.00 an 25 hour. A lot of counties are using $700 a week. I felt 58 1 five dollars an hour. That was strictly to the pay -- 2 to hours worked, okay, and not subject to time and a 3 half or overtime or any of that kind of stuff, it was 4 straight hours worked. If they were off, they were 5 sick, they're on vacation, they don't get it. It's 6 hours worked. Five dollars an hour. 7 MRS. STEBBINS: And I don't think 8 necessarily this goes back to the -- I think what y'all 9 are trying to ask me. I don't think you necessarily 10 have to rescind the order. But if you want to adopt 11 criteria to clarify that order, you're able to do that. 12 And so, if you -- and so you can proceed without 13 rescinding the order and you can -- both orders, and 14 adopt criteria for the rest of the departments. And I 15 think that's consistent with what Rusty's saying is that 16 his folks across the board fit. They fit. The 17 consultant said they fit. The consultant had an 18 opportunity to weigh in. They did. 19 And so now, if you adopt criteria for the 20 rest of the employees for Kerr County, then I think you 21 can still -- I think it still fits with the goals. And 22 in trying to better define what happens next for 23 everybody else who has been working under hazardous 24 conditions. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So in other words, even 59 1 if we pass something that's countywide, it's not going 2 to change anything with the Sheriff's Department. 3 Everything mentioned here in this -- that's titled Kerr 4 County hazard pay criteria, everything that's -- 5 everything that the Sheriff's Department employee has 6 met in this and probably then some. 7 MRS. STEBBINS: Right. It doesn't -- it 8 doesn't have to change anything at all for the Sheriff's 9 Department. You can still have the order that you 10 adopted last week. And then -- 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So this kind of falls 12 -- I'm sorry go ahead. 13 MRS. STEBBINS: And -- and then what you are 14 presented with, with modifications or not, could be the 15 criteria for the rest of the departments. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Which is where we left 17 it last week. 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: And my biggest concern 19 is that it's going to qualify. Tanya -- 20 JUDGE KELLY: Well, let me clarify. What -- 21 I think -- I want to make sure that we're not confusing 22 issues. There is no question whatsoever but that public 23 safety and the Sheriff's Office are eligible for hazard 24 pay. 25 Now you're talking about qualify. Qualify, 60 1 we get back to evaluating the criteria. And in 2 evaluating criteria, just like I've said before, if you 3 meet all five, you score five. If you meet four, you 4 score four. Three, you score three. There is -- what 5 the -- what Witt-O'Brien was telling us is that we have 6 not done the risk and exposure evaluations. And we do 7 not have sufficient documentation on file to defend the 8 decisions that we make. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Going forward. Because 10 we were talking -- the Sheriff's Department, everybody 11 agrees, meets all the requirements. I don't -- I don't 12 know that -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They meet the 14 requirements but are they all the same risk? And the 15 Sheriff says yes. But he -- 16 JUDGE KELLY: And we need to -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- didn't submit that. 18 JUDGE KELLY: -- we need to have paper in 19 our file to be able to show these Auditors that we've 20 evaluated every person's risk that we have approved 21 hazard pay. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what we're 23 saying. This -- I'm not going to argue with the 24 Sheriff. I mean, I disagree but if he says that they're 25 all -- but he hasn't -- you know, other than saying it 61 1 here in court. We have nothing in the file other than 2 these minutes that say, yes, all of my people are at 3 equal risk and here's why. And -- 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. The burden of 5 proof falls on him. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- that's what we need. 7 That's what we need. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the other thing -- 10 JUDGE KELLY: That's what we have to defend 11 with these Federal Auditors. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the other part of it 13 is with the -- on the order, one of the main things that 14 -- the meeting I was at Friday was the language that 15 says availability of funds probably should not be in 16 there. Yes, they had approved this. And now they're 17 saying that should not be in there. 18 MRS. SHELTON: So my comment on the order, 19 they did not approve our order. We discussed it with 20 them via the phone. Via the phone, they told us to add 21 in the availability of the employees to safely conduct 22 their regular duties, and they asked us to put in that 23 it was during these unprecedented times. We added the 24 word "hazard pay" for the five dollars just as 25 clarification that that was what the five dollars was. 62 1 So while it was discussed with them, they did not 2 actually receive this and approve this specific order. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So that's correct about 4 the availability of funds. They recommend now that that 5 not be in here? 6 MRS. STEBBINS: So -- 7 JUDGE KELLY: Yes. 8 MRS. STEBBINS: -- the one on Friday, which 9 was a different time than the Friday before, did say 10 that. 11 JUDGE KELLY: In fact, I believe the way she 12 worded it was, it's a red flag. It's a red flag to the 13 auditors. When they get it and they look down there and 14 see that we made this subject to the availability of 15 their funding, then it's almost like there's an 16 assumption they're trying to take advantage of it rather 17 than they really have a genuine need and that's the 18 unity that they're trying to meet. 19 And so the advice was you're better off to 20 take that kind of wording out because you won't -- it 21 won't drew the attention of these Auditors when they 22 look at it the first time. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's pretty -- 24 JUDGE KELLY: We appreciated the advice. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's not changing the 63 1 content of the order, it's just cleaning up some 2 language that our consultants are saying we probably 3 should not have included. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, it's prudent to 5 listen to somebody you've hired for this very purpose. 6 The Sheriff had a valid point. They didn't bring this 7 to our attention until he brought it up. So are we 8 really getting our bang for our buck, would be my 9 question to them. And it's wise to clean up the wording 10 on it so that we protect the County and the taxpayers. 11 This is Federal money which we all pay into. 12 But if they -- it's been decided to -- to reject our 13 grant, then we can look for it. That's what we're 14 trying to avoid, right? 15 Just so everybody knows, I mean everybody 16 watching at home, that's what all this discussion has 17 been about. 18 JUDGE KELLY: And that's all we've asked is 19 to give us time to fix it. And here we are. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I don't think, though, 21 that -- I mean, I -- we may be over-thinking it a little 22 bit. We're just trying -- this is, as everybody has 23 said, unprecedented times. You've heard that over and 24 over and over again. And now, suddenly, we've gotta 25 stop. You know, we were told you can't go to work, you 64 1 can't do all these other things, you've gotta change 2 your whole life and now we try to help and they go, time 3 to stop and look at it. All of a sudden -- 4 JUDGE KELLY: Well, it's not them. They're 5 giving me advice and I'm -- 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: It's our legal counsel. 7 JUDGE KELLY: -- and it -- it scares me. It 8 scares me the exposure that our taxpayers will have. 9 MRS. STEBBINS: What was that about legal 10 counsel? It was the advisors -- 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah, I'm sorry. 12 MRS. STEBBINS: -- or the consultants to the 13 grant. 14 JUDGE KELLY: We can do this better. So 15 we've learned that we can do it better, let's do it. 16 Why not? 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, back to Rusty's 18 point. They missed this. They didn't advise us that 19 this was available law. And that is really part of 20 their job. So now, all of a sudden, we've got a, whoa, 21 wait a minute, they said something to us. They paid 22 attention to us and now we're going to change everything 23 we did last week. I'm a little irritated about it. I 24 mean, we -- we did something last week in good faith 25 that helped -- was going to help some of our most 65 1 exposed employees. Now we're going to pull it back and 2 it's, for all appearances, because some people 3 complained about it, other employees. That's what it 4 looks like. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Well, what we want to do is 6 fix it. Nobody wants to pull anything back. We need to 7 do the evaluations and we need to document them. And we 8 need to put them in the file. That has to be done. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I don't have a 10 problem with continuing, you know, cleaning up the order 11 a little bit. It's pretty minor. And I don't have a 12 problem with continuing it, but I think that the Sheriff 13 in the next week has to come back with some 14 documentation justifying, you know, what we're doing. 15 Other than just saying that they're all -- they all 16 qualify. 17 I don't think that the statement that the 18 law says that law enforcement qualifies is an evaluation 19 that, yes, every one of his people need the money and 20 here's why. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But that's not just to 22 satisfy your curiosity, it's also to do what the Judge 23 said, to have firm documentation. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. Right. 25 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I agree with that. 66 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it can be done -- I 2 don't know if -- that being done retroactively, as long 3 as it's done in the next week and put it back on the 4 agenda. And if it's not in, and I'm sure the Sheriff is 5 pretty anxious to get this through, would hopefully do 6 that. 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So can we pass this 8 today with a revision? Just have a revision in the -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Cleaning up the 11 language? 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Cleaning it up -- 13 JUDGE KELLY: There you go. 14 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- that satisfies what 15 we need to do. 16 JUDGE KELLY: Well, we still don't have the 17 paper trail. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But we will. 19 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: We will. 20 COMMISSIONER MOSER: The Court passed 21 something last week that was not very thorough. We need 22 to fix it. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: What additions would 24 you put in it, Commissioner Moser? 25 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I would say that -- 67 1 just exactly what the agenda item says. We need to 2 establish a policy. We don't have a policy. I think 3 what the agenda item was is to consider rescinding -- I 4 think we should rescind the Court Order from last week 5 and establish a policy and bring it back to the Court. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Is that a motion? 7 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Yes. 8 MRS. STEBBINS: Which order? 9 JUDGE KELLY: There are really -- there are 10 really two orders. There's -- and I've got a copy of 11 them here. There's 38265A and 38265B. A says that we 12 adopt a hazardous pay policy for Kerr County employees 13 who qualify according to the Corona Aid Relief Economic 14 Security Act grant not to exceed five dollars per hour. 15 And then B says that -- authorizes the 16 hazardous pay for the Kerr County Sheriff's office and 17 County jail employees who qualify according to the 18 Corona Aid Relief Economic Security Act grant in an 19 amount not to exceed five dollars per hour. And said 20 policy be effective through 12-31-2020. So there's 21 really two orders. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, that's -- I 23 thought there was wording in there about until the funds 24 ran out. 25 MRS. STEBBINS: That is -- 68 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's in the order. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, it wasn't -- what 3 you just read it doesn't have in there. 4 MRS. STEBBINS: It's in that order. That 5 piece of paper order. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In the written part. 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Oh. 8 MRS. STEBBINS: It's an additional order 9 with that. 10 JUDGE KELLY: I know. 11 MRS. STEBBINS: The one that Rusty said that 12 I got before -- 13 JUDGE KELLY: It's sitting on my desk. I 14 know where it is. 15 MRS. STEBBINS: Okay. Great. 16 JUDGE KELLY: The order that we're talking 17 about that has the fund availability in it, is the one 18 that the Sheriff brought. Not -- not the one that the 19 County Clerk shared after court. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Because she broke it down into 22 an A and a B. A is policy and B is the active order. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So which one is -- 24 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So it's A that I'm 25 recommending. A is for the -- regarding the motion. 69 1 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. I'll second that. So 2 we have a motion and a second. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I want to read 4 through these real quick for a minute. 5 My comment is I think A needs to be 6 rescinded, not B. 7 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Jonathan, A is to 8 establish a policy? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A says -- 10 JUDGE KELLY: It says it does. Approve -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- approve and adopt a 12 hazardous pay policy for Kerr County employees who 13 qualify accordingly. That's what we don't have. 14 JUDGE KELLY: That's exactly what we don't 15 have. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll -- you know, I 17 agree with rescinding that. But B is talking about the 18 Sheriff's Department and I disagree with rescinding 19 that. 20 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I don't have it in 21 front of me. So A says -- it doesn't say establish a 22 policy, it says adopt a policy? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 24 JUDGE KELLY: Right. 25 COMMISSIONER MOSER: We need to establish a 70 1 policy. So with me not having that in front me what's 2 -- what's the best way to understand that motion? 3 JUDGE KELLY: Well, A -- the A order says 4 that we are supposed to adopt a hazard pay policy. The 5 B order specifically gives to the Sheriff's Office and 6 the Jailers hazard pay not to exceed five dollars per 7 hour. 8 COMMISSIONER MOSER: But that could be 9 inconsistent with the policy. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: No. Because he already 11 -- he already complies with everything that's in the 12 proposed policy now, Tom. 13 COMMISSIONER MOSER: But that was our 14 discussion about administration staff doesn't have the 15 same risk as the front line officers. 16 JUDGE KELLY: That gets into the evaluation. 17 But not the eligibility. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Okay. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Just the evaluation. The risk 21 evaluation. 22 COMMISSIONER MOSER: So shouldn't the 23 evaluation be part of the policy, Judge? 24 JUDGE KELLY: Absolutely. 25 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Right. 71 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean I think -- 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: The criteria is the 3 part of the evaluation. That's part of the policy. The 4 evaluation falls under what's established in the 5 criteria in the policy. 6 JUDGE KELLY: I don't understand what you're 7 saying. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: The evaluation is a 9 process of going through and asking people what are the 10 criteria itself. 11 JUDGE KELLY: And that's like my example if 12 we have five criteria, some people meet all five, some 13 meet four or three -- 14 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Oh, but you're mixing 15 nouns with verbs. So you do an evaluation. Right? 16 That's a verb. You have a policy. That's a noun. 17 That's apples and oranges. Does that make sense? 18 JUDGE KELLY: Well -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. But I mean -- let 20 me -- the way I look at it, and maybe this is what 21 you're saying, I'm not sure -- is that to me, the policy 22 includes the Sheriff's Department without question. So 23 it's part of the policy. Whether it's written in right 24 now or not. We need to do a policy. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 72 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All the rest of the 2 County employees, we need to get this policy written and 3 approved, in my mind, next week. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we can go ahead -- 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But after we've gone 6 through all this, that's what we said last Monday. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But now we have 8 a lot more information. And we're not talking about the 9 Sheriff. Everybody except the Sheriff. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the Sheriff we can 12 continue -- to me, B can stay. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But A needs to be 15 rescinded. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, A -- we -- it 17 says we're going to establish a policy is what it says 18 basically. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, we -- it's approve 20 and adopt the policy. It doesn't say we're going to, it 21 says we've done it. And we haven't done it. We adopted 22 a very -- well, we adopted a policy -- 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We adopted a policy. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a very general 25 policy. 73 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 2 JUDGE KELLY: We adopted the CARES Act. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, we adopted the 4 CARES Act. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Whatever that is. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's already 8 there. So -- and maybe we need to clarify that policy. 9 Maybe. But to me, B can stay because it's going to be 10 within the policy. And we know that. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. Right. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Exactly. Exactly. 13 We've been talking about an hour and 20 minutes to get 14 to that point. But yes. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I still disagree with 16 the Sheriff on some points but that's -- you know, 17 that's his office. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I see Rusty over 19 there. That's where I thought we left it last week. We 20 were going to put a policy together for all the other 21 departments and the Sheriff was going to proceed. 22 JUDGE KELLY: And -- and I got into it and 23 found out that it was -- it's a big project. And we 24 made enormous progress on Friday alone. Spent all day 25 on it. 74 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're close on a 2 policy for everybody else, but I think the Sheriff -- we 3 can move forward on. We can do what we did last week 4 which will be effective tomorrow. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So does that change the 6 motion? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the motion is to 8 rescind B and there's a motion and a second. 9 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Modify the motion to 10 rescind A instead of the policy. 11 JUDGE KELLY: And how -- how are we going to 12 get these evaluations? How are we going to get the 13 paperwork necessary to be able to defend what you're 14 doing? 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That would be part of 16 your policy that you establish that they have -- 17 JUDGE KELLY: So the Sheriff's Office is 18 going to do all of this after today? We're going to put 19 it together and -- 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I think -- 21 JUDGE KELLY: -- tell him what he needs to 22 do and -- no, it hasn't been done. That's -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 24 JUDGE KELLY: -- it was across the board. 25 And I think across the board is going to get us in 75 1 trouble. That's what I've been telling you. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that he -- I 3 think we can approve it to go in place tomorrow and he 4 has verbally told us -- I think he's going to reduce it 5 to writing what his policy is going to be, what he 6 thinks his criteria are. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I feel I've 8 verbally said it, it's been taken down by the Court 9 Reporter in the minutes, and I'm asking to continue that 10 policy. You may want to change the funding. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I still think, 12 Sheriff, you need to put it in writing, not just what 13 you said here. I think you need to give us how you 14 determine your policy. 15 MRS. STEBBINS: Does the e-mail that he sent 16 you all satisfy that? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The question is, that my 18 understanding is we would have to look at it a little 19 bit by position. And there's no question everyone in 20 the Sheriff's Department qualifies. Do they all qualify 21 at the same risk level? Sheriff's position is yes. I 22 think he should say that. And that's the policy. 23 JUDGE KELLY: Well, but -- but I think the 24 number 38 answer that we just read earlier said no, we 25 couldn't do it across the board. 76 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't think 38 says 2 you are doing it across the board, Judge. 3 JUDGE KELLY: It says no. When they asked 4 may we do it across the board and the answer is no. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's exactly right. 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But is that across the 7 board in a department or -- 8 MRS. STEBBINS: It's actually -- 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But then it says about 10 public safety employees, they're different. Across the 11 board is all the other employees. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The Sheriff's Office is 14 public safety employees. 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 38 is exactly right the 17 way it's worded. I don't have a problem with it. And 18 that's what I'm saying, this whole thing is already 19 spelled out in 38. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But 38 doesn't say that 21 they're all the same. That's what I'm saying, Rusty. 22 You need to tell us in writing that you consider all of 23 your employees equally at risk. It's -- 38 doesn't say 24 that. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't think it 77 1 matters. There's nothing in the grant or the guidelines 2 or anything that say that that is required, Jonathan. 3 38 says public safety. Then you have the first 4 responder definition, which covers all my employees. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it doesn't say 6 they're all the same, Rusty. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What are -- well, why 8 do they even have to be? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because I think you have 10 to have criteria. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Why do they have -- you 12 -- this doesn't say that. The Judge is wanting that. 13 Okay. 14 JUDGE KELLY: No, the consultants want that. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It -- it doesn't -- 16 they didn't when the policy was passed. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. You're -- what 18 you're saying is that public safety is the heading that 19 involves everybody from the 9-1-1 operators to the first 20 responder. Is that what you're saying? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And the first 23 responders are a little bit different category. Front 24 line guys. But when -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, he's not -- he says 78 1 they're all the same. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But I -- I'm -- 3 JUDGE KELLY: And I don't buy it. I'm 4 sorry. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Are you -- 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So First Responders 7 you're saying that, right? 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: You have listed -- 9 basically you said public safety, that's everybody. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And it says -- it goes 13 on, question number 124 says, When hazard pay for 14 essential employees, parenthesis, first responders, who 15 have been working COVID during -- or working during the 16 COVID-19 response will be reimbursed. Okay. 17 And if you go over to the Department of 18 Labor's definition that I included in the e-mail to 19 y'all of First Responders, it says Sheriff's office -- 20 not Sheriff's office, law enforcement officers, 21 correctional institution personnel, Emergency Management 22 personnel, 9-1-1 operators, as well as individuals who 23 work for such facilities employing these individuals and 24 whose work is necessary to maintain the operation of the 25 facility. 79 1 JUDGE KELLY: All that means is that they're 2 eligible. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's right. They're 4 eligible. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Now we're talking about 6 evaluating them. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They're eligible. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Evaluate risk -- 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I gave y'all what I 10 recommended for my employees. I gave you what I 11 recommended. Five dollars an hour. If you want to 12 recommend for Dawn's it's ten dollars an hour or if she 13 wants to, if she can come in here and justify it and say 14 it, I told you my justification and the order was 15 passed. 16 JUDGE KELLY: But it will not pass Federal 17 audit and that's my concern and that's a liability to 18 the taxpayers. Just because you say it's all equal 19 doesn't mean that it is. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And just 'cuz you say 21 it doesn't mean it is either, Judge. 22 JUDGE KELLY: That's correct. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We can go tit for tat 24 for that. Okay. 25 JUDGE KELLY: That's what -- 80 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I've worked grants 2 here for 40 years on this stuff. But what I'm saying 3 is, what I've been hearing from the consultants has been 4 back and forth so much it's unreal. And I think the 5 grant says it directly. 6 It says in Number 2 on it about funds for 7 the design -- funds -- the fund is designed to provide 8 ready funding to address unforeseen financial needs and 9 risks created by the COVID-19 public health emergency. 10 For this reason, as a matter of administrative 11 convenience in light of the emergency nature of this 12 program, and this is of emergency nature, a state, 13 territorial, local or tribal government may presume that 14 payroll cost for public health, public safety employees 15 are payments for sub -- services for substantially 16 dedicated to the mitigating. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're all -- we 18 all agree on that. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Why do we keep going over 20 these definitions when we're all agreeing? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all it says. 22 That's all it says. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because you're adding 24 stuff in there that's not necessary and I've already 25 justified it. 81 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It just says -- okay, 2 they're eligible. We'll just say one -- one dollar? 3 You asked for five. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I asked for five. This 5 Court approved it. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we're just saying 7 now to tell us -- we know they're eligible. We're just 8 asking you to tell us if they're -- what level they 9 should be paid at. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I did. 11 JUDGE KELLY: We need you -- 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Judge? 13 JUDGE KELLY: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Judge, I -- I make a 15 motion we rescind A and B and establish a policy. 16 Establish a policy for each -- all departments in the 17 County, including the Sheriff's Department. 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: We already have a 19 motion on the floor. 20 JUDGE KELLY: No. No, he withdrew it. 21 Well, do you withdraw all your motions except this last 22 one? 23 COMMISSIONER MOSER: I withdraw the first 24 motion. I'm -- I'm modifying the motion. 25 JUDGE KELLY: But your motion is to rescind 82 1 A and B? 2 COMMISSIONER MOSER: And establish a policy 3 for all departments in the County, including the 4 Sheriff's Department. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. I'll second that. 6 Discussion? 7 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, I thought we 8 were pretty close about five minutes ago or ten minutes 9 ago. I think it's just -- we need to clean up the 10 wording on last week. I agreed that we could go forward 11 with the Sheriff's Department. 12 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Well, that's 13 establishing the policy. 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, I -- I think we 15 -- I'm not for rescinding it. Like you said, we need to 16 go forward. 17 MRS. LANTZ: Can I say something, please? 18 COMMISSIONER MOSER: We spent an hour and a 19 half trying to clean it up and we've been zero success. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Miss Lantz? 21 MRS. LANTZ: Yes. My understanding last 22 week, and I just want this clarified on the record. 23 When I stood up here, I was talking on supporting the 24 Sheriff's Office to get their hazardous duty pay. 25 I understand where everybody else was in 83 1 this County. There's guidelines that have to be met and 2 followed in order for those people to get that. So I 3 don't want anyone to pursue -- assume that I was sending 4 anything in requesting for my clerks. 5 Do I request it? Yes. But I will wait on 6 that. So I was a little offended thinking that I was 7 throwing, or anybody else was in the County throwing in 8 stuff trying to get hazardous duty pay. Everybody is 9 deserving that worked, everybody is. 10 COMMISSIONER MOSER: They are. 11 MRS. LANTZ: So I just want that clarified. 12 And I do back the Sheriff's Office and I know what those 13 clerks go through because I'm sitting in that courtroom 14 over at the jail when they're having to handle those 15 prisoners. So yes, all clerks are exposed to it, 16 whether y'all believe it or not. At what level? In his 17 department? I mean, I think it's pretty risky. But 18 mine may not be as risky. But we still have -- all have 19 the exposure. Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, you have to 21 read -- you know, we're cherry picking the guidelines 22 that we're talking about here. There's a lot -- there's 23 like, I don't know, in that question/answer thing 24 there's, what, 50 or so questions? And -- 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: About 300. 84 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- a lot of it talks 2 about mitigating and whether you can mitigate and a lot 3 of different risk factors. So there's a lot of issues 4 that go into it, that's why I think the Judge, and I 5 agree with this on this part, that we need to have a 6 policy that clears is it a new risk. 7 The Sheriff, clearly, his whole department 8 qualifies. It's all eligible. He thinks they're all 9 the same. I think he -- all I'm asking is that he tell 10 us that. And have some criteria for us so that we can 11 have an audit trail when we get audited. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: He did. He said it was 13 all public service. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And he just -- and he 15 said that it's because he said it here in court. So 16 I -- well, you know, I'm not sure if that's going to -- 17 JUDGE KELLY: But -- but the final review is 18 not going to be us believing the Sheriff's evaluation. 19 It's going to be whether or not the Auditors believe it. 20 That's what's at risk. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But all -- all I 22 want is a -- something that we can point to and say the 23 Sheriff gave us some criteria, he thinks everyone is 24 equal, and here's the reason why, and having it in a 25 document as opposed to having to say -- tell the 85 1 auditors, well, yeah, the Sheriff said go look at our 2 minutes or our Court minutes. 3 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: And I'm sure the 4 Sheriff is willing to do that, right? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Okay. That satisfies 7 it for me. Let's take care of the Sheriff's Department. 8 We'll get to the rest of them. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let's just call the 10 question -- let's vote on what's on the table. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But if you're going to 12 rescind it we're going to start all over then I'm going 13 to ask that it be put retroactive. My people are still 14 facing this every single day. 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: You're going to have 16 to restate what -- 17 JUDGE KELLY: The motion that's on the table 18 is to rescind both of these orders, 38265A and 38265B. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And just for the 20 record, the County Attorney said that she approved it 21 last week because she saw no need -- there was no 22 problem with it legally, I agree with her, that's why I 23 stated it the way I did, including the fact that it 24 would be subject to the rules of the grant. I don't 25 know how you can go wrong if you include that in there 86 1 so. 2 JUDGE KELLY: It's not in there. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's not in the order. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's what I said. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's not in the order, 6 the written order. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But that's what he 8 proposed when this was passed. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's what my 10 statement was when I -- when I proposed it. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Well, there is an order. We 12 talked about it. It is not one that the County Clerk 13 prepared, drafted for us. It's the one that the Sheriff 14 brought that I signed after -- after Commissioners' 15 Court last week. And it's sitting on my desk and it is 16 entitled -- it's numbered the same number? 17 MRS. DOWDY: No, I gave it a different 18 number. So it's not numbered -- 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So you're telling me 20 that we passed something in Court and something else was 21 substituted for it later? 22 JUDGE KELLY: No. No. Hold on just a 23 second. Let me get that. 24 (Pause.) 25 JUDGE KELLY: Here's the order that was 87 1 signed, okay, and it is numbered 38265A. And we 2 discovered after I signed it that it really needed 3 probably to be B. Nothing has been changed on it. It's 4 still the way it was -- originally was. 5 This is the exact order that the Sheriff 6 brought and I signed; it is not the order that is before 7 the Court today. But this is the order, right here. 8 This is what we tried to -- it's the order we're talking 9 about rescinding. So let me just pass it around to you. 10 And you'll see it has the available funding. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think what Harley was 12 talking about, Judge, is there was -- y'all made -- 13 there was two different motions made, talking A and B 14 last week. The first one was the policy that there 15 should have been a court order on saying that you 16 adopted the guidelines of the grant. That's what Harley 17 proposed. 18 The second one was, and there should have 19 been an order gone out before that. That's where she's 20 talking to name them A and B. 21 JUDGE KELLY: So that's what this is. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The second one would 23 have been -- okay. And that should say in it, because 24 that's what Harley's motion was, to adopt the 25 guidelines, that's the policy. 88 1 JUDGE KELLY: It does not say that. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But if you go back to 3 the minutes, that's what it was. That's what his motion 4 was. 5 MRS. DOWDY: According to the coronavirus 6 CARES Act grant. So authorized hazardous pay offers -- 7 of the Kerr County Sheriff's Office and County employees 8 who qualify according to CRF grant. So that -- that was 9 what I understood. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I believe it said 11 guidelines in there. Okay. If you'll go back and read 12 the minutes. But that -- that was A. B was the order I 13 brought to y'all. Okay. And it is actually the order 14 before you today. Because that was the addendum that 15 was added to the -- to the agenda. That if you -- if 16 you -- 17 MRS. DOWDY: Item 1.11. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, item 1.11. If 19 you ended up withdrawing both of those, because if you 20 felt that one was wrong, being the first one, and that 21 negated the second one and I just wasn't sure so I even 22 called the County Attorney and asked her, what should I 23 do? She said just to be on the safe side, put the same 24 thing back on the agenda again. So I had to get Jody to 25 put it on early because we were running out of the 72 89 1 hours, right, and she put item 1.11 on there, which is 2 the same order again that you could adopt today if you 3 ended up throwing out the two, to adopt that one so that 4 we could continue moving forward with the Sheriff's 5 Office employees. Okay. And the only revision I would 6 say in that one is if you want to take out about the 7 funding. Take that out, but adopt 1.11. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's what I thought 9 we had arrived on. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So did I. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Well, that's -- that's agenda 12 item 1.11. But we haven't gotten there. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: In our discussion just 14 now, we had arrived at that point, where we were going 15 to take that wording out and just revise it and make it 16 simple. That's what I thought I heard. 17 JUDGE KELLY: So is what we want -- I'm 18 asking -- do we want to get to item 1.11 because that's 19 the order that you -- somebody wants to make a motion to 20 enact. So do we rescind at this point the A and the B 21 here that we did and start over on 11? 22 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, I don't want to 23 waste the hour and a half discussion. Let's go straight 24 to 1.11. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think one and eleven 90 1 are basically the same. It just provides to do the same 2 and the question, I guess, to the County Attorney is 3 rather than rescinding, see if we can clarify it, can we 4 amend that court order and take out that language about 5 funding? 6 MRS. STEBBINS: You can amend the Court 7 order because it says clarify and take out the language 8 about funding so that that order doesn't have the 9 language that -- that is unfavoring to the consultant. 10 And then that way -- and I -- I would think 11 that you also don't have to rescind A and you can plan 12 to next week adopt the proposed criteria that has been 13 presented and may be modified before then. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The question we cannot 15 rescind it, we can just amend it? 16 MRS. STEBBINS: B. Is that right? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: A. 19 MRS. STEBBINS: A. You can -- 20 JUDGE KELLY: Next week. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well -- now? 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Now. 23 MRS. STEBBINS: Can I look at what you're 24 looking at so I'm -- 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: The one with the 91 1 language about -- 2 JUDGE KELLY: Let me propose this. 3 Everybody -- let's take a break. Let's take a five 4 minute recess and give everybody a chance to regroup and 5 come back where we are. 6 (Recess.) 7 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. We'll come back into 8 order. Okay. Where are we? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, there's a motion 10 and a second. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Commissioner Moser is still on 12 the phone? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He said he was probably 14 going to lose us. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And which I guess -- I 17 think he's lost us -- or he's lost. He said he was 18 going into a bad cell area. But the motion is still 19 there, whether he's there or not. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Is that how it works? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: This is all new stuff. 23 MRS. STEBBINS: I don't if that's how it 24 works. You need to vote on that motion. 25 JUDGE KELLY: I think the motion that's on 92 1 the table is to rescind the order with regard to the 2 policy and the order with regard to the Sheriff's Office 3 and jailers, the A and B order. Is that what's before 4 the Court? 5 MRS. DOWDY: And then I also have, and 6 establish a policy for all departments in the County, 7 including the Sheriff's Office. That was what I got. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Another part of the 9 motion. 10 JUDGE KELLY: I'm sorry. 11 MRS. DOWDY: The motion was to rescind 12 38265A and 38265B and establish a policy for all 13 departments in the County, including the Sheriff's 14 Office, and it was seconded. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. That's the motion 16 that's before the Court. Anymore discussion? 17 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: And then we're going 18 to get into 1.11 and go from there, right? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, no, I'm not 20 leaving this one yet. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I mean, 1.11 22 won't need to be -- I don't think if we do this. I 23 don't think. Rusty said he put that on just in case. 24 JUDGE KELLY: Any discussion? Those in 25 favor of the motion raise your hand. Those opposed 93 1 raise your hand. 2 (Commissioners Belew, Letz and Harris 3 opposed.) 4 Those in favor. 5 Let's move on to Item 1.2 -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've got a motion to 7 make on this item still. 8 JUDGE KELLY: On this item? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I have a motion 10 that we amend Court Order 38265B by deleting the 11 following phrase in the second to last paragraph, 12 "or the availability of funds." 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Second. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, 15 whoa. You're talking about this order now, right? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Your order. I want to 17 delete those words. 18 JUDGE KELLY: And that's what's attached to 19 agenda item 1.11? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, that's -- it's 21 also under this one. 22 MRS. STEBBINS: Yeah, it is. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, it's attached to 24 that but I don't see why we can't act on the -- under 25 this item. 94 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: 1.11 is redundant. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 1.11 was put on 3 the agenda in case you withdrew both on the first one. 4 If you withdrew A and B, I kind of wanted 1.11 back on 5 there. But if you're just going to leave -- leaving A 6 and B and just want to amend B, I think it's actually 7 labeled A on there. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. It's B. 9 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I -- I'm confused. Is 10 it in the notebook? 11 MS. GRINSTEAD: Item 1.11 -- they -- I was 12 telling them look at that because your backup in 1.11 is 13 the actual order you were just passing around, which 14 they wanted to look at. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Yes. 16 MS. GRINSTEAD: But if you just amend on 17 item one, letter B, then you don't need to do 1.11. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 19 MS. GRINSTEAD: Like he said, 1.11 was only 20 on there in case you got rid of A and B and we were 21 starting from scratch. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. But now the problem I 23 have is you think that there's a B but I don't think 24 there's a B. Okay. Let me just -- maybe I just need to 25 stand up and look at them. This is what the Sheriff 95 1 brought last week that I signed and it is entitled A. 2 Okay? 3 MS. GRINSTEAD: Which it should be -- it 4 should be B. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I'm just saying, that's 6 the original. 7 MS. GRINSTEAD: Okay. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Now, this is what was 9 in our packet for orders today. And here's the A and 10 here's the B. This B is different than this, if it's B. 11 And you're saying B -- I don't have anything that has B 12 on it. When I look at the agenda packet, the order that 13 I see is this one right here. That's what's in the 14 agenda packet. This is -- 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: It's the same, isn't 16 it? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is different than 18 this. 19 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Oh, is it? 20 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah. Now, this -- you can 21 see that's a copy, you can see the seal on it. 22 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Right. 23 JUDGE KELLY: And is the number changed on 24 that one? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it's -- by me. 96 1 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, one of them is 2 mislabeled. 3 MS. GRINSTEAD: So it's -- 4 JUDGE KELLY: Well, Jackie and I talked 5 about this one. I haven't -- we haven't done anything 6 with it. It's in the exact original condition. 7 Nothing's been done. And it says A. 8 MS. GRINSTEAD: But it should be B. That 9 was a clerical error. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 MRS. STEBBINS: And so if that's the order 12 under 11 that you're talking about that was just not 13 rescinded but needs modification, the one which -- that 14 Commissioner Letz has just made a motion on, then that's 15 probably clearly the order that Commissioner Letz is 16 talking about and not what's attached as 1.11. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can we -- can part of my 18 amendment clarify that this is B not A, based on the 19 court order? 20 MRS. STEBBINS: That would probably be 21 great. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me amend my motion 24 to include that the -- on the court order that was 25 signed by the Judge where it says 38265A, it should read 97 1 38265B. 2 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. And that's this order 3 right here that we're talking about. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's this one. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is that one. You 7 accept my amendment? 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I accept it or second 9 it. 10 JUDGE KELLY: So motion's been made by 11 Commissioner Letz, seconded by Commissioner Harris to do 12 what? 13 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: It's Commissioner 14 Belew. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Commissioner Belew? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A motion is to delete 17 the words in the second to the last paragraph, "or 18 availability of funds," and to correct the Court Order 19 number where -- to read Court Order No. 38265B. 20 JUDGE KELLY: And are we going to print out 21 another order and sign it as a B? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 23 JUDGE KELLY: So that those -- so that the 24 wording on available funds is completely removed from 25 the document? 98 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yes. 3 JUDGE KELLY: So -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 5 JUDGE KELLY: -- today -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My intent is to redo 7 this order. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. And what do we do with 9 this? 10 MRS. DOWDY: Well, are we issuing a new 11 order that would then have a new order number? I don't 12 know why we can't just correct that one and -- I don't 13 know if that's the same. 14 MRS. GRINSTEAD: Well, they want to take out 15 some wording. 16 JUDGE KELLY: They want to amend it. 17 MRS. DOWDY: Well, just mark it out. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. Amend it. 19 That's all you're doing. 20 COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. 21 MRS. STEBBINS: That's right. It would be 22 cleaner to have -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rescind it and -- 24 MRS. STEBBINS: Oh, I was just thinking it 25 would be cleaner to strike through with initials by the 99 1 Judge and to make it B with initial by the Judge because 2 then it's on that agenda and this agenda and so that 3 someone doesn't get confused and have that agenda 4 thinking that's the order as it exists when there's this 5 as modified. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It doesn't -- it seems 7 to me it's simpler to -- for me to withdraw that motion 8 and rescind the original court order and make a motion 9 for a new court order that incorporates the changes. 10 JUDGE KELLY: So we want to -- we want to 11 rescind. 12 MRS. STEBBINS: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I'll -- I'll 14 withdraw my motion. 15 MRS. STEBBINS: Okay. As long as you -- 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Are you going to 17 restate it? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 19 MRS. STEBBINS: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I'll withdraw my 21 second. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I'll make a 23 motion that we rescind Court Order 38265A, as approved 24 last week. 25 JUDGE KELLY: That was signed by me on 100 1 August the 24th and filed with the County Clerk's office 2 on August the 25th, as the seal reflects. Okay. And 3 we're rescinding it? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. I agree. We need to 6 rescind this order. 7 MRS. GRINSTEAD: Okay. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 9 MRS. GRINSTEAD: But that's B. 10 MRS. STEBBINS: Right. 11 MRS. GRINSTEAD: It was a clerical error, 12 but that really is B. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it reads -- but it 14 reads A on here. And that's in the court documents 15 right now. 16 MRS. GRINSTEAD: But A is what you talk 17 about the policy. B is -- we'll just say Rusty's order. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I don't think we have 19 an A order entered. I think the A order was what was in 20 our packets today. 21 MRS. DOWDY: The A order is the guidelines 22 that -- with all the questions, I think. That's the A, 23 the guidelines. Adopt hazardous pay policy according to 24 the CRF grant. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: The County Attorney 101 1 suggested we strike through it and make the correction 2 before we proceed then we'll know which one we're 3 talking about. That makes sense to me. Because I don't 4 think you know which one you're talking about. If I'm 5 watching the boss over here and she's giving the head 6 nod and all this -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the question is -- 8 the problem is, though, whether it's right or wrong, the 9 one the Judge signed says A. It's a mistake. We know 10 that. So we're going to rescind it and redo it as a new 11 one. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. But we're 13 talking about making it -- giving it the right name 14 before we proceed is what I -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I want to rescind it -- 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- think is the smart 17 thing to do. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I want to rescind it and 19 then I want to -- I'll -- if that passes, I'm going to 20 immediately make another motion. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I knew that was coming. 23 But I want to make sure we're on the right one. 24 MRS. STEBBINS: Is that the motion? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I made a motion earlier. 102 1 I'm going to -- 2 MRS. DOWDY: Rescind 38265A. Was there a 3 second part to that? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. It's just to 5 rescind it for right now. It's going to be cleaner, I 6 think, to do -- rescind it and then do a new one. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. So I'm looking at the 8 County Attorney. This is the order. There is a 9 different A in the packet today that has not been 10 approved as an order yet. Right? 11 MRS. DOWDY: Well, 38265A on the order next 12 to the gavel refers to the guidelines that were adopted 13 last week. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Right. 15 MRS. DOWDY: That order there that you were 16 authorized to sign was under B. So there's a clerical 17 error in the one that you were authorized to sign. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I -- I understand that. 19 But -- but so that the record reflects what we're doing, 20 the usual and customary practice is for the proposed or 21 draft order be included in the packet the week after the 22 action was taken by the Court. Which is usual and 23 customary. And what we have in our packet today is an 24 A and a B that we've referred to. Okay. It's in the 25 packet today. I just copied those because there were a 103 1 bunch of mistakes. 2 This one that we're getting ready to rescind 3 was an order that was prepared and brought to us by the 4 Sheriff and I was asked to sign it before it was ever 5 approved by the Court. Okay. It was approved in Court 6 but we didn't have the usual and customary review 7 process where she brings the orders in, you review them, 8 you tell us if they're in order, we adopt them per 9 recommendations. 10 And so the order that we're getting ready to 11 rescind is very unusual. It was out of the usual 12 intent. And for good cause we need to rescind it. 13 Correct? It was presented to me unilaterally for 14 signature. 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I thought it was simply 16 wording. Trying to get rid of some wording -- 17 JUDGE KELLY: Well, that's what we're going 18 to do now. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- to protect ourselves 20 from the auditors. 21 MRS. STEBBINS: Jonathan was -- 22 JUDGE KELLY: But this is highly irregular. 23 MRS. DOWDY: It's -- there was a prepared 24 order to present to Commissioners' Court to authorize 25 you to sign. 104 1 MRS. STEBBINS: Which happens a lot and with 2 resolutions and it -- it happens. It does. It's not 3 highly irregular. 4 MRS. DOWDY: I think the typed in order 5 number at the top -- I gave the wrong Court Order number 6 and -- 7 JUDGE KELLY: That's just clerical error; 8 that's not -- 9 MRS. DOWDY: That's clerical. So really, I 10 mean, I think -- County Attorney, what did you say about 11 marking out something? 12 MRS. STEBBINS: It could be a motion to 13 modify that order so that it is identified with the 14 correct B and has the offensive language of fund 15 availability taken out. And I think that that would be 16 clean. However -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think -- 18 MRS. STEBBINS: -- do what you want. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The reason -- I don't 20 want to speak for the Judge but I'm sure he'll correct 21 me if I'm not. The reason is that the preference is to 22 not have a crossed out availability of funds for 23 auditors. It'll be back to -- if they go back to our 24 Court order -- 25 JUDGE KELLY: Cleaned up. 105 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- but it would be 2 cleaned up if there was a clean order as to what we're 3 doing. That was why I made a motion to rescind. 4 JUDGE KELLY: And frankly, just to further 5 discussion on this motion, I would prefer that whatever 6 order we eventually end up -- this Court ends up 7 adopting be done through the regular channels with the 8 County Clerk preparing the order. Subject to -- at 9 whatever input she needs. To not have something that 10 was completely freestanding and separate like this one 11 was. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I don't -- 13 MRS. STEBBINS: So you -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- I don't agree with 15 that. - 16 MRS. STEBBINS: Through your approval of the 17 orders modify like all that happens with -- when y'all 18 approve the order, modify that order to include the 19 language of the Sheriff's order and give it the number 20 that it's been assigned already with a B, which often 21 happens with orders and resolutions, and the language is 22 read into it, the record, and it's the exact language is 23 included. It -- it's pretty simple, I think. 24 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I want a motion to 25 rescind this. 106 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what my motion 2 was. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Can I -- can I suggest 4 that, Jonathan, since there is an identical order in 5 item 1.11, if you go ahead and rescind this one, that 6 way the order's done. It's gone. And you make a 7 motion, you call item 1.11 and pass that order with the 8 clarification that the available fund language is taken 9 out of it. Then you've got a whole order and as far as 10 being irregular, I don't agree with that because we do 11 bring contracts, orders, all kinds of different 12 things -- 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- to the County 15 Attorney first for her approval, and this Court has 16 asked me many a time, has the County Attorney approved 17 this, and y'all sign it. Okay. And that's what you -- 18 and that's the same exact thing that was done here. All 19 right. The County Attorney had looked at it, had 20 approved it to be passed. 21 Now, because of the consultant's, you know, 22 opposition to that wording, we want to just change that 23 wording. And I have no problem with that. I think that 24 may be wise. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So if we eliminate -- 107 1 can we eliminate A and B and just have one? 2 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah, that's kind of 3 what I thought. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I mean consolidate 5 them. I don't mean eliminate them. 6 JUDGE KELLY: These -- these have not even 7 been approved yet. Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. So we can't do 9 that yet. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Right. We have -- if we adopt 11 them -- 12 MRS. STEBBINS: They're the orders of the 13 Court. They have -- they were approved by y'all last 14 week. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, by the vote. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's what I thought. 17 MRS. STEBBINS: And so they -- this, 18 regardless of whether y'all go back at the end and 19 approve it or not, I mean for years this Court has not 20 gone through and reviewed all of the orders and approved 21 them at the end. That's a recent development in this 22 Court's history. So the orders exist as they are. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And what you've done in 24 recent -- like Jonathan brings those, you know, every 25 court is this is the way it reads, I think it really 108 1 ought to read this way and you change the wording. The 2 order's already approved, you just change -- you know, 3 adjust the wording. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And that's all this 5 should be -- 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And that's all you're 7 doing here. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I agree with that. 9 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I just want to vote on 10 something. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the motion right 12 now is for us to rescind it. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: You got a motion and a 14 second. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Those in favor raise your 16 hand. Unanimous, four zero. 17 Now I'm going to deliver that order to the 18 County Clerk. It's no longer in my possession. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I still don't know 20 why I can't make a new motion right now. 21 MRS. STEBBINS: You can. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: You can. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I want to make a motion 24 that we approve the order that was in the agenda package 25 today, which is -- did we correct that? 109 1 JUDGE KELLY: Under 1.11. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under 1.11. However, I 3 want to modify it by the second to the last paragraph 4 deleting the words, "or availability of funds." 5 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Motion's been made by 8 Commissioner Letz, seconded by Commissioner Harris to 9 approve the order attached to agenda item 1.11 with the 10 deletion of the phrase, "or availability of funds," 11 correct? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 13 MRS. DOWDY: And authorize the Judge to sign 14 same? 15 JUDGE KELLY: No, I'm not going to sign it. 16 Those in favor raise your hand. Those opposed. Three 17 to one. 18 (Judge Kelly opposed.) 19 JUDGE KELLY: Motion carries. But for the 20 record, I'm not going to sign that order. You get to 21 sign it. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 JUDGE KELLY: Because I think this is 24 creating a huge liability for Kerr County. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 110 1 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Let's go to Item 1.2 on 2 the agenda. Consider, discuss and accept Certification 3 -- you know, let's go to 9:30. We got a timed one. I'm 4 sorry, Nadene. 5 MS. ALFORD: That's all right. 6 JUDGE KELLY: 1.10 consider, discuss and 7 take appropriate action on request for logistical needs 8 for the National/Global Day of Prayer and Repentance 9 event scheduled for September 26, 2020, on the 10 courthouse grounds. 11 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Thank you for your 12 patience. 13 MS. RHOADES: Good morning. Yes, sir. Last 14 time we were here we had just asked for that day to be 15 set aside for us. And this time what we would like to 16 ask for is permission to set up banners starting on the 17 13th of September, through the 26th. 18 And then we also had some logistic items 19 that we had asked and we have already coordinated with 20 Shane for a podium, electricity. And we also asked that 21 the courthouse remains open and the restroom facilities. 22 And I understand that a Deputy Sheriff must be present 23 during that time. 24 And then also, we'd like permission just to 25 bring a trailer just to set up on the -- well, the road 111 1 so we can use that as a stage. 2 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: The deal about the 3 restrooms isn't necessarily -- that's not what we 4 normally do, if I'm not mistaken, as far as leaving the 5 courthouse open and what have you. I think the rest of 6 it sounds good but I don't know about the restrooms. 7 MS. RHOADES: Well, I understand that that 8 may not be what you usually do, but I also understand 9 that we could ask for it, you know. 10 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: You can always ask. 11 MS. RHOADES: Yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well I'll make a 13 motion to approve barring the part about the restrooms. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 15 JUDGE KELLY: So a motion's been made to 16 approve the request with the exception of keeping the 17 courthouse open for the restrooms? 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yes. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Motion was made by 20 Commissioner Harris, seconded by Commissioner Letz. 21 Discussion? Questions? 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, if we had -- if 23 the courthouse was open, we'd have to have a Deputy here 24 and pay him overtime and that kind of stuff. And so 25 that's -- plus the people coming in and out of the 112 1 building have to be watched and so on. So it's really 2 not a good idea. 3 MS. RHOADES: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I mean, I don't expect 5 anybody at the National Day of Prayer or during the 6 Global Day of Repentance to be a problem, but you never 7 know. If the doors are open, anybody can come in. So I 8 don't think that -- 9 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: That's the deal. It's 10 not this group or -- 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. It's nothing 12 about your group. 13 MS. RHOADES: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But the logistics of 15 it. 16 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Those in favor raise 17 your hand. Unanimous, four zero. 18 MS. RHOADES: All right. Thank you. 19 COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, what's your 20 name? 21 MS. RHOADES: Kim Rhoades. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Kim Rhoades. R-O-A-D-E-S. 23 MS. RHOADES: R-H-O-A-D-E-S. Thank you. 24 Y'all have a good day. 25 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Nadene. 1.2 consider, 113 1 discuss and accept "Certification of Unopposed 2 Candidates," and issue an order the unopposed candidates 3 elected. 4 MS. ALFORD: Yes, sir. This is the local 5 candidates that will be on the November ballot that are 6 unopposed. The Constable Precinct 1 Tommy Rodriguez, 7 Constable Precinct 2 Kyle Schneider, Constable Precinct 8 3 Paul Gonzales, Constable Precinct 4 Brad Ryder, County 9 Attorney Heather Steadman(sic) -- 10 MRS. STEBBINS: Stebbins. 11 MS. ALFORD: Stebbins. Thank you. County 12 Clerk's unexpired term Jackie Dowdy, Tax Assessor 13 Collector Bob Reeves, and Commissioner Precinct 3 14 Jonathan Letz. 15 JUDGE KELLY: The only one I'm confused 16 about Nadene is Precinct 3 Constable. I thought there 17 was another candidate. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. Independent. 19 MS. ALFORD: No. For the Independent, they 20 do not file -- bring any filing into your office. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. All right. Well, I 22 think he did eventually, didn't he? 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I thought he did. 24 JUDGE KELLY: He came -- 25 MS. ALFORD: He brought his intent in back 114 1 in December, but he never brought in a petition in 2 August. 3 JUDGE KELLY: Because I remember him coming 4 in and -- and -- 5 MS. ALFORD: Yes, sir. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Verified. 7 MS. ALFORD: And then, these candidates will 8 be listed at the end of the ballot under the heading of 9 unopposed candidates duly elected. 10 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I move for approval. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 12 JUDGE KELLY: Motion's been made by 13 Commissioner Harris, seconded by Commissioner Letz to 14 approve the Unopposed Candidates as presented as being 15 duly elected. Any other discussion? Those in favor 16 raise your hand. Unanimous, four zero. 17 MS. ALFORD: Thank you. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 19 1.3, Jennifer Doss, consider, discuss and 20 take appropriate action for updates to the Public 21 Sector's Compensation Study procedural adjustments due 22 to COVID-19. 23 MS. DOSS: Thank you, Judge. We have 24 Sam Hines waiting to explain the changes, if you would 25 like. 115 1 JUDGE KELLY: Do I need to call him? 2 MS. DOSS: Yes, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think while we're 4 doing that, Judge, the -- I handed out a one-page 5 document. The underlying portions of that are items 6 that I recommend we include. I visited with the 7 Sheriff's office, the Tax Assessor, and the County Clerk 8 if they thought that was a format that they could live 9 with with employees. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Mr. Hines? 11 MR. HINES: Yes, it is. 12 JUDGE KELLY: This is Rob Kelly, the County 13 Judge here in Kerr County. We have you on the 14 speakerphone. 15 MR. HINES: Okay. 16 JUDGE KELLY: And I'm going to put you up 17 here so everybody can hear you. 18 MR. HINES: Good morning. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Good morning. Okay. This is 20 Sam Hines. Is that correct? 21 MS. DOSS: Yes, sir. 22 MR. HINES: Correct. 23 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sam, I was just going 25 through the options that you laid out in the e-mail to 116 1 Jennifer, and then I think it was sent back to you from 2 Jennifer with a couple of modifications. 3 MR. HINES: Yes, I've seen that e-mail come 4 through on Friday and I had responded this morning. 5 Those changes look a little bit doable. Yeah. I'm in 6 agreement with the changes that you guys kind of changes 7 we're discussing. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I mean, with that 9 I think, you know, I didn't talk to all the department's 10 but I talked to a cross-section and they thought it was 11 workable. So I think we can proceed with the salary 12 study. 13 MR. HINES: Okay. Yeah, really from my end 14 I think we can get this started within the time frame 15 that I'm mentioning now, which is about three weeks from 16 now. I'm going to require a little bit of information 17 from Jennifer and the Human Resources Department just, 18 again, filling out some of the databases that you think, 19 you know, would be easily able to be done within that 20 time frame. 21 I didn't go see what we have on the 21st 22 through the 23rd. It will be important just to kind of 23 clue in the Department Heads about the two components of 24 the study and then just get some of their feedback so 25 that we make sure that if employees have any questions, 117 1 that they have kind of a representative or somebody to 2 go to, kind of like what's going on with what the plan 3 is. And then following up with those with either Zoom 4 calls or do an individual call each Department Head and 5 structure that. And that on the 24th, that would have 6 like an employee briefing video that we would have you 7 load to your company YouTube channel and then on to the 8 online PAQ that would -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The one thing that I 10 found out or came to light when I was visiting with some 11 of the other departments, is that the biggest problem we 12 have on the Zoom calls is that we don't have cameras on 13 the majority of the County computers. So we're going to 14 have to -- there will be some logistics to figure out 15 through the IT. Right behind me -- 16 MR. HINES: We can do an individual call to 17 each Department Head. How many departments do you guys 18 have? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably 25 or so. And 20 some of them -- like I visited with the Sheriff on this. 21 I mean, he would probably want -- or says he's probably 22 going to want some of his supervisors in on this as well 23 because they're going to have to participate. 24 So like the Sheriff's Department would 25 probably be one call. Road & Bridge may do it the same 118 1 way. I haven't talked to Kelly. But there will be some 2 coordination due to the limited number of camera laptops 3 that we have in the County. We can use, I know, phones 4 but they're not as good to use on these calls. 5 The other thing, Sam, that we talked about 6 in Court last week was that a few other things that I'm 7 not sure that they're specifically outlined in the scope 8 of work, but we definitely, I think, want you to look at 9 them, is things of the nature like our longevity policy, 10 our retirement contribution rate, overall our grade and 11 step -- what do you call it, schedule. It seems very 12 complicated to us. And really, we're looking at is 13 there easy ways to kind of modify these or are we in 14 line with what other counties are doing. So we're not 15 looking at a whole lot of work, we're just trying to -- 16 kind of an overview and give us some feedback as to what 17 other counties do. Especially if they have a longevity 18 policy and retirement rate. 19 MRS. DOSS: And personal leave as well. 20 MR. HINES: Kind of like a little bit of a 21 survey that you would see -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 MR. HINES: -- what other people may offer 24 like additional incentives. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And then like 119 1 our vacation personal leave policy, kind of if we're in 2 line with what most other governmental entities are 3 doing or not. 4 MR. HINES: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So they're kind of 6 general things just to see if we're in -- kind of in 7 line with other agencies. 8 MR. HINES: Okay. That might -- sound like 9 benefit, we can do. And I can send that over to 10 Jennifer and see. But they typically those things that 11 we just discussed. Retirement, longevity pay, vacation, 12 sick leave, holidays. If we offer any certification 13 days for like people licensing or anything like that. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, that's exactly it. 15 So it's just a general review of our benefits policies. 16 MR. HINES: Okay. Kind of the only other 17 thing that was on my radar was at some point discussing 18 the comparatives for the survey. I don't know if we 19 need to get discussing that like right now. I think we 20 can do it post job classification study. 21 Really, we won't want to start the survey 22 until after October 1 because that's when a lot of pay 23 plan changes will go into effect. But if we have up 24 until then, you know, to begin thinking about who you 25 guys want to included so that compares. 120 1 I'm not sure if you guys have a historical 2 list that you guys have used in the past. Specifically 3 what we propose is more of like a geographic base model 4 and we would get other agencies that -- unless you guys 5 have historical or review employees from. 6 So before we begin to listing some of that 7 information kind of compare agencies. But we would like 8 to have a conversation with the relevant officials or 9 the relevant stakeholders to make sure that we have a 10 blessing on that comparative list before we go -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can come up with a 12 list of what we've used historically. And if 13 historically we've looked at the neighboring counties, 14 or at least three of the neighboring counties, primarily 15 is Kendall, Gillespie, and Bandera. And then we've also 16 looked at counties with comparable size, such as Navarro 17 is one that we frequently use, and some others. 18 MR. HINES: Okay. So kind of like a hybrid 19 model based on geography and then from the -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. But we can come up 21 with a list and -- that we've used in the past and any 22 suggestions you have as well. 23 MR. HINES: Okay. Yeah, that sounds great. 24 For me, that's really kind of the important green light 25 that we need before we begin this salary survey, but I 121 1 think right now the focus would just be on getting the 2 classification base kind of going and then maybe we can 3 revisit some steps and come to a conclusion to discuss 4 the survey comparators. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. And I don't think 6 we need any action today, do we? We're just -- because 7 we already have a contract and we're just -- 8 MR. HINES: Yeah. I think we're just kind 9 of talking through some of the specifics. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, we're modifying 11 some of the process but I don't know that that makes a 12 difference. 13 MRS. DOSS: But based on Sam's summary 14 e-mail, we're going to go with option Number 1, the 15 online approach, and get -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 17 MRS. DOSS: -- it started sooner. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. Online approach as 19 modified. 20 MRS. DOSS: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Now, I kind of have a 22 problem with that. You know, when they submitted bids 23 or whatever for this whole process, they figure in 24 travel and accommodations, staying here awhile, and so 25 that hasn't changed, but the fees remain the same, 122 1 because I came in prepared to vote for option two where 2 they come and do it in person. And, you know, we're 3 getting lesser service for the same price, in my 4 opinion. 5 MR. HINES: You know, I really wouldn't 6 characterize it as a lesser service. Somebody spent a 7 lot of years developing the Zoom so that we could do it 8 online. We could maybe shave like a thousand dollars 9 off for the travel cost and I'm really -- and the flight 10 and then a rental car since I'll be staying with family 11 in the area. So really the travel wasn't too much of 12 the budget but we could discuss that. And save you 13 $2,000.00 just for the flight. 14 MRS. DOSS: And the additional benefit 15 things that they're going to look at weren't in the 16 original contract either so it'll offset -- 17 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: But -- so Sam, are you 18 saying we can trim $5,000? 19 MR. HINES: No, I didn't say 5000, but -- 20 (Laughter.) 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I heard him go up to 22 two. 23 MR. HINES: The surveys and the -- if that 24 works. But I don't know if we need to talk about that, 25 we'll be open to it. 123 1 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, good. You know, 2 I appreciate that. But I think it does need to be 3 discussed. 4 MR. HINES: Sure. Yeah. The quality of the 5 product -- 6 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, I may -- I 7 probably didn't pick my words really well for that. But 8 we expect quality product either way. But, you know 9 what I'm saying as far as that was figured in way back 10 when we started figuring getting y'all and you got it 11 down here. And y'all figured it in, what it's going to 12 cost you for travel and accommodations. 13 MR. HINES: Yeah. We did that and I -- but 14 I don't remember what the figure was, it might have been 15 50,000 still. So we don't necessarily bill that out 16 individually. But we did factor in, you know, a little 17 bit of travel. But typically that's not the largest 18 expense, you know, in the budget. But if we needed to, 19 I think we could take off a thousand dollars for the 20 airfare and rental car. We'd be open to that. 21 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: How many people would 22 y'all normally send down here? 23 MR. HINES: Typically it would have just 24 been me. The only time when I would have done maybe two 25 would be the employee briefing through -- get out in 124 1 front of your employees. We do have to substitute that 2 with the YouTube video and then really that would have 3 been the only interaction that -- you know with 4 employees and the introduction of the study. Maybe meet 5 with your Department Heads one on one. 6 So the proponent of travel, you know, that 7 will continue to be included in the study would be if we 8 need to do any final presentation to kind of -- at a 9 Commissioners' Court, like at the end of a study. I 10 think right now that's kind of still on the table. We 11 can kind of see what happens as the year progresses with 12 travel if -- if that's part of our policy or if we need 13 to do that over a telephone call. But really be the 14 kickoff of the study and then kind of like the record at 15 the end. 16 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we'll look at the 18 scope of work. I'll get with Jennifer and look at the 19 scope of work and make a few adjustments to the scope 20 and we'll bring it back to the Court next Monday. But I 21 think it will be basically along the lines of option 22 one. 23 MR. HINES: Okay. Sounds good. 24 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. So no action? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No action today. 125 1 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Sam, thank you very 2 much. 3 MRS. DOSS: Thank you, Sam. 4 MR. HINES: Yeah. Good talking to y'all. 5 I'll be in touch. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Item 1.4 consider, 7 discuss and take appropriate action to update the Kerr 8 County Policy regarding employee's payroll policy and 9 procedure. 10 MS. DOSS: Yes, sir. We would like 11 proposing to add some verbiage regarding employees' 12 responsibility for checking their paychecks to see that 13 they're accurate. And if they find any errors, they 14 must bring it to the attention of the Human Resources 15 department immediately and no later than before the next 16 regularly scheduled payday. 17 If the employee isn't satisfied with Human 18 Resources department's response, they should bring their 19 concerns to County Attorney's Office. We would like to 20 add that under the compensation 2A-3 section of the 21 current policy book. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I'll move for approval. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. I think. 24 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. We got a motion by 25 Commissioner Belew, seconded by Commissioner Letz, he 126 1 thinks. Let's have a discussion and see where we are on 2 this motion and second. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The question I have 4 comes back to a conversation I had with the County 5 Attorney primarily. That two things, one -- whether we 6 make a mistake or not, we're responsible for paying our 7 employees properly. And two, what do we do if an 8 employee doesn't -- we have it in policy now, or if 9 we've adopted a policy, what if they don't sign it? I 10 mean, so it's kind of a -- 11 MRS. STEBBINS: So you may want to call 1.5 12 also with this. Because that is 1.5, that verification. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Well, yeah, 1.5 14 is the verification referred to under the new policy. 15 But, you know, my questions are, we need to do it but 16 there's no consequence for not doing it. And we're 17 still obligated to pay them correctly whether they sign 18 it or not. 19 So I'm very much in favor of trying to get 20 this all behind us and employees need to be a little bit 21 more responsible to make sure they're being paid 22 correctly, but it comes down to it's somewhat 23 meaningless. If we pay someone wrong and they decide to 24 sue us, we have no -- we may have a little bit better 25 defense but we still don't have a defense necessarily. 127 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Will the employee -- 2 will the employee get an explanation of what this is for 3 and why? They pretty much get paid or -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, that's -- maybe 5 y'all want to look at the next one, 1.5. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. We still have a motion 7 on the floor, I think. 8 Let's go ahead and call 1.5 along with 1.4. 9 And 1.5 is consider, discuss and take appropriate action 10 to implement the Kerr County employee payroll 11 verification form to be signed annually at the beginning 12 of each new fiscal year. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So my question was, in 14 other words, if I'm asked to sign this, am I -- is it 15 explained to me as an individual, or I just read over it 16 and then sign it? 17 MRS. DOSS: It's presented to new employees 18 along with the handbook. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: In their packet, yeah. 20 MRS. DOSS: Right. And I will e-mail it to 21 the current employees as well. 22 MRS. STEBBINS: Part of the conversation 23 that we had, if you'll remember, Commissioner, a couple 24 weeks ago between County Judge, you, Jennifer and me, 25 was that after this is passed, if it passes, then we 128 1 have some conversations with the Elected Officials and 2 Directors so that they can fully understand what comes 3 next and -- and then, so they -- they're not just going 4 to be handed a piece of paper and say sign it. We'll be 5 talking to their supervisors so that their supervisors 6 can have some fuller conversations. 7 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, I agree with 8 Commissioner Letz that this probably doesn't hold a lot 9 of teeth, but I think it does bring awareness that maybe 10 people will jump on board and double-check their -- all 11 their information. Don't you agree, Kelly? 12 MS. HOFFER: Uh-huh. 13 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I mean, that's the 14 deal. You know, to where it doesn't get logged wrong 15 for a couple years or whatever. 16 MRS. DOSS: Right. That's the main thing. 17 In a timely fashion. 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: There you go. 19 MRS. DOSS: Right. 20 MRS. STEBBINS: And so with that, we're 21 going to need some help from the supervisors just to 22 make sure they -- 23 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Bingo. 24 MRS. STEBBINS: -- talk to their employees, 25 their employees know what they're step and grade should 129 1 be, they know how many years of service they've got, and 2 they're confirming with us, y'all, HR, it's in their 3 files that -- that they've looked at it, they've gotten 4 to chew on it a little bit and they think it's right. 5 Or wrong. And then we'll solve it. 6 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Hopefully less will 7 fall through the cracks. 8 MRS. STEBBINS: Right. 9 MRS. DOSS: And one of the -- one of the 10 issues when it came out was that the past COLA's that we 11 received, they're not documented in the personnel file. 12 It's just passed through to budget and there's no 13 tracking it. 14 So I started last year and gave everybody a 15 letter saying, you know, this is what your entry's 16 going to be, what's your grade and step. Just so there 17 would be documentation in the personnel file of what the 18 employee made each year. 19 But we would like to expand on that, we 20 thought. We'd like to expand on that so -- and there's 21 several versions of this letter going around that -- 22 Jonathan, you put some edits and I -- I like your edits 23 but -- but Heather had some concerns so -- 24 MRS. STEBBINS: And part of the goal and -- 25 and this was happening in the conversation that we had, 130 1 but so that y'all are informed, what Jennifer's office 2 does is they send us -- supervisor, director, elected 3 official, here are your salary -- here's the salary 4 schedule for your department, please confirm that it's 5 right. 6 And so over the past -- this will be the 7 second time I have gotten my employees to have each -- I 8 sent it to each of them, their portion of it, and said 9 confirm that this is right, respond in an e-mail so that 10 I can put that in your HR file so that they're looking 11 at it, they're paying attention to it, and they have 12 confirmed to me that it's correct and it's not just me 13 going, oh, I think that's right, and have to look back 14 through everybody's personnel file to confirm it. 15 They're going to do it, too. So it puts it on them to 16 know -- to know what they should -- where they should be 17 with the County. 18 And so this will be an opportunity for all 19 directors and supervisors to do that with their 20 employees each budget season, saying yes, this is where 21 I am step and grade, these are my years of service. But 22 that sort of appointment. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sheriff? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, and I agree 25 totally with her. And I think we know why. And we've 131 1 seen some of those things happen. The only thing I'm 2 curious about, and kind of concerned about on these two 3 forms, the new ones, the verification form and that, we 4 do have employees that their salary changed during the 5 year. Okay. And that form doesn't really address that. 6 Now, we do have currently in use a form 7 that's labeled Kerr County Payroll Change Form that is 8 used for all our employees, okay, and anytime there is a 9 payroll change it is put in there, the new salary, the 10 per hour, biweekly, annual, position, grade, step, all 11 that is in there. The employee already signs it and so 12 does the Department Head or Elected Official. Okay. 13 And then I know in our office. We keep a 14 copy in the personnel file we have out there and we send 15 a copy over. So I think this addresses a lot of things. 16 Now maybe it needs to be done at the beginning of each 17 budget year also, if there's something like a COLA or if 18 there's a change in -- in pay right then so that it's 19 done at that same time and not just during the year. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That may be more 22 appropriate than at anytime there's any kind of salary 23 change a new one of these must be filled out, regardless 24 of what reason it is. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 132 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So do we need the two 2 forms? 3 MRS. DOSS: If this letter and all this is 4 good to go out at the beginning of each fiscal year, I 5 will submit these to the Department Heads and they can 6 distribute them to their employees to sign. And then 7 during the year, like Rusty said, any additional -- if 8 we give promotions and they receive, we get the payroll 9 change form and that goes in the personnel file as well. 10 So that's also documented. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think -- I mean, 12 going back to 1.4, that was the motion for the policy. 13 And I'm -- I'm good with my second on that. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. So restate your motion. 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: The motion is -- where 16 were we at, we started at 1.4? 17 JUDGE KELLY: 1.4. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: To accept the policy -- 19 payroll policy and procedures as presented by Jennifer 20 Doss, HR. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. And you -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. I'm fine. I'm 23 good with the policy. 24 JUDGE KELLY: So we've got a motion and a 25 second. Any other discussion? Those in favor raise 133 1 your hand. Unanimous, four zero. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. And then on 1.5, 3 I think we may -- Heather just handed me the 4 modification to -- I think we probably ought to look at 5 that and make sure that we get that right. I think that 6 I handed it out a little bit today. I did not -- I 7 failed to e-mail it out to Jody last week. So I think 8 we pass on that and kind of make sure that we have that 9 form correct and bring it back next week. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Now, do we need this 11 one plus the one -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's part of it. I 13 think -- you know, to have that discussion a little bit. 14 Do we need both of them? They're a little bit different 15 but they're similar. You know, I like some of the 16 verbiage that I added to the one that Jennifer recently 17 put together. But anyway, I just don't want to rush and 18 have to come back and change it. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. We -- we don't 20 want to do that again. 21 JUDGE KELLY: I like the idea of whether we 22 use the form that we have and tweak it or we have 23 another form and we tweak that. The concept that the 24 employees are buying into, the legitimacy and propriety 25 of what they're being paid, I think, is important. And 134 1 I appreciate that maybe legal nuances that we may still 2 have some responsibility for, but by and large, I would 3 like -- just me personally, I would like to see people 4 commit to where they are with us so that we can plan for 5 the future and not have those uncertainties hanging over 6 our heads. I think it's good practice for the employees 7 and it's good practice for the County. 8 MRS. DOSS: I agree. 9 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 10 MRS. DOSS: Thank you. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Item 1.6 consider, discuss and 12 take appropriate action to discuss the President's 13 Memorandum on deferring payroll tax obligations in light 14 of the ongoing COVID-19 disaster. Here we go. 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Oh boy. 16 MS. DOSS: Y'all have in front of you 17 President Trump's Memorandum and it's kind of loose, 18 vague. But I've done a lot of research, I've talked -- 19 we had a virtual chat with the TAC Legislative 20 Conference, and what this is, it's a deferral of a 21 Social Security portion of the employee's paycheck, 22 which is at 6.2 percent only. It's not a forgiveness, 23 it's a deferral. And what President Trump requested or 24 basically said that the U.S. Treasury was going to give 25 guidelines. They have yet to do so. 135 1 Now, per the National Law Review, they have 2 several opinions or -- several opinions. There's more 3 questions than we have answers right now. Is this 4 deferral going to be optional? When is it going to be 5 paid back? If the employee leaves before it's paid 6 back, is the County on the hook? There's also the 7 president of ADP, which is one of the nation's largest 8 payroll processing companies. And he said that 9 basically it takes about a six-month lead time to make 10 changes in payroll systems that are this large. And, 11 you know, our system -- the software that we use, 12 they're still waiting for guidance from the IRS and the 13 attorney. So we have no update in our current payroll 14 systems and -- and other counties that I've spoken with 15 same thing. 16 So what the TAC legislative conference -- 17 what they suggest is that the Court vote to do nothing 18 until such time that the U.S. guidelines come out from 19 the U.S. Treasury or the IRS. 20 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Sounds good to me. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Who wants a train wreck? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And part of the reason 23 -- part of the reason for the Court taking action is 24 the -- under the memorandum it says, you know, and it's 25 effective September 1, which is tomorrow, it says 136 1 deferral shall be made available with respect to any 2 employee whose wages -- so I think we need to do 3 something because we can't do that. We just don't know 4 what the -- 5 MS. DOSS: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- how to do it yet. 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: What was the 8 recommendation again? 9 MS. DOSS: Basically that we choose to do 10 nothing until the guidance from the Treasury or IRS. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I make a motion 12 that -- as it relates to the memorandum on deferring 13 payroll tax obligations in light of ongoing COVID-19 14 disaster that was issued August 8th, 2020, until the 15 Treasury Department issues guidelines as to how to 16 implement, we will do nothing. 17 JUDGE KELLY: So we're going to abate any 18 sort of action. We're not going to do anything. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not going to do 20 anything. Now, we may have to go retroactive if the 21 Treasury tells us to. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's what I was going 23 to say about it, yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- and we may have 25 to. But we just have to -- at this point we can't do 137 1 anything because we don't have the guidance from the 2 Treasury Department. 3 JUDGE KELLY: So even though the President 4 has issued an Executive Order to defer to pay these 5 Social Security taxes, we're going to do business as 6 usual until we get guidelines from the Treasury 7 Department? 8 MRS. DOSS: Correct. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And his memorandum said 12 the Treasury Department shall give guidance. But we're 13 in compliance with his memorandum because we can't do it 14 because the Treasury Department hasn't done it. 15 MRS. STEBBINS: Right. And you may hear 16 from them before your next meeting. So it may be 17 something y'all pick up -- 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 19 MRS. DOSS: And also, it may take some time 20 for our software providers to make the updates, so -- 21 JUDGE KELLY: So the motion's been made by 22 Commissioner Letz, and seconded by Commissioner Harris 23 to take no action with regard to the President's 24 Executive Order deferring payroll tax obligations until 25 we receive the mandatory instruction from the Treasury 138 1 Department. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. That's correct. 3 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. All those in favor 4 raise your hand. 5 And we're doing that on advice of TAC, Texas 6 Association of Counties? 7 MRS. DOSS: Yes. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Very good. 9 MRS. DOSS: Thank you. 10 JUDGE KELLY: 1.7 consider, discuss and take 11 appropriate action to approve $140.00 donation from a 12 citizen for the Sheriff's Equipment Fund. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There was a group of 14 people that brings money and ended up bringing barbecue 15 to the Sheriff's Office one day for the employees. And 16 then a little bit later they brought back this amount of 17 money, saying this was what they had left over and they 18 wanted to donate it to the Sheriff's Office. So that's 19 why I'm bringing it. 20 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I move for approval. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Second. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Motion's been made by 23 Commissioner Harris, seconded by Commissioner Belew to 24 approve the donation to the Sheriff's Equipment Fund. 25 Those in favor raise your hand. Unanimous, four zero. 139 1 1.8 consider, discuss and take appropriate 2 action to appoint Callie Gargano as a replacement for 3 Patsy Lackey Fleming as the Kerr County alternate 4 representative to the Alamo Area Council of Governments, 5 Criminal Justice Advisory Committee. 6 This is -- Jody is one alternate that we 7 have. And Patsy has asked to be replaced and resigned, 8 so we thought we'd do something different instead of 9 taking -- we'd bring up somebody like Callie that works 10 in the Auditor's Office and is especially dedicated to 11 working on grants and grant administration, send her 12 over there with these more experienced people and 13 hopefully she'll learn a lot and we'll have an in-house 14 resource going forward in a year. 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I move for approval. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Second. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Motion's been made by 18 Commissioner Harris, seconded by Commissioner Belew to 19 approve Callie Gargano as the replacement alternate 20 representative to the Alamo Area Council of Governments 21 Criminal Justice Advisory Committee. All those in favor 22 raise your hand. Unanimous, four zero. 23 1.9 consider, discuss and take appropriate 24 action to approve the contract with the Kerr County Soil 25 and Water Conservation District and allow me to sign 140 1 same. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move for approval. 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Second. 4 JUDGE KELLY: Motion's been made by 5 Commissioner Letz, seconded by Commission Belew to 6 approve the contract with the Kerr County Soil and Water 7 Conservation District. All those in favor raise your 8 hand. Unanimous, four zero. 9 And I think that gets us through that part 10 of the agenda, so we will go to the Approval Agenda. 11 2.1 pay the bills. 12 MS. SHELTON: Invoices for today's 13 consideration include Kerr County, $648,685.65. The 14 Airport, $16,733.89. Adult Probation, $1,591.40. 15 District Clerk Fees, $361.06. And the 198th DA 16 Forfeiture Fund, $42.80. 17 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I move for approval. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Motion's been made by 20 Commissioner Harris, seconded by Commissioner Letz to 21 approve the bills as presented. All those in favor 22 raise your hand. Unanimous, four zero. 23 Budget amendments. 24 MR. ROBLES: Yes. We have three today. One 25 for Indigent Services, Juvenile Probation, and then the 141 1 hazard pay CARES Act that we'll be allocating. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move for approval. 3 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 4 JUDGE KELLY: Commissioner Letz made the 5 motion, seconded by Commissioner Harris to approve the 6 budget amendments as presented. Those in favor raise 7 your hand. Unanimous, four zero. 8 Auditor reports. 9 MRS. SHELTON: There are not any. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 11 MRS. SHELTON: Nor are there any late bills. 12 JUDGE KELLY: No late bills. Skipped right 13 over that. Apologize. No late bills. Good. 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: You were late on that. 15 JUDGE KELLY: And so now we have Monthly 16 Reports. 17 MRS. DOWDY: We don't have any today. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. And Court Orders? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We do have Court Orders. 20 JUDGE KELLY: We have a stack of them. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, we have a stack of 22 them. I make a motion that we approve the Court Orders 23 for August 24th, 38238 through 38275. I'm looking for 24 the one that we've had so much discussion on. 25 JUDGE KELLY: With the exception of -- 142 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 65? Yeah. With the 2 exception of 38265 -- 3 JUDGE KELLY: A and B. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- A and B. 5 MRS. DOWDY: I had a motion to rescind B 6 and -- 7 MRS. STEBBINS: But with that -- so -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're still here. I 9 mean -- 10 JUDGE KELLY: Court we've adopted a new one. 11 MRS. STEBBINS: But -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But they're the old 13 ones. The old Court Orders -- 14 MRS. DOWDY: We finished on paper the one 15 that has the incorrect Court Order number, so -- but 16 those two -- but the orders in the stack still may be -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can't -- we can't say 18 that it didn't happen; it happened. But they're in 19 the -- but is there an error? 20 JUDGE KELLY: Here's the problem that I see. 21 And we need to figure out how to fix it. We have the 22 order that was signed that has been rescinded. And it 23 was styled 38265A, even though it was intended to be a B 24 and we have a clerical error on that. That has now been 25 rescinded. The -- we have approved another order, which 143 1 was item 11 on the agenda. Okay. That's now the order 2 that replaces the one that was rescinded. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 4 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. So when you look at 5 these orders, the one that says A, in the packet of 6 proposed orders, was intended to be for policy. Okay. 7 And I think the one that was adopted under item 11 on 8 today's agenda was intended to be 38265B. And she has a 9 draft of 38265B there that we do not want to approve. 10 We do not want to adopt that because you've adopted 11 something else in its place. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 13 JUDGE KELLY: So it looks like to me that 14 38265A, in your packet, should be approved as an order. 15 And 38265B in her packet, not the one that we just 16 adopted under agenda item 11, should not be approved. 17 Am I saying that correctly? 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: So he should just make 19 a motion to approve it with the exception of that 20 specific one. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Well, 38265B in the packet has 22 been replaced with a different order that was under item 23 11 on the agenda. So in lieu of 38265B, we're going to 24 substitute in what was done on other order, and we will 25 call it 38265B. So it'll be that order instead of this 144 1 one. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My -- my problem with 3 that is on the 24th, we voted on these two. So they've 4 got to be -- reflect that but I don't know how we go in 5 there and keep somebody -- and the public from going 6 back and going through our Court Orders, finding this 7 and not getting to the next week. How do we -- I'm 8 looking to the County Clerk for that. 9 MRS. DOWDY: From indexing. Proper 10 indexing. So that the public will be able to find it. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well -- 12 JUDGE KELLY: But to clarify -- go ahead. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, he moves that we 14 accept the order. That's what we do every week -- 15 JUDGE KELLY: Right. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- when we have orders. 17 But we don't approve them, we don't accept it. The end. 18 We don't accept this. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 38265B. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Why do we have -- why 21 do we have to -- we don't have to or we wouldn't bring 22 it in here and approve it. 23 MRS. DOWDY: Because by order -- by statute, 24 you have to have -- an order of the Court has to have 25 certain criteria. And that includes having -- the 145 1 reason why I take down the four to zero or five to zero, 2 because that has to be part of the Court Order. That's 3 not in these Orders, so when the Court adopts an 4 order -- 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But we're not going to 6 adopt the order. 7 MRS. DOWDY: -- approve to adopt an order. 8 Well, which is what we did on -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we did. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Is this -- this is the 11 final step of adopting an order. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But with -- the Order is 13 a reflection to me of what we did on the 24th; not what 14 we did today. 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But then why do you ask 16 if the Court accepts the orders and put them in the 17 record? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because it's more from a 19 clerical standpoint if we made corrections. We don't 20 wholesale get rid of an Order. The question has been 21 sometimes the wording is -- 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I know. And -- 23 MRS. STEBBINS: And that's why the change -- 24 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- and we rescinded it 25 before we got to it. 146 1 MRS. STEBBINS: And that's why the change in 2 the procedure was before the Court, I don't know how 3 long ago y'all started doing that and I remember the 4 recommendation being made that let's bring the orders to 5 the Court and we can make sure that what -- the language 6 in the order was what the Court intended to do. And so 7 that hasn't always been how it happened. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And on the 24th 9 this is what we did. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I know. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now we undid it today. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we did it on the 14 24th. 15 MRS. GRINSTEAD: But, it's a -- it's a 16 cleaner paper trail to approve these so it's in 17 Laserfiche, which is what the Clerk uses, and then 18 Jackie, she said, will index. So when you pull up a 19 court order, the court order is there. Jackie now, 20 because of today, will put the very first page as 21 rescinded. She puts that on the order. So that's the 22 way someone would know it's no longer good. And she'll 23 put rescinded on today's date. So that's -- that's the 24 way. It's just a good paper trail to keep it because 25 it's in Laserfiche already. Then she'll put something, 147 1 like, on page one. This order is rescinded today. So 2 that people know it's no longer a valid order. 3 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Okay. Always linked 4 together. 5 JUDGE KELLY: But I'm just looking at the 6 two of you. Are y'all comfortable with us approving the 7 orders as is or not? 8 MRS. DOWDY: I'm not. 9 JUDGE KELLY: Well, but y'all are the ones 10 that are going to -- 11 MRS. DOWDY: I want the Court to tell me 12 what to do. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think my -- my -- 14 I think we need to approve them. My question is, is 15 there a clerical order between the A and the B that we 16 -- that was a mistake? 17 JUDGE KELLY: Not in these. 18 MRS. DOWDY: Right. Not in those. 19 JUDGE KELLY: And going off that week, yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I mean, last 21 week. Is it -- should one of these be B and the other 22 one be A? 23 MRS. DOWDY: This should have been B. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. That should have 25 been B. 148 1 MRS. DOWDY: And that -- but previously on 2 11, today, we rescinded 38265A according to this, not 3 that one. So if you want to approve orders, I would 4 recommend you make an exception for 38265B, just as I 5 kind of explained. Because you didn't correct this one, 6 which -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Should there be a -- 8 maybe can we put a note after the title and say should 9 be order 38265A? I'm just -- I'm confused on the 10 clerical part of that. I think we need to approve it. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: What we should have 12 done is what the County Attorney suggested early on. 13 Have them just strike through it and put another letter 14 on it. It's too late I guess now. Is it too late now? 15 MRS. DOWDY: You'll have to ask the County 16 Attorney. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Because that -- 18 MRS. STEBBINS: I mean -- I tried. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: She tried. Yeah. 20 Sometimes people don't listen when you're the voice 21 crying in the wilderness. 22 MRS. DOWDY: I think you can do that, 23 Commissioner Letz, and make a motion to clarify those 24 two court orders with the -- making the one at the 25 bottom 3265A to match this one as it's numbered. 149 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can we just add that 2 note? Can you add that note up under the heading? 3 MRS. DOWDY: I can add that note if the 4 Court is okay with me adding that note. On my own 5 authority, I guess. 6 JUDGE KELLY: The more we mess with this the 7 more attention we're drawing to it. You know the first 8 rule of the hold game, you find yourself on hold. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think we did -- 10 my motion is that we approve the court orders. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I'll second that. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I'll vote. 13 JUDGE KELLY: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 14 second by Commissioner Belew to approve the court orders 15 as presented. All in favor raise your hand. I'm going 16 to abstain. I'm not weighing in on that. 17 Okay. Information Agenda 3.1 status reports 18 from Department Heads. 19 3.2. Status reports from Elected Officials. 20 3.3. Status reports from Liaison 21 Commissioners. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would like to make a 23 comment. And I don't know if y'all heard, there was a 24 pig sale at the Hill Country Youth Event Center over the 25 weekend. And it was partially online, which was, you 150 1 know. And the top bidding went for, I think, 2 $11,900.00. 3 JUDGE KELLY: For a pig? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For a pig. And they 5 sold 249 units, I believe. Very successful sale. 6 COMMISSIONER MOSER: Wow. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot of -- there was 8 online and then -- and there were 250 people there for 9 the sale. So pigs must be doing pretty good right now 10 because they brought some high dollar. And I presume it 11 was just a gilt or boar. I'm not sure. Probably a 12 boar. But anyway. 13 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah, it was a boar. 14 And he stayed intact for that kind of money. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Anyway, I thought 16 that was interesting and a good event out there. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Well, I think that 18 closes out the agenda except for an Executive Session 19 item. I asked for a status report on a pending dispute, 20 so we will adjourn into Executive Session. It is 11:49 21 and we'll adjourn -- adjourn into Executive Session. 22 And it shouldn't take but just a few minutes. 23 MRS. STEBBINS: I've asked for Charlie and 24 Kelly to stay. Is that okay, Judge? 25 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. 151 1 (Executive Session.) 2 JUDGE KELLY: It's 12:24 and the Court is 3 coming out of Executive Session. I don't believe 4 there's any action to be taken at this time. The Court 5 will stand adjourned. 6 * * * * * * 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 152 1 STATE OF TEXAS * 2 COUNTY OF KERR * 3 I, DEBRA ELLEN GIFFORD, Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, and Official 5 Court Reporter in and for Kerr County, do hereby certify 6 that the above and foregoing pages contain and comprise 7 a true and correct transcription of the proceedings had 8 in the above-entitled Special Commissioners' Court. 9 Dated this the 6th day of September, A.D. 10 2020. 11 12 /s/DEBRA ELLEN GIFFORD Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 No. 953 Expiration Date 04/31/2021 14 * * * * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25