1 1 2 3 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS' COURT 4 Regular Session 5 Monday, September 11, 2023 6 9:00 a.m. 7 Commissioners' Courtroom 8 Kerr County Courthouse 9 Kerrville, Texas 78028 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: ROB KELLY, Kerr County Judge HARLEY BELEW, Commissioner Precinct 1 24 RICH PACES, Commissioner Precinct 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Precinct 3 25 DON HARRIS, Commissioner Precinct 4 2 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 NO. PAGE 3 *** Public Input. 8 4 *** Commissioner's Comments. 9 5 1.1 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 13 action regarding the Kerr County 9-1-1 6 budget. 7 1.2 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 15 action on request from Hill Country Dispute 8 Resolution Center(HCDRC) to renew contract with Kerr County to provide mediation 9 services in Kerr County, and for funding. 10 1.3 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 15 action to approve contract with Beckwith 11 Electronic Engineering Company for fire alarm and monitoring for Juvenile Detention Facility. 12 1.4 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 16 13 action to approve relocating the power lines at River Star park. 14 1.5 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 19 15 action to approve striping the parking lot at Hill Country Youth Event Center. 16 1.6 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 23 17 action to approve Kerr County Investment Policy and Broker/Dealer List for Kerr 18 County's Investment Policy in accordance with the Public Funds Investment Act. 19 1.7 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 24 20 action to authorize the Treasurer to pay out employee comp time balances on September 21 29, 2023, the last pay date of the fiscal year. 22 1.8 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 25 action to approve agreement with Tyler 23 Technologies to update Odyssey software. 24 25 3 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 NO. PAGE 3 1.30 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 27 action for staffing and oversight of future 4 elections. 5 1.9 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 49 action to open and read bids received for 6 property located at 500 Ranchero Road. 7 1.10 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 52 action regarding any changes to the proposed 8 Kerr County budget for FY 2023-2024. 9 1.11 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 76 action to adopt updated Position Schedule 10 and rescind Court Order No. 40178. 11 1.12 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 84 action to adopt FY 2023-2024 Kerr County 12 Budget and take a record vote. 13 1.13 Public hearing for the 2023 proposed tax 103 rate for Kerr County and Lateral Roads. 14 1.14 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 104 15 action to adopt the 2023 tax rate for Kerr County and Lateral Roads. 16 1.15 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 109 17 action to adopt the 2023 tax rate for Lake Ingram Estates Road District. 18 1.16 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 111 19 action for the Court to authorize the County Judge to execute Amendment No. 13 20 to the Professional Services Agreement between Kerr County and Tetra Tech in the 21 amount of $260,256.00 funded under the TWDB Project No. 10366 for additional services 22 related to design, construction, and inspection of the East Kerr/Center Point 23 Wastewater Collection Project. 24 1.17 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 114 action on the proposed 2023-24 Engineering 25 Department fee schedule. 4 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 NO. PAGE 3 1.18 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 115 action to set a day and time for a water 4 availability workshop. 5 1.19 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 118 action for the Court to set a public hearing 6 for 10:00 a.m. on October 23, 2023 for a revision of plat for Kerrville Country 7 Estates Section 2, Lots 35A and 35B, Plat File #22-08493. 8 1.20 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 119 9 action to obligate the remaining America Rescue Plan Act(ARPA) funds that have been 10 allocated to the Veterans Pathway Project. 11 1.21 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 121 action to open, read and award the annual 12 bids for delivered fuel. 13 1.22 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 123 action to nominate up to five(5) persons to 14 the Kerr Central Appraisal District Board of Directors for 2024-2025. 15 1.23 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 124 16 action to ratify and confirm SAVNS (Statewide Automated Victim Notification Service) Grant 17 Award for FY 2024. 18 1.24 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 125 action to ratify and confirm the SCAAP 19 (State Criminal Alien Assistance Program) Award Acceptance for FY 2022. 20 1.25 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 126 21 action to ratify and confirm Texas Department of Agriculture(TDA) Interlocal Cooperation 22 Contract between Kinney County and Kerr County, Amendment No. 1 regarding a 2022 TxCDBG 23 Colonia Fund: Planning and Needs Assessment. 24 25 5 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 NO. PAGE 3 1.26 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 127 action to approve a one-year contract for 4 Inmate Health Care Services between Kerr County and Wellpath LLC. 5 1.27 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 128 6 action to surplus various items from Constable Precinct 2, Veterans Services, 7 and Environmental Health Departments. 8 1.21 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 129 action to open, read and award the annual 9 bids for delivered fuel. 10 2.1 Budget Amendments. 131 11 2.2 Pay Bills. 132 12 2.4 Auditor Reports. 133 13 2.5 Accept Monthly Reports. 133 14 2.6 Court Orders. 134 15 3.3 Status reports from Liaison Commissioners. 134 16 1.28 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 137 action to rescind the Commissioners' Court 17 Order No. 40154, adopted August 14, 2023 and the adoption of the Hart Verity System 18 Version 2.4 Scanner, Controller, Touch Access with DRE and Count Tabulation computer for 19 tabulation of votes for the November Constitutional Amendment Election, and 20 instead adopt the use of the Texas Election Code Chapter 65 hand count ballot tabulation 21 method for the November Constitutional Amendment Election on a trial basis. 22 1.29 Consider, discuss and take appropriate 137 23 action to approve and authorize use of current voting system. 24 25 6 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 NO. PAGE 3 *** Adjournment. 199 4 *** Reporter's Certificate. 200 5 * * * * * * 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 1 JUDGE KELLY: Court will come to order. It 2 is Monday, September the 11th, 2023. It's 9:00 o'clock 3 in the morning and the Kerr County Commissioners' Court 4 is now in session. If you would, please stand for the 5 prayer and the pledge, which will be led by Commissioner 6 Paces. 7 (Prayer and Pledge.) 8 JUDGE KELLY: Please be seated. A few 9 things before we go into public input. First of all, 10 remind everybody to please turn your phones off or to 11 silent so that it doesn't interrupt the proceedings. 12 Next I want to talk a little bit about the unusual 13 agenda that we have today. We have a morning session 14 and an afternoon session. We are quite busy. There's 15 much to be done. And I wanted to explain how we're 16 going to work these sessions. 17 This morning, we hope to proceed just as we 18 normally do with the public input. And if you have 19 something that you want to speak to the Court about 20 that's on the agenda, we ask that you save your remarks 21 until that item is called. 22 This afternoon, however, we're going to go 23 back to follow our Kerr County Commissioners' Court 24 rules, and that is because we know we're going to have 25 heated discussion on Item 1.28 and 1.29. Two separate 8 1 issues. We're going to -- and we know that discussions 2 go longer than 30 minutes and the rule says that if the 3 discussions go longer than 30 minutes, then each side is 4 limited -- the discussion is limited to six persons. 5 Six speakers. Three for one side for the fors, and 6 three for the against. 7 But because there's two issues, one is a 8 hand count and we've already got the paper ballots for 9 the hand count, and then the second issue has to do with 10 continuing the system that we have. The Hart system. 11 And so, what I'm going to do is break that down into two 12 issues, which would allow 30 minutes each. Thirty 13 minutes for each issue. And you can have up to three 14 speakers for each issue, which means that as you agree 15 among yourselves, you can have up to six speakers but 16 they're limited to five minutes each, and that will give 17 us the 30 minutes. And so we can have anywhere from six 18 to 12 speakers this afternoon. 19 And I -- if you don't understand, you can 20 ask me questions when you get ready to come up or as we 21 proceed. So with that, this is the part of the agenda 22 where we ask for the public's input. And I know I've 23 got one person that signed up for public input. If 24 there's any others, please give your participation sheet 25 to Miss Dowdy. 9 1 And so at this point I'll call Sergio 2 Mennella. 3 MR. MENNELLA: Good morning, everybody. 4 Thank you for the opportunity to present our event. My 5 name is Sergio Mennella and I represent K'Star Emergency 6 Children's Shelter. We have an event this weekend, on 7 Saturday, at the Youth Event Center. And it is a Chili 8 Cook-off Car & Bike Show, and I just wanted to present 9 that to everyone's attention. All the funding is for 10 the K'Star Emergency Children Shelter and our free 11 family counseling. 12 I have a poster here, if y'all would like. 13 JUDGE KELLY: If you could leave that with 14 Jody and I'm sure she will find a proper place here at 15 the courthouse. 16 MR. MENNELLA: Awesome. Thank you everybody 17 for your time. 18 JUDGE KELLY: And thank you for what you do. 19 MR. MENNELLA: Thank you, sir. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Any other public input at this 21 time? Okay. There being none, we'll proceed on to 22 Commissioners' Comments and we'll start with 23 Commissioner One. 24 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, obviously this is 25 Patriots Day and we're remembering what happened to this 10 1 country 22 years ago today. I want to encourage you to 2 tell the young people because they don't know. A lot of 3 them don't even get taught this in school anymore. So 4 make sure they understand what today is about. 5 And I want to thank the good Lord for 6 sending us a half inch of rain yesterday. That's all I 7 got. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you got it. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I got it. 10 COMMISSIONER PACES: What a deal. I didn't 11 get any. Well, not my normal. I do not have too much 12 to say that's not on the agenda, other than we remain in 13 the burn ban. And even though some people may have 14 gotten a little bit of rain, this drought persists and 15 with this kind of conditions, it dries out so awful 16 fast. So please respect the burn ban and pray for rain. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Three. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just out at the River 19 Star Park, the Honor Your Hero's event. And I was -- I 20 drove by this morning and it was really -- made you 21 think back to 9-11. I would really encourage everyone 22 to go out there and just drive by it. It's a pretty 23 impressive sight to see the number of American flags 24 flying at the River Star Park today. And it's, I guess, 25 through the week I believe. 11 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And flags are for sale, 2 aren't they? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yes. Yeah, and I'll 5 just add on to that, it's very impressive. The Judge 6 spoke yesterday -- I mean Saturday morning out there. I 7 was -- I attended and it's -- you know, you've got to 8 see it to -- to take it all in and appreciate it. And 9 Jake's here. And spoke with him earlier, they're -- 10 they've got activities through today and they're 11 right -- you know, picking up tomorrow and what have 12 you. So if you purchase a flag, you can pick it up 13 tomorrow and what have you. 14 Big deal for Ingram Volunteer Fire 15 Department this Saturday. They're having their annual 16 Open House and fundraiser. I believe they have a silent 17 auction and, you know, they're having a live auction. 18 Maybe a silent one, I'm not sure, as well as barbecue 19 and what have you. So go out and support these guys. 20 This is one of their main functions. 21 And there's -- one thing they started doing 22 last year is they have these chairs that are -- that are 23 donated by different groups. Different schools from 24 around. You know, I mean of course all our local school 25 districts, Ingram and Kerrville, and reach out to Harper 12 1 and Junction, and they decorate them with their colors 2 and what have you. It's kind of a neat deal. So some 3 of them went really cheap last year, I think so. And 4 they're very nice rockers. Sort of like what you'd see 5 at Cracker Barrel. So anyway -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: When's that? 7 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Saturday. The 16th. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you bid online? 9 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I don't -- I'm not 10 sure of that. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But he's going to -- if 12 you're not going to run again, he needs a rocking chair. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: True. True. 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I'll keep you in mind. 15 JUDGE KELLY: The only thing that I would 16 add is if you haven't been by the Youth Event Center 17 River Star park to see the flags, you need to do it. 18 500 American flags out there. And they sold just 19 slightly short of a hundred. And flags are for sale. 20 And we bought three. One for each of our -- my father 21 and my wife's natural father and stepfather. And it was 22 a very moving experience. There's a closing ceremony 23 today. I think it's at four o'clock, is that right? 24 MR. WILLIAMSON: Yes. 25 JUDGE KELLY: I thought I remembered it 13 1 correctly. Which should be very moving. And it was 2 really a great time to celebrate our heroes, the first 3 responders and people that served in the military. And 4 I got to brag a little bit that in World War II I had my 5 ten uncles and my dad all went to war. And ten of them 6 came home. Which was pretty good odds when you consider 7 it. 8 And I told the story that my dad -- of 9 course, my dad was a Marine. And if you're a child of a 10 Marine you know what I'm talking about. You know what 11 I'm talking about. He told a story that right before 12 they got ready to invade mainland Japan they fell out in 13 formation and the commanding general got up and spoke to 14 them and said past the entire formation, "Look to your 15 left. Now look to your right. The chances are only one 16 of you are coming home." That's what we're looking at 17 had we had to go in and invade mainland Japan. So I'm 18 very thankful for Harry Truman. 19 But with that, today is a very solemn day. 20 And it is only appropriate, even though it is not the 21 same, but we're going to hear from 9-1-1, which is the 22 first item on the agenda. 23 Item 1.1 consider, discuss and take 24 appropriate action regarding the Kerr County 9-1-1 25 budget. Mark Del Toro. 14 1 MR. DEL TORO: Good morning, Judge. Good 2 morning, Commissioners. I'm here in accordance with the 3 State law of Texas Health and Safety Codes, Chapter 732, 4 to request your approval of my Fiscal Year 2024 budget. 5 This budget was approved by my board of managers on 6 August 24th. 7 This budget pretty much mirrors this current 8 year's budget, with the exception of one black eye. We 9 have a $108,000 deficit on the budget due to an unfunded 10 mandate from the 87th Texas Legislative Session; 11 however, they gave us a little handout. We have a grant 12 opportunity to recoup those funds and we will be doing 13 so. And that deficit is for the Next Generation for 14 services, which we are currently implementing right now. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Welcome to our world. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Move for approval. 17 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 19 approve the 9-1-1 budget. Any discussion? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just appreciate the 21 very conservative way you run that office. 22 MR. DEL TORO: Thank you, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Appreciate it. And do 24 an excellent job. Thank you. 25 MR. DEL TORO: I appreciate that. 15 1 JUDGE KELLY: Those in favor say aye. 2 Opposed? Unanimous. Thank you. 3 MR. DEL TORO: Thank you. 4 JUDGE KELLY: Item 1.2 consider, discuss and 5 take appropriate action on a request from Hill Country 6 Dispute Resolution Center to renew a contract with Kerr 7 County to provide mediation services in Kerr County and 8 for funding. 9 And I will move that we approve this. We do 10 this annually. They provide an incredible service over 11 there. They have a sliding scale depending on your 12 ability to pay for the services that are provided to try 13 to resolve lawsuits outside of court. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second. 16 Any discussion? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just again, excellent 18 service. Saves us a lot of money in the long run. 19 JUDGE KELLY: There being no other 20 discussion, those in favor say aye. Opposed? 21 Unanimous. 22 Item 1.3 consider, discuss and take 23 appropriate action to approve contract with Beckwith 24 Electronic Engineering Company for fire alarm and 25 monitoring at the Juvenile Detention Facility. Shane 16 1 Evans. 2 MR. EVANS: Good morning, gentlemen. This 3 is the standard renewal contract with Beckwith to 4 monitor the fire alarm panel at the Juvenile Detention 5 Center. Our County Attorney has looked over the 6 contract and made a few notations on page four. Other 7 than that, there's no changes. And then it's $402.00 8 for the whole year. 9 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I move for approval. 10 COMMISSIONER PACES: Second. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 12 renew the contract with Beckwith Electronic Engineering 13 for the fire alarm at the Juvenile Detention Center. 14 Any discussion? Those in favor say aye. Opposed? 15 Unanimous. 16 Item 1.4 consider, discuss and take 17 appropriate action to approve relocating the power lines 18 at River Star park. Shane Evans. 19 MR. EVANS: Yes, sir. After speaking with 20 Jake, it's not relocating the power line, it's adding an 21 extra one. So we can move the guideline wire that's in 22 the way of where we proposed entrance to the River Star 23 parking at. So if we move the power line pole, it would 24 be thousands more. With adding the new -- what they did 25 is a pole with a guideline wire, attaching it to the old 17 1 one. So when we move the guideline wire it doesn't, you 2 know, tilt, move or anything at all. So basically just 3 adding an extra pole so we can maybe accommodate putting 4 the entrance there for River Star Park. 5 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Shane, you know, I 6 discussed that with you a little bit on, I guess, 7 Friday. And I discussed it with Jake this morning. I'd 8 like to pump the brakes and kinda look at what I talked 9 to both of y'all about. And maybe you two guys look at 10 it together or I'll meet y'all out there, all three of 11 us. There might be an alternative. So why don't we 12 pass on this for now and scratch our heads a little bit 13 on it. And maybe we can do it even cheaper and still 14 accomplish what we want to do. 15 MR. EVANS: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Maybe not. I want 17 y'all's input. But just something we need to look at. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Are you fine with passing it, 19 Shane? 20 MR. EVANS: Sir? 21 JUDGE KELLY: Are you fine with passing 22 this? 23 MR. EVANS: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER PACES: So we're -- this was 25 going to be done in next year's budget or this year's 18 1 budget? 2 JUDGE KELLY: It's this year's budget. 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: It's not a new expense. 4 I mean it -- 5 JUDGE KELLY: It's this year's budget and 6 the next -- two weeks from now is the last -- 7 COMMISSIONER PACES: That's why if we pass, 8 we're kind of running shy of time. 9 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, we are but -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can allocate the 11 funds if we have a -- we know the cost and sign the 12 contract, we can -- 13 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah. 14 MR. EVANS: And the contract is just to add 15 the extra pole, tension pole, is good until November. 16 So we do have time to pass on that. If we want to go 17 ahead and -- we'll do that. 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: All right. Well, I'd 19 like to look at it and maybe one of you guys, two or 20 three, stop in there and we'll all look at it at the 21 same time. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Well I can tell ya, I'm not 23 interested in the labor pains. I just want a good 24 neighbor. 25 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah. 19 1 JUDGE KELLY: So whenever you tell me it's 2 the right one, that's the right way to go, I'm -- I'm 3 for it. 4 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Sure. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Don't leave us the 6 lectern there. Item 1.5 consider, discuss and take 7 appropriate action to approve the striping at the 8 parking lot at the Hill Country Youth Event Center. 9 Shane Evans. 10 MR. EVANS: Yes, sir. I have acquired two 11 bids to re-stripe or -- re-stripe the youth exhibit 12 parking lot. We've been looking at this for several 13 years now. So far it's been, I don't know, around 2021, 14 we've been trying to get this parking lot striped for 15 big events. And I don't know if y'all have been out 16 there, how it looks when there's a ton of vehicles out 17 there. It's kind of helter-skelter a little bit. So 18 the -- 19 JUDGE KELLY: I was out there this past 20 Saturday and it was full. With the gun show and the 21 Field of Honor, you could hardly find a parking place. 22 MR. EVANS: Exactly. So -- 23 JUDGE KELLY: And they were parking all 24 kinds of angles. 25 MR. EVANS: Yes. And what does need to be 20 1 for sure re-striped is the parking stripes up around the 2 front of the building where the handicap parking is. 3 There's no stripes. And it -- you can see the handicap 4 parking placards but you can't see the stripes -- 5 parking stripes or any of that. 6 If we were to approve this or y'all approve 7 this, we would incorporate putting parking stripes in 8 front of the building there, and where the ag -- 9 ag extension office is at. Then on the side there would 10 be also parking stripes for the RVs on that -- I believe 11 the west side, west side of the building. 12 JUDGE KELLY: That's between the Event 13 Center and the River Star. 14 MR. EVANS: River Star. Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, your two bids. 16 Both of them bid the same thing? 17 MR. EVANS: Yes, sir. Pretty close. I 18 mean the bids where within $500.00 of each other. 19 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: But the same striping, 20 I mean -- 21 MR. EVANS: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: -- locations and 23 everything? 24 MR. EVANS: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Okay. 21 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But this is -- this 2 doesn't -- does this take court action? Is it in your 3 budget? 4 MR. EVANS: Well, this is -- here's the 5 problem. I don't have the money in the budget at -- 6 right now. So if we were to do it in this budget year, 7 to get money I'd have to have a -- 8 JUDGE KELLY: Budget amendment? 9 MR. EVANS: -- to get funds to get that 10 done. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What are those two bids? 12 MR. EVANS: One is for $9,752.42 and the 13 second bid is for $10,118.00. 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, with the -- the 15 eclipse in October, I think sooner is better than later. 16 Just like the Judge said, I was out there Saturday, too, 17 and it was a lot of people -- a lot of people park like 18 they all have BMWs sometimes, at an angle and stuff, and 19 there's -- 20 JUDGE KELLY: Well, and the way -- and the 21 way that you have to turn there, it's -- 22 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: It's dangerous. 23 JUDGE KELLY: It was an SUV. You didn't 24 know if you could get through there or not to get to the 25 side lot. 22 1 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Well, do you have 3 a preference? I mean, the low bid is the one you want 4 to go with? 5 MR. EVANS: The one with the lower bid 6 starts -- they said -- when I contacted them, they said 7 they could start the latter part of September, which 8 falls in the budget year this year and we could use 9 contingent funds. 10 JUDGE KELLY: And the other one? 11 MR. EVANS: I didn't get a response back 12 immediately. 13 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. We've got a start date, 14 that's what I want. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Exactly. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Start date and low bid 17 sounds like the one to go with. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 19 we go with the low bid of $9,752.22? 20 MR. EVANS: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the funds are to 22 come from contingency. 23 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm looking at the 25 Auditor. Okay? 23 1 JUDGE KELLY: We got a motion and a second 2 to approve the low bid contractor for the striping at 3 the Hill Country Youth Event Center. Any discussion? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: With funds coming from 5 contingency. 6 JUDGE KELLY: With the funds coming out of 7 contingency of this year's budget. No discussion? 8 Those in favor say aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 9 Item 1.6 consider, discuss and take 10 appropriate action to approve Kerr County Investment 11 Policy and Broker/Dealer List for Kerr County's 12 Investment Policy in accordance with the Public Funds 13 Investment Act. Ms. Soldan. 14 MRS. SOLDAN: Good morning. There are no 15 changes, but annually you do have to approve the 16 investment policy and broker/dealer list. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Move for approval. 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 19 COMMISSIONER PACES: Second. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 21 approve the investment policy as presented. Any 22 discussion? Those in favor say aye. Opposed? 23 Unanimous. 24 Item 1.7 consider, discuss and take 25 appropriate action to authorize the Treasurer to pay out 24 1 the employee comp time balances on September 29, 2023, 2 the last pay date of the fiscal year. Miss Soldan. 3 MRS. SOLDAN: So every year we pay down the 4 comp balances for employees so we're not carrying that 5 liability over, so I just need your approval for that. 6 Last year, you allowed me to reach out to departments to 7 give anybody planning to use their comp time before the 8 end of the fiscal -- or before the end of the calendar 9 year, I mean. So if you would like to do that. 10 JUDGE KELLY: I think that's a good policy. 11 I think we ought to continue it. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, definitely need 13 to. The only question I have is that some years I 14 recall that we allowed certain departments to go a 15 little bit longer. 16 MRS. SOLDAN: That's what I'm -- that's what 17 I'm referring to. So I'll reach out to all the 18 Department's and see if anybody needs to. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 20 MRS. SOLDAN: Otherwise, everybody will be 21 paid with this year's salary versus -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Next years. 23 MRS. SOLDAN: -- next years. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Move for 25 approval. 25 1 COMMISSIONER PACES: Second. 2 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 3 approve the payment of the employee comp time balances 4 as of September 29, 2023. Any discussion? Those in 5 favor say aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 6 MRS. SOLDAN: Thank you. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Item 1.8 consider, discuss and 8 take appropriate action to approve the agreement with 9 Tyler Technologies to update Odyssey software. Bruce 10 Motheral. 11 MR. MOTHERAL: Yes, sir. Good morning, 12 gentlemen. There are two agreements, one for production 13 site and one for test site of our network. And this is 14 for the upgrade part of that system. It has been looked 15 over by the County Attorney. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: This is a contract for 17 renewal, Bruce? A new contract? 18 MR. MOTHERAL: It's a one time. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: A one time? 20 MR. MOTHERAL: One time. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And the cost? 22 MR. MOTHERAL: Huh? 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Cost? 24 MR. MOTHERAL: The cost is $6,330.00 apiece 25 or $12,660.00 total. 26 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Twelve thousand what? 2 JUDGE KELLY: 630. 3 MR. MOTHERAL: 660. 4 JUDGE KELLY: 660. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: What's this going to do 6 for us? 7 MR. MOTHERAL: Take us from an antique to 8 the current -- 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: This is just a -- it's 10 just an upgrade? 11 MR. MOTHERAL: It's just an upgrade. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: It's an upgrade. So 13 it's not a one time. Because upgrades are never a one 14 time. But this is the one time we're voting on it. So 15 I move for approval. 16 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: An upgrade this year. 17 I'll second that. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 19 approve the contract with Tyler Technologies. Any 20 discussion? Those in favor say aye. Opposed? 21 Unanimous. 22 Okay. We're coming up on the timed -- timed 23 items that we can't start until it's actually that time. 24 One of things that we have to do today is I'm going to 25 take us over to Item 1.30. And I'm going to call that 27 1 item because we have to act on this before we act on the 2 budget. So that's why I'm putting this before the 9:30 3 timed items. 4 And so that is -- Item 1.30 is consider, 5 discuss and take appropriate action for staffing and 6 oversight of future elections. And I think we can 7 probably do this in open session. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I think so. 9 JUDGE KELLY: So, Commissioner Letz, you 10 want to weigh in? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. Based on the 12 information that we received at the last meeting about 13 the Elections Department moving from -- or out of the 14 Tax Assessor's Office, I've contacted the County Clerk 15 and asked her what is she going to need to take over 16 elections. 17 And I also asked her a little bit some 18 information about election administrators, another 19 option -- which is another option that we could do down 20 the road. And she kind of read off the counties around 21 that are using that system, one of them is Kendall 22 County, one them is Medina County, and I asked Noel to 23 come up with the cost for those departments. 24 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And Gillespie County 25 just hired one. 28 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. But I just 2 want -- they're a little bit comparable. Anyway, if 3 you go with the election administrator system, it looks 4 like it's between 500 and $600,000 for a new department. 5 That's based on Kendall County and Medina County. 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And a staffing of how 7 many? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just got their total 9 budget what they're doing, kind of, and they're kind of 10 comparable. Medina's population wise is very comparable 11 to us. Comparable to us in a lot of things. And 12 Kendall County is next door, you know. I didn't -- we 13 didn't go into great detail. I just asked what they're 14 spending. 15 Jackie mentioned that in her opinion, she 16 would need a staff of four. A senior person and 17 probably three clerks, something along that line. We 18 were kind of up against the budget on the agenda. I 19 passed that on to the Auditor's Office. And I believe 20 that in our budget that we're going to look at today, 21 there's, how much, $250,000? What did you -- 22 MRS. SHELTON: Roughly. There's three new 23 positions that we added for that. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three new positions were 25 added. That's roughly 250,000 this move is going to 29 1 cost us. 2 COMMISSIONER PACES: Some of the positions 3 will move over from Bob's group? 4 MRS. DOWDY: One. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One position will move 6 over. So -- you know, it's -- I mean all of this is 7 frustrating to me because all of this issue of talking 8 about elections is costing us a lot of money. And 9 that's frustration to me because I hate wasting money 10 and I look at this as wasting money. But we are where 11 we are. 12 Jackie, do you have anything you want to 13 say, because you're the one -- I mean I talked to you. I 14 just reached out to you and -- 15 MRS. DOWDY: Just that right now I'm -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My conversation was that 17 she's willing to do it. 18 MRS. DOWDY: This was not my plan. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you want to go to the 20 podium? 21 MRS. DOWDY: Sure. Might as well. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Well, the people need to hear 23 you. 24 MRS. DOWDY: They can see me right there 25 too. 30 1 JUDGE KELLY: Well, they can see you but 2 they don't hear you. 3 MRS. DOWDY: Okay. So this was not my plan. 4 I was not reached out to by Bob in any way. So due to 5 the time crunch I'm requesting four positions and having 6 only one position move, that means I'm only going to 7 have one experienced person move, and I think that's not 8 good. Just more inexperience with -- I don't know. 9 I just -- I don't think we need an election 10 administrator. I think it should be the way the statute 11 is written, is where the tax collector is the registrar, 12 and the election stays with the clerk. That's my 13 position. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So it's built into the 16 budget that we're about to look at, in addition to 17 $250,000. And that's why it's -- if that's the 18 direction we're going, I guess we need action. Or do we 19 need action? I mean it can be done by the budget. But 20 I think it is cleaner on these type things that if we 21 have a court order specifying, you know, what we're 22 doing. 23 JUDGE KELLY: I think we need to have a 24 court order. Because if these go along with position 25 schedule, we'll have to have these -- adopt these 31 1 positions in order to include it in the budget. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So what we're doing is 3 we're hiring four more people -- 4 JUDGE KELLY: Three. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three. 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Three. Oh, 'cuz we 7 have one already. I see. Three more people at a cost 8 of -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 250,000. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- $250,000. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Above what we -- 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Above what we've 13 already -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- discussed and have 16 in the budget -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- for the upcoming 19 fiscal year. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. And I will say, 21 this is done very quickly -- 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Wait, wait. What's 23 that calculated upon? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, quite 25 honestly -- 32 1 JUDGE KELLY: I mean step, grade and 2 rollups. 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, you're -- you 4 looked at two counties -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Also the -- 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- which we don't 7 necessarily have to follow along with them like -- 8 JUDGE KELLY: Those are administrators. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Those are election 10 administrator offices. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. So -- but their 12 staff is included, isn't it? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I saw other salaries in 15 there. 16 JUDGE KELLY: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I looked at that option 19 as, okay, that's costing us $500,000 so that option to 20 me is off the table. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it came about 23 because -- I don't know, did I call you Thursday or 24 Friday, Jackie? I started thinking about it. Because I 25 was going to spend a lot -- a whole lot of time on 33 1 position schedules last week, that this needed to be 2 decided -- 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- by today and put in 5 the budget because it's a big expenditure. And I just 6 called Jackie up and said -- or talked to Jackie and -- 7 I talked to her by phone, and said what do you need? 8 And she said she thinks she needs four positions. And 9 at that point I didn't know that one was coming over so 10 it's three new position and one transfer. That's how it 11 came about. It was pretty quick. 12 MRS. DOWDY: This is also going to affect 13 the entire staff. I need space and a desk. I 14 need desktop computers. It's an expense. And another 15 thought I had is -- you're not going to like it, but 16 move all of my staff of 15, and if they're a 17 or if 17 they're a 19, they go up two steps. That's another 18 thought. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That calls for a cost 20 analysis. 21 MRS. DOWDY: Yes. 22 MRS. SHELTON: She did request that the -- 23 I'm trying to think, what, that maintenance go up like 24 15,000 to cover the cost of what she thinks to get her 25 more room. So that's part of the cost that is in the 34 1 budget also. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What would the -- in the 3 budget, what positions -- what step and grade do you add 4 in? 5 MRS. SHELTON: So there's the current step 6 and grade for the election clerks are at 15, the grade. 7 The step depends on their tenure. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9 MRS. SHELTON: And then the -- the clerk 10 is -- was put in at a 19-2. Previously, we were just 11 paying a stipend -- or 19. Maybe not the two. 12 Previously, we were paying a stipend for the -- the 13 person that was running it. So that was taken out. And 14 there was also a part-time position in the past that got 15 taken out so that she could get her fourth staff member. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's exactly what I 17 was going to ask. How many of these people are -- 18 they're all full-time? 19 MRS. SHELTON: They will be all full-time, 20 yes. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: There's a lot that goes 22 into elections that people don't realize that goes on 23 all year. So that still sounds high to me but -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I don't really 25 have anything to compare it to. 35 1 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Right. And Medina 2 County now reflects us a great deal. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Exactly. 4 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Size and everything 5 else. 6 JUDGE KELLY: There are a lot of pros and 7 cons as to whether or not you have want to have an 8 election administrator. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Once they were brought in, you 11 want to keep your elected officials because they're more 12 accountable to the people. The other stimulator is you 13 get somebody that has maybe a little bit more expertise 14 and experience. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But from -- just from 16 what I have heard, and I'm not sure if it's accurate, 17 it's very difficult to hire election administrators 18 right now. I think Gillespie County spent most of the 19 year looking and find -- and pleading for one. So, you 20 know, that's another reason not to go that route in my 21 mind, at least right now. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I prefer somebody 23 the people can fire. 24 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, I'm hoping it 25 was all some big what-if. 36 1 JUDGE KELLY: Well -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would agree with that. 3 JUDGE KELLY: -- we're in the unenviable 4 position of having to approve the employment of these 5 additional personnel to be able to provide electoral 6 services for this fall. 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So this is based on 8 everybody coming in at 15? The three new employees? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three at 15 and one at 10 19. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: One that's already at 12 19. 13 MRS. SHELTON: No, a -- a new one at 19. 14 MRS. DOWDY: I'd like to check my position 15 schedule for my seniors. Seniors -- I thought they were 16 at 17 but they might be 19. 17 JUDGE KELLY: I thought they were 17, too. 18 But -- I stand to be corrected. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So who -- if we're not 20 going to have an administrator, who's coming in at 19? 21 What's that person going to be called? 22 MRS. DOWDY: Well, the -- it would be 23 another senior because I'm requesting the Court to make 24 changes with the current request, and then have my two 25 current positions also included, and a couple others in 37 1 there. So I would have four senior clerks as it is. 2 But now this new request, I would want five senior 3 clerks. Senior County Court at Law, Senior Civil, 4 Senior Vital, Senior Land, and Senior Elections. That's 5 my request and I believe the seniors for 17. Because my 6 two admin currently are 17 and they're just retitle. I 7 can go into it more if you like. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So this would be not to 9 exceed a certain amount and it might not cost that much. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we're putting it 11 in the budget so if it's not spent -- 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: It's not spent then 13 we -- but I'm just saying so everybody understands, it 14 might not be that much money. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 16 JUDGE KELLY: Let's be clear and -- so the 17 public understands. We have to attach to our budget 18 annually a position schedule of all the employees, 19 included elected officials and regular Kerr County 20 employees. And that's what we've been struggling on for 21 over a month. And these positions have to be in that 22 schedule or they're not legally authorized -- 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 24 JUDGE KELLY: -- we're not legally 25 authorized to hire them. So we're -- we're running up 38 1 to the last minute to try to get this in. And we 2 appreciate your cooperation. But this is what we're 3 going to have to have to be able to conduct an election 4 in November. 5 COMMISSIONER PACES: I still fail to 6 understand why only one person would go across to 7 continue to work on elections. 8 MRS. SHELTON: And I believe that it's an 9 open position right now. Just FYI. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: If we had an election 11 supervisor, what does that person do? 12 JUDGE KELLY: Chief Deputy clerk. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And just -- Yeah. 14 Okay. So that goes back into the budget, whatever that 15 was. I don't know how much that was. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So it's -- either Bob or 17 Tanya, what was the -- what's the decrease in your 18 budget, do you know? 19 MRS. SHELTON: Bob, go ahead. 20 MR. REEVES: You can go ahead. 21 MRS. SHELTON: Basically what we do is we 22 took 402, it's his own department -- 23 JUDGE KELLY: Let's kind of get to the 24 podium, so everybody can hear what we're doing. 25 MRS. SHELTON: Basically we took department 39 1 row two that you already approved. And so we took out 2 the amount that Bob was going to need for the voter 3 registration clerk, so we kept two of those positions. 4 And if I'm not mistaken -- and Bob, you may need to help 5 me on this -- it was the same two that were there 6 whenever it was transferred to his office. Or before 7 the transfer? 8 MR. REEVES: In 2008, when the transfer -- 9 the tax office had two full-time voter registration 10 clerks. And I believe Commissioner Paces had asked some 11 questions this past week and I supplied him with 12 answers. Currently in my department, I have three 13 full-time election clerks, I have budgeted two 14 part-time, plus my Chief Deputy and it's -- part of her 15 duties are elections. 16 That figures out based on the time roughly 17 four and a half full-time positions, if you figure the 18 part-time and the full-time clerks. The division in my 19 office of coordinating elections versus voter 20 registration is about 50/50. Between conduct -- not so 21 much conducting an election, but I mean the work for 22 doing the elections versus voter registration is roughly 23 50/50. So therefore, I would need two, which would be 24 the same as when it was moved, when the elections was 25 moved over to my office. They moved one from the 40 1 County Clerk's office that is currently my Chief Deputy 2 now, and the two voter registration clerks remained in 3 the tax office. In that part. 4 JUDGE KELLY: So two experienced clerks are 5 going to the County Clerk's office? 6 MR. REEVES: I would suggest, in all 7 fairness, that if they would like to move to Miss 8 Dowdy's office, but also have the opportunity to hire 9 them and -- I think we can't force them. I mean it's 10 certainly up to them. My Chief Deputy will stay. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Now, Bob, did I 12 understand you to say that 50 percent of their time is 13 spent on elections? 14 MR. REEVES: I would say between the four 15 and a half equivalents. My part-time Chief Deputy, my 16 three election clerks, roughly half the time they're on 17 elections, half of the time they're on voter 18 registration. I don't have them assigned all you do is 19 voter registration. Nobody in my office operates that 20 way. So roughly half the time is voter registration, 21 which is a daily job. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And that will keep 23 happening in your office? 24 MR. REEVES: Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Coordinating with the 41 1 rest of elections being in another office, do you see 2 any kind of logistical problems with that at all? 3 MR. REEVES: No, sir, I don't. I mean 4 frankly, it's typical in the absence of an election 5 administrator that the County Clerk coordinates all 6 elections. The tax office, the voter registrar, that's 7 actually broke down by statute, unless the two offices 8 agree to combine. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. Thanks. 10 COMMISSIONER PACES: So what I'm hearing, if 11 you have four and a half equivalent full-time positions 12 and you only need half of it for voter registration, 13 then effectively the equivalent of two people at least 14 should go to County Clerk's office to work elections. 15 Is that -- 16 MR. REEVES: I need two in voter 17 registration. 18 COMMISSIONER PACES: You need two, yeah. 19 MR. REEVES: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER PACES: So two could transfer. 21 MR. REEVES: Well, I would -- I have two. I 22 have an open spot. My Chief Deputy has much more duties 23 than just that. And she'll be able to be freed up to 24 do -- 25 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, but at least the 42 1 money that's been budgeted -- 2 MR. REEVES: I believe we moved one 3 position. I would still need to retain two of my voter 4 registration clerks and Chief Deputy. I could get by 5 with that department. 6 MRS. SHELTON: So there were three original 7 positions when we looked at it this summer. And then 8 there was a stipend paid to his Chief Deputy for the 9 work in the elections department. So when we separated 10 those two, we put the voter registration clerk -- moved 11 it to the tax office and just called it another GO line 12 now for those positions, those two positions. 13 And then we moved -- we increased then on 14 the election side of it for the position to make sure 15 Jackie had the position she has requested. 16 COMMISSIONER PACES: So does the stipend 17 follow the election? 18 MRS. SHELTON: The stipend went away. She 19 asked for a clerk, a senior clerk. And so when we did 20 that, the stipend went away. And she did not request 21 the part-time position either. So that went away. 22 MRS. DOWDY: And do you remember if the 23 senior -- were at 17 or at 19? 24 COURT REPORTER: I couldn't hear you, 25 Jackie. 43 1 MRS. SHELTON: Well, you have choice not to 2 use that amount. It says it clearly in the general 3 provision. I mean we could move it, but it -- what's 4 built in the budget right now is at a 19. 5 MRS. DOWDY: So all of my other seniors are 6 17. And so I would think -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It should be a 17. 8 MRS. DOWDY: -- that it should be a 17 and 9 not 19. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we can put that. 11 I mean it needs to be consistent. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Two at 17 and one at 13 19. Is that what it's being -- 14 JUDGE KELLY: No. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. One at -- the 16 budget has a 19 in it. She only needs a 17 and then two 17 or three -- 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Three at 15. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- three at 15. 20 MRS. DOWDY: Right. 21 JUDGE KELLY: And this -- we appreciate what 22 you're trying to do. This is a scramble and something 23 we didn't really anticipate, but we've gotta put this in 24 the budget. So regardless of our personal feeling 25 about it, we've gotta have it in the budget if we're 44 1 going to run an election. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: An election in less 3 than two months. 4 MRS. DOWDY: Uh-huh. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- I forget what the 7 motion is. 8 MRS. DOWDY: There's not time to think about 9 that even. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's a lot of stuff 11 going on. 12 MRS. DOWDY: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I thought about 14 it all, I just didn't do anything. I thought Jackie 15 would figure it out because she's pretty smart. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: She did figure it out. 17 And I called her and she told me. I'll make a motion to 18 accommodate moving the elections department from the tax 19 assessor's office to the County Clerk's office, that we 20 authorize four positions to be added into the County 21 Clerk's office. Three being a step -- 22 JUDGE KELLY: Grade. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, excuse me. A grade 24 15 and a grade -- 25 JUDGE KELLY: 17. 45 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- 17. 2 JUDGE KELLY: I'll second that. Just to 3 simplify. Discussion? 4 MRS. DOWDY: What's the effective date? 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: It needs to be ASAP. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: October 1. 7 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: A lot of unintended 8 consequences with all this. 9 JUDGE KELLY: Right. Okay. Discussion? 10 Well, let me ask first, is there any need to go into 11 Executive Session? 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I wouldn't mind. I 13 mean -- 14 JUDGE KELLY: Well -- 15 MRS. DOWDY: For what reason? And for what 16 reason? You only have -- 17 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, I would like to 18 talk with -- have Bob and Jackie in there just to talk 19 about the transition. 20 MRS. STEBBINS: Can we talk about this on a 21 break and see if it fits into any of the permissible 22 Executive Session? If it does, we can recall it and go 23 from there? 24 MRS. DOWDY: That's fine. 25 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: That would be fine 46 1 with me. 2 JUDGE KELLY: So my County Attorney 3 suggested it's time for a break and I think 4 strategically it's probably appropriate. 5 MRS. STEBBINS: Yes. 6 JUDGE KELLY: We've got a lot of timed 7 items. We've got a very busy morning docket, so let's 8 take a five minute break and come back at 9:50. 9 (Recess). 10 JUDGE KELLY: Court will come back to order. 11 And I think we've made the determination that we won't 12 need an Executive Session, so -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I -- something 14 else that hasn't been brought up and I think needs to be 15 brought up. Is one that -- and Bob stated at the -- our 16 last meeting that he would do everything to help 17 transition and do all that, so it's not just like all of 18 a sudden it's going to be dropped in the County Clerk's 19 lap. I mean, Bob has committed to making it as smooth a 20 transition as possible. 21 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: He's a team player. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. So -- and I think 23 the other part of it is that I talked to Bob and, you 24 know, open record requests are an interesting thing. 25 And the public certainly has -- and because I had the 47 1 issue is that the public certainly has a right, and I'm 2 all for open records request. But the number -- in 3 talking to Bob previously, and Bob can talk about it if 4 he wants, the number of open record requests he gets 5 going back into the data and date and data, his -- his 6 performance and being able to do his other jobs get put 7 down or delayed, over burdened. 8 I know that we've had an awful lot of open 9 record requests in our engineering department. I would, 10 you know, hate to estimate the dollars that have been 11 wasted in my opinion on members of this Court and our 12 Engineering Department and Road & Bridge Department just 13 on requesting, you know, I think they have received -- 14 it's a little bit off topic, I guess, but it is related, 15 an example of the time it takes, that every 16 communication I've had with the water development board 17 since 2004. Well, that is absurd. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: It's a fishing 19 expedition. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I went through all 21 my e-mails, searched all my personal ones, all the 22 County ones, and they've got thousands of pages and they 23 tell, well, that's too much to print. We don't want to 24 do it. Now that type of thing is not productive. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 48 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A targeted open records 2 request with a specific reason, all for it. But this is 3 blanket ones that are just -- just tie up staff time and 4 are costing the taxpayers thousands and thousands of 5 dollars. Because one open records request takes 6 whatever the Department it is, the County Attorney, the 7 Auditor, it's mind boggling. So anyway. And that's, I 8 think, part of the reason that Bob has made this 9 decision, from my communication with him. 10 MRS. STEBBINS: And if ever y'all want to 11 consider a policy about limitations on the open records 12 request, there are certain things that the 13 Commissioners' Court can do that I'm glad to visit with 14 y'all about it another time. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 16 JUDGE KELLY: But that's not our agenda item 17 for today. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Finally you got one. 19 MRS. STEBBINS: I was just tieing it up. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. We have a 21 motion and a second, I believe, Judge. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Motion and a second to staff 23 the County Clerk's office for the elections department 24 as presented. Any other discussion? 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I don't like it. 49 1 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: And I don't like it at 2 all. 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Between the dog and the 4 fire plug. 5 MRS. DOWDY: I can handle it. If that makes 6 you feel any better. 7 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, that's not -- 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I have full confidence 9 in you, Jackie. 10 JUDGE KELLY: And we appreciate it. 11 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah, that's -- that's 12 not the issue. 13 JUDGE KELLY: So those in favor say aye. 14 Opposed? 15 COMMISSIONER PACES: Aye. 16 JUDGE KELLY: Abstain. So four, one? Four, 17 one. 18 Okay. That takes us to the timed item. And 19 the first one is just a housekeeping thing for us. 20 We'll do it very quickly and that's Item 1.9 consider, 21 discuss and take appropriate action to open and read 22 bids received for property located at 500 Ranchero Road. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: This is a piece of 24 property we were told at first we could just contact the 25 neighbors and sell it to a neighbor. And then we were 50 1 told that wasn't the way it works. So we had to do a 2 little research on it and look at the rules back and 3 forth and then finally it was a sealed bid. So if you 4 want to add anything to that, Miss Stebbins, then -- 5 MRS. STEBBINS: No, that's exactly right. 6 We thought we could -- 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah, we thought we 8 could just sell it to the neighbor. So I -- I drove 9 around and talked to all the neighbors, found one that 10 wanted to buy it and then I had to call him back, you 11 know, and say, Gee, I got it wrong. So -- yeah. So I 12 hated that. 13 MRS. STEBBINS: We thought it was a little 14 bit smaller piece of property and was not as much value 15 but it -- it turned out that it was more valuable. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. Right. 17 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: We've kicked this 18 around for awhile. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We did, yeah. So -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We did not receive any 21 bids. The bids we received was for fuel. 22 JUDGE KELLY: For Kelly. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. So we don't have 24 any bids at all. So can we -- having not done that, can 25 we now go back and talk to the neighbors and -- or take 51 1 it -- I told him this. The one buyer -- we had one 2 buyer. And I said it has to go through this process. 3 MRS. STEBBINS: So no, you can't take it 4 back and visit with him. But we can -- the 5 Commissioners' Court can hire a real estate agent to 6 sell it that way. And I can give y'all some advice 7 about that process. 8 JUDGE KELLY: It's not going to sell. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. It's only good 10 to somebody that's right there and already has adjacent 11 property. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the agent can sell 13 it at whatever price? 14 MRS. STEBBINS: No, it has to be fair market 15 value. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, we -- we did have 17 an offer on it and I thought it was a good offer. 18 COMMISSIONER PACES: Did we get it 19 appraised? 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Beck Gipson did the 21 appraisal. 22 MRS. STEBBINS: He did. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Was the price within the 24 appraisal? 25 MRS. STEBBINS: I don't remember what it was 52 1 so I can't answer that. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: It was close enough for 3 me. That was the way I looked at it. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Could we surplus it? 5 MRS. STEBBINS: I don't know. Let me -- I 6 hadn't thought about that option yet but I can. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Let's pass on that and then 8 report back. 9 MRS. STEBBINS: Okay. Yes, sir. 10 JUDGE KELLY: And so we'll pass on Item 1.9. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So I thought we had 12 bids. How did it get on the agenda this way? 13 JUDGE KELLY: Well, we got bids down in -- 14 for Road & Bridge. 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Oh, it had to be -- 16 okay. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was to open the bids. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: It was to finish up the 19 bid. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. 22 JUDGE KELLY: So item 1.10 consider, discuss 23 and take appropriate action regarding any changes to the 24 proposed Kerr County budget for FY 2023-2024. Miss 25 Shelton. 53 1 MRS. SHELTON: I thought I would start with 2 passing them out this time. And this is from the 3 proposed budget. So today is showing property tax 4 revenues at 31.8 million, and non-tax revenues of 23.5 5 million. Total expenditures are approximately 63 6 million. Estimated expenditures other revenue are 7 approximately 7.7 million, which basically means we are 8 projecting to spend savings to pay for 1.5 million of 9 Road & Bridge expenses, 5.6 million for Animal Control 10 facility, 500,000 for other capital projects. 11 The property tax rate of 43 cents is 12 projected to create a percentage of expenditures in fund 13 balance of 25.9. The minimum standard is 25 percent. 14 Expenditures being funded by this increase includes 15 Animal Control Shelter debt, new debt covering IT, Road 16 & Bridge equipment, the volunteer fire department boat, 17 SO and jail operating expenses, election year expenses, 18 fire protection, new staff possibly moving from Step 1 19 to Step 3, and part-time to full-time in current year 20 for the Veterans Services and the Public Information 21 Officer. It also includes five percent wage adjustment 22 for all staff. 23 Fund balances and future tax increases will 24 be needed in preparation of moving approximately 1.3 25 million in salaries and payroll-related expenditures 54 1 back to the general fund and Road & Bridge funds once 2 the ARPA funds are fully exhausted. 3 Expenditures have increased from the 4 proposed budget by around 900,000. Approximately 5 500,000 was due to the lawsuit filed against the County, 6 250 for new positions for the transition of the election 7 department to the County Clerk. Other increases were 8 for health/dental insurance projection updates, 9 including benefits for the new office positions using 10 grade and step for the emergency responders and Road & 11 Bridge incentives, and adding $500.00 back to the 12 training budget for Constable 3. 13 As stated earlier in the budget process, one 14 cent of property taxes is approximately 500,000 and 15 changes the fund balance by one percent. 16 JUDGE KELLY: So those are the proposed 17 changes? 18 MRS. SHELTON: Yes. On a side note, we also 19 went down and adjusted the revenue that we're expected 20 to get from the Earl Garrett building due to the PDO is 21 now only going to be having a quarter of the building. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And this includes the 23 changes we made this morning? 24 MRS. SHELTON: Yes. And, if anything, it's 25 a little high because we'll be moving it from Grade 19 55 1 down to Grade 17. Does that -- I want to say it maybe 2 somewhere around 4,000 roughly. 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Not a lot. 4 JUDGE KELLY: And this requires an action 5 item. 6 MRS. SHELTON: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I make a motion 8 we approve Kerr County budget for year 2023-2024. 9 MRS. SHELTON: I think that the hearing 10 happens first and so we'll have a record vote later. 11 I'm not sure what the agenda item is. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It just says consider, 13 discuss and take appropriate action regarding. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Well, let -- let me clarify 15 for everybody. I see people that do want to speak. 16 Item 1.10 is to discuss these proposed changes. And 17 they have to either be adopted or not. Then Item 1.11 18 is the position statement which is incomplete. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's schedule. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Position schedule. And 1.12 21 is where we take a record vote and adopt the budget. 22 Okay. Then 1.13 is a public hearing. And that is on 23 the tax rate. Then item 1.14 is an action item to adopt 24 the tax rate, and 1:15 is to adopt the tax rate for the 25 Lake Ingram Estates Road District. Those are the action 56 1 items that we have. And the -- so -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So I guess let me 3 rephrase. My motion is to accept -- 4 JUDGE KELLY: This is on the changes to 5 the -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- approve the changes 7 to the proposed budget for 2023-24. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Correct. Yes. I'll second 9 that. Any discussion? And this will be the part where 10 we call you. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. And 12 Commissioner Paces doesn't have to answer it. My 13 question is you're voting against it. What is your 14 recommended -- how do we solve your -- 15 COMMISSIONER PACES: We would have to have a 16 separate meeting and go back and, you know, peel back 17 this budget. I mean it's just too high. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But where? I mean the 19 only -- 20 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, I know it's 21 difficult but -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- but I'm -- I 23 mean -- 24 JUDGE KELLY: Time out. Time out. I'm the 25 one that's gotta submit this dadgum budget and it's 57 1 gotta go to the State by the end of the month. And 2 we've spent the last five months doing this and we have 3 cussed and discussed every step of the way. We don't 4 have five months to redo the budget. We've gotta have 5 the budget to the State by the end of this month. So -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I'm, you know, 7 looking at the big ticket items as a lawsuit. Well, I 8 mean, you've been very much involved in that lawsuit. 9 It's in your Precinct. 10 COMMISSIONER PACES: And I don't -- sure 11 don't like it. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, I don't -- well, I 13 mean none of us like it. The election thing is another 14 250,000. Well, we won't like that but -- 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Another half step. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Another half step there. 17 COMMISSIONER PACES: That shouldn't have 18 happened. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it did. 20 JUDGE KELLY: And so let me clarify so that 21 the public understands. If we do not adopt a budget and 22 a tax rate, then it reverts back to last year. And that 23 means that a lot of people are going to have to be let 24 go. And there will not be a retention and -- and 25 recruiting budget bonus for Sheriff -- 58 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sheriff -- Sheriff gets 2 nothing. 3 JUDGE KELLY: It will be a true train wreck. 4 Yeah. And you caught yourself, a train wreck. We got a 5 big one coming. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyway, you participate 7 as -- you're totally free to vote any way you want, I'm 8 just curious as to how we can try to solve the problem 9 because we -- in my mind it's better to have a unanimous 10 vote on the budget. But if we don't, we don't. 11 COMMISSIONER PACES: Okay. 12 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. I'm trying to give the 13 Commissioners an opportunity to share your observations 14 and then we'll call the meeting for the public. 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Nobody likes it. I 16 don't like it. You know. Been proud to -- we haven't 17 lowered the tax rate the last three years. We were 18 fortunate we were able to do that. But I've said this 19 numerous times, we're not buying at 2019 prices anymore 20 and it's kicking our butt. Nobody is. And the 21 administration that we have right now in Washington and 22 it's killing us. They brought all this on. You know, 23 look at gas prices in the last three years, what's 24 happened. Yeah. Exactly. That isn't us causing that, 25 that's up there in Washington. 59 1 And we're the -- we're the low man on the 2 totem pole with our unfunded mandates and everything 3 else. And we hire people. We gotta try to keep them. 4 Everybody just talk to the business owners out there 5 that go in there and it's a revolving door. People have 6 a hard time retaining people. And that's what we're 7 trying to do. 8 Because once we lose somebody, you lose all 9 that experience and everything else that goes with it. 10 And you gotta start from scratch again. And I've had to 11 do it before I got here in the school system. It's 12 tough. Retraining brand new people again. And in that 13 situation I felt like the students are the ones that 14 suffered. In this situation it will be the 15 constituents. Because nothing flows as well when you 16 got -- you're training new people. And that's part of 17 it. 18 And everybody knew that -- that bond went 19 through. Boom. Automatic. That's part of it. So -- I 20 don't like it. I mean, like I said, I've been proud the 21 last -- well, every year we've been here. The first year 22 you and I here, I think it was -- we kept the same tax 23 rate and then every year since we've -- we've lowered 24 it. And proud to do it and happy to do it. After 25 awhile, you know, it comes to an end. You gotta go the 60 1 other direction. And I don't like it, but -- 2 JUDGE KELLY: You mean it's like the 3 drought, only money? 4 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah. So that's where 5 we're at and that's where I stand. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Any other comments before -- 7 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, like I said, I 8 sure don't like it. And I've heard from all kind of 9 constituents in the last week or two. Maybe two, I 10 guess. This is an 18 percent increase in taxes that 11 people are going to have to pay and there's a lot of 12 people that are really going to struggle with that, and 13 especially some of those younger families. 14 And we've got a significant portion of our 15 population that's over 65, so their taxes are frozen and 16 they're not having to share the pain here and, you know, 17 at some point we need to revisit that. You know, how -- 18 how long does that go on. People that are voting on 19 bonds, and again, don't have to share the pain of a tax 20 increase that comes with a bond. They're voting that 21 onto other people. 22 So I understand the issue with fixed income 23 folks that are retired and that's also a problem. And 24 burdening them with higher taxes can be crushing. But 25 here in our County we have a significant portion of 61 1 those whose taxes are frozen that are in the higher end 2 of the property valuation cycle and probably don't need 3 to have taxes frozen, but they do. And I don't blame 4 them for taking advantage of it. Sure. But that's 5 another area that we could revisit that would distribute 6 the pain a little bit better. And that's an area of 7 serious concern that I have. I'm just not sure how you 8 go about doing that. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- from that 10 point I think I can answer that. I think that it's a 11 good point. I think it's important that the public 12 understands that the only taxes that are frozen are 13 their homes. Their other assets are not frozen. 14 COMMISSIONER PACES: Sure. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And a lot of them have a 16 lot of other assets. Or property, I should say. It's 17 only the property. I think it's a good point. And I 18 believe it has to -- it's an election that we may be 19 able to call to undo the 65 exemption. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That will not pass. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well -- 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I'm just telling you. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's how you -- but I 24 wouldn't be in favor of it. I mean, I'm over 65 and I'd 25 be in favor of it. 62 1 COMMISSIONER PACES: I would too. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because I don't think 3 it's fair to the young. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: It is not fair. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think that there's 6 something that we should explore, and I'm looking at the 7 County Attorney as to how to undo that. I'm sure -- but 8 I'm pretty sure it's going to take a vote and I can tell 9 you because I was on the court when we did it, that 10 because we had people telling us that if you don't do 11 it, we're calling for a vote and we're going to do it 12 over your -- any consolation, the Court won't let us do 13 it. The consequences have been terrible -- 14 COMMISSIONER PACES: Yeah, they have. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- to the County. 16 COMMISSIONER PACES: But at least people had 17 had a say. So maybe that is what we should do. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with you on that 19 totally. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: A lot of the same 21 people that are getting that tax break are beefing about 22 this increase. You have been a contributor. When you 23 look in the mirror don't think it's just us. It's all 24 of us. Everybody together that voted for that. 25 Everybody that gets it. You're a participant in the 63 1 increase. I hate to say it. I would like to see young 2 families stay here. They grow up here, they finish high 3 school, they go off to school, they don't come home. 4 Ain't any jobs here. Property is too high. 5 I got kids -- I got two kids that live in my 6 Precinct. One of whom has a home that has -- the 7 value's gone up. Keeps going up. Keeps going up. 8 Another one who can't afford to buy a home yet. She's 9 still working on it. I'd like to see my kids stay here 10 and earn a living here and make this a better community. 11 We got people sitting here who have children that are on 12 their way up. We can point blame if you want to. 13 That's fine. I'm a big boy. I can take it too. 14 I've already talked to one Commissioner this 15 week that had to talk me down off the ledge and I said I 16 can't in clear conscience vote for this. And when you 17 review all the reasons, we have to vote for this. But 18 I'm not alone in any condemnation because it falls on 19 everybody that voted for that. I -- I campaigned 20 against the tax freeze. Vociferously. Knowing that 21 someday I could cash in on it and I haven't because my 22 conscience will not allow me to do it for the sake of my 23 children and y'all's children. So I have to say I'm 24 very irritated about the whole thing. 25 But I'm tired of people blaming just the -- 64 1 the people sitting up here or the folks that do the job 2 every day in all these offices. And all they want -- 3 they want a race. They gotta buy groceries just like 4 everybody else and we gotta keep them here. 5 The predecessor to Bob Reeves told me that 6 people would call the office over there, DMV office, and 7 recruit. They'd call them while they were at work and 8 say, hey, you know all the stuff -- while they were 9 talking to them, getting license plates and stuff, the 10 local car lot. They'd steal them away. We'd train 11 them, they'd go someplace else because they were paying 12 them more money over here. I'm sure it still happens, 13 doesn't it, Bob? 14 COMMISSIONER REEVES: Yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yes. So they call in 16 to get a couple license plates. By the way, you sound 17 pretty sharp, do you wanna come to work for me? I'll 18 pay you more money than they're paying you. That's what 19 Commissioner Harris was talking about with retention. 20 We've got to be able to pay so we're not always training 21 people. Because if you want to stand in a longer line 22 in there getting your plates and getting your title, we 23 just won't pay them any more, then we'll always have 24 kids in there that are learning. That's all I got. 25 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, and I'll just 65 1 add, I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with Commissioner 2 Harris. A lot of this is a result of the Federal 3 overreach and the budgets that are out of control in 4 Washington, D.C. All the money that was printed that's 5 been driving inflation. You know, we're all paying a 6 huge price for that. And that's a big part of the 7 impact on our budget, which I -- I can't come up with 8 any real solutions on what to do there. 9 I do think that we got a little bit carried 10 away. I fully support our Sheriff's Department and Road 11 & Bridge and they're providing critical services that 12 our citizens expect from us. But frankly, I think 13 again, we got just a little bit carried away with all of 14 the increases. We needed to do something. I would 15 have preferred to do a little bit less and perhaps we 16 could have still had a significant impact on keeping 17 people and look at it again next year. 18 I mean the problem is every time we do this, 19 you know, it's built in the next year and then you gotta 20 do something on top of that. And all the benefits and 21 so forth are multiplied. 22 JUDGE KELLY: And before we hear from the 23 public, I've got two applications to speak. Let me just 24 remind you that the -- we started working on the 25 budget -- I started working on the budget in April and 66 1 we got our draft budget out in May. And so for the last 2 five months we have been working on this. 3 And the initial budget that I submitted for 4 consideration was in mid-May, that's when I submitted 5 it, was a no new tax revenue budget. And we've been -- 6 spent five months and you've heard me remind you, time 7 and time again, I didn't like the way we were going. 8 But here we are. 9 And the one thing that I would remind the 10 public is the five of us have a fiduciary obligation to 11 run the County government and to do that, we have to 12 have the adequate employees to be able to do it. And I 13 can tell you that anybody that started work at the 14 County at a Grade 15 will not be able to purchase a home 15 in Kerr County. I can tell you that. Because we don't 16 have any affordable housing. So we're in a catch 22 17 here. 18 We've gotta do the best we can. Protect the 19 taxpayers as best we can. Run the government for the 20 people as best we can. And you gotta remember that 21 we're the entire legal system for the County. I mean 22 unless you get a traffic ticket you go in municipal 23 court, we do it all. The clerks -- and people don't 24 understand how important what the clerks do. And what 25 HR has to do. And seriously, we gotta run this thing, 67 1 and this is very difficult to do. 2 So all I can say is at the end of the day, 3 we can blame Washington all we want but we're the ones 4 that have to run the government here. So I got both of 5 these at the same time. I don't know who's first. 6 Y'all can decide who goes first and who goes second. 7 Maria Hammerlein. 8 MS. HAMMERLEIN: Hello, my name is Maria 9 Hammerlein and I live in Kerr County. I just want to -- 10 you know, after hearing everything there's been a couple 11 of pieces missing. One of those is, yeah, there are you 12 know people who have their property taxes frozen, but 13 there are those, you know, if -- if you move, and you're 14 over 65, let's say you move from Harris County and you 15 move here, well, you're going to have that -- well 16 not -- you've gotta wait 12 months, but then your -- 17 your taxes are frozen, but they're frozen at a higher 18 rate. 19 So don't think that there are people that 20 are getting away with murder, because they are not. 21 They're paying -- they're paying way more than they 22 would have paid even in Harris County. God forbid. So 23 keep -- you know, just keep that, you know, in your 24 cross-hairs. We pay -- the Judge says that he doesn't 25 think we understand what the clerks do. I worked for 68 1 the district clerk, Harris County District Clerk. I 2 worked for the Harris County Clerk. I worked elections. 3 I volunteered. We do. You know, a lot of us do. So 4 we -- we understand the pain. We understand, you know, 5 the court system. We were born at night, but not last 6 night. 7 So with that being said, from what I have 8 seen I believe that if there was, you know, 9 responsibility in one -- you know, in the County Tax 10 Assessor Collector's office -- well, that should be -- 11 it should have been budgeted. In my eyes, that should 12 move over to where it's going to be housed. Should it 13 not? So why are we so upside down? There should be 14 some -- you know, you move people. I never had a say-so 15 in what was being done to me. So yes, I have empathy 16 but I'm also paying tens of thousands of dollars in 17 taxes. So my empathy stops at a certain point. 18 Now, the other thing is that I am a 19 Republican precinct chair, so my responsibility is to be 20 out there talking to people. Well let me tell you, I 21 was at the gun show yesterday. There are people who are 22 fed up. There are people who wanted to be here and they 23 did, they've paid way more than they really should be 24 paying and they're really sweating it now. And, you 25 know, sadly I had to tell them, hey, you know, it's 69 1 going up, just so you know. 2 Now, a lot of us, we said -- we -- we did 3 say don't put that on the ballot. Let's not go there. 4 So, you know, I love dogs. I do my part. I give. I -- 5 you know, I'm very involved. 6 (Timer buzzing.) 7 MS. HAMMERLEIN: But there's still going to 8 be some dogs who are going to have priority before I 9 will. So -- just keep that in mind. Thank you. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you, Miss Hammerlein. 11 Ms. Hall. 12 MRS. HALL: Good morning. Terri Hall, 13 speaking on behalf of We The People, Liberty In Action. 14 But also I just wanted to emphasize -- oh, I live at 118 15 Independence Lane in the County. I'm here to speak on 16 behalf of so many of the working class and middle class 17 families that are at work right now that cannot be here 18 to come to speak to you about the impact that this tax 19 increase is going to have on their lives, but I thought 20 I would just read to you from an article that I found 21 very interesting by Jeffrey Tucker, who is with 22 Brownstone Institute about the state we're in. What do 23 you spend money on month to month? It's your rent or 24 your mortgage, food at home or out, utilities and gas. 25 Those are the basic categories. Look at the government 70 1 numbers on what you actually purchase, the items and 2 sources you consume that dominate part of your income. 3 Stretch it back three years. Everything's going up and 4 up and up and has been for three years. 5 Looking at the items on what you actually 6 spend money, we find increases between 18 percent and 22 7 percent, not this eight percent they try and blow into 8 our ears in the media. We spend an average -- just 9 average it out, it's a 20 percent increase. Now look at 10 real disposable income. That results in the -- of the 11 increase of a pathetic three percent compared to three 12 years ago. So your income demands are up 20 percent, 13 whereas your leftover cash is barely up at all. That's 14 essentially a disaster for everyone's standard of 15 living. In short, you've been robbed. 16 Now, let's compare this to what everyone 17 recognizes as the great inflationary disaster of the 18 Post War period known as the Carter Years, 1978 to 1982. 19 These were the times when the federal government 20 pillaged in public, drained away the value of savings 21 and capital and forged a complete reorganization of 22 family life. At the end of this period, the average 23 American household went from living off of one income to 24 get the American dream to having two income households. 25 That happened in 198. Now, after that households have 71 1 had two incomes and live well on two incomes instead of 2 one. How do our times compare to then? 3 Well, in the last three years we've seen the 4 value of the dollar fall 20 percent in terms of what you 5 actually spend money on, while income has barely gone up 6 at all. And during the great disaster of 43 years ago, 7 this exact same phenomenon occurred over two years 8 rather than three like we are. It's only valuable to 9 our ruling class masters in terms of the extent to which 10 the public complains, which is what we're here doing 11 today. The great inflation fundamentally changed life 12 in America and we were never the same economically or 13 culturally. 14 So I'm asking you -- it's talking about how 15 it's demoralization of the public, we have ill health, 16 lack of ambition, substance abuse, widespread despair. 17 How can this be turned around? And it talks about 18 massive changes in the public administration the likes 19 of which we've never seen to reduce the tax burden on 20 their constituents. This has to be turned around. What 21 do you do when you have two parents that are already 22 tapped out? You send our kids to work? They can't even 23 afford car insurance or putting gas in the car to even 24 go work on a minimum wage job at this point. Who's 25 going to pick up the extra slack and what are we going 72 1 to do with this economic crisis. 2 (Timer buzzing.) 3 MRS. HALL: And this is laid at your feet. 4 I understand that a lot of this is out of your control 5 but you can control your budget, and we're begging you 6 to lower it, please. No new revenue budget. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you Miss Hall. 8 Any other discussion? 9 MS. CAINES: Yes. Judge Kelly, I'm sorry. 10 I actually signed up for 1.12, but I think my comments 11 might be more appropriate here, if I might. 12 MRS. DOWDY: Nikki Caines? 13 MS. CAINES: Yes. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Miss Caines. 15 MS. CAINES: Is that okay? 16 JUDGE KELLY: How do you say it? 17 MS. CAINES: Caines. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Caines. 19 MS. CAINES: Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Just like the Aussies did. 21 MS. CAINES: Thank you. First of all, thank 22 you, gentlemen, for acknowledging 9-11. It was a moment 23 in time that my husband and I lived through while we 24 were in the DC area. And as Commissioner Harris said, 25 everything that happens in DC naturally seems to roll 73 1 downhill towards us. And here we are facing the same 2 thing. We have residents here in Kerr County that last 3 year was also hit with a 19 percent increase from the 4 City. 5 And Commissioner Belew, I agree with you, 6 the voters have to get off their duffers and educate 7 themselves as to what they're voting for. I, for one, 8 like Ms. Hammerlein said, I love animals as well. But 9 there are certain things that I believe should be funded 10 privately and not on the voters' back. I don't know 11 where you will make cuts. 12 I have been praying James, Chapter 3, where 13 it says, Where does wise counsel come from. And it says 14 the Bible, which is the Word of God, prayer and speaking 15 to people with -- who are wise and have gone through it 16 before. 17 I don't envy you this, but as Miss Hall said 18 as well, the taxpayers here are overwhelmed and I 19 believe at some point it's either going to be a 20 playground for the rich or it's going to be a ghost 21 town. Because companies, businesses around here are 22 always looking for help. It is a revolving door 23 everywhere and I don't know how that's solved. But I 24 applaud you and I pray that you make the right 25 decisions. 74 1 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you, Miss Caines. 2 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Nikki, this is an 3 original thought, but maybe try to clean up Washington 4 and a lot of people have suggested election day be April 5 15th. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. We've got a motion and 7 a second. Any other discussion? 8 MRS. DOWDY: So this is on proposed changes 9 to the proposed budget. 10 MR. MOBLEY: So later. 11 MRS. DOWDY: Correct. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Unless you feel like 13 it's more appropriate now. 14 MMR. MOBLEY: No. I just -- I just felt 15 like the -- 16 JUDGE KELLY: Just a minute. This is 17 Mr. Russell Mobley? 18 MR. MOBLEY: Russell Mobley. Yes. I live 19 at 1041 Royal Oak. I just moved here from New Jersey. 20 My property taxes are going to be about -- about $350.00 21 away from what I paid there for a house there and a 22 house here. So it's a very high tax state, as you know. 23 But I was looking at, you know, if the taxes 24 keep increasing here, will I have to either go back to 25 work as a retired person or will I have to -- will I 75 1 have to continue working as a retired person or will I 2 have to move out of my house. Will I just be forced 3 out? I heard some figures of 500,000 for other -- other 4 charges, 500,000, which is a half a million dollars. 5 You know, it's not play money to most people. 6 And then I heard a five percent increase for 7 employees. Now I'm not against employees getting an 8 increase but -- but myself, I worked in the aerospace 9 industry for 40 years. Never saw a five percent 10 increase. Never, ever, ever saw a five percent 11 increase. I saw a three and a half at the most, and 12 most of the time it was two and a half when times were 13 bad. 14 When times got rough for the company, that's 15 what we had to do. Corporate wouldn't -- wouldn't 16 accept that because you have all these subsidiaries 17 working for corporate, and they could not report that 18 back to you. They would -- they would be ashamed to do 19 it. So, you know, that's all I have to say about that. 20 I'm against the new taxes and I don't know 21 how I'm going to continue paying them. I saw -- when I 22 moved into my house, they re-appraised it, drove it up 23 $42,000, which is a 13 percent increase. You keep 24 compounding that in ten years, the $364,000 house will 25 be worth $1.41 million dollars. If you continue to do 76 1 that. You just can't -- I can't -- I can't do it. I 2 mean -- so I'll have to -- I'll have to make some tough 3 choices probably within the five year mark. You know, 4 either -- either to move out or do something drastic. 5 But I love this town. 6 When I came here, I came here like ten years 7 in a row on vacation. I'd always come to Kerrville. 8 Beautiful town. Gorgeous place to live. Nice people 9 here. Which I -- I'm just hoping that I can stay here. 10 That's all I wanted to say. 11 COURT REPORTER: How do you spell your last 12 name? 13 MR. MOBLEY: M-O-B-L-E-Y. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Time to vote. Those in 15 favor say aye. Opposed? 16 COMMISSIONER PACES: Aye. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Four, one. 18 Moving on to 1.11 consider, discuss and take 19 appropriate action to adopt the updated Position 20 Schedule and rescind Court Order No. 40178. Miss 21 Hernandez. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: While Miss Hernandez 23 comes up I'll make a couple comments. For better or 24 worse, I got more involved in the position schedule last 25 week, as did Jody, Noel, Tanya, all the staff in HR. 77 1 And I only put it on our agenda about October -- the 2 first meeting in October to appoint a committee to come 3 up with a new payroll -- or step and grade position 4 schedule. 5 What we have now is cumbersome, archaic, 6 inaccurate. And I say inaccurate because it's all based 7 on the step, and the steps are really not a true two and 8 a half percent off the base or off of the previous year, 9 which means that people that further -- that are way out 10 on the step are getting a different percentage, usually 11 higher, than someone further back from the very 12 beginning of the step. 13 So anyway, the system is really bad. And 14 its been this way -- I saw Cindi this morning. I said, 15 When did we get -- adopt this system? Because she used 16 to be in the HR Department, and she said it was there as 17 long as I can remember. So we have a system that 18 probably wasn't all that good. And we have made it 19 worse and worse and it all came to a head in my mind 20 this year. Partially because of ARPA. That -- that's 21 adding complications to it definitely. SB 22 adds more 22 complications. 23 But it is just an extremely difficult system 24 to work with. And we've had a lot of iterations trying 25 to get to this. And I don't know if this is an accurate 78 1 one or the final one, I don't think it is, but I'll turn 2 it over to Rosa. 3 MS. HERNANDEZ: So after yesterday's review, 4 me and -- my staff and I stayed here late last night. 5 We left about ten o'clock last night. And -- to make 6 the changes. So we turned it over this morning to the 7 Auditor's Office for review. So what you have has not 8 been reviewed by the Auditor. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the reason -- I mean 10 it's got -- let me go back. The reason it's so 11 important is that, one, it create our salaries, our 12 budget. It's also -- has to get input into the 13 Treasurer's Office for payroll, which is right around 14 the corner. 15 And we sit up here -- and I'm just going to 16 go over the ARPA funds a little bit. And, you know, I'm 17 still baffled as to why it's not right. But we sit up 18 here and let people like Jackie has some people that are 19 paid out of one fund and others paid out of a dedicated 20 fund and now we have ARPA. And ARPA is different for 21 different entities, and how it's done. 22 Well, there's a different line item for 23 every one of those things. So there's some people in 24 the Sheriff's Department, for example, probably be the 25 worse. They could have their payroll each two-week 79 1 period is coming out of four or five different accounts. 2 Definitely four. Well, three. 3 MRS. SHELTON: Three. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three accounts. And, 5 you know, some of the others -- I don't know if Jackie 6 had one in this category, but it could come out of two. 7 And everyone's different. 8 And you have to go out -- we say oh, we're 9 giving a five percent raise. Well, our step and grade 10 system isn't set up for five percent. So someone might 11 be actually getting a 4.8 percent, some of them might be 12 getting a 5.2 percent. You know, just because of the -- 13 of the schedule we've been using for years and it's got 14 to the point where it's just not really the percentage. 15 Tanya, what do we do at this point do you 16 think? That would be my question. Just pass, adopt? 17 JUDGE KELLY: Well, let -- let me weigh in. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 19 JUDGE KELLY: The position -- let me state, 20 first of all, I need to correct something I said 21 earlier. We're not required by law to attach the 22 position schedule. We can, we traditionally have. We 23 like to have a position schedule that has been reviewed 24 by the Auditor and everybody's in agreement that we're 25 good to go. The problem with the position statement is 80 1 it's an allocation nightmare. Truly an allocation 2 nightmare. 3 You've got to allocate ARPA is so much, this 4 fund is so much, that fund is so much. And you gotta do 5 it per employee. And we've got 350 employees? 6 Ballpark? 7 MISS HERNANDEZ: About. Yes. 8 JUDGE KELLY: And I can tell you that for 9 the last three weeks I've been on the warpath. And I 10 have visited with Miss Hernandez personally. I've 11 visited with Ms. Shelton personally. I've -- 12 we've(indicating Commissioner Letz) visited personally 13 about it. And Jody has listened to the whole thing, 14 whether she wanted to or not. 15 And I've gotta tell you, the offices, the 16 Auditor's Office, the HR Office, and we even drug Tracy 17 into it, I think, the Treasurer's Office even. And -- 18 and the County Attorney's in this thing also. We've 19 been up to our eyeballs in it. And everybody has worked 20 their tail off. I can't tell you how many weekends over 21 the last -- I'm going to say the last two months for 22 sure, but probably three months, that I've seen people 23 from the Auditor's Office up here on the weekend and 24 late at night. And for the last three weeks it's been 25 nonstop for HR and Auditor, I can tell you that. And we 81 1 still don't have it reconciled. 2 So while we usually attach the position 3 statement, we're going to have to have this one 4 reconciled after we adopt the budget because we just -- 5 we couldn't get it done in time. And it's just redoing 6 things. And -- and you figure out you've included 7 something that you shouldn't have included or you didn't 8 include -- you didn't apply the correct allocation 9 amount. And a lot of it has to do with the grades and 10 the steps, because we can only increase, if we increase 11 it by a grade or a step. We don't have salary ranges, 12 which is what I want to go to. And I think that's what 13 you want to go to. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 15 JUDGE KELLY: And I think we've all learned 16 our lesson. That's where we'd like to be. But this is 17 finishing up an archaic system. Next year's budget, 18 hopefully, will be with salary ranges rather than 19 position schedule like this. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But that will come with 21 the challenges of the -- 22 JUDGE KELLY: Oh, of course. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- and the transition. 24 And that's going to be another tough year because of 25 that. 82 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 2 JUDGE KELLY: Well, nobody said this was 3 going to be easy. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I don't mean 5 that. I mean if you -- if you think this is complicated 6 and tedious and you're putting actual dollar amounts on 7 it and changing it all and putting ceilings on positions 8 and so on, it's going to be just as difficult. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think once -- the 10 difference is you're a hundred percent right to create 11 the new system is going to be tedious and difficult, and 12 some employees you know may not be happy, some may be 13 happy. You know, leave it at that. The benefit will be 14 when we say a five percent increase, it's five percent 15 and it's just done. Now, it's not five percent. You 16 gotta go two steps or two -- two steps down the ladder. 17 And that's those percentages because the way they'll be 18 calculated for years are a problem. 19 How it started this way, I have no idea. I 20 asked the Auditor. I said well, can we -- what if we go 21 back and base it off the base pay like it should be, the 22 increase. I think the Auditor ran a quick check on that 23 and we have a number of employees that would be making 24 substantially less money. And because -- just the way 25 it works. It's compounded. It's the same thing as 83 1 compound interest. The further out you go, if you 2 compound the year before, the year before, the year 3 before. Anyway. 4 And I'd be glad to help -- if you really 5 want us to go into my lack of understanding of it or 6 understanding, I'll be glad to visit with anybody or 7 talk to Tanya or Rosa or the Judge. 8 JUDGE KELLY: But the bottom line is we're 9 not in a position today, we're not in a place today 10 where we can adopt the position schedule. And so, we 11 don't have enough time here today because there's 12 nothing that we can do. We've got to adopt the budget 13 based upon the best guesstimate we've got right here. 14 But we're going to have to get it verified probably 15 through a third party. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 17 MRS. STEBBINS: I'm sorry to interrupt. But 18 you may want to rescind the Court order that's listed in 19 that item, because it was an incorrect position schedule 20 at that time. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Oh, okay. Right. Okay. 22 You're right. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's one -- 24 JUDGE KELLY: Did we have it -- 25 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah, it's Court Order 84 1 40178. 2 JUDGE KELLY: 40178. So I'll move that we 3 rescind Court Order No. 40178. 4 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second. 6 Any discussion? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hold on a second. Do we 8 also need to rescind 40177, which is the step and grade 9 schedule, or is the step and grade schedule okay? 10 MS. HERNANDEZ: That one's good. 11 JUDGE KELLY: It's okay. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was okay? Okay. So 13 it's just 40178. Okay. 14 JUDGE KELLY: So we got a motion and a 15 second the rescind Court Order No. 40178. Any 16 discussion? Those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? 17 Unanimous. 18 Now, record vote. This is a 9:45 timed 19 item. We're running late. This is 1.12 consider, 20 discuss and take appropriate action to adopt the 21 FY 2023-2024 Kerr County budget and take a record vote. 22 And we've got one -- we need to have a 23 motion and a second before we can open up to the public 24 on this, Mr. Fitch. Give me just a minute. Just wait a 25 minute, please. Okay. Ms. Shelton. 85 1 MRS. SHELTON: So we'll need to take a 2 record vote in order to pass the budget as it was 3 changed and was presented to you earlier today. 4 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 6 we adopt the FY 2023-2024 Kerr County budget as 7 presented. 8 JUDGE KELLY: I'll second it. We've got a 9 motion and a second. Now we can start some discussion. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's a very 11 unhappy motion, but I'll make the motion. 12 JUDGE KELLY: I think we're all disgusted. 13 Okay. Mr. Fitch. 14 MR. FITCH: Good morning, gentlemen. Bill 15 Fitch and I am from the City. I was reading something a 16 couple of days ago and saw where the State, and it turns 17 out -- thank you, Don, for showing me -- it was SB 22 18 where they were going to give money to the Sheriff's 19 Office depending on the size of the population of the 20 County. And if I read our population correctly, we get 21 half a million dollars -- 22 JUDGE KELLY: Correct. 23 MR. FITCH: -- off that. And that was 24 great. I was excited. And also by the way, thank you 25 Don for responding and thank you Judge for responding. 86 1 But the thing that caught my attention was that when 2 Judge Kelly wrote back, he said that it was already in 3 the budget. Which is great. Until I started thinking 4 about next year. I'm sorry. I know we're working on 5 this year. But that's going to be unfunded for the next 6 year if I'm not mistaken. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Actually, no. 8 MR. FITCH: Oh. 9 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah. Yeah. 10 There's -- 11 JUDGE KELLY: First of all, I just got back 12 from the legislative update in Austin the week before 13 last. Okay. And listen, I talked to a number of the 14 elected representatives there. And this Senate Bill 22 15 is for -- it's bi -- biennium. For two years. So we 16 got this year and next year. 17 But the intent is every biennium for the 18 legislature to reincorporate this. This is intended to 19 be a permanent addition to funding -- streams of 20 funding for the County. For the Sheriff's Office and 21 for the Prosecutor's Office. So I've been assured by 22 the people at the highest levels that this is something 23 that we can count on. 24 MR. FITCH: Good. 25 JUDGE KELLY: Which is very rare and very 87 1 much appreciated. 2 MR. FITCH: Okay. Well, very good then. 3 Thank you for that. 4 JUDGE KELLY: And the Sheriff did grant 5 permission for us to include that in the budget, so 6 that's already been folded in to try to reduce the 7 burden on the taxpayers. 8 MR. FITCH: Okay. And the only other thing, 9 again, is just I feel bad for these folks who could be 10 losing their homes as a result of this. But I also feel 11 bad for what y'all have to do. Thank you. 12 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you, Bill. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I think that what 14 Mr. Fitch is talking about is that we're going to have 15 to continue to pay people at the same level, and we were 16 worried we were going to have to have increases in taxes 17 year after year after year. 18 MR. FITCH: That was my concern. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. 20 JUDGE KELLY: And I share your concern. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We all talked about 22 that up here. The possibility of that. 23 JUDGE KELLY: Any other discussion? 24 COMMISSIONER PACES: I guess I'll just say 25 that -- I mean I know I've been opposed to the budgets 88 1 as presented. But I do appreciate -- there's only so 2 much we could do. You know, so what would it take for 3 me to approve the budget? I would just ask that we find 4 a way to reduce it by two percent. Just two percent. 5 That's 1.2 million dollars. And I'd go along with it. 6 But you know we have to do something. We have to make 7 some effort. And I don't know if you can do that. Just 8 across the board, every budget line, two percent. Does 9 it matter? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think -- can you 11 do it across the board? Yes. At this point, no. I 12 think -- because there are certain line items that -- I 13 mean we have to be responsible and be able to fund the 14 budget and to make an arbitrary cut like that -- 15 COMMISSIONER PACES: There's always money 16 that we don't spend too and -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER PACES: -- I'm aware of that 19 so -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The option -- and I 21 don't know if this might be coming too late -- is to 22 take it out of reserves. And that's risky. Especially 23 looking at next year. That's the -- as I look at it 24 and taking it out of reserves is the only way you could 25 do it. 89 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, they said that 2 when we were going into COVID and it didn't hurt us a 3 bit. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Nobody suffered. We 6 actually did that. 7 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: You don't know. You 8 don't -- it's an unknown. I mean, it worked out. 9 COMMISSIONER PACES: Taking out of reserves? 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, we -- we weren't 11 sure going into COVID what was going to happen. 12 COMMISSIONER PACES: Sure. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: There was some concern 14 that we were going to lose revenue and we did not lose 15 any revenue. 16 JUDGE KELLY: Well, in all fairness I 17 think -- I think your inquiry's important and I think 18 it's important that the public understand, and I think 19 you had the matches and fought the fire this year during 20 the budget. We did when we -- 21 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Oh yeah. There wasn't 22 any playbook. 23 JUDGE KELLY: The budget season lasts about 24 five months. And we can't schedule anything else in my 25 household until the budget season is over because this 90 1 is the number one priority until we get it done. And I 2 do intend to go out of town next week. Just for what 3 it's worth. 4 But these changes that you want to make, and 5 I'm talking to the public and -- well, just sharing with 6 the Court. If you want to make the change, we have to 7 start that process early and we can't wait for the 8 record vote day. That's not when we do it. It's 9 just -- that's just not the way County government works. 10 And so if you're going to go in with a 11 scalpel and start trying to carve out things that you 12 can reduce in the budget, that has to -- that -- that 13 takes place in June -- well, June and July. But 14 particularly July is when we're doing all this. 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah, but you don't -- 16 you don't look at your reserves until you know what your 17 final figure is. 18 JUDGE KELLY: That's true. Yeah. Well, I 19 watch them all the time. That's just me. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, when you see this 21 is -- this is not a good -- a good budget but it's too 22 much of an increase, that's when you say where can we 23 get more money, which is which Commissioner Paces just 24 brought up. 25 COMMISSIONER PACES: All I'm going to say 91 1 is, Judge Kelly, I remember your comments on July 17th 2 and you were not happy. 3 JUDGE KELLY: I'm not -- I'm still not 4 happy. 5 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, I know but nor am 6 I and that's the point. Somehow we got comfortable and 7 then the budget only went up from there. 8 JUDGE KELLY: And I fussed and -- and nobody 9 listened. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But things happened also 11 that -- 12 JUDGE KELLY: But there's some things we 13 just have to do. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And something happened 15 that we were totally unexpected for until the -- the 16 late lawsuit issue. That -- that's a lot of money. 17 Defending it. But long term, that's a -- it's a good 18 decision in my mind. I mean short term it's costing a 19 lot of money, but you know as long as we win it's a good 20 decision long term. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And that's not 22 something we went into willingly or knowing what it's 23 going go cost or whether the other party's going to back 24 down, but it was for the protection of people in Kerr 25 County. 92 1 JUDGE KELLY: We did the right thing. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Sir? 3 JUDGE KELLY: We did the right thing. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We did the right thing. 5 I believe we did. 6 JUDGE KELLY: But -- 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Just gotta fight it and 8 prove it in court. 9 JUDGE KELLY: Well, that's the half a 10 million dollars that went in there to try to pay for the 11 attorneys on that lawsuit. 12 MR. MOBLEY: Could I -- I have a question. 13 I don't know if you had a -- it sounds to me like -- 14 JUDGE KELLY: Can you go to the podium, 15 please? 16 MR. MOBLEY: Yeah. It sounds like you're in 17 the 11th hour here. And it sounds like an entrenched 18 position. Is there -- was there a meeting when you came 19 up with your initial goals, like you know, one month in 20 instead of going five months into a six month thing 21 where you have a one-month deadline to submit to the 22 State? Is there some way that you could have a public 23 hearing where -- 24 JUDGE KELLY: Let me tell you what the 25 calendar is, it's real simple. 93 1 MR. MOBLEY: Okay. 2 JUDGE KELLY: I submitted my proposed 3 budget. County Judge is chief budget officer of the 4 County. 5 MR. MOBLEY: All right. 6 JUDGE KELLY: And I submitted my proposed 7 budget at the second Monday of May. That's when I did 8 it. I didn't do it at the end -- I tried to do it at 9 the end of April but I couldn't get it done, so I got it 10 out by mid-May. And that -- and it was done in open 11 court. Right here. Just like I'm doing today. 12 MR. MOBLEY: All right. So there was a 13 meeting. 14 JUDGE KELLY: And then what happens is -- 15 then what happens is that is opened up -- my proposed 16 budget it opened up to all of the elected officials and 17 the department heads and they get to start looking at 18 what I put in there for them. 19 MR. MOBLEY: Well, I standard corrected. 20 That's all. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Well, excuse me. I'm giving 22 you the gavel. And they get their proposals back by -- 23 and we get a chance to look at them about the first 24 Tuesday -- the second Tuesday of June. And so then we 25 schedule the workshops. And we had three full-day 94 1 workshops in -- in the month of July, a week or two 2 apart, where we went through this very thing. And you 3 remember I was fussing. And that's -- that's when the 4 real tough decisions are made. 5 By the time you get into August, we've got a 6 preliminary budget together. And then by the time you 7 get to September, this truly is 11th hour. That -- that 8 is the schedule. So May to September. 9 MR. MOBLEY: I -- I didn't know about the 10 previous meeting. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, one other thing -- 12 what's interesting or important is that we don't get the 13 final appraisal numbers which really dictate, you know, 14 revenue coming in, the revenue side, until basically 15 July 31st. 16 MR. MOBLEY: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you know, we're 18 doing the expenditure side over here and then at the 19 last minute we get the revenue side coming in from 20 the -- certified, as the appraisal roll is certified, 21 and then we're still working on other revenue sources, 22 such as sales tax, trying to get projections and other 23 things. 24 So the problem is that it's not the -- it's 25 an odd way to do the budget and I've learned that -- 95 1 because you're doing all the expenditures, then you get 2 the revenue side over here and you try to make it mesh, 3 and then you start pushing up against the 11th hour. 4 MRS. HALL: If I may just say something 5 more? The public was not allowed to comment on it until 6 two weeks ago. That was the first chance the public 7 could ever make one word publicly on the budget and 8 that's in the 11th hour. 9 During the budget workshop the public is not 10 allowed to speak, give our opinion, and frankly, when I 11 attend those or watch them online, you can't -- we don't 12 know what's in front of you. We can't see what you're 13 seeing. We don't have the line items. We don't have 14 the budget to even comment on until two weeks ago was 15 the first chance we had that. And frankly, it's almost 16 impossible to find it on your website or get ahold of 17 it. 18 So I think that you're setting up the public 19 for failure because how are we supposed to comment on 20 something we can't see and that we can't say a word 21 about until the open public hearing which is two weeks 22 before you make the final decision? So I don't think 23 that that's a fair way to do the process. 24 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I understand what you're 25 saying. But I'm not sure that that can -- my proposed 96 1 budget goes in on -- up on the website in May. 2 MRS. HALL: I couldn't find it. 3 JUDGE KELLY: We go public in May. 4 MRS. HALL: I couldn't find it. I'm pretty 5 adept at -- 6 JUDGE KELLY: Well, you can get with Miss 7 Walter to help you find it. 8 MRS. HALL: But I couldn't comment on it 9 until two weeks ago. 10 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Those workshops and 11 everything are videoed just like this Commissioners' 12 Court and we bring different people in. Just like 13 the -- I'll use the VFDs as an example. My gosh, we're 14 not mandated to fund them, but we feel like they're an 15 extension of the County and they do a heck of a job, and 16 they're hurting, too. And thank God we have them right 17 now, the way things are out there and crispy -- the 18 whole County could go up in flames. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Well, let's get back on track 20 here. We've got a record vote. Any other discussion? 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well -- 22 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct 1 -- oh. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- it -- it was brought 24 up taking money out of reserves. 25 COMMISSIONER PACES: I'd be in favor of 97 1 that. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Are you -- well, are 3 you making some kind of motion? I want to know where 4 that's going. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Well, we got a motion on the 6 floor right now. 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I -- I just want 8 to know what his intentions are. What -- what are 9 you -- if you're proposing that? 10 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, I was proposing 11 if we could lower the budget by 1.2 million dollars, I'd 12 vote for it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess the question 14 is -- 15 COMMISSIONER PACES: So it's just a matter 16 of I don't know how you do that. You -- you suggested 17 lowering the reserve. I'd make a motion to lower the 18 reserve. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well see, I've never 20 heard this come up in a budget discussion at all. And 21 if you have a specific dollar amount or application for 22 it, where you're going to apply it, I don't know that 23 I've ever known that we would put it in our budget 24 discussion. 25 MRS. SHELTON: Your fund balance with the 43 98 1 cents, at the end of the year the percent of 2 expenditures and fund balance will be 25.87. 500,000 is 3 approximately one percent. So you're going to be going 4 down less than what the standard is -- 5 JUDGE KELLY: It would be two and a half 6 percent. 7 MRS. SHELTON: -- to do that. And also, 8 you've got -- also you've got to start building your 9 fund balance right now, because you've got 1.3 million 10 currently that is being paid by ARPA, that they weren't 11 given a stipend, so that is going to have to be -- 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 13 MRS. SHELTON: -- absorbed by your -- your 14 fund, and you've got two years, possibly three years, to 15 build that fund balance in order for those salaries to 16 not be affected or better salaries. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: To replace the ARPA 18 funds? 19 MRS. SHELTON: Uh-huh. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would -- and I'm not 21 advocating this. But the mechanism to do what 22 Commissioner Paces or any other Commissioner wants to, 23 if he wanted to lower the budget a little bit -- really 24 what you do is you change the tax rate. You adopt the 25 budget and you do a tax rate at 42.5 -- 99 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- and which would -- 3 it's going to impact -- it's going to make the budget -- 4 the revenue numbers wrong on the budget but the budget 5 is still there. 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But funds come out of 7 the reserve. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the difference I 9 mean every year. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: If -- if we needed it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. The bottom line 12 is at the end of the year, we either have a big -- you 13 know, we never know what the deficit is going to be -- 14 COMMISSIONER PACES: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- or our fund balance is 16 going to be until the end of the year. 17 COMMISSIONER PACES: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So it could be the same, 19 could be much higher, could be much lower than we're 20 projecting. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And it always -- we 22 never have full employment. We always see something at 23 the end of the year with that. That's part of it. 24 COMMISSIONER PACES: We should make -- 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's just -- 100 1 COMMISSIONER PACES: -- an effort to -- 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- one example. 3 COMMISSIONER PACES: -- have full 4 employment. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, we -- we might do 6 better this year because there's more money in the 7 budget for payroll. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the mechanism is 9 what I think -- my understanding would be of that type. 10 The only way to do it at this point, because we can't 11 redo the budget. We just don't have time. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean the budget's the 14 budget. It's where you set the tax rate is where a 15 change could be made. 16 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, that still 17 benefits the citizens instead of being an 18 percent, 18 it's 16 percent. It's something. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: You didn't make anybody 20 happy saying that. 21 COMMISSIONER PACES: No, but -- 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's just the reality 23 of it. 24 COMMISSIONER PACES: Exactly. 25 COMMISSIONER BELEW: If you tell somebody 101 1 it's going to be 18 percent but it's an increase, they 2 just want to hear no increase. 3 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, I realize that. 4 And I -- I can't get there. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: No, we can't get there. 6 That's -- 7 COMMISSIONER PACES: And I'm -- I'm trying 8 to make the public aware that I don't have any ideas how 9 it gets there. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. I know. 11 COMMISSIONER PACES: But I do think if we 12 all try to tighten the belt a little bit, you know, at 13 least -- 14 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Every little bit helps. 15 COMMISSIONER PACES: Cutting the budget 16 roughly two percent or in this case just cut the tax 17 rate so the taxpayers see that benefit. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I don't know if what 19 I said can be done. That's just how my mind works. 20 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, I appreciate you 21 thinking out of the box. I mean, I think we need to do 22 a lot more of that. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, Judge, you were 24 the one that was so adamantly opposed to this, to the 25 increases. 102 1 JUDGE KELLY: I know. 2 COMMISSIONER BELEW: What do you think 3 about -- about that idea? 4 JUDGE KELLY: I'm worried about the 5 contract. 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's what I was 7 thinking. You've gotta turn -- 8 JUDGE KELLY: We can see what we've gotta 9 spend to run the government. And, you know, a lot of 10 these expenses we didn't anticipate. I didn't include 11 them in my draft budget. I didn't realize it was going 12 to be that difficult to be able to recruit and retain a 13 Sheriff's Deputy. 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, we got hit with 15 something else today. There are four more employees. 16 And that's unintended. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's not small. 18 JUDGE KELLY: So -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I recommend we vote on 20 the -- to approve the budget because we really can't 21 change it -- I mean vote against it. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, it's just a 23 matter of how you pay for it really. 24 JUDGE KELLY: We're going to move on to the 25 tax rate here next. 103 1 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Okay. 2 JUDGE KELLY: So I'm calling for a record 3 vote on -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The budget. 5 JUDGE KELLY: -- the budget for FY 23-24. 6 Precinct Number 1. 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yes. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct Number 2. 9 COMMISSIONER PACES: I can't do it. No. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct Number 3. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 12 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct 4. 13 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yes. 14 JUDGE KELLY: And I vote yes. Four, one. 15 Item 1.13, it's a public hearing. Convening 16 the public hearing to discuss the proposed tax rate for 17 Kerr County and Lateral Roads. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Before me -- let me point a 19 personal -- we have our newly retired District Judge 20 leaving the courtroom right now. I want the record to 21 reflect that he is well tanned and relaxed. 22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you for what y'all 23 are doing. 24 JUDGE KELLY: That's Judge Keith Williams. 25 Okay. Mr. Reeves. 104 1 MRS. DOWDY: Are we on 1.13 or 1.14? 2 JUDGE KELLY: One three. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Public hearing. 4 JUDGE KELLY: It's a public hearing. Don't 5 go far. Does anybody want to appear for the public 6 hearing? Okay. Then I'll adjourn the public hearing 7 and I'll move on to 1.14, which is to consider, discuss 8 and take appropriate action to adopt the 2023 tax rate 9 for the Kerr County and Lateral Roads. Mr. Reeves. 10 MR. REEVES: Yes. Gentlemen, before I 11 begin, the language to adopt a tax rate is very 12 specific. If you anticipate you may change it, I would 13 suggest a short recess. 14 And I don't know how we're going to do this, 15 Miss County Attorney, but if you're going to vote to 16 adopt something lower than what you proposed some way, 17 I'll need to know without violating your open meeting 18 how to write the order. Because it's very specific. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Well now you've got the draft 20 orders, right? 21 MR. REEVES: I've got the draft order for 22 the proposed rate, yes, sir. 23 JUDGE KELLY: Well, why don't you present 24 that and let's see what happens. 25 MR. REEVES: On August 28 of this year, the 105 1 Court voted four, one, zero, proposed the tax rate for 2 the 2023 tax year at 43 cents for 100 dollars valuation. 3 This represents a rate which is higher than the no new 4 revenue tax rate for Kerr County's general fund and the 5 lateral roads fund, but it is lower than voter approval 6 rate. 7 This rate is a combined rate, being broken 8 down as 35.56 cents per 100 dollars valuation for 9 maintenance and operations. The interest and sinking 10 fund is 5.18 cents per 100 dollars. That valuation and 11 the lateral roads fund is 2.26 -- 2.26 cents per 100 12 dollars valuation. The notice of the proposed tax rate 13 was published in the local newspaper in accordance with 14 the property tax code as well as on the pertinent 15 website posting. 16 I have attached a copy and passed up to you 17 for your -- should you so desire to adopt this rate and 18 it will require a record vote. 19 I will point out in the motion, the last 20 sentence about a hundred thousand dollar home. That's 21 not the number Bob came up with, that is the one they 22 say to use by the State Law and there's not many hundred 23 thousand dollar homes left. 24 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. I move that the 25 property tax be increased for the 2023 tax year by the 106 1 adoption of a tax rate of 43 cents per one hundred 2 valuation. The rate consists of 35 5/6ths cents per 3 hundred valuation for the maintenance and operation and 4 5.18 cents per 100 valuation for the debt, and two -- 5 MR. REEVES: 2.26. 6 JUDGE KELLY: -- 2.26 per hundred valuation 7 for the lateral roads, which is effectively an 18.3 8 percent increase in the tax rate. This tax rate will 9 raise taxes for maintenance and operations more than 10 last year's rate, and the tax rate for maintenance and 11 operations will effectively be raised by 15.45 percent 12 and will raise taxes for maintenance and operations for 13 a $100,000 home by approximately $48.00. That's the 14 motion. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second. 17 The floor is open for discussion. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I want to -- since I 19 seconded it, I seconded it because I would like to go 20 with a little bit lower rate but I also think that 21 because we're depending on a lot of ARPA funding and 22 that funding will dry up, I think that the risk to the 23 taxpayers is not worth it to be lowered. Because I 24 think that next year we're going to be compounding the 25 payroll issue which is a big part of our budget. That's 107 1 my comment. 2 JUDGE KELLY: Any other discussion? 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I never wanted ARPA 4 money in this County. 5 JUDGE KELLY: Take 'em or break 'em. 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well maybe. That's yet 7 to be seen. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's just kind of burnt. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER PACES: I didn't either. But 11 we're still pregnant. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But it's too late to 13 cry over it now. 14 COMMISSIONER PACES: The little stuff, once 15 we approve the seven million. 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, this whole month 17 has been like wearing a shoe that doesn't fit. It's 18 been a miserable -- 19 JUDGE KELLY: Now, Bob is this a record 20 vote? 21 COMMISSIONER REEVES: Yes, sir. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Any other discussion? 23 COMMISSIONER PACES: Bob, is your 18.3 24 percent increase in the tax rate or just in the taxes 25 assessed? 108 1 MR. REEVES: It's in -- the adopted rate 2 would be 18.3 percent above the no new revenue rate. 3 COMMISSIONER PACES: Okay. I agree with 4 that then. Above the no new revenue rate. 5 MR. REEVES: Not -- last year's rate is -- 6 COMMISSIONER PACES: But not compared to 7 last year's rate. 8 MR. REEVES: Last year's rate is gone at 9 this point, Commissioner. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Well, and -- and to refresh 11 everybody's recollection, the effective rate this past 12 year was 45 -- .4051 percent, right? 13 MR. REVES: I believe that's correct, isn't 14 it? 15 MRS. SHELTON: Yes. 16 MR. REEVES: I've looked at too many rates. 17 JUDGE KELLY: No, it was -- it was 40 and a 18 half cents, okay, per hundred. It was 51 and a half 19 when I came on the court. When Don and I came on the 20 court. The no new tax revenue rate for this year, this 21 coming year, is .3636 because that's what we've been 22 reducing. We've gotten it down to 40 cents -- 40 and a 23 half. And just left at 43. Any other discussion? 24 COMMISSIONER PACES: My point was just when 25 you talk about taxes versus tax rate, from the last 109 1 year's tax rate it's only a six percent increase. We're 2 having the benefit of having much higher appraised 3 value, which is why the taxes are going up on average by 4 18.3. 5 JUDGE KELLY: It's always nice to remind 6 people, we don't have control over the appraised value. 7 That's the Appraisal District. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Record vote. 9 Precinct 1. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yes. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct 2. 12 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, since we approved 13 the budget I feel I kinda have to approve this, so I'm 14 actually going to pull in and say yes. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct 3. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct 4. 18 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yes. 19 JUDGE KELLY: And I vote yes. Unanimous. 20 Next issue on the agenda is Item 1.15 21 consider, discuss and take appropriate action to adopt 22 the 2023 tax rate for Lake Ingram Estates Road District. 23 Mr. Reeves. 24 MR. REEVES: Yes. Gentlemen, on August 28 25 the Court unanimously approved a tax rate for the Lake 110 1 Ingram Estates Road District being 11.51 cents per 100 2 dollars valuation for the 2023 tax year. And notice of 3 this public meeting was published in the local newspaper 4 in accordance with the requirements of the Texas 5 Property Tax Code. 6 In addition, in accordance with the Code the 7 appropriate postings were placed on the website and 8 Internet. I passed out a copy of how the motion to 9 adopt the tax rate should be read into the record. This 10 should also be a roll call voice vote, please. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. I move to adopt the 12 Lake Ingram Estates Road District tax rate of .1151 per 13 hundred dollar valuation for the 2023 tax year. The 14 entire tax rate will be dedicated to the interest and 15 sinking fund. 16 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second. 18 Any discussion? And I'll call for -- this is a record 19 vote? 20 MR. REEVES: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Record vote. Precinct 1. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yes. 23 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct 2. 24 COMMISSIONER PACES: Yes. 25 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct 3. 111 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 2 JUDGE KELLY: Precinct 4. 3 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yes. 4 JUDGE KELLY: And I'll vote yes. Unanimous. 5 Five, zero. 6 MR. REEVES: Thank you, gentlemen. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Can we take a break? 9 JUDGE KELLY: Let's take about a five-minute 10 break, and inform everyone that Commissioner Letz and I 11 have an appointment we have to make at 12:00 so -- and 12 we'll be back for the 1:00 o'clock hearing. 13 So, Harley, you will be the senior member of 14 the Court and preside in our absence. What we don't 15 finish before one o'clock -- 16 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. 17 JUDGE KELLY: -- or if we have -- just take 18 a break at 12:00 and we can do that. But the unfinished 19 business on this agenda will have to be completed after 20 the one o'clock timed item. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. Thank you. 22 (Recess.) 23 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Item 1.16 consider, 24 discuss and take appropriate action for the Court to 25 authorize the County Judge to execute Amendment No. 13 112 1 to the Professional Services Agreement between Kerr 2 County and Tetra Tech in the amount of $260,256.00 3 funded under the Texas Water Development Board Project 4 No. 10366 for additional services related to design, 5 construction and inspection of the East Kerr 6 County/Center Point Wastewater Collection Project. 7 Charlie Hastings. 8 MR. HASTINGS: Thank you, Judge. Phase II 9 and Phase III of construction of the East Kerr/Center 10 Point Wastewater Collection project are still underway. 11 The construction contractor, D Guerra Construction, is 12 overdue by more than 260 days on Phase II construction 13 and over 415 days on Phase III construction. 14 Tetra Tech has continued to work with the 15 project team to further the completion of the project; 16 however, the delays in completion by the contractor have 17 extended the services being provided by Tetra Tech for 18 construction engineering and for construction 19 inspection. The projected date for completion of 20 construction is mid-November of this year; therefore, 21 Tetra Tech proposes to continue construction engineering 22 and construction inspection services under the proposed 23 Contract Amendment No. 13 that is before you. 24 The project construction is being inspected 25 by KCI under contract with Tetra Tech acting as the 113 1 Resident Project Representative (RPR). Tetra Tech 2 proposes to extend RPR services to cover the remaining 3 project construction schedule. The presence of the RPR 4 on site has provided quality assurance for the project 5 construction, reduced change orders and provided better 6 communication and coordination between all parties 7 involved. There is a scope of services attached and a 8 price proposal for more details. 9 The project is funded by various funds 10 issuances through the Texas Water Development Board 11 Project No. 10366. There are sufficient funds remaining 12 to cover the additional fees included in this Amendment 13 13. These funds are included in the following Texas 14 Water Development Board funds: The CWSRF Loan Fund 15 L1000484, CWSRF Loan Forgiveness Fund LF 1000748, EDAP 16 Grant Fund G1000435, and EDAP Grant Fund G1000904. 17 There are other funds with remaining funds 18 available, but these funds contain sufficient remaining 19 funds earmarked for engineering and inspection services 20 to provide for this amendment. 21 Don Burger with Tetra Tech is here, if you 22 have any further questions. 23 JUDGE KELLY: Always good to see you here. 24 MR. BURGER: Good to see you. Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not something we want to 114 1 do but we gotta. We definitely, with this contractor, 2 in my mind need to keep the inspector and engineering 3 firm here. It's not their fault. So I make a motion to 4 approve Amendment 13. 5 COMMISSIONER PACES: I'll second. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 7 approve the contract amendment as proposed. And I 8 agree, this is something that we need to do. And it is 9 grant money so the money there is good. Any other 10 discussion? Those in favor say aye. Opposed? 11 Unanimous. 12 Moving on to Item 1.17 consider, discuss and 13 take appropriate action on the proposed 23-24 14 Engineering Department fee schedule. Charlie Hastings. 15 MR. HASTINGS: Thank you, Judge. The 2022-23 16 Kerr County Engineering Department Fee Schedule was 17 adopted in 2022 by Court Order No. 39574, and was based 18 on a comparison of the following counties: Kerr, 19 Bandera, Kendall, Chambers, Medina, Atascosa, Wilson, 20 Williamson, Guadalupe, Comal and Hays. 21 The 2023-24 Engineering Department Fee 22 Schedule is proposed with no changes from the previous 23 year for the Court's approval. 24 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Move for approval. 25 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 115 1 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 2 approve adopting the Engineering Fee Schedules as 3 presented. And we -- we adjusted all these last year, 4 right? 5 MR. HASTINGS: Yes, sir. 6 JUDGE KELLY: So we're -- we're current. 7 MR. HASTINGS: Yes, sir. And they -- 8 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Received well? 9 MR. HASTINGS: It has been. There really 10 hasn't been an issue all year. 11 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Good. 12 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. We've got a motion and 13 a second. Those in favor say aye. Against? Unanimous. 14 Thank you. 15 Item 1.18 consider, discuss and take 16 appropriate action to set a date and time for a water 17 availability workshop. 18 Charlie, I know you wanted to do this this 19 week but I'm just covered up. I'm sorry. 20 MR. HASTINGS: Yes, sir. And that's 21 understandable. I got with Jody and we were looking at 22 some days in October. 23 Jody, was it October the 11th that we were 24 targeting? 25 MRS. GRINSTEAD: I think that's what it was. 116 1 The 11th at 10:00 a.m. 2 COMMISSIONER PACES: What time? 3 MRS. GRINSTEAD: 10:00 a.m. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: 10:00. 5 MR. HASTINGS: I've reached out to 6 Headwaters and we'll let them know the date and time 7 that you set. 8 JUDGE KELLY: What date are we talking about 9 again? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 11th. 11 COMMISSIONER PACES: The 11th. Charlie, 12 what are you -- what are you hoping to do in this 13 availability workshop? 14 MR. HASTINGS: What we'd really, really like 15 to do is hear from one of the professionals in this 16 field, Kaveh Khorzad, he works -- he does water 17 availability studies all over the State of Texas. And 18 he's also consultant for Headwaters. 19 And so he's renowned in the industry. I've 20 talked to himself several times about the interpretation 21 of -- of State Law about water availability and he -- 22 he's let me know that -- how best to interpret it, in my 23 opinion, and I'd really like to hear from him. 24 I'd like for the Court, I'd like for the 25 County Surveyor to be there, and for Headwaters, and for 117 1 all of us collectively, and any other surveyors that are 2 in town or engineers that are local ones. Let's come 3 and let's have a good workshop where we can ask all the 4 right questions and see how are we supposed to be 5 interpreting these rules and regulations. 6 The ones that are in our model subdivision 7 rules, the ones that are in our regular rules. What are 8 we supposed to require? Because we're going to continue 9 to come to the Court with case by case folks that should 10 they really be doing a water availability study? 11 There's a water provider right here. But our rules 12 say -- and I think we need help with that interpretation 13 so the Court can have confidence on those case by case 14 basis. 15 There will be times where you think, yep, we 16 really do have to do one. And there will be times when 17 you say no, it's ridiculous, you don't need to do one. 18 So I'd like for -- for you to have confidence when we 19 bring those case by case. 20 JUDGE KELLY: The more educated we are, the 21 better decisions we're going to make. 22 MR. HASTINGS: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's an 24 excellent idea. 25 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Well, I move that we 118 1 have a water availability workshop for October 11th at 2 10:00 a.m. 3 COMMISSIONER PACES: I'll second it. 4 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second for 5 a water availability study as presented. Any 6 discussion? Those in favor say aye. Opposed? 7 Unanimous. 8 1.19 consider, discuss and take appropriate 9 action for the Court to set a public hearing for 10:00 10 a.m. on October 23, 2023 for a revision of plat for 11 Kerrville Country Estates Section 2, Lots 35A and 35B. 12 Charlie. 13 MR. HASTINGS: This proposal revises and 14 recombines a lot that has -- was previously subdivided 15 into two lots. We will combine Lot 35A and 35B, both of 16 those are 5.002 acres each, returning them to a single 17 lot. Lot 35R will be 10.004 acres with road frontage on 18 Kerrville Country Drive and Solar Hill. 19 These lots are located in Kerrville's ETJ. 20 Before -- they have a rule if they're over five acres 21 you don't have to plat through them. This is going to 22 be 10 acres now. And it wasn't an issue last time, 23 don't expect it to be an issue this time. 24 The County Engineer requests the Court set a 25 public hearing for 10:00 a.m. on October 23rd, 2023 for 119 1 a revision of plat for Kerrville Country Estates 2 Section 2, Lots 35A and 35B, Plat File No. 22-08493, 3 Precinct 1. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Move for approval. 5 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 8 approve the public hearing as requested for Kerrville 9 Country Estates. Any discussion? Those in favor say 10 aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 11 Item 1.20 consider, discuss and take 12 appropriate action to obligate the remaining America 13 Rescue Fund Plan Act funds that have been allocated to 14 the Veterans Pathway Project. Ms. Putnam. 15 MS. PUTNAM: Good afternoon. On the 16 Veterans Pathway Project we're coming towards the end 17 stages with the engineering portion. And come October, 18 I'm going to be coming in to ask to go ahead and go out 19 for bids for engineering. So at this time, as you -- 20 MR. HASTINGS: Construction. 21 MS. PUTNAM: Oh, construction. I'm sorry. 22 For construction. At this time we've obligated the 23 funding for engineering services, but we have yet to 24 obligate the remaining allocated funds for this project. 25 And that's what I'm asking of you today, is to go ahead 120 1 and obligate the remaining funds, the funds for this 2 project. 3 JUDGE KELLY: For construction. 4 MS. PUTNAM: For construction. And to 5 complete the project. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move for approval. 7 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 9 approve funding the obligation to fund for the 10 construction on the Veterans Pathway Project from the 11 ARPA funds. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. I didn't 13 intend to ask but I will. What happens if the 14 construction budget comes in higher than the funds were 15 obligated? 16 MS. PUTNAM: At this point in time, the 17 committee has diligently been working to make sure that 18 that does not happen, and are still on track to not have 19 that happen. We're still within the remaining -- 20 there's a chance, I guess, that we could go a little bit 21 over, but not foreseeing it. 22 MR. HASTINGS: There's always a chance but 23 if -- if that does happen, what I would anticipate is, 24 one, looking if there's anything that could be done 25 differently or dropped from what's being bid. I have a 121 1 couple of ideas already in mind. 2 But the meeting that we just had with the 3 engineer last week, the committee, we really said hey, 4 this is getting really tight here and it's starting to 5 feel uncomfortable. Well, costs have gone up twice. 6 They said we can skinny this up right here. They don't 7 quantify what that would do, but like she said, we've 8 been -- we've been working hard to make sure that the 9 engineered plans that go out for bid are only things 10 that we absolutely need. Yes, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: And Charlie, we -- did 12 we get work with Maldonado to go to the edge of their 13 property or whatever? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yes? Okay. Good. 16 JUDGE KELLY: I went and looked at it on 17 Saturday, yeah. Okay. This is the -- we already got a 18 motion and a second. Any other discussion? Those in 19 favor say aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 20 Last timed item today, until this afternoon, 21 is Item 1.21 consider, discuss and take appropriate 22 action to open, read and award the annual bids for 23 delivered fuel. Miss Hoffer. 24 MS. HOFFER: Yeah. We just would like for 25 you to open and read aloud and if there's one, I'll go 122 1 ahead and award it. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We received one bid from 3 Maxey Energy. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I'll just read 5 the total price for their four different grades. 6 Supreme is $3.68 -- or three dollars 6818. Unleaded is 7 three dollars point 0877. On-road diesel is three 8 dollars 58.25, and off-road diesel is three dollars 9 3870. They seem like pretty good prices. Do you to 10 want review it or just go ahead and accept it? 11 MS. HOFFER: I think you can go ahead and 12 award it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 14 we accept the bids from Maxey Energy. 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 16 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 17 accept the Maxey Energy bids as presented. Any 18 discussion? 19 MRS. DOWDY: Did you want to accept and 20 award, or just accept it? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Accept and award. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Accept and award. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 24 JUDGE KELLY: As presented. 25 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Good catch. 123 1 JUDGE KELLY: Any discussion? Those in 2 favor say aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 3 MS. HOFFER: Thank you. 4 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 5 Item 1.22 consider, discuss and take 6 appropriate action to nominate up to five persons to the 7 Kerr Central Appraisal District Board of Directors for 8 24-25. 9 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: We don't have to do 10 this until December to submit names, do we? 11 JUDGE KELLY: I don't remember. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: It's awhile. 13 COMMISSIONER PACES: Sometime in October. 14 And then we get to vote in December. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I'll tell you, I asked 16 about half a dozen people and I don't have one that's 17 agreed. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. The one I asked 19 said I'm done with boards. 20 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I talked to Lary 21 Priour on Thursday or Friday and he's willing to do it 22 again. And who was our other? 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We had two, right? 24 Total? 25 COMMISSIONER PACES: It says we can nominate 124 1 up to five, isn't it? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, we can nominate 3 five, but our -- but based on your vote allocation we -- 4 we vote for two to make sure we get -- 5 COMMISSIONER PACES: Yeah. Alternates. 6 Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- our -- 8 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: We can basically get 9 two for sure. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- two. I can't think 12 who the other one is. 13 JUDGE KELLY: Let's pass this. 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah, I think so. We 15 got time but we need to work on it. 16 COMMISSIONER PACES: I've got a couple 17 candidates that have been suggested to me but I haven't 18 had time to reach out to them and see if they're 19 interested. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let's give it time and 21 pass. 22 JUDGE KELLY: Our next agenda item is 1.23 23 consider, discuss and take appropriate action to ratify 24 and confirm the SAVNS (Statewide Automated Victim 25 Notification Service) Grant Award for FY 2024. 125 1 We got Ms. Putnam up there but -- Sylvia and 2 Ms. Putnam came to me and these are needing to be done 3 by a certain deadline and they recommended that I 4 approve them. So I signed them and so now I'm asking 5 for forgiveness. 6 MS. PUTNAM: These are reimbursement grants. 7 The standard grant is for $18,030.39 and we just ask 8 that you ratify and confirm your signature to accept 9 that order. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Are we've been doing this 11 since I've been on the Court. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Move for approval. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 14 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 15 approve ratifying the SAVNS grant as presented. Any 16 discussion? Those in favor say aye. Opposed? 17 Unanimous. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Harley was supposed to 19 move this along. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's right. 21 JUDGE KELLY: 1.24 consider, discuss and 22 take appropriate action to ratify and confirm the SCAAP, 23 that's State Criminal Alien Assistance Program, Award 24 Acceptance for FY 2022. 25 MS. PUTNAM: Yes. It's behind. That was a 126 1 year behind. It's very confusing. 2 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. 3 MS. PUTNAM: And in this one the amount is 4 $26,317.00. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move for approval. 6 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 8 approve ratifying and confirming the SCAAP grant as 9 presented. Any discussion? Those in favor say aye. 10 Those opposed? Unanimous. 11 Item 1.25 consider, discuss and take 12 appropriate action to ratify and confirm the Texas 13 Department of Agriculture Interlocal Cooperation 14 Contract between Kinney and Kerr County, Amendment No. 1 15 regarding a 2022 Texas CDBG Colonia Fund: Planning and 16 Needs Assessment. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: What does that mean? 18 JUDGE KELLY: I don't know. 19 MRS. GRINSTEAD: You approved the first 20 contract. That copy was the -- 21 JUDGE KELLY: This is part of that deal with 22 Kinney County that -- 23 (Talking over.) 24 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I thought all of 25 our deals with Kinney County had to do with Operation 127 1 Lone Star and that sort of thing. So what -- what are 2 we doing here? This is ag. 3 COMMISSIONER PACES: Somebody's doing a 4 study to identify colonialism, I guess. I don't know. 5 MRS. STEBBINS: This is just a change in the 6 date to the contract that you guys already approved. 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. How old is this 8 thing, Heather? 9 MRS. GRINSTEAD: It's not very old. The 10 original is in the backup. I've got the original 11 agreement in there. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I don't remember this. 13 MS. PUTNAM: I believe this is something 14 that was going through with data picking up -- was a 15 part of this. It's -- it's just to be a part of a 16 study. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. Move for 18 approval. 19 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 21 approve the TDA Interlocal Cooperation Contract with 22 Kinney County as presented. Any other discussion? 23 Those in favor say aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 24 1.26 consider, discuss and take appropriate 25 action to approve a one-year contract for Inmate Health 128 1 Care Services between Kerr County and Wellpath, LLC. 2 Sheriff. 3 SHERIFF LEITHA: Yes. I'm looking for 4 y'all's approval to approve a one-year extension 5 contract with our medical health services, which is 6 Wellpath, at $1,106,487.99. The money is in my budget 7 and the contract has been approved by the County 8 Attorney. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Move for approval. 10 COMMISSIONER PACES: Second. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 12 approve the Health Care Contract with Wellpath for the 13 Sheriff's Office as presented. Any discussion? 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: How much of an 15 increase did we see from last year? 16 SHERIFF LEITHA: About $106,000. 17 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Ten percent? 18 SHERIFF LEITHA: Yeah. If it was more than 19 that we'd have to renegotiate. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Any other discussion? Those 21 in favor say aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 22 Item 1.27 consider, discuss and take 23 appropriate action to surplus various items from 24 Constable Precinct 2, Veterans Services, and 25 Environmental Health Departments. Ms. Mendoza. 129 1 MS. MENDOZA: Good morning. And so I have 2 various items from them. The Constable Precinct 2 is 3 surplusing an old office chair, Veterans Services has a 4 mini fridge, and Environmental Health Department has 5 various office furniture from their old office. 6 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I move for approval. 7 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Second. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 9 approve the surplus items as presented. Any discussion? 10 Those in favor say aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 11 We'll skip over the timed item at 1:00 12 o'clock and move down to the approval agenda. 2.1 13 budget amendments. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hold on. 15 MS. HOFFER: I've got a problem with what 16 was read. This right here was the current total price 17 for the fuel. It's the rack price, the total that needs 18 to be read into the court record. I'm sorry. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Let's go back and amend 20 the motion to approve the contract with Maxey. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The one on the fuel with 22 Maxey? 23 MRS. GRINSTEAD: 1.21. 24 JUDGE KELLY: 1.21. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 130 1 MS. HOFFER: It's just the total on the rack 2 price. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 4 MS. HOFFER: They included what, based on 5 that August date, was what the price was per gallon. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. All right. The 7 gasoline unleaded fastracks was .4044. Diesel high 8 sulfur off road, the fastracks is .2162, and diesel low 9 sulfur on road is .4162. 10 So I make a motion that -- probably easier 11 to rescind the previous court order and make a new 12 motion to award and accept Maxey Energy as read into the 13 record. 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. We got a motion and a 16 second to rescind the prior order regarding the Maxey 17 contract prices and adopt the ones that were just 18 presented to the Court. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- what is -- 20 what's fastracks? What does that mean? 21 MS. HOFFER: Isn't it where when they go and 22 they purchase the fuel that it holds -- if -- it won't 23 go up on that fastracks? 24 MRS. SCHERWITZ: It's for those that was 25 just read, those are the ones that they will add to 131 1 whatever the fluctuating rate is per day. 2 MS. HOFFER: Yes. 3 MRS. SCHERWITZ: But that -- that will 4 always stay the same. But our fuel fluctuates each week 5 when we get it. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 7 MS. HOFFER: And there's no way of them 8 being able to hold the price per gallon total and so 9 they do that. So that price there stays at that for 10 that whole year period. 11 JUDGE KELLY: That's the fixed portion of 12 the price that we pay for our fuel. 13 MS. HOFFER: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Okay. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Got a motion and a 16 second. Any discussion? Those in favor say aye. 17 Opposed? Unanimous. 18 MS. HOFFER: Thank you. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Now we move on to budget 20 amendments. 21 MRS. SHELTON: Yes. You have in front of 22 you 17 budget amendments. These are line item 23 transfers. Some of them due are from the contingency 24 fund. And there are three that the Auditor is 25 certifying that there's no revenue. 132 1 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I move for approval. 2 COMMISSIONER PACES: I'll second. 3 JUDGE KELLY: We got a motion and a second 4 to approve the budget amendments as presented. Any 5 discussion? 6 MRS. DOWDY: Who made the second? 7 COMMISSIONER PACES: I did. 8 MRS. DOWDY: Oh. I can't hear. 9 COMMISSIONER PACES: Second. 10 MRS. DOWDY: Thanks. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Those in favor say aye. 12 Opposed? 13 Moving on to Item 2 point -- that's 14 unanimous. 15 Moving on to 2.2 pay bills. 16 MRS. SHELTON: Yes. Today's invoices total 17 $539,134.52. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Move for approval. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and second to 21 approve the bills as presented. Any discussion? Those 22 in favor say aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 23 Auditor reports. 24 MRS. SHELTON: Auditor reports. So you have 25 received the letters concerning the independent or 133 1 the -- not independent, the internal audit for Justice 2 of the Peace Precincts 1 through 3, the tax office, 3 Animal Control, and Environmental Health. 4 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I'll move for 5 approval. 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Second. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 8 approve the Auditor reports as presented. Any 9 discussion? Those in favor say aye. Opposed? 10 Unanimous. 11 2.5 Accept monthly reports. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Okay. For -- excuse 13 me. For August, 2023. Environmental Health, OSSF, 14 Director Ashli Badders. Auditor's monthly report, Tanya 15 Shelton. District Clerk, Dawn Lantz. Constables, 16 Precinct 1 Tommy Rodriguez. Precinct 2 Kyle Schneider. 17 Precinct 3 Paul Gonzales. Precinct 4 Brad Rider. 18 Justice of the Peace Precinct 2 J. R. Hoyne. Precinct 3 19 Kathy Mitchell. I move for approval. 20 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Second. 21 JUDGE KELLY: Got a motion and a second to 22 approve the monthly reports as presented. Any 23 discussion? Those in favor say aye. Opposed? They're 24 all accepted. 25 2.6 court orders. 134 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have our court orders 2 from our August 28th meeting, numbers 40167 through 3 40199. They all look to be in order and make a motion 4 to approve. 5 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Second. 7 JUDGE KELLY: Motion and a second to approve 8 the court orders as presented. Any discussion? All in 9 favor say aye. Opposed? Unanimous. 10 Moving on to information agenda. 3.1 11 status reports from department heads. 12 There being none we'll move on to 3.2 13 status reports from elected officials. 14 There being none we move on to 3.3 status 15 reports from Liaison Commissioners. 16 Okay. With that, we will go into recess -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait. It's not on the 18 liaison commissioners -- it's kind of liaison. My -- I 19 guess 550 I kinda look as my liaison even though I'm not 20 listed there. 21 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Unofficial. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Unofficial. I visited 23 with Jennifer Sanchez about something to consider if 24 they would like to move into that building. I also 25 visited just briefly with Judge Mitchell if that's what 135 1 she sees. I'm just talking to people saying, hey, you 2 know, we will have space available over there and if one 3 of them talks about moving, you know. 4 Part of the moving things around a little 5 bit to try to make space work better. You know, that's 6 just an update on that. I was going to meet with 7 Jennifer and -- what's the new guy's name, Shane? 8 JUDGE KELLY: Chase. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Chase. And kinda do a 10 little bit of walking over there. 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Will we have a 13 Constable over there? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we -- it depends. 15 JUDGE KELLY: We could. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We could. 17 COMMISSIONER BELEW: We could have. 18 JUDGE KELLY: But we don't have a courtroom. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't have a 20 courtroom over there. Anyway, so it's just a -- just a 21 discussion that's -- 22 COMMISSIONER PACES: Is there room for a 23 courtroom? 24 JUDGE KELLY: Not really. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not really. So -- 136 1 anyways, we were just looking at currently or eventually 2 or soon, I shouldn't say eventually, that sounds bad, 3 the Treasurer's Office will be empty. And that's right 4 next to the courtroom, that might be an option for 5 J.P. 3. I don't know if that space was adequate. And 6 so -- and we're just trying to figure out what the best 7 movement of office space is. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Adequate just for -- 9 isn't that bigger than what she has now? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think so. But I don't 11 know that for sure. 12 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And it has a window. 13 When you get in the basement, that's important. Two 14 windows. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyway, just an update. 16 MRS. DOWDY: If I may regarding the space 17 issue, in order to accommodate more people in my office 18 I hate to ask Jenna to maybe -- or push her that way, 19 down that way because we could expand my office into 20 that area because her office butts up with mine, if we 21 needed to make more room. So I'm just throwing that out 22 there. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER PACES: Explore the options and 25 report back. 137 1 JUDGE KELLY: Anything else for the morning 2 session? So we will stand in recess until 1:00 o'clock. 3 (Recess.) 4 JUDGE KELLY: Let me go ahead and call -- 5 Court will officially come back to order. It is 1:08. 6 I'm going to call both agenda items at the same time and 7 we'll do them consecutively. 8 First one is item is 1.28 consider, discuss 9 and take appropriate action to rescind the 10 Commissioners' Court Order No. 40154, adopted August 14, 11 2023 and the adoption of the Hart Verity System Version 12 2.4 Scanner, Controller, Touch Access With DRE and Count 13 Tabulation computer for tabulation of votes for the 14 November Constitutional Amendment Election, and instead 15 adopt the use of the Texas Election Code Chapter 65 hand 16 count ballot tabulation method for this November 17 Constitutional Amendment Election on a trial basis. 18 Item 1.29 is consider, discuss and take 19 appropriate action to approve and authorize use of the 20 current voting system. 21 Those are the two items before the Court. 22 This one is a -- and so while they're gathering the 23 ballots downstairs and they'll bring them up, there will 24 be a little bit -- a couple of interruptions here but -- 25 COMMISSIONER PACES: Okay. Well, I'll 138 1 officially go -- make a motion. I guess since nobody 2 will second it, game over. 3 JUDGE KELLY: All right. Before we start a 4 discussion we've gotta have a motion and a second. 5 COMMISSIONER PACES: All right. Well, my 6 motion is to rescind the Commissioners' Court Order No. 7 40154, adopted August 14, 2023 and the adoption of the 8 Hart Verity System Version 2.4 Scanner, Controller, 9 Touch Access with DRE and Count Tabulation computer for 10 tabulation of votes for the November Constitutional 11 Amendment Election, and instead adopt the use of the 12 Texas Election Code Chapter 65 hand count ballot 13 tabulation method for the November Constitutional 14 Amendment Election on a trial basis, and move to use 15 only hand-marked paper ballots sequentially numbered and 16 signed by an election judge, except for the ADA voting 17 devices that print paper ballots and use only paper poll 18 books for each voting precinct printed 30 days prior to 19 the election. That's my motion. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Is there a second? 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I don't think we can do 22 that. I don't think there's enough time to change the 23 voting system in between now and the November election. 24 So I don't think we can do it. Legally. Can anybody 25 answer that question for us? 139 1 MRS. STEBBINS: I think you're right. I 2 think you're right. 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So Mr. Reeves, you 4 would have more knowledge of that than any of us 5 probably. Is that enough time to do that? Is that 6 legal to change it at this -- this late date? 7 MR. REEVES: I can't speak on the legality. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. 9 MR. REEVES: I've deferred the question to 10 Miss Stebbins. Because I did have a question of that. 11 The election was supposed to have been called in August, 12 and that's when we brought -- 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 14 MR. REEVES: -- the election order to you. 15 It was like the week prior to it's supposed to be the 16 deadline to be called. As far as bringing it back up, 17 I'll have to defer that question to Miss Stebbins. It's 18 a legal -- 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So then, Miss Stebbins, 20 we have a certain amount of time before an election to 21 do -- 22 MRS. STEBBINS: That's right. 23 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- postings and so on 24 so. 25 MRS. STEBBINS: Yes, that's right. You 140 1 have -- I don't think you have enough time to change how 2 you're going to count for the November Constitutional 3 Election. 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: And that's not just a 5 matter of the logistics of it; it's a matter of legally 6 posting and letting everybody know what's -- 7 MRS. STEBBINS: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: -- happening and so on. 9 MRS. STEBBINS: Yes. And you adopted the 10 order August 21st that -- or that ordered the election. 11 COMMISSIONER PACES: It's the 14th. 12 MRS. STEBBINS: August 14th. 13 COMMISSIONER PACES: I came prepared. All 14 right? 15 MRS. STEBBINS: But there's not -- so 16 there's not a second for that. So -- 17 COMMISSIONER PACES: Let me modify my motion 18 and see if I can get a second, if you don't mind. 19 MRS. STEBBINS: So you withdraw your other 20 motion? 21 COMMISSIONER PACES: I withdraw my original 22 motion and I'll modify it with this motion. Same agenda 23 item. Use only hand-marked paper ballots sequentially 24 numbered and signed by an Election Judge, except for the 25 ADA voting devices that print paper ballots and use only 141 1 paper poll books for each voting precinct, printed 30 2 days prior to the election for the November 3 Constitutional Amendment Election, utilize the Hart 4 Verity System Version 2.4 Scanner and Count Tabulation 5 computer for the tabulation of votes and conduct an 6 audit of the tabulation by hand counting for randomly 7 selected voting precincts using the Texas Election Code 8 Chapter 65 hand-count method the day after. 9 JUDGE KELLY: So we have a motion. Is there 10 a second? 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, I want to 12 understand it. 13 COMMISSIONER PACES: Yeah. So basically I'm 14 saying we'll go ahead with the election as it's been 15 ordered. You're going to use the equipment to tabulate, 16 which seems to be the biggest concern that people have, 17 and then before it's scanned and it's declared official, 18 we'll do a hand count of a select -- randomly selected 19 four precincts. 20 JUDGE KELLY: It's going to be like a -- 21 like we do an official recount now. 22 COMMISSIONER PACES: Yeah. 23 MRS. STEBBINS: But it's not -- but Chapter 24 65 hand count ballot tabulation like the agenda has 25 posted? 142 1 COMMISSIONER PACES: I'm sorry. Say that 2 again? 3 MRS. STEBBINS: So you read that and I'm not 4 looking at it, but I'm looking at our agenda, which -- 5 which is what you're asking the Court to consider, 6 rescinding their order adopting the Hart Verity 7 System -- 8 COMMISSIONER PACES: Okay. But I'm -- 9 I'm -- 10 MRS. STEBBINS: -- and instead of adopting 11 Election Code Chapter 65 hand count ballot tabulation 12 method for the November Constitutional Amendment 13 Election. Is that the motion -- the second motion that 14 you just made? 15 COMMISSIONER PACES: My motion no longer 16 requires the Court to rescind the adoption of the Hart 17 Verity System. I'm just trying to make a motion that we 18 only use it to tabulate ballots. 19 MRS. STEBBINS: Is that -- 20 COMMISSIONER PACES: And if we have -- 21 MRS. STEBBINS: -- the Chapter 65 hand 22 count? 23 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, the hand count 24 comes in with how you do the audit of it the day after. 25 You'll -- you'll -- 143 1 MRS. STEBBINS: So I'm mincing words a 2 little bit here but the agenda item says to rescind an 3 order and then adopt the Chapter 65 hand count. And if 4 the motion that you just made doesn't include those 5 things, I don't think that the Court can take action on 6 it today. 7 COMMISSIONER PACES: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Well, he can -- 9 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, that motion -- 10 can't I modify his motion to -- no? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, Commissioner, 12 the issue is when you have a very specific agenda item, 13 there's no -- 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Not much wiggle room. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's no wiggle room. 16 JUDGE KELLY: There's no wiggle room in 17 there. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: None. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Everybody submitted their 20 requested motion -- agenda item. 21 COMMISSIONER PACES: Well, then let's pass 22 on it until the next court and I'll come up with a more 23 specific motion that just deals with we're going to use 24 the equipment to tabulate. That's the main question. 25 But this is a great opportunity to at least try a hand 144 1 count. And I'll propose that next time. If you guys 2 still don't want to do it, fine. 3 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So -- 4 COMMISSIONER PACES: I mean nothing would be 5 affected in terms of the ability to complete the 6 election. If you're going to use the equipment to 7 tabulate anyway. We've already ordered paper ballots. 8 We have the ability to print additional paper ballots if 9 we need to. It's going to be a very low turnout 10 election, I would expect. And again, all I'm asking is 11 as long as we use -- well, hand marked paper ballots -- 12 JUDGE KELLY: Let's deal with today's issue 13 first. Okay. That's a future issue. 14 COMMISSIONER PACES: Okay. 15 JUDGE KELLY: I got it. I understand that. 16 But today's issue is, we have two items on the agenda. 17 The first item is 128, that's your motion. And that has 18 failed for the lack of a second. Okay. 19 A lot of people have come down here to talk 20 to this Court. And we respect that. And we appreciate 21 that. 22 So we still have the second agenda item, be 23 called, and we have pros and cons. And I'm sure those 24 of you that would have spoken for the 128 that is not 25 before the Court at this point, will probably speak 145 1 against 129. But it is important for the dialogue, the 2 public dialogue, to be shared with the decision-makers. 3 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: That's right. 4 COMMISSIONER PACES: But the only problem is 5 you've already adopted all that in the August 14th -- 6 COMMISSIONER BELEW: In August, yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER PACES: -- meeting. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that you are -- 9 there is no need for 1.29; however, I agree with the 10 Judge that by make -- by putting -- making a motion we 11 can hear from the public. 12 JUDGE KELLY: This is a pivotal and critical 13 issue for this community. And I want to hear from the 14 people. I do. I may not agree with you. But I want to 15 hear from you, whether we agree or not. 16 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Okay. If it takes 17 that, 128, his motion, original motion to get a second, 18 I'll second it so we can hear from the people. 19 COMMISSIONER BELEW: That's all that's going 20 to happen because we can't actually do anything with it. 21 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER BELEW: So everybody understand 23 that? Because of the way it's worded and because of the 24 amount of time we have to work with, we can't do the 25 hand count in November even if everybody wanted to. But 146 1 we can discuss it if there's a second. 2 MRS. DOWDY: Did we have a motion and -- 3 what is the motion? 4 COMMISSIONER BELEW: If you go back to your 5 original motion you can -- 6 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Order. Order. Order. 7 Too many people talking at one time. 8 Now, you finish. 9 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Okay. If -- if 10 Commissioner Paces goes back to his original motion, and 11 it's seconded by Commissioner Harris or one of us, then 12 we can discuss it and talk about the points of it. 13 There's really not anything we can do about it in 14 November. So it wouldn't change what's going to happen 15 in November anyway. Is that clear? 16 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I just want people to 17 be able to speak. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I get it. 19 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: A lot of people have 20 showed up here and I want to hear both sides. 21 JUDGE KELLY: And I think probably even 22 though it may not be technically necessary to vote on 23 129, if we do vote on it, if we call that and you make a 24 motion and we vote on it, we've got a decision made for 25 today. 147 1 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. He can still 2 bring it back. 3 JUDGE KELLY: But we can still hear from all 4 the people as to what they think about this. 5 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Right. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Which I think -- I think we 7 owe you and I think we owe ourselves to hear that. So 8 128 has failed for lack of a second unless you -- unless 9 you want me to recall it. 10 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Whatever we need to do 11 to hear from these people. 12 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I want to hear from the 13 people so let's call -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the 129, I'll make a 15 motion that we continue -- or authorize the use of the 16 current voting system Hart Verity. 17 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Second. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. We've got a motion and 19 a second to continue the election -- this upcoming 20 election the same way we've been doing it in the past, 21 as presented. Any discussion? Okay. 22 This is where we take place on the 23 discussion. At the end of the discussion we will take a 24 vote. We're not going to take a vote before you get a 25 chance to talk. Okay. 148 1 So with that, I got a whole lot of stacks up 2 here. I think this stack said that it is for 129, 3 against 128. Okay. Might as well. And for those of 4 you that do not know, our J.P. from Precinct 4 -- let me 5 introduce Bill Ragsdale, who is providing input only. 6 JUDGE RAGSDALE: Where should I -- 7 JUDGE KELLY: Podium. Everybody has to go to 8 the podium. 9 JUDGE RAGSDALE: Okay. I wasn't sure. 10 My name is Bill Ragsdale. I'm Justice of 11 the Peace Precinct 4 for Kerr County. I have been a 12 resident on and off, an employee for 40 years here. I 13 was a Deputy Sheriff here in the 80's and I assisted 14 when Pat Dye was the County Clerk. 15 Some of my duties included fetching ballot 16 boxes. Okay. I can tell you several things from 17 experience. This is -- you figure out what you're going 18 to do. The votes will be counted one way or another. 19 Okay. 20 But I can recall with distinction Kerr 21 County held up the entire State's election for three 22 days one election cycle because they were hand counting. 23 Literally we were with, I think, either two or three 24 other counties in Texas, literally held up the entire 25 State's election and, in essence, some of the electoral 149 1 votes for the presidential election. That's -- that's 2 one thing. 3 And it relies on the efficiency of how 4 you're going to do it. It relies on one counter and up 5 to 40 or 50 recorders. And it relies -- it did in those 6 days at any rate, I mean I watched it. We can agree or 7 disagree and that's okay. There's plenty of room 8 obviously in here for either side. 9 But it -- they worked all night long, 10 through the next day, and through the next day to try to 11 count all the votes. Now, how accurate that count was, 12 I don't know. We're all ready for it to be over. Okay. 13 It does rely on the honesty of the person who's calling 14 out. It relies on the honesty of the people who are 15 scratching the numbers down. 16 I also lived through an election in Ingram 17 which we -- anyway, that was a mayoral election where 18 there were only 300 votes cast. Okay. There was -- 19 and there was one vote difference between the two 20 candidates. They recounted it three times and came up 21 with three different results. Okay. It just -- it 22 relies on the accuracy of the person who's calling. And 23 they finally -- I think they called the Secretary of 24 State and said what do we do, and the Secretary of State 25 said quit counting. Okay. 150 1 I also recognize that there is the 2 possibility of the machine -- any machine being 3 inaccurate. I think it's -- it's probably less than I 4 think by hand counting but I -- that's an opinion that 5 I'm -- I don't base science on at all. 6 Commissioner Paces and I spoke a little bit 7 before the meeting, and I -- I -- I, quite frankly, 8 respect your concern over the integrity of elections. I 9 think anybody -- and there's several of us in here who 10 are officeholders. You went through an ordeal. His 11 election had to be recounted by hand three times and -- 12 and came up with two different results. 13 JUDGE KELLY: You've exceeded your time so 14 wrap it up. 15 JUDGE RAGSDALE: Thank you. Anyway, 16 Council, bless you. I hope y'all come up with some good 17 discussion. I'm going back to Court. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Thank you, Bill. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thanks, Bill. 20 JUDGE KELLY: I have eight on both sides. 21 COMMISSIONER PACES: What? 22 JUDGE KELLY: That's what I've got. 23 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Don't count them 24 again. 25 (Laughter.) 151 1 VOICE: You going to count them by hand? 2 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Then I think probably 3 the best way to proceed since this is all on 129 is how 4 we get the discussion. Those that are speaking in favor 5 of 129 will take turns. They'll go one against another 6 one and we'll go back and forth. And so as I look down 7 here, the first one on supporting of 129 is Greg 8 Shrader. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're going to go 10 through all of them? 11 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah. We might as well. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Yeah, let's do it. 13 JUDGE KELLY: I'm not sending anybody home. 14 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: No. 15 MR. SHRADER: Thank you, Judge Kelly, thank 16 you, Commissioners for allowing me to address the Court 17 on voting in Kerr County. I've been around Kerr County 18 for almost 30 years. And although I believe that there 19 were many voting irregularities in the 2020 election, I 20 don't think there were any here in Kerr County. And 21 that's why Kerr County officials have established a 22 secure method of voting and also a secure method of 23 counting using technology to expeditiously tabulate 24 those ballots and eliminate human influence or error. 25 Think about all the way voter fraud occurs. 152 1 Both in registrations, ballot harvesting, fake 2 registration, ballot stuffing. All that happens before 3 the votes are counted. The machine doesn't make a 4 mistake when it counts votes. 5 In Maricopa County a lot of people think 6 there was a lot of voter fraud out there and there may 7 have been in the 2020 presidential election, but after 8 all the votes were counted by the machines, they went 9 ahead and did a recount and the recount came up with the 10 same results that the machine count did. So there might 11 have been voter fraud but it was before the ballots were 12 counted. If the ballot's clearly marked, machines 13 don't make mistakes. 14 I've participated in the last City of 15 Kerrville hand recount. It was a tedious process. The 16 counters at my table were confused oftentimes. We had 17 to start and stop multiple times. It did not alter the 18 outcome of the elections, it only opened the door for 19 more chain of custody issues and human error. 20 Interjecting more human influence in counting of ballots 21 is a recipe for controversy. 22 Who of us here remembers 2000 and what 23 happened in Florida? Do we want to go back there where 24 humans basically kept counting and counting and counting 25 and counting until they got the results and finally the 153 1 Supreme Court had to decide who won that election? Not 2 me. I want secure voting with a machine to count 3 accurately. 4 LBJ won the 1940 Democratic Primary in Box 5 13 when Wells County came in six days after the election 6 was over. People hand counted those ballots, even 7 though they were all written in the same hand and they 8 were in alphabetical order on the voter roll. Human 9 error allowed that fraud to happen. We don't want it to 10 happen again. 11 Let's please not move backward when it comes 12 to election integrity in Kerr County. Thank you. 13 (Applause). 14 JUDGE KELLY: No, no. No applause. This is 15 a debate. 16 MR. SHRADER: Okay. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Roger Hall. He's 18 downstairs, isn't he? 19 VOICE: Yes. 20 JUDGE KELLY: I'll put him next. Joe 21 Rexach. He's downstairs? Dawn Kuidera. Nikki Caines. 22 Good. 23 MS. CAINES: I'm Nikki Caines. 24 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Do you want to call 25 some other names so those can start coming up on the 154 1 other side. 2 JUDGE KELLY: Yeah, the next one is going to 3 be Paul Zohlen. I see him here. 4 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Okay. 5 JUDGE KELLY: And after Nikki will be Dawn 6 Kuidera. Downstairs. 7 MS. CAINES: Good afternoon. I'm Nikki 8 Caines, I live here. For me, it all began in the spring 9 when I went up to the Capitol and watched a five-hour 10 personal presentation that was sponsored by Senator 11 Hall, one of many senators. And what I learned was that 12 the machines that we use, and that includes Hart 13 InterCivic, it is not 100 percent reliable. 14 Whereas, each of us in here, whether those 15 on the Commissioners' Court or those of us who have 16 worked elections, we all take an oath. A machine cannot 17 take an oath. And if there's something inside the 18 machine that alters the tabulation or the recording on 19 the E-poll book, which is what I believed happened in my 20 personal case, I would rather put my hand in the hands 21 of my -- my neighbors. 22 If we are to believe that Chapter 65 is 23 okay, I don't understand why if we worked side by side 24 on both sides of the spectrum, if we work side by side 25 already with the machines, why can we not work side by 155 1 side hand counting? I've seen the demonstrations and 2 I've seen one caller and three tabulators, and all three 3 tabulators, counters, came up with the same number. The 4 problem might come in with the counters. So if you have 5 a watcher who's watching the counters there should be no 6 problem. 7 We had over 400 people sign up to hand count 8 and we're encouraging more of our neighbors to do the 9 same. If we're going to keep money locally, if we want 10 to cut down on the budget, I do believe there are stats 11 that reflect that if we're paying our hand counters, the 12 money is staying here locally. That means the money 13 that -- that our voter clerks who would count, the money 14 that they earn they will spend it here and it will go 15 back into the County coffers. 16 I would like to see if it's not done in 17 November, I would like to see it done in the future as 18 soon as possible. Thank you. 19 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. Paul Zohlen. 20 MR. ZOHLEN: Thank you for allowing me to 21 speak today. Kerr County Election Department arguably 22 has the most professional and competent and efficient 23 organization in the State of Texas. I am intimately 24 involved, have been for years, with the election process 25 and I speak with conviction that that is the case. 156 1 I want to go back to 2016. I was the vice 2 chair of the Military Order of World Wars. Our 3 membership had concerns about election integrity. And I 4 arranged for Nadene Alford from the Election Department 5 to come and address the membership. 6 She and I were sitting at the head table 7 and I said, Okay Nadene, tell me, I want to throw the 8 election. How are we going to do that? The room went 9 silent and I thought well, perhaps I should have phrased 10 my question a little bit differently. 11 Ultimately, that is why we are here today, 12 to determine whether or not the current system can 13 provide us a fair and secure election. 14 So the issues. Let's look at the paper 15 ballots. Senator Hall, in his presentation, suggested 16 three things to secure the paper side of the election. 17 One, a special paper so that I can't go down to Office 18 Max and get a couple of reams and run them through the 19 scanner. We have that. 20 Two, serialized ballots. Each ballot that 21 an Election Judge receives is individually serialized. 22 And when that Election Judge signs for those ballots, he 23 is signing for a particular series of numbers. Now why 24 is that important? Because at the end of the day, he is 25 responsible -- or she -- for returning those ballots, 157 1 signature -- or serial number by serial number back to 2 the Election Department for full accountability. Our 3 election scanners will not scan the same serial number 4 twice. So then if I steal a ballot, somehow get the 5 special paper and run off a bunch of copies, I can't 6 start feeding those into the scanner. It's simply not 7 going to work. 8 The third thing that Senator Hall suggested 9 was that we signature -- that we sign each ballot. This 10 is required. We do that. We either hand sign or we 11 signature stamp the ballots. Well, okay. Issues with 12 the signature stamp. Well, you're going to have to 13 steal my stamp, forge my signature, and get another 14 stamp that will match mine. 15 Come on. Hope that's not my timing. 16 JUDGE KELLY: That is your time. 17 MR. ZOHLEN: We're only halfway there. 18 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Just getting worked up. 19 MR. ZOHLEN: Thank you. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. Roger Hall. 21 MR. HALL: Roger Hall. I live at 118 22 Independence Lane in Ingram. I am speaking for 128 and 23 against 129. Really, I just want to touch on the fact 24 that, you know, it's been touched on already. The 25 entire process does need to be cleaned up. I'm not in 158 1 disagreement there. The registration, the voter rolls 2 of all the dead are moved on people, ballot harvesting, 3 all those things. Early elections. We need to condense 4 that. We need to go to maybe calling Election Day a 5 holiday. You know, all those ideas are things we 6 definitely need to consider. 7 But what we're talking about now is do we 8 trust these black box components that are within these 9 systems like Hart InterCivic? I, for one, do not. I'm 10 in the tech sector. I know, and the gentleman that 11 spoke at the Town Hall, showed clearly how these things 12 can be compromised very easily. And you don't need a 13 lot of equipment, you don't need a lot of know-how to do 14 it. And so why are we willing to wait until there's a 15 problem to fix it? Let's be proactive. Let's be 16 proactive and fix this now. 17 I'm not opposed to truly dumb counting 18 machines that count paper ballots. I'm not opposed to 19 that. Let's look at that. But this election is a 20 perfect example of a time to take a step aside. I don't 21 call it going back. But it's taking a step aside from 22 the current process that is very vulnerable to being 23 hacked, and look at a hand counting involved method. If 24 it's an audit process after the fact, let's talk about 25 it. But we need to come into this with clarity and 159 1 thinking it all through and really restore the trust. 2 There is no trust a hundred percent of the 3 time, and there's not even a majority trust right now in 4 our current system. And we need to fix that. And that's 5 what all this, a lot of people here today are here for, 6 is we need to restore trust. And it starts at the local 7 level. 8 Everything we do, I'm involved in a group, 9 Liberty In Action. Everything we do is involved in 10 being active in our processes. We want people to do 11 that. We want them to be involved in the hand counting 12 process. We need people involved. And if we're going 13 to save our system of government we have and the society 14 we have, more people need to be involved on all fronts. 15 So I don't think anybody would disagree with that in 16 this room. So thank you. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. Stephanie Ertel. 18 Am I saying your last name right? 19 MS. ERTEL: Yeah. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. I want to make sure. 21 MS. ERTEL: My name is Stephanie Ertel, I 22 live in Mountain Home. I'm a fourth generation Kerr 23 County family and a family that has been involved in 24 civic activities for decades. And I carry on that and 25 active in -- as a poll worker, as an Election Judge, as 160 1 an Associate Judge, and as a -- just a regular clerk, 2 and I have seen the hard work of people who really have 3 devoted themselves, you know, cycle after cycle in 4 making our voting system work. 5 And it concerns me to see that this is -- 6 people are criticizing our long-term dedicated election 7 officers and that -- there isn't any basis for that. 8 There isn't any claim that anything has been done 9 improperly and there certainly isn't any complaint about 10 the outcomes to the people that are sitting on 11 Commissioners' Court and were all elected through this 12 process. 13 So I think we need to continue and really 14 focus on those things that -- where people feel more 15 welcome to vote, where it's easier, where they have good 16 information, and so that we can feel confident that 17 everyone in Kerr County who's eligible to vote is 18 getting the chance to vote the way -- and with good 19 information. Thank you. 20 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you, Ms. Ertel. 21 Joe Rexach. Am I saying that right? 22 MR. REXACH: Good afternoon. I'm Joe 23 Rexach, Center Point. I'm speaking not against these 24 voting machines mainly because, you know, when I walk 25 in, when I fill out my ballot, my paper ballot, and I 161 1 slide it into that machine, I have to trust that that 2 machine now has taken the information that I put down to 3 vote and transferred it exactly like I intended it on my 4 sheet. Well, that's been now separated. It's totally 5 separate. And when there's a recount, my understanding 6 is that recount, if it counts that way, that's machine 7 counted. 8 It'll go back and machines are perfect, 9 right? The only way to test the machine is by doing a 10 hand count. And to say, you know, human error or -- of 11 course, well these machines just -- who made them? 12 Human error. And so they -- they do make mistakes. We 13 all know that. We've talked about hanging chads in the 14 days -- we know about that. That can be fixed. It was 15 fixed by doing a little bubble and you fill it in. And 16 the hanging chad is gone. If there's an error, you go 17 back. It's still the bubble filled in. So it's -- so 18 you go, it took us too long. My question is was it 19 accurate? That's what we're asking, is it accurate? 20 And yeah. Took a little longer. Made a couple 21 mistakes, but it was accurate. 22 So that's -- that's what I'm looking at 23 through this, is the further we get down the road, it 24 begins -- and I do this with all due respect, but it 25 begins to look like our budget program, where it's just 162 1 so complicated we can't fix it. Well, we're at a point 2 where we can't. Let's just do both. Let's do the hand 3 count and the machines, let's do it in advance. We're 4 going to do an audit in advance. 5 I mean, however you want to look at it. 6 It's pretty simple. I don't know why anybody would be 7 against it. I really don't. It proves to those that 8 want the machines that the machines are accurate. We'll 9 prove they're accurate and we'll do a hand count and by 10 golly you were right. Or maybe they weren't. And if 11 so, then we need to look at that. 12 So we're willing to do it. I mean, it's 13 just work. I mean, how does an Amish move a barn, 14 right? A lot of people pick it up and they move it. 15 They don't go to a computer program and -- I mean, it 16 might be months. It might get back -- you know, they're 17 going to have problems. They'll do that. They just get 18 their neighbors together, which is what we're talking 19 about doing, and going down and doing a hand count. 20 We're talking about this as if, you know, we're -- we're 21 staging some kind of a, you know, something that is, 22 boy, you know, we don't want to -- this is a -- this is 23 a touchy thing. It isn't. 24 So we're going to -- we're on the same side. 25 Let's prove the machines are accurate. Okay. And if 163 1 that's where you feel, then you're -- if that's what you 2 feel then you're going to see that -- 3 (Timer buzzing.) 4 MR. REXACH: -- or we're not. But our 5 elections are going to be trustworthy. Thank you. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. Kenneth Hammond. 7 Is he downstairs? 8 SHERIFF LEITHA: What's the name, Judge? 9 JUDGE KELLY: Kenneth Hammond. 10 SHERIFF LEITHA: Kenneth Hammond. He's 11 going to pass his time to someone else, Judge. 12 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Then I think we've got 13 Tom Caughen, but he's deaf so his wife, Lisa Caughen -- 14 SHERIFF LEITHA: They're right here. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Ms. Hammond (sic), do you have 16 time? 17 MR. CAUGHEN: Now look, I'm totally deaf 18 so -- 19 JUDGE KELLY: I know. 20 SHERIFF LEITHA: She's going to speak for 21 him. 22 MRS. CAUGHEN: This is my husband Tom 23 Caughen. Ken Hammond is downstairs. He's with me. 24 We're giving our five minutes to him so that he can -- 25 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. State your name. 164 1 MR. CAUGHEN: I think I'm supposed to state 2 my name and address, which is Tom Caughen, and it's 3 C-A-U-G-H-E-N. Obviously, you can tell that I speak 4 pretty loud so y'all oughta be able to hear me. But I 5 am totally deaf. So I've watched all of y'all for the 6 last three or four months. Sorry, I'm used to speaking 7 loud. I've watched y'all now for the last three to six 8 months going back and forth in the papers. 9 Now, I can understand all of y'all's concern 10 about the election. I've done them for eight years. I 11 got more experience than anybody in this courthouse. 12 Bob's done them for five. I watched how they work. 13 I've used the machines, I used the scantron. 14 We went to the new machines, they were 15 totally a whole lot better. Instead of getting out of 16 courthouse at daylight, I got out of courthouse about 17 10:30 or 11:00. As far as accuracy, let me tell ya 18 something. They were very accurate, 'cuz we had to have 19 hand count. Because some of the precincts were closed. 20 And once they did the precinct count, they'd find out 21 that our machine, which I'm not saying anything about 22 people hand counting, but it's kinda hit and miss 23 sometime. But the machines we had were very, very 24 accurate. 25 Now, I've been watching a lot about this 165 1 Chicken Little and all these acorns falling on his head 2 about how hand counting is it. You can't hand count an 3 election and have any -- especially next year. Yeah, 4 you can hand count. 5 Commissioners, Judge, I can understand 6 y'all's concern. I was concerned, too. Because in 7 2001, the Commissioners and the Judge dumped elections 8 on the Tax Assessor in Walter County. If you don't know 9 where Walter County is, that's where y'all send all 10 y'alls wonderful inmates. We didn't let them vote 11 either. The County and the citizens wouldn't let them 12 vote. 13 Now, the next thing since the Commissioners 14 trusted me, I don't know whether they were trying to 15 stump me up. Since I was the first Republican ever 16 elected in Walter County as a tax assessor, I -- I 17 wanted to know because I watched LBJ cheat an election. 18 My daddy told me all about it. He was the former 19 Sheriff of Walter County. So I know it can be done. I 20 know what your concern is. 21 So I said hey, I talked to my election 22 administrator, the lady that was under me, the voter 23 lady, and I said how can we cheat at an election? 24 Here's the Tax Assessor and election administrator wants 25 to know. Let me tell you something. It is very, very 166 1 difficult. Number one, you're going to have to get the 2 Republicans and the Democrats to go along with it at the 3 precinct. Then the line of command comes up there with 4 the votes. Then you're going to have to get the 5 election administrator, the tax assessor or the County 6 Clerk to lie. And then you're going to have to get -- 7 the next thing you're going to have get is the lady that 8 plugs in the computer stuff. 9 We've got about six to eight people that 10 y'all are going to convince to lie about an election. 11 It ain't going to happen. The State figured it out. 12 They figured out the checks and balances for when it 13 comes into the Precinct. You have both judges -- 14 (Timer buzzing.) 15 MR. CAUGHEN: -- yeah, they do have both of 16 them there. 17 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: He's got more. 18 MRS. CAUGHEN: He's got more time? 19 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: That's halftime. 20 MR. CAUGHEN: You have both election judges 21 there. And yes, I was concerned about cheating, too, 22 because the mail-in ballots worried me. But the mail-in 23 ballots went into a separate box, and we had our ballot 24 board that night. We checked them, made sure that they 25 were registered, that they had signed up. You gotta 167 1 remember, we're in Huntsville. We got a lot of people 2 come by wanting to vote because it's a college town. 3 The next thing y'all got to understand, too, is that 4 yes, if you were in Harris County, I can guarantee you, 5 you'd probably need to do a hand count. Of course, it'd 6 take you about a year cuz Harris County is just 7 basically like Chicago, New York, and LA and the rest of 8 the things. And Georgia and a few of the other ones, 9 yes. 10 The State of Texas has checks and balances 11 in voting. Now, I don't get out and do this much. 12 Don't care anything about public speaking. But I will 13 tell y'all one thing, when it comes to election, the 14 machines were very, very accurate. 15 Judge Ragsdale just had an election in 16 Ingram last -- last year, I guess, last November. I'm 17 sure they had to do hand count and I guess they did 18 machine. Y'all -- I think he talked to y'all about it. 19 I missed most of every conversation. You never know 20 with hand counting. 21 Now, I'm like one of the commissioners. I 22 was wondering how it worked out, too. When you have a 23 close race, they requested it. Usually our machines 24 were much better than the hand count. And I understand 25 people being concerned about the -- I've seen it. The 168 1 last few years. Since I'm retired now and all this -- 2 don't care about being in office. I've watched the way 3 they have cheated at elections. But it's a free for all 4 in those states. They let them mail in and do any kind 5 of ballot thing they want. It's not in Texas. Texas is 6 very concerned. 7 I get the -- LBJ did such a good job getting 8 in office back when he got senator. I guess after that 9 they finally cleaned up the bed. 10 Now, when I was in office, I was telling -- 11 I was going to tell let the dead Republicans vote again. 12 They all laughed. They said I shouldn't be saying that. 13 Well, I told them. The DA got after me one time, you 14 can't say that. I tell him, why not? The dead 15 Democrats been voting for years. But it's very hard to 16 get people to vote. Even if people trust me. Because 17 you have to have too many people involved in the 18 process. How you going to get a Democrat and a 19 Republican together and tell them oh yeah. Thanks. 20 (Timer buzzing.) 21 MRS. HAMMOND: He's supposed to get my time 22 also. I'm Tina Hammond and he can have mine. 23 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: You want to give him 24 one more? 25 MRS. HAMMOND: Yeah, you get one more. 169 1 MR. CAUGHEN: Okay. I just wanted to make 2 clear that y'all understand. I didn't cheat in the 3 election. Make that clear. But I want to see if it was 4 possible to cheat. It's very -- you have to have too 5 many people involved. I'm sorry. And in a hand 6 count -- after y'all do a machine count, do a hand count 7 and count -- and especially the coming up election, 8 you'll see that it's almost identical to the T. Thank 9 y'all. And I appreciate the time. 10 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Lisa, tell him he was 12 refreshing. I'm glad y'all came out. 13 MRS. CAUGHEN: Look what I gotta deal with 14 at home. 15 JUDGE KELLY: Dawn Kuidera. 16 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Hard act to follow. 17 JUDGE KELLY: Dawn Kuidera. 18 (Pause.) 19 JUDGE KELLY: I had her in here twice. Greg 20 Rising. 21 MRS. RISING: He had to step out. 22 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: He had to leave? 23 MRS. RISING: Yeah. 24 JUDGE KELLY: And then I got Joe Rexach and 25 Roger Hall again. That's all I got in that stack. 170 1 Anyone else? I've double-checked them. So Stan 2 Kubenka. 3 MR. KUBENKA: My name is Stan Kubenka and I 4 live at 219 West Creek Road in Kerrville, Texas. I have 5 been an election officer in Kerr County for at least 30 6 years. I think it's wonderful that we're having this 7 election integrity interest because you usually don't 8 get this type of deal. 9 But I do agree with Bob Hall. I went to his 10 presentation. And I agree with him that it's not going 11 to be machines, it's not going to be the hand counting, 12 it's not going to be paper ballots, it's going to be 13 people. It's the people. Always remember, it's the 14 people. People that run the elections. 15 So with that, I just know some of the 16 machines we have when you scan that ballot, if you 17 haven't voted on the backside, it'll spit it out. It'll 18 say hey, you didn't vote and one of us will have to go 19 over there and help them. We have a lot of seniors that 20 will mark on the ballots and it will spit that out. So 21 right off the bat these machines give you voter 22 assistance that you would not get in hand counting. 23 And I think also what Bob Hall is saying, 24 and I think this is a State thing, we need to -- we get 25 this fixed at the State level. I think all this energy 171 1 for this hand counting should be tossed away and let's 2 get the machines fixed. Because there are problems. 3 Some of these things are using XP 13 still or whatever 4 it is that's Microsoft. 5 So again, I'd like to just say that I've 6 enjoyed working with Bob Reeves and his staff. They 7 have excellent professionalism. Also, I just know what 8 volunteerism that we've had because I've been doing this 9 for 30 years, and Paul, I'm surprised you didn't mention 10 this but he has to get 90 workers. And he struggles to 11 get 90 workers, and we're 75 percent Republican. 12 And I've had to go to other precincts 13 outside of my Precinct to be a Judge because he couldn't 14 find somebody to be the Judge. That's the honor part 15 supposedly. And I'll also tell you, too. That when I 16 get these ballots, I want to know were they are. And I 17 know when they're in that machine, in that box there, 18 they're either in that machine or in my -- they're in my 19 presence. I can't see how an Election Judge could 20 handle ballots all over the place. It would make me go 21 insane. 22 So anyhow, I just wanted to say that I think 23 there's ways to fix this. But let's get ahold of our 24 State officials. And I think Bob Hall is all geared up 25 on this. So we should get our State Senator to get with 172 1 him, to get with the Secretary of State, and fix the 2 machines as best they can afford. Thank you. 3 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 4 Do we have anyone else outside that wants to 5 speak for paper ballots, hand counts? 6 SHERIFF LEITHA: Judge, I have one here for 7 paper ballots. 8 JUDGE KELLY: Two things. I need your hat 9 off. 10 SHERIFF LEITHA: Yeah, we're in the 11 courtroom. 12 JUDGE KELLY: And your name. 13 MR. BUGLER: I'm Richard Bugler and I live 14 in East Kerr County. I've been Election Judge and 15 Precinct Chair. First time I was Precinct Chair, I 16 was -- came in, we had another Election Judge. I know 17 that we -- when we do elections, our stuff comes out 18 right on the paper. But we don't know what's going on 19 in that machine. Those machines are very expensive. I 20 believe much more expensive than paper ballots. 21 When I started voting here in Kerr County, 22 were paper ballots. We always knew what the results 23 were the night of the election. Now, we go on for weeks 24 to try to figure out what the election results were. So 25 I do not see where these machines, the scanners and the 173 1 electric voting machines and all of that stuff is 2 advantageous to us. I believe we need to start looking 3 more into that. 4 The machines are not controlled by us. I 5 hear people talking about, we can't get in there and rig 6 the election. That may be true. But we don't control 7 what's in that machine. We don't control the 8 programming. All we do is get the machine, set it 9 there, and we're trained on how to use it. 10 But that paper ballot, when you put that 11 paper ballot in the machine, sure, it goes down in a 12 box. We make sure we have the right number of ballots. 13 But we don't know what the results are that are turned 14 in to that machine. 15 So I believe we need to go and use paper 16 ballots. We can count them. Nobody can rig that 17 election when you've got a team of four or five people 18 counting those ballots. And it can be transparent. 19 There's no transparency on those machines. 20 So I think we needed to go with paper 21 ballots. There will be numbered and paper that can't be 22 duplicated. So I believe that's a very, very reasonable 23 change to make. Save a lot of money doing it that way. 24 The money will stay local. It can get put back into the 25 community. So I'm for paper ballots. Thank you. 174 1 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. John Harrison. 2 MR. HARRISON: My name is John Harrison. I 3 live at 2911 Dry Hollow in Kerrville. My wife and I are 4 18-year residents of Kerrville and Kerr County. I don't 5 personally know Bob Reeves. I've certainly seen him a 6 couple times. In fact, I even shook hands today and had 7 a brief conversation with him. 8 But I do know Bob by reputation, as I know 9 many of you in this room by reputation only. Reputation 10 is built on observation as well as feedback from others. 11 Based on my observation, a well-run election and what 12 others tell me about Bob, I believe that when Bob speaks 13 we should listen. Bob Reeves, Nadene Alford, their 14 staff as well as many volunteers have helped run secure 15 and accurate elections in Kerr County for many years. 16 They deserve our respect. They run elections for our 17 school districts, cities, political parties, as well as 18 national, state, and countywide elections. 19 The people that enable these secure and 20 accurate elections deserve our support, not questioning 21 about some hypothetical issue that does not exist and is 22 not supported by any data in Kerr County. I'd like to 23 apologize for how they've been treated over the past few 24 months. 25 But really, the only apology that matters is 175 1 the one that some members of this Court, I think, needs 2 to make to Bob, his staff, and the volunteers. 3 A group of friends and I were discussing a 4 couple weeks back about how we could show support for 5 Bob. The idea of a petition was raised and I decided to 6 create one. An online petition. I'll not read the 7 complete petition, only the last sentence. We, the 8 undersigned, stand with Bob Reeves and adamantly oppose 9 Commissioner Paces efforts to substitute hand counting 10 of paper ballots for the State approved method of voting 11 system that has served Kerr County well for decades. 12 That petition was online for eight days. 13 And I've shut it down. And I've gotten a little bit of 14 grief for shutting it down early. But in that time, 641 15 Kerr County residents signed that petition. Many. 16 This past Friday each of you were e-mailed a 17 copy of that petition, the names of people that signed 18 it, and the comments that were made. I brought another 19 copy this morning for the Court. 20 I hope you show support for Bob. I hope he 21 accepts your support. And I hope he agrees to continue 22 to run elections in the state approved methods that have 23 proven to be so successful. Thank you very much. 24 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 25 I've got one more pro 129. And Commissioner 176 1 Paces did not get to make his presentation or he had 2 some comments he wanted to make. I'll allow you to go 3 ahead and close out your side. 4 COMMISSIONER PACES: And I can do that right 5 now? 6 JUDGE KELLY: Let's try to keep it the same 7 time here as them. 8 COMMISSIONER PACES: Yes, thank you. 9 Charles, could you pull that up? Go to the second 10 slide. 11 MRS. STEBBINS: Mr. Henneke had submitted 12 paperwork to speak, too. 13 JUDGE KELLY: Fred? 14 COMMISSIONER PACES: Excellent. 15 SHERIFF LEITHA: John Haley(phonetic) will 16 be speaking also. 17 JUDGE KELLY: They put down against 128 is 18 what they did. That's why -- that's the confusion. I 19 didn't call that one because 128 didn't get a second. 20 VOICE: Mary Ellen Summerlin. 21 JUDGE KELLY: I've got her. Well, they keep 22 coming in. Okay. Some of the confusion, I think I've 23 got Fred Henneke here. I'll go ahead and call him. 24 Fred. But you put -- technically what you -- the one I 25 got said against 128, that's why I didn't -- 177 1 MR. HENNEKE: Well, I did both of them, 2 which you got the second one for that. 3 My name is Fred Henneke -- 4 JUDGE KELLY: I'm not a very good clerk. 5 MR. HENNEKE: My name is Fred Henneke. I 6 live at 2595 Bandera Highway here in Kerr County, 7 Precinct 2. I'm proud to have lived in Kerr County for 8 over 32 years now. Why? Why? Fundamental question is 9 why change? Why change a system that has worked for 10 Kerr County since 2008, with no controversy. 11 You heard Judge Ragsdale talk about 12 controversy that held up the election for the whole 13 State for days. You heard Greg Shrader talk about 14 controversy and recounts. Those were all hand counted. 15 Why? What does the reason to change from a system that 16 we have used without any controversy, without any 17 complaint, without any suggestion of bad counting or 18 wrong doing or fraud or corruption, for all this time? 19 Just throw it away on a whim. 20 People say it's a machine. Well, there are 21 machines everywhere. A machine tabulates your money at 22 the bank. How many times do you go in there and count 23 your actual money? Probably not very often. There's no 24 rational reason to change. There's a lot of reasons not 25 to change. And the one that I'll put a bug in your ear 178 1 about now is ballot security. 2 Under Chapter 65, it can be agreed that 3 counting can start after ten people have voted. So 4 after ten people have voted, someone can go into one of 5 the ballot boxes, take the ballots out, and take them to 6 where they're counting. Now, that place has to be at 7 least a hundred feet from the polling place and you 8 cannot be within sound of the people calling. Who is 9 going to move the ballots? Who's going to be 10 responsible for the ballots? 11 I've been an Election Judge. Don't hand me 12 that ball. I'm working on the election; I'm not working 13 on the counting. So you know who's going to get that 14 responsibility? My good friend Sheriff Leitha, he could 15 help to have people who will take the ballots, with a 16 receipt, the numbered ballots, take them over to the 17 counting place, observe the counting, and then secure 18 the ballots. 19 It's a chain of custody issue, Judge. 20 We're both familiar with that. It's not just willy 21 nilly. So they say let's go -- hey, what are you doing 22 this afternoon, you wanna count ballots? Yeah, let's go 23 count ballots. 24 The people who count the ballots are 25 election workers. They will have to be approved by the 179 1 Court. They will have to satisfy the very minimal 2 requirements of the law. They would have to take the 3 required training. They would be paid $12.50 each an 4 hour. 5 Now, it's not just a case again of let's all 6 get together and count ballots. Furthermore, the 7 counting teams are going to have to be disinterested 8 bipartisans. So I'll leave you with these other two 9 thoughts in mind. Ballot security and the 10 bipartisanship. Thank you, gentlemen. 11 JUDGE KELLY: We have another against the 12 current system and for the hand count. Alicia Bell. 13 MS. BELL: Alicia Bell, Precinct 1. I am 14 against 1.28. You know, these machines are not 15 accurate. The scantrons are not accurate. I see work 16 as a testing clerk for the Federal Government for the 17 military entrance processing station. Testing people as 18 they are going into the military. And we had a lot of 19 problems with the scantrons. Even with that. And it's 20 only as good as the key that they put in. If they 21 choose a key with a different answer, you're going to 22 get a different result. 23 I suggest that we go to 100 percent paper 24 ballots. And that -- they can be hand counted with a 25 Chapter 65 method. There's no reason not to go with 180 1 that. We've been using it for 148 years. Hand 2 counting. And just because some people may not be 3 skilled in doing it, maybe they shouldn't be counting 4 and have a different group of people. We should have 5 enough counting teams that you're not going to be 6 counting all night. You're not going to be counting for 7 three days. Either way, it's going to be a whole lot 8 better than weeks or months, like the counting machines. 9 And besides, the electronic voting machines 10 are illegal right now. The certifications are not 11 certified. They're illegal counting -- they're illegal 12 machines right now. And you don't want to go into the 13 election using -- voting to use an illegal voting 14 method. The only legal method to count ballots right 15 now is Chapter 65. It's the only one in the state. 16 Thank you very much. 17 JUDGE KELLY: John Elliott. 18 MR. ELLIOTT: Commissioners, I'm John 19 Elliott. I'm from Hunt, Texas. And I'm speaking 20 against item 128. I was the Republican chairman from 21 2009 to 2020. And it was my experience that hand 22 counting tabulation on a large scale would open up hand 23 counting system to potential inefficiency and human 24 error. Let's not burn down the system that has worked 25 in the past for a system that is unproven and has 181 1 potential for inefficiency open to human error. And 2 that's all I have to say. Thank you for your attention. 3 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. I have one last person. 4 One lay person to call before Mr. Paces wants to make 5 his comments and that will be Mary Ellen Summerlin. 6 MS. SUMMERLIN: My name is Mary Ellen 7 Summerlin. I live at 105 Turnberry Circle here in 8 Kerrville, that's Precinct 2. It struck me today that 9 9-11 is a good time for us to be talking about this. 10 Because the only silver lining that came out of 9-11 are 11 the fact that we found out how resilient our democratic 12 system is and how reliant we are to the people on the 13 ground, the first responders. 14 In this situation, much less dramatic of 15 course, there's some similarities. We've got a system 16 that's under attack, doesn't need to throw us clear off 17 track. We've got people that we can count on, trust for 18 their integrity and their professionalism in the 19 elections department, from top to bottom. 20 And I have worked lots of elections in every 21 possible roll, and I can tell you firsthand, they are 22 fair. And I'm a Democrat. I didn't come in here 23 expecting to be treated fairly, but I have been. I've 24 seen their integrity. It's reliable. 25 Today, you guys have a chance to recognize 182 1 their everyday integrity. And to act pretty heroic 2 yourselves in taking responsibility for what is sensible 3 and logical and right. I can't know how much 4 preparation you've actually done. I know that none of 5 you came to the required local testing of our machines, 6 which is open to the public. 7 I know that none of you firsthand observed 8 that demonstration that Bob Reeves and his staff put on. 9 I don't think any of you went to Austin to InterCivic to 10 really check where the components come from, and it 11 isn't China. But I hope you've done your own analysis 12 and I hope you've paid attention to Woodward's 13 accusation that there's something wrong with the 14 certification of our machines. Hundreds of pages. 15 But what it boils down to is a very tiny 16 paperwork discrepancy he claims between signatures on 17 certificates, some hair splitting between the words 18 revoked and expired, and the idea that not the machine 19 certification is in question, but the lab that tests the 20 machines have these paperwork errors. Mighty thin, weak 21 of an argument in my opinion. He admits that when he 22 went to Court with his writs of mandamus and his quo 23 warranto, nothing has happened. The writs of mandamus 24 all dismissed, the quo warranto pending. 25 (Timer buzzing.) 183 1 MS. SUMMERLIN: Oh. 2 JUDGE KELLY: One sentence. 3 MS. SUMMERLIN: Oh, that's one minute? 4 Good. 5 JUDGE KELLY: One sentence. 6 MS. SUMMERLIN: Oh, one sentence. So most 7 of the arguments for are based on possibility. The only 8 evidence that's been -- the only fact that can be proven 9 or unproven doesn't have evidence to back it up. Stick 10 with what is tried and true. Thank you. 11 JUDGE KELLY: Thank you. 12 And before we take a vote, I'm going to give 13 Mr. Paces an opportunity. If you like, you can go to 14 the podium but you'll be seen better on YouTube from the 15 podium than you're on the bench. Better sound there, I 16 can tell you that. That's up to you. 17 COMMISSIONER PACES: It doesn't matter. 18 JUDGE KELLY: Well, I've had a lot of people 19 complain that they can't hear us but they can hear the 20 people at the podium. 21 COMMISSIONER PACES: Okay. Sorry. 22 All right. Look, I think one of the 23 important things to understand, first and foremost, I 24 too support Bob Reeves. I have never stated that there 25 was any issue or concern about Bob or anybody on his 184 1 staff; it's the system that I don't trust, the machines. 2 And I think you need to recognize I'm not alone. 3 You know, polls -- recent polls have been 4 showing that over 60 percent of eligible voters don't 5 trust our election. You know, before 2020, all kinds of 6 notable names there. Hillary Clinton. Senator Kamala 7 Harris. Lots of senators. Just all kind of people on 8 the Democrat side that express concerns about the voting 9 machines and that we shouldn't trust them. 10 And you need to understand that fear in the 11 Republican party in Kerr County, in our convention, 12 election integrity was the number one priority and it 13 was also the number one priority in the statewide 14 convention. 15 Recently, the National -- Republican 16 National Convention has issued a resolution that urges 17 the return to excellence in voting, calls on State 18 Legislatures, county and municipal governments pass laws 19 and codes, rules that allow for transparent hand 20 counting procedures, etc. 21 So you know, there is a growing awareness, 22 and we need to get back to the basics and stop trusting 23 machines. 24 Next please. 25 We recently had a town hall at the Hill 185 1 Country Youth Event Center. We had a lot of notable 2 speakers. The one thing that I really want to point out 3 here is, hey, we had 300 attendees. That's pretty darn 4 good for a town hall in the middle of the afternoon. 5 And out of those attendees, 89 new folks signed up to 6 hand count paper ballots. So right now we have over 400 7 people that have volunteered to hand count ballots. You 8 kind of have a movement. 9 So in terms of the argument that we can't 10 find people, I think we can. Dr. Dougherty, who 11 presented, you know, he -- he's not from Texas. 12 Emeritus at Texas A&M, all kinds of credentials. But 13 anyway, his presentation was -- this is a slide from it. 14 Why do the machines have to go? They're not 15 transparent. They're not accurate. They're not 16 accountable. Hardware is vulnerable. Software is 17 vulnerable. Network is vulnerable. 18 So his recommended action item -- next. 19 All right. Promote hand marked, hand 20 counted paper ballots. Get County Commissioners to 21 adopt a resolution that no voting system shall be used 22 unless it contains no remote access capability. It's 23 been certified by the EAC. And that the VFCO 24 certificate of accreditation has been signed by the EAC 25 chairman within two years prior to the election. And 186 1 that's one key issue. That's not available. 2 I just want to point out that we have been 3 talking about election integrity for quite some time. 4 Back in April, this court issued a Resolution supporting 5 the State Legislature for accurate, transparent, and 6 audible elections. 7 And then I'll just point out that, you know, 8 some of the keys that are actually within our control 9 were endorsed by at least four members of the Court. 10 The first one is hand marked sequentially numbered paper 11 ballots, preprinted on counterfeit resistant paper and 12 signed by an Election Judge. Paper poll books verifying 13 vote results with random hand counts and robust audits. 14 And then, of course, the other one that's important is 15 cleaning and securing voter roles. That's it. 16 And this is just -- this slide just kind of 17 illustrates what is within the control of the 18 Commissioners' Court, and certainly the adoption of any 19 voting system used in a general election is key. The 20 decision on whether we use hand marked paper ballots 21 versus a touch screen electronic devices, that decision 22 rests with this court. This isn't a hand count versus a 23 tabulating ballot, this decision rests with the Court. 24 And the decision to print hard copies of the poll books 25 also resides with the Court. 187 1 Next. 2 So hand counting. It's been used to 3 tabulate votes in Texas for many decades. Hey, come on. 4 All kind of countries hand count. Germany, with over 65 5 million citizens, they hand count. They engage 650,000 6 of their citizens to be part of that process. But it 7 works. 8 Now, Chapter 65 has been around since '85, 9 1985. And you know, granted with the convenience of 10 electronic tabulating systems, hand counting continued 11 in only a few small counties and municipalities, like 12 our neighbor Fredericksburg, and it has been, of course, 13 used in contested elections to recount ballots. But 14 with growing concerns about vulnerability of the 15 electronic voting systems, it is seeing a resurgence. 16 And, in fact, the Gillespie County Republican party 17 executive committee just passed a Resolution to hand 18 count paper ballots and use poll books, paper poll 19 books, in their '24 Republican primary. 20 So we did put together a Chapter 65 hand 21 count demo. A team got together. We made a video of it. 22 We actually counted 150 ballots. These were based on 23 the 2022 November general election. There were 20 races 24 on the ballots. On three pages. Had to be counted. It 25 took some time. Two hours and 14 minutes. And that 188 1 works out to basically 67 ballots per hour. But in the 2 end, all three tally sheets were in agreement showing a 3 hundred percent accuracy. And you can watch that video. 4 There's a link to it there. See me if you want that 5 link, if you haven't already seen it. 6 All right. So the proposal was to use hand 7 counting in November. And this was kind of the basis 8 for that proposal. Just looking at cost and what it 9 would take. Because we did expect a relatively low 10 turnout. Probably only about 10,000 ballots or less. 11 And there's only 14 races to count. 12 For an early voting Judge, they're going to 13 know how many votes they have to count so they can make 14 an estimate of the tallies, update much better to 15 estimate the tallies the teams required. 16 And the point has already been made about 17 once the voting count starts, no election personnel may 18 leave the counting location until the polls close. 19 So in many cases it's preferable to start 20 counting in the middle of the afternoon, say 2:00 p.m., 21 And put enough tally teams onto it so that they only 22 have to work for five hours. There is no limit to the 23 number of tally teams. You just have to have adequate 24 space. Assuming 10,000 ballots will be cast with 25 absentee and early voting ballots, about 70 percent of 189 1 that like we had in the '22 general election in 2 November, that's 67 ballots per hour, which is very 3 conservative for a 14-race ballot. That would probably 4 be two sides of one paper. And it'll take 149 hours to 5 count. That's based on one tally team. Of course, if 6 we put 30 tally teams on it, 120 people, we would 7 complete the count in about five hours on election day. 8 That does exclude poll watchers. Poll watchers don't 9 get paid. 10 So the 21 tally teams and central voting 11 could finish basically by 7:00 p.m., and this election 12 would only have four election day polling locations and 13 there would certainly be better tally team utilization 14 efficiency. It would only take nine tally teams there. 15 So the cost. Next, please. 16 And the SOS, Secretary of State, has 17 confirmed that clerks and judges have to be paid. They 18 do require training and there may be additional -- that 19 training program is online and can be done at their own 20 pace, but additional training would be required for by 21 the entity authorizing the election. And it's 22 certainly -- while it's easy, it is important that the 23 tally teams undergo some training and have a practice 24 round prior to election day, just to ensure a smooth 25 time and accurate vote counting. 190 1 All right. So basically 120 people times 2 five hours, 1250 an hour, that's 7,500. You've got some 3 cost to print tally sheets. 50 bucks. It looks like we 4 might need another 31 additional ballot boxes. They're 5 kind of expensive. We do have 49. But to eliminate 6 some of the concerns about chain of custody, they have 7 to stay locked when you transfer one box and put ballots 8 into the next before the ballots go into box number 9 three. All that's very clear on the video how that 10 would work. Anyway, that cost could add another almost 11 $5,000.00. 12 Security checks. I'll just assume we'll go 13 ahead and check 300 people at two bucks a person. 14 That's what HR pays. So that's another 600 bucks. So 15 all in all -- and, of course, that would give us a much 16 larger pool of election judges and clerks since all of 17 the people tallying votes have to be judges or clerks. 18 That would add $13,000.00 to the cost of the November 19 election. 20 Next please. 21 But the real benefit of hand counting is to 22 eventually try to get rid of the machines and do away 23 with all the costs associated and the cost to count a 24 primary or general election would be between 18 thousand 25 and 21, depending on the actual turnout, and a primary 191 1 runoff would be about $9,000.00, depending on the actual 2 number of races. Hence, we wouldn't have that many 3 people in a runoff. 4 So all in all, if we can avoid using 5 machines, we can save around $85,000 per year in capital 6 lease payments, and the annual software upgrades and 7 maintenance and, of course, we could also avoid future 8 equipment upgrades. Bob Reeves has mentioned that would 9 cost $246,000 to upgrade the equipment that we currently 10 have. And the point's already been made that the 11 expenditures would stay in the local community and 12 benefit our people. 13 So next. 14 And this gets into the legal issue with the 15 Hart Verity System. And I think it's, as someone 16 pointed out, yes, it's a technicality but that's the way 17 the law works. We don't have a proper EAC chairman on 18 the test laboratory certificate of accreditation. And 19 in the absence of that, you're using a system that 20 technically is illegal. And what that does is it sets 21 the stage for election result compensation, lawsuits, 22 and all kind of additional problems because of that. 23 Anyone using equipment that's not legal runs additional 24 risks. So -- but that decision is based with this 25 Court. And it's why I voted against adopting the Hart 192 1 Verity System earlier. So that's kind of the 2 presentation. I'll leave it at that. 3 JUDGE KELLY: Very well. 4 COMMISSIONER PACES: That wasn't too 5 painful. 6 JUDGE KELLY: That was about 11 minutes. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Could I have one quick 8 comment? 9 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Oh, I'm going to have 10 something. 11 COMMISSIONER PACES: Bring 'em on. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe more than one. 13 Just one thing about the -- Commissioner Paces' 14 reference to the Court Order that I did vote with back 15 in April that was to the legislature about making some 16 changes. That Court Order did not include hand 17 counting. It did not include getting rid of our 18 machines. Much of what was on there was -- 19 COMMISSIONER PACES: It did have hand 20 counting. It's there. So you could verify it. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: To verify. That's 22 like -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To verify. Not to do 24 it. Is what I read. Anyway, much of what was done by 25 the legislature was -- off of this was done. Some of it 193 1 wasn't. And I think in this negotiation the legislature 2 like frequently happens, but I think what they did was 3 good, and there -- my understanding is that, you know, 4 there will be paper ballots. The only exception I think 5 is going to be going into the disabled people. 6 So with that comment, I think it's been a 7 very -- you know, I won't say that I'll thank 8 Commissioner Paces for bringing this whole topic up, but 9 I think it has been worthwhile and good for us to really 10 look at it. I'm glad the community got involved. 11 I kinda go back to the -- I think the first 12 speaker was Greg Shrader and I agree with a lot of what 13 he said. I don't think there's a problem in Kerr 14 County. I never have thought there was a problem in 15 Kerr County. I think it's worth looking at. I think 16 there are problems in areas, certain states, certain 17 cities. But all I vote for is Kerr County. And I'm in 18 favor of the current system. 19 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: I want everybody to 20 understand election integrity is way up here with me. I 21 can remember right before the 2020 election, I went to a 22 meet and greet for Chip Roy. And that was my question 23 to him. How he felt election integrity was going into 24 the 2020 election. And he didn't really talk a whole 25 lot. But then we had the election. And there was a lot 194 1 of irregularities then, and a lot of us think there's 2 some shady stuff going on. You watch 2000 mules, you 3 feel even more so. 4 So it's an important topic with me. I 5 think -- but I still think any election reform should be 6 at the state level, and I've said this three or four 7 times already. For Kerr County votes to not be 8 contributed or recognized is because of larger cities or 9 counties shenanigans, Houston, Dallas, those type 10 counties. There's always some questionable stuff going 11 on there. Nobody said there was questionable stuff 12 here. That I know of. 13 Regarding the petition that went around. As 14 soon as I saw the title of it, I thought oh gosh. 15 You're pitting two elected's against one another. I 16 think it should have just been -- and he's probably 17 going to throw something at me, support Bob Reeves and 18 retain Bob Reeves is what I would have liked to have 19 seen. But I didn't like pitting two people against one 20 another. So, that's my two cents for now. 21 COMMISSIONER PACES: As I pointed out, it's 22 nothing between Bob and I. I, too, have full respect 23 for him. 24 COMMISSIONER BELEW: The people that have 25 tried to make it about personalities were in error or 195 1 intentionally misleading people. Today, not a person 2 spoke that I didn't think had a good valid point on 3 something. A lot of you made the same point in 4 different ways. There was a lot of talk about having 5 full confidence in our system. And that's what I think 6 everybody wants. You want to have valid elections. 7 Anybody try to go to DPS this last week? Do 8 you know what happened at DPS? They were closed all 9 week. You know why? Computer error. So I've worked 10 with computers since the mid 80's, since before most 11 people had to, when the floppy disk actually flopped 12 when you did this. And you had to deliver it across 13 town to somebody. And you didn't have e-mail and 14 internet and all that stuff. 15 And I've seen what a computer can do and 16 what the limitations are. And how you can work on 17 something, a lot of it, a lot of problems we have with 18 computers, just like a hand count would be is human 19 error. Much of it is human error. Garbage in, garbage 20 out is the old saying with computers. 21 But the DPS, that's a statewide 22 organization. Shutdown for a week. You couldn't get a 23 driver's license. You couldn't go in there and do 24 anything you needed to do. And guess what? There was 25 no backup. Nobody there could walk over to a little 196 1 file cabinet and look for something. No index cards. 2 No nothing like that. Because of that, and all of this 3 whole thing we've been talking about, my preference is 4 to be to split the difference, and have everybody in the 5 County vote on paper ballots. Only the handicap folks 6 who actually need it vote on the machines. You would 7 always retain the paper. You can always do your 8 recount. It's the way we do a recount already. 9 But if all of us vote on paper ballots and 10 we save those paper ballots, if there's ever a question 11 we have it there. And if we wanted to periodically, we 12 could just audit the system because we'd have everything 13 there we need. I went through a recount. This is 14 anecdotal, it doesn't mean anything to anybody but me 15 and my opponent. 16 In the recount I watched how the process 17 goes. And I watched how the human error part of it 18 could go. I also saw those ballots that are spit out by 19 the computer. I didn't like the looks of those things 20 near as much. You get four counts per page on those. 21 So there's a lot of reasons why I don't trust that and I 22 do trust paper. You can hold the paper. You can see 23 it. You can save it and you can count it. So if I had 24 my way, we'd scan all the votes on paper. If somebody 25 needs the machine, they can go use the computer machine. 197 1 You save those on a thumb drive, and that would be -- 2 that's my answer to it. 3 We're not here to discuss what my answer is 4 to it, but I'm just telling you to give it -- give that 5 some thought. That really would be, I think, the best 6 way. You don't throw the baby out with the bath and you 7 don't have a boogie man under the -- under the bed. 8 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: At least three of us 9 in this room have been involved in a runoff. I mean 10 not -- 11 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Recount. 12 JUDGE KELLY: Recounts. 13 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Recount. And it 14 worked. 15 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. So that gave me 16 extra confidence in the system. And I served as a 17 Precinct Judge in Montgomery County back in the '80s, 18 and there was -- it was real easy work because there was 19 only about four Republicans in -- in that County and I 20 was one of them. So we got finished counting before 21 everybody else and went down to the Courthouse with 22 our -- our little box. So I don't like the full -- full 23 on machine computer voting. 24 And what has been addressed here is not an 25 issue with Bob Reeves and somebody attacking Bob Reeves; 198 1 it's the machines that people don't trust. You don't 2 know what happens to your vote anymore than I do when 3 that vote goes in that machine and when it -- when it's 4 counted. We don't know what happens. None of us does. 5 It's like having a junk drawer. You don't know what's 6 in your junk drawer even at home. You sure don't know 7 what's in that computer. So that's all I've got to say. 8 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: But we still have to 9 have a hard copy. 10 COMMISSIONER BELEW: I would like to have a 11 hard copy, yes. 12 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: We still do. 13 COMMISSIONER BELEW: Yeah. For the recount. 14 That's right. 15 COMMISSIONER HARRIS: Right. 16 COMMISSIONER PACES: But we should go to 17 hand marked. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we are. That's 19 what's been said we are, I thought. 20 COMMISSIONER PACES: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER BELEW: But I'd like to see all 22 paper. 23 COMMISSIONER PACES: You can -- 24 (Talking over.) 25 JUDGE KELLY: Okay. Too many of us talking 199 1 at once. It's time to wrap this thing up. We have a 2 motion and a second to approve and authorize the use of 3 the current voting system. Those in favor say aye. 4 Opposed? 5 COMMISSIONER PACES: Aye. 6 JUDGE KELLY: Four, one. And with that, we 7 are adjourned. 8 * * * * * * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 200 1 STATE OF TEXAS * 2 COUNTY OF KERR * 3 I, DEBRA ELLEN GIFFORD, Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, and Official 5 Court Reporter in and for Kerr County, do hereby certify 6 that the above and foregoing pages contain and comprise 7 a true and correct transcription of the proceedings had 8 in the above-entitled Regular Commissioners' Court. 9 Dated this the 22nd day of September, A.D. 10 2023. 11 12 /s/DEBRA ELLEN GIFFORD Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 No. 953 Expiration Date 04/30/2025 14 * * * * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25